Out of the Storm

I've been meaning to read a book I have called 'Unshame' by Carolyn Spring - I think that's the name and the author, and I had the book for a while.  But I have found it difficult to start the book. 

Now, I try to find the book, and I can't even find where I've put it.

I'm wondering if there is a part of me that is reluctant for me to look at and explore my shame.  I know I carry shame, and I do feel it sometimes, very heavily.  But I also acknowledge that there's a part of me that tries not to let me feel it, or even look into it.

Anyway, I just wanted to write this now, just to say this.  I hope to find the book.  I hope to read and explore the concept of shame, and explore my own shame.

If anyone has read this book, I'm hoping it was helpful - please do comment if you want to.  I hope to read it - when I finally find it.

I feel exasperated not to even know where to start looking.  It's so hot (weather-wise) at the moment as well. 

Hope  :)

Whilst I was in this section of the forum, writing this, I noticed that I'd written this in reply to SharpandBlunt, in another part, and I wanted to quote it here:

Quote from: Hope67 on October 26, 2020, 07:02:58 PM
I am aware that I have tried to put forward what must seem like a 'shiny' side of myself in many situations in my life, but that underneath I feel as if I'm ashamed and disgusted with myself at many levels - I carry shame and I carry dislike with me - and therefore I wonder how authentic I can be, when carrying those things.  But I try not to show those things to other people, because I am ashamed of them.  So I guess that is feeling 'exposed' but trying to carry on anyway.

You mentioned that in order to survive you have had to develop a large measure of denial - I think that's a protective thing, and I've done that too.

If I find the book I'm seeking about 'Shame' I hope to write more in this thread - if it feels ok to do so, when the time comes, but it was interesting to see what I'd written here about shame and feeling ashamed - as a starting point.

Hope  :)

Hope, I appreciate you bringing up the topic of shame.  It has been on my mind as I've been living in it all summer. 

I haven't heard/read the book you referenced.  The reading I've done on shame has mostly been through Brene Brown. 

I can relate to what you say about feeling a bit stuck in facing shame.  It is a sensitive part within me and it often doesn't take much for me to go there. 

Sometimes reaching out to others has been supportive to me.  Not always though.  I think that there are things just very deep in me that I feel shame for that I haven't found a way to express and thus they stay in the dark. 

I am really working to change my relationship to myself because I think shame ultimately gets me disconnected from myself and thinking I am too flawed. 

I also appreciate you bringing up this difficult topic, Hope. Shame has been a tricky one for me. It's almost like it is protective so when we've tried working on it in therapy it has backfired quite a bit. For instance it triggered some new SH behaviors I had never had before. It's getting better though.

I found this book as an ebook on Amazon, it was on special offer. I have read it and it is good. She also has a podcast.

G

Hi Rainydiary, Armee & Gromit,
Thank you for your replies here and comments about Shame.  I want to say more in reply to each of you, but I think I've just caused myself to dissociate a bit by having just written some things in my journal - but I hope to return here sometime and say more - especially as I've been reading the book (having managed to find it) and I have found it incredibly helpful, and also emotive to read it. 

Gromit, I agree that it's a good book - I've also bought some of her courses, which I have found really helpful too - I've not tried her podcast, but I will look out for it.  Thank you.

Hope  :)

Quote from: Hope67 on July 27, 2021, 08:27:15 AM

Gromit, I agree that it's a good book - I've also bought some of her courses, which I have found really helpful too - I've not tried her podcast, but I will look out for it.  Thank you.

Which courses helped? I get emails about all kinds of courses but haven't tried any of the ones you have to buy, I guess I wonder if they are worth it.

G

Hi Gromit,
I bought the webinar courses when they were on a half-price offer - I think Carolyn Spring does that offer now and again, so would be worth looking out for, as it makes it more affordable.

I like the courses as it means I can listen and watch them again - I found the one about Child Sexual Abuse really helpful, and also one about Dissociation and DID, and I also really found the 'Working with Relational Trauma' one very helpful.  I have discovered that I started doing the 'Working with Shame' one - but haven't finished viewing it - that was some time ago, and so I think maybe I found that one more challenging to work through - but I intend to go back, and view it again and continue with it to the end, particularly now I've just read her book 'Unshame'.

She offers free clips of each course so you can see what's involved, and decide if you think it's for you or not.

Hope  :)

Hope,
Thanks so much for your bravery in starting this thread (nearly three years ago).

Quote from: Hope67 on July 22, 2021, 02:10:09 PMI've been meaning to read a book I have called 'Unshame' by Carolyn Spring ...

Now, I try to find the book, and I can't even find where I've put it.

I'm wondering if there is a part of me that is reluctant for me to look at and explore my shame.  I know I carry shame, and I do feel it sometimes, very heavily.  But I also acknowledge that there's a part of me that tries not to let me feel it, or even look into it.

Anyway, I just wanted to write this now, just to say this.  I hope to find the book.  I hope to read and explore the concept of shame, and explore my own shame.

If anyone has read this book, I'm hoping it was helpful - please do comment if you want to.  I hope to read it - when I finally find it.

I feel exasperated not to even know where to start looking.  It's so hot (weather-wise) at the moment as well. 

Hope  :)

Quote from: Hope67 on July 27, 2021, 08:27:15 AM... I hope to return here sometime and say more - especially as I've been reading the book (having managed to find it) and I have found it incredibly helpful, and also emotive to read it. 

Gromit, I agree that it's a good book ...

Rainydiary's comment really resonated, too, especially the part about the "relationship to myself."  With my new therapist, I am immediately addressing two big things:  healing my wounded self-worth, and improving the relationship I have with me.

Quote from: rainydiary on July 22, 2021, 04:45:52 PMI can relate to what you say about feeling a bit stuck in facing shame.  It is a sensitive part within me and it often doesn't take much for me to go there. 

Sometimes reaching out to others has been supportive to me.  Not always though.  I think that there are things just very deep in me that I feel shame for that I haven't found a way to express and thus they stay in the dark. 

I am really working to change my relationship to myself because I think shame ultimately gets me disconnected from myself and thinking I am too flawed. 

Hope, I haven't read the book you mentioned.  I'm here now because it's time for me to start bringing together the pieces that are starting to click about shame.  You phrased it beautifully:

Quote from: Hope67 on July 22, 2021, 02:10:09 PMI hope to ... explore the concept of shame, and explore my own shame.

So, I'll write now about what I've learned about the concept of shame, and begin to explore my own shame.

