Out of the Storm

I journal most things and discuss much with my therapist, so this journal will be sporadic, I expect. It is likely to contain bits and pieces that I would like to think more on and I invite comment as I process whatever it is I write about.

I've been thinking about starting a journal here for a while. Several topics have popped up but none that made me want to take the plunge.

However, one thing that was very new to me when starting therapy was the inner child concept. As I get to grips with it I've had some interesting experiences. Mostly little NK stays hidden, or plays up emotionally but won't let me near her.

Several weeks ago I had an interesting encounter with her. My father was in hospital for a cancer operation and my mother happened to say to me that she missed him. This surprised her as much as it surprised me and for some reason that statement made little NK very sad. I thought about it and journaled it and ultimately discussed with my T at the next session. But the interesting encounter was during the night when I woke in the early hours remembering my mother's statement. Little NK got out of control sad and I found myself crying. Really, properly, majorly crying. And yet, for the first time ever, big NK was still there, just a little. So big NK spoke to little NK and tried to soothe her. Big NK tried saying "It's OK, I'm here." That made no difference. Then Big NK said "Tell me why you're so sad." That was completely the wrong thing to say as Little NK had a total meltdown. (Having discussed with T, I realise this is because my mother is emotionally engulfing. She snoops and pries. Telling her anything is dangerous. Even saying you don't want to discuss something indicates a weak point she will then work at. So asking Little NK to divulge anything about her emotions is not the way to go at this stage.) Thankfully Big NK was still there enough to try saying "It's OK. You don't have to tell me anything." At which point Little NK calmed down very quickly and I was able to go back to sleep.

However, what prompted me to start this journal was another encounter with Little NK that I had yesterday. I had dental appointments for a check up and the hygienist. I particularly hate hygienist appointments. This one was long because they could only fit me in with the student hygienists, who were very gentle and thorough but took absolutely ages as there were two of them and they both had to confer at each stage.

When I was a child I had many dental appointments. My teeth were not great, I was not all that diligent about cleaning them, and I needed a lot of orthodontic work. Little NK was never scared of the dentist as such, since mother had decreed she must go; I think she just dissociated. Especially at the orthodontist who was a really horrid man. As I was being treated by the hygienists yesterday I had the strongest feeling that Little NK had taken charge. She was taking the view that neither she nor I was enjoying the experience, but she has long experience of being in that chair and knew it would all be fine. While I am not scared I do always clutch the arms of the chair in case of a sudden pain but on this occasion I was able to relax and just let Little NK take care of it.

Whenever I have thought of the inner child concept I have assumed that Big NK should be the one looking after Little NK. It never occurred to me that Little NK might want to help sometimes. I was horribly parentified by my mother as I grew older so I am not sure if Little NK is still trying to do that now. But the experience at the hygienist did not feel bad or wrong.

I still find this concept really strange to try to wrap my head around, but now that I have consciously experienced the presence of Little NK I find it easier to contemplate and work with.

Quote from: NarcKiddo on June 20, 2023, 04:09:08 PMBut the interesting encounter was during the night when I woke in the early hours remembering my mother's statement. Little NK got out of control sad and I found myself crying. Really, properly, majorly crying. And yet, for the first time ever, big NK was still there, just a little. So big NK spoke to little NK and tried to soothe her. Big NK tried saying "It's OK, I'm here." That made no difference. Then Big NK said "Tell me why you're so sad." That was completely the wrong thing to say as Little NK had a total meltdown. (Having discussed with T, I realise this is because my mother is emotionally engulfing. She snoops and pries. Telling her anything is dangerous. Even saying you don't want to discuss something indicates a weak point she will then work at. So asking Little NK to divulge anything about her emotions is not the way to go at this stage.) Thankfully Big NK was still there enough to try saying "It's OK. You don't have to tell me anything." At which point Little NK calmed down very quickly and I was able to go back to sleep.

Hi NarcKiddo,
I really appreciated reading what you wrote here, about your interactions with Little NK and Big NK's responses, and how Little NK responded to what was needed at the time.  It reminds me to try different approaches/things to say with my own Littles.

Hope  :)

Thanks, Hope. I am glad that was useful.

I've recently come back from holiday. We went on a cruise and my husband's relative A, who lost her husband last year, came with us. The invitation was extended by me and we all agreed that we were not 'on holiday' together. The idea was she could experience a holiday on her own but with friendly faces nearby. It worked well.

I struggle a little with any trip more than a couple of days because of uninterrupted time with my husband (H). We sleep in separate bedrooms these days for various practical reasons (he snores, is obese and takes up the entire bed, visits the bathroom many times during the night etc). It works for us. At home we have a very predictable routine of time spent together and time spent apart. I need time on my own. So does he.

So, being in the same cabin for days on end has its own challenges. But we have done this sort of holiday for many years now; we have onboard routines that work for us. This type of holiday works well for me for loads of reasons and emotionally it works because there would literally NEVER be any danger of running into my mother on a cruise ship. She has dreadful sea sickness, and also likes her holidays to be dirt cheap. There are no associations with her and this is good for me. I've never really thought this through before the holiday I've just had.

Towards the end of the cruise we were at dinner with A and the subject got round to H's family dysfunction. Everyone has fallen out with everyone and it is a total disaster zone. Has been for years. He keeps out of it as much as possible. So A and H are no stranger to family issues. A and her late husband often confided in us their issues with my H's mother and siblings.

Earlier on the cruise H mentioned how he thinks his sisters came off worse than him from their mother's abuse. I've been reading a book which touches on this so we discussed it.

During the conversation with A, H asked me to tell her why I think his sisters have some of their issues. So I did, though it rang some warning bells for me. But he then went on to tell A that I have problems with my mother in particular and my family is every bit as dysfunctional as his. As he started along this path he asked me if it was OK for him to continue. I said 'yes', so he did. Thankfully not for long and it was the end of the evening so we went to bed.

Overnight I fretted about this because of course it was not OK at all. The end result was OK in that I do not mind A knowing. I thought it through and worked out the problems.

Briefly, they are that any discussion of our family with an outsider was forbidden by my mother. So any discussion not started or anticipated by me immediately turns me into a terrified child. Even ones started by me do that, but the more I tell my T and people here, and find the sky does not fall, the more I can build new neural pathways and not always have to revert to a state of terror. But it will take a long time and I am completely not ready to be taken by surprise. Added is the fact that my mother does not permit secrets to be kept from her. If you indicate you do not want to discuss something she will not leave it at that. It is a signal of a weak spot and she will dig until she has found out what she wants to know. So my way of dealing with it is that everything is always fine and I am always happy to discuss whatever it is she wants to discuss. I then grey rock, lie, and steer the conversation as much as possible to safer ground. I do this as a matter of course, now, and not just with her. So H asking me if it was OK, when I was emotionally a scared child, was never going to get an answer other than 'yes'.

Next morning at breakfast A was not there. H said 'what did you think about that discussion with A last night? Was it OK?' Normally I would have said yes. especially since my default position is that everything is always fine. But I was feeling quite brave, so I said it was mostly fine but not completely. He said 'did I go too far talking about my siblings?'. And I said 'no, you can say what you like about your own family to your own family. My problem was that you brought me and my family into the discussion.' I was about to continue with the contents of the paragraph above, but I lost the ability to speak.  I managed to stutter out 'it's OK' but could not explain further. Then he said 'you're obviously very upset' and I tried to reassure him that I was not upset because of the end result: A knowing there is a problem in my family. H said 'Now I feel guilty' And I started crying and had to compose myself before a waiter brought a handkerchief on a silver tray!

I managed to tell H that he should not feel guilty and I would explain when I felt able. To his credit, he said he would accept my statement and not feel guilty and wait for me to raise the subject again. That is exactly what he did. I talked things over with T this week and then last night I felt ready to try to explain to H.

The conversation went much better than I feared. I did not break down. I got all my points out. He did not question or interrupt me. At the end he said he fully understood all that I had said. I felt a lot better afterwards, though a bit tearful in the immediate aftermath.

This is huge for me. I have gone from being 'fine' to admitting to him there was a problem and trying to tell him. I couldn't at first, but have eventually managed. Normally I would just brush it all under the carpet forever.

Wow! NarcKiddo! Wow! I'm so amazed at your ability to later go back and talk to H even though it was hard to do so. Also I have the same patterns for the same reasons. Anytime my mom would know something bothered me she'd dig and poke and do it more so I became a master of obfuscating my feelings and needs in all situations so literally no one not even my therapist can read me. You just flexed a muscle that over time will rewire those hard-worn neural pathways. You did amazing!

And I'm sorry that happened in the first place. I understand, I have a SIl that likes to talk trauma and stuff and I stay super tight lipped about myself while she shares. I feel bad that she shares with me and I withhold everything, but we should have the right to choose who we share with and what we discuss about it. For me. It's because these things are so very traumatic that I cannot continue being myself and being ok in the presence of their being discussed, and I want to protect that from happening. Family time and vacation time might not be the time you want to feel traumatized, in fact you intentionally choose to be as untriggered as possible by going somewhere you will never associate with Her. I'm so glad you could talk to H about it and that he responded responded way he did.  :hug:

I am so happy your H understands, and even though he made a mistake, you two were able to discuss the feelings involved and acknowledge each other's feelings. I think it is a good sign that your husband was able to reassess his own guilt after you told him that he shouldn't feel that way. My friends and I still struggle with that, but we are also all still figuring out out lives in our early 20s!

I also understand the feeling of having an emotionally engulfing parent, my Grandmother who raised me was very similar. Over time as I grew up, she became less nosy, but that's also because I stopped telling her when I was feeling depressed period. It is good however that you have a T and H that you have healthier boundaries with.

This is huge for me. I have gone from being 'fine' to admitting to him there was a problem and trying to tell him. I couldn't at first, but have eventually managed. Normally I would just brush it all under the carpet forever.

NK, this is fantastic.  Excellent work. It sounds like your husband responded very well too. 

That is so very awesome for you NarcKiddo. And I appreciate you sharing.  It gives me an idea of what a situation like this should look like. 

 :hug:

that was huge, NK.  i've had a problem w/ the word 'fine' for quite a while.  too many times we're taught to just say we're 'fine' no matter how much distress we're in.  i knew there was an acronym for the word, and i found 2: 'feelings inside not expressed' or, from aerosmith: "effed up, insecure, neurotic, emotional."  that's been so true in my life, and i always think of this when someone tells me they're 'fine'.

for you to recognize how not 'fine' you've been, how that situations was not 'fine' for you is tremendous.  it feels to me like you've broken thru a barrier to your real self.  well done!  may i send you love and hugs?  :hug:

Thank you, everyone, for your love and care. And for getting it.

sanmagic7 - thank you for looking up those acronyms. I had no idea they existed, but they do validate the fact that "fine" is a loaded word. I am going to pay more attention to when and how people use that particular word. In particular me, with my mother. I may be giving her more information than I care to, if I use it.

NK, WOW!!

Big awareness's and action, I love to hear about these life changing events. The FINE response was a go to expression for me. Once I got into AA and stared hearing all the different definitions of the acronym, "FINE" no longer worked for me.

So gad you have compassionate people in your life.

Well Done!

Hi Narckiddo,

That was a very challenging thing you did - well done. I know I would have taken him coming after my family as an attack and went on the defensive. I come from a NPD family as well and there was always a blame game rolling around. I'm also not used to expressing my feelings or emotions as they were always shut down, denied or taken over. It's a great skill to know when you are upset, step back and gather your thoughts, come back to it, and not jump into reactivity.

Sending you support,
Dolly

Well, today I am STEAMING MAD.

My father was diagnosed with bowel cancer recently. He is in his 80s but you would think he was younger if you met him. This has obviously been stressful on the whole of FOO. He had surgery which went well and he recovered fast. Just after I went on my recent holiday he had a follow up appointment and I emailed to ask how it had gone. Answer came that the pathology report was not good and he was waiting for an appointment to discuss next moves. The UK health service is pretty poor, delays are huge and there are regular strikes. All things considered, he has received very good treatment thus far. So I have been waiting to hear about the appointment and supposing it might take some time, which may not matter in the great scheme of things as maybe not much can be done while someone is recovering from surgery.

I spoke with my mother immediately on my return from holiday as she rang to demand my input about some minor drama. No mention was made of anything else. She barely remembered to ask how my holiday was.

I spoke again today and she casually dropped into the conversation that he would be starting chemo imminently. Obviously the appointment had taken place so I asked further details which she gave readily enough. She had been on the phone to a friend and been telling them all about it as the friend's partner has bowel cancer, so it's not as if it's a subject she is not facing.

So why am I steaming mad? I'm not even totally sure.

Part of it is reliving the situation when my grandmother died. She is the only person with whom I have ever felt truly safe and by whom I have felt unconditionally loved. I was lucky enough to be able to spend some weeks for a few years staying at her house with no other members of my FOO. When she was dying nobody told me. My mother casually dropped into a conversation one day that my father had gone to her deathbed. When I expressed surprise, mother claimed she thought she had told me my grandmother had gone into hospital. Er, no. So I had to hotfoot it to the other end of the country to see her. That experience was all kinds of awful because nobody had seen fit to tell my grandmother she was dying, or that they had withdrawn all nutrition. I was not allowed to, though she must surely have started guessing when I turned up. It was also the days after 9/11 and the nurses had the ward TV turned to the news channels so all the poor woman would have heard in her last days was ghastliness. (I complained to the nurses about that, which was quite amazing for me in those days, as I would not normally have said boo to a goose.) But at least I got to see her and speak with her before she went.

I don't have a close relationship with my father. I'm not really sure we have what could be described as a relationship. So his terminal illness is not something that strikes deeply at me, except at a basic human level, in that I would not wish that on anyone. The prospect of him dying before my mother is grim, however. Although he is older, everyone (her included) had assumed she would go before him. This may of course happen yet. Who knows?

My mother reacts badly when the spotlight is not firmly on her so my father's cancer is not sitting well with her from any point of view. She has for many years told me she cannot bear people who have cancer because she thinks they play on it to their own advantage to get sympathy. Projection, anyone?! No doubt we will get more of this as time goes on. She will certainly not like having to take care of him if he struggles with chemo.

