Out of the Storm

TW/politics (sorry for that!)

Few. What a day to start this journal!

I'd been trying to formulate my aims for this journal, as a reference point. But reality decided it was showtime even before I wrote the first post. I took a huge step today and I rarely ever say this, but I'm proud of myself.

Someone whom I got to know a few months ago and had been texting with from time to time came with a huge surprise. We had never discussed sensitive topics, so I was shocked that he sent me a picture of himself wearing a maga hat out of the blue. No context. Just bam, in my face. He's not even from the US, which adds to the shock I experienced. It was the night before the US election and my anxiety around that had been steadily rising for a long time apart from this incident.

It was a big trigger. Fight flight. Eventually I managed to partially park it and meditate. That in itself is a huge achievement for me. I slept on it, but was fighting with it at the moments I woke up during the night. Sentences started to form. Slowly but surely it became clear to me where I stand in this matter. How this is not a respectful way to communicate. It was not so much about politics as it was about manners. The basics.

A boundary had been crossed and I was forced to speak up or remain silent. Hiding or showing my true colors. Fawning or fighting. I was not having it this time. Not anymore. Enough with letting it slide and playing safe. My boundaries matter. I matter. People need to take that into consideration.

I took my time to fine-tune what I wanted to say. A civilized, polite message. But very clear and very firm. It felt right. I had to do it. I owed this to myself. It was a big thing for me. Triggering many layers of attachment trauma.

The nerves were coursing through my body. I felt indignation and anger, where I normally only experience fear and shame and that nagging sense of cowardice. Good. Progress.

I pressed send. My heart was in my throat. I noticed it. Didn't allow my thoughts to hijack me. Focused. This was right. It had to be done. And I did. For me. Authenticity. Victory!

Congratulations Sensorgan. You describe it very well!
 :applause:

I appreciate you sharing your experience and am here in the US processing what has happened. 

@Chart
Thank you for your kind words!

@rainydiary
And I appreciate your interest. Good luck over there!

If there's one detrimental turn I "took" in life, it was the one leading away from connection, towards isolation. I was already in my late thirties when I got in touch with the extreme loneliness I'd been increasing every day. It felt as if I had been driving in the wrong direction my whole life, and somehow had to find a way to turn around before I drove off the cliff.

I've opened up a lot since. Yet in daily life I'm mostly alone. Literally. I retired on disability a long time ago. For that I'm eternally grateful. And it has become a challenge in itself.

A chronic sleep disorder dictates a lot of recovery during the day. It often leaves me so tired and dysregulated I'm happy to get the basics and the healthy routines in. A trigger happy stress system makes it hard not to add more overload. By attempts to connect, for instance.

From time to time I take my chances anyway. Some of that has payed off. Some of it blew up in my face. In the end, I don't mind the negative experiences that much. But I do mind how they impact my already fragile health. I can't afford much in this regard. And I can't afford to continue living such an isolated life. My resilience isn't what it used to be.

I'm surviving. I'm in a perpetual state of semi-burnout. Little stress tips the balance. I moved house almost two years ago. I never succeeded in getting my place organized. It remains a big mess. It's not necessarily just a lack of energy. My mind stopped working with me. Certain simple things don't compute anymore. Like how to organize a cabinet. I've rejected help offered by friends. It gives me more stress to have them ask where to put what cup and so forth. Once I accepted one friend to do it for me. It drove me nuts not being able to find stuff after that.

This entry has drifted off to nowhere. I'm posting it anyway ICR!

I am currently working through the ways I isolate and keep myself at the surface rather than connecting.

rainydiary
That's great. And possibly also painful to see. I've noticed I can be very subtly not authentic and therefore disconnected.

I just woke up with a nightmare. I was being humiliated by school kids. This remains a fear of mine till this day. Gosh, I'm amazed this issue had become unconscious again. My physical development was behind that of other boys. This felt very vulnerable at school. Especially in puberty. Paradoxically I was one of the strongest. It wasn't so much that I feared physical conflict. It was my appearance that formed an easy target. I was short. It was years later than other boys when I started to grow into a man. This was sometimes used to tease me with. I retaliated. But it didn't protect my already low self esteem from these blows. My physical appearance was an important factor in what my self image formed into.

When I was late, I had to enter the school building via the playground of the elementary school classes. I was terrified the kids would bully me and a teacher would mistake me for one of the kids and stop me from going in.

All my life I've looked a lot younger than I am. Objectively. People treat you according to how they perceive you. Less seriously, in my case. I'm 44 now, and people sometimes still refer to me as a boy. While the life I've lived makes me feel a couple of hundred years old. It's very painful to me. It ties into not being seen by my M.

I think a lot of guys my age would love to look like thirty. For me it remains painful to hear people think I'm so much younger. I can see it hurts because I'm attached to being perceived a certain way. The need for validation keeps me from feeling the rawness. I'm fighting with this reality in my mind because it brings up unresolved trauma. So I haven't fully embraced how I actually look because I haven't fully let in the hurt it came to represent. I'm fighting against the hurt, not against my appearance.

 :hug:

Chart
:hug:

Posting on this forum is triggering, I noticed. ICR has gotten pretty loud. I'm afraid to offend people. To slip in something which really hurts somebody who is already in such a difficult position.

I've spoken about very personal matters elsewhere on the forum, and I'm afraid to be reprimanded for the content because it's rather radical. It's also an attempt to speak my truth, which I feel is important for me to do much more often.

I'm trying to get a feel for the forum culture here, so that I'm clear on the bandwidth I can operate within. Part of that is out of respect for other members, and part of it is out of avoidance. It's the latter that I've tried to challenge by taking some chances. Because I'm new here, this is an opportunity to experiment a bit. It does feel like I'm risking losing something valuable.

When I'm in a new social situation, I don't set the tone. I wait for others to take the stage while I assess how aspects about me would be accepted or not and filter accordingly when I do engage. I'm afraid of conflict. Beneath that I'm afraid to become the target of anger, judgment, condemnation, ridicule. Something old and nonverbal which hoovers over many social interactions.

The past six months or so I've had a couple of incidents where I chose my own needs over that ancient reflex to go for the safety cage of avoidance. I'm slowly learning that it's OK to have needs, wishes, boundaries and a personality and that I deserve my own loyalty to them. I can see that such a shift of commitment, from what I don't want, to what I do want, is significant and ripples out in all facets of life. It's like finally getting on my own team. I think it's time to re-read Steven C. Hayes - A Liberated Mind; How to Pivot Toward What Matters.

 :thumbup:
Oh boy, there we have a subject that goes deep. "Who hurts who and how and what's too much and unfair... can we disagree without our emotions getting involved?"

