Something I noticed with my therapist is that I have, so far, extreme difficulty even saying this happened, although it did. Like, it's actually hard to say the words. Does/Did anyone else have trouble saying it, as if it would make it finally real or even change you for saying it at all? I sometimes wonder if this is how people feel when they have to get up the ability in AA to actually say "My name is X and I'm an alcoholic." Like that is a pivotal point? I hope this makes sense.
(note: I am aware from years in the medical industry of how being able to recite the facts of an event is different from being able to emotionally state and process it.)
For me, yes 100% true. I actually cannot get the words out. I've shared enough that my therapist knows what happened and I'm trying to be able to talk about it but it is so hard.
I think shame is a huge component but I still haven't managed to completely sort out what else I'm feeling that makes it so hard. Maybe also not feeling safe enough? Even though I have no reason to feel unsafe in therapy. I don't know yet if it's a pivotal moment since all I've been able to do is answer questions in the affirmative.
I'm sorry you have had to survive this as well.
For me, I tend to have a sharp memory; sometimes I wish I didn't remember what happened at all. There is one lengthy time gap, that I'm just as glad I don't fully recall all that took place; just know too well the pain and fear it still stirs. That something fairly awful happened then, I'm sure of; but I've lost interest in trying for full recall on that one anymore. Therapy is about healing, with no more than enough memory to begin pointing away from the past hurt, and to the present/future healing or continuing to find a way to heal better.
So I'm able to relate most things that happened, but am also quite coy and careful about providing deep detail I'd feel edgy or uncomfortable with. In therapy, sometimes it's just a matter of how at ease the T's approach makes one feel. I've been with my current T a few years and as time passed, it did get easier than with previous T's.
Outside the realm of therapy, though, it's much trickier regarding details. The reactions can run all over, from doubt to disbelief to excessive and phony-seeming sympathy.
Minute details, in any case, aren't always necessary -- it involves incidents that can't be changed, as far as what happened. What can change is how one handles it now, and how one deals with any leftover pain, grief, anger, and/or other aspects of the memory that still hurts. So it's a bit of a mixed bag as to how much detail is necessary. Yet it's still better emotionally if I can feel safe enough to tell some people I trust enough.
Even in therapy, though, I've noticed that yes it's easier to tell certain details, but still hesitate on providing the full gory details, as they can derail my current state of working on how things are affecting me now, and what I can do to live with myself.
My current T is also good at not pressing for more details than those that serve the purpose of outlining what the result was, more than every detail. So I guess, in my experience, the key has been the high trust level I've reached with her. Still, there's definitely details where I can get to the edge of my comfort zone (really none of it is fully comfortable). There is definitely a point at which the details are too powerful for me to feel safe (safe in the sense of not becoming ill, for instance). The T is good at not forcing the issue, but as stated is very good at sensing when more detail isn't as vital as to focus on how I'm healing beyond that past and continuing to work with where I'm at now. She's just good at discerning where I'm at with any disclosure. That said, there are definitely times when I can emotionally crash, and she has a knack for just being supportive before we get back to moving forward.
I hope you begin to feel better as you progress along this rocky road. :hug:
Absolutely agree CactusFlower, it's when we've uttered words out loud, especially when we aren't dissociated, when we're present enough to hear and feel them that they have such an impact. It feels to me like "Well, there I've said it and now I can't ignore or push away the issue anymore. Now I have to deal with it and it's painful and scary." It's also a relief in a strange way or so I've found.
Nine months ago, a visit to where I grew up sent me into a tailspin. I had been working with my current therapist for over 3 years, and I had not been willing to even begin to address childhood trauma with her. I came back early, got myself into her office, increased my visits, and started sharing my background.
I had shared the SA, or the parts I remember, with a couple of previous therapists, but it has been different with her. For the first time, I actually really trust that a therapist holds me in unconditional positive regard, which we also call unconditional love. And I could actually be really honest.
Now, I'm starting to put feelings together with the scenes in my head. Those feelings slip into place, and I want to pull them apart again. But I don't. It's making me not just "know" it was real, but "feel" it was real, too.
Sometimes progress just doesn't exactly feel like it.
For what it's worth, for years even with my therapist...I never referred to it as SA...tho it was, because I just couldn't stick those words to it somehow. I always referred to 'the Grotty stuff that happened'.
And it varies from day to day. For ages, I could trot through my experiences in T, almost recite it like a shopping list....but it almost didn't mean anything, it's like it wasn't me. It took a long long time before I actually felt something about it that I could identify.....like grief.
Just wanted to add that my T is big on taking things in small bites versus rip the bandaid off so I can slowly learn to tolerate the feelings that come with consciously remembering (and feeling) my trauma.
I like this because I know I can take things in my stride when I am ready.
Last session I said something out loud I hadn't wanted to speak about and I did not fall apart like I would have in the past. It was more a sense of relief than anything that I'd finally said it and I credit our slow and safety conscious approach for that.
Mary Ann, I get what you're saying about reciting it. I used to work in an ER and I learned that when people are in shock (i.e., trauma), Descriptions often become very short and factual because the emotions are blocked from it to cope.
And yeah, my T agrees with the little steps at a time as well. Sometimes they bring up a big thing, but then we work on the parts of it.
Very hard to say some words. Even in my journal, I write the first letter only or just a blank.
I had a very rough experience with this only yesterday, when I dared to share a very few details of some very personal injuries relating to SA, to my spirit as well as the bare bones physical.
And ... yet again; this person I somewhat trust proved difficult to be wholly trusted. One part of me relates to how cruel and invalidating their ignorance is. Upon reflection, though, no matter the words, my only reluctant conclusion is that they'll never really get the gist of what I'm talking about.
This has had me feeling bad, that I can't seem to relate how awful this stuff really was. It's alright, I guess -- I'm so used to the loneliness, but it seems to reach new depths as I watch my hopes for understanding crash yet again. :'(
It is so hard for me when all I look for is for someone to see me and witness my trauma and accept it. And they don't.
But we do.
It is always the fault of the one bearing witness if they fail to do so. Sharing the trauma is an act of huge courage. And it hurts for that to not be seen. and to be yet again unsupported. But if you can, take away that you had that courage. It speaks of beautiful things of you.
I hate how I think I can just say it and instead I hesitate with long pauses and lots of "umm"s between words, it always feels like I'm performing a role of "distressed person" and that I'm not very convincing. Then if I start getting teary, I feel that the other person is rolling their eyes and thinking "Oh, there she goes again, UGH" or something. I've started to get angry about how much my needs and feelings must have been minimised and silenced when I was a child.
Sorry to hear it's so difficult for you Bach :hug: I think that's why Pete Walker suggests we do have to tap into our anger so we can say yes it happened, it was real, and I am suffering because of it. You can definitely get angry and say what you need to here and no-one will roll their eyes as Dragon Dancer and Bermuda suggest. We've got you :grouphug:
I think it is perfectly normal to struggle getting the words out. I have this too. I think it describes how much of a wound it has left behind, of difficulty in coming to terms with it. Saying it out loud requires that you believe it yourself, that you believe your experience, and your intuition. I think that has been robbed of many of us here.
But this is not something you do to get attention. This is not something we struggle with because we're too sensitive or weak. We struggle with this because we've been hurt, violated, traumatized. And while none of it was in any way our fault, the struggle is real. Your intuition is real.
One thing I've struggled most I think is believing myself. Because no one believed in me. But bit by bit that is changing. One thing that helps is writing. Sometimes it is easier to write the hard thing on paper instead of saying it out loud. Also I started saying "something happened" to the few I trust with this. It is not, in my opinion, necessary to go into details, until it is for you.
I hope you find things that work for you and that one day you may look back to this day and see how very far in healing you've become.
Just got a lot more real here in my world. We've been dancing around the issue for awhile now. Just referring to it vaguely as "younger stuff" as opposed to what happened at 19. But today the words were spoken in therapy. That was sort of OK but he told me he'd send me a recommendation for a book to share with H given my recent multi-day triggered freak out. He sent a photo of the book cover: Allies in Healing: When the person you love was sexually abused as a child. Kind of landed like a punch to the gut.
I need to talk to my H tonight and explain why I have been so weird this week. I haven't been able to look at him. I have been hiding my things and literally tiptoeing around the house trying to erase my presence. Weirdly too thru this I forgot about my T. I forgot he was there and a resource. Hes been there for me for more than 5 years but forgot he exists. I had no idea I had anyone who could help me all I could think was that they should have killed me and that I can't fix this.
Hi Armee :hug:
I definitely get that punch to the gut.
You are doing the work, and making your way. However you want to handle yourself is OK. Forgetting is fine too. I don't need to say, "Listen to yourself" since you already are. I do recognize the place you're at. Virtual hugs, if you can accept them. If you can't know that healing energy is flowing your way.
Armee
I'm glad you brought this into the open on the forum. I'm sorry it's all happening, but glad you are open about it.
My T often reminds me that I can call him when I need him, but, like you, I completely forget he exists at all when I need him the most. I guess that feeling of being alone can't exist unless I forget that there are people on my team...so, somehow, my parts help me forget I have him on my team, so they can play out their drama inside me.
You really tugged at my heart when you wrote "...all I could think was that they should have killed me and I can't fix this." I'm very glad you felt okay sharing that bit. I've felt it many times. I know you from the forum posts to be one of the kindest of souls. You not only survived, but you came out of it with a deeper and more caring way of connecting with others. I, for one, am a better person because they didn't kill you.
I often play the Scrubs jingle in my head when I feel tired of trying to heal. I sing, "I can't do this all by myself. I'm no superman."
As you work through this EF, your friends feel it with you. You're not alone. You're not required to be a superhero. It's okay to just be the beautiful soul that you are right now. The group hug emoji is made up of people who feel lonely but are finding a way to stick together...to feel utterly alone, together. (That's part of the cognitive dissonance of being who we are: We are alone together). Even in EFs.
This post takes less than a minute to read, but it took me an hour to write. That's because, like with many of the other people on this forum, I care about you enough to want to say the most honest and comforting things I know how to say. A lot of people here care about you also.
Even while you struggle, you can trust that the people here are on your side.
:grouphug:
Thank you so much Papa Coco and LakeLynn. These posts made me tear up. Thanks for being here and taking the time to read and lift me up with your words, both of you. And those who read but can't respond.
Thank you Papa C for relating to the thought of not being able to fix this and wishing for an alternate outcome, and for forgetting about your support system when you need it most. The way I look at it, similar to you and your parts, is I've been dumped into that isolated part of my brain where this drama lives. That part of my brain doesn't have access to the other parts of my brain, like the part that knows I have a therapist to turn to. All it knows is what is was like back then, and back then apparently I was all alone and couldn't fix it. And also for some reason I needed to hide my very existence such that I was hiding all my belongings so I wouldn't be noticed. It's a pretty weird feeling to catch yourself as an adult taking your shampoo out of the shower to hide it from sight. I'm not here. Shh.
Anyway,
I do feel better now not great of course but not fully stuck in that EF. I understand I have support at home, with T, and here. This place, you lovely souls yes, have been my lifeline through this whole thing. From working through my mom's shenanigans in her final months. Working through the fears of people dying and it will be all my fault. Working through the first memories that were allowed to emerge once she passed and left me in peace, and now it is time for this one.
Thank you Lake Lynn for reminding me that it is ok to not remember too and for the healing energy and hugs. I definitely felt those. Thank you both. 💕
To your comment, "The way I look at it, similar to you and your parts, is I've been dumped into that isolated part of my brain where this drama lives. That part of my brain doesn't have access to the other parts of my brain, like the part that knows I have a therapist to turn to. All it knows is what is was like back then, and back then apparently I was all alone and couldn't fix it."
That's a perfect way to describe it. Helpful for me to see it that way also.
Yesterday I listened to a 20 minute The Biology of Trauma, podcast about how IFS parts make us sick. Dr. Schwartz said that our IFS parts don't know it's 2024. They still think it's the day of the trauma. Healing requires us to talk with those parts and show them that it's 2024 now. This is something I knew intellectually, but today, after this interaction, it's taking on a new meaning for me. It's lighting up.
That podcast was found here: https://biologyoftrauma.com/are-the-trauma-parts-of-you-keeping-you-sick/
Thank you Papa Coco. I'll listen on my way home. Intellectually I know it's 2024 and I am 46 years old. But in that moment and specific to those reactions, no. But the more I can activate both parts of my brain...the here and now part and the part that is in trauma time...AT THE SAME TIME...the more I am able to build neural connections to bring present day sanity to those younger parts and build them an escape path out.
Yes. I went ahead and put Dr. Schwartz's books in my Audible files and am now listening to An Introduction to Internal Family Systems by Dr. Richard Schwartz. It's enlightening. While IFS concepts go back centuries, Schwartz is the person who began returning it to practices in psychology. He gave it it's new name IFS. the book is helpful. I'm learning some new things about how to bring the parts back together and blend them with both sides of our brains.
Papa Coco,
thanks for the podcast link. I'll see what I can extract. I'm not sure if you were aware of it, but they sell "products" on that site too. I was interested in Sleep Magnesium. I'm trying to address whatever I can along the sleep lines.
Armee, I trust that you are feeling a bit better. You have a 20+ year jump with your recovery process. By that I mean you didn't wait until your 60's to face things head on. When things seem tough, remember that you made a great choice to come here, learn and grow. I'm :cheer: for you.
Hello all, I just want to say your posts have deeply moved me. I hear all your expressions of trying to make sense of these traumas and am truly sad this is the suffering none of us asked for that now seems to so dominate our mental resources. For me my principal trauma came to an end when I was about four years old, so I remember almost nothing and have actually had the exact opposite experience. I have spent my whole life actually trying to name my trauma... and couldn't really until I discovered cptsd about six months ago. I don't know if I should feel lucky or what. Reading your experiences makes me think the barrier of infant memory was perhaps a good thing... only it is in fact all still there. My limbic system still captured it all. But I wanted to say something else here.
I think we must also give ourselves Unconditional Trust. I have doubted myself and my emotions and my decisions and been my own most horrible critic, always wondering what was so horribly wrong with me. And I think that has to now stop. What I do and feel is ok (even if I don't like it). What others don't understand is okay too (it is perhaps impossible to truly understand an experience you have never had). I'm not sure if this makes sense, but it is ok to not be okay. In fact imagine what you went through and it didn't have much of an effect on you... THAT would be abnormal in my opinion. That I am in pain, that I panic, that my brain shuts down around certain people, that I find myself crying in the morning. Aren't we rather reacting rather "appropriately" considering the events that triggered these emotions and reactions? This is the testament of our deep sensitivity and profound humanity, no?
So I say, don't judge yourself so harshly if you can or cannot do a certain thing or are ready or not yet ready to take the next step as you see it. Jacob Ham (clinical director of trauma at Mt Sinai hospital) suggests we treat ourselves as we would treat a child. We don't judge or criticize children for things they are afraid of or unable to do. We give them time and support and love. So we should do the same for ourselves. Be kind and loving to yourself. I look myself in the mirror once per day and repeat ten times "I love you". Most of the time I don't actually "feel" this way but I do it anyway because I know it SHOULD be true, so I'm not going to give up on myself. Of all the people in our lives, why should we not love ourselves the most? That being said I thank you all and send you all my deep love and support. Your work and sharing so enriches me. I love you all, and I'm working on loving me as much as I can. Gros bisou !
Quote from: Chart on March 13, 2024, 08:29:56 PMI think we must also give ourselves Unconditional Trust. I have doubted myself and my emotions and my decisions and been my own most horrible critic, always wondering what was so horribly wrong with me. And I think that has to now stop. What I do and feel is ok (even if I don't like it)
Thank you Chart, for the focus on trusting ourselves, regardless of our feelings, actions, and coping. The critic inside me is not as strong as it once was and challenging it repeatedly allows me to brush all the extra pain aside.
Thank you for writing such a loving, affirming post. These are lovely thoughts to carry into a restful night. :hug:
Wise words, Chart. Thank you for being here and sharing. :hug:
Even older stuff I don't remember other than as you say the limbic system. But I do think no remembering factually has helped me get my feet under me before digging in. If I knew the horrors I don't think my life as I know it would exist. So 3 cheers to not quite remembering.
Quote from: Armee on March 13, 2024, 10:54:12 PMBut I do think no remembering factually has helped me get my feet under me before digging in.
Positively agree with this.
Hi everybody, just wanted to say that I've decided to stop my emdr therapy. It's mainly financial but also this thread made me think a lot about what the goal was in searching for more prenatal memories. It was actually really scary to stop with my emdr therapist. I felt like I was copping out. But came back to this thread tonight and I really feel I made the right decision. At least for now. As always, thanks for the topic and all the reflective angles discussed. It really helps.
It's smart to listen to yourself and know when the time is right or isn't right for going in there. Healing is important I think but the timing has to be right and the pace slow. You're not copping out.
Chart, everything Armee says is solid. I agree.
Nobody can tell you how to feel or even why you are feeling a certain way, and without knowing the most you can do for yourself is to HONOR your intuition. So many times we've been told we're wrong,somehow we misunderstood or that we're not important enough to be taken seriously.
HOGWASH! Lies, and ways people use to manipulate. Healing takes place on its own time line. One of the hardest realities I had to accept. You can always return to that method or therapist if you choose later. Circumstances are always changing. Now you know what's helpful and that contributes to your foundation.
Hey Cactus Flower, just wanted to bring this thread back to you and see if it has been helpful for the question you asked early on about admitting it happened? :hug:
It took me over 55 years to even acknowledge to myself that I suffered SA. It was only 2 months ago that I even spoke about it to my T.
It is easier to acknowledge it here because no one here actually knows me. The complete anonymity makes it safer.
With all the things that happened to me the SA was the single most demeaning and impactful thing to happen. I left the SA completely out of the book I composed because that was too painful to recount.
I still struggle to discuss my SA with my therapist and very cryptically mentioned it to my wife.
Little2Nothing, Your short "simple" post speaks to me like thunder of the utter, total and absolute struggle of overcoming childhood trauma. No one can judge what you can or cannot do. No one. There is no rational understanding anywhere that can grasp "why" this happened to you. It just did. You are the innocent who has paid with pain your whole life. That you can say anything at all is a profound testament to your enormous courage and strength. I respect you so very much. What you have shared is a gift and inspiration to me. Thank you. I wish you wholeness and deep wellspring love to you and the innocent child you were never allowed to be.
Kizzie-
Yes, I do still check in on this and everyone has been very helpful. There is so much wisdom in our shared experiences and so much healing in knowing we're not alone with our feelings.
Little2Nothing
Thank you for sharing that post on April 13 above.
I thought I had processed my own stories of CSA as deeply as they could be processed, and yet, reading the recent posts by yourself and one or two other OOTS members as of late has begun to strip away another layer of varnish I hadn't really noticed was there.
I've been dealing with the sadness and frustration of CSA for 40 years. I realize now that I had assumed that was as close to the memories as I was ever going to be able to go. And yet, something about the posts being shared this past week by yourself and a few others is giving me permission to dig a bit deeper and to address the hidden, lost horrors of what really happened.
This is a good thing. The fact that my brain is willing to release the core files and actual memories is an unexpected relief. I feel like I've been carrying 300 pounds of baggage that I didn't realize I was carrying, and that maybe, just maybe, that weight might fall off soon, leaving me to feel lighter and nimbler, and more grateful to still be alive today.