There is turbulence ahead, for sure, and I am just glad I started therapy when I did. I have already handled the situation much better than I know I would have done had it happened before therapy.

I guess I am mainly steaming mad because we have always had this great pretence of the close family who all have each other's back. Nobody else can be trusted except FOO. And yet you don't bother to inform me of a pretty major bit of news relating to my father's cancer?  :pissed:

yeah, NK, this stuff just brings up all the worst of what we went thru and it affects us, sometimes blindsides us, emotionally.  i also heard 'family is everything' yet when i needed them they weren't there.  i feel awful that you're having to go thru this.  i hope you can keep taking care of yourself as best you can.  thank the stars you're in therapy and it's helping you get thru this.  love and hugs :hug:

 :hug:

Gentle hugs my dear. I'm so sorry that your mother didn't tell you, despite rubbing it in that she had told some other person. That alone is gratingly anger-making.

They really do all use the same playback. My mom would do the same to me, about her own cancer, despite me being her sole caregiver.  Or she'd tell me it had gotten worse when it had gotten better, that she was dying when she was not, and that she was not dying when she was. She stopped me from going into her doctor appointments even though I drove 2 hours to bring her to them multiple times a week. Just so she could continue to manipulate the situation.

I share this so you can really see and believe it's a pattern of intentional manipulation, in case like me you still question whether it's you overreacting or misinterpreting things. It's not.

But you just explained very well why you are so (very justifiably) angry. You have past proof that she will be cruel and self-absorbed from what she did to you with your grandma. I am so sorry. What she did was hurtful and very very wrong. She knew you were close and resented it and punished you for it and then lied that she did it.

That was my mom to a T, too. It makes my blood boil writing that to you being able to so clearly see the selfish and painful games involved in what your mom is doing to you. I hope you can find another way of getting information about your father's progress, because your mom has proven there's no path to trust there.

Just to reiterate, cause I dragged on there a bit...you have every right to be boiling mad, with steam out your ears and everything. AND you are not imagining this, making things up, misunderstanding, misinterpreting, or exaggerating anything. This is what people like that do.   

Thanks for your replies. You know, Armee, I did not even think about how annoying it is that she had been telling her friend about it, but obviously that has fed into my general annoyance.

I asked my sister if she knew. She did. Apparently the appointment happened when I was still on holiday and they did not want to spoil my holiday. All very reasonable on the surface. Except that I had already (at my own request for an update) received the bad news, namely that the pathology was bad and chemo unlikely to be offered. Then they get offered chemo, which is arguably good news, but keep that from me in case it spoils my holiday. And then she continues keeping it from me in the face of more exciting drama to tell me about. OK, they knew I would visit soon and indeed I was going to visit this week but had to call it off due to a cold. So now I am in the ridiculous position of feeling that it is a good job my cold is really grim so I called off the visit, instead of dragging myself there with a lesser cold and possibly infecting someone who is just about to start chemo.

Sigh. At least it will give me plenty to talk about at my therapy appointment this week. As if I didn't have enough already.  :fallingbricks:

I've realised that not being told about my father's latest health news is just part of the classic narc discard/pick up again pattern of behaviour.

I'm like some toy that is sometimes in favour and sometimes flung to the back of the toy cupboard.

I dared to go on holiday and then be ill and not visit so maybe I was being punished for that? Being shown that I am not important in the greater scheme of things?

My sister was visiting recently so there was plenty of supply. A few hours after she left mother started messaging me with updates and now we have gone back to the usual levels of contact plus requests for assistance with odd bits and pieces.

In among the conversations my mother actually remembered to ask after a long-standing but not acute health issue of my husband. Nobody in my FOO has asked whether I am feeling better. That last sentence feels a bit moany and full of self-pity. I don't mean it that way. A cold is a cold. Mine was nasty but hardly life-threatening. But if someone has been unwell enough to call off a planned visit, would you not ask after their health the next time they are in contact? I can understand my father not doing so. He has not even asked how my holiday was. That is a measure of how much he is actually struggling with his own health issues, since he is normally unfailingly polite.

I didn't read your thoughts as moany or self-pity. I recognized the hurt of not being cared for and valued. It hurts when the people who are supposed to love us unconditionally seem oblivious to us. :(

Narckiddo

You're most likely right, that the lack of inclusion in your dad's health is definitely a punishment. Just remember, bullies always go after the nicest person in the room. They're bullies. They like inflicting misery onto the people who will be most affected by it.

To narcissists, inclusion/isolation is the goal of every game they play. Their goal is to make you feel like you are not included in their drama party. No doubt they've been doing it to you their entire lives. Why should this situation be any different?

The notion that they don't ever ask you how you are doing is a sign that they don't really care about you. You're not being whiny when you bring that up, you're being a detective who is noticing a behavior pattern meant to hurt you by miserable people who want to hurt you so they don't have to face the truth...that THEY are unlovable and need to use tricks and strategies to manipulate family.

Narcissists know they are unlovable. That's what fuels their hatred for us good people. Jealousy. People love us because we're kind and lovable. Nobody loves the narcissists. Family has to be manipulated into caring for them. Nobody wants to be near them or their hateful ways and, deep down, they know it.

I'm sorry they are using the non-inclusion play on you right now. Logically it should make us happy that people we don't like are choosing to stay away from us. But this is family and it hurts even though it shouldn't. I'm sorry they're doing this to you. My family did it to me so many times I can't count. So I know that it hurts...even though it shouldn't.

Thanks, storyworld and Papa Coco.

Today, I just want to say that I blithering well hate emotional flashbacks. My husband has unwittingly unleashed the most enormous one which has resulted in my running to old behaviour patterns of shutting down and people-pleasing as that is emotionally the most familiar and therefore easiest thing to do. I have a therapy session today, which you would think would be good, but since my reaction has involved my having to change the date of next week's session I am now unsure whether I even want to talk to my T about it. I guess I should. I'm scared she will tell me to be strong and put myself first and keep my therapy session to the original time. So I changed the date before she could say that. And I should probably tell her that, too. But I don't want to. It's probably going to be a session full of me crying, and I hate those. Ugh.

 :hug:

I hate them too, especially when I can see what's happening but still feel utterly powerless to stop it and the ensuing behaviors.

Hey if you have spare tears at your appointment you can allot a few for me, if you don't want them all! I can't cry at my appointments, would love the release. Too bad we can't trade a little. :D

 :hug: I'm sorry you're going through an EF.

I think it's important to do what is helpful and comfortable for you.

When I was seeing a T, it was about wanting to share and being ready to share.

I can empathize with not wanting to be told to be strong when you're going through a rough time. 

Sending support and best wishes to you!

NK, if you do end up crying w/ your T, i hope those tears can be channeled into release, relief, or cleansing.  i know it's difficult to cry, sometimes, cuz of all the pain that goes w/ it.  i'm not very good at it myself. 

i don't know about being told to be strong - i've had that too many times in my life.  isn't there any room for just feeling how you're feeling?  as someone told me, maybe just curl up, cry, sleep, be away from the world for a bit.  those EF's can be nasty.  i think it's ok to just let yourself be every so often.  love and hugs :hug:

Thanks, everyone.

Yes, I cried. I also told her the things I was reluctant to tell her. As I said to her "If I can't tell you, then who can I tell?"

She was lovely and supportive and helpful. As she always is. I don't know why I feared she would tell me to be strong because she never actually tells me to do anything. Everything I do is up to me. She might make suggestions of things I could think about to try. She might tell me if she thinks I am avoiding something. But that's as far as she has ever gone. I think once I get into an emotional child state, as I do in an EF, I assume people will treat me like my mother would. Especially my T since I guess she is sort of taking the place of a mother in terms of helping me to learn how to manage my emotions. So I expect to be engulfed and directed what to do, which would usually be whatever I would least want to do.

Like I said to someone else on another thread, every time I interact with my T and the sky does not fall as I assume it will, I am building a new neural pathway. Eventually I hope to have enough lived experience of good instead of danger that I may be able to start expecting that. It's a long, slow job. And very frustrating when my logical brain tells me one thing and my emotional brain tells me another. It would be nice not to be so terrified of pretty much everything. So I just have to screw up my courage and tell things to my T. And now that I have experience of therapy it really grinds my gears if I hear people allege that therapy is for the weak.  :pissed:

Well put, NarcKiddo.  :applause: It's interesting how your self-expectations didn't pan out as you feared might happen, and was able to relax enough to find an honest outlook.

What you said also speaks to the joy of finding a T who can truly be there, present for you and aware of your needs. Reminds me of my own T in that way; sometimes I just wanted to let her tell me what to do, but she never fell for it -- trusted me enough to know I had the capacity to find my own way forward.

it's good to see you, and maybe, just maybe, you'll be able to find more of the good kind of surprise in store as you venture past all those old self-defeating habits and beliefs that hold us back from finding our way again.

I 100% understand not wanting to tell my T how I really feel NK, in part because I don't want to know or say it out loud, then it's out there forever, and because I really don't want to feel any pain. My T will ask me if she can question or challenge me about something she's picking up on. Most every part of me screams "No way, absolutely not" because I'm so afraid it is going to be painful and I'm going to fall apart. But, there's a tiny part that's really curious and does want to know where she might go. So far I've said yes and I'm still here to tell the tale.

I think NK it's similar to when you say "If I can't tell my T who can I tell?" If not my T asking the harder questions then who? She is like your T from the sounds of it - gentle, kind, supportive - it doesn't get better or safer than that.  That said, I so agree how tough (and courageous) it is to keep going.  :applause:    :cheer:   Bravo to you and to all of us who keep going and doing the hard work!

Well, I've finally got out of that EF. That was a tough one but I am glad I saw it for what it was and could work through it.

I have a weekend with my FOO coming up soon. That will be stressful but I was talking about it with my T yesterday and I have another session with her before I go, so I will be well prepared. Since starting therapy I have found my FOO interactions less scary in prospect and I have felt less triggered when they are happening, unless narc mother is directly targeting me. However I am much better at grey rock and deflection so she targets me much less these days as I am probably quite unrewarding in my outward reactions to her. I remain as emotionally drained after them but nevertheless this is really good progress.T has reminded me that even if my mother is directly targeting me it is her stuff, not mine. It may be unfair and unreasonable but I have not brought it on myself and do not have to take it personally. Easier said than done, but, yeah.

I have realised one of the problems of these annual weekends with FOO is that while I am away my husband has time to himself and he will often make plans for us. He thinks they are things I will like and he is a bit like an excited kid when I get home. He wants to tell me the plans. He thinks they might cheer me up after what he knows has been a stressful time for me. Then if I don't display immediate enthusiasm he thinks I don't like the idea at all and gets all deflated. In truth it is just that I need to decompress. Any suggestions, however nice, or requests for my input, feel like emotional missiles raining down on my head and I cannot deal with them. I talked this through with my T yesterday. She agrees it is a great idea for me to discuss this with my husband before I go and to explain that until I tell him I have decompressed I do not want to be asked to think about anything or make any decision about anything whatsoever. I just want to tell him about my trip and hear about his time or even just watch TV and discuss nothing in particular.

I know that no matter how prepared I was and no matter how much grounding I did, going anywhere near my mom, my mom's possessions, or my mom's house was never without impact, even if everything went fine. Even yesterday I noticed a reusable shopping bag that had been hers on the floor of a closet stuck behind a bunch of stuff. She's been dead almost 2 years and still the sight of something as basic as that throws me. Or I saw her handwriting on a file the other day and had to throw it away. So I Will be with you in spirit this weekend, with a great big roll of invisible bubble wrap to wrap around you for some protection. Cause this stuff is no joke. 

T once told me, when my mom was still alive, that when I would interact with her it was no different than sending a soldier who still had PTSD back into war. He said it might sound like an exaggeration but it wasn't at all. He is not one to talk like that. It took him years to name this as PTSD for me and his primary orientation at the time was CBT, not trauma therapy. I don't say that to make things feel bad. But to be gentle with yourself and accepting if you do have a difficult time after your visit that this is extremely difficult. And even a 1% reduction in distress before or after is huge given the amount of distress interacting with these people cause.

It's super wise to talk to your H about what you need before you go.  :grouphug:

Hi NarcKiddo - agree with Armee, preparing for something, doing cognitive rehearsal, planning out grey rock - all good in theory until something gets under the armor and you're caught off guard.  The feelings of wanting to avoid that sucks and what you're doing is (as Armee says) no joke. Easier said than done indeed. If it helps to think of us silently there with you, holding your hand if you need it, reminding you that it's NOT YOU, and you're having a normal response to what you are experiencing...I am keeping you in my thoughts NEXT weekend.  Thanks for the clarification.  Can still send good thoughts this weekend as well :)

Hoping the conversation with your H goes well.

Oh I so understand the H coming up with things and then picking a time when all I need is to let my system settle. He gets the deflated look too which I totally get so I finally told him as directly and respectfully as I could that I just can't handle much except stress free time after therapy or other triggering things.

He gets it now, that it isn't personal, so hopefully your H will get it too. Good luck with that and this weekend. That old grey rock and not feeding the N was the best advice I ever got from OOTF. I am no longer a target for my NM or NB although if I opened that door even just a little ....  My NM is still stepping and fetching for her and she is not overly kind towards him. I sort of feel bad for him but he's an N too so he can give as good as he gets. I'll leave them to it.   

Thanks, all of you. I will certainly take comfort and strength from knowing you all have my back.  :grouphug:

It is not actually the weekend just about to come upon us, it is next weekend. So I will have some actual as well as virtual OOTS support because one of our Zoom sessions is scheduled for the day I arrive there. I don't see why I should miss it just because I am in the viper's nest so I plan to pretend I have an unavoidable work conference and take myself off to somewhere private with my phone.

Armee - what your therapist said about it being like sending a soldier back into war really resonates with me. My own has not said that but ever since I told her about these family gatherings she has been doing her utmost to help me find the resolve to boycott them, or at least refuse to stay overnight as I live close enough that I could go home each evening. I've been surprised at how she never misses an opportunity to make me justify to myself just why I am putting myself through the occasion as she is generally very gentle with me and does not push me hard in places that hurt.