Yes, Sensorgan, you approach Pandora's box with this. The Forum has been good for me too, pushing some of my limits, in both directions. I've definitely hurt others here, but it's never intentional. So heartfelt apologies and we can move on, still frieds. Sufficiently distant it doesn't cut too deep. Not the same with family members. That can take decades to move past. But here we can test some emotional waters and see what surfaces. But everybody's sensitive and no one seeks out to denigrate. Ee are like children still, learning and wondering what is truly us and fair.

I think all this is very very important.
 :hug:

Thank you for sharing that Chart. It's helpful to learn about your experiences with this subject. I did expect things to work in the mature and constructive way you describe. It gives me some peace of mind to have that confirmed. I resonate with your perspective. We're all learning as we go. And family, yeah, that's on another level of challenge.  :hug:

I see myself slipping into the danger zone. Into the existential void. Day after day I sit here, looking at a screen. At home. Alone. I have nowhere to go to and nothing is expected of me by anyone. I don't have to worry about food on the table, a roof over my head, health care, or material things. That's great. And deadly lonely and unfulfilling. It's such a paradoxical situation.

A chronic sleep disorder has been sapping the life out of me for decades. Some periods are worse than others. Currently I'm in a worse period. I'm tired of dragging my corpse around. Of making myself do those hard things that do help to feel less bad. I notice that the discipline which has helped me to stay somewhat afloat for many years is waning. I never had problems with intrinsic motivation. Not even during the darkest periods. I kept exercising, eating healthy, meditating, looking for ways to increase my quality of life, and so forth.

Ultimately, none of that means anything when I continue to lead such an isolated existence. It undermines everything. I will never be anything which remotely resembles healthy in isolation. Never. This is not a new insight. It's also nothing I haven't attempted to address in various ways. Those ways, however carefully chosen, keep ending in overwhelm and often a greater sense of isolation. I've had some great success mixed in with that too. It's the sustainability where it rubs. I feel trapped.

This is what I marinate in when I'm alone. I can't accept that this is it for me, for the rest of my days. And I don't think I should either. After all the things I've tried and inner sparks followed, I keep ending up here. I had enough positive experiences to know that I have it in me to relate to others in a joyous, fulfilling way. That this is a vital part of me that has been starving for so long. I did get a taste of belonging and of who I am in a safe, social context. How to have even a little of that in daily life appears to be incredibly hard to arrange for me.

Words feel so inadequate in response to what you've been going through. I struggle so much when there are weeks/months with disturbed sleep, so can hardly imagine the toll that decades of your sleep disorder would take.

I know that connecting with people online is very different to being around people but for what it's worth, you are not alone on here. There are others who can relate to your struggle and admire your strength in continuing to eat healthily, exercise, meditate, and keep trying approaches to bring positive experiences back into your life.

We joined OOTS at around the same time and your messages have meant a lot (although there's no pressure to continue messaging - my own returns to the forum are unpredictable and there may be long gaps). You are in my thoughts.

I am also grappling with isolation and relate to what you shared.

Funny how we can nonetheless "be around" people but still be alone. I just went and talked with a very nice young couple to help them pour a concrete floor. I was terrified all the way through. They had no idea. All went well, but when I left I was so relieved. The terror was... was... "annoying", if that makes sense..? I'm so used to it now... Just want to cry when I think about it. I'm considering trying antidepressants again. Is a life half lived still a life?

Sanctuary
Thank you for your kind words. I'm having trouble imagining anybody here waking up refreshed and revived, and eager to take on another day in the morning. Sleep is a big thing. And not separate from how we function when awake. The sleep side of things may be more pronounced in my case, but I think the long, exhausting grind of our trauma's is a big part of what we're all facing here. I'm afraid you do know what toll that takes. But I appreciate what you're saying. Chronic poor sleep is rough. Thank you for acknowledging that.

The recognition here is unlike my experiences elsewhere. It's validating to see people dealing with similar issues and viewing that through a cPTSD lens. I'm so tired of misdiagnoses and having to explain something so elusive and devastating to people who can't fathom what living such a life is like. It takes a bit of the loneliness away when I read what others are going through, and it's encouraging to see how they keep moving forward. I'm happy if I can reciprocate in some way.

It doesn't compute with my low self esteem that my messages have meant a lot to you, so I'll accept the homework this invites me to do. For me it's a relief to be able to speak about cPTSD with somebody who's in the trenches herself. Thank you for being so open about your struggles. That in itself is a big invitation for me to do the same. What you and others here communicate, revived my conclusion that nothing ever was wrong with us. We're all just human beings, working very hard to come back from things that overwhelmed our coping capacities. :hug:


rainydiary
I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you for sharing that. :hug:


Chart
Yeah, being around people can feel even more lonely. It's maddening to feel that and terror on top of it. Time after time. It makes sense that that's annoying at some level too. What has frustrated me so much about it is having the willingness to do whatever it takes, but still landing there after all these years. I do have a strong experiential lead where to take it from here though. I'll journal about it at some point.

AD's may or may not have helped me in the past. I took SSRI's for about 12, and SNRI's for about 5 years. A few desperate times per year I wonder if life would be better if I'd start taking them again. Then I wonder if my chemistry is permanently messed up and this is the way to make things somewhat bearable. But that never sticks for long. I've felt horrible and perfectly fine with and without meds. The past 6 years have been the best and I wasn't on them. I have even experienced what it's like to be free from the terror you speak about in situations that would have been horribly stressful before. With this very brain and body, without meds. The way I see this most of the time is that I don't want to put some tape over that flickering red light on my dashboard. I am still alive because I took it very seriously and followed my intuition through the depths of darkness. I hope I have some more of that in me. I'm not making a case against AD's by the way. This is a highly individual consideration and taking AD's again could be the best choice for you right now. :hug:

SenseOrgan

I've been absent from the forum for several weeks and have been just now trying to get caught up with the posts I've been missing. So, I just read this entire thread from start to now.  First off, I can really feel you. Nothing you say is foreign to me. I feel the same way about most things as you write about on the forum.

I was also a late bloomer, and I also paid the price. Like you I was also surprisingly strong. Starting at age 9, my dad bought a pickup truck, a wheelbarrow, a chainsaw, two axes, two weed whackers (which were not powered back then: they were a blade on the end of a wooden stick. I literally beat the underbrush to death with it) and he would take me up into the woods on Saturdays to log the forest, and cut a roadway into the side of a hill, by hand to make a clearing on some land he owned. That went on until I was about 16 and he sold the lot. As a boy in Catholic school the other boys tried to beat me up a few times, but they had no idea how strong I was. It was core strength from years of heavy lifting, climbing and falling trees, swinging an ax, laboring over a chainsaw, pushing an oversized wheelbarrow, overloaded with firewood up into the bed of the truck. I did not have those pretty gym muscles that make us look stronger than we are, so I was stronger than them, but looked weaker. But like you said above, we aren't taken for who we are, we are taken for how we look. While my strength was on my side, not much else was. Smaller boys get picked on. Period. And the issue stayed with me my whole life. I always felt a need to find ways to sneakily show my strength.

