Anger

[Blueberry]

Anger, EF, more anger:
I've been reading more on anger. There are two types. One is good to have and express - that's the type that makes set limits in the here and now and going into the future. The second type is covering up either hurt / sadness or a feeling of helplessness. It is apparently not very helpful to cover up any of these feelings with rage, which is what I've been doing in the last little while. It seemed to be a little bit helpful. I wrote an email and didn't do any self-harm, I got some energy and did some cleaning and tidying, I even washed a couple of windows, but it also got worse and worse. More rage came and I got a bit 'touchy' on subjects that aren't that important. Also I tend to start correcting people on things that aren't important, things I could just as easily let slide. Then I got a sore throat and then went down with a really bad cold. I hadn't even been yelling, but I think it started out as an 'anger' sore throat anyway.

Rage doesn't heal what's beneath it - the hurt and feeling helpless or powerless. Rage just 'helps' me to lash out with aggressive voice to or words at other people. Even if sometimes they may have been provoking a bit for whatever reason, it's not helpful for me to get into an argument about not very much. Because then I feel bad and guilty and pull back from people. I think they look at me a bit and look at each other and wonder "What's wrong with her?" And even though I wonder why a certain group of friends and acquaintances always seems to manage to make critical remarks about something particular which is very much part of my life, and they know it, really I should leave them to it. Just ignore. I'm not changing my mind much on the issue, but nor are they apparently.

FOO did this too when I was a teenager and young adult and I remained engaged with them and arguing, it just occurs to me now. So I'm repeating this behaviour now and no doubt that's why it makes me feel bad. Feeling powerless means at least in part that I'm powerless to change their minds. Of course, you always are. You can't force people to change their minds. Except in FOO the idea was to 'pick holes' in other people's arguments and the person who could use the best logic won. My powers of reasoning and logic were always disparaged, so I'm still trying to show I'm logical and not as stupid as FOO always said. In the meantime, I'm treating other people somewhat like FOO treated me. I don't think as badly and it's not all the time, but 'just' when I move into Fight modus. However, it's not good for me.

[DecimalRocket]

It's really tough to feel anger this way. Before I had more of a freeze response, I had more of a fight response. And one of the worst things was the guilt of hurting others. I relate to you in that you have similar logical tendencies — and I really relate to the frustration at lack of logic in others and myself. Not wanting to look stupid, yes.

It reminds me of something I've read when studying enneagram — especially The Type 8 or The Challenger type of coping response. They may look like they're in control, but they're actually dependent on others through their feeling of control on them.

But they only find peace in power when they find the power of kindness, when they're able to influence and change others not in aggression but due to compassion. When they  do things of their own choice of something you show or suggest rather than being forced to, that's when people will often respect them the most.

It's not perfect and not everyone will agree with you (Just a suggestion), but even with that, it could work. A more gentle and warm type of being in power. . . I'm not saying it's easy, but many things worth gaining take time and effort. Things you've showe you're willing to give and work hard for.

[Healing Finally]

Thank you Blueberry,  - I get it, and am totally feeling it today.  I guess I've been in an EF for a long time, as I've been in a constant triggered state; holidays, expectations, and disappointments probably have a lot to do with it. 

I've seen it said somewhere that depression is "the other anger" - so true, I get depressed due to feeling overwhelmed with anger, I can't do anything; feel helpless and hopeless.

As I am typing it occurs to me that I've never been very good with anger.  I have always pushed it down or hid it from myself.  I dealt with so much anger and despair when I was a child and teenager, and I never understood what I was feeling.  I suppose part of our challenge today is now we are learning how to recognize the anger and DEAL with it.

Guilt is a big part of it, my guilt is due to my inability to deal with my anger.  Recently I blew up at my Mom because she was behaving so passively.  Now she can point her finger at me for being "toxic" - ARGH  - and I do feel guilty, the same guilt that I've felt for so long; never seem to live up to people's expectations of me.  BIG SIGH

[Blueberry]

Before I had more of a freeze response, I had more of a fight response. And one of the worst things was the guilt of hurting others. I relate to you in that you have similar logical tendencies — and I really relate to the frustration at lack of logic in others and myself.

Me too, I switch between freeze response and fight response. Still trying to find a happy medium of staking my boundaries without getting enraged and/or running away and hiding for daring to stand up for myself.

Glad somebody can relate to frustration at lack of logic in others and admit to it. Moving forwards, trying to feel less frustrated, and I'm sure I will in time.

[Gromit]

Blueberry, I certainly understand anger and frustration at the lack of logic in others, and passivity.

Many things in my FOO did not make sense, and I was trying to make sense, I could not just be passive and, apparently 'would argue that black was white' mainly because what had been white yesterday was now black. No one else would stand up for reason, they were passive instead, accepting whatever they were told. I think they still do.

I get very passionate about injustice, fairness, right, and get frustrated about those who passively accept things which are very wrong.

I heard something today, I think it was a podcast with JP Sears, talking about how, if you hold a mirror up to some people, to show what they are doing, they will get angry at the mirror rather than the thing which is wrong. Not sure if this is relevant here but that happened to me, people turning on me simply because I had exposed something which was wrong.

But lashing out at little things, inconsequential things, that is a way of defending against looking within and taking action, blaming others instead of accepting responsibility. Probably why irritation is a sign of depression, when you feel helpless and unable to act so show irritation instead.

[ah]

And also, how about... well, I'm not sure this will make sense, but:

In my experience I can also see a difference between the two types of anger in how much control I have over them, and whether they're the same size as their trigger or much bigger. With the first type, when I'm setting boundaries - it may be because my boundaries were breached or someone else's and I saw some injustice - my level of anger feels appropriate to the situation. And when the situation is over, so is my anger. It doesn't stick to me like a shadow.

But with the second type of anger I get overwhelmed by my own emotion, I start spiraling into EF's and into memories of other moments of anger... so many memories of a similar type pile on till it's all too heavy to bear, so I lose control and I end up with anger that gets bigger and bigger, too big to contain it. Then self hatred takes over 

I agree with every word Gromit wrote. Exactly.

FOO related, my F loves arguing endlessly, driving people crazy with word salads and gibberish, black becoming white and vice versa, just to get a reaction out of them. The worse the better. He'd keep going till he broke you. For years and years I used to be locked into endless verbal battles with him. I argued for hours on end, naively thinking I was arguing with a person whose thinking patterns were similar enough to my own that arguing for them meant what it did to me. But it never did. I was arguing to be understood; he was doing it to wound. As a result I learned to argue like my life depended on it, and it can make me very anxious; disagreement feels like extreme danger to me.

But maybe it's not only allowed for people to disagree, it's also very healthy to disagree. Maybe when everyone has to see things the same way, that's dangerous? 

[sanmagic7]

i think it's very healthy for people to disagree - it stems from being individuals with our own experience, emotional responses, perceptions, and boundaries.  i once heard that anger comes from someone stepping over a boundary.  if that's the case, it's righteous anger, and deserves to be expressed (appropriately, if we're to the point of being able to do that).

on the other hand, i've heard that rage is anger filled with shame.  it's anger at something or someone we're ashamed to be angry about or with, such as a parent.  if that anger hadn't been allowed to be expressed at the time, it builds throughout our life.  that's where we blow up at little things that really don't warrant such a passionate display.  like, becoming enraged if we drop something, or someone else/we make a 'wrong' move during a game (this i've seen happen a lot with video games).

the rage is a sign of long ago anger that never was allowed.  i know several people who display rage, and it feels so different from anger - it feels dangerous and out of control.  all the people i've known who have been rageful not only scared the people around them, but also had mother issues that had never been dealt with.

anger is a natural emotion, one that we were born with.  i, too, have had difficulty even feeling angry, let alone expressing it.  i still do - sometimes it takes me days to realize i was angry at something said or done.   i'm sure it had been stifled in me to the point that i didn't even recognize it, didn't recognize boundaries, didn't know my own self.

it sucks that something so natural has been do difficult to deal with for so many of us.  i've always envied people who, when something angered them, they immediately recognized and expressed it.   i so wish i could do that.

[Blueberry]

Wow, Gromit, so much of your post speaks to me! It helps to hear that DR isn't the only one who can understand

anger and frustration at the lack of logic in others.

So that makes three of us at least.

I get very passionate about injustice, fairness, right, and get frustrated about those who passively accept things which are very wrong.

I heard something today, I think it was a podcast with JP Sears, talking about how, if you hold a mirror up to some people, to show what they are doing, they will get angry at the mirror rather than the thing which is wrong. Not sure if this is relevant here but that happened to me, people turning on me simply because I had exposed something which was wrong.

Very relevant. 1) FOO's verbal and emotional abuse of me stemmed from them not wanting the family dysfunction, which included physical abuse, exposed. 2) In December when I first started this topic I was seething with rage about the treatment of me in the LETS group where there was an attempt to throw me out because I had finally exposed a lot of wrong-doing over many years.

But lashing out at little things, inconsequential things, that is a way of defending against looking within and taking action, blaming others instead of accepting responsibility. Probably why irritation is a sign of depression, when you feel helpless and unable to act so show irritation instead.

Hmm. Gives me something to think about. So I'll do that for a while. Let it sink in.

[Blueberry]

TW! (Logical that it might trigger, but I feel triggered myself)

on the other hand, i've heard that rage is anger filled with shame.  it's anger at something or someone we're ashamed to be angry about or with, such as a parent.  if that anger hadn't been allowed to be expressed at the time, it builds throughout our life.  that's where we blow up at little things that really don't warrant such a passionate display.  like, becoming enraged if we drop something, or someone else/we make a 'wrong' move during a game.

the rage is a sign of long ago anger that never was allowed.  i know several people who display rage, and it feels so different from anger - it feels dangerous and out of control.  all the people i've known who have been rageful not only scared the people around them, but also had mother issues that had never been dealt with.

That explains a lot! M and B1 are full of rage. M had a lot of problems with her M. B1 and I were both abused in multiple ways by M, and B1 took out his rage on me. I think they possibly both have untreated and undiagnosed CPTSD, but B1 possibly functions better than I do (he has a good job, married, children) because his anger was allowed, so long as he directed it at me and not at M. Though in later years he directed it at her too, and that was also permitted. Whereas even now if I as an almost 50 year-old set one little verbally expressed limit to M, F leaps in to defend her and B1 and B2 leap in to shut me up so as not to antagonise her.

Of course I was scared of both of them growing up, and I still am to a certain extent. Even though it's illogical, but that's trauma for you. I mean, they're not going to do anything physical to me anymore. But maybe not so illogical to be frightened of the emotional/verbal abuse and gaslighting? Whenever M and B1 turn up in my head in therapy when I'm figuring out why I'm not taking necessary steps, T says "Not them again!?!" and reminds me that it was very sensible to be frightened as a child and not act, not do anything. But now as an adult I'm far, far away and they can't do anything to me.

I don't get enraged if I drop things, that's what M and B1 do. I tend towards anxiety attacks which I have long thought is a kind of EF because when something was dropped or some other minor thing went wrong, that's when M or B1 raged and I was frightened of that. So this reaction is stuck in me. Also M tended to blow a fuse if some machine or gadget didn't work properly. When faced with a new task as a child I used to panic and cry, for which I was punished. Now, when faced with a new task of machine or gadget type, my brain blanks. Sometimes it even blanks for weeks on end about something that isn't new, which I've posted about here before. Suddenly I don't know how to scan a document and it takes several weeks before I can remember how again.

the rage  feels so different from anger - it feels dangerous and out of control.  all the people i've known who have been rageful not only scared the people around them, but...

OTOH this part of your response allows me to see myself through the eyes of others. Even when my rage is seething under the surface or only expressed in what I saw as factual words and not even directed at anybody in the room  - which has happened in 12 Step groups a couple of times - people have drawn back physically or looked shocked. I don't go to 12 Step groups any more partially because this type of anger surfaces there in me, for whatever reason. But now I can understand better the reaction of others there.

[Blueberry]

Even the word 'rage' seems triggering to me. I keep seeing B1 in a rage in my teen years or childhood.

[Three Roses]

  it's truly amazing to me what simple things can trigger us. I am triggered by the words brother, father, mother, family, discipline, and many more. I am sometimes triggered by the sight of my own hands and fingers, as they look similar to my male sibling's. I am triggered by almost any mention of raising children. Trigger warnings do nothing for me. 🤐

[ah]

I get very passionate about injustice, fairness, right, and get frustrated about those who passively accept things which are very wrong.

Me too, and it was used against me in FOO over and over again. I could take abuse directed at me but I lost my cool every single time when it was directed at others near me. It turned me into the family scapegoat, the favorite target.
As a kid I considered it my biggest weakness. I kept thinking "There I go again, I just had to open my big mouth..." I had to take a stand and got so much heat for it, but now as an adult I guess I can see that little kid just had a good heart and had her own mind.
It made her even more vulnerable in FOO and helped me develop a horrible inner critic, but if that kid were anyone but me (like, for example, you) I'd probably love her for it.

Blueberry, I wonder if you were moved very deeply by things too. It could help to explain some of it, maybe..?

[sanmagic7]

 

So this reaction is stuck in me.

interesting choice of words here, blueberry.  if it's 'stuck in you', it would make perfect sense to me that your reaction to anything similar that's brought to mind about them would be so debilitating.  it doesn't matter, to my mind, how far away, how adult you are - that reaction is still 'stuck', and my guess is that until it becomes unstuck, you will continue to be devastated even by the thought of either of those people.

to be consistently raged on as a child, especially by 2 different people, i can't even imagine that such a horrible fear wouldn't have entered your very cells.   i can totally see how you might become paralyzed, anxious, or overwhelmed as an adult, even at the thought of the word.  we're talking fundamental building blocks of your being having been violated. 

i believe that it can get unstuck with the right kind of work.  just like the brain has plasticity to re-wire itself, our cells can grow new receptors that attract pleasure/neutrality rather than the pain they've been conditioned to attract.   (i've read about that elsewhere when exploring healing the wounds of narc abuse).   

this may be contradictory to what your t believes.   i don't mean to confuse you or anything.  just an opinion - if it makes sense, fine, if not, leave it be.   

loving hug filled with compassion and care on its way to you.

gromit, i just read your latest post.  i can relate to getting extremely upset when those kinds of things are going on with others, or to others.  i've often been told to keep my nose out of it, even as an adult.  i agree with your assessment about having a good heart and your own mind.  never lose those.  big, warm, wonderful hug to you.

[ah]

gromit, i just read your latest post.  i can relate to getting extremely upset when those kinds of things are going on with others, or to others.  i've often been told to keep my nose out of it, even as an adult.  i agree with your assessment about having a good heart and your own mind.  never lose those.  big, warm, wonderful hug to you.

Thanks, it was me - not gromit. Will share the hug with gromit just to be on the safe side

[sanmagic7]

sorry, ah.  i was referring to you quoting gromit in your post for one part of what i said, then referred to you about having the good heart and standing your ground.  i got mixed up, and didn't give you the credit you deserved.  i didn't mean to slight you or anything like that.   i messed up.  i'll be more careful next time.

here's a warm wonderful hug coming your way just for you.