I just saw an article about a famous author here in Canada, Alice Munro, who it seems denied her daughter was sexually abused by her stepfather. This came to light recently when Munro died in May and her biography was published with no mention of the CSA even though the biographer knew about it apparently. Here's a link to a story about this not uncommon denial on the part of a parent - https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/alice-munro-biographies-1.7268296.
Another Alice who did the same thing was Alice Miller, renowned for her writing about childhood trauma. Her son wrote a book about her abuse and her denial - https://www.amazon.com/True-Drama-Gifted-Child-Phantom/dp/1980668949html
The mind boggles at such deep betrayal of one's own children, especially Alice Miller whose life was dedicated to educating people about childhood trauma.
It speaks to how deeply society's denial of child abuse, sexual or otherwise is and why it is so important for us to drag it out into the light, again and again if we must.
Thanks for bringing this up.
According to the first article, the author didn't include it because it was a "private family matter." As some people might say, I call B.S. This "family privacy" was a cultural norm in the 50's 60's and even 70's. Many suffered in silence and have gone on to lead lives of desperation, medically, emotionally and physically.
I had a pointed discussion with my T on Friday about what constitutes breaches of trust among family. I often wondered if I was making a mountain out of a molehill. It turns out I'm not.
Yes, these Alices who denied their children's experiences illustrate how incredibly powerful our need is to preserve our self-image, whether is it based in reality or not. This is why it is critically important not to swallow some revered "expert's" work. Dig deeper to see if they are truly authentic.
Hmm, yeah, a private family matter, so keep it out of the biography? I agree with Lakelynn's call. And I absolutely refuse to read any of Alice Miller's work. Maybe if I read her son's book first. What is it with these people?! I guess they just figure, "Oh... well, write your own book. [Insert familial criticism.]" :no:
Sorry, end my lil rant.
Thank you, Kizzie, for raising this and shining a light on it. :sunny:
-Cascade
Yeah I have problems with this as well as did some thinking about separating the "art and the artist" recently after reading, "The Fantasy Bond," and finding out the author is basically a cult leader (his references to women in the book sort of tipped me off). However, I did struggle with it as I found the concepts he wrote about to aptly describe my experience to some degree, and am wishing there is someone else writing about "limerance," and more specifically to the idea(l) of family and what you're supposed to be as a way of perpetuating the (abusive) connection to your family (and the attachment to what kept us safe).
Sometimes people champion causes in order to silence their own conscience. They become blind to their own hypocrisy and lead a double life.
Humanity has such a great capacity for barbarous acts. We can justify ourselves while pointing a finger at others for the same things. All of that is a choice.
But we can also choose to be kind and decent people. Many who have suffered under the depravity of caregivers have chosen the good over the bad. Their hearts are moved with compassion for the suffering and hurting. That's the kind of person I want to be.
I read Alice Miller´s book and then also her son, Martin´s, in which he describes the way his mother developed this distorted second personality during the WW2 when she had to hide and basically become someone else in order to survive from the Nazis. Martin´s approach is very compassionate, which I think had to be very challenging knowing what he went through. Anyway, I just wanted to say that it´s a really interesting reading for people like me who first knew only about the pioneering work of Alice Miller in the field of childhood trauma and then from the second book got to know the whole stuff that was going on under this facade of the perfect psychoanalyst.
Quote from: Little2Nothing on July 28, 2024, 11:28:38 AMSometimes people champion causes in order to silence their own conscience. They become blind to their own hypocrisy and lead a double life.
I like this perspective Little2Nothing. Thanks.
O dear, I have obviously been living under a stone (surviving) and not looking into any available literature, because I did not not know this about Alice Miller and her son! (I did read her book before and have some important notes by myself written in that copy.) It's so shocking to read that what she wrote and what she did is so totally different. This is really difficult to deal with and to reconcile. I'll try to find something to hold on to in what Little2Nothing's wrote. And try to digest this.
Just my thoughts here but I think Alice Miller wrote from the persepctive of the person she wanted to be, that she knew all parents need to be but with a degree of blindness to her own abuse of her children. I have no idea how this can be psychologically but it happens. When I was looking around apparently this is fairly common. It reinforces for me how we as humans do not ever want to think the unthinkable.