Hi Narckiddo,

Im a little late but I'm with you in the preparation for FOO weekend and during the weekend.
You have an "army" behind you.   ;)

I agree with your T and everyone - this is no small feat.  It's like going in the lion's den to me so I really admire your courage and willingness.  Yes, an even better description is "like sending a soldier back into war".

 :bighug:

NK, i think it's a great idea that you'll have a zoom session while you're in the midst of FOO wkend.  and, yeah, got your back, too.  we're here for you.  strength in numbers and all that. love and hugs :hug:

My parents have had a problem with their home telephone. I fully get this is a little more than a nuisance in their case because my father has cancer and the hospital tends to call them on their home phone (though they both have mobile phones too).

It was pretty clear to me that it was a problem with the phone equipment and not the line. The equipment is old and gets heavy use as my mother adores lengthy conversations.

They got an engineer round on Monday morning to check the line. My mother then posted a barrage of updates on the FOO WhatsApp. Literally a blow by blow account of how the engineer could not work out what the problem was (although I knew this must be rubbish because she said what messages the equipment was giving and it was obvious even to me that it was the equipment at fault and not the line). I get message previews on my watch so I could see what was going on without showing I had read the messages. The barrage got ever more intense. The engineer was 'sweating blood'. The engineer was 'having trauma'. Then she included things like 'you may have to phone us so the engineer can check the line'. I merrily ignored it all. Since both parents have mobile phones, and it is inconceivable that the telephone engineer does not have one, they had access to ample telephones with which they could call the land line.

She must in the end have got a neighbour to feed her drama because the neighbour has now given them some telephones he no longer uses so she has not had to buy new ones.

My sister did not respond to the messages either, though she works in an office so had more of an excuse.

I rather enjoyed being strong enough not to allow myself to get sucked into any of this drama. But the real glory? We are now being given the silent treatment. I was expecting a call Monday evening or yesterday to test out the new phones from the neighbour. Nothing. She normally gives us endless daily updates on what my father will or will not eat. Nothing. My sister cracked early this morning and posted a message on the FOO WhatsApp asking after our father. No reply as yet and it is now lunch time here.

As for me? Happy as a clam. Silence is golden.

well done, NK, for resisting the drama.  silence certainly can be golden.  :thumbup:   love and hugs :hug:

Oh my goodness I am smiling ear to ear at your silent treatment. Enjoy!!!

Oh my gosh the drama. Whew how exhausting! Good job staying out of it.

They are so petty, aren't they? Ignoring your sister's question. My mom would do stuff like that. If I told her I could talk between 5pm and 7pm she'd intentionally call at 710 (being retired and a shut-in, mind you). If I didn't answer to keep a boundary (an important one, around time with my kids) she would then ignore my calls when I'd call her back. Oh my goodness they are so twisted.

Enjoy that silence as long as it lasts! 

Hi NarcKiddo,
That period of silence does sound good.  You kept your boundary, and sounds like that went well.
Hope  :)

Silence is golden for sure.

I smiled and am elated at your success and that you're happy as a clam. So so awesome!

 :hug: 

Narckiddo, this is great!  Isn't it great when the trash takes itself out, and you don't have to?  Meaning when a PITA relative ignores you, and it's peaceful and blissful without them.  Great job on not getting involved in the drama and ignoring all the messages!  :cheer:

Greetings from the vipers nest! It has not been a good day. Went out for a meal last night with my husband to our favourite restaurant. That was nice but the manager gave us a hefty cocktail for free at the end of the night. It was lovely but I slept badly due to impending FOO visit and ended up with a hellish hangover. The journey here took three times longer than it should due to traffic. I started having palpitations before setting off and all through the journey. Mother is on edge and thus extra volatile. The only good thing was the OOTS zoom group. We discussed some difficult topics and we were really able to support one another. And it felt kind of subversive in a good way because I had it while here and pretended to FOO it was a work call. It's just gone midnight so I'm about to have the first sleep of two here. I'm feeling better than I expected and did a good job at managing my stress and keeping my guard up. So that's pleasing.

Neighbours are away so their kids partied loudly in the garden until 4am! The silver lining to that cloud is that it gives FOO a conversation topic that is not triggering

 :cheer:

Well you can probably keep her going on on that topic if you prompt her!  I'm so glad the Zoom group helped, it really helped me too.

I do not miss those required family events - my mother loved them, and I hated them but when I was not aware of her NPD I felt I had to attend. It really helped moving away from them and having an "acceptable" excuse like a posting when my H was in the military. Somehow at one point though we all ended up in Halifax NS, including my NB.  I just could not take it so we moved to the other coast of Canada.  That did not go over well but I found with my NM if we made up stories, in this case it had always been out dream to retire near the Rockies, she would buy it and she would then play the "good mother" with others about how happy she was we had found our dream home. It actually was awesome and the not having to see my family was the bonus.

Sorry, I'm blathering on but I do hope you are managing OK and remember to grey rock as you learned at OOTF (don't give them anything to load the drama gun unless it's about someone else), and don't JADE (justify, argue, explain or defend). Those two things worked incredibly well for me.  I think you said you've started not giving her much of a response and she heads off to find what she wants from someone else. 

Also, we aren't there in body but certainly are in spirit. :grouphug: 

I am out of there!  :cheer:

The weekend went pretty well, all things considered. NM was complaining of some health issues but they improved over the weekend. She was generally on good behaviour and I was very much in control of myself and my reactions. So the whole thing was exhausting but not really bad. In some ways that brings its own difficulties because I can easily start doubting myself. Why did I dread it so much? Is the problem me rather than her? etc etc. You know the drill, I am sure. In truth the only reason these things go as well as they do for me, these days, is because I have some measure of control over my reactions. I am able to see when I am starting to struggle and stop the rot before it gets worse. I have tools to help me manage the situation and steer people away from problematic topics.

Anyway, that's that done for another year. Now visits can go back to the short ones which I find pretty easy to cope with.

glad you're out.  love and hugs :hug:

Quote from: NarcKiddo on July 30, 2023, 03:55:11 PMIn truth the only reason these things go as well as they do for me, these days, is because I have some measure of control over my reactions. I am able to see when I am starting to struggle and stop the rot before it gets worse.

You cannot ever let your guard down with an NM regardless of their being on "good behaviour."  I've made that mistake far too many times!  Well done on getting through it and not getting sucked in  :applause:  :hug:

Happy that you made it out virtually unscathed NarcKiddo!

I am able to see when I am starting to struggle and stop the rot before it gets worse. I have tools to help me manage the situation and steer people away from problematic topics.

That's the key isn't it? We get to a point where we know /learn how to look after ourselves.  Great stuff!

 :cheer:  :hug:

Oh boy do I understand about how it's almost harder when it goes well. It's just so confusing.

Amen Bach, I've made that mistake too many times too.  Glad you're out and safe NK and good job on managing the situation  :applause:    :thumbup:

Thank you for the support, everyone. It is so very much appreciated.

I feel that I have now fully decompressed after 48 hours. It is kind of astonishing to think that it should take 48 hours even after a "good" visit.

As I had planned, I spoke with my husband before the visit and asked him not to bombard me with any plans or decisions immediately on my return. He was very happy to oblige and in fact made sure not to make any plans at all so he could not bombard me inadvertently. That was sweet. However, in a mark of just how stressful these visits are, I can report that while we were sitting in our summer house relaxing before dinner on my first night home he played me some song he had discovered and asked me what I thought of it. Even that was almost impossible for me to deal with in any meaningful way. I didn't like to tell him that because he had been so careful about trying not to bombard me. Yesterday (second evening home) he asked if I was fully recovered and I found myself saying yes, even though I was probably only 60% there.  :Idunno:

Mind you, I might have recovered faster if the usual family triangulation had not been going on post-visit. A rich cousin has written a book about his family and is throwing a very swanky party in a few months time to launch the book. We are all invited. I do not wish to go. It will just be standing around talking to a load of people I have barely met and won't meet again until some funeral or other. Cousin's invitation has made it clear the party is mainly aimed at his immediate family line and the rest of us are being invited because we are welcome but there is no expectation of attendance. Still, the level of notice makes it slightly awkward to claim something in the diary but it happens to clash with our wedding anniversary weekend so I had an elegant excuse and have already told him I am not going. FOO is twitteringly excited about this party and has assumed we are all going. Nobody asked me so I had said nothing, knowing it would come up at some point when my apologies had already been sent to and accepted by cousin.

When my husband came to collect me from the FOO weekend the party came up. Husband said we are not going as it is our anniversary. A silence fell. Father made some small talk about the party and the subject was changed.

Late that evening I got a message from my sister suggesting I try to change my anniversary plans so I can go to the party. I suspect this message was on mother's orders. In times gone by I would have claimed things like a prepaid trip that would be impossible to change. This time I said I was not interested in going to the party so had no intention of changing my plans. This will not go down well with mother but I couldn't care less.

such a prickly stream to navigate, NK.  i'm glad you're decompressed finally.  i get it about your H's song and he wanting your opinion and that being just too much.  we've only got so energy in our brains.  love and hugs :hug:

I hear you NK, I got really tired of making excuses and eventually just started saying no and not doing the JADE thing.    They get used to it after a while but at first it's like they can't believe you would simply say no.  It rocks them back on their heels which I kind of came to like after a while.  I hope you can get to that stage too.

It's very hard to be honest about how much these interactions mess with us. I totally understand telling your husband yes when he asked if you were fully recovered. It's also OK to go back and say it was really more like half recovered. Work in progress over here (as you've personally witnessed!)...but the more I tell my husband the more he actually understands me, and that has been such a nice feeling, to finally make sense to him.

Great job both you and H standing firm in your "no" to the party.  :cheer:

I'm so proud of you for not only standing firm in your refusal to go to the party but also being honest about why! As a freelance/contract worker I usually hide behind "big deadline" (whether I have one or not) and always wish I did not feel that I have to lie.

Pretty awesome stuff NarcKiddo!

 :cheer:  :cheer:

 :hug:

They're all going mad over this blasted party!

I happened to message my aunt yesterday as I heard on FOO weekend she has not been well. She mentioned in her reply she had heard I am not going to the party. I am getting no pressure from her, but the fact my mother (it is bound to be her) saw fit to tell my aunt is notable since my mother is not very keen on the aunt and normally tells her as little as possible.

Worse, though, my flying monkey sister continues to do mother's bidding. I had made it clear to her I was not changing my plans. Since I chose not to JADE and hide behind a prepaid trip they probably now think I might be able to change my arrangements. So sister is now claiming that she thinks my father would like me to attend, that he is planning some pre-party get together, and commented that he is head of the family. Eh? I thought only aristocracy and the mafia are bothered about who is head of the family. Am I wrong? (And in any case, my parents attend church regularly and presumably are aware that, Biblically speaking, my husband is actually head of my family now. Not that he is trying to exert any pressure, but if we are talking about authority...)

And even if my father is head of the family, what on earth does that have to do with my attendance at a party arranged by and aimed at another branch of the family? I know my mother claims my father is head of that branch of the family, too, as he is the most senior in age. But so what? Why is my attendance even necessary? They are not going there to spend time with me. They see me regularly. I am not preventing anyone from going to see relatives and spend time together. The gathering is so large that there will actually be no opportunity of meaningful conversation with anyone, which is mostly why I am not interested in going. What I object to is being wheeled out like a prize pig so my FOO can put on some show of family unity that nobody is even remotely interested in witnessing. When my father heard I was not going he did not say "What a shame". He did not mention this planned lunch. He made no effort whatsoever to get me to come. Which is fine by me. But does rather suggest that the "head of the family" is not bothered about my attendance. And if he wants to attempt to wield authority let him tell me himself.

End of rant. I am just working through some things in my head before I make my next move.

I am now reaping the benefits of therapy, though. Had this happened a year ago I would have been sent into a tailspin and would probably have backed down. Even if I hadn't backed down I would have been stuck in a horrendous EF for weeks. I am currently far from being at ease but the immediate, acute, trauma reaction from the latest messages did not prompt me into hasty action. I was able to wait until it subsided and then start to consider what I want to do. Consider what is tempting compared to what I actually need to do to get the end result I want. Since I currently wish to remain in contact, starting WW3 is not what adult me wants to do, though part of me would dearly love it.

OMG this takes me back.  The N web is there to ensure your continued compliant behaviour so it goes into full force at first over things like this. The thing that really helped me was ranting here so continue to rant away as need be, we will support you. Think of it as counterpressure  ;D   Eventually they will likely move on when they figure out you're not going to back down or JADE. They just don't have anything to aim at if you don't JADE and the sky will not actually fall even if it might feel a bit like it is at first.

NarcKiddo, that is a lot of stuff to navigate.  I appreciate your reflections as I think there is a lot of narcissism present in some of the dynamics I deal with, especially with my in-laws, that it's helpful to read how others manage.

I replied to flying monkey but kept my message short. I made the points that my non-attendance does not prevent others enjoying the occasion and that I don't see the relevance of my father being "head of the family" since the party is hosted by the cousin. I think flying monkey is getting cheesed off with her task as I got a curt acknowledgement with no further points. I guess it will all go away or else mother  will have to approach me direct, or instruct father to.

My husband is very pleased that I am standing up to them and holding my ground. I think he sees it as some sort of victory. I don't. I am pleased with myself on one level and glad I found the strength to stand firm. I may have to find yet more. It has been tough and tiring. I resent being put through all of this. I did not deserve the narc pile on for simply declining an invitation that was nothing to do with them. I was not snubbing some function arranged by them (though they are now suggesting this by mentioning the lunch my father is planning). They simply assumed that I am some cog in their machine and will do what they do and think how they think. Well, they can  :whistling: off. I know we are not supposed to swear, but that's how I feel about it.

I have an appointment with T soon, which is good. But then she is off on holiday for 3 weeks so I really hope this does not bubble up while she is away. I'll cope if it does, especially as I know I can talk to all of you about it, but the timing is not ideal.

