Scripture messing up my mind (by proxy)

Started by Dutch Uncle, September 16, 2015, 04:44:20 PM

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Dutch Uncle

#15
Quote from: woodsgnome on October 22, 2015, 02:56:36 PM
The psych crowd has joined the chorus--they say they're science-based, but reach the same conclusions: "you must forgive".
I have been encouraged by so many articles, by psychs and/or others, that I don't have to forgive others.

QuoteI usually hate the context of "just let it go", maybe "just let it be" is more apt. It's no easier but makes more sense.
I like this. "just let it be" seems also something that actually can be attained, unlike "let it go". A goal that actually can be reached, instead of a goal that seems to be always just out of reach, no matter how close I get to it (or "how far away I get from it" seems to be more grammatically/linguistically correct in this case).
QuoteForgiveness is taught as a doing, but maybe it's just a state of accepting what was, and what is--now.
is in that same realm, I think.

QuoteEven self-forgiveness seems kind of odd. What's there to forgive? That you got in their way?
Since I just started to try practicing self-forgiveness, I can't say (yet) what it is. But at the moment it's more in the direction of: "I forgive myself they got in my way. And I don't have to forgive them for it, but I could perhaps forgive me.
Yeah, that is practically "there's nothing to forgive in the first place.", but since I have to deal with people who keep getting into my way, who make no amends, no apologies and therefore I cannot forgive them (or: They can't "let it be"?), I better focus on 'forgiving me', and "let it be".
Or somesuch.
I try not to find reasons too much for why I should forgive me, but to do it 'unreasonably'. If that makes any sense.  ;D
Non-cognitive.


Thanks so much for your input, woodsgnome.  :hug:

Edited to add: The day before yesterday I wrote this note and hung it on the wall of my toilet (So I have the chance to see it every day):
Quote"I am going to forgive myself for all the crap I'm in. Both for what I have played a part in, and for what I have played no part in at all."

Dutch Uncle

#16
I have been wondering if this is the right place to post it, but after some deliberation with myself, I think it is.
Then, when opening this section I wondered if I should have posted this in "Taking back my Faith", but I've chosen to leave that thread a more generic one that addresses healing from Spiritual Abuse, rather than one for spilling my personal experiences with it.

So here it goes: it's pretty hard...

***possible triggers. I don't want to spoil anybody's upcoming religious holidays***

The other day I got a letter from my dad.
I had feared it was a Flying Monkey action. Thankfully it was not.
But it is unsettling in it's own way.

A paragraph in it that touches on this section's subject is the following.
My dad, in his 80's and thus approaching his end, is becoming increasingly a Man-of-God.
For a while now he is telling me he feels the presence of God, and since a year or so he keeps telling me he speaks with God.
I let him, and congratulate him on his joy in this.
Now he has written me: (translated)
"More and more I feel a good connection with God, without all sorts of dogma's and without all sorts of human/peoples attachments."

This hurts.
On one hand because for me personally human attachments (as in: connection to people) is so important to/in my personal life. This is the part that relates to the "Taking back my Faith" I mentioned earlier.

On the other hand, and this is much more hurtful for me:
It signifies that my dad is drifting farther and farther away from me. He is giving God ever fuller attention now, and the less human 'interference' he can get with that, the better he feels about it. The more praise he gives himself for achieving that. The more sense of achievement he apparently experiences.
That bothers me.
It seems pretty clear, outspoken (literally as well as metaphorically), that dad's aim is to become one with God and only God, even before he will go meet his maker. And every successful step he is making on this journey he has set out for himself is shared with me, and he celebrates his achievements.
And with every step he takes I get rubbed in that God is his most precious contact here on earth, and should be expanded upon with ever increasing investment of time and effort.
And I'm being shown my place.
A lowly human that cannot contribute/be part of anything devine or simply can be worth his/hers salt.

I'm reminded of this quote by Maya Angelou:
"When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time."

And so I'm faced with my father's explicit intention to now work with great effort and determination to take the 'human factor' out, and turn solely to his God.
He is abandoning me.
And all I can do is to watch him go.

Sad. But this is the reality I have to face.
I'll have to forgive myself for loosing my dad, through no fault of my own.
I will hug myself. :hug:

NB: My dad is (what I think is  ;) ) a Calvinist, which is exemplified by the fact that he corrects himself (or me) if he tells a story about something "nice" he has experienced.
"Ehrm no, it wasn't "nice", I don't like "nice". It was "Good". This is not a one off now and then, nope: it's a reiterated matter of principle. :doh:

eva

Dear Dutch Uncle thank you so much for this thread and theme and the depth and breadth of it. Be prepared for the registered number of times this thread has been viewed to go up, rapidly, inn days and weeks to come - as I may have to click on here a number of times and read and re-read.

You have obviously put so much thought, work, reflection into your own process and insights here. Please know how valuable this will be to many others who have been subjected to such weirdnesses.
I am actually crying right now (um, don't worry, I am ok, it's just healing tears) -

POSSIBLE TRIGGERS below
I won't go into details right now but I was subjected to some very confusing religious distortions which have lead me to wonder, at my lowest moments, whether I had been cursed, voodoo'd, hex or whatever (no, cognitively I do not believe this and am rooted in reality: I am it in the sense of an EF at my lowest moments. especially if I have had poor sleep. it is very frightening)


ok, well also thank you as your thread has checked me from being possible on the verge of being a little over-enthusiastic with my own spiritual beliefs, in my support offered to a vulnerable person. This person is feeling very shaky right now and lonely, and I shared in conversation some of the hope I gain from my own spiritual path. I think I may have been on the verge of offering too much: being worried about her during the xmas period. I will be aware to hold back a bit and go easy. I have asked her if I had shared too much, and she said, no, it's fine, it's interesting etc. but thank you for helping to raise my awareness

thank you also for the discussions here about forgiveness (sure it's a general spiritual principal for me - but not a stick with which I wish to beat myself or anyone else) I loved your question "what the heck is forgiveness anyway?"  I recently asked someone if forgiveness was an emotion or an attitude or an action.....  if it is an emotion, it cannot, therefore be a permanent state of affairs. necessarily. I may forgive someone (as I have: my choice, not my duty - and for my sake, for God's Sake!!) and then wake one morning in a full-on EF, filled with rage at them. does the rage then delete the previous forgiveness not necessarily. there are so many layers to our held feelings.... 

heck I don't know if that makes any sense, I am just really wanting to add to the sense of exploration and that we do not have to be oblige to create our own scriptural/scripted final answers...  mostly I just wanted to say thanks and I really wish you ever deepening peace in yourself in your own process of self-forgiveness.

t

Dutch Uncle

#18
Thanks. Always great to learn people can relate.  :hug:

Quote from: Yvette on December 24, 2015, 04:12:35 AM
I loved your question "what the heck is forgiveness anyway?"
I still don't really know, but recently I heard (or read) someone say that one knew (s)he had forgiven when the desire for revenge had passed.
I kind of liked that. And I think there is at least a kernel of thrush in it. Anger is an issue with most cPTSD-ers it seems: we were never allowed to express it. So admitting we (very Very VERY secretly) want revenge is an even bigger hurdle to take.
But perhaps we could take that up in one of the "forgiveness threads"  ;D
(Do we have to forgive? and Forgiveness)
Thanks a bunch!  :thumbup:

edit: formatting

V

there is nothing to forgive ... what you continue to feel is the shame and the blame and the horror that was imposed on you by others - things circle in our heads unnecessarily - so much waste of living to relive arrows from the past

I stand in front of the mirror and tell the world that I am here, , I am good, I make mistakes, I am human, I belong, I have a right to live just as any other soul, I will learn, I will grow, I will understand, and I will no longer let my parents' or anyone else shame me and blame me for being inoccuously mortal

peace!


V

age 7 my narcissistic mother told me I was evil to the core, she could see it in my eyes ... hmmm ... well i could only turn the other cheek so many times - after that I shut her out and she hated me for that for the rest of her life - for not being able to get inside me and manipulate me and make me serve her which was her ill - she knew I knew she wasn't right - i fought hard and i have scars but i survived not knowing how - grace I suppose ... she would abuse me stilli if she knew that god had saved me as I chose the light at age 7 rather than stay in and around her darkness to be sucked in and never see light again

i was 37 before all the lifetime of searching and reading and trying to understand started to jell into sense and I was then able to finally walk away completely - no regrets at 20 years later and present I sometimes grieve for so much time lost but i am overtly grateful for what I have now and continue to improve on for the remainder of my life

I have me, it's just me unless I let others in and around - only the good ones - no more drama and stress; my body can't take it ... my soul years for the beauty of nature, the goodness of life and those who are open to wonder ... beauty is not always the truth but truth to me is always beautiful

trust in yourself and what you know is right and wrong and forget trying to make sense of the wrong that was imposed on you - it is their journey - you have your own ...

Dutch Uncle

Thanks for sharing that V.

What a horrid abuse you suffered. It's all we can do as kids no?: Shutting them out. Retreating in ourselves. Putting up big concrete solid walls. I did. So perhaps I'm reading more in your story than is warranted.

Quote from: V on December 24, 2015, 04:54:30 PM
she hated me for that for the rest of her life - for not being able to get inside me and manipulate me and make me serve her which was her ill
This resonates strongly with me. A quiet but firm resistance to her efforts. I've just started (a few years now) to openly resist her efforts. I'm getting verbal about what I actually do in those moments, instead of doing it in the privacy of my own mind.
Outwards is better, even though it means going through the pain, instead of shutting the pain out.

Quote from: V on December 24, 2015, 04:54:30 PM
no regrets at 20 years later and present I sometimes grieve for so much time lost but i am overtly grateful for what I have now and continue to improve on for the remainder of my life
That's beautiful. I cheer for ya!

Quotetrust in yourself and what you know is right and wrong and forget trying to make sense of the wrong that was imposed on you - it is their journey - you have your own ...
Thanks.
And welcome to OOTS, V.  :hug:

V

thanks for the post and for the welcome Dutch Uncle - I hope you had a good holiday time -

not sure how you copy the quotes to respond to but : "This resonates strongly with me. A quiet but firm resistance to her efforts. I've just started (a few years now) to openly resist her efforts. I'm getting verbal about what I actually do in those moments, instead of doing it in the privacy of my own mind. Outwards is better, even though it means going through the pain, instead of shutting the pain out."

yes I do think we must try hard to detach and go through the pain once we flow into adulthood to form our own self finally but it is very hard after all that sowing being done in bad soil - but try to just keep on being and finding your true self - after all there is only one you and whatever your thoughts on any matter it is truly your thought, your opinion, you are entitled to that and no one has to agree :) and you don't have to agree with no one :)

and although I understand about shutting the pain out, try to reverse it and "don't let the pain in" anymore - don't accept that garbage into yourself - you have enough to deal with that you don't need more ... for me then it became my struggle for survival and there was nothing left to feel for her - I surely wasn't able to figure her out - no one else could either so I didn't feel like it was my task in life - I just wanted to get away - far away - even though mentally that took alot longer than I ever expected ...  how does one figure out what a person who isn't right is trying to say or why they do what they do ? just get out man and save yourself lol - not funny because it's been so long since I've been there - but the more I read and write the more I see that I was never alone and that this happens so much more than we know ... so it's not just me, or you -

she just happened to be my mother, just an ordinary woman, who met a man, conceived and had children ... and so the story goes that we are just happenstance indivuduals involuntarily subjected to trying to grow up under these people ... see, not every woman should have children - looking back and knowing now what was missing for me for a long time was my father's input ... oh yes well she had a nervous breakdown and had to go to the mental hospital right after I married her and brought her to my hometown to live (now Dad, wasn't that your first clue ? but you had to go on and have children after that) ... and he didn't stand up to her so how could we as children stand up for ourselves to her if he didn't -

see the worst kind of narcissists are one the ones where those around them enable them to just continue their plight - Dad just told me a few years ago that he was afraid to come home from work sometimes - he was afraid of what she had done to us that day while he was away ... oh but later on it was ok that he was able to just walk away and he left us with her anyway - to suffer even more as the worst yet to come was after he divorced her ... so suffering from abandonment from the father was just another block on top of the pile ...

we all deal differently with trauma - we make it on different levels it seems - I see that with my siblings - as my sister screamed at me and said "why can't you love our mother as I do" and I replied "I do love our mother but don't let anyone else treat me like that - and I won't let her do that just because she gave birth to me"

got to run for now ... keep the faith!  V

stacey

I've often wondered how Calvinists reconcile the whole forgiveness thing. If God is going to send some people to * forever, why bother forgiving others at all? If that's the god of our universe, why not just become a madman and shoot up people in post offices? I called myself a Christian for about 18 years and questioned the character of this kind of god from the beginning and came to the end calling myself a Zen Universalist Christian in the end :) I remember reading someone somewhere defining forgiveness as taking your boot off the neck of the person who did you wrong - being able to wish them well without wishing them ill. If God can't get past his own enormous ego to do that for his paltry creation then why does he expect them to? :D And if that's his character then he certainly doesn't deserve to have his name capitalised, haha.

I reckon all the different gods we have in our different religions are extraterrestrials. I like this idea, i find it very captivating! And then underneath that is the uncreated, the source of all who is pure love and beauty. I do feel I've had times where I've tuned into something like that, which we're all connected to. If anything, it's a nice comforting thought at times, and it would be nice to think that your dad is basking in that.

Dutch Uncle

Quote from: stacey on January 05, 2016, 03:04:04 AM
it would be nice to think that your dad is basking in that.
He isn't.

While my dad is on his way to devoid his life of anything human, as this only "clutters" the true vision of 'god', I have taken humans at the center stage. Who at a time (well, at many a time) wrote a work of fiction.
It's a pity my dad has chosen to make it his life's achievement to 'declutter' this fiction of any human element.
Including me.

If anything, my dad is trying to be the extra-terrestrial.
And the really sad thing, from my subjective experience, is that he is succeeding.

stacey

Oh, okay, that's very sad :(

It sounds very complicated. You said you think he might have Aspergers. That makes it even harder to bridge any distance that might be there. My partner is an Aspie, I suspect.

Sorry if I said anything to irritate or upset you BTW. I launched into something without knowing you or your father and giving my opinion

Dutch Uncle

It's OK stacey,

At times I just need to reassert, reassure myself. And I might be blunt in doing so.
Yes, the situation is complicated. And my father being a suspected Asperger's is not making it easier, whether my suspicions are right or wrong.

Perhaps, if you want and feel up to it, we could come back to the subject of Asperger's?
There have been other members who have voiced similar suspicions on spouses/parents, but it's not been a subject that has been open to 'discussion'.

I would love to share experiences. Even though it is a tough subject to tackle.
I've made two threads on it, feel free to join either of them. And your equally free not to.

:hug:

Autism (incl. Asperger's) in a parent
Wish me luck. *** possible triggers on Asperger's ***

stacey

Sure. It's complicated and confusing getting your mind around an Aspie. I do wonder if my father is one. It would explain a lot.

Dutch Uncle

#28
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on September 16, 2015, 04:44:20 PM
For one I struggle with two things.
[...]
2.  sometimes I think my father doesn't mind me hanging on The Cross either. Being the Father and all, or being Abraham having to answer God's Call. Sacrificing your Son is a good thing. The Ultimate Goodness even.

So I was reading through my old diaries, in particular the period my parents divorced, some 15 years ago. (so when I was around 35)

In it I found a reference to my dad and Abraham. I guess my suspicion I voiced above has not been of my own making to begin with.

When I left 'home' (around 20 years old), dad was very distant. I felt like I was going out to buy some cigarettes or something, not moving out. As far as I perceived my dad's behavior that day: total disinterest.
I was naturally thrilled about moving out.
Later he told me he had wanted to "bless" me that day. He didn't "bless" me when he told me that either.  ???
He had told me, probably the second time but perhaps even later still, that he had wanted to "bless" me as Abraham had done. It's not really clear what that was supposed to mean, my diary is not specific on that.

I guess, but this is my imagination, that it's supposed to be some sort of blessing after Abraham took his son of the altar slaughtering block, and blessed him with the grace of god or something...

In the end I did receive dad's blessing (I more or less begged for it) and it was a chilling experience. And by chilling I mean: it was cold, distant, detached.
It had nothing to do with me.
I was not being blessed.
A blessing was given.
The blessing was what it was al about, perhaps it was all about my dad giving a blessing.
But it was not about me.
He could have blessed a ram with the same affection, for all practical purposes. (<--- biblical reference intended)

The picture is getting more clear now.
I'm not paranoid. I'm not making this up. It's not that I have a 'rich imagination'. No. It's written in my diaries.
Bless me for having them.  ;D
So I can remember. And mourn.