When I think about child abuse by priests I remember the backlash against survivors when allegations first starting coming out. But survivors refused to be silenced anymore and finally the possibility and then the reality seeped into our collective consciousness. It took a lot of voices but it happened and I'm hoping we can do the same thing with relational trauma. Enough voices and the reality of abuse/trauma cannot be kept in the dark places it often resides.
It's a good thing IMO that the two Alice's have been called to account and their children have been (mostly) believed. There are always deniers but with enough validation from those who have lived experience of abuse/neglect and are willing to say it's real, their voices will hopefully fade and we will move forward. These two cases do raise the question "If the parent/abuser is famous, can/should we separate the art from the artist?" as Dolly touches on. Personally I can't look at their work in the same way, just as I can't look at the comedy of Bill Cosby the same, or Michael Jackson's music, etc. There is for me a feeling that they each in their own way sacrificed others for the sake of their art and ego.
Me too, I find it very hard to separate the author and the mother in this case.
I think you're right Kizzie, that people do not and cannot sometimes think the unthinkable, because it's too much to bear.
Relating to my own situation, I think that's why my brain and central nervous system for a very long time thought it was better to give me many physical complaints instead of processing the emotions and feelings that needed to be processed. For a long time, it would have been too much for me too handle. I think now, slowly and slowly, I'm getting around to feeling and aknowledgeing what's really there.
As for my m, I think it would be totally unthinkable and anbearable for her to hear what really happened between us. My abuser, same story. Denial denial denial. Somehow, people need to think that they are all right. It takes a very brave person to see what they did wrong or what wrongs were done to them.
You know I was watching a show about an animal recovery organization in Canada the other night and one of it's vets went to help deal with a large animal hoarding situation in the US (she was another set of experienced hands). She had seen abuse but never on the scale of this house of horrors. The owner said she was rescuing the animals but they were in deplorable shape, some obviously starving to death and worse. I couldn't watch it all.
The thing that stood out to me was how absolutely traumatized the Cdn vet was despite being an experienced wildlife rescuer. She said since she came back she would just burst into tears at odd times and was having trouble coming to terms with what she saw and had to deal with there. All I could think was "Of course, it was traumatizing to see animals in that much distress" and that this is how difficult it is to get one's mind around abuse/neglect of animals and humans. It is unfathomable, unthinkable and many of us find we need to turn away as I did when I could not watch any more.
I was thankful there were many there who were able to get the animals out of there and deal with them, even if it meant euthanizing them. In a similar vein I am always and forever grateful to the clinicians who don't turn away from us and what we have been through, but of course we need more. There are so many of us and at the moment so few of them.
And just like other movements such as BLM, MeToo or the Vietnam Vets who got PTSD into the top two diagnostic manuals (DSM and ICD), I believe we need to be a part of bringing these unthinkable, deplorable acts into public consciousness.
Yes Kizzie I think you're right. And this not only goes for the cases that are overtly deplorable but it would need to also include the cases where every seems fine on the outside but it is really not.
So true DF, good point. It's like if you can't see it, it easier to say it doesn't exist. I have that issue with my back. The pain can be really intense and yet "nothing to see here folks' so I often feel like people think I'm lying to get out of work, gain sympathy, etc.
Perhaps that is part of what makes it easier to deny CSA; no-one actually sees it except the perpetrator and victim. And if the victim is young, they can be silenced or made to feel they are making things up. Physical abuse on the other hand is clear and is likely why there is more attention paid to it (finally).
Just noodling here. I like throwing ideas around, digging deeper so we get a fuller understanding. :yes:
Thanks Kizzie, I saw that recently and wasn't surprised. I'm glad there are brave people simply speaking the truth. What a concept.
The one star reviews on Martin's book are quite triggering. Mom? Is that you? One thing I know is true- some people will never be able to handle the truth.
Our human ability to see horrible things and just pretend we didn't see them is one of the most insidious talents we have.