I did manage something good today, though. A lady I know from the gym is very keen on art and does classes. I've recently got back into art a bit and find it very therapeutic. I was put off it for years by NM for all kinds of reasons. Anyway, a new cafe has opened which has pottery painting facilities so I asked this lady if she would be interested in going with me. And she would like to do that. She also told me all about the art classes she attends and I might do that, too.

NK, all those tricks - guilt, manipulation, repeating (hoping you'll wear down), and more can be tough to stand up to and recognize but it sounds like you're doing a great job. they'll keep coming until they fizzle out.  meanwhile i'm glad you have your T, your H, and us to help you stay strong.  and, yes, resisting these onslaughts can be exhausting and stressful.  you're doing great!  love and hugs :hug:

If it's any comfort NK, I felt the same way when I started saying no - absolutely po'd I was being put through the ringer. We really shouldn't have to go through such drama and pressure but that's why and how N's are so effective. If it helps, picture how gobsmacked they are by this change in your behaviour; that's a pleasurable image I would bring up in my mind's eye to counterbalance the irritation.

Anyway, glad to hear you're thinking about doing some art. It can be some really dark art if that helps, art is art and very cathartic.  ;D

Yay!!!! Oh my gosh I am jumping up and down clapping like a happy little girl at your art friend connection. That's awesome that you asked her to go with you and might join her for classes too.

The narc drama. Lord it is exhausting isn't it? They sure can  :whistling: off.

I kind of agree with your H. This is a huge victory for you because you are asserting your right to not be bullied and to stand your ground and boundaries. The actual party is small but what you are doing is huge. And it's saying "nope. I matter and what I want matter." 

Thanks, all.  :grouphug:

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment in therapy the other day. Bach had recounted in her journal how her brain does not function when she is at her mother's house. I had only the previous evening said as much to my husband about me. I was telling the story of how a strange beeping noise at the FOO weekend had us all in a lather. It sounded like a phone but was in the region of a smoke detector. Mother said it could well be the detector battery running low because another had to be replaced a few months ago and the neighbour who replaced it commented that they had all been put in at the same time so the others would likely soon need changed. I found myself up a ladder trying to change the battery but could not get the cover off. Much panic and screeching from mother ensued until the neighbour was summoned to sort it out. And the problem was not solved because it was indeed a phone which had been lent by another neighbour and was in a bag waiting to go back to him. My husband said "but surely when you were up the ladder with your ear right next to the detector you could tell the noise was not coming from there". I stared at him and said I was unaware of anything while I was up that ladder except my mission to change the battery, and that my brain was simply not functioning.

I was chatting to my T about this, and what sort of mental place I was in etc etc. Obviously I was stuck back in a child place, desperately trying to obey mother and fix her problem. T said that stood to reason because I am so used to my mother controlling everything. And that was the lightbulb moment. She is a total sham, and she knows it. She is not in control of anyone (not even herself) and she does not have a clue. This is no surprise given her own childhood. But she has to feel in control and at the very least make others believe she is in control.

I was reminded of an anecdote I read in a newspaper article a couple of years ago. It resonated hugely. I could possibly even now write it out almost verbatim but I have never been quite sure why. The basic premise is that the author was on a walking safari in Africa. The walk was going on far longer than anyone expected. As walkers started to question, the guide reassured them that all was going according to plan. And then there came a moment when the author looked at the face of the guide, as he continued to grin and assure everyone their destination was just over the next ridge, and the author knew with absolute certainty that the guide was utterly lost. The guide refused to acknowledge this and the whole group had to walk blindly on, hoping they would eventually reach safety before their water ran out or someone got eaten by a lion.

That was my life as a child. I had no power. I had no agency. I had to obey my mother or face the consequences. I could not question her decisions or her authority. And yet I think I sensed from early on that the problem ran deeper. I was not safe with her but that was not simply because she was volatile and dangerous, because I was small and she was powerful. It was because she was not safe even for herself. None of us was safe in her hands because she had no idea what she was doing or where we were going.

Hugs, Narc, that must have been hard. I've had to silence smoke detectors that were both needing batteries and being faulty.  Every time, it sends me into a panic because it's so loud. Yet I get that you didn't hear it.   I would even say it's kind of like when you're in an accident, and someone suddenly can lift the car or something they couldn't normally do. Our brains can have so much control that we're not even aware of.

I guess that's one of the reasons N/alcoholic parents get so angry is their children question them. It might be that they will be revealed as terribly vulnerable and NOT in control.  Quite dangerous for them because from what I've read about Ns anyway, their egos are tiny, shrunken so very much in peril.

Hi NK,

I relate a lot to your dealings with your family and understand the stress of what you're writing about. The need for control stood out and how everything was fine as long as I didn't question it too much with my gm. If I did, there would be waterworks or a guilt trip, and my m was the one who would respond in anger and I just knew not to question anything. The last blow up/time I dealt with my m was when I did question her as I was hoping she would come through for me as a cosigner on something, but she couldn't answer one of the questions correctly about how many credit cards she had. I think she tried to come after me and I told her if she touched me I was going to call the cops. What a state for an adult to be in, not to mention a child.

On another forum someone asked if they tell people about their narcissistic family, and almost all responses said no, that they just tell them they're gone etc. because most people wouldn't understand. I get what you're saying and I hope you find some rest after the visit to calm your nervous system.

Sending you support,
dolly

I just have to get this story out, and it will probably be a long.

I was part of a discussion today about the lack of mothering so many of us have suffered. And how it is valuable if we can mother ourselves but how nice it would be if we could actually have experience of a proper mother.

Growing up I had an appalling experience of mothers. Mine was awful. Hers was worse. My paternal grandmother was lovely to me and was the closest person I ever had to a mother. I was fortunate to be able to spend some time with her in the school holidays but she lived far from us so regular and sustained contact was not possible. I think my mother would have become too jealous to allow that to happen anyway. My main friend's mother was a narc. She and my mother were as thick as thieves until they had a spectacular narc fallout over her son and are now sworn enemies.

My stepchildren had a mother who succumbed to drink and drugs and they had to come and live with us suddenly when she became unsafe for them to live with. I am sure I was a less than stellar stepmother - I had literally no idea how to be a mother. I suspect I may also have been jealous of their relationship with their father because I never had any sort of relationship with mine. They were old enough that I could tell them outright I would never be a substitute mother and they should not look to me for that. We muddled through and all get on fine now, so I guess something went OK.

When my stepson got married I marvelled at the close relationship between his wife and her mother. These people wanted to spend time together. They wanted to go on holiday together. Huh?

By then I had started the process of realising my mother is a narc. I happened to meet an older lady in our town, as we had the same breed of dog. We'll call her Mary. She had two daughters but one had died suddenly as an adult. Mary was not exactly looking for another daughter but she was maternal and caring. Mary took to calling at my house unannounced for a chat when she was out walking her dog. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is welcome unannounced at my house. I'd make my husband make an appointment if I only could. OK, I jest, but not entirely. But I was fine with Mary doing it.

I began to think that maybe Mary could be a sort of substitute mother to me. This thought felt good. I had not really done anything with it when my husband and I went away on holiday. My mother came to stay at our house and look after our dog. As Mary and my mother were a similar age Mary took it upon herself to invite my mother to tea and generally make herself available if mother needed any help in an unfamiliar town. My mother immediately made friends with Mary. I was only grateful I had not had time to develop my own relationship with Mary, but I have a strong suspicion my mother sensed I might be wanting to get closer to Mary.

Of course I immediately slammed my shutters down and turned Mary into an acquaintance. My mother would come to our town to visit Mary (not me). The "not me" part of that was at least gratifying. But often Mary would invite me to tea when my mother was visiting. I would get to her house to find my mother smoking. Mary and her husband did not smoke and nobody else smoked in their house. I expressed surprise. Mary reported my mother had put her coat and hat on and had said she would go out and smoke in the rain and looked so sad and pathetic that Mary could not permit it. So mother got to smoke in Mary's house, and she continued to do so on every subsequent visit, even if it was not raining.

Mary died a few years ago. Oh how my mother wailed about having lost her best friend ever. She did not bother staying in touch with Mary's husband even though he had been so kind in driving the ladies around on various outings. She visited once after the death to choose some mementoes from Mary's jewellery. She did not even attend his funeral, although it happened during Covid and attendance would only have been by Zoom. Apparently she "couldn't cope".

Ever since Mary died my mother would mention her pretty much every time we met. She would say "Oh, I miss Mary so much." Then mother started joining various local clubs. My sister and I encouraged this but when we asked what had brought this on all of a sudden, mother said "I need to find a replacement Mary."

She recently thought she had found a replacement Mary and immediately set about trying to engulf the woman. But the woman turned out to be pretty self-centred and was not a replacement Mary. So she has been dropped. A neighbour is currently serving time as the replacement Mary.

This story makes me so angry. I'm sorry. This reminds me much of how my mom was too. They all play the same games.

Hi Nk,

I'm very familar with people "taking over" things that are special to you. It's like we don't get to be present or have a voice in the world, or we will be overpowered. At least I think that's how my child self/parts interpret it.

I'm really sorry your m did that to you.

Sending you support,
dolly

That's evil, NK.  I hurt for you, reading that.  :hug:

Hi NarcKiddo,
I also feel a range of emotions for  you, feeling that.  It makes me sad, and also some anger too - that you've been through those experiences.  Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)

hope you're doing ok, NK.  love and hugs :hug:

I see I haven't posted in this particular journal this year. I've mainly been posting about medical issues in the more private journal area, but for some reason I felt I wanted to post here today.

I've been having medical investigations since October for symptoms that could be put down to any number of issues. I now have a diagnosis for a serious condition that could have been life-threatening if left to fester. And the symptoms were such that it could fairly easily have been left. I am lucky that it is actually curable with drugs and that I discovered it in time. It will take a while but I will get there.

I have kept the medical investigations secret from my parents (supposedly) but did tell a sibling. Those who have seen my other journal will know that my sibling broke my confidence and told our parents. Sibling denies having done so and FOO is going through a big round of arse covering right now, since all parties know they are not supposed to know.

I would never tell my sibling anything that I was not prepared to have the family know. So it was a test, really, which sib failed. I expected that outcome and knew my mother would never in a million years be able to keep fully quiet. She did quite well, actually, but the length of time the investigations were taking meant she tipped her hand eventually.

I kept the investigations secret partly because I could not face the constant questioning of progress and barrage of "oh, my life is over" from mother. Telling sib was stupid of me because I got a full barrage of questioning from sib. I told sib because there is some serious illness going on in FOO and I was hoping for some support as I did not attend every FOO summons. Silly me. Sib was the worst of all in pushing demands on me. Probably at instigation of mother, but still.

I have now made the diagnosis public to FOO. I toyed with the idea of not telling them, but my treatment will take a long time and I will possibly have to drop things at short notice for hospital summonses. Plus I just want to feel able to take care of myself with an explanation that even FOO will understand. Constantly fending off demands on me without an obvious "excuse" is just too hard. So I took the opportunity to make it clear I have boundaries around my ongoing health situation and that I will be enforcing them.

So far the reaction has been OK. I expected that. Past experience tells me that the reaction will likely get more tiresome as time passes, which is why I made it clear there are boundaries. When they are challenged I will have a document I can point to, saying "you were told xyz will/will not be happening".

What has been quite amusing is some of the family arse covering. Sib took the opportunity to deny, again, that my confidence was broken and to clarify that sib would not be telling parents that sib knew all along. FOO is clearly planning to hold the line. Mother has not so far confirmed in terms that sib broke  my confidence but I think that will happen in time. And it does not matter to me whether the truth comes out or not. What was interesting is that father seemed to feel the need to hold the family line by telling me the news was not a huge surprise because I have been looking ill for some time. I think this was meant to cover up the slip my mother made a couple of weeks ago which alerted me that my sibling had broken my confidence. She asked me on a very flimsy pretext if I was having medical appointments. I ignored the question and sib rushed to cover up.

The thing is that I have not been looking ill at all. Nor have I been acting ill around FOO. It is simply not safe to do so and I have since early childhood avoided giving any signal of vulnerability I am able to suppress. I have in the past been out to lunch with them in a restaurant while having a gallbladder attack and heart palpitations and hidden it completely successfully!

If my mother had the slightest chance of saying I looked ill she would have taken it in order to push me to admit to the medical investigations. Every time I have seen my father he has commented on how well I look. He may have hoped this would nudge me to say "oh, well, actually I am not all that well..." but it is a bit bonkers now to claim they all thought I looked ill but didn't like to say anything. Surely it would be quite normal and acceptable to say "Hey, NK, I don't think you look all that well. Are you OK?" Except of course they were burdened with knowledge of the investigations they were not supposed to know about and probably thought that is not a question they should ask. Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

And yes, on that note, I am the one who started the deception. It was not purely for my own benefit, though. The reason I asked sib not to tell parents was not purely to test loyalty. That was already firmly in doubt. It was to spare me the constant angst but also to spare them the constant angst of what was going on with me given my father's major health issues.

I'm not really sure why I wanted to write all of that, and write it here. Make of it what you will!

NarcKiddo,

I apologize for this, but I was laughing through most of this post. Not maliciously, but in agreement. OH MY GOSH!  You are describing a typical Narcissistic Den of thieves.

In Basic Narcissism 101 (No such college course: But I've read several books on how Narcissists work and this is true in every book I've ever read on the topic), that how it works is a narcissist sits at the top. That N then builds a team by testing people until they know who will be snitches and who won't. The snitches are then called "Flying Monkeys" who confuse fear with loyalty. They're so afraid of being victimized by their leader that they become undyingly loyal to them as a way of being safe. Maybe this is sort of like fawning? What happens next is these Flying Monkeys, and the victims that they lord over, live lives of pointing fingers, making excuses, and just simply doing EVERYTHING in their power to shield their Narcissistic authority figure from having to take any blame for their behaviors. The most common attributes in a Narcissist-led community are: Chaos; Finger Pointing; Tattling; Lying; Betrayal; Starting and fostering a lifelong treadmill of little sub-wars within the group.

