I was looking up something lately based on how I was feeling. I saw an article that said something along the lines of "you teach others how to treat you."
This phrase rubs me the wrong way and I'm curious what others think. I've been experiencing a lot of shame since reading this.
I would say that statement doesn't account for trauma and how brains work when under stress. It doesn't account for diversity in how brains experience the world.
I do see how we can communicate our needs and preferences to others.
But I just can't move past how awful that phrase sits with me.
Quote from: rainydiary on September 05, 2024, 12:07:38 AMI was looking up something lately based on how I was feeling. I saw an article that said something along the lines of "you teach others how to treat you." This phrase rubs me the wrong way and I'm curious what others think. I've been experiencing a lot of shame since reading this.
I can only imagine how much it rubs you the wrong way and causes you to feel shame given it puts the responsibility (blame) for our abuse on us. I think the phrase should be "Perpetrators teach their victims--children and adults--how to behave in order to survive". That better reflects what happens to survivors who don't see a way out and puts the responsibility back where it belongs - on those who emotionally, physically and/or sexually abuse others because they have some type and degree of power over them.
Please do yourself a kindness and let go of the shame, you don't deserve it, none of us do. :hug:
I have a lot of thoughts about that phrase but I'm not sure if I'll be able to elaborate them all here. I have heard that phrase a lot over the years of my healing journey. For a long time I actually took it as an empowering phrase especially in terms of establishing and holding boundaries with others. More and more recently though I have been questioning this and myself ... have I just taken this phrase to create impenetrable walls around me to actually keep others out? I'm not sure I know the answer anymore. And I'm not sure if there is a right or wrong answer either.
But you mention how you noticed feelings of shame come up for you when you stumbled on that phrase and I think that's enough to pay attention to. (meaning: if the phrase doesn't sit right with you, you don't have to embrace it). And I do think that you're right that this phrase and trauma don't seem to mix well.
Kizzie and lostwanderer, I appreciate the perspective and thoughts.
I do think I saw that phrase in the context of discussing boundary setting. I do agree that I have needed work on boundary setting. But I think the reasons for needing that work are important too.
It is helpful to be reminded that if something doesn't resonate for me I don't have to hold onto it.
Thank you for bringing this here, rainy - it's given me a lot to ponder.
A phrase like this is sooo tricky.
On the one hand, I can see what they're saying, kinda like what PC wrote in response to one of my posts the other day: when we really start believing who we are, that we're good people and when we know we deserve good things (I'm paraphrasing PC), we start receiving the good things we deserve. This was a wonderful post:
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16242.msg145929#msg145929
But a phrase like this could also easily be read like: you were wearing the short skirt so you asked for it. Which I really really don't agree with and thoroughly dislike. :thumbdown:
Just my thoughts here.
I guess my point was that often as survivors we let people crash our boundaries because we have had to employ that strategy to avoid further abuse. I would add to that "until we are ready to make those boundaries stronger and not let that happen any longer". That said, I think it takes a massive amount of courage to finally stand one's ground after years, sometimes a lifetime of being abused/neglected. It is about finally understanding at some point we do not deserve to be treated badly and that takes unlearning years of training and get to a point when we will enforce our boundaries.
Above all else though IMO we need to be compassionate with ourselves and think about why we don't have great boundaries in the first place. There are good reasons and they don't include being weak as I see it, it's about knowing deep inside we must do certain things to keep ourselves safe until we feel strong enough and deserving enough to stand our ground.
It's too simplistic to look at the phrase without considering the context of why we as survivors often don't enforce our boundaries because to do so will cause shame. Shame is something we do all too well, compassion and understanding not so much until we are a ways into recovery.
:grouphug:
That's appreciated, Kizzie, thank you!
:grouphug:
Quote from: rainydiary on September 05, 2024, 11:12:25 PMI do think I saw that phrase in the context of discussing boundary setting. I do agree that I have needed work on boundary setting. But I think the reasons for needing that work are important too.
I've often been aware of this confusion. In my opinion it's simply imperative to separate the two. The appearance is that they are somehow "inter-dependent". But I firmly believe that they are not. One is a
consequence of the other. But needing to set boundaries doesn't mean that the "fault" lies with that person. However setting boundaries is the responsibility of the individual. It is possible to be responsible, but not at fault. It's an important distinction to make... and in regards to abuse, incredibly important to make as well.
Quote from: rainydiary on September 05, 2024, 11:12:25 PMIt is helpful to be reminded that if something doesn't resonate for me I don't have to hold onto it.