---

TW
Shame is so insidious that exploring it can bring up more shame.  I believe a tremendous support system, whatever that might be for each of us, is necessary to do this.  I am doing this with my trauma-informed therapist.  I feel safe with her and I wouldn't be ready to do this without her.  And as Armee so bravely revealed:

Quote from: Armee on July 22, 2021, 05:35:22 PMI also appreciate you bringing up this difficult topic, Hope. Shame has been a tricky one for me. It's almost like it is protective so when we've tried working on it in therapy it has backfired quite a bit. For instance it triggered some new SH behaviors I had never had before. It's getting better though.

I've always struggled with the relevance of shame in my life.  I don't have anything to be ashamed of, and cognitively I could always understand that.  I didn't feel guilty about anything, so why should I feel ashamed?  There was such a disconnect between what I was thinking and what I was feeling.  I couldn't cognitively identify with shame, so that served as a block to letting me feel the shame.  Getting to the feeling of it became an immediate activity in therapy.

First, she shared a video file (mp4) of a John Bradshaw seminar about shame.  (Note:  Neither she nor I are able to find this video published online.  She said she believes it would be okay to post it here if we can find a host for the file.)  If I was able to, my homework was to watch the video and journal about it.  So I did.  Some of my notes, in different font, are below.


Two Types of Shame

• Healthy Shame:  humility, permission to be human, lets us know we have limits (so be careful), gives us emotional power.
• Toxic Shame:  state of being such as "I am a mistake," (Note: Blame is about doing), submit to control, perfectionism, criticism, abandonment, neglect.

Cycle of Shame

	Shame-Based Identity	→	Distorted Thinking
	↑		↓
	Life-Damaging Consequences	←	Acting Out Cycle

Healing Shame Through Externalization

Shame hates exposure.  It keeps ourself from other people and from ourself.

The Externalization Process

• Surrender:  Release and give up control.
• Socialization:  Participate in a group.
• Self-disclosure:  Uncover yourself; become vulnerable.
• Sensitive to the system you came from:  Awareness of roles.
• Self-talk:  Use affirmations; stop negative thoughts.
• Self-love:  Choose to ask for what we want.
• Spirituality:  Reach the silence; sense inner life.

The inner self cries out to be given the gift of loving ourself.


Well, now Pandora's box is open.  Once I saw an explanation, took notes about it, reviewed the notes, reviewed the notes again and again, it finally clicked.  I could see how the Cycle of Shame played out in my own life, from big moments and decisions to relatively small ones.  Now, my homework is to journal about how shame gets triggered for me, how it manifests in my reactions, and how it feels in my body.

Everyone please feel free to comment and/or extend any of this.
   -Cascade

I'll add that Carolyn Spring has a blog article (2021):
Why is shame such a central experience of child sexual abuse? (https://www.carolynspring.com/blog/shame-and-child-sexual-abuse/)

I'll bet most of the article is also relevant in cases of neglect and other abuse.
   -Cascade

Hi Cascade,
Wow I am very interested in what you've written here about shame.  I shall hope to come back and read it later in the week - because I am definitely interested in everything here.  Thanks also for sharing Carolyn Spring's blog article, I haven't read that, but I hope to look later.  I'm reluctant to read it today - as I'm feeling quite chilled out currently, and don't want to trigger myself today.

But I just wanted to say that I wish you the best with the homework you mentioned - and hope it goes well.
Hope  :)

:thumbup: Sounds good, Hope!
Certainly no pressure.  I'm glad you're still interested in exploring this whenever the time might be right for you.  I'm not too excited myself about next steps with my homework, lol.  ;D

Enjoy your chill and take things as they come for yourself.  Thanks for the well wishes!
   -Cascade

Just wanted to chime-in a Thanks for this thread. VERY illuminating and dynamic implications for me. I've got John Bradshaw's book Healing The Shame That Binds... but still haven't read it. I'll be careful not to misplace it either ;)

So funny, I was searching in my google drive today and found John Bradshaw´s book about shame that I forgot about (I downloaded it some time ago, planned to read it, then forgot about it  ;D ).

Quote from: Cascade on June 23, 2024, 05:10:29 PMI'll add that Carolyn Spring has a blog article (2021):
Why is shame such a central experience of child sexual abuse? (https://www.carolynspring.com/blog/shame-and-child-sexual-abuse/)

I'll bet most of the article is also relevant in cases of neglect and other abuse.
   -Cascade

Thanks for this link. I've read it just now, but I'll need to go back to it and re-read to take more in.

Agreed, Blueberry... there's a lot in that article!  I, too, will have to read it again and take notes.  My learning process is to synthesize information by reorganizing it for myself and my own brain, kind of like breaking it down and building it up into something that makes sense for me.

Dalloway, glad you found your digital copy of Bradshaw's book!  Hmm... serendipity?  There are no coincidences.

Edit:
Ack, Chart, I didn't scroll enough to remind me of your post, too.  Glad you're here!  It seems everyone has a book except me, lol.

Thanks for chiming in,
  -Cascade

:spooked: Okay... just gonna dip my toe in a little bit here.  This is more about self-blame that came up during yesterday's internal family systems (IFS) session, rather than shame itself (I think!).  It might lead into shame in the sense that I feel like I am bad, weak, and worthless for not taking action.  Anyway, here goes with my reflections since yesterday:

The inner teen is angry with me, blaming me, herself, herselves, for not fighting, not telling, not standing up for myself, submitting to them all, and even bending over backwards to please them and try (vainly) to gain approval and love and acceptance and value.  I tell her it was all we could do to survive, we didn't know how to do anything else.  Now we can.  Now we can work together to put it in the past, where it belongs.

It wasn't your fault.  It wasn't any of our faults.  All this was done to us.  It's their fault.  Remember the blame is theirs.  Hey, you know what?  We can heal.  They were never going to change.
:grouphug:

During yesterday's session, my therapist pointed out how ridiculous it was to be angry at an infant and a six-year-old for not being able to stop neglect and abuse inflicted upon them.  Cognitively, yes, I agree!  Emotionally, I still feel like I disappointed myself or let myself down.  How do I stop living in the world of unrealistic expectations?

Answer:  By working through this together.  We're all here now and gonna get through this together.

Love to all,
  -Cascade

It is easier to logically understand that a child could not be responsible for the evil deeds of others than to shake the self-blame and shame that comes with it. 