I'm sorry that your FOO is like it is, but mine was the same way, so I truly know how it feels. I'm impressed by your stance. You are taking it in stride. Nothing they've done has surprised you. I was given no choice but to go 100% No Contact with my FOO, but I didn't have the healthy understanding of who they are like you have with your family.

You are someone I look up to because of your ability to see the truth and deal with it. I see a stability in you that I didn't have when I was still connected with my FOO.

So I laughed as I read. Mostly because I'm impressed by you. My laughter was a compliment to you.

Keep up the good work, my friend!

You're such a sweetheart, Papa C. Thank you. And I am glad you laughed. I like making people laugh.  :hug:

Hi NarcKiddo,
I am glad that you have been able to discover that medical issue in time for it to be treated - that is a big thing.  Sending you a caring hug, if that's ok  :hug:

Hope  :)

Hi NK,

Like PC said, I know snake pits like yours well. I know my own experiences of going through things like that, and while it has given me a wicked sense of humour, I think it's come at the cost of the little girl who was subjected to all that (and survived!). It was awful to deal with all the appearances/facades and fake realities where she had to protect herself instead of being protected as a child should be. I hope, and am glad, that you are able to distance yourself from that stuff.

Sending you support,
dolly

I feel so ill I don't know where to put myself.

My Hep C drugs arrived and I have been taking them for a week. I have not had any pains in the liver area since starting them, so that is good.

The trouble is that I have managed to get a chest infection. I started feeling lousy a couple of days before the drugs arrived. I thought it was the Hep C starting to mount another attack and smugly thought it didn't know what was about to hit it.

I have no way of knowing (yet) which of my complaints are side effects from the drugs and which are from the chest infection. I mean, obviously the rattly lungs and crazy high fever are the chest infection. The rather grim nausea I had for a few days after starting drugs is probably due to them. My resting heart rate, which should be low 60s, has been mid 90s. The absolute bone-crushing fatigue is probably mostly the chest infection. At least I hope it is because if I have that for 12 weeks I don't know what I'll do. I literally have to sit down at the bottom of the stairs when I come down, to rest before I plod off to do whatever it was. My appetite has vanished. I ate virtually nothing for 3 days. Food tasted weird and my body just said "no". I can at least eat something now, but only about half of what I should be eating.

Covid test was negative.

I did all the usual home care stuff but the fever climbed. It hit 104 at one stage but that was on Sunday and nothing functions properly at the weekend so no point in trying to get medical care. On Monday it dropped to 100 and I hoped it was on the way out but then went back to 102. So I hauled myself to the doctor. It was a difficult appointment because I was really too tired to go, but the doc can hardly listen to my chest over zoom. And if I say more than 3 words I start coughing violently. So I had to type out the history for the doc to reduce what I had to say. Anyway, she gave me antibiotics. Said they should start working after 3 days max. If they don't then I have to have a chest x ray for pneumonia.

On top of all of this, we needed a new boiler/furnace. The old one was working but 15 years old. We wanted a new one at a time that suited us, not when the old one decided to pack up in the middle of winter, as is usually the case. They're doing some good finance deals at the moment. So we had the guy round to quote on Wednesday, expecting a fit date somewhere in June/July.

Well, as luck would have it they had a boiler and an engineer available on Thursday! Yes, please, said we. Mark turned up and I instantly disliked him, But, whatever. I don't have to like my gas engineer. He finished the job much quicker than expected and seemed in a hurry to leave. You guessed it, the boiler stopped working soon after he left. But it was hard to tell because the house was very hot from the installation and it was not until Friday morning when the house was really far too chilly that I checked the boiler and saw a fault code. So Gareth came that day and gave his opinion.But he was from the Home Servicing and Repairs Department and this was (he said) obviously an installation fault. Mark came round on Saturday bellyaching about having to come out for no pay on his Saturday. He insisted Gareth was wrong but he would do what Gareth said. He could not fix the fault and gave his opinion on what it was. But he did not have the equipment on the van and his supervisor was not working that day so could not authorise the work.

The supervisor of Mark rang on Monday and said he would send Tom on Tuesday. Tom came, disagreed with Mark's view of the problem, identified another one and fixed that. A working boiler.  :cheer:

Boiler shut down again last night. Tom is coming tomorrow...

I mean, we can cope. We have space heaters for selected rooms and an immersion heater. But the main body of the house is hideously chilly as we are having an unusually cold snap for this time of year. And I am ILL!  :blahblahblah: I do not need all these workmen around the place. I just need a warm house in which to recuperate.

Because we are supposed to be going on a cruise 2 weeks today. And it's not just being fit enough to enjoy it on the day of departure. The amount of work packing to go on a cruise is huge. I could not contemplate doing any of it right now. Hubby would probably pack but I'd have to tell him what and I have no mental capacity at all right now. I could not tell someone how to butter a sandwich with any cogency! I really need this to be rapidly on the way to recovery by the end of the weekend or I fear for the cruise. Which is a very special one on a brand new ship that we have been looking forward to for a couple of years.

Sorry for the endless tale of woe. But if any of you have been wondering where I am - the answer is - in bed feeling sorry for myself.

Dear NarcKiddo,
I am so sorry to hear that you're not feeling well - and also that you're having those difficulties with the boiler and the workpeople coming round and bothering you like that.  I really hope you are able to get some rest to be able to recuperate well.  Finger's crossed that you'll feel better in time to do the things you need to do for your Cruise preparation.  Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)

On no NK, I am so sorry to hear you have been so unwell!  I can't imagine being ill and having the furnace go and tradespeople traipsing through the house who don't seem to agree on anything.  I know it isn't much but  :hug:  and I will keep my fingers crossed that you will make your cruise.

 :yeahthat:

I hear you've been in bed, but please hear me when I say that I doubt that you've been feeling sorry for yourself, unless I learnt a wrong meaning to that. In my mind that's negative, critical of yourself. With all that's going on medically where you 'feel so ill you don't know where to put yourself' not to mention the boiler problems, you have every reason to be lying in bed (!), trying to rest and recuperate and then keep warm as well.

I'm sending compassion :hug:  :hug:  :zzz:  :zzz:  :zzz:

 :cheer: no more liver pain :cheer:

Oh my goodness NK! That sounds like a very very awful illness. I am so relieved to read you've been to the doctor. Please stay on top of it if it doesn't improve. That sounds scary!  :grouphug:

Hi NK,

I find people like that very stressful, who try to blag their way through things and people who want to throw me a bunch of bs are triggering I would say. As an adult though, you've done a great job of getting second opinions and being able to deal with the problem when you're feeling down. I don't think you're feeling sorry for yourself. It sounds like a lot going on.

Not a doctor here, but it seems too coincidental that you've now developed a chest infection once the medication has been started. Perhaps the two are related, and apologies if you've already looked into this with your doctor. Probablyy just my own medical issues and oversights by doctors coming into play.

I do hope your cruise goes well though. I'm sure you'll have a great time, and whatever you didn't pack you might be able to buy along the way.

dolly  :hug:

Thanks, all. The boiler/furnace seems to be working ok. Fingers crossed, since we have been here before. The problem is not the boiler, so much as making an old system shape itself up for the demands of its new Kommandant. Tom says he has tweaked everything tweak able and twiddled everything twiddle able and we should be ok.

dollyvee - I would normally agree with you. The signs of infection were showing before starting the drugs, though. And I have combed the internet for side effects of these drugs. Fever, coughing and racing heart simply do not feature anywhere. Anyway, whatever happens I keep taking the Hep C drugs. I absolutely refuse to end up with drug-resistant hepatitis at the end of it.

Antibiotics are doing precisely nothing. Had some blood taken yesterday in case that sheds some light and am waiting on a prescription of different antibiotics. Thing is, we don't even know for sure this is bacterial so I am reluctant to stuff myself with antibiotics for the heck of it. I will have a chest x ray on Monday.

My husband and I are now trying to find a way to get me into the private hospital. Much will depend on the result of the chest x ray. But I am in a bad way. I know I must eat and wash and move around at least a little bit but I am finding it increasingly hard to do any of it. I think I need to be on oxygen and I think I need nursing care. Simple as that. I think we are going to have to accept that we won't be able to go on the cruise.

 :bighug:

Oh NK. Stay safe please I truly hope you can get into a hospital ASAP. Love and gentle hugs.

Oh no NK!!  I'm so sorry you are not doing well and we will all be thinking of you and sending positive thoughts your way. That's hard about the cruise as I know you were quite excited.  :hug:

Oh NK, so sorry to hear this. Thinking of you and sending lots of love your way!

Quote from: Kizzie on April 27, 2024, 06:31:27 PMOh no NK!!  I'm so sorry you are not doing well and we will all be thinking of you and sending positive thoughts your way. That's hard about the cruise as I know you were quite excited.  :hug:

 :yeahthat:  :hug:  :hug:

Quote from: NarcKiddo on April 27, 2024, 12:55:32 PMdollyvee - I would normally agree with you. The signs of infection were showing before starting the drugs, though. And I have combed the internet for side effects of these drugs. Fever, coughing and racing heart simply do not feature anywhere. Anyway, whatever happens I keep taking the Hep C drugs. I absolutely refuse to end up with drug-resistant hepatitis at the end of it.

HI NK,

I'm sorry too that you might not go on your cruise and get to do something you were looking forward to.

With the HCV stuff, my initial thought was that the drugs were bringing up something maybe previously undetected in the body, and not a specific reaction to the medication. Sometimes there's a herx reaction where things get worse before they get better etc, but also that maybe the HCV is affecting more than just the liver, which perhaps the doctors might have missed. Viruses are funny things. I feel like I'm overstepping here, but I did a quick search and there are pulmonary reactions to HCV. Years of growing up with people that were ill around you and trying to solve their problems is a hard thing to shake. As well as being overlooked by doctors for my own health problems. I do hope you start to feel better though and find some space for rest.

"Chronic HCV infection is, however, associated with multiple extrahepatic manifestations as well, including recently recognized effects on the lung. These include primary effects on lung function, as well as secondary effects in the settings of progressive liver disease and drug treatment for HCV."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012369215527141

This is an old study and perhaps things might have changed, but might be worth looking into a bit more.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi there NK,

I just wanted to send my love and support. I hope you feel better soon.  :hug:

Hi NarcKiddo,
I am so sorry to hear that you're so unwell, and I hope that you can get into a private hospital soon to get the appropriate nursing care.   :hug:
Hope  :)

I am in ICU with pneumonia. See you when I get better  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 :grouphug:

NK rest in good care until you are stronger.  :grouphug:  :hug:  :bighug:

I will be worried for you and sending strong healing vibes till you are out. I am sorry you are ill enough to be in ICU but so relieved to know you are being taken care of now.

I'm so sorry to hear NK,

Wishing you a speedy recovery! :hug:

 :grouphug:

ON no NK, so sorry to hear this but glad you are getting the best of care.  I hope they will chase that pneumonia right out of you!

Big, warm :hug:

NK, so sorry you're so sick, but glad you're getting the care you need.  we'll be here the whole time.  love and a hug filled w/ healing vibes for you :hug:

May you get the help you need, and feel the vibes emanating from all of us.  :grouphug: 

So sorry to hear that you are in ICU NarcKiddo but glad you are going to receive the care you obviously need right now. Rest well and another hug  :hug: and best wishes for a speedy recovery

:grouphug:

Sending love and good thoughts :hug:

Sorry to hear that NK!  :hug:  :hug:

Hello, friends. I am still in hospital but off IV antibiotics and as of last night off all oxygen as well. I did not realise until docs told me yesterday that they were having to give me 60 litres per minute of specially humidified oxygen when in intensive care. I am holding my own with no oxygen support. Waiting on a physio assessment to see how I can move around and manage stairs. I have to feel safe and confident before going home, but I think I will be home tomorrow evening if not tonight.

The people in my ward were fine when I first moved in but a terrible woman came in last night and I cannot wait to be rid of her.

Lots of tales to tell, but plenty of time when I get home. Just wanted to update you and thank you all for your good wishes.

 :grouphug:

 :hug:

Oh NK. The hospital can be such a dreadful place but also thank goodness for the care. I cannot believe how sick you got. I can't imagine how anxious you are to be able to go home and get out of there. And how anxious you might be to be able to build back strength and be able to workout again once you can you know...just breathe and walk. Hey...I'm trying to maintain some motivation to exercise. Ugh I hate it. I can only manage 5 minutes at a time for typically 15 minutes total, sometimes 30 if I'm being really really good. Thats from just not liking it, not losing stamina. I mean mental stamina yes I am losing mental stamina. Physical stamina is not the issue yet. Can you send me your excess motivation while you aren't using it? Pllleeeaaase? I won't use it all and when you are ready I'll give it all back. Promise.

Oh hey speaking of being annoying (me, being annoying)...give your horrid roommate a wicked proper American dragon-faced eyeroll for me.

Wishing you great health soon NK. You've been through a lot.

Dear NarcKiddo,
I'm glad to hear your update, and I really hope you get home and that your final night in the hospital goes ok - sending you a hug and hoping that you build up your strength and feel better really soon.  :hug:
Hope  :)

NK, so glad to hear you're better and will be home soon.  dang, i hate that this happened to you. just glad you're ok.  love and hugs :hug:

So relieved to hear that you are on the mend!  Warm wishes for your continued recovery  :hug:

Hope you are well soon. 

May you continue the pace, safely; towards home and full relief.  :grouphug:

Wishing you a speedy recoveryy NK

I got home yesterday  :cheer:  :cheer:  :cheer:

How nice to have home food (hubby is a great cook) and a proper sleep without being woken at 0530 by nurses brandishing blood pressure monitors.

Oh, and a shower. How wonderful to feel properly clean again. I have read that if you stop washing your hair it quite soon stops being really rank and turns all glossy and healthy. I have  discovered that this most certainly does not happen within 12 days!

I have to do everything slowly and take lots of rests before I get breathless. But I can manage that fine. Had a nice little outing for a Starbucks. Fresh air and a change of scene. Lovely.