Before I retired, when I was working in my cubical, the water cooler was right next to my desk. Whenever it would empty, I'd make sure people were watching and I'd go over to it and lift the 5-gallon bottle of water bottle off the floor, spin it end over end and flop it into the water dispenser, 4 feet above the floor, all using only ONE ARM. I'd pretend I didn't know anyone was watching. I was 59 years old then, and like a little kid, I was still trying to show my peers I was strong. And yes. THAT'S WHY I DID IT. It would have been easier to use both hands, but I was making it about showing off. Why? Residual pain from having been treated like a weakling for too long.

In my twenties I experienced what you talk about with people thinking I was young and stupid. I once heard that Hydrogen Peroxide could turn brown hair gray so, without knowing what I was doing, I used to put a little in my sideburns to try and start going gray young just so people would stop treating me like a dumb kid. It didn't work. And now I'm 64 and fully gray.

I get really into your posts. I just feel like you are saying so many things that I can connect with.  Your friend's maga hat photo was a good story. I'm impressed that you took the courage to write to him about it. I know the feelings of an upset stomach after hitting send, but I'm impressed you didn't hold back. Courage is the act of working through our fears. What you did took courage.

I'm so sorry to hear of your sleep disorders. I have them from time to time. I do sleep on a CPAP machine because of Apnea, but also, I have times when the only way I can sleep is with some now-legal pot edibles I can buy here. I eat one a night, otherwise I'm up all night, or waking up every hour to pee or just stare at the ceiling for a while.

I'm sorry to read of how out of sorts you've been feeling lately. I'm feeling it too, which is why I was so uninvolved with the forum for a few weeks. I was too isolated to even write.  I do know that this time of year adds to my distress. The fall is a trigger time for so many people, me included. I don't know if you have seasonal moods, but I have a few. My best friend turned into a monster when I was ten. It happened right after Spring break 1970. Ever since then I have bad depression and abandonment issues that flair up big time during the Spring break time frame. During the Holidays, right now, I find myself really connected to my childhood abuse. Sometimes it gets so bad that I wake up from a sleep not knowing if it's 2024, or 1974. Dissociation draws me back into the past as if it's happening right now.

I am writing too much. I write too much. I say too much. I'll go now. But I'll be checking in more regularly as I'm starting to feel a little better.

Papa Coco

Papa Coco
Thank you very much for sharing that. I'll respond properly later.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

It took me three hours to get out of bed this morning, because the night had apparently been so terrible. Muscular tension or whatever it is and just plain exhaustion. This is like the old days. Normally I can force myself out of bed and I do so because sleep restriction does make things less bad.

When I checked the news, I saw a big item which relates to my income. All of a sudden it's uncertain what will happen with it. The decision that was once taken about my situation is at risk. Just like that. It was once determined that I don't have the ability to work and never will. All question marks behind that conclusion aside, this outcome was an immense relief for me. I did not have to worry about income anymore and thus about having to deal with the extra stress from a work situation. Just being alive was hardly bearable for me. If fate would have decided otherwise, I would most likely have ended my life.

There's a big scandal in the making about the governmental agency concerned. It's been a big steaming mess for decades and every so many years national politics makes a futile attempt to clean it up. Another one is in the pipeline and it's uncertain what will happen and when. The minister is looking into it. What he decides can have far reaching consequences for me. It's not looking good.

To my surprise I'm not in panic. I do realize that I don't know what will happen and that it's out of my hands. I will have to deal with whatever is decided. Devastating or not. Regardless of what my mind comes up with now. I do have a lot of worries and scenario's that do play out in my mind. I stop them as best as I can. A part of me is open to the possibility that this, if things will change for me, can be a blessing in disguise. This is not toxic positivity. It has happened to me before. I truly do not know how this could affect me. It's all thoughts now, not reality.

In any case, life unfolds as it does. Not necessarily as I think it should. I'm realizing how different I respond now than I would have several years ago. There's a very big difference between those. I feel gratitude for what happened, for what has been set in motion that one day with aya. I did start to open up to life as it actually is. Sometimes it's gone again. But it shows up in moments like these.

Thank you for sharing all that SenseOrgan, it helps me. Acceptance when done consciously and without coercion or force can be very relieving.
 :hug:

SenseOrgan,

I'm sorry to hear of the possible upheaval in your future. Not knowing if we're going to be okay tomorrow is a big worry.

I'm glad to hear you aren't panicking over it, just expressing concern.

Please don't feel obligated to respond to my long posts. I know I write too much. It doesn't hurt my feelings when I'm not responded to on every topic. Just writing a quick hello lets me know I'm still welcome here and that's all I need to feel good about myself.

My joke, which people who know me find quite funny is: The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The longest distance between two points is found when asking me for directions.

Papa Coco

Papa Coco

Thanks so much for reading this entire! thread, for sharing here and for your kind words! Never before has anybody shared experiences with me that are so similar in this specific regard. Thank you so much for that. I wasn't even aware just how much this void has contributed to my sense of alienation, of otherness. I know there is no justification for that, but the illusion of being "the only one" is hard to see through in isolation.

I shocked some much bigger boys when I was a kid by kicking their *. I'm not even sure if it was just physical strength. I just didn't tolerate injustice. When justice was on my side, I felt no shame and fear didn't stop me. I'd unleash something like the energy of a victim willing to risk his life for vengeance. That energy did not come from what those kids thought they could get away with... It came from a very deep place I don't think other kids tapped into. At that point it didn't matter who was in front of me or how big they were.

When I went to secondary school a lot changed for me. It was very intimidating. This is where I mastered the art of using humor as armor. It was one of the most destructive "decisions" I ever took. Off course it could not protect me from the insecurity about my hight and physical development. Off course things got to the sensitive guy I tried so hard not to be. Nobody could touch me. And nobody knew me. I was acting like a stand up comedian while I was dying inside.

I stopped being funny years ago. Thank god I don't have to keep the whole world at bay with my witty remarks anymore! And just like you said, this insecurity never left me. It has showed up in all sorts of ways. Those trauma traces still linger in my system. I have not felt all of it, because I'm still defending against it in ever more subtle ways.

I can totally get why you tried to grey your sideburns. Same sentiment. There isn't much sideburn to grey in my case. It barely developed. I had a goatee in my twenties and clearly remember my therapist urging me to shave it off for therapeutic reasons. Eventually I did, and it was terrifying to walk around with my baby face. So exposed and vulnerable. Just like I had felt in school underneath my facade. Nowadays I keep a bit of a shadow beard going. I'd still feel very uncomfortable with a clean shave. Sad but true. On the rare occasion I do purchase alcoholic beverages in the super market, the old fear of being asked for my ID can come up. I've passed the legal age by decades now, and the grey hairs are slowly marching in, but this hasn't left me. This * runs deep. It doesn't help some people are shocked when I tell them my age. People are capable of suffering just about anything. That I take this specific thing as something negative has nothing to do with how I look. It's my mind resisting pain and therefore perpetuating the suffering.

Sleeping with a CPAP can't be easy, I reckon. Do you get many stops per hour if you don't use it? A sleep study revealed that I have dozens of "micro arousals" per night and wake up so shortly that I don't register it. I imagine that the resulting fragmented sleep has a lot of similarities with apnea. It's madness. Thank god for the invention of CPAP. In the not so distant past I often used Cannabis oil for sleep. I'm not sure if it helped the quality of my sleep, but I remember having some unintended psychedelic experiences once in a while.

My sleep is usually better in the colder seasons. I've started to dislike the heat and appreciate the cold more over the years. As far as sleep and mood goes, I've pretty much stopped to look for answers in favor of being with what is.

I'm sorry you were so isolated you couldn't even visit the forum and the fall is a trigger time for you. It sound awful that the years are mixed in your current state. I do know what it's like to wake up not knowing where I am, but I think what you describe is of another caliber. It makes me appreciate your visit here even more. I'm getting nothing but good vibes from you. Thank you for being here.

Much love

Chart
Thank you too! It's so good to be here on this wavelength with you :hug:

Good news. Over two years ago I discovered PSIP. It was like I had survived the age of bloodletting and stepped into the modern age of medicine. Finally there was a therapy for what is really going on with me, coming from an actual understanding of the depths of attachment trauma. Far below all the well sounding bs peddled by people who frankly, haven't got the slightest grasp of what they're talking about. I feel this one in my bones.

I'm not even thinking about being healed. I'm thinking about something which actually gets me to the place where that can start. It drives me crazy that nearly every therapist I've ever dealt with believes that changing the story even touches that which matters. That place they themselves have lost touch with, and therefore cannot relate to and connect from. Good intentions and intellectual understanding have nothing to do with this. The system isn't designed around heart based healthcare and that's why it fails so many people who suffer so greatly. I'm sick and tired of being a canary in the coal mine. All I want is a fair chance to live. But I digress on my soapbox...

When I reached out to the PS Institute, I found out there were no therapists in my country. It's basically a US based crowd, even though trainings were given in The Netherlands. This maddening situation continued. Two years later, no therapists. I've been to the US for therapy before and just wasn't up for it again. Even less so in the current political climate. I don't want to offend anyone, but the country scares me.

So the good news. From time to time I check the PSIP therapist list. A recent flareup of despair nudged me to have another look. I saw a therapist not insanely far away on there and decided to reach out. The way things were described had me anticipate there were insurmountable legal barriers for me as a foreigner. But there aren't. We're going to schedule an online consultation and take it from there. I've been ready for this for two years. I'm so ready to relate from a vulnerable place with a safe other! Someone who really gets this and knows what they're doing (equals a great degree of safety for me). There are very few of those around. There isn't anything I'd want to spent my savings on more right now. I have those savings because I don't live. I survive. By Dutch standards I'm poor. If my money can buy me therapy which actually deserves that title, I'm filthy rich and privileged.

 :cheer:

I so hope this therapy is helpful. You deserve to be filthy rich in healing.  :grouphug:

Thank you Armee, fingers crossed.  :grouphug:

The first online preparatory consultation is tomorrow! It's awesome. Wow, that's fast. Now I'm stressed for this. I'm afraid I won't be able to communicate how I was traumatized exactly. That I'll shut down and my cognition will go partially offline. I can't shed the fear that the T will conclude this whole thing is not going to happen for me. It's all thoughts. I see that it's irrational and still I'm in the grips of this. I'll review some old blog posts from elsewhere and the PSIP references and take notes I can reference tomorrow. Just a few days ago I had no clue I'd get this chance this fast, but I'm grabbing it with both hands.

All normal rational fears to have! And I know you said logic doesn't help and it never does when it is trauma. But sometimes getting logical reassurance from someone else helps me even if I have the same logical knowledge and it doesn't help. Does that even make sense?

Anyway, 3 things, maybe 4 or 6 or 10:

1. You are so courageous to try something new and to not give up on feeling better.

2. Not being able to speak about trauma - whether that is literally not being able to open your mouth and get a word out, or if it is that you can't say things in a way that make sense - that is a hallmark of trauma. The symptoms of trauma.

3. This is no more under your control than a stroke victim's ability to form words or movements.

4. If your new therapist does not understand this then she doesn't understand trauma

5. If your new therapist doesn't understand, trauma treatment won't go well.

6. If your new trauma therapist doesn't understand trauma and trauma treatment doesn't go well then the failure is of the therapist not of you.

Got it? Good. Go to therapy. Be as your trauma brings you. See if the therapist understands and can help what trauma actually does.

And no you are not alone in these fears or willingness to bring all the blame onto yourself. Another trauma hallmark.

You are brave.

Best wishes what saying what you want/need to say and having it understood and received.

Armee
Thank you for the reassurance. It did help and yes, you make perfect sense. A big part of my trauma is not being heard. When, in my experience, a lot depends on me being able to communicate something, stress levels go up. This off course makes it more difficult to think. It's a new experience for me to communicate this and get feedback about it from someone who understands. It was great to see your reply pop up here before I had the consultation. It disrupted my normal way of going at it and stewing in anxiety all alone. I have an internal script running that tells me I need to be able to convey my message in a crystal clear way and otherwise there will be doom of some sorts. This T specializes in cPTSD type of issues, so the chance of her drawing dramatic conclusions if I'd have trouble speaking were very slim to begin with.

rainydiary
Thank you. I'm not used to getting support like this. It's wonderful!

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I just finished the first online consultation. It went well. My nerves were all over the place. Video calls are anxiety catalysts for me regardless of the topic or person. I had done a brainstorm the day before, and wrote down the things I wanted to get across. It gave me some peace of mind. I think I managed to verbalize the main points and the complexity of my history. There was nothing structured about it, but I calmed down a bit and could remember some things further into the conversation. I'm glad I prepared the way I did. The clarity prevented overwhelm and shutting down. I remained present during the conversation.

I have a good feeling about the T. Having so much negative experience with the top down, bureaucratic approach in my country, it's almost shocking how laid back and flexible this T is. Sessions with medical ketamine/cannabis will not be a problem to arrange. It looks like we'll have an in person session in the near future. The next online one will be next week. I'm still processing that this is actually happening. It's really good news! I'm so grateful for this opportunity.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on November 20, 2024, 01:13:19 PMGood news. Over two years ago I discovered PSIP.

SenseOrgan, Can you give some more info what PSIP is? I've never heard this acronym. Thanks and very happy it went well!!!

UPDATE
Ok, just found your thread on the subject:
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16432.0
:)

Chart
What's not so much stressed in a lot of PSIP material is the transference part of the modality. This is what strikes me as a very important aspect of the therapy for people with developmental trauma. Here is more on that if you're interested: https://www.psychedelicsomatic.org/post/what-is-the-difference-between-the-sitter-model-and-psychedelic-somatic-interactional-psychotherapy

Update
The article may be unnecessary confusing if you're not familiar with the sitter model as used with, for instance, the MAPS MDMA trials. I have trimmed those parts off and posted the adapted version below the link you already found.

Thank you so much for posting this

Armee
 :grouphug:

I'd not heard of PSIP and have just read a little from your link.

Having read some of your posts since you joined OOTS and having had from them some sense of how difficult things have been for you for so long, it makes me feel incredibly happy to hear that after two years of waiting and hoping, you've not only found a cPTSD specialist PSIP therapist but also things have moved forward so quickly and smoothly that you've been able to see them already!

I'm really glad it went well and that you've got more lined up. Each time it's popped into my mind over the last couple of days, it's made me smile.

 :yeahthat:

I think mdma is going to need to be my next step. I'm so stuck.

Sanctuary
You're so kind, thank you  :hug: This is such a great opportunity. Just finding something I can still see as potentially helpful has become a big deal in itself. No matter the outcome, it's really nice to feel motivated and to get things going again. I've been looking for ways to connect in such a way with a safe other for six years. The current paradigm in my country has made that an impossible search. It's not been easy to know and feel where I need and want to go and not being able to find or create the circumstances for it.

Armee
Is that available to you where you're at? I have no experience with MDMA myself, but I can share that drinking ayahuasca as a last resort has saved my life. There's lots I could add, but it sure did knock me out of a very deep and dark groove I hadn't been able to get out of with all the things I tried the 21 years prior to that. If you proceed with MDMA, I'd be very interested to hear about it.

It's not legal here unfortunately.

It is accessible though.

Someone on here I am forgetting their forum name documented a few rounds with mdma that was really helpful to read. I'm guessing a forum search of mdma will get you there. 

See @Denverite and @PapaCoco for more info about MDMA in the US. There's also a very detailed and moving description by... @Dina describing her MDMA experience and I'm pretty sure she did this work in Holland.
https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=15993.msg142039#msg142039

TW/Spirituality

For me, this is not about death. It is about life.

Armee
I'm watching a talk by Saj Razvi (PSIP pioneer) and stumbled on something that might be intersting to you with regards to MDMA treatment and a potential legal workaround with oxytocin. Two hours and 4 min in, he talks about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N20vPGFCg7M

Chart
Thank you. Is the link referring to @Dina's experiences? It's not working here... I can't find that with a search.

Here is the title and emplacement on the Forum:

Dina's private journey, Started by Dina, April 29, 2024, 03:42:22 PM

Out of the Storm -> Private Groups -> Member Journals -> Dina's private journey

Quote from: SenseOrgan on November 28, 2024, 10:24:55 AMthis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N20vPGFCg7M

Very interesting!!! thank you, SenseOrgan!!!

Around minute 25:00, Saj makes the assertion that all mammals have the capacity to cope with trauma and that this is not new to the autonomic nervous system. However he fails to mention (so far) the difference between singular trauma and repetitive (complex) trauma. I would argue that this distinction is a critical difference.

(I'm so excited by this video I can't help myself from stopping and commenting as it goes along! Sorry :) :

Quote from: SenseOrgan on November 28, 2024, 10:24:55 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N20vPGFCg7M

The videos of the somatic work are VERY intense.

Thanks. That's interesting because the times I feel grounded and centered are when I am with my kids. I can be in the deepest of trenches and as soon as I go to pick up my kids or wake them up or wall in their room it's like I am a new totally OK person

Chart
Thanks again!
Did Saj address your point further along the talk?
Yeah, a lot of PSIP vids are very intense. I didn't expect anyone to watch more than the oxytocin part, to be honest. To me the vids I relate to are a bit like watching a miracle though. Especially when the client's system is playing out attachment ambivalence and finally goes for connection. I've experienced a bit of that with ayahusca, before I knew there was a modality centered around this healing potential.

Armee
Amazing. I'm happy for you that you have those moments in the midst of all this. Thinking about this, it makes sense that this plays out in the repair of attachment in PSIP sessions too.

Yesterday I had the second online consultation with my PSIP T. Since the last one, I had noted some things I thought would be important to add and expand on. One of those was having a panic attack in a vipassana retreat. The issue there was having my eyes closed and being visible to the teacher. Since sustained eye gazing can be part of PSIP, that scares me quite a bit. T insured me that the eye gazing happens in an advanced stage of the therapy, definitively not right away. But wearing eyeshades is part of the usual ketamine assisted sessions. I'm close to certain this would bring up the same thing for me, which would be very soon in the start of the treatment. T is flexible though. I also mentioned that I'm scared for what's coming with PSIP in general.

It feels good to bring up these things. Even though my T is basically still a stranger. Thinking about it, I realize it has helped me to feel safe a lot more to communicate things like these and personal stuff. Simply bringing it up helps. There's a bit of empowerment in there too. And trust in relating as a source of safety. I noticed that I don't have much reservations, which is a good sign to me. My T feels safe.

I'm going to need to arrange some blood tests and an ECG with regards to safety and the ketamine part of the treatment. I have developed a bit of a needle phobia, so I'm not looking forward to that. And I just got a message from my T saying a consultation with the psychiatrist at the ketamine clinic she works with will be scheduled next week. These guys are fast! I wonder if my family doc is going to help me out, because I'm paying for PSIP out of pocket and nobody referred me. I'm thinking about just telling him I've been looking for a suitable treatment for complex trauma for 27 years and just can't find it within the current Dutch health care system. So I've become a therapy snob and am going for a private solution in a foreign country. I'm already dreading having to explain myself. By now more out of frustration than anything else. There is a backup plan if he refuses though.

Best wishes navigating this therapy approach.

SenseOrgan,
I´ve just read your whole thread and somehow it made me feel really connected and at peace, so thank you for that. Wishing you all the best with your therapy.  :cheer:

Quote from: SenseOrgan on November 29, 2024, 12:41:32 PMChart
Thanks again!
Did Saj address your point further along the talk?

No, actually he didn't make the distinction that I mentioned (that being that animals do not experience complex trauma). But this takes nothing away from the overall importance of the presentation and the subject. Thank you again, SenseOrgan, for this information about PSIP. Can I ask where you plan on doing the treatment? Belgium?

I plan on watching the presentation again. There are many VERY interesting correlations I made on a personal level and with the various techniques I've been working with. Thank you thank you!

Hi SenseOrgan,

I'm sorry that you're experiencing so much isolation at the moment. I hope the forum is a way to relieve some of that.

I just finished reading your journal and the parts about dealing with PSIP. I have been microdosing for a couple of years now, and perhaps have hit a wall, but initially it's helped me uncover and deal with some things along the way. I hadn't read about PSIP, but did find a group in the Netherlands that was using MDMA as a means to go deeper into things instead of just psilocybin. The author from the institute (?) had written about the effects on psilocybin and dissociation and how MDMA is a much better way of bypassing dissociation. It is only a short trip over the channel for me and have thought about doing it.

What also stood out to me from your journals was how you describe not being heard and the need to describe things in a perfect, or crystal clear manner so that you're understood. I feel like I also struggle with this to some degree and waonder about it's connection to developmental trauma. For me, I have a feeling/idea that when I talk about things, I'll destroy them. It also sometimes takes me a very long time if asked a question to formulate what I want to say (as a way of perehaps being understood and not being talked over etc). It's interesting that in NARM when discussing the connection survival strategy, they talk about the right to exist and how at that young age, the child needs the caregiver to mimic them, or to kind of "give voice" to the things that are going on inside of them. At least this is how I understand it. However, for me growing up in an NPD household, my m didn't have space for my needs and I think that process was warped.

This are just my thoughts and connections and it's interesting if that is also the root of your experience as well, but please disregard if it doesn't fit.

Sending you support,
dolly

rainydiary
Thank you for your support!

Dalloway
Wow. The whole thread. I'm honored. Thank you. I'm so happy to hear it made you feel really connected and at peace! The feeling is mutual Dalloway. I'm so happy to meet you and others here. It touches my heart to interact with you. OOTS is such a beautiful place. It's rare to find a place where people connect from such vulnerability and are so supportive of each other. Thank you for being here.

Chart
I'm happy to hear it didn't stop you from getting value out of the talk. Please do share about those correlations if you feel comfortable to do so. A lot came together in discovering PSIP for me too. I think the most important thing Saj said in the talk is that it's not about the medicine. It's us. We are the magic. In the end, it's all about connection, about love. Complex trauma developed in it's absence, and crumbles in it's presence. Love is the medicine. My T is in Poland.

dollyvee
Gosh, you read it all too!? Thank you so much for that and for sharing your thoughts and experiences. This forum sure helps to relieve isolation. And it further erodes the obstacles for connection IRL.

It's great microdosing helped you to uncover and deal with some things. From my own experience with it, and with "mini dosing" I'd say the therapeutic potential is there, but also has it's limitations. Especially in isolation. I understand you were/are looking for ways to go beyond that. I'm ALL EARS with regards to the group and the info you found about the use of MDMA. I understand why you'd consider hopping over for something like this. If I would have known, I think I would have joined that group somewhere in the past two years. Just before I found my PSIP T, I was considering to ask if an aya facilitator I met during a ceremony would be up for a PSIP type session with me. It's crazy the therapeutic use of these compounds is still not incorporated into the health care system and people like us have to resort to the gray area. But health is not a luxury, so whatever it takes!

The need to explain myself clearly is absolutely connected to developmental trauma. Thanks so much for sharing your insights. For me it needs to be so clear so the chance of being dismissed is the smallest. This is what I've come to expect and fear every time I have something to say. So in essence, I'm still reacting to my M. Would you say you feel like you only have one chance and you better hit the mark because you won't be permitted another? Or rather, you don't feel you have that one chance to begin with? Would you say your truth remains intact as long as you don't articulate it, and when you do it can be destroyed by not being received? So expressing yourself feels like it equals the destruction of (a part of) you, because that would happen to you as a kid? I'm risking derailing the conversation, but I wonder to what degree introversion can be an adaptation to an unsafe social environment. In the sense that it may be a fawn response woven into ones personality at the time it developed in interaction with the environment.

If I'm not mistaken it was Beverly Engel who talked about caregivers as mirrors in which a child sees who she/he is. They need to hear and see you and communicate that what they hear and see is worthy and lovable. Whatever we get as feedback in our formative years, we absorb as part of who we are. I think what you said about the NARM connection survival strategy relates to this. How does a helpless child develop when it's met with rejection or when it's not met at all? I'm sorry your M didn't have space for your needs and this vital process got warped. I can relate.

Being treated like this from a young age does tell you that you don't have the right to exist indeed. I suspect implicit messages land even deeper than explicit messages, because the violence in it can be hard to detect. In fact, this is an important reason why I'm having trouble stating outright that I suffer from cPTSD or developmental trauma and not fearing it'll be dismissed or worse. I have not so much to point to in terms of "classic" traumatic experiences. A few of these little "t" incidents don't get you there, but growing up in such an environment does. It's complicated for me, because I do see narcissistic traits in my M, but it was mixed with genuine love and care. My F who had more outright NPD issues nowhere near affected me as much as my M did. The clarity of him not caring about me was so obvious there was some peace in that, if that makes sense.

Thanks for your support dollyvee. I appreciate having this conversation.

Thank you for letting me have this conversation with you in your journal. It also feels helpful to me to explore this.

I went back to the bookmark as I read it a couple of years ago and had to laugh because it's the same person that you've quoted:

https://www.psychedelicsomatic.org/post/why-mdma-psychedelic-therapy-may-not-work-for-you
https://www.psychedelicsomatic.org/post/psilocybin-mushroom-therapy-part-2

In the second link, he talks about the psliocybin centre in Amsterdam, which is what has stuck in my head.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 01, 2024, 02:08:56 PMWould you say your truth remains intact as long as you don't articulate it, and when you do it can be destroyed by not being received? So expressing yourself feels like it equals the destruction of (a part of) you, because that would happen to you as a kid?

I think you've very much hit the nail on the head here. Through dreams, IFS etc, I often feel like there are parts that can remain "in tact" as long as they're separate from other people. So, as you suggested there is very much a polite social part that seeks "connection," but underneath I think the message is that connection to my "authentic self" is actaully very painful, or not something I want to do. I've seen this in IFS as two parts where there's one that kind of takes care of the day to day while the other one can do the things it wants to do. This very much feels like social interactions as well. However, I think it's perhaps more subconscious ie parts of me want to believe in the "fantasy," or the have attachment limerance and that which I did not have growing up, but it's not actual connection. So, in a way I still remain isolated. I also feel a lot that other people just put their "stuff" on me. The saying of don't shine too brightly rings true, and when I do, I find myself dealing with other peoples' ego states (IMO, whether it's projection or not, let's see).

I was also the (self-diagnosed) truth teller in my family, where I did have other peoples' "realities" put on my to be accepted as truth, but often stood up for what I believed, which was met with consequences. One thing about hiding the authentic Self that's helped my understanding of the above is John Bradshaw's, Healing the Shame That Binds You where shame is a core wound that impairs authentic connection. I do have some difficulty linking, or connecting it to the preverbal part of me as I think shame at that age often feels like annihilation (exploring this might be helpful with psychedelics).

I'm trying to find the reference to what I wrote about and can't remember if it came from Healing Developmental Trauma, or The Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma, but you are perhaps correct that the original idea came from Beverly Engel. What I think is perhaps different about NARM is that it strives to incorporate somatic awareness into the mindful awareness of attachment theory and development. So, in my experience, it has been about stopping and being mindful of my own internal world during sessions, which never had a chance to properly develop, and then reflect on that if that makes sense. This is where the experience of not naming, having words for, feeling defensive when things are named for me comes from and what I have been noticing/exploring with my t.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 01, 2024, 02:08:56 PMI have not so much to point to in terms of "classic" traumatic experiences. A few of these little "t" incidents don't get you there, but growing up in such an environment does. It's complicated for me, because I do see narcissistic traits in my M, but it was mixed with genuine love and care. My F who had more outright NPD issues nowhere near affected me as much as my M did. The clarity of him not caring about me was so obvious there was some peace in that, if that makes sense.

Ah yes, the very familiar to a lot of us on here I think adage that nothing that bad happened to me. I'm not sure how much you've looked into covert narcissism? I used to think my gm loved and cared about me very much because that's what I was told and had to believe for survival. However, the reality is closer to that I was something that made her feel better about herself, and what I actually needed, thought etc was quickly shut down as it showed too much independence. Essentially, she didn't have any space, or ability to cope with that. Again, it sort of links back to language and me talking about my truth (reality) will destroy it.

Some excerpts from Healing Developmental Trauma that might relate:
When there is early trauma, the older dorsal vagal defensive strategies of immobilization dominate, leading to freeze, collapse, and ultimately to dissociation. As a result, the ventral vagus fails to adequately develop and social development is impaired. Consequently, traumatized infants favor freeze and withdrawal over social engagement as a way of managing states of arousal. This pattern has lifelong implications.

Early trauma compromises their sense of safety, their right to exist and be in the world, and their capacity for connection. Therefore, they do not learn what it feels like to have a sense of self, to be connected to their body, and they are left frightened of intimate connection.

Having experienced prenatal trauma, the nervous system of an individual with the
Connection Survival Style develops around a core contraction/withdrawal and freeze/paralysis response. The fetus, as is seen clearly in videos taken in utero, goes into physiological contraction and withdrawal when it experiences stress or threat.

Infants need loving parents in order to learn to regulate the various forms of arousal their vulnerable nervous system experiences. A mother must be able to respond to and match her infant's positive emotions and join in the joy and excitement of their shared play. It is through these attuned interactions that children develop secure attachments and acquire the resources and autonomic resiliency that lead to a capacity to live life fully.

NARM attempts to bridge this gap by grounding Attachment Theory in bodily experience and working with the mindful awareness of adaptive survival styles.

Also, as I was of going back over the chapter on Healing Developmental Trauma quickly this stood out when reading about the precursors to the connection survival strategy:

"In infants, states of threat and distress are expressed through crying and screaming, reflecting sympathetic hyper-arousal that is accompanied by elevated levels of stress hormones."

I wonder if perhaps the first experience of language (crying/screaming) was shut down, and it was learned that to talk about it will destroy it? Of course, for me, this reality was recreated over and over by having my own truth shut down, but I wonder about the origins of that thought? I was just going to write, perhaps I was punished for crying and had a memory pop up about being spanked for crying, with the thought, I'll give you something to cry about. Of course, this is my own experience, and I'm sure yours might vary.

dollyvee
Great! Thank you! All roads lead to Saj, lol. It's both wonderful and painful to read the articles (and to go over other PSIP material). I'm so happy Saj has connected the dots and found a bottom up approach to erode dissociation gently and rather fast. I'm tempted to call the selective inhibition part guided mindfulness on psychedelics. So many therapists I worked with assumed you can will yourself to access difficult material. One outright blamed me for "not getting there". Those endless encounters have been incredibly painful, lonely and even re-traumatizing. I hope you had better luck finding qualified help. It sounds like you have. If I may ask, have you been able to go where you needed to go with NARM/IFS/other modalities? Or is there a point which they can't take you beyond, that you feel needs visiting?

I never linked PSIP to the Psychedelic Society, but I knew there were trainings over here somewhere. I reached out to the PSI two years ago and they couldn't help me. I think those sessions in Amsterdam were only for therapists in training.

What you describe about connection as such being so painful sounds utterly lonely. Social interactions aren't quite connection if it's not possible to be really present, is it? I know what that's like. It can feel more lonely than being physically alone. And I relate to the difficulty of having to deal with other people's ego states. I acknowledge that there can be projection involved, but people dumping their stuff on others is very common, unfortunately. It's more difficult to deal with when boundaries have been violated so profoundly in your FOO. Since cPTSD folks are prone to seek fault in themselves, I'd say it's probably helpful to assume it's the other way around when in doubt.

It's been a while since I looked into NARM, so forgive me if I'm missing the mark. It sounds sophisticated, hyper-mindful. Would you say this approach is helping you to form your own internal world, so to say? Or perhaps making it more robust by holding it in a space of great attention and acceptance, and validating how you felt with that in relation to the environment you grew up in? That would be a beautiful and also painful process, I imagine. Writing this, I realize that I've been doing something like this for many years in isolation. I couldn't in connection. Mostly not. If I was a tiny fire in a storm, I have been guarding it from the wind and taking great care to add extra twigs carefully, so it won't extinguish but grow. It seems to me your flame has also been bordering on being extinguished, but you've found a way to rekindle your fire. That's great!

Your point about shame and annihilation is spot on. After reading Bradshaw's book, I dove into interpersonal neurobiology and found those two meeting in Patricia DeYoung's book. Her definition of shame: "Shame is an experience of one's felt sense of self disintegrating in relation to a dysregulating other." In this context, shame is an "attempt" to not exist in order to survive. It's an existential paradox, in the middle of the split of authenticity and inauthenticity. The developing self is faced with the threat of annihilation, and the only way to escape that is to not be, and to present something else, which won't be annihilated. At the heart of it, authenticity has come to mean death. And connection without authenticity is not possible. I feel this play out in most social interactions. The charge around it can be through the roof. I've developed around hiding what's going on inside me. Including this pressure cooker, which turns up the fire even more.