Our concept of self is severely damaged by the abuse we endured. That self depreciation has been with us for years, sometimes decades. Of course it will be hard to overcome. 

I do believe though that given time that inner sense of guilt and shame will diminish until it is a whisper instead of a shout. There is hope. 

I also wanted to say that I had Healing The Shame that Binds You for ages before I started to read it, and when I did, found it difficult to come back to. There is so much in there that redirected and/or confirmed a lot of beliefs and suspicions I had about things (ie what actually is sexual abuse - it's much broader than I think most people would acknowledge), and opened my eyes to new ones. I still haven't finished it yet and this is a good reminder to go back to it.

Quote from: Cascade on June 26, 2024, 10:21:12 PMAnyway, here goes with my reflections since yesterday:

The inner teen is angry with me, blaming me, herself, herselves, for not fighting, not telling, not standing up...

This is EXACTLY how a teen would feel. I agreed with everything you mentioned to work together and correctly placing the blame. Maybe let her know too that her emotions are OKAY. She's also right, in a sense. Only, as your T pointed out toi, there's little that babies and small children can do.

But the emotions are valid, covering perhaps deeper sadness, but valid. Teens need that I think.
:hug:

Little2Nothing, it was so reassuring to hear your words of wisdom.  Thank you!

Dollyvee, glad to hear you'll join in the reading.  Thanks for telling us.  I agree about the definition of sexual abuse.  You already know it's fine to put the book down when you need a break.  I'm just explicitly stating it for everyone's benefit because this stuff is tuff.  :blink:

Chart, thanks so much for your validation.  My teen says, "Yeah, that!"

I really appreciate everyone reading and taking the time to comment in such helpful ways.  Thanks for being here!
   -Cascade

I agree that this is some of the really, deep core stuff that needs doing in order to come out the other side of cptsd, and by no means is it easy. So kudos for doing your homework.

I'm also interested in "preverbal" shame because I think from an early age I had to deal with the idea of life-threatening situations which then turn into, it must be me, I must be the bad one. As L2L said, logically it makes sense that that small me isn't responsible, but going into the core emotions around that (terror?) are difficult.

The other thing that sort of made a lot of sense from the John Bradshaw book, or I related to quite a bit, is that we have these shame-based identities from a young age that are then reinforced by society. Through school, religion, social acceptability etc. I think there's a sense of wanting to fit in, but also feeling flawed again when you don't, which just doubles down on the belief that "it must be me." We're human, we should be accepted etc, so there must be something wrong with us when we're not.

I'm also becoming interested in the idea of "group work" as you had on your list. Maybe it's for another thread, but Patrick Teahan had a video talking about the different types of personalities we develop as a result of trauma, and that working in a group where you receive honest feedback about maybe your blindspots is something that's been in the back of my mind. Feedback in terms of this is how you are coming across, which I think can be really difficult things to hear because there is so much shame attached to it. At least this is how I understood it.

Hope you get a gold star for your homework  :cheer:

Yeah, preverbal shame I think has "driven" an enormous amount of my behavior all my life. I'm jus now starting to chip away at it. Yeah, I totally agree, this subject is one of the fundamentals we have to address for deeper healing. Thanks Dollyvee, your reflections are really valuable to me.

Hi Dollyvee,
Thanks for the kudos!  Maybe it counts as a gold star when my therapist said she hesitates to assign homework because "I'm so good about doing my journaling anyway."  I have to admit, though, I've been slower than usual during the past couple weeks about getting to my journaling about shame.  It's still a little hard to get a handle on.  You mentioned the broader societal norms around shame, which really gets to me and makes me feel like the entire world is gaslighting me.  Sigh.

Quote from: dollyvee on June 28, 2024, 07:08:54 AMI'm also becoming interested in the idea of "group work" as you had on your list. Maybe it's for another thread, but Patrick Teahan had a video talking about the different types of personalities we develop as a result of trauma, and that working in a group where you receive honest feedback about maybe your blindspots is something that's been in the back of my mind. Feedback in terms of this is how you are coming across, which I think can be really difficult things to hear because there is so much shame attached to it. At least this is how I understood it.

In my opinion, anything about exploring shame is good to include in this thread!  If you were referring to the socialization part of healing shame (purple text below), I definitely see OOTS as my "group."  I feel safe enough here to open myself to others' perspectives.  That's why I wanted to come back to this thread.  As you say, "honest feedback about blindspots" can be one part of healing.  Folks here are usually really good about framing things constructively, if we do decide to venture out on those limbs.

Quote from: Cascade on June 23, 2024, 04:49:29 PMHealing Shame Through Externalization

Shame hates exposure.  It keeps ourself from other people and from ourself.

The Externalization Process

• Surrender:  Release and give up control.
• Socialization:  Participate in a group.
• Self-disclosure:  Uncover yourself; become vulnerable.
• Sensitive to the system you came from:  Awareness of roles.
• Self-talk:  Use affirmations; stop negative thoughts.
• Self-love:  Choose to ask for what we want.
• Spirituality:  Reach the silence; sense inner life.

The inner self cries out to be given the gift of loving ourself.

And for both Dollyvee and Chart,
Regarding pre-verbal shame, I was so surprised when my inner infant showed up to my first Internal Family Systems (IFS) "family meeting."  Although it was sad to learn of her feelings, it was nice to be able to give her a voice that I could sense and understand.  She had the first needs that were unmet, so getting to that level of original neglect in my world was definitely important and "one of the fundamentals," as you say, Chart.

Thanks so much for adding your insights!
   -Cascade

Before venturing too deeply into shame, I've also been working on safety and stabilization.  My therapist sent a video with a bunch of different exercises to try.  She'd like me to have two or three Go-To activities that I can do when I feel I am outside the window of tolerance.  The video and my notes are below, reorganized in a way that makes sense to my brain.  I'm still working on the activities themselves.
  -Cascade


Safety Activities
Goal:  Strengthen an internal sense of safety.
Practice:

• Try each activity, describing how it feels both emotionally and physically in your body.
• Find two or three favorite activities that work best.
• Perform the favorites daily during times of calm to build new sensory pathways.

Container
Is it just too overwhelming?  Put away whatever is moving you outside the window of tolerance until it is more manageable (e.g., when you can talk with someone about it).

Light Stream

• Beam of light enters into top of head.
• Light flows through and fills entire body.
• Light leaves through feet.

Anchors
Make lists of things that bring a sense of safety.