 :grouphug:

it all sounds wonderful, NK.  just so glad you're back.  love and hugs :hug:

 :cheer: on being back home and on enjoying the 'small things'.  :hug:

Hearty congrats  :applause:  and may you continue to a strong recovery.  :hug: 

That's awesome you're back home NK! Isn't home wonderful after the hospital?  Something as simple as you say as not being woken before the birds are up to have one's blood pressure take. Why on earth do they do that? And real food, your own bed and a hot shower in your own bathroom - heaven.

 :hug: 

Quote from: NarcKiddo on May 08, 2024, 12:10:35 PMI am holding my own with no oxygen support.

Hey Narc Kiddo, That's great news and excellent progress. Thoughts/prayers for your continued recovery. Hugs too! :hug: 

Thinking of you and wishing you well for your recovery :grouphug:

So glad you are home and enjoying the comforts it brings!
Feel better soon!
Hugs to you.

NC, I'm so sorry to hear you were in hospital with pneumonia!  I hope that you will have a speedy recovery, and be back to good health soon.   :thumbup:

I haven't really posted much recently. Been in a bit of a rut, not felt like sharing. A few EFs coming up. Nothing drastic. Just - blah.

I've also been very good as regards my pneumonia rehabilitation. Taking things slowly but pushing myself enough. However, it's now nearly four months after I left hospital and my lungs are not really improving (I measure via an asthma monitor). I'm generally fine on a day to day basis although sometimes find myself out of breath/tired unexpectedly. I was able to ramp up the exercise a month ago in a bid to get an improvement - that is tough because my lungs are really not supporting cardiovascular exertion very well. It can be done if I just suck up the discomfort. I want the lung function to improve because the pneumonia set it back really quite far. I am worried that if I should get ill again there is not really anywhere to regress unless I regain some lost ground.

TW - medical stuff.

It is really hard to get an appointment at our GP surgery but I made one a month ago, knowing I would need to review my inhalers and general progress around now. I was expecting slightly better progress. Anyway, I saw the doctor yesterday. You just have to see whatever doctor you can get. I think I saw this one many years ago. Certainly it was pre-covid.

So I explained my lung function is not really very great and we need to discuss that. He listened to my chest and pronounced it clear. I don't know how he could be so sure because he is one of those doctors who tells you to take a deep breath and then before you are halfway through he says "...and again..." as he moves his stethoscope to another site. But they did this a lot when I was in hospital so maybe they only need to listen to a part breath. Whatever.

Then he fired a list of questions at me. When I tried to elaborate on any particular answer he would not let me and just said he basically wanted yes or no. I have had this done to me before and always find it annoying because I answer truthfully but I think it is relevant for him to know whether shoulder pains (yes) are a recent thing or, as in my case, something I have had since a teen and nothing to do with this issue. Whatever.

Then he said "those are symptoms of lung cancer. I am going to put you on the two week cancer pathway" (this is basically a fast track diagnostic pathway so people with possible cancer do not languish on the usual 18 month waiting list). When I pointed out I have very recently had two chest x rays because of the pneumonia he said "chest x rays are very bad at showing cancer".

Then he fired a few more bits of information at me (unrelated to the cancer pathway), thrust some bits of paper at me and told me to come back in four weeks.

What is wrong with people? Why could he not have said "I think your symptoms are worrying and we need to be sure they are not cancer, so I am going to put you on the two week cancer pathway..."? All the bits of paper his surgery produce are very clear about the fact that 9 out of 10 people on the pathway are not diagnosed with cancer, but by that time the patient has heard his words and got the shock.

There were various other bits of carelessness surrounding the appointment that I won't bore you with. The practice is very poor - but so are all the other local ones which is why I stay.

Of course I am glad that I am going to be checked over to make sure I don't have lung cancer. But I'm still very annoyed with him and his brusque attitude. I also do not believe that anything of note will happen within two weeks. It's a good job I am not sitting here terrified. There is, of course, an element of fear he has managed to inject but I'm dealing with that OK. What I am not dealing with well, as a result of this episode, is all the other, day to day, minor stressors coming at me. There's only so much one can tolerate.

Sigh.

 :hug:

Wow. So horribly brusque. Ones like that give docs a bad name. I'm glad you are getting it checked out but like you presume this is a case of lingering pneumonia damage. 

Sorry to hear you got a jerk of a doc, Narco.

Ive tried in the past being very very rude, testy, interrupting, and repeating questions when I encounter a doctor (or anyone) like that. Basically I become a jerk like them. This actually works to a certain extent. The message usually passes that I am not happy with this person's "manner". What upsets me about this is that afterwards I feel like I was "forced" to do that in order to get my needs met. And I don't like the idea of becoming a jerk to get my needs met. I'm even more extreme when it's something for my kids. Sadly, I feel I have to be this way with people who are insensitive and uncaring. But that kinda sucks all around...
Sorry again for your situation. I also wanted to add that diaphragm and abdominal exercises and strengthening could also help your lungs a lot. I use the Guillarme Method, but Ive not found this method in English anywhere (only French... but it's actually Swiss I think...)
https://www.methode-guillarme.com/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=D3OM9axkJ5oJpW9j&v=rml9JfEnvoY&feature=youtu.be
 :hug:

Hi NK,

I'm sorry that you're going through a lot of health stuff right now. That really sucks. I have had my fair share of doctor over the years dismiss me when I was sick and basically say it's all in my head, or something along the lines of who do I think I am. So, yeah frustrating and relatable that they don't listen. I have found a couple that did, but they didn't offer the help or answers to what was going on, and were just supportive in the measures I was taking for myself.

I hope you're able to take some space for yourself and deal with the stresses that are coming up.

Sending you support,
dolly

Thanks, everyone.

Chart - thank you for the links. I'll check them out. I have basic French so I'm sure I'll get the gist at least.

i've gotten to dread going to see docs for this very reason, NK.  too many are jerks.  very sorry you have to put up with this - it totally sucks.  i hope you do not have cancer and they find something very treatable/curable and easy to manage.  best to you w/ all of it.  love and hugs :hug:

Very cool. The video is visual which helps. I can't emphasize how much this technique is helping me. I'm actually putting my inguinal hernia back in order with this as well. I sleep better and am certain that a great deal of my trauma "processing" is accelerated by the fact that I simply breath well much more of the time.
If I can help in any way with translation don't hesitate, I'm more than willing. I've even considered contacting the folks and asking why their site doesn't have an English version... :)

To have a doctor like that sucks NarcKiddo. And I can totally understand you'd not be able to handle much more after that too. Hang in there.

Good grief, I just hate hearing experiences like what you went through and I'm so sorry it put you into a slump. I cannot believe he would leave you on the cancer pathway in such a brusque manner.  Very understandable you are upset and personally I think many physicians and specialists do need a kick in the rump. Being busy is no excuse, you must listen to your patients, it's what you do when you sign on to medicine. Many of us have had to get grumpy and pushy in return like Chart has suggested, but it's no way to interact. We all need to work to get the "care" back in healthcare.   

The project I am about to launch is going to capture these types of experiences so we can make it clear from our perspective (trauma survivors), that far too many medical (and mental health) professionals are failing us. There will be a study which will hopefully be pushed out via a medical journal, and a resource developed about Complex Trauma/CPTSD and TIC. It will be pushed out to medical education institutions (because few have education and training about CT), and made available at OOTS and the Complex Trauma Special Interest Group at ISTSS. What we have to say about our care will be the kick in the butt or reminder to offer actual care.

Anyway, I'm sorry you were shut down and then left to ponder possibly having cancer with no real care as to the impact on you.  It's inexcusable IMO.

More medical stuff - although no progress whatsoever. This is just a rant. Read at your peril.

It is now just over 2 weeks since jerk GP put me on the 2 week cancer diagnosis pathway.

I had the blood tests and a hi res CT scan done the following week.

CT scan was done at the hospital where I stayed with the pneumonia. They told me it would take a week for the scan to be assessed by them and then it would be passed to the hospital respiratory department. That department would decide if anything they discover merits their ongoing involvement or if they report back to jerk GP and leave me to him. The latter would (I assume) mean I don't have cancer so here's hoping for jerk GP!

We have an app where we can get blood test results and we are always told to check the app rather than ringing the GP surgery for results. Since it takes at least 15 minutes to get through (and that is only if there are fewer than 5 calls ahead of you - it is regularly more than 20) it is clearly better all round to check the app. So I have been, but nothing appeared. Last Thursday (10 days after the blood test) I rang the GP surgery. The bloods were taken at a hospital near where my parents live which would not be my hospital of choice but it was the only one that could do a blood test within 2 weeks. So I could have the double joy of combining a blood test with a FOO visit.  :cheer:  :pissed:  Hospital told me the results would be sent to the GP within a couple of days.

The GP surgery said that hospital does not send them results electronically as it is out of their catchment area. They send by snail mail and it can take up to two weeks for results to come. Also, the woman I spoke to said they had not chased for results because they did not know I had gone to that particular hospital. Naturally if anyone had told me any of this I would have made sure to tell the GP surgery earlier. She the promised she would get their IT department to email for results to be sent and would call me.

Today I telephoned the surgery again to check that the request for results had at least been made. A different woman spoke to me this time. She was very short with me. Confirmed the hospital can take 2 weeks to send results (the two weeks are up today) and they will not chase earlier unless it is urgent. I said "pardon me but the doctor put me on a 2 week cancer diagnosis pathway so I would assume that might signify some level of urgency". To which the woman said "Oh, well, I will contact the doctor and ask if he wants the results urgently and if he does then we will request them. Otherwise we will just wait for them to come in the post." I spent 15 minutes listening to elevator music for that!  :fallingbricks:

Meanwhile there is no particular sign of my lung function improving despite the hugely increased dose of inhaler the doctor ordered me to take. I have some concerns about this steroid inhaler because my research indicates that if I have asthma there is known benefit to it. If I have COPD there is little benefit. I don't know what I have and nor does the doctor, although he claimed last time I saw him that I have a formal diagnosis of COPD. That has never been communicated to me but was apparently made in 2022 when I did not see a doctor at that practice all year. They diagnose by crystal ball now? My lung condition has been a bit of a mystery ever since it was discovered nearly 15 years ago. However, the inhaler matters because there is evidence that long term use of steroid inhalers hugely increases your risk of hospitalisation if you contract pneumonia. So I do not want to be on an inhaler that is not of any therapeutic benefit but may in fact increase the risk of a poor outcome if I get pneumonia again. Which I am at a higher risk of, given I have had it once already.

So I really have a desire to get in front of somebody who knows what they are talking about. But I don't want to short-circuit the NHS and go private while they are running this cancer pathway, because it will be a case of too many cooks.

Congratulations if you got to the end of this diatribe! If you have the energy, please send me some calming vibes because I am really getting quite agitated about this now. And of course anxiety can manifest as tight throat, breathing issues, hoarse voice and all the things jerk GP said were cancer.

NarcKiddo, so empathize with your frustration... Calming vibes en route...
Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

 :zzz:

Oh my jeez lord! Of COURSE you are agitated. I'm agitated just reading about it. I'd probably be leaning toward private myself for another set of eyes/opinions on this since the communication is so bad. I will send calm vibes to you. You can only do so much within this system. Do what you can to get answers and then let go till it's time for the next step.

PS. Just because you are at the doctors near your FOO does not mean you have to visit them.

NarcKiddo, this is so frustrating. These medical systems are just so messed up. Hang in there if you can till you get what you need. I'm not entirely calm myself so maybe we can share agitations then.  :hug:

Dear NarcKiddo,
I am sending you some calming and caring vibes.  I am so sorry that you are experiencing this saga of attempting to get some clear and straightforward results - I really hope that they get back to you soon, and I am sending you a gentle hug of support, if that's ok  :hug:
Hope  :)

Thank you all for your lovely comments and good wishes. I am feeling a lot calmer today. I have a follow up appointment scheduled with jerk GP at the end of next week. Surely we will have answers by then, and if we do not then at least I can unload onto him face to face. Now I know what he is like I can prepare myself for all future encounters.

Quote from: Armee on September 23, 2024, 05:33:01 PMPS. Just because you are at the doctors near your FOO does not mean you have to visit them.

Thank you, Armee, for reminding me of that. You are right of course. Although my father is forever in that hospital for his cancer treatment so it would be funny/awkward if I ran into him there! As it happened I already had a FOO visit scheduled on the only day I could get that particular appointment.

Frustrating  :pissed:

I can understand how it might be triggering as well that your f is dealing with cancer and now a scare has come up for you as well.

Sending you support,
dolly

NK, a big  :bighug: for all you're dealing with right now.  love and hugs as well! :hug:

Thanks, all. I owe you an update.

TL;DR version - I don't have cancer.

I received a snail mail letter from the hospital last week with the report from the CT scan. Basically the usual pat on the head, "nothing to worry about", "give it time", "we don't want to see you". Then some notes for the GP full of jargon which of course I could, and did, Google. Micro nodules on the lung and some areas of lung collapse. Joy.  :blink:

I gave up trying to get the blood results out of the surgery and asked jerk GP when I saw him last Friday. He had them and they were fine (as I expected). He had not received a copy of the hospital letter, which put him right on the back foot. I provided him with a copy. He also saw the huge sheaf of preparatory notes and questions I had. I had no real chance to discuss anything in depth with him because he very quickly said I should have a specialist referral. That is what I wanted. Jerk GP pretty much admitted he is out of his depth here and was annoyed a) that he had not been sent a copy of the hospital letter and b) that the hospital had not responded to some requests for advice he had himself put in to the hospital.

NHS wait time is at least 4 months but he was happy to do a private referral. That is good because the consultant will report back to jerk GP and any recommended medications ongoing will be prescribed by jerk GP on the NHS. If I went through the private GP I'd have to pay full price and respiratory drugs/inhalers can be very expensive.