Absolutely! Rather it seems something IS resonating as a feeling of shame is coming up, and that's perhaps very interesting to explore.
Often I know the feeling I'm feeling is "wrong", but I still feel it so it's part of me. What I try to do is figure out where it's coming from so as to better be able to change it.
It's a tricky area. This goes directly into the philosophical concept of Polarity. I find it very interesting.
Quote from: Chart on September 06, 2024, 05:12:46 PMI've often been aware of this confusion. In my opinion it's simply imperative to separate the two. The appearance is that they are somehow "inter-dependent". But I firmly believe that they are not. One is a consequence of the other. But needing to set boundaries doesn't mean that the "fault" lies with that person. However setting boundaries is the responsibility of the individual. It is possible to be responsible, but not at fault. It's an important distinction to make... and in regards to abuse, incredibly important to make as well.
:yeahthat:
I think it also touches on shame as rainy said. When we are shame bound, we are likely to take things personally (as everything is about us) and therefore we are at fault, we are wrong in our minds, but to me, that's child consciousness talking and, as you said Chart, there is the adult consciousness where we can be responsible in the here and now. As Kizzie said, it takes time to get to that point and be able to separate the two.
Rainydiary, thank you for starting this thread. This is a complex topic that goes deep to the heart of social perceptions, language meaning, emotional reactions, mutual understanding, explicit, implicit, etc etc.
"Responsibility" seems to be one of the major social themes these days. To my way of thinking, vast proportions of humans look first and foremost to the errors of others, long before they examine their own position in the dynamic. The "fault" is very simply someone else's. The problem is that this is neither true nor false. It's not black and white. So it can be extremely difficult to wrap our head around, especially when feeling strong emotions (like guilt).
I encourage everyone to look into the concept of Polarity which actually goes back thousands of years. Understanding it's implications was a real revelation for me and gave me an enormous appreciation of human nature and why the world is so messed up.
Unfortunately the only good link/resource I have is in French. But I'm pretty sure Wiki gives a good overview of the philosophical aspect.
I had responded to this and it's not here, rainy. I think my internet is glitching.
Anyway, I just wanted to support how you feel about this "saying"..there are several mainstream sayings that completely miss the dynamics of narcissistic abuse, gaslighting, scapegoating, smear campaigns. They are victim blaming to say the least.
A big reason I stopped going to therapists. They loooove that saying. I already blamed myself for everything from an early age. It's taken a long long time to un-warp the notions that the abuse and lack of love were all my fault, and then I could never fix it.
So, to keep being told by people who I was literally paying to help me-they were the experts, right?- that I taught them how to treat me. That all of my relationship struggles later were me teaching them how to treat me. I literally almost offed myself on this premise alone.
Very very damaging, that one. I think in the end that I see these types of sayings as an extension of a society that really does not relate to narcissistic abuse unless they have experienced for themselves. They come from people who think they have it all figured out, but really I have no clue. Another indication that we will likely never be understood here, but I've decided to be ok with that. I get it now, but it still hurts viscerally.
To be clear, this statement "You teach others how to treat you" CANNOT EVER apply to children. During the developmental period only one thing matters to the child: survival. And as a child is entirely dependent upon their caregivers it is unquestionable that they are in ANY way "responsible" for how they are treated.
Once a person's brain has "finished" the greater part of its development, only then can we begin to understand that the patterns and conditioning of this person (learned through being abused as a child) comes into any semblance of "personal responsibility", AND NOT for the abuse they were subjected to, but rather the fundamental concept of individuality and self-actuation... as well as the refusal to continue life in "victim status".
I have this very day immensely empowered myself by recognizing a pattern of manipulation and disrespect by my daughter and my ex-wife (both of whom are 100% unconscious of what they have inflicted upon me). (Long story short, I was at the police station today for my ex-wife's narcissistic incapacity to have a relationship with her daughter in a responsible manner...)
Recognizing the pattern of how I am being treated, I have taken significant steps today to "counter" and "negate" this demeaning behavior. I have reacted in a manner that refuses to "feed" into my abuse by both my daughter (11 yrs) and my ex-wife (51 yrs).
I can ONLY do this once I recognize how my OWN behavior has "permitted" others to abuse me (my whole life). Once I recognize this, I can change my behavior, not accepting, not allowing, and very simply self-establishing respect and integrity in my interactions with toxic (and non-toxic) people.