• Safe places
• Safe people and/or creatures
• Safe music (https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16156.msg144570#msg144570)
• Safe memories
• Safe sensations

Grounding
Self-regulation in the present; "I am safe enough right now."
Notice the real world around you:

• 5 things you can see
• 4 things you can touch
• 3 things you can hear
• 2 things you can smell
• 1 thing you can taste

Drawing Safety
Simultaneously activate the visual cortex while in a sense of safety.
[Note:  Does coloring mandalas count?  I think it does!]

Gratitude (Blueberry, I always think of you with this one!)
Shifts attention from scarcity to abundance.

Strengths and Accomplishments
List your good qualities, achievements, and challenges you overcame.

TW:  Shame

So, I'm only dipping one more toe in here.  I'll describe something my therapist pointed out, although I haven't journaled deeply about it or had any emotional upheaval yet.  One step at a time.  I'll put this much out there first and then that will help me clear my mind for the next step of going deeper.

The conversation

• Therapist:  What are some ways that shame affects you now?
• Cascade:  There was a lot of shame wrapped up in work, and of course relationships.
• Therapist:  Yes, while I agree that's true, I was thinking more in your daily life right now.  For example, with things like isolation, negative self-talk, and minimizing your current needs.  Consider the impacts of all those things.
• Cascade:  Oh.  Yeah.  Right.  Ummm...

Phrases that keep coming up are that inner parts of me feel like a burden or needy.  So we brainstormed my basic needs.  LOL, she asked how much sunlight I got... I felt like I regressed to being a plant!  Without inflicting more shame upon myself for not meeting these basic needs, we came up with a list.

• exercise (QiGong)
• good food
• being out (in the sun, with people around)
• sleep
• community
• safety

For more brainstorming, I also like Maslow's Expanded Hierarchy of Needs (Simply Psychology (https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html)).
(https://www.simplypsychology.org/wp-content/uploads/Maslows-Hierarchy-8-Levels.jpeg)

So that's pretty much the point I'm at.  Thoughts, perspectives, whatever are welcome!
   -Cascade

Good work Cascade. You're really working. I'm happy and impressed. (Wish I could move a bit more me...)

I've realized from rereading this thread that shame of a certainty has a huge impact on me... now and probably since the beginning.

I just feel such an absence of energy I can't get myself to address it in me...

But the work you're doing Cascade is truly inspiring.
Sending support!
 :hug:

Hi Chart,
Thanks for touching base on this.  I'm glad to know reading this journey is providing a little lift on your end.

You're certainly not expected to "address" anything; you don't have to expect it of yourself.  This is just a place for saying things about shame when we're ready to say them, and be heard and supported along the way.  Even if you don't share about yourself, I fully recognize how difficult it is to come to this thread and even just read the content.  That's why I wanted to put the safety stuff ahead of my most recent exploration with my therapist.  Anyway, all of that to say that I really appreciate you checking in and offering your words of encouragement and support!  It means a great deal and the inspiration helps feed a (NEW!) positive feedback cycle.  You inspire me, too.

I need to take this thread slowly myself.  I haven't journaled any more about the isolation, negative self-talk, or minimizing my basic needs.  This is all tuff stuff!  :bigwink:

Thanks for being here through the muck with me,
   -Cascade
:grouphug:

Hi everyone,
I really appreciate the things that have been written in this thread on shame.  I had started to read Bradshaw's book about 'Healing the Shame that Binds Me' but I must admit that I have only got half-way through, and have decided not to complete reading it at this point, and have turned to another book by Christy Gibson called 'The Modern Trauma Toolkit: Nurture your post-traumatic growth with personalized solutions' - and I have just read something relevant about 'shame' on p.97 of that book, which I thought I'd share here, incase it's helpful to anyone:

It's called:
"Let's Practice - The Container.
I'd like you to imagine the container where your shame belongs.  Is it a box?  A garbage can?  Or a Tupperware containter?  Put your shame in the box and seal the lid as much as you'd like to.  You could place the lid, but also add locks or duct tape or glue.  Anything you need.

We're going to give this shame back to the person who gave it to you.  Knowing that it probably wasn't theirs either, and they might need to give it back to their parents as well.  One more reason to make the container really sturdy.  It might have a lot of travelling to do.

I'd like you to imagine all the components of this container.  How heavy is it, what color it might be, what's the texture if you were to hold it from the outside.  You don't need to see what's inside it, just know that it's shame - and it's not yours.

Imagine a scenario where you could give this back.  Do you leave it on the doorstep?  Do you ring the doorbell and then walk away?  That's my favourite move.  You could also leave it in someone's backyard.

It might not feel right to give it to a person.  Especially if you still have a confusing relations with them, this might not feel comfortable.  And I welcome you to listen to your gut on that.  The more you learn to pay attention to your gut feelings, the more your instincts will send stronger signals you can pay attention to.

In this scenario, you might want to send it on a rocket into space, drop it to the bottom of the ocean, or bury it somewhere.  It will be up to you to decide where to bury it, how deep it needs to be, and how hidden this place is.

Part of this exercise is learning to trust your instincts about what you need.  And part of it is imagining leaving this box of shame behind, knowing that it's not yours."

(I haven't tried this exercise yet, but I did like how it sounded, and thought I'd share it here - incase anyone else also likes it and might try it).

Hope  :)

Thanks Hope that's helpful. I haven't loved the idea of container exercises since most of us have been container-izing so much for so long but this one makes sense to then do something with it that makes sense...to pass the box of shame back the ones who gave it to you and they can do the same. Helpful to imagine.

Shame had quieted down for me a lot lately but it popped back up this week in therapy pretty intensely.

Hi Armee,
I have tried that exercise a couple of times now - I did it yesterday.  I decided that I couldn't leave the container with a member of my FOO as I didn't think they would know what to do with it, so instead I let it go up in a rocket into the sky.  It felt satisfying in my imagination.  I tried it a second time with some shame connected to things that had happened when I was at school, and left another container of shame at the door of one of my teachers.  I think that teacher might not be living anymore, but in my imagination, she was there.  It felt good to leave it there with her. 

Armee, I hope that the shame that popped up lately for you in therapy is something you are able to process/deal with ok.  Sending you compassion and support with it  :hug:

Hope  :)

Thank you Hope I really appreciate the description of how you did it and the decisions you made about how to do it. That's super helpful.