Jerk GP gave me names of the 2 private consultants locally. One is not covered by my insurance (and would not have been my first choice). The other had clinics at such wildly inconvenient times that I started looking further afield. The hospital close to FOO is not much further than the one I usually go to. The consultant there is covered by my insurance and when I researched him I was delighted to find his PHD studies were specifically on exercise modalities and lung function. That is EXACTLY what I have been trying to find out more about. I actually said to jerk GP at the last appointment "I need to find out if, and how, I can exercise my way out of this." To find a medic who has a definite interest in exercise is glorious as far as I am concerned. All the ones I have seen so far pay lip service but don't actually know much about it and don't seem to do any. So I will be seeing this new consultant next week.  :cheer:

That is great news NarcKiddo! I'm so happy to hear it isn't cancer. And jerk GP finally got you what you needed! This is the best possible outcome!  :cheer:

Well done NK! You really had your ducks lined up and burrowed through. (Maybe not with ease, but you got the results that you knew you needed. Congrats!!! And very happy to hear that the diagnosis isn't extreme.
 :hug:

It's great it's not cancer!!

So happy for you that you have an appt next week with a consultant who sounds promising.

I am so glad you have confirmation this is not cancer, so angry at all the nonsense they have put you through, and really hoping you get some answers sometime soon...and treatment that helps.

I hope that you continue to find information about your health that is helpful and affirming.  Reading your post made me feel so many things about the systems we have to navigate when we are ill and need help with how our bodies and minds are working. 

I was really happy with the consultant. He did not talk down to me. He asked me what I was hoping to achieve from the consultation. He answered all my questions. He realised I am sensible and well-informed and said I could exercise as I please. He confirmed my CT scan did not show anything of major concern. He agreed I could immediately come off the steroid inhaler jerk GP was pushing on me. He is sending me for lung function tests to see where my lungs are at and then we will discuss what (if anything) can be done to improve them.

In a glorious turn of events, I found a record of an exchange jerk GP had with the NHS hospital about the letter jerk GP claimed not to have received. Jerk GP complained to the hospital consultant about it. The consultant informed jerk GP it had been sent electronically and checked the audit trail, which confirmed when it had been delivered to jerk GP's surgery. He informed jerk GP that he should investigate the admin processes in his own surgery because that has to be the cause of the problem.

My mother appears to have decided my lung problem simply does not exist. I visited FOO and father asked for news. Mother immediately absented herself for a cigarette and then busied herself with the cooking. We were all in the kitchen, so she could hear the subject of the conversation but she ostentatiously dragged my sister away from the table to help her with the cooking and ignored the whole topic.

A couple of days after seeing the lung consultant I telephoned and father answered. He had shown (feigned?) great interest in my lung problem at my visit so I told him about the consultant and he could not get off the phone fast enough to hand me to mother. Mother talked at me about a couple of things and then said she had to get on with the cooking. She did not do her usual tick box exercise of asking if I had any news, so I had no chance to tell her about the lung consultant. I was not particularly itching to tell her but it suits me for them to know about it because appointments are taking place in their town. I will likely want to combine appointments with visits to them, but it may mean at different times to usual and I would be questioned about that. Since I had reported to father it was likely he would liaise with mother and would have expected her to have the latest news. I did not want to be accused of keeping information from her. In the end I sent a brief update to the family chat group which had the added bonus of keeping sister in the loop.

Sister asked a couple of questions. There was total silence from mother. That evening and first thing the following morning she swamped the group chat with reports of a skin complaint and then an eye complaint of my father's. Later she swamped it with other stuff.

I don't care that she does not care but I am interested in this latest tactic. It's not a particularly familiar modus operandi so I need to keep on my toes, I think.

I'm really glad the consultant turned out so great.  :cheer:

And at the same time it makes me sad reading about how your family treats you. It sounds like an unbelievably toxic environment. And you're being so considerate and polite. My heart goes out to you because you deserve so much more than this. So I'm sending you warmth, support, hugs and all you need :hug:

Quote from: NarcKiddo on October 20, 2024, 04:38:11 PMI don't care that she does not care but I am interested in this latest tactic. It's not a particularly familiar modus operandi so I need to keep on my toes, I think.

Is it possible that because you have changed, some old family patterns are falling by the wayside?
Just a thought.

Quote from: Chart on October 20, 2024, 05:28:24 PMIs it possible that because you have changed, some old family patterns are falling by the wayside?
Just a thought.

Yes, I think you are right. They have to react differently to me if I am presenting them with something new, I suppose. That could be good but I don't trust my mother as far as I could throw her. It is highly likely that new family patterns will be equally as toxic as old ones. Although if I do not have old coping mechanisms to trip me up because the situation is unfamiliar to me I am hoping that new behaviours will at least allow adult me to remain in control.

It's like Armee's metaphor of the toolbox. Keep changing you're own tactics through  anticipating what you know is still there. Ultimately this self-work is the equivalent of healing: just simply not feeling pain because we know these people will never give us what we want and need.

Quote from: Desert Flower on October 20, 2024, 05:11:12 PMI'm really glad the consultant turned out so great.  :cheer:

And at the same time it makes me sad reading about how your family treats you. It sounds like an unbelievably toxic environment. And you're being so considerate and polite. My heart goes out to you because you deserve so much more than this. So I'm sending you warmth, support, hugs and all you need :hug:

:yeahthat:

Hi NK,

As an outsider (with years of experience haha), it looks to me like your m is refocusing the attention away from you and onto her/the family/what she deems interesting/needed as a way to minimize you, and your very real and important health concerns. It's a way of keeping control, isolating, and probably a play at diminishing your self worth while keeping hers elevated. All under a thin veil of concern perhaps for you, which is a protection of her own ego and the likely view that she's a "good" mom.

I used to tell my gm everything about my health, or what was going on in my life. She wanted to be that person that I could talk to and I wanted (needed) her to be that person. So, I would go into these encounters open, hopeful I guess and after I had "got it out," the conversation would turn around to her, or what her health concerns were. It wasn't a mutal sharing, but you might be sick, but look at what I have to deal with. To me, it just felt like not being heard, but telling me she loved me, which was a thin veil of concern hiding her own selfish needs. Emotionally, it was immensely challenging to unpack, or even understand.

Sending you support,
dolly

Oh NK. These narcissists are so draining and also amusing as long as you are on the outside looking in and not experiencing it yourself. But since you are in it, it is mind-bending and can be very hurtful too.

I actually don't see much new in her tactics here. She has probably simply latched onto some bit of "good news" like "not cancer" and has decided she and everyone else has given you more than enough attention and will not recognize there is still something difficult for you going on. She has marked this as closed in terms of being an acceptable topic to pull attention away from her.

They are toddlers in their behavioral range, with the emotional charge and range of a teenager, and all the pettiness of an old person who has accumulated a lifetime of grievances. My heart goes out to you.

But I am so so happy your medical consultant listened to you and is taking the appropriate next steps. I hope you can get to the bottom of this soon. And I'm smirking with you at the GP's mistake with the hospital results records.

Thank you for your support, all.

Dolly - yes it is very hard to unpack and understand. And you are right that she believes (or wants to believe) that she is a good mother.

Armee - it's funny you should comment about them being toddlers. I often say to my T she is like a giant toddler. She treats me as a toy. Sometimes she loves her toy (in a toddler way) and at other times she rips the head off the toy, and then loves the toy again and demands the toy have its head sewn back on. Except of course in my case the toy is supposed to sew its own head back on!  :blink: And yes, you are correct in your view that the topic has gone far enough in pulling attention away from her.

My lung problem continues not to exist for her. I have just come off the phone after arranging a visit. The visit will be after an appointment in their town, which I told her. I did not specify what it was. She would normally ask but she must know it can only be medical so she studiously did not ask. Later in the conversation she said she was amused about the GP getting scolded by the hospital consultant. I had sent a copy by email to the family because they love put-downs and would find it entertaining. But even then she did not ask about my health.

In fact she asked nothing about me at all. Which is fine as I hate her asking me things. But it's still rude. She did inform me that we could pay for the family Christmas dinner at a local restaurant and that could be their present from us. We had planned to anyway, and did it last year, but still. Her presumptions are breathtaking sometimes.

So glad it's not cancer Narc KIddo as I said at our Zoom group, what a relief for you.  :hug:

Re your NM's latest tactics, I have to agree with others that you are likely not one to share about you (being well trained not to take up any attention!), and now you are. So the message is "Well enough about you, now about me ...." and/or "If you keep talking about yourself then I shall take myself away". Hah, that must be so unsettling for your M and your F to some extent.  He has likely been given the command not to indulge you. 

My NM was like your NM to some extent. When we moved across the country some years back, it was at a time when my M had gone very hard of hearing so we could not talk on the phone however occasionally (low contact). I decided I would email her with our news so that she HAD to hear what was going on. Usually on the phone (previously) or in person she would talk right over me until I gave up and then she could take centrestage. I was constantly made to feel invisible and as though I did not matter which I know you and so many of us here feel.  :disappear:

Anyway, as a "good mother" she would answer each item of news in a robotic way, but she at least had to acknowledge me. I have to say it was awesome finally making myself heard and visible even if I had to more or less force her and I know she did not really care. It was pivotal in my recovery, in learning to say to others "I am here." She's a wiley fox leaving the room on the pretense there is cooking to be done but at some point maybe you can follow her and keep talking about you, sending the message you are not going to be made invisible any longer. Just the fact that you are unsettling her, changing up the script is worth it.  :dramaqueen:   

NK, i hate the idea that you have to keep on your 'toes' re: what this next round of M tactics might be.  it's also very sad to me that you're the one who has to watch their step around her.  unfortunately, i probably have to agree w/ you that one tactic will be just as upsetting as another.  that sucks.

sending love and a hug filled w/ 'eyes everywhere' so that you can see a shot coming and dodge before it gets you.   :hug:

 :wave:

 :pissed: RANT ALERT  :pissed:

I'm so cheesed off with the inefficiency I encounter everywhere. I've recently had more than the usual dose of people not turning at the time they promise (or at all), not doing what they promise, not paying attention to detail blah blah. It just makes everything so much harder. I know everyone is busy and has stress - but some people manage not to do this (at least not on a regular basis, I know we all make mistakes).

But it's the medics who (yet again) have earned my annoyance. And that matters. Their mistakes could be very costly to me. I'm a lawyer, so I know just how costly mistakes can be. My mistakes could be very costly to me, after all!

Lung man is, by and large, very good and I trust him. I have just had the lung function result tests and his final verdict. Only when I looked at the fine detail of the lung function tests I realised my height had been wrongly entered. They shaved 6cm off.(And they measured it at the appointment - it is important enough to check and not just trust my telling them what my height is). Sigh. So I reported this to lung man. He ran the calculations again and sent them to me with a nice reassuring message that the changes did not make any material difference. I already knew he was likely to say this, because I have been doing a lot of research about lungs, that my results were such that a height change would make already bad results slightly worse but would not tip the good results into bad territory because the good results were generally not borderline.

However - there were a couple of borderline readings and in fact the lung function physiologist had drawn attention to that fact in his report. I am supposing he would not bother to point out borderline readings if they were for minor aspects. Well, the revised figures moved those particular readings from "rather close to the lower limit of normal" to "severely low".

So I had to email lung man's secretary again (poor woman must be sick of me) to point this out and to ask him to explain why a reading that is now severely low does not make a material difference. I am quite prepared to believe that it will not make any difference to the meds he has prescribed. But I want to know everything there is to know about my lungs, because I am the only person who is able to keep tabs on this, make sure I get followed up as necessary etc. The NHS certainly won't. And I am going to have to pay for any future surveillance because insurance does not cover chronic conditions. So I want to know what needs followed up, when and why.

Then I had to see jerk GP today to get the meds and review generally. In the course of the discussion he blithely said "I didn't know you have Hep C". I did not have the energy to tell him that he has already made that comment. Then he prescribed what lung man had asked. He actually asked me to read out what the prescription was since I had the letter in front of me. So I did, paying particular care to give details of the dosage.

Got home from the pharmacy to discover he has done the wrong dosage. It's not an immediate problem because it is puffs of an inhaler. The one I have should last for a month on the correct dosage. Because he has put in the wrong dosage his system now thinks it will last for two months so I will not be able to get the next one in time unless I traipse back to the surgery and sort it out. Which of course I will do. But really.

None of this is insurmountable, of course. But if this had all happened through the NHS I would not have had lung man's letter. It would have gone to the surgery on the internal NHS system. If I were a person who struggles with IT so could not check the letter online, or who trusts the doctor, I'd just be half-dosing my inhaler for ever.

END RANT

In other news, FOO continues as ever. Mother continues to blank my health as much as humanly possible. I've been discussing this quite a lot with my T lately. Part of me would love to force her to see me but most of me does not want to share anything with her. At all. Ever. I am sharing some information because it suits me to do so and then I feel upset and angry when I am blanked because it is just plain rude. Really I need radical acceptance, but just when I think I don't care a part of me pops up and announces they do care.

I am here supporting you in being an advocate for yourself within the systems we must navigate. 

NK, I have developed a healthy distrust of doctors since 2020. I know they see a plethora of patients in a week, but that doesn't excuse bad pratices. 

I'm hoping everything works out for you. 

By the way, I am stealing "cheese off" as if it were my own! 

Thank you, rainy diary and L2N

Quote from: Little2Nothing on November 08, 2024, 06:20:00 PMBy the way, I am stealing "cheese off" as if it were my own!

Feel free. We do have some fun phrases this side of the Pond!

NK, i'm with you all the way w/ that rant against the docs - self-advocacy is important, but downright incompetence - your dosage, specifically - just goes over the line.  ugh! :doh:  very sorry you're going thru this one more time.

i wish you could get more satisfaction w/ your M, too.  it sounds never-ending and impossible to fix.  love and hugs :hug:

NK, Hope things have smoothed out a bit since. And "cheesed-off" easily gets by the censors! Thanks for that!
 :hug:

Hee, hee. Ha, ha. Ho, ho. "Smoothed out" you say? Pffft. Buckle up! (Thanks, also, for the ongoing support. Much appreciated.  :grouphug: )

After jerk GP's mess up of the inhaler dose it took:
one visit to the asthma nurse,
two online messages to the surgery pharmacy team (plus follow up reviews by me to see if the messages had been received [yes] and actioned [yes] correctly [NO]),
and three telephone calls
to get the next inhaler ordered. So I now have plenty of leeway - but it is still impossible to tell until early December whether they have made the correct changes to the online ordering frequency so I can get the inhalers ongoing at the right rate.