My "energy" changes... and automatically I am treated differently. I "refuse" the bad, manipulative, cruel, uncaring, idiotic, insensitive treatment by others. I express this from a deep level and can send the signal that this behavior on their part is unacceptable (and could even be detrimental to them) because I am a person of integrity and posses a fair amount of self-worth and self-power.
THIS is the meaning of taking HEALTHY responsibility for our current and continuing abuse by toxic people around us.
Wow Chart, that is powerful.
Phoebes I'm sorry your t wasn't more sensitive to what was going on from you and you were able to recognize how much you blamed yourself and how damaging that was to you. I remember being with my second therapist and him wanting to make an evaluation as to whether I was a little bit borderline or histrionic because I was still basically enmeshed with my npd family and it felt like he was saying it's me, my fault that I'm so emotional. He also suggested that my m might be narcissistic and that didn't compute for me until 10 years later. Sometimes I feel that when therapists say things, they don't account for how it's going to be handled by a trauma addled brain. Of course I couldn't see that my m was a narc because I was so conditioned to me being the problem. My whole family was telling me what "I" had to do (basically don't have boundaries and listen to the things we tell you). It wasn't until I found out about cptsd some 10 years later that I could begin to say, it's not me.
For me it's almost a catch 22 that what do you mean I'm showing people how to treat me when that's the only thing I've ever known growing up? Like how can this be my fault? On the other hand, these are probably not the healthiest or best patterns that I've learned (the other catch 22 being the younger I probably learned them, the more safe and needed they feel) and how do I get to the point where I separate that it's not about me (shame) and about what happened to me?
I'm sorry again that you felt like that.
Sending you support,
dolly
Thank you Dollyvee for your response to Phoebes. I feel like my post kinda glossed over her experience.
Phoebes, I too feel angry at therapists who place the "blame" on the ones struggling to deal with the toxic people in their lives. This is insensitive and unjust. It clearly misses the fundamental element of developmental trauma: We cannot just rewire our brain after an upbringing of unrelenting abuse. Children are the victims and just turning 18 years of age doesn't mean that experience can just be "moved on from". At this stage of my healing I spot therapists like this straight away. In my search for a therapist a year ago I called one out and openly questioned her implication that I was somehow at fault. I also contradicted my psychiatrist when he asserted that anti-depressants treat the root causes of mental illness. I've learned a lot in a year of Cptsd consciousness, and I'm not going to let these things pass anymore. Knowledge is power and we here who have direct experience have every right to speak up.
Desert Flower, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your compliment. I feel very strongly about self-empowerment and believe I've understood how to go about it in a very healthy manner. Thank you for your validation it really touches me.
This is a very interesting thread. Thank you for starting it, rainydiary.
For me, part of the problem has been that for the longest time I didn't even realise I was allowed to have boundaries. Therefore the only way for me to deal with people who might or did transgress them was to put up with it or flee. I would flee with no explanation usually. Since I was not allowed to have boundaries what would have been the point of discussing them? And of course if you simply "put up and shut up" then I guess you do show people that you are prepared to put up and shut up. Even well meaning and considerate people are entitled to assume that their behaviour is acceptable if you don't indicate otherwise. I am not talking here about obviously toxic behaviour, which everyone should know is wrong and ideally nobody should engage in. I am talking about the small day to day carelessnesses or whatever that somebody could (and probably would) gladly try to curb if they knew someone found it distressing.
I hate the concept of therapists going around saying we are to blame, though. That's awful. They should be helping us to see where we might be giving out mixed or unclear messages so we can deal with that. And helping us can absolutely be done without blaming us.
I just wanted to say that I don't think my t was trying to blame me (and this is only my experience), but trying to make a clinical evaluation of the situation based on the information and practice standards at the time, which was 20 years ago before cptsd came on the radar. However, it's probably taken me 20 years to see that and that it wasn't necessarily about "me." This goes back to my first comment where I think that when we're shame based sometimes things hit that "shame spot," and because I was so used to it being about me and my fault, it was familiar to take what he was saying in that way. I'm sure I still do it now to some degree with my current t, but am trying to unpack that and understand why I can be so defensive at times.
I think it's along the lines of what Chart was saying and that sometimes you have a concept and then there's the concept when it applies to you. There's something in that interpretation that can go awry if toxic shame isn't taken into account potentially. It's like I know this may seem very simple to other people to take on board, but my brain doesn't process it that way.
I don't think this is simple for anybody DV. Take the word "disorder" in cptsd. This hits a nerve for some people. Any word, phrase, concept, idea will have different implications for different people. And when those implications tap our emotions, especially around fierce forces like Trauma, the reactions can be all over the place.
For me the trick is not to let an emotion pass without recognizing that ultimately it comes from inside me (regardless of who put it there when I was a child, now it's in me). So I have to deal with it and maybe, just maybe, this person who triggered me with this emotional (by their actions or language or whatever) is completely oblivious of their effect. And regardless of their level of awareness, I have to go through all sorts of hoops and ladders to "figure out" the whole complex mess... Is it their fault? Mine? Should I get angry? Cry? Run?
Only with time will I eventually understand and start to see the different possibilities. And I've found that all too often it's ME and even if it isn't... the "other one" aint gonna apologize or agree or change... So it's STILL my problem... What am I gonna go about it?
I'm gonna try and change, not necessarily accept, but get where this person or subject doesn't trigger me and take me away from living harmoniously.
That's my objective anyway... doesn't always work :)
Sorry for the rant...
:hug:
I'm one of those who doesn't like the word "disorder" because it doesn't capture the fact that we developed our symptoms in response to being abused/neglected. It's all about us being "disordered" and is shame inducing IMO, when in fact we creatively developed skills to survive. I much prefer Complex Trauma Response.
It's the same for "We teach others how to treat us." It implies that we are at fault in some way for not having good boundaries and again is shame inducing for so many of us. Maybe if a T said something that acknowledged that we hadn't been taught good boundaries and then suggested doing some work in this area so we could learn how to protect ourselves, it would not sound like we're at fault. It's different in intent and tone.
I also have trouble with clinicians who write about resiliency as something we are lacking. Actually IMO we are utterly resilient to have survived the unthinkable. If, however, it's referred to as replacing those skills with others that are more positive to protect ourselves in a healthier way it likely would be easier to hear.
I guess it's all in how and why something is said. I'm all for compassion and understanding.
Thank y'all for the responses as well. I think many therapist say what they have heard and know. Maybe this saying fell on their ears differently, they took it as a positive, and it got adopted into their slogans of toxic positivity.. I'm sure they didn't intend to be so damaging. That said, this is why I don't have a therapist, and I take the, with a grain of salt. In the end we have to heal ourselves and believe ourselves. I know having a supportive relationship (if they are supportive in the right ways) is a big positive for people who can afford it.
Rainy
I've heard that same quote many times over the years. "You teach people how to treat you." It's sort of a crass way of saying, "Just stand up to your bullies." When I'm feeling strong, I agree with it. When I'm feeling defeated, which is most of the time, it offends me because I was clearly taught how to take abuse, so I'm the one who was taught how to be treated. In my childhood, I was specifically told never to stand up to bullies, but to just ignore them until they go away. If I'd have fought back, it would have embarrassed my parents to be called to the school for fighting. If I stood up to family at home, I was outmatched. Three elder siblings and two parents would band together to fight me back down until I caved and gave in. How am I supposed to rise up from that training and just "teach people how to treat me"?
NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
I could teach people how to treat me if I felt like I had the power or the right to do so. I need to learn that I deserve respect before I demand it. To me it boils down to the old "which came first, the Chicken or the egg?" adage. I can't teach people how to treat me with respect until I feel like I have the right to do so. Someone taught me to be a doormat, and now I have to be a doormat that has to teach people how to respect me? So much easier said than done.
For me, teaching and learning have to happen in tandem. I need help from good, qualified helpers to reteach me how to believe in myself enough to know how I want to be treated before I can just stand up to the bullies and demand respect. Standing up to an army of bullies is just not going to happen in a person who has already had the fight beaten out of me.
I've often seen myself as an unarmed, lone soldier, surrounded by enemies. TV and Hollywood create these super-human characters that save the world against entire armies, but in real life, I, as a lone soldier can't teach an army of enemies how to treat me.
I guess I agree that we do present ourselves in ways that show the world who we are, and some people will take advantage of that, so it's very cruel to just tell those of us who feel unable to stand up to them to just stand up to them.
The thing I hate most about bullying is that it works. Rising up out of the victim role, for me, has been a slow, careful process of baby steps. I still don't stand up for myself very well, but I'm starting to feel like maybe one day in the not-too-distant future I'll be better at it than I am now.
Quote from: Kizzie on September 05, 2024, 03:32:52 PMQuote from: rainydiary on September 05, 2024, 12:07:38 AMI was looking up something lately based on how I was feeling. I saw an article that said something along the lines of "you teach others how to treat you." This phrase rubs me the wrong way and I'm curious what others think. I've been experiencing a lot of shame since reading this.
I can only imagine how much it rubs you the wrong way and causes you to feel shame given it puts the responsibility (blame) for our abuse on us. I think the phrase should be "Perpetrators teach their victims--children and adults--how to behave in order to survive". That better reflects what happens to survivors who don't see a way out and puts the responsibility back where it belongs - on those who emotionally, physically and/or sexually abuse others because they have some type and degree of power over them.
Please do yourself a kindness and let go of the shame, you don't deserve it, none of us do. :hug:
Your words make me feel powerful.
I think I will accept that the boundary setting doesn't happen with a snap of a finger. I want to learn to accept that it takes time and before I'm there, the "imperfect" me is worthy of patience and understanding. Those who don't appreciate me are worth being shut out by my boundaries. I need to gradually learn not to habitually fawn. That's so difficult at this moment. Because I fawn so my inner critic feels safe. And that's when I need to remember to tell her that she's wrong! The real assertiveness and boundary setting make me safe. ...I really hope I can always do this, have the courage to do this. Compassionate pat on the back!
Quote from: Echoecho on February 04, 2025, 07:10:40 AMYour words make me feel powerful.
I think I will accept that the boundary setting doesn't happen with a snap of a finger. I want to learn to accept that it takes time and before I'm there, the "imperfect" me is worthy of patience and understanding. Those who don't appreciate me are worth being shut out by my boundaries. I need to gradually learn not to habitually fawn. That's so difficult at this moment. Because I fawn so my inner critic feels safe. And that's when I need to remember to tell her that she's wrong! The real assertiveness and boundary setting make me safe. ...I really hope I can always do this, have the courage to do this. Compassionate pat on the back!
Wow, that is very insightful and kind and compassionate to yourself - big thumbs up to you! :thumbup: Like all things CPTSD, boundary setting takes time, encouragement to frightened you and some words of wisdom to your Inner Critic to stand down because you got this.
Quote from: Kizzie on February 04, 2025, 05:09:31 PMQuote from: Echoecho on February 04, 2025, 07:10:40 AMYour words make me feel powerful.
I think I will accept that the boundary setting doesn't happen with a snap of a finger. I want to learn to accept that it takes time and before I'm there, the "imperfect" me is worthy of patience and understanding. Those who don't appreciate me are worth being shut out by my boundaries. I need to gradually learn not to habitually fawn. That's so difficult at this moment. Because I fawn so my inner critic feels safe. And that's when I need to remember to tell her that she's wrong! The real assertiveness and boundary setting make me safe. ...I really hope I can always do this, have the courage to do this. Compassionate pat on the back!
Wow, that is very insightful and kind and compassionate to yourself - big thumbs up to you! :thumbup: Like all things CPTSD, boundary setting takes time, encouragement to frightened you and some words of wisdom to your Inner Critic to stand down because you got this.
Quote from: Kizzie on February 04, 2025, 05:09:31 PMQuote from: Echoecho on February 04, 2025, 07:10:40 AMYour words make me feel powerful.
I think I will accept that the boundary setting doesn't happen with a snap of a finger. I want to learn to accept that it takes time and before I'm there, the "imperfect" me is worthy of patience and understanding. Those who don't appreciate me are worth being shut out by my boundaries. I need to gradually learn not to habitually fawn. That's so difficult at this moment. Because I fawn so my inner critic feels safe. And that's when I need to remember to tell her that she's wrong! The real assertiveness and boundary setting make me safe. ...I really hope I can always do this, have the courage to do this. Compassionate pat on the back!
Wow, that is very insightful and kind and compassionate to yourself - big thumbs up to you! :thumbup: Like all things CPTSD, boundary setting takes time, encouragement to frightened you and some words of wisdom to your Inner Critic to stand down because you got this.
Thank you. I hope I can actually successfully do it and fight my inner critic when she doesn't want to. She is strong and so far most of the time I fail. When it comes to real life I'm afraid of people abandoning me because I stand for myself, especially when it comes to interacting with my abusive parent like individuals. In the end they defeat me. When I see they are happy because they got rid of me I kind of feel good for them because I give them good wishes, but I forgot myself, I tend to not put myself first and it led to unwanted results, but I'll ventilate more. I'm afraid when I stand for myself it make me look weird and unnatural, it's unnatural for me because I never learned to do it growing up.