And thanks for the hope that I'll be able to process the recent shame that came up. I think I will be able to. Sometimes I need to write things down and as I write them the connection becomes clear as to where that shame popped up from...because it feels as if it is something about the present moment, but really it's a piece of the past. I wrote down what happened around that shame last night and I saw that it made perfect sense for what piece I need to process next.  :grouphug: 

What this makes me think of is the recurring theme (and importance) of creativity and imagination in the healing process.
Thanks Hope!

Creativity and imagination - those are inspiring words Chart.  Thanks to you for phrasing it in that way.   :)

I don't really understand the whole concept of shame. I don't mean that I don't have any. I think I probably have lots of it, but I'm not sure I understand it as shame. My T has often asked if I struggle with shame and I usually say "no" or "I don't know" and change the subject.

So I am really interested in reading this thread.

Shame I definitely know about surrounds body issues. My mother mocked my ugly feet and my crooked teeth and my lanky hair and my fatness and - well, you name it. When she wasn't mocking she was actively working to fix these faults. I am very aware of my physical appearance and even though I do not any more subscribe to my mother's views of how I should present myself, I undoubtedly feel a need to control how I look.

I have a huge fear of having any kind of spotlight put on me. I guess that is tied up with shame and a fear that I will be found wanting. Best to hide in the background.

I fact check things I say. I will double-check the meaning of words I might use, or their spelling, despite the fact I know perfectly well already. If someone tells me something interesting I may report it back to my husband. He will then ask questions I did not ask them. He is just interested, but I get angry and defensive when he does that. It makes me feel like I should have obtained the information he is interested in and that I am lacking because I did not think to do so. I guess that is shame?

I'm scared of making mistakes. A recent step forward for me was when a relative emailed about me being ill and asked if I would like them to send me some cartoons to cheer me up. I said "yes", assuming they were going to email. Nothing arrived and I complained about them to my T. Not just about that - they had said some annoying things, but anyway I criticised them. The very next day a book of cartoons arrived by mail. My immediate reaction was a huge wave of guilt that I had doubted them. They'd gone to all that trouble and instead of just being patient I had been rude about them to my T. That sort of thought cycle could rumble on for days - but on this occasion I actually managed to tell myself it was a mistake on my part, and no harm had been done, so just forget about it. I am supposing that might be tied up with shame, too.

And the immediate thought I had when considering the interesting exercise of putting the shame in a container and returning it was - but what if the person opens it? What if they know it is from me? They might think it is my shame even though it isn't. Even if I buried it or dropped it in the ocean or sent it to space - what if an earthworm or a fish or an alien opened the container and saw all this stuff labelled "NK's SHAME". I mean, my  logical brain knows it would not be labelled as such because it is not mine. But my emotional brain ignores all that.

I can share my experience with shame. I don't know if it will resonate with you, but I can at least share my own experience.

Currently, I am deeply entrenched in the book Letting Go: The Pathway to Surrender, by Dr. David Hawkins. On pages 29 to 31, he lists the Emotional states that we put ourselves into on a list from lowest vibration to highest. The lowest is Shame. He describes those parts of us that continue to live in shame like this:
 
Shame (20 points out of 1000): Characterized by Humiliation, as in "hanging your head in shame." It is traditionally accompanied by banishment. It is destructive to health and leads to cruelty toward self and others.

In my MDMA experience, I had to come to terms with how much fear I had of getting into trouble, or causing trouble for my facilitator, or of having a negative experience under the medication. I was worried I'd have a heart attack or something while in their care, they'd have to call for emergency services, and my being under medication would get them into trouble. THAT is shame. I was worried that by doing something good for myself I'd hurt someone else. (That's how I was raised. If I ever got anything I wanted, I'd later find out that I'd hurt the person who had to get it for me. I was always blamed for the unhappiness of my FOO. I was always ashamed of myself: either for being the only kid on the block without a decent bike or for getting a new bike and finding out that getting the bike hurt someone. Shame. I lived in shame all the time).
 
My facilitator said that shame is likely the underlying reason I resisted the medication for so long. I was ashamed of myself for spending mine and Coco's money on my selfish desire to be healthy. I always am ashamed of the money I spend on myself because I feel like it's Coco's money too, and she doesn't spend as much on her health as I do on mine. When I was a Catholic school boy, living in the shame of the sexual abuse I was enduring, I was what Hawkins describes in his words on shame. I did walk with my head down. I did try to not make eye contact with anyone. I did plot ways to take my own life without bringing shame onto my family. They were good. I was bad. I had to make it look like an accident so they wouldn't be ashamed of me in my death like they were in my life.

Shame is what drives my most common fear triggers. The thing I'm the most afraid of in life is becoming the embodiment of shame again.

I used to worry about losing my home due to my financial struggles of most of my life. I knew then that living on the streets wasn't what I was terrified of, but what scared me to my core was knowing that if I lost my job or my home, my FOO would all get together and say "We all knew this idiot couldn't manage his life on his own." I was TERRIFIED of being ashamed of having lost my home. I was more terrified of being ashamed of myself than I was of having to live in a cardboard box. 

From the very beginning of my life, shame has been the driver for the largest percentage of my fear triggers. My darkness resides in shame. Fear of shame. Fear of being myself. Fear of hurting others by becoming a burden on them, or fear of being thrown out in the weeds for being too embarrassing to be seen with.

The book is proving to be just what I needed to read right now. It came into my life on the day I needed it and was ready for it. I'm learning how to lift myself up out of the resonating vibrations of living in the energy of shame to living now in the energies of acceptance, joy and gratitude.

Shame will always be down there at the bottom of the list of emotions, but I don't have to live inside of it anymore. It can be a nuisance that tries to grab at me, but it doesn't have to be the air that I breathe anymore like it used to be. With enough practice, I can learn to bat shame away in the way that I now bat mosquitos away from my face in the evening out by the firepit. Shame will always be there, but I don't have to live inside of it anymore. I can deal with it as it comes up because I'm letting go of it.

Shame has always been my most dangerous nemesis. I'm more worried about being ashamed of failing in life than I am of living in a cardboard box. My narcissist sister had no physical power over me. ALL her power over me was emotional. She knew how to lock me into my own shame and make me squirm. She had me doing self-harm so often that it's literally a miracle I survived multiple attempts at ending my own life. By letting go of shame (which is done progressively, not as if by an on/off switch), she's lost nearly all her power over me. If she can't shame me, there isn't much else she can do. I'm stronger, faster, smarter, and better looking than her. (I added the better-looking part just to make myself chuckle a little. Laughter is a powerful pain killer).

