Messages

This is maybe a bit weird... I was wondering if anyone else has these sort of nightmares.

I have nightmares almost every night, but they aren't violent. That is, they're so extremely violent that they flip and turn into completely non-violent nightmares. It's as though that's the ultimate cruelty my mind can make up... if that makes sense. In my nightmares my abusers are kind. They're considerate, they treat me humanely, look me in the eye, show concern and empathy. Aaargh... dreadful nightmares. They're so much worse than a violent dream. I mean after all, violence is nothing new. Violence would leave me indifferently thinking "that's it? Waking hours are worse. Pft" instead, my mind keeps showing me imaginary kind versions of my abusers.

I was wondering if you'd ever experienced this too. Though I hope not, they make me shudder.

Just my two cents... about Sam Vaknin and narcissistic traits in abuse survivors.

When I started looking for information about narcissists and emotional abuse I looked him up, and I felt really uncomfortable for a few reasons. First is the glaring contradiction in what he says: I'm a self-absorbed narcissist, and look, I'm here to help you! Oh, c'mon... if you're the first, you're not the second. If you're the second, then you're not the first. Make up your mind, they're mutually exclusive. I think it's best to stay away, whether he fits the diagnostic criteria for a narcissist or not. He can flunk every personality test and I'd still think someone who wants to be seen in that light is not a safe person for me, full stop.

Another reason I felt uncomfortable is how cynical it seems. A person like that "giving advice" to people hurt by narcissists? Nah. Best stay away. I wouldn't come near such a person with a very veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long stick.

But I've been abused the world over by psychopaths and narcissists, so I have no soft spot for them. A few years ago I may have found what he thinks fascinating, I'd really want to "get him" but I've changed, I'm really interested in what they *do* because I sincerely want people to be safe. I want them to not use others and no one to be hurt. But picking their brains... nope. I'd much rather pick the brains of empathic, kind people.

As for narcissistic traits in empathic people who were abused, I don't know enough about it but my personal feeling is we can sometimes adopt narcissistic behaviors because it's what we saw and imitated in childhood, but that doesn't make us narcissists. For me, my emotional baseline (even when I'm really anxious and miserable) is empathic. Using people makes me very uneasy and if I do it I feel very bad. Hence, not a narcissist at all. It's the motivation that counts.

Hope this doesn't complicate things even further.

Hi Traveller 1, welcome

I'm new to learning about c-ptsd and it's been an overwhelming ride in the past month or two. I've been so used to emotional numbness, and now memories come back and I feel more than I've allowed myself to feel for decades. It's not easy, but it's so much better than being locked in an endless loop of helpless flashbacks. I say, bring it on!

I guess numbing never really protects us from pain, because it fails when the pain gets too overwhelming. So I hope to slowly learn to feel, like you, without needing permission. Sounds like you're on a very good road.

Hi Recoveree and welcome!

I've been through similar things, I wish I didn't understand where you're coming from but I do. I know what it's like to be treated this way. I hope you put it further behind you with each passing day.

Hi Manda,

I can relate, and it's a challenge... because we're human so we don't always perform like a perfect machine. Wanting to be one is unrealistic, but I constantly catch myself wanting to be one none the less

I grew up having to perform non stop, never allowed to be a kid, and it took its toll. I wasn't allowed friends (so when I was too young to lie and hide my friends I made up elaborate imaginary friends), toys, candy, private possessions, games, fun, joy, none of these words mean anything to me. I learned to perform to specs, and obviously I was never good enough. So I grew up knowing how to always feel I had to do something, and expect to fail no matter what. Now as an adult whenever I just sit for a minute with nothing to do, I feel so guilty! Which works very badly because I'm physically disabled, so I sit a lot. Oh and heaven forbid if I work hard on something and it ends up just okay, I feel dreadful. Then I'm convinced I don't deserve to exist.

I haven't been able to break the cycle yet. I'm new to learning about c-ptsd but I think it depends a great deal on your circumstances. Like you, I was traumatized in childhood and also adulthood. It keeps going now, most of my abusers never stopped. It's a heavy burden, I see no way to build much self esteem this way, I just fend off pain. But if you're in a safe environment now, I think if I were you I might work on learning about c-ptsd and let self esteem build quietly in the background. I'd reconnect daily with my values and do things I'd think would be really worthy if others did them, and I'd maybe let that quietly simmer too.

I totally agree with what Contessa said
I don't always have the strength to be that spontaneous when I feel cornered but it's really good advice. It works.

I remembered something today that I keep thinking about. But it could be pretty triggering, so:

*Triggering*

When I was small I had read a book about the holocaust, and it said in there that sometimes in the ghetto, when jews were hiding and about to be discovered by the german soldiers and their baby cried, they were so terrified of being discovered that they could hurt the baby to keep it quiet. For me, it was such an immense, immeasurable revelation and consolation to read that passage in the book. It was just a story trying to describe a terrible time in history for the purpose of teaching history, but to me it was like a lifeline. I kept returning to the library to read that passage over and over. It was like medicine. I kept thinking "oh, so it happened to others. So what happens to me really exists. I'm not the only one. It's a real thing."

*End of triggering stuff*

What a weird, twisted thing to be consoled by. Like the darkest things felt safe, whereas happiness feels unsafe.

Does anyone else feel this way? Did you ever find comfort in horror stories as a child?

This makes a lot of sense to me. I was traumatized in the womb even, before I was born. So there's no "me" that's trauma free. No good memories to go back to, no "me" that could have grown up to be a different, trauma free person. 

I believe c-ptsd can be greatly improved if conditions are right: being safe in the present, having support, 'etc... and even then it's hard work. I think of myself as a tortured person.

Also not forgiving makes sense to me too. I don't hate, I don't hold grudges or seek revenge but I don't forgive certain things that I feel are unforgivable. Extreme cruelty is unforgivable. Forgiving it would minimize and normalize what I have to endure and I won't do that. I'll have compassion but I won't forgive.

Hi Olga, welcome!

I'm new here too.
I'm glad you finally got the correct diagnosis. I wish I could say it's unusual to be misdiagnosed but I'd imagine it's sadly very common. I was misdiagnosed too, and it was so harmful I didn't go to therapy again so I don't have an official diagnosis. I now finally know what I have thanks to excellent books, and these forums help a great deal, just like Blueberry said. It's very powerful for me to read what people post here and realize I'm not the crazy freak of a weirdo that I thought I was, I just have c-ptsd.

(Well... I could also still be a crazy weirdo AND have c-ptsd but that's beside the point   )

There's a lot of cultural trauma where I'm originally from, too. It affects generation after generation and I'm so sorry you had to go through it too.

I don't know how to accept affection from others. Or from myself, but I can give it to other people so I use that to "trick" my mind into softening around self compassion. Mindfulness really helps me too, it's the only thing that calms down my hypervigilant nervous system. Meds never helped much. I do it as medicine, when I'm in too much emotional pain I breathe and watch my body.

It can be hard at first because it takes about 5-10 minutes to start to calm down but it's worth it, if I can wait it gets better after that. Then I name what I'm feeling as it is, without judgment. Without wanting to feel better. If I did it right now I'd probably say to myself "I'm feeling some anxiety. I'm feeling a little bit of curiosity. I'm feeling some empathy. I'm feeling very tired. I'm feeling some self hatred. Some fear" 'etc.

Plus I focus on compassion for others. I think of a particular person I know is in some pain, and then I try to make the person more and more vague. I think "it doesn't matter whose pain I'm seeing, it's the pain itself that I wish I could take away from them. Could be anybody's pain. Even mine. Pain is pain. Feeling is feeling. Everyone would want to avoid pain and feel relaxed."

Self compassion is far too much for me too. I totally agree it's a skill. Maybe one day!

Thanks, that was really interesting. Got 101, but I didn't expect any lower... realistically...

I wish there was a question added there that would have said something like "I have some doubt about my self blame, I sometimes wonder if I'm less to blame than I feel I am." Because the feeling is 100% convincing and powerful, but logically I can kind of understand I'm probably not 100% to blame. Logically, maybe just 99.999999999999999% is on me?

Makes perfect sense to me.

I doubt it's very tidy and self contained at first. Hopefully later on, when we have more self awareness and we recognize a flashback for what it is. But maybe at first we're just going to jump from flashback to flashback?

What usually happens to me is something triggers me into it, it can be anything really (a thought, a word, anything) and then I just start jumping from flashback to flashback, like a chain reaction in my mind. One ignites the next and it can go on for a long time like this. Before I started reading about trauma I called flashbacks my "waves of shame" or "waves of my mistakes". It wouldn't be just one, each one would bring along its whole extended family. I could be stuck in a wave of shame for months with endless flashbacks all triggering each other and keeping the whole thing going.

At least, that's what it feels like to me. Not sure this helps, but I totally hear you. You're not alone... and I'm so sorry you have to feel this too.

"Cumulative" is perfect. It makes much better sense to me than "complex", it requires less explaining. Plus they're both C so the c-ptsd can stay in place.

Not sure about short term / long term, because ptsd can be very long term in result though the cause is short term. So if it's from the viewpoint of the cause then c-ptsd is more long term, if it's result then I sadly come from a country with a lot of ptsd and I see people struggling with it for life.

I have so much to learn about trauma but for now I get the feeling the main difference between ptsd and c-ptsd may be that c-ptsd goes much more deeply into our sense of self. We lose who we were, or never even got to be in the first place. We're not traumatized because something happened to us, we're traumatized because we've been taught, by people we trusted, to become our own worst enemy.

The way I imagine it is as though ptsd is on a certain volume of trauma, and c-ptsd turns ptsd up and makes it even more powerful. Yay...

Sounds like there maybe should be a new type of abuse recognized: therapy abuse. Pay to get emotional abuse with a twist!

Years ago I had a therapist who was a psychopath. She's sadly known for having "victims"... she prides herself on not being for the feint hearted but there's a bid circle of wounded clients all around her. Still people go to her. It breaks my heart to think of it.

Makes sense these sort of people would be attracted to professions where they can feed of the suffering of others and cause even more suffering. I'm so, so, so glad you got out of there.

Unconditional hatred! That's it! Exactly, that's a perfect description of what it feels like to me too. It's what we were fed till we internalized it.

I don't know how to receive love, I can't imagine being lovable, but nothing would make me happier than giving it to you. So here's a lot of love from me to you, without you ever having to do anything or be anything to deserve it. Just because you're here, that's enough of a reason.

(Please don't ask me to imagine doing it for myself though. C.a.n.'t....t.o.o.....h.a.r.d     )