I once watched an episode of DatelineNBC. Lester Holt was telling the documentary of a man who'd been murdered here in the US. As the story unfolded, it started to come out that this man had been sexually abusing boys, and that perhaps it had been one of the boys who'd grown up and come back to take revenge. During the story, it came out too that this man tended to frequent gay bars. Then, the REAL CREEPY THING was, they interviewed this man's former best friend, who said...Hang on to your hats, folks, this idiot really said it right into the camera. This creep said, "Well I'm okay with him being into little boys, but Gay? NO WAY WAS HE GAY!" This sleezy, stupid, hick southerner was okay with his friend raping boys, but couldn't get accept the mere idea that maybe he was gay too.
That was a real eye opener for me. A true example of how it is that stupid people find it easier to sacrifice their children than it is to protect them.
I used to work with parents of abused children, and I used to advise that if they don't need to prosecute the offender, they'd be better off not doing it. The courts and the lawyers tended to emotionally rape the children all over again on the witness stand. The prosecution almost never won (This was the 1990s). The child's name gets posted publicly and their whole world turns against them. Going back to school after the world finds out you were molested is just setting the child up for suicide.
Once people accept that a child was molested, that child is never treated the same way again. Parents hide it or refuse to believe it. Teachers and fellow classmates look at that child differently. Often, that child is accused of hurting the man's repiutation who raped them by telling the truth of what he'd done to them.
People just simply do not want to deal with the fact that some adults rape children. Our power to pretend it didn't happen is too strong. People just want to pretend it didn't happen. All too often the child gets blamed for the rape. It's one of the cruelest things we humans do to each other.
My parents wouldn't do anything about it. Priests were to be respected no matter what horrible things they did to the kids. And for a Catholic to tattle on a pedophile priest, well...that loses friends and makes the rest of the Catholics hate YOU, not the priest.
Socially, physically, emotionally, addressing child rape is just too much reality for some people to deal with like adults.
And, from what we see in the school systems and their BS anti-bullying campaigns, I have found it to be true that teachers and principals punish the bullied child rather than the bully because, let's face it, a bullied child isn't scary. The bullies are scary. The rapists are scary. The victims are easier to deal with. So most schools punish the bullied kids, and most people find it safer to accuse the child of wrongdoing rather than risk losing friends by accusing the scary man.
I'm very aware that my post has a lot of anger in it. Welcome to my world. Adults who refuse to address child sexual abuse is one of my hottest hot buttons. The whole thing just enrages me. Too close to home. My mother was more interested in being a good Catholic than she was in protecting her son. I've never become okay with that.
You're right to be angry Papa Coco, very much so. It's unbearable that people will not protect the child for keeping up appearances. Unforgivable if you ask me. I'm very very sorry you had to go through that.
Thank you for keeping us up-to-date on what's going on beyond OOTS in this kind of respect, Kizzie.
To anybody who might be interested, there's an article on OOTS blog by Martin Miller from April 2019 www.outofthestorm.website/guest-bloggers?month=04-2019
PapaCoco, I hear and feel your pain and your anger.
I share Papa coco's anger. Having been sexually abused as a child by mutiple people, and having been given to one by my M, I have no love for predators or their enablers.
Nor do I have empathy for those who would protect an abuser rather than the child. There should be sever penalties for the abuser and the protector. Both are guilty of the same crime. Neither should be exhonerated.
The sad thing is that there is little accountability for the rape and abuse of a child. Many pedophiles are given a slap on the wrist, where the child has to carry the weight of what was done for the rest of their lives.
None of it is fair. None of it is right.
Tks BB for reminding me we have a blog article by Martin Miller that he wrote just before his book came out. I think of him often because of the precarious nature of having been abused by a very famous and beloved trauma clinician. It was incredibly brave of him to speak up and risk the backlash that did come his way.
I asked him to write an article for OOTS as our way of saying "We believe you!" Three very powerful words all survivors need to hear IMO.
The fact that the other Alice's (Munro - famous Canadian writer) denial of the abuse of her daughter by her stepfather got a lot of attention is really positive IMO. It indicates more of a willingness in society to bring these horrible stories out into the light of day.
And that's what we're doing here by letting people read our posts if they choose to do so. We are anonymous to protect ourselves but there is no doubt these are the real stories of people from all over the world who have suffered and some who continue to suffer from complex relational abuse.
No more secrets, silence or shame. :grouphug:
L2N,
To comment on your mention that child abusers get light sentences: It sickens me to see that pedophiles get a slap on the wrist and are put on a list of sex offenders, while people like Bernie Madoff, who steel a little money from the rich get life in prison. Shows where society's values really are.
Funny you should mention that Papa. I just watched a podcast called Betrayal in which the stepfather took photos of his eldest stepdaughter unbeknownst to her (i.e., from outside her window when she was changing, etc), around 100 I think it was. Added to that he had over 1500 pictures of child pornography on his laptop. He only did 10 months in jail and then "got God" and shielded himself by being an upstanding member of the church. He has unsupervised visits with his biological daughter (not the one he photographed) and has a right to half of the family assets. It was all quite sickening but it did reinforce for me that we need to keep speaking up and dragging abuse out into the light of day.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/betrayal-fathers-secret-documents-dark-truth-shatters-family/story?id=112162568#:~:text=Ashley%20Lytton's%20husband%2C%20Jason%2C%20seemed,and%20earning%20her%20kids'%20trust.
This morning there is a CBC article about an employee of Munro's Books (a bookstore owned by Alice Munro) that makes me really happy. When the employee found out about Munro's denial of abuse of her daughter by her 2nd husband and that some store employees knew about it, she quit. And now the remaining employees at the store are trying to make up for being complicit by featuring books about CSA. https://www.cbc.ca/news/munros-books-employee-1.7282383
I also read an article about the Dutch child predator being heartily booed in his Olympic events.
This is what needs to happen - public condemnation of the abuse and accountability.
I always wonder if my mother hears about these cases and sees herself at all. Is there any self-reflection there. I wonder if Alice actually called her daughter a liar and told a completely twisted story to people who were not close enough to know the truth. I'm glad these famous cases can shine a light in these predator enablers.
Quote from: Phoebes on August 03, 2024, 05:49:55 PMI'm glad these famous cases can shine a light in these predator enablers.
Me as well!
Quote from: Kizzie on August 03, 2024, 04:12:17 PMThis morning there is a CBC article about an employee of Munro's Books (a bookstore owned by Alice Munro) that makes me really happy. When the employee found out about Munro's denial of abuse of her daughter by her 2nd husband and that some store employees knew about it, she quit.
:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
Quote from: Phoebes on August 03, 2024, 05:49:55 PMI always wonder if my mother hears about these cases and sees herself at all. Is there any self-reflection there.
From my own experience and from what all I have read on here, I wouldn't count on it. I'm sorry. I wish it were different.
Quote from: Blueberry on August 05, 2024, 10:19:02 AMPhoebes - I always wonder if my mother hears about these cases and sees herself at all. Is there any self-reflection there.
BB- From my own experience and from what all I have read on here, I wouldn't count on it. I'm sorry. I wish it were different.
I have to agree BB, psychologically these parents seem to be able to blind themselves so it doesn't upset them or their world. Some kind of survival strategy kicking in I think, much like people who become N's. N's cope with very small and fragile egos from trauma they endured which means they must protect themselves in whatever way they can and at all costs. The psychological gymnastics help them to survive. And the capacity to self-reflect is either gone or has become distorted sadly.
Kizzie & BB. I totally agree. Although it's taken a while to fully sink in.
So, do they know they are lying? I mean, these defense mechanisms result in them painting false narratives and ruining the scapegoat's reputation for the sake of making themselves feel better. I feel like they know what they are doing because they act different around certain others. Do they do this and are perfectly fine with it? Not that it matters anymore.
After the more recent story that was told to my cousin, my takeaway was exactly that. She frantically flipped the script and changed the story to save face, HER face. Never mind how that affects ME.
I think these people sear their conscience so that over time they no longer are affected by what is going on.
Deep inside they know it's wrong, but they have trained themselves to ignore and override what is happening. Enablers are as monstrous as the perpetrators.
L2N, totally agree. What kind of mother does this stuff..
I think they know what they are doing but they don't care. I don't know if all N's are the product of trauma but a lot are from what I've read about them. They have to protect/enable themselves at all costs to protect that fragile, little ego and switching the narrative is one way of doing that. The big one is DARVO - Deny, Attack and Reverse Victim & Offender in which you come out looking like the bad guy.
Many times, when a gaslighter is confronted about something they did or said that was hurtful, they utilize a tactic that turns the conversation around, and the victim ends up feeling to blame. This tactic of manipulation was studied by Jennifer Freyd, a psychological researcher who labeled it DARVO, an acronym for Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. Gaslighters may use this tactic in romantic relationships, with friends, at work, or even in parenting. They shift the focus away from the issue at hand and begin to attack the victim. Here's how this can look:
Let's say you bring up a recent problem or hurtful comment to your partner, friend, or boss. You might have evidence or reasons that you provide for your suspicions. For example, "Why are you in this picture with this other woman at the party?" or "Marty told me he got a raise in his performance review when you told me no one was getting raises this year." That's when this tactic begins.
DENY: The accusation or suspicions are met with denial. The abuser will completely deny all evidence or accountability for their actions. This can sound like:
"Are you kidding? That's not what happened."
"What are you talking about?"
ATTACK: Here the abuser goes on the offensive, often by attacking the person's character, intelligence, motivation, mental health, or emotional stability. This can sound like:
"You're overreacting."
"You're imagining things."
"You're not thinking clearly."
"Calm down! You always get so dramatic about everything."
REVERSE VICTIM & OFFENDER: At this point, the victim's role is shifted, and they are made to feel like the abuser or offender. The abuser takes on a victim role and the true victim is made to feel like they have done something to the abuser. There is no accountability for the abuser's actions. The abuser can sometimes end up in tears. This can sound like:
"You know how hard it is for me to trust someone and then you do this to me. I can't believe this. I trusted you."
"I can't believe I have to sit here and listen to this. You know how much I love you and you treat me like this."
"I can't do anything right in your eyes. It's always something. I try so hard and you always find something wrong."
DARVO can leave a victim feeling confused and horrible about themselves. As DARVO typically happens in relationships with gaslighting already taking place, the victim's ability to rationalize or see through the abuser's behavior is difficult. The victim usually ends up either withdrawing their initial complaint or beginning to comfort the abuser.
https://lifecounselinginstitute.com/darvo-a-form-of-gaslighting-in-relationships/#:~:text=Have%20you%20ever%20talked%20to,of%20gaslighting%20known%20as%20DARVO.
I'll bet this sounds familiar.
Definitely, Kizzie. Thank you for that reminder. Then to add on, they spread their newly updated version of the story to anyone who will listen, especially people who they have primed before to thing you're crazy.
In my NM's case, I do think she became this way from the way she was raised, but also she had a choice. When I was a child and in the midst of being abused, I would ask why she was doing that and she would angrily say she was just doing what was done to her. When I asked why, if she didn't like that, would she do it to me (logical question for a child, I thought), I got it more for "talking back." She didn't want to do things different, she wanted to take out her rage on me. A thing.
Thank you, Kizzie, that´s something my M did every time she was confronted. I find this behavior really frustrating and I still don´t know how to handle it.
The very very few times I confronted my m that I remember are:
- when I told her something about how I felt about (my inner critic is now telling me: stupid thing to tell her) the SA that had gone on under her roof, she said: but it's over now, isn't it? (invalidation)
- and many years later, when I got angry with her over the phone (very rare occasion), she hung up on me. And then I called her back and started apologizing etc. etc.
Quote from: Dalloway on August 10, 2024, 12:52:52 PMI find this behavior really frustrating and I still don´t know how to handle it.
This isn't for everybody, but I gave up trying to confront. Mostly I'd confronted about their emotional abuse, and physical abuse from B1 they hadn't protected me from. CSA I confronted about only once and had to dissociate pretty much in order to do so. (I was told about it later second-hand and remembered vaguely, but wouldn't have if I hadn't been told.)
I'm VVVLC with FOO and miles away geographically so that's easier than some people have it.
On here we believe you and support you.