Shame is my past. I used to have nightmares that I was back in Catholic school. The truth is that my nightmares were not so much about Catholic school as they were about my truest fear of having to live deep inside the bubble of shame again. Having moments of shame is no fun. But living within the vibration of shame 24x7x365 is what I just can't ever let myself do again.

I believe that shame is probably the most insidious of all the co-morbidities of Cptsd.

Wow, I'm so grateful for everyone's contributions!  This is a great discussion for me and really helps to know others are struggling with shame as much as I am.

Quote from: Hope67 on July 20, 2024, 02:41:55 PMHi everyone,
I really appreciate the things that have been written in this thread on shame.  I had started to read Bradshaw's book about 'Healing the Shame that Binds Me' but I must admit that I have only got half-way through, and have decided not to complete reading it at this point, and have turned to another book by Christy Gibson called 'The Modern Trauma Toolkit: Nurture your post-traumatic growth with personalized solutions' - and I have just read something relevant about 'shame' on p.97 of that book, which I thought I'd share here, incase it's helpful to anyone:

It's called:
"Let's Practice - The Container.
Part of this exercise is learning to trust your instincts about what you need.  And part of it is imagining leaving this box of shame behind, knowing that it's not yours."

Hope, I'm so glad to hear about your success!  My therapist had me do this a little while ago and I threw the container into the middle of the ocean.  I can't even remember now what I put in there! :Idunno: :rofl:

Also, I am having a really hard time reading Bradshaw's book, which I finally did order.  My brain is having a hard time with the way it's organized, and there are just a lot of biblical references.  I'm sorry but the healing world does not revolve around the institution of Christianity.  Make your points another way.  [end rant]

Quote from: Armee on July 21, 2024, 02:24:30 PMAnd thanks for the hope that I'll be able to process the recent shame that came up. I think I will be able to. Sometimes I need to write things down and as I write them the connection becomes clear as to where that shame popped up from...because it feels as if it is something about the present moment, but really it's a piece of the past. I wrote down what happened around that shame last night and I saw that it made perfect sense for what piece I need to process next.

Armee, way to go with your writing and processing and identifying the next piece of processing!  :thumbup:. I hope it's going well.

Quote from: Chart on July 21, 2024, 08:16:14 PMWhat this makes me think of is the recurring theme (and importance) of creativity and imagination in the healing process.

Chart, we definitely need these tools, yes, especially in the face of such an insidious beast as shame.  :yes:

Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 22, 2024, 03:51:50 PMI don't really understand the whole concept of shame. I don't mean that I don't have any. I think I probably have lots of it, but I'm not sure I understand it as shame. My T has often asked if I struggle with shame and I usually say "no" or "I don't know" and change the subject.

So I am really interested in reading this thread.

And the immediate thought I had when considering the interesting exercise of putting the shame in a container and returning it was - but what if the person opens it? What if they know it is from me? They might think it is my shame even though it isn't. Even if I buried it or dropped it in the ocean or sent it to space - what if an earthworm or a fish or an alien opened the container and saw all this stuff labelled "NK's SHAME". I mean, my  logical brain knows it would not be labelled as such because it is not mine. But my emotional brain ignores all that.

NarcKiddo, I am still struggling, too, with understanding and seeing all the applications of shame in my life.  I really appreciate you opening up about what shame looks like for you.  I found your reaction to the container of shame so interesting and heartbreaking at the same time.  Hmm... using some of Chart's creativity suggestion, what would your emotional self think of burning the box to ash dust?  I know it might still feel identifiable, and that's okay!  Maybe try a different safety activity.  :bigwink:

Quote from: Papa Coco on July 22, 2024, 06:32:33 PMCurrently, I am deeply entrenched in the book Letting Go: The Pathway to Surrender, by Dr. David Hawkins. On pages 29 to 31, he lists the Emotional states that we put ourselves into on a list from lowest vibration to highest. The lowest is Shame.

Papa Coco, yep, this definitely resonates (with very little vibration, though, lol)!  Thank you for sharing your deeply personal stories about how shame manifests for you, mostly with fear.  I guess the thing that is motivating me to explore shame is the thought that it is causing harm to myself, which is the last thing I want to do.

---

I have one small experience from yesterday's therapy session to share.  I'm at a point of cognitive and emotional dissonance.  My overall life goal is to live in inner peace.  I need to reconcile that desire for a life of inner peace with my current situation of:

• processing past trauma being anything but peaceful, and
• feeling shame (via the Inner Critic berating myself) about living a peaceful life.  [God, this doesn't make one bit of sense!  Why would I do this to myself?!  It doesn't fit with my values of love or inner strength.]

Okay, so the first counterpoint is true and can't be changed.  Processing trauma is just gonna suck.  But I don't have to accept the second one.  Leave shame at the feet of others, where it belongs.  Or in a container far away to decompose, if we want to be fully compassionate and not blame anyone in particular.  Just as long as it's not with me!

I deserve a life of inner peace.
I deserve to live my life as I choose.

Thanks for reading all this,
   -Cascade
:grouphug:

Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 22, 2024, 03:51:50 PMShame I definitely know about surrounds body issues. My mother mocked my ugly feet and my crooked teeth and my lanky hair and my fatness and - well, you name it. When she wasn't mocking she was actively working to fix these faults. I am very aware of my physical appearance and even though I do not any more subscribe to my mother's views of how I should present myself, I undoubtedly feel a need to control how I look.

I have a huge fear of having any kind of spotlight put on me. I guess that is tied up with shame and a fear that I will be found wanting. Best to hide in the background.

I fact check things I say. I will double-check the meaning of words I might use, or their spelling, despite the fact I know perfectly well already. If someone tells me something interesting I may report it back to my husband. He will then ask questions I did not ask them. He is just interested, but I get angry and defensive when he does that. It makes me feel like I should have obtained the information he is interested in and that I am lacking because I did not think to do so. I guess that is shame?

Thanks for sharing these experiences NarcKiddo. Your last paragraph here especially was helpful in describing a phenomenon I haven't been able to put into words myself.

Regards,
Aphotic.

Quote from: Cascade on July 26, 2024, 03:31:56 PMI deserve a life of inner peace.
I deserve to live my life as I choose.

Oh boy... oh yeah! Indeed. This resonates deeply.
Thanks, Cascade

Hi Chart,
How did you know I needed to come back here to explore shame some more today?!  You and all of us definitely deserve inner peace and to live life as we choose.

Without more details about what prompted this for you, I'll just say I hope you are finding some measure of inner peace.  Also, I think that choices are probably the most power we can have in this life.  For me, it's hard to remind myself that I am sovereign over myself and deserve to have that power to make my own choices.  I hope your resonance brings you some of your own power to live the life you choose.
   -Cascade

Hi group,
I feel intense shame for lashing out recently and letting my inner critic take over with feeling like a gullible fool (https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16202.0).  It wasn't even really about me or the current friendship.  But I sure made it about me, though!

I have to be careful about expressing my shame without it coming from the inner critic.  Is that even possible?!  Hmmm, what are we supposed to do at this point?  Hmm.  Maybe ask what the inner critic thinks I need to be protected from?  Right now, the answer is, "Everything!"  LOL
:doh:

Maybe I'll come back to this a little later.  Everyone's comments, pokes, prods, and nudges in good directions are welcome.
   -Cascade

Cascade and everyone,
I'm learning in therapy that I have 3 "layers": The body, the emotions, the intellect. They all interact, but the element that connects the three is what could be called the "soul". This is the center, the being that is me, my true inner "self". My therapist has explained that this inner spark is indestructible and eternal.

The point is that I can come to this center from any of the three layers of my "exterior" self. However, when the emotions go against the body, which in turn can go against the intellect, there will always be redundancy, there will always be backtracking. If we observe our emotions intellectually, this is limited. If we look at our body with only our emotions, again this is limited.

Shame is an emotion that can be viewed intellectually or experienced in our bodies, and we can have emotions that produce other emotions. So we turn around and around, especially a few days later  when we wake up and start seeing the situation from another perspective.

There is nothing inherently wrong with doing this, but my therapist has suggested looking at each individual situation from my true Center, my spark. Emotions, physicality, intelligence, will waver, change, come and go. But my Center is eternal. So when one of my three layers "acts up", one solution is to look at this layer ONLY from the perspective of the eternal center.

I'm currently trying this. I open a dialogue with the overwhelming emotions I have through my eternal Center. (Cultivating this eternal Center is also an interesting idea and is coming slowly as well... but I full know it's there, feel it, and receive immense comfort from it already).

I also look at my body from this eternal Center. Intellect is the same.

This eternal Center seems ALWAYS to have the right way of "reacting" to my three layers. I find it easy and fluid.

My therapist seems to me to be combining all the elements of my dysfunction due to trauma in a way that not only makes sense to me, but also seems to be working. All this is a metaphor, as usual. But it's more than a tool. It's a concept that seems to be supported all over the place. It's just a question of bringing things into place in the right order, and placing things in their proper position.

We are all the center of the Universe.

Yep, love it!  💗

This is a great reminder to connect with our true, higher self.  I know what I need if I can just calm down, connect, and listen.  Easier said than done sometimes.  Thanks, Chart, for putting it into such eloquent words!
   -Cascade

Hi all,

Coming back to this thread after reading a little more in John Bradshaw's book about shame and the inner critic. He suggests that a lot of our shame is bound up in internalized parental voices who were also shame bound and passed it along to us because they were unable to deal with their own emotions. It's also interesting that I feel more inclined to deal with the fantasy, or wanting the fantasy of a parental bond, than dealing with these voices.

I very much feel "something" around making mistakes, which I think I'm slowly starting to uncover is shame. It's like a freeze/badness feeling, but as NK mentioned, I don't think I could've outright identified it as shame.

I'm also interested in doing more of his exercises around uncovering the inner critic as I understand the ICr shows up when we're not supposed to do something, and is an extension of those voices which would criticize (shame) us for doing it. For me, like Bradshaw suggests, I think these voices are quite unconscious and automatic.

Sending everyone support,
dolly

Chart, I like the idea of coming back to your eternal spark. An eternal spark doesn't seem as daunting as the idea of the Self in IFS. I don't know why? Maybe because Self has so many connotations when you're growing up in a narcissistic family (which is probably good and bad for healing).

Continuing on in the Bradshaw book about shame and internal self-talk, he talks about the kind of distorted thinking that happens in shame-based people.

"Our shame-based identity is predicated on the belief that we are flawed and defective persons. Such a belief is the foundation for shame-based thinking, which is a kind of egocentric tunnel vision, composed of the following types of distortion."

Catastrophizing:
A headache signals an impending brain tumor. A memo to see the boss means you're going to get fired. Catastrophizing results from having no boundaries or sense of worth. There are no limits to the "what if s" that can occur.

Mind-reading:
"She thinks I'm immature or she wouldn't ask me these questions." These assumptions are usually born of intuition, hunches, vague misgivings or one or two past experiences. Mind-reading depends on projection. You imagine that people feel as bad about you as you do about yourself. As a shame-based person, you are critical and judgmental of yourself. You assume others feel the same way about you.

Personalization:
Shame based people are ego-centric. If your self is ruptured, and it is painful to experience your self, you become self-centered.

Shame-based people relate everything to themselves. A recently manied woman thinks that every time her husband talks about being tired, he is tired of her. A man whose wife complains about the accelerating price of food, hears this as an attack on his ability to be a breadwinner.

Personalization involves the habit of continually comparing yourself to other people. This is a consequence of the perfectionistic system that fosters shame. A perfectionistic system demands comparison. "He's a much better organizer that I am." "She knows herself a lot better than I do." "He feels things so deeply. I'm really shallow." The list of comparisons never end. The underlying assumption is that your worth is questionable.

Overgeneralization:
This distortion results from toxic shame's grandiosity. One slipped stitch means, "I'll never learn how to sew." A turn-down for a date means "Nobody will ever want to go out with me." In this thinking distortion, you make a broad, generalized conclusion based on a single incident or piece of evidence.

Overgeneralizations lead to universal qualifiers like, "Nobody loves me . . . I'll never get a better job . . . I will always have to struggle . . . Why can't I ever get it right?... No one would love me if they really knew me . . . " Other cue words are all, every and everybody.

Overgeneralizations contribute to a greater and greater restricted lifestyle. They present a grandiose absolutizing, which implies that some immutable law governs your chances of happiness. This form of distorted thinking intensifies one's shame.

Either/Or Thinking:
The chief mark of this thought distortion is an insistence on dichotomous choices: You perceive everything in extremes. There is no middle ground. People and things are either good or bad, wonderful or terrible. The most destructive aspect of this thought distortion is its impact on how you judge yourself. If you're not brilliant or error-free, then you must be a failure. There is no room for mistakes.

Being Right:
As a shame-based person, you must continually prove that your viewpoint and actions are correct. You live in a completely defensive posture. Since you cannot make a mistake, you aren't interested in the truth of other opinions, only in defending your own.

You get no new data that would help you change your belief system about yourself.

"Should" Thinking:
Should thinking is a direct result of perfectionism. In this thought distortion you operate from a list of inflexible rules about how you and other people should act. The niles are right and indisputable.

The most common cue words for this thought distortion are should, ought and must. A shame-based person with this thought distortion makes both himself and others miserable.

Control Thinking Fallacy:
Control is a major cover-up for toxic shame. Control is a product of grandiosity and distorts thinking in two ways. You see yourself as helpless and externally controlled or as omnipotent and responsible for everyone around you. You don't believe that you have any real control over the outcome of your life. This keeps you stuck and in your shame cycle.

The opposite fallacy is the fallacy of omnipotent control. You feel responsible for everything and everybody. You carry the world on your shoulders and feel guilty when it doesn't work out.

Cognitive Deficiency or Filtering:
In this thinking distortion you pick out one element of a situation to the exclusion of everything else. The detail you pick out supports your belief about your personal defectiveness.

Filtering is a way to magnify and "awfulize" your thoughts. This triggers powerful shame spirals.

Blaming and Global Labeling:
Blaming is a cover-up for shame and a way to pass it on to others. Blaming lends itself to global labeling. Your grocery store has rotten food. The prices a"re a rip-off.

Blaming and Global Labeling are ways to distract from your own pain and responsibility. They are thought disorders and keep you from honestly looking at yourself and feeling your own pain.

I thought these were quite eye-opening and I see myself and my distorted thinking in quite a few of them. I guess one of the ways they're helpful is to begin making the unconscious, conscious and looking at the ways shame, and I am perpetuating the shame, in my life.

DV, thanks for all that. I knew it, briefly, but it really helps to go over it again. I see myself in almost all those patterns.

Thanks for the support of the "Center" idea, Cascade and Dolly. I'm hard at work on this idea.

One thing that attracts me to this "spark" or Center idea is that it seems to be closer to the "source" of my root trauma. I'm still working this through, actually creating a guided tutorial with my therapist around this idea. I'll try and update the Neurofeedback thread soon with more info.
 :heythere:

Quote from: Cascade on June 23, 2024, 04:49:29 PMSo, I'll write now about what I've learned about the concept of shame, and begin to explore my own shame.

---

TW
Shame is so insidious that exploring it can bring up more shame.  I believe a tremendous support system, whatever that might be for each of us, is necessary to do this.  I am doing this with my trauma-informed therapist.  I feel safe with her and I wouldn't be ready to do this without her. 

First, she shared a video file (mp4) of a John Bradshaw seminar about shame.  ...  If I was able to, my homework was to watch the video and journal about it.  So I did.  Some of my notes, in different font, are below.


Two Types of Shame

• Healthy Shame:  humility, permission to be human, lets us know we have limits (so be careful), gives us emotional power.
• Toxic Shame:  state of being such as "I am a mistake," (Note: Blame is about doing), submit to control, perfectionism, criticism, abandonment, neglect.

Cycle of Shame

	Shame-Based Identity	→	Distorted Thinking
	↑		↓
	Life-Damaging Consequences	←	Acting Out Cycle

Healing Shame Through Externalization

Shame hates exposure.  It keeps ourself from other people and from ourself.

The Externalization Process

• Surrender:  Release and give up control.
• Socialization:  Participate in a group.
• Self-disclosure:  Uncover yourself; become vulnerable.
• Sensitive to the system you came from:  Awareness of roles.
• Self-talk:  Use affirmations; stop negative thoughts.
• Self-love:  Choose to ask for what we want.
• Spirituality:  Reach the silence; sense inner life.

Everyone please feel free to comment and/or extend any of this.
  -Cascade
[/quote]

Thank you for these notes Cascade. I'm considering doing a weekend of trauma-informed group therapy, somewhere I've been before. I see that the Externalisation Process you listed takes place in these types of weekends, it (or most of it) just happens in that particular setting.

I didn't realise there are two types of shame. For me, shame is Type 2.

I note I've written on this thread before, but I have absolutely no memory of having done so, not even when I read my own post. iirc I tend to blank on topics that are really difficult for me or blank about having written particular posts. 'Shame' is a big topic for me, and I suppose one that needs a lot of work, with help, so not to do on my own. atm I'm ashamed of not working, not earning my own money and of my therapy taking so long. There will be more beneath that though. I realised today when listening to bits of 2 trauma conferences that shame is the big problem for me atm and is where I need help, i.e. therapy.

Hi Blueberry,

Good for you. Dealing with shame is really tough IMO and it often hides and makes us unaware I think of the things we're doing.

I hope your group work goes well.

dolly

Thanks Dolly,

The group is actually full, so I won't be going. But that's OK. Now that I've decided to stay with my current trauma T anyway. There are obviously a lot of things I could be working on on my own as well as with both my therapists (trauma and occupational).

Hi Blueberry,

I'm sorry that didn't work out. I've been sort of half looking at groups (ie Adult Children of Alcoholics for example), and am finding that facilitated group meetings are tough to come by in the UK it seems, even in London. Though did see a weekly group for £40 a pop (yikes!). After hearing Patrick Teahan (and I believe Kizzie has mentioned it too) talk about progress in relational group therapy, it's been something I've wanted to try. I have attended one group before about seven years ago and even though it was facilitated, it seemed quite aimless with a lot of trauma dumping. I guess, like finding a good t, these things take time. I might try looking for Zoom groups where I'm from as well.

Sending you support,
dolly

Blueberry - I think your post has disappeared, but I'm glad you found something that worked for you and what you need.

Chart - those are just my needs for a group. I find it to be overwhelming at times if there's a lot of emotional dumping with no direction/constructive reflection, which sort of feels like being responsible for someone else's emotions and that's something I had to do a lot of growing up. On another forum, I saw others mention something like a strolling group for cptsd survivors, which seems like an informal way to connect with other survivors without necessarily having to share/be the recipient of sharing. Again, just my two cents

Definitely posts ghosting!
Can't remember what I wrote exactly... But having a response to something I don't remember exactly what I wrote is interesting. It actually gives me all sorts of different reflections... But I'm gonna maybe write them in my journal as apposed to here... question of pertinence to the subject here...