When you've always felt the abuse but can't prove it (possible triggers)

[Rainydaze]

I was thinking recently of how my N (possibly even psychopathic) father gets away with so much and I've come to the conclusion it's because he never does quite enough to be considered a fully fledged abuser that others can easily condone. For instance, he would make very intimidating threats at me which hinted at violence - "Don't push me or I'll get really nasty" - poke me hard repeatedly in the ribs, push me about or slap me enough to really sting, but never enough to leave a mark that could prove any serious wrongdoing on his part. One particularly confusing moment as a teenager was when he silently sat down next to me, asked for my hand and then proceeded to calmly crush the bone of my hand span between his fingers. I question whether it happened even now because it seems so surreal, but I know it did. I didn't protest at the time which is the weird thing looking back, I guess I just knew he had to get it out of his system and hoped he would leave me alone afterwards. I possibly became more dutiful after that as a survival mechanism. The same goes for possible abuse of a sexual nature (frankly I haven't quite figured out what it was... Emotional? Sexual? Just plain creepy?) He picked the lock on the bathroom door when I was about 12 years of age and to my humiliation let himself in and started washing my hair against my will, but no overtly sexual acts... So how as a kid could I ever prove how wrong, humiliated and violated I felt? Same goes for flippant remarks he would make to me as a teenager about how he was noticing my body changing shape (growing breasts and hips basically). It makes me feel sick thinking about it because I really don't think fathers should be saying such things to their daughters. Again, it's not like he actually touched me or expressed any wish to, so even if I had realized how wrong it was at the time I don't think I could have expressed how self-conscious I felt or how much it damaged my self-esteem.

Everything he did to me was stuff that could be twisted round to not seem so bad. It's only been the last couple of years where I've thought, "Hang on, think about this. I'm very uncomfortable and nervous around this man and hate to be alone around him, I experience major anxiety on a daily basis over tasks others don't give a second thought to, I have zero self esteem and have trouble asserting myself to anyone..." and I've realized how much of an effect it's all had on me. I do think trusting your intuition and listening to your body does help sort out the facts sometimes as the brain desperately tries to deny what happened and certainly in my case I thought I might be overreacting.

Not sure what the point to this post is particularly but it's been on my mind a lot and I wonder whether anyone relates. 

[Blueberry]

Just a quick answer, cuz I really ought to be shutting PC down and going to bed....

Go with your feelings. My T says I don't have to prove anything in a court of law, you probably don't either. The damage is there (e.g. your lack of self-esteem), your memories are there too. I don't believe they link themselves in our brain without cause. IME anyway. Things don't come flying up out of the past for no reason.

He picked the lock on the bathroom door??? That sounds bad enough to me. And flippant remarks? I dealt with a lot of flippancy too. 'Humour' used to hurt somebody else.

TRIGGER WARNING

Sexual abuse starts with looks and remarks. Doesn't have to involve touch. You'll find some posts from me and others in the Sexual Abuse section which explain a bit more of this bent.

So I wrote more than I intended after all. Standing beside you. If it helps and you can accept it, 

[Three Roses]

*TW*

Nope, I don't think you're overreacting. Our intuitions are there for a reason. After I started developing, I got creepy vibes from my dad, but I dismissed it as "just my imagination". Looking back I don't think I imagined it, knowing the things I know now and seeing them thru the eyes of an adult who knows what not to say gives me some insight....

[sanmagic7]

i agree with the others, these people are insidious in knowing just how far to go, when to stop, and give off vibes that can definitely be felt but not seen, heard, or felt by anyone else.  no, no, and no.  what he did was definitely sexual and physically abusive in nature, and you have suffered because of it.

when i found out my ex had been speaking sexually about our daughters, even as grown women, and was finally able to get clarity on it (and linked it to him being a sex addict), i have now labeled him a pervert in my mind.  once i confronted him on things he said/did, and his defense and denial of anything wrong was outstandingly quick and harsh.  i now know it's because he'd probably been doing it all along and i wasn't able to catch it before.

there's nothing i could prove, nothing concrete, but that doesn't make it any less real or horrible.  they've both decided to stay in contact with him for their own reasons, but the thought of him hugging either of them makes my skin crawl.  they both take precautions on how they dress, and are on the lookout for those 'icky' feelings, those sexual vibes that might come off him.  i've told them to leave the room/space if they ever feel that.

what you feel, your anxiety, etc., is very real and for good reason.  i would suggest the same to you as i did to my daughters.  protect yourself, leave if you hear or feel anything from him that isn't ok, if you're in a public place you might want to take a cab home if you came with him in a car. 

all that physical stuff is very real as well.   veiled threats, crushing your hand,  poking, slapping - that's all abuse of the nastiest kind.  i say it's nasty because it's the kind that makes you doubt yourself, so it serves to lay a double whammy on your mind and body. 

blues, i'm really sorry you've had to go thru this, and continue to do so.  i hope you can keep yourself as safe as possible from this predator who's got you in his sights.  that may sound harsh, but i'm sick to death of these people preying on others because of a power trip.  he had the power, he took advantage of it in a horrible way, and you've had to pay the price.  big, safe, gentle hug for you if you like. 

[Candid]

blues_cruise, probably the majority of us here have experienced abuse that wasn't demonstrable to others. That's where all the self-doubt and self-blaming comes in, two things that will make it impossible for us to heal unless and until we receive validation from others that what was done to us was wrong.

I'll give you a handy idea I got from Three Roses. If you saw the things your father did being done to any other child, would you think it was okay or would you know it was wrong?

[Blueberry]

I'll give you a handy idea I got from Three Roses. If you saw the things your father did being done to any other child, would you think it was okay or would you know it was wrong?

That really gets to the point. Very succinct.

blues_cruise, probably the majority of us here have experienced abuse that wasn't demonstrable to others. That's where all the self-doubt and self-blaming comes in, two things that will make it impossible for us to heal unless and until we receive validation from others that what was done to us was wrong.

[Rainydaze]

Thanks for the responses, you've all really helped me feel less alone. 

Just a quick answer, cuz I really ought to be shutting PC down and going to bed....

Go with your feelings. My T says I don't have to prove anything in a court of law, you probably don't either. The damage is there (e.g. your lack of self-esteem), your memories are there too. I don't believe they link themselves in our brain without cause. IME anyway. Things don't come flying up out of the past for no reason.

He picked the lock on the bathroom door??? That sounds bad enough to me. And flippant remarks? I dealt with a lot of flippancy too. 'Humour' used to hurt somebody else.

TRIGGER WARNING

Sexual abuse starts with looks and remarks. Doesn't have to involve touch. You'll find some posts from me and others in the Sexual Abuse section which explain a bit more of this bent.

So I wrote more than I intended after all. Standing beside you. If it helps and you can accept it, 

Thank you. Going no contact with a parent is extreme to other people and I can't possibly explain the situation to anyone who doesn't know anything about CPTSD, the subtle abuse is just too easy to brush off if you haven't been trained to look out for it. I'm guessing this is why flying monkeys are so important to the PD person. I'm entirely going with my gut feelings on this, I just don't feel safe around him anymore even though realistically I'm safer now than I ever was as a child.

I am so creeped out when I think of things like him picking the bathroom door lock because it was so calculated. Realising there probably was sexual undertones to what he was doing (or at least intending to demonstrate power by making me ashamed) is something I'm struggling to understand and come to terms with. I blocked it out for so many years and pretended he was caring really and had changed, when really I think he just stopped doing things like that because I became a woman and he couldn't get away with it anymore. The lack of empathy and any acknowledgement of wrongdoing makes me feel sick. 

*TW*

Nope, I don't think you're overreacting. Our intuitions are there for a reason. After I started developing, I got creepy vibes from my dad, but I dismissed it as "just my imagination". Looking back I don't think I imagined it, knowing the things I know now and seeing them thru the eyes of an adult who knows what not to say gives me some insight....

Thanks Three Roses. I think as children we don't expect this from our parents and therefore brush it off and it's only with an adult pair of eyes that we see how disturbing it really was. It's almost the subtle calculation of it that creeps me out more than anything, like morally and socially they know it's wrong so they up their game and do it anyway as discretely as possible.

i agree with the others, these people are insidious in knowing just how far to go, when to stop, and give off vibes that can definitely be felt but not seen, heard, or felt by anyone else.  no, no, and no.  what he did was definitely sexual and physically abusive in nature, and you have suffered because of it.

when i found out my ex had been speaking sexually about our daughters, even as grown women, and was finally able to get clarity on it (and linked it to him being a sex addict), i have now labeled him a pervert in my mind.  once i confronted him on things he said/did, and his defense and denial of anything wrong was outstandingly quick and harsh.  i now know it's because he'd probably been doing it all along and i wasn't able to catch it before.

there's nothing i could prove, nothing concrete, but that doesn't make it any less real or horrible.  they've both decided to stay in contact with him for their own reasons, but the thought of him hugging either of them makes my skin crawl.  they both take precautions on how they dress, and are on the lookout for those 'icky' feelings, those sexual vibes that might come off him.  i've told them to leave the room/space if they ever feel that.

what you feel, your anxiety, etc., is very real and for good reason.  i would suggest the same to you as i did to my daughters.  protect yourself, leave if you hear or feel anything from him that isn't ok, if you're in a public place you might want to take a cab home if you came with him in a car. 

all that physical stuff is very real as well.   veiled threats, crushing your hand,  poking, slapping - that's all abuse of the nastiest kind.  i say it's nasty because it's the kind that makes you doubt yourself, so it serves to lay a double whammy on your mind and body. 

blues, i'm really sorry you've had to go thru this, and continue to do so.  i hope you can keep yourself as safe as possible from this predator who's got you in his sights.  that may sound harsh, but i'm sick to death of these people preying on others because of a power trip.  he had the power, he took advantage of it in a horrible way, and you've had to pay the price.  big, safe, gentle hug for you if you like. 

Thanks sanmagic. As a child I didn't really dwell on it too long (other than knowing it made me feel 'bad'). As an adult it's all piecing together and I'm realising that it wasn't right. I remember more and more, like when I was 16 and he showed me an explicit, old photo he had taken of my mother when she was a young woman. Not only disrespectful to my mother who passed away a year beforehand, but disgusting to show your own daughter. I can see now how this created shame in me (that photo was never meant for my eyes!), even though I did nothing wrong. When he smears me to people I almost feel like listing all this crazy stuff to see how it would go down in public. I never would, but the temptation to defend myself against the smears is staggering.

Well done on calling your ex out on his inappropriate behaviour towards your daughters, I'm glad they're aware of what to look out for and take precautions. It must be hard for you knowing what his intentions are. I decided to stop contact with my father 4 months ago as, although there has been no sexual or physical threats for years, I had started to become more aware of how the past affected me and couldn't improve my mental state unless I was away from him. It's like I feel the revulsion and fear towards him now that I should have felt when I was living alone with him and was truly in danger, it's just that I was in survival mode at the time and now it's safe enough to return to those feelings and process them. 

Physically my father never punched or caused bruises so in my mind it was never 'that bad'. You're right, I doubted myself and just assumed that in our household it was normal. I remember I once instinctively flinched when he reached past me to get something, then he shouted at me for doing it! It made me feel like it was in my head and that I was overreacting, but my body obviously knew!

Thank you again, sanmagic. I'm finding this a confusing and lonely thing to deal with and it really is lovely having support from people who understand all this. 

blues_cruise, probably the majority of us here have experienced abuse that wasn't demonstrable to others. That's where all the self-doubt and self-blaming comes in, two things that will make it impossible for us to heal unless and until we receive validation from others that what was done to us was wrong.

I'll give you a handy idea I got from Three Roses. If you saw the things your father did being done to any other child, would you think it was okay or would you know it was wrong?

Thanks for that, Candid. Validation really helps when I share things like this, in my family it was generally accepted that what happened was unpleasant but people turned a blind eye and never confronted my father. I have two young nieces and have thought about how I would feel if I saw similar things happen to them and I find myself horrified and feel protective towards them. My brother is a loving, respectful father and would never lay a finger on them and it really shows in their high confidence, self-esteem and positive approach to life. I was the complete opposite at their age and it actually helps to compare my younger self with them to realise how I was badly affected.

[Dee]

I'm a little late on this, sorry.  I believe you were physically and sexually abused by your father.  You were violated.  I am so sorry.  It's confusing and hard to digest.  Also, when these things happen as a child we think they are normal.  It's hard to understand why you feel so wrong.  I use to believe all fathers bathed their daughters.  There are other things too, but I didn't understand it was wrong and I didn't trust my own feelings.  I hope being validated can help you heal.

[sanmagic7]

i hope the same for you, dee.

[Rainydaze]

I'm a little late on this, sorry.  I believe you were physically and sexually abused by your father.  You were violated.  I am so sorry.  It's confusing and hard to digest.  Also, when these things happen as a child we think they are normal.  It's hard to understand why you feel so wrong.  I use to believe all fathers bathed their daughters.  There are other things too, but I didn't understand it was wrong and I didn't trust my own feelings.  I hope being validated can help you heal.

Thanks for your message Dee, it does really help to hear that.  Yeah, when you're a child it is just your normality. I don't think it helped that everyone else enabled him as though it was normal, my mother always seemed to just ignore any of the really disturbing stuff as though it would just go away. It's frustrating that in the present this is entirely brushed under the carpet and he waltzes around like a poor, sad old man who can't understand why I want nothing to do with him. Ugh, hate it.

[Candid]

everyone else enabled him as though it was normal, my mother always seemed to just ignore any of the really disturbing stuff as though it would just go away. It's frustrating that in the present this is entirely brushed under the carpet...

Straight out of the Dysfunctional Family Manual, blues_cruise. I too came from a FOO in which interpersonal stuff was either blamed on me or not mentioned at all.  As a teenager I was the one out in my bedroom/the garage while FOO were watching TV in the evenings; only really turned up for meals then made myself scarce. In later years my sister acknowledged I'd been the family scapegoat, but neither she nor my other siblings have been inclined to discuss what went on.

... and he waltzes around like a poor, sad old man who can't understand why I want nothing to do with him. Ugh, hate it.

Of course you do! It amounts to a smear campaign. What level of contact do you have with the people he says this to?

[Rainydaze]

everyone else enabled him as though it was normal, my mother always seemed to just ignore any of the really disturbing stuff as though it would just go away. It's frustrating that in the present this is entirely brushed under the carpet...

Straight out of the Dysfunctional Family Manual, blues_cruise. I too came from a FOO in which interpersonal stuff was either blamed on me or not mentioned at all.  As a teenager I was the one out in my bedroom/the garage while FOO were watching TV in the evenings; only really turned up for meals then made myself scarce. In later years my sister acknowledged I'd been the family scapegoat, but neither she nor my other siblings have been inclined to discuss what went on.

... and he waltzes around like a poor, sad old man who can't understand why I want nothing to do with him. Ugh, hate it.

Of course you do! It amounts to a smear campaign. What level of contact do you have with the people he says this to?

That sounds familiar, I would make myself scarce too apart from mealtimes and we never did much family stuff. My parents would always just sit and watch TV in the evenings. I never did feel close to my father even when in the fog and my elder brother bullied me relentlessly. Neither parent ever brought him up on it and it's only dawned on me now I'm an adult that this too probably damaged my self-esteem. I did love my mother dearly and I think she enabled without realising by never piping up in my defence, probably because she just wanted to 'keep the peace'. I don't think she could ever have known how damaging this would ultimately be for me and I do feel a bit betrayed and really sad about it. I understand her perspective though, he was emotionally abusive to her and she wouldn't have understood the personality disorder underlying his behaviour.

Your question about the level of contact I have with people around him has really made me think, because other than my brother (who knows the situation and is very emotionally intelligent) I don't have much to do with anyone around him at all. I have read a lot of other people's accounts where they've been demonized and I think I'm assuming that people must think the same about me in my situation. I guess I just need to learn to let go because I'm not a mind-reader, plus people don't know the full story, feel what I feel or know what I know. Perhaps this is part of learning to validate myself rather than being so worried about what other people think, which has always been a foible of mine.

[Candid]

I think I'm assuming that people must think the same about me in my situation. I guess I just need to learn to let go because I'm not a mind-reader, plus people don't know the full story, feel what I feel or know what I know.

Very pertinent! Humans can't get in each other's heads, we just think we can. We can only judge how people feel about us by their actions towards us.

Perhaps this is part of learning to validate myself rather than being so worried about what other people think, which has always been a foible of mine.

You're not alone there! What other people would think certainly regulates our behaviour in public, and that's a good thing. With CPTSD, however, it's often way too significant in our inner life as well. The urge to prove our abusive smear-campaigners wrong can make us behave very oddly, to the extent that we start acting out their poor opinions of ourselves.

These are good insights you're having. It's very important to me to acknowledge who's talking in my head. It's just plain stupid to have hypercritical parent figures there, and I did that for decades. That can lead us to isolate ourselves, which means we cut off the kinder and more supportive voices.

[Combine59]

I've had a similar story. My N father had serious control issues. All looked "fine" on the outside, but wasn't. There was some physical abuse, but not enough to cause marks. Supposedly all "deserved". Then there was a sexual undercurrent to our relationship that got worse as a teen. Comments, pictures taken of me, questions that made me feel uncomfortable, touching that would be more appropriate for a wife than a daughter but nothing so overt I could really put my finger on it at the time. And a Mother that saw these things and didn't protect me. I do feel more was done, but I can't remember. I just feel nauseous about it all.
Everything came to a head when I had my daughter two years ago. I started realizing it wasn't normal at all and I had to protect her. I confronted both my parents. Not much was done, so after a few set boundaries that weren't respected I went NC. I was blamed for breaking up the family, then my sister came out this year saying he touched her. Sometimes going with your gut and believing yourself has much bigger implications. When I finally started believing my feelings I told my husband and he believed me. This was the biggest step in coming to terms. It was real. You didn't create those feelings and you can't cure yourself of them. Hope you have some good safe people around. I'm glad there are these forums where others have had similar situations and can speak to them. They've helped me see things more clearly.

[Hope66]

Hi Blues-Cruise,
I just wanted to say that I started to read this thread, and feel that I relate to many things you've said.  I don't feel able to say much more just now, only that I wanted to say something.  I will come back to read the replies another time, as I feel a bit triggered just now.  However I do think what your F did was wrong, and wanted to say that I'm glad you've felt able to write about this, as it is a big step to do so, but I know from my own experience that it is helpful to share the experiences and talk about them, and get validation too.
Hope