What I did not say in my last post on the subject was that jerk GP was getting exercised by my actual diagnosis (which is fine, because I want to know, too). I have been on both the asthma and COPD registers at that surgery since 2011, although I was never told to my face of either diagnosis. Lung man went with an asthma diagnosis but I could see as well as anyone when I saw the test results that a COPD diagnosis could well be justified. Lung man had told me he could make an argument for asthma or COPD or both but was going with asthma as the treatment in my case is the same anyway. That seemed to be fine. BUT jerk GP said he needed to know if I should be removed from the COPD register so he had written to Lung man to ask. He then remarked that I would be eligible for better levels of vaccine cover if I was on the COPD register. I want as much protection as I can get. My condition is generally stable but infections are devoutly to be avoided.

I had to speak to Lung man anyway about the lung test query so I asked him about the diagnosis before he had time to write back to jerk GP. Lung test query turned out to be a bungle on Lung man's behalf for which he apologised profusely. It makes no practical difference but at least I now know what is what. As for the diagnosis, it turns out I do indeed have COPD as well as asthma. The original 2011 diagnosis was correct and remains correct. I pointed out he had said it was desirable for me not to get ill and that COPD means I will be eligible for more vaccine cover. So why did he not diagnose COPD as well? He said in his experience GPs who see a COPD diagnosis tend to overlook an asthma diagnosis. They then have a habit of tweaking treatment so it only covers COPD and not asthma and that would be a bad idea in my case. "But your GP sounds sensible," he said, "so I will tell him to keep the COPD diagnosis as well as the asthma." I told Lung man we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not jerk GP is sensible but the main point is that I know all the particulars and I can then make sure that jerk GP or any future medic does not go off track. Sigh. I like Lung man but even he seems to think it is fine to pat me on the head and send me on my way unless I refuse to allow that.

In other news, jerk GP was snivelling and sneezing when I saw him on Friday and gave me his cold. Which went straight to my lungs. This has been their first test since the pneumonia and fortunately I am able to down tools and rest as needed if I feel ill. So I have done so and am feeling much better now.

 :aaauuugh:

Maddening the lot of it!!!

I can't believe he gave you his cold on top of everything else.  :doh:

NK, sorry you are dealing with this. I hate doctors.

Wow NarcKiddo,  I am relieved to hear you are feeling better again after catching that cold from your doctor.  Sounds like a nightmare in terms of the medical path and stuff you've been negotiating your way through.

If it weren't such a real horror show for you I would laugh my fanny off. It's like a series about inept superheros. GerkGP and LungMan to the rescue!!! Or not...

Nonetheless, I am impressed at your determination and focus. You are definitely fighting the good fight and keeping your relative cool. Man, bigtime bravo for that. I need some good inspiration these days. Thankyou for that. Small consolation maybe... Keep up the good fight. Sending hugs and positive vibes!
 :hug:

Hey NK,

I can relate to all of this so much and good for you for getting through it. I have had similar experiences with the NHS and it's incredible frustrating. There is something that is so personal about health, survival, and trauma I think where given the upbringings some of us have had, and speaking for myself here, it becomes incredibly amplified when I feel like I'm not being taken seriously, or people are paying attention etc. My other healthcare practitioner has stepped away and I saw her replacement and I have now been irritated/angry for a day when she suggested that losing weight was based on my age, which I have been told since my issues started, disproved, and think is the most lazy explanation. I also did a quick search last night and there's quite a bit of evidence showing that high cholesterol levels are related to people living in moldy homes etc. It's depressing to be "dependent" on someone I feel is not up to speed (or taking me seriously, feel like I'm being blamed etc), but I guess I can always find someone else who might also be just as inept, but I guess I have that option.

Sorry to ramble, I just get how incredibly frustrating it is and glad you have an outlet here to express what's going on.

Sending you support,
dolly 

Health has been a bit tiresome again. I would change the record if I could, honestly! Had a Hep B vaccination and have been having what I think are side effects. Getting to have this wretched jab has been a saga I won't bore you with but I ended up having to go to a far away hospital for it because jerk GP's surgery refused to administer it. I rang hospital nurse about the side effects and she suggested getting a blood test just to be sure my liver is not acting out. But I refused to go all the way to the hospital for that so she said to try jerk GP. Hah. Not doing that. Well, I did actually try to ring but lost the will to wait for an answer. It's getting better slowly. Unfortunately I have to have a second dose just after Christmas. At least that will tell me for sure if what I have now are/were side effects, since I will be in for another lot of horrid days if so.

I had a rather amazing experience at art class today. I had done some unbidden homework and was showing the teacher. She asked what I was going to do with the pic so I said "I don't know. Just put it in my folder, I guess." Then she said she wanted to buy it and asked me to name my price!!! She said this in public in the classroom and she does not go round saying it to everyone. It's a great honour. Of course I did not know what to do or think!

I was so obviously taken aback she told me to go away and think about it. Said if I did not want to sell the original but was prepared to make prints she would buy one of those. She clearly likes the picture. It's of a very menacing looking raven and she said her sitting room is full of bird pics and ornaments.

So I had a rather agonising few hours trying to come up with a price. My first instinct was to come up with a price that was crazy cheap. I told my husband about it (not about my price figure) and he started coming up with all sorts of ideas like asking for free art lessons. All very well but I had not asked for his help. And his idea of price was stratospherically higher than mine.

I did some research on the likes of Etsy for things that are vaguely comparable and in the end came up with what I think is a fair sum. Very much on the low side but not the cheapest out there. Well, it would equate to half an hour of my lawyer time and I spent ten hours on the picture. But I am a qualified lawyer who has been practising for decades and a rookie artist who has been taking lessons for a year.

Anyway, I told her my rock bottom price and said no hard feelings if it was over her budget. She bit my arm off so I am probably too low but I may ask her later what price I should have asked! She said I should make prints to sell and will help me with how to do that if I agree.

I don't know how to feel about it. Selling a picture makes me, in theory, a professional artist. I never went into it for that and I may never sell anything again. It's really weird. I almost don't want to sell the picture now. I can't quite imagine having my art on somebody else's wall because they liked it enough to pay for it. As a child it hardly made it as far as the fridge door. And as a teen my mother pronounced my pictures to be daubs and questioned why the art master had given them decent grades. So there's that.

I was reluctant even to write about it here. That usually means it is a good idea to override my discomfort and do so.

I'm sorry about your ongoing health problems and jerkGP.

Wow on the painting tho and being asked to sell it or get prints and sell them!

 :cheer:

Take the leap dear and definitely sell it to her! Exposure and all that. So strange isnt it that getting praise and recognition feels so horrid to us all.

And yes! Ask what price you should have asked after you do. That would be interesting to know.


I'd love to see it if you are comfortable attaching it. I'm glad you mentioned it here. 

Wow the side effects even mentioned vaguely sound horrid

Hey NarcKiddo, it's nice that your teacher loved your art so much! What an honour indeed! And the piece sounds very intriguing to me.
Sorry to hear about your health issues though.

Regards,
Aphotic.

Here he is.

Wow NK, that IS really good!  Maybe give yourself some time to settle and get over the apprehension, then let yourself feel good about doing so well (despite what your NM would say - piffle to her).

It's a lovely win so when you're able, please give yourself the gift of letting yourself feel proud :hug:

I love him!  You are so talented  :hug:

Excellent drawing. 

I love him too! To me, He's like this fierce protector. Like a tough guardian angel. Stunning.

all of the above, NK.  what a wonderful piece.  you are very talented!  love and hugs :hug:

Hi NK.

Congrats!  :cheer:

I know right?  Having something that you have created being desired by someone else.  It's wicked cool isn't it?  ;D  When it happens it's so counter to the messaging from the person in role of mother that it's down right uncomfortable and with me, it's also a little scary.   

Enjoy it and who knows?  Perhaps one day that could be your thing to do at some point in the future.

Wishing you all the best 

Narckiddo! Wow! That is fantastic! How fun that you take an art class with other people too.

 I'm glad your teacher validated your work and I can certainly see why she wanted it, or a print. I guess your teacher also taught how hard it is to name a price..so many factors, and then it's hard for "us" to do that sort of thing, too.

Hey NarcKiddo, I adore this piece! I absolutely love how you use so many different shades to create a sense of space and shape. Thanks for sharing!

Regards,
Aphotic.

Thank you, everyone.  :grouphug:

I had a family lunch with FOO at the weekend.

I drew my own Christmas card this year and had it printed in a fit of bravery. I paid quite a lot for the printing and had my name and the year printed on the back - so I had to send them or waste the money if I chickened out. Argh. They have now been sent and I have had some nice comments. FOO commented politely on receipt and asked a bit about my art classes at the lunch. So far so squirm-inducing, but tolerable. My husband mentioned the sale of my picture. There were some polite comments about that and they asked if I had a photo of it to show. I did, but we were in the middle of eating so I said I would show later and then waited to see if they would ask again. They did not.

Little NK became very insistent I show the photo so I sent a message the next day with it. The response was very underwhelming. Eventually my sister said the general view was that it looks very fierce. I think Little NK was truly expecting the kind of response I have had from you all on this thread. Hah. Silly Little NK. I mean that very fondly and adult NK saw her through it just fine.

A couple of days later my mother paid a faint compliment. I think she felt obliged to say something because she was at the same time disinviting us from a holiday meal and didn't want me to get too cross. Hah. You couldn't make it up.

Anyway, Little NK is very happy that you all liked it. And Adult NK is happy to be disinvited from the meal. So it's all good.

NK, I love how you are thinking about this..and that you sent out the card prints! That was brave, and also a wonderful gift for your family to have a piece of their talented relative's artwork! I'm sure enjoying creativity and what that's like isn't on their radar..just judgement of others, if they're anything like mine! I gave my mother my original artwork for years and she barely commented, sometimes giving a sideways grimace. She can't appreciate originality. What will everyone else think!? Will they approve?

I had a similar experience once about making a card- our extended family was going to all be together for Christmas, and I made a printmaking linoleum block for it, and made prints for everyone as a card/gift. About 30 people. Not a single person commented on it.

I'm just glad you did this, and I imagine it is more appreciated than was expressed by many. I think it's super cool!!

NK i absolutely love your drawing.

And I think you handled all this in a loving and mature way. Even if their responses were underwhelming. That's not in your control. You acted fine. Good that you could see little NK through it well.

Phoebes, sorry you too did not get the responses you would have loved. I'm sure you card was lovely too.

Wow NarcKiddo, Your painting is really good.  Excellent that you were able to sell it, and it's lovely that you're having positive responses to your Christmas card too.  You are talented.  I remember when you posted your painting of the aeroplanes with the trail dust colours - that was also a great painting.  I really liked it.

Oh no I missed that one. I must go back and find the plane one!

Wow, love the Corvid!!! Family doesn't change, eh... Sorry to hear about the absence of validation. Seems you know the story well now. We get better and better at moving on.  :hug:

Quote from: Armee on December 05, 2024, 07:41:37 PMI love him too! To me, He's like this fierce protector. Like a tough guardian angel. Stunning.

:yeahthat:

My Corvid story is going sour.

The art teacher said I should keep him until we have had a chance to talk about making prints, as suggested by her. Then we had the Christmas break. He was supposed to be her Christmas present to herself.

At the first lesson back in January she spoke to me about it first thing and said we should make a date to discuss. So I messaged her and we set a time. She was going to come to my house. I had started to feel a bit wary because this is a woman who has NEVER turned up to any class social activities even when she has said she will or has organised them herself. One girl had a birthday tea party at her home and the teacher simply did not turn up! No apology.

So on the appointed day I was not surprised to receive a message an hour beforehand saying something had come up and she could not make it. It was annoying because I had missed a gym session for it and she did not message me until just after my husband had left, so I could not tag along with him.

The lesson after that she again said I should message her to make a date.

What she did not know was that I am stopping her classes. Probably not for good but the last lesson of this block is tomorrow. The next block of 8 contains two classes I refuse to attend because of the fumes of the materials involved, 1 with new materials I am not prepared to purchase as I have no interest and 3 I know I don't much enjoy. So that leaves 2 I am actively interested in. I had been thinking about not doing that block anyway and this Corvid saga has swayed my decision. It nearly went the other way because I feared I was having a CPTSD cut and run reaction, but I have sound reasons for my decision. Since then I have discovered another art class I am going to try, so I may not actually go back to the current teacher for quite a while as the new course lasts until July.

So I messaged her as she requested to ask for dates she is free, but also to tell her I am missing out the next block of classes. So I said tomorrow is the last day I can conveniently bring Corvid to class and that I am not particularly bothered about making prints of him, although I would like to meet at some point and discuss the process in case I want to do so in future. Essentially I was inviting her to put her money where her mouth is.

So far there has been total radio silence. She appears not to have read my message, but who knows? If I do not hear from her I will not be taking Corvid to class and if she wants him it will be down to her to contact me and arrange her purchase.

As it happens, there is a local art sale in a few months time and since I have already entertained the possibility of selling I might frame him and put him up for sale there, along with a couple of other bits. The sale happens to be in the village where she lives so she could always buy him there, although he will cost more.

I don't really know what I think of all this yet so am just putting it all down here.

She sounds quite flaky! For whatever reason, not really having the money or having her own internal struggles but it sounds like she is not the home for your first sold painting! I hope corvid finds a wonderful owner at the art sale. Your decision to switch art classes does not sound at all like a function of cptsd but of listening to yourself and what you really want for your growth in art. Great job! It sounds like the right decision to me!

 :yeahthat:
NarcKiddo, You're situation makes me think (once again) just how "sensitive" and "aware" and "second guessing" Cptsd often makes us. When I think it through and rationalize it it seems pretty extreme. Living in France for so long, one of the things that I find still fascinating, is the often "insensitive" standard-don't-care attitude of many French people. (The famous Parisien waiter who never comes over to your table to take your order, stereotypes like that...) Anyway, I think you are dealing with the situation extremely well. People who don't respond, show proper respect in communication and honoring appointments, need to be handled appropriately, kinda like inappropriate behavior in children... But you seem to be dealing with the situation splendidly (imo :-)
 :hug: