Confusing therapy session regarding Joy

[Sceal]

Had my weekly meeting with my psychologist today. We talked about the feeling of joy. She thought it was cause for concern that I dont feel any joy, and that I struggled to come up with the last time I felt joy.

She also said it is cause for concern if the problem is that I dont know how to recognize joy, because that will essentially mean I dont experience it - so same problem.

I am not so sure why she suddenly thought it cause for concern, that spot on my week card is nearly always empty.

Most of the time I dont feel anything these days. I dont want to do anything. I dont want to be awake, but neither do I want to sleep. I thought I was getting out of my depression, but... this says otherwise. Maybe its just changing?

My homework til next appointment is to pay attention to joyous feelings in any degree. What if I dont feel anything?
Does me preferring to look at autumn trees because i think they are pretty over looking at nothing inparticular mean joy? I cant feel anything while looking at the trees...

[Sceal]

P.S I usually smile and laugh  I am with others. But it doesnt mean I feel joy, I just cant control it. And it makes me feel like a fraud when I say I dont notice any joy. 

[Dee]

I think it is okay to not feel any joy in the coming week.  Perhaps she is just trying to see if you haven't noticed it.  Feelings are neither wrong or right, they just are.  Though sometimes we need to work to create good feelings.  I can see how joy would be a difficult one.  Looking back at my previous week I can't think of joy.  I am taking my daughter out for a special night tomorrow, maybe that will bring joy?

[woodsgnome]

Maybe this is more of a problem of degree than a total lack? Maybe it's a problem, but not a debilitating one? As in you do laugh, even if you don't equate it with actually feeling joyful when it happens. So you have expressed joy even if it's not meant; and maybe you can or have at other times in your life? Therapy brings up so much and by necessity focuses on what seems wrong or dysfunctional at the moment.

I know I've felt far removed from what anyone could call joy; and/or feeling anything across a broad spectrum--an overall numbness. While I'm better if my comfort level is okay (which takes a lot), it seems during major stressful situations that I'm hanging back to see if it's even alright to express joy or any feeling, as I was often put down in my FOO and my schooling for looking joyful at the wrong time (of which they were the referees and, as abusers, not trustworthy; but I didn't know that then).

Inside, though, I didn't feel what they were telling me I should feel, and subconsciously perhaps began to suspect joy as a quality I wanted to steer clear of (I was surrounded by naturally sad people). This may or may not make any sense to someone else; precise feelings are still a sore point when it comes to describing my inner responses. Learning self-trust is an enormous hurdle for me.

So perhaps there's more backstory than what your therapist knows, and that's what was meant by the heightened concern for its evident lack. But it's not like you don't totally live without its presence, to the extent that you say you can recognize it, but don't feel it and have trouble expressing it--especially in therapy when so much that's scary comes up, especially at first.

I feel a little twinge in posting this (fear of being misunderstood per usual) but it is something that's come up for me. It's almost, in retrospect, as if I felt guilty about daring to admit if something seemed joyful. Wishing you the best with this.

[ah]

I agree with everything Dee said.
And totally with woodsgnome, about it maybe being a matter of degrees? And being satisfied (not joyful, maybe, but still!) to have maybe 6 out of 10 on the joy scale and stay there for now. The joy someone with trauma feels might have some trauma mixed in, which would change its color, but it could still be joy.

I think I'd have found a discussion about it confusing too.

Talking about joy is in itself a pretty big trigger for me, because I don't feel it and nowadays it's the feeling to have.
Pete Walker's first book "The Tao of Feeling" really helps me understand why I feel so much discomfort around joy.
I don't know what joy feels like, it's been turned off in me so whenever I see people who are joyful or I'm told I should be joyful my inner critic wakes up and starts shouting at me at full force. It immediately leaves me feeling unworthy, flawed, beyond repair. It feels like I'm forced to have a discussion about the dark side of the moon.

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that having a hard time with joy is part of c-ptsd.

It's surely an important feeling to feel, and journaling it and paying attention to it is too, but for me the thing that stops me is that you need things that you can feel feel joyful about for it to work.
Having things in your life to be joyful about but not being very good at recognizing joy yet is one thing, but not having them is a totally different situation. Sometimes joy isn't realistic.

Appreciation is a word that works better for me. There are things here and there that I appreciate. I appreciate these forums

Lately I've been trying to think of ways to explain c-ptsd. I think, for example: let's say a baby was born and abandoned to grow up in a neglectful orphanage, then sold off to abusers and went a lifetime of indoctrination and torture. What would you expect them to feel as an adult?
It helps me make sense of things because I noticed I have a blind spot the second the word "family" is introduced. I take out "family"  and look at my back story as it is, and it makes perfect sense that I'd have a hard time feeling joy. Maybe you do too.

I'd feel uneasy too, I totally hear you.

[sanmagic7]

sceal,

the only time i can remember feeling the feeling of joy is when my oldest daughter took her first step.  it washed over me so completely (i was 31 at the time) that i knew what it was even tho i'd never felt it before.  i don't remember feeling it since, either.

i know that my lack of feeling emotions comes from the alexithymia i have which pretty much prevents me from recognizing, understanding, or verbalizing how i feel.   i'd be interested to know what kind of concern your t is talking about.   that may be something for you to ask at your next session.

in the meantime, i don't think it's something for you to worry about.  you'll either feel it or you won't.  i don't know what not feeling joy means for you, or why your t would be 'concerned'.  i hope you get an explanation for that. 

sending you a hug filled with mindfulness and calm.

[Sceal]

Woah - so much to reply to. I will try and make it not too long, but I hope you'll bear with me. First off, thank you all for your inputs! It means alot.

Dee:   Whenever she gives me homework (which is quite often) I usually jump right back into having-to-perform. So not having results is shameful for me. So I wonder if I don't notice any joy, if that'll end up making me feel shameful that I failed in my homework. I will try and keep reminding myself that it's okay not to notice anything, like you say.

Woodsgnome:   I think you're right when it comes to a matter of degree. Most of the time I don't feel joy or happiness. I can feel content and relief though, but mostly it's relief that it didn't go as bad as I feared. Does that count? I do laugh, but rarely do I feel the laugh - you know? If I'm out with friends and there's a joke being told, or there's a comedian on TV or something and everyone bursts out in laughter, I keep thinking "what's wrong with me? I find it funny, but I don't find it THAT funny.. and why can't I laugh like that?", and I end up feeling uneasy about other people's ability to react and my own inability to fit in.  - Is this perhaps something similar to what you describe?
Your post made me think back, to whether I do have more of a backstory to my lack of joy or happiness. Maybe there is, but I'm not sure of the validity of it yet. I rarely think that far back.  I am very happy you decided to post.

Ah:   I have to do a scale check on my presence every morning, maybe I can do something similar? I'm not quite sure how it'd work out though.
I am sorry you're completely unable to feel joy, that it's been turned off as you say. I hope that given time, you will be able to calm your inner critic some so that you can be allowed to feel joy!
I can relate with using other words, the thing is though: in English there are so many different words for various emotions and they are each so individual. But in my mothertongue it's the oposite. We have fewer words to describe many things. And thus "joy" becomes "happiness, wonder, glad, content, apprechiative" and I get lost... I get lost in what it is I am supposed to be looking for. Does it all mean one thing? Are they seperate? If content and apprechiation is enough, then I do sometimes feel those. Like you, I apprechiate this forum. And I apprechiate my psychologist.

Who are you trying to explain cptsd to?

Sanmagic:  I've had one hypomania episode which landed me in my last trauma. But during the hypomania I felt alot of joy. And I do recall memories of when I did feel joyous. But they are so far far away, it seems like someone elses life. Like something out of a story.
I can't imagine how it's like to have Alexithymia, it sounds tricky.

I think I did ask her why she thought it was of concern, I know she gave me an answer. But I was not very much present in today's session. So I don't actually remember her answer. I will attempt to ask her again next week.  I am curious too.

I don't think I'm so worried about the lack of emotion, I am more worried about failing in recovering them. Or failing in doing my homework.

[woodsgnome]

Sceal, you were wondering about not laughing when "I don't find it THAT funny.. and why can't I laugh like that?, and I end up feeling uneasy about other people's ability to react and my own inability to fit in." But you're being honest to yourself by not just going along. So maybe the 'problem' in that regard is reversed, as some people will also laugh at anything just to fit in. It's a game you don't have to join.

Maybe there was a time, even if you don't recall it specifically, when people did hurt you this way, or you were lured into laughing inappropriately and felt bad about it later; or...? There could be many valid reasons why you don't laugh sometimes; at least as many as there are for just following the crowd.

First principle is: be honest with yourself. If you find it funny, acknowledge it; if not, it might actually be their problem, not yours. They might indeed realize why you're not laughing, or maybe not. If not, what matters most--what they think or your self-respect? No explanations should be necessary. Self-respect creates the true joy, whether it's expressed as raucous laughter or in your heart.

[sanmagic7]

hey, sceal,

it sounds like you do know the difference between joy and the other words/feelings you mentioned.  i had a similar experience when i was in mex. - they have fewer words, also, that mean more than one thing, and it was sometimes difficult for me to express precisely what i meant.  well, sometimes i find that happening with english words as well, so  . . .

sense of humor can be different for each individual.  nothing's wrong with you.  i say, laugh when it strikes you as something to laugh at, and know that you're just right for you.

therapeutic homework is basically an assignment to learn about yourself.  whether you 'do' or 'finish' an assignment, is not necessarily the point.  when i gave homework to clients, what they did with it was only more information for me that i could use to help them over or through an issue.  there is no judgment (or shouldn't be) on you as a person. 

you can't do therapy wrong, ever.  you can't do therapeutic homework assignments wrong, either.  there are no grades, no pass or fail.  it's just a method of gathering information that can help you see things more clearly for yourself.   

as far as recovering your emotions, i do believe that happens as we continue in recovery.  we are re-wiring our brains.  i've gotten more in touch with anger lately, an emotion i possibly experienced 5 times in my life until the past few years.  i have no doubt your emotions will show up, possibly sooner rather than later.  sending you a hug filled with encouragement and love. 

[Sceal]

Sorry it took me so long to reply on here.

I understand the theoretical difference between the english words. When to use which. But emotionally?

I know it's about seeing patterns, discovering new things, and noticing things. I just feel like if I don't succeed at least noticing it'll come off as if i am lazy and not working the steps. Or not being motivated to do therapy. I probably judge myself too much in regards on how much effort I should put into the activities that I choose, or end up doing.

[sanmagic7]

hey, sceal,

when you're in therapy, it's not necessarily your job to notice or see everything about yourself and your issues.  that's what the therapist is for.  if we knew all the answers, if we could see everything we needed to see for ourselves, we wouldn't need the help we can get from a therapist.

it's ok for you not to know it all.  it doesn't mean you're lazy or not working hard enough.  this stuff is confusing, and we need help with it.  i'm a therapist, but i can't see it all for myself.  that's why i'm in therapy, too.

sending you a warm, loving hug, sceal.  you're ok and you're doing ok.  no shame or blame in not being perfect.  the people here helped me see that for myself.

[Sceal]

thank you, it's comforting to hear it. I suspect I need to hear the same message over and over and over again until it somehow starts to grow within

[LittleBird]

Sceal,

You mentioned you weren't sure why it was a cause for concern that you didn't feel any joy. The way you feel is personal to you. I just want to let you know that it's nothing to be ashamed of, if you can't identify this feeling at the moment. 

Some people have difficulty identifying or describing emotions within themselves
I put effort into trying to understand them. Nobody runs like clockwork.

It sounds like you're feeling a lot of pressure, that it's become more significant to do your homework than find joy. Did you say something about Autumn leaves? If this is what you appreciate, I hope you can find some. Don't worry so much if your not completely understood.

[I like vanilla]

I agree with the others; feelings are just feelings and not right or wrong. No one should make us feel wrong for having or not having a particular feeling. It is in NO WAY a weakness to feel/not feel an emotion. Often, we fail to feel an emotion because it does not apply to us (e.g. I feel happy at the sight of a spring robin, but a coworker of mine thinks that is ridiculous; I then feel sorry for him...). Sometimes, especially when we never/rarely feel an emotion (or any emotion) it is because we have had a good reason to stop that feeling; the stopping might have been a sign of our strength/resiliency and/or adaptability rather than weakness.

On the feeling of feelings, I am going to speculate for a moment. Perhaps your T was not so concerned about you not feeling joy specifically so much as about you not really feeling much of anything generally? (though it does sound like your T went about it in an awkward way).

For example, when I first started my healing journey, I was fairly numbed out emotion-wise. I had been taught that  'negative feelings' such as anger and sadness were 'bad' and 'must not be felt',  and especially not expressed (somehow guilt and shame were still allowed... hmmm...). I had also experienced overwhelming amounts of anger, fear, and sadness, due to abuses done to me during my childhood. So, I had purposefully and 'accidentally' worked very hard at shutting down those emotions in me to both avoid punishment by my FOO (and others as I grew up) as well as to avoid the overwhelming, uncomfortable sensations that go with these feelings. Turning off the feeling of these feelings was an adaptive, protective strategy that I (largely unconsciously) undertook to protect myself.

The problem is that the human body does not have a set of selective switches for emotions, it just has one big switch for them all. In shutting down the so-called 'bad feelings' I had also shut down the good ones: joy, happiness, excitement, anticipation, love, etc.. I was totally numbed out and had no idea what my emotions were (and am often still trying to figure out what they are). In enacting this self-protective strategy, I did what was necessary and sensible for my circumstances at the time. Unfortunately, I continued the strategy even after it was useful (again largely unconsciously). And unfortunately, in blocking myself off from my emotions I also necessarily blocked myself off from one of the beautiful parts of being human, feeling both the so-called 'good' and 'bad' emotions of life (and yes, other animals also experience emotions but I think they are less likely to cut themselves off from their feelings that we are).

Additionally, because I cut myself off from my emotions, I inadvertently made myself more vulnerable to abusive 'predators' (a bitter irony since the strategy was enacted in the first place to protect myself from my abusers). Because I stopped feeling my emotions, I could not feel resentment and anger when someone was taking advantage of me; I could not feel anxiety or fear when someone was set on causing me harm; I had also shut down my intuition and the instincts that we have to protect us from danger (perhaps more accurately, I had been taught to ignore those signals). I was left more vulnerable to abusers and predators because my emotional system was malfunctioning (and, of course, because I had been taught people-pleasing and other behaviours that made me more vulnerable to these people). I was made more vulnerable to those who would take advantage of me because my body was unable to send warning signals to me about these people and because I was unable to 'hear' and understand the signals that my body was able to still send (and because I had been taught inappropriate responsive behaviours). I speculate that that is part of the reason those of us who suffered CSA are more vulnerable to other assaults, but that is the topic for a different post.

And, worst of all, I never fully felt joy, love, happiness, anticipation, excitement, pride, etc., etc. By shutting down my 'bad' emotions I had necessarily (from a physiological perspective) also shut down the 'good ones'. I had robbed myself - more accurately, my FOO had robbed me - of some of the best parts of having emotions.

During my healing journey I have been figuring out what I like and do not like, etc., learning to make healthy boundaries, to express my needs and wants and to assert myself. To do all of this, I have necessarily had to start accessing and listening to my feelings again. My new T also has a focus on feelings emotions and listening to what my body and emotions are telling me. It has been challenging and at times terrifying (yay! I can feel scared!  (?)); lifelong habits that were developed to (at least initially) keep me safe, are being threatened as I am trying to enact the exact opposite way of being. But I have to admit I am starting to enjoy, or at least appreciate, the process. I stop regularly and ask myself 'how am I feeling right now?' and am genuinely curious about the answer and what I can learn from it.

The feeling of emotions and feelings also seems to be a key part in our healing journeys (trauma expert Dr. Bessel van der Kolk and others have started addressing this issue). The Spartan Life Coach has made a few Youtube videos on the topic that I have found useful. I especially enjoyed an exercise that he teaches in one of the videos of regularly sitting down (he suggests everyday for a month or several weeks? - I forget) and feeling feelings and then mapping them out visually on paper. It can be a general 'how am I feeling now' diagram or a 'I just interacted with my *#&^ boss how do I now feel?' diagram. At the beginning, as Richard Grannon (the SLC) notes is true for many/most of us, my initial 'how do I feel' responses were 'bad' and 'good' but Grannon encourages then looking a 'bad' and seeing what 'bad' means (is it angry, sad, irked, guilty, all of the above, some of the above, none of the above?). With practice, I have been able to be more nuanced - rather than 'bad' I can say I feel 'angry' and rather than 'angry' I can say 'irked' or 'irate', etc. I recommend these videos and that exercise. I have made it into a bit of a game for myself, coming up with the correct words to fully express my feelings for the digram. I also modified the exercise and added colours and shapes with coloured-pencils around the words because that makes the exercise easier for me.

So, back to the originally point, perhaps your T was not so concerned that you are not feeling joy specifically but that you are a bit numbed out in your emotions generally? Perhaps she is using a round-about (and again somewhat awkward) way of helping you get in touch with your emotions, focusing on a 'safer', 'positive' one, such as joy rather than a more 'dangerous', 'negative' one such as anger.(?). Because while at the same time that turning off 'negative' emotions also turns off the 'positive' ones, the reverse is also true; feeling (turning on) 'positive' emotions also allows us to feel the 'negative' ones.

All of that said, if your T was communicating or behaving toward you in a way that was making you feel uncomfortable (yay! you can feel bad/uncomfortable!  (?)) then that point still needs to be addressed, even if your T had 'good motives'. If you feel comfortable enough with your T, you might wish to talk to her about that (recognizing that can be a difficult discussion). Or maybe just ask 'I am curious why there was a focus on joy last day'. If focusing on the feeling/not feeling of joy is uncomfortable and not working for you, no matter your T's motives, then that might be the wrong approach for you. Maybe instead of trying to feel a way you T thinks you 'ought to feel' it might be easier to just figure out what you do feel? And yes, 'lousy', 'not too bad', and 'good' are valid responses, especially at the start, though it is useful to see what 'good', etc. entails. And yes, you are allowed to feel irritated by a spring robin even though others (I) feel joy from it - I would not feel sorry for you then but happy that you know that (I do feel sorry for my coworker who is generally cynical and so consciously 'tries' to not feel joy at small things in life). I tend to be a bit of a rule breaker (which I have been told is a result of having grown-up as the responsible child in a FOO with no stable rules), especially as I have been overcoming my people-pleasing learning. So, if the T gave me this exercise, I might choose to ignore the whole 'joy/not joy' shtick and just focus on 'what am I feeling now?'. (and yes, if you as my T he would agree that I am likely to do that).

[sanmagic7]

vanilla, i can relate to so much of what you wrote about not having appropriate signals for danger and trust, not having the feelings that go along with the body sensations.    i feel like i've been robbed of a 'self' most all my life.  big hug.