Over time, and exponentially more so after some high dose psychedelic interventions, opening up around friends has become much more natural. The default really changed. Also on a visceral level. The protection mechanism of shame runs deep though. It shows up in many interactions and this is the realm I feel I need to explore (with PSIP). Feeling the terror of annihilation while committing to connection with someone who can be trusted is where there's big healing potential, I think. What my system needs is experiences proving it's fundamental predictions about itself and the world around it wrong. It will continue to project this early life terror onto situations until there have been experiences in that vulnerable state with a different outcome. This is my beef with many modalities, which never could help me inhibit my (involuntary) defenses and land me in an age regressed state. Psychedelics could. When that first hurdle isn't taken, it doesn't land in a deep place, in my experience. So therapy remained basically bla bla for me.

I don't actually know to what extent my issues have preverbal roots, do you? I have a strong suspicion based on hints from inside and literature, that's pretty much it. My M's personality was most likely not any different before I learned language. In a way you could derive the impact of your caregiver on your preverbal development from the personality you later got to understand. I remember being obsessed by Allan Schore and what he had to say about the first 1000 days of development (including in utero), but I must confess that I forgot most of it. I do believe that a fetus is influenced by the emotional state of it's mother. This would also make sense in the light of evolution and epigenetics.

Learning to regulate our nervous system in later life is a very big part of the challenge, I think. I've found a meditation practice to be helpful, but I clearly remain vulnerable to overwhelming stress responses. What I've come to see as also an important challenge, is to connect when this is happening. Connecting is not only a goal, but also a tool, which made that a sort of check mate for the majority of my life. Co-regulation is a bit of an alien concept in therapy land, but I think this is more natural and in line with our biology than our hyper individualized culture suggests.

Yes my M was of the covert variety. She did a lot of damage, primarily below my radar. I have allowed myself to go all the way with feeling resentment and hate, which I think was very healing for me. The full picture just isn't black and white. I would almost invalidate my experience of the confusing ambivalence I grew up with by reducing my M to an evil narc of sorts. I once described her as genuinely caring and relentless. Both come from my own experience and acknowledging however it was, is important to me. I'm aware that I don't know what I don't know, so my view may change if I become aware of blind spots. I'm not happy with the paradigm of personality disorders anyway. It may have it's use, but what has helped me more is to see that both my parents were emotionally immature and needy and how that affected my trajectory.

I understand the following is a delicate subject in a space where people gather who have been treated so badly. Perhaps it's a bit too much for this forum, but after working through a lot, I eventually could see my parents as two human beings who perpetuated suffering because they were largely unaware of their shadow. They were/are very human. Letting go of a victim identity is deeply healing and this perspective has been helpful for me in that regard. I find myself going in and out. A huge part of my bitterness and resentment has gone since my aya experiences and that is awesome. From time to time some more shows up. That's alright. It ain't over until it's over.

OK, this is a long entry. I'll better round it up. Thank you for the links, the excellent excavations from the NARM literature, and your input overall. :thumbup:  :grouphug:

Chart
In case you read this, I thought about you when watching another PSIP vid. Saj mentioned the difference between humans and (other ;D ) animals with regards to dissociation at around one hour and 7-9 minutes into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nn_qyBxlKw

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMOne outright blamed me for "not getting there". Those endless encounters have been incredibly painful, lonely and even re-traumatizing. I hope you had better luck finding qualified help. It sounds like you have. If I may ask, have you been able to go where you needed to go with NARM/IFS/other modalities? Or is there a point which they can't take you beyond, that you feel needs visiting?

I'm sorry you had experiences like that and it's understandable that they can be retraumatizing. I'm very careful about who I open myself up to and for those with connection survival strategy, I think being able to trust someone is inherently difficult.

IFS was the first "thing" that allowed me to access what was going on inside, and a mainline to "stuff" if that makes sense. It sort of showed me things that were going on, which made sense, but also took me quite a while to figure/sort out, and articulate what I saw. However, it was seeing something real that related to my experience, and wasn't like trying on an idea of what I think something should be like, or feel like etc if that makes sense. However, I think the difficulty I have with doing IFS on my own, or perhaps in general, is a disorganized sense of Self energy. At times I wonder if I am in Self or a Self like part. Joanne Twombly in Trauma and Dissociation Informed IFS states that for a lot of children it wasn't safe to be in Self and can be difficult to access.

NARM states that a lot of people with the connecion survival strategy aren't in their bodies and are either intellectualizing or spiritualizing (my word) their experiences. It's much safer to connect to those "realms" than be in the body. I think this is true for me and my experience with talk therapy. I was with my EMDR/talk therapist for about 7 years and I can reflect on/intellectualize etc till the cows come home, but it's not connecting to what's going on underneath. With NARM, it has a way of reorienting you, even when you're talking, to come out of the intellectualizing bit and into a different experience and see things that I had no idea I was doing, or feeling. For example, the lengths I will go to avoid conflict, or that a core need/experience is to be believed/feeling like I'm not going to be believed. My t also validates things that other ts have had issues with in the past. For example, the vibes I pick up from other people. There's also the points at which things get difficult as well, which is the resistance to connection and not wanting to be around people. If you're interested, there's a transcript of a NARM session in Healing Developmental Trauma, which shows how a session works, and I think is pretty fascinating.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMWould you say this approach is helping you to form your own internal world, so to say? Or perhaps making it more robust by holding it in a space of great attention and acceptance, and validating how you felt with that in relation to the environment you grew up in? That would be a beautiful and also painful process, I imagine. Writing this, I realize that I've been doing something like this for many years in isolation. I couldn't in connection. Mostly not. If I was a tiny fire in a storm, I have been guarding it from the wind and taking great care to add extra twigs carefully, so it won't extinguish but grow. It seems to me your flame has also been bordering on being extinguished, but you've found a way to rekindle your fire. That's great!

Definitely. One of the main concepts behind NARM is to build a sense of agency for the client and to validate their internal experiences. I think it's great that you've been going through that. However, to me, there is the difference between doing it on your own and with someone else. This is the hurdle I think that NARM tries to overcome. So, a way for the fire to be rekindled in the presence if other people, which is something that I didn't experience growing up, or perhaps you either. What also drew me to NARM is that he discusses how the body will sometimes short circuit connection when it feels like trust for example, has been breached. So, intellectually we can understand that someone made a mistake, and it isn't about us, but our bodies don't experience it as "safe." In the transcript I mentioned, the therapist goes through this process and is something that I found quite powerful to read.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMYour point about shame and annihilation is spot on. After reading Bradshaw's book, I dove into interpersonal neurobiology and found those two meeting in Patricia DeYoung's book. Her definition of shame: "Shame is an experience of one's felt sense of self disintegrating in relation to a dysregulating other." In this context, shame is an "attempt" to not exist in order to survive.

This is interesting. I will have to look up her work! This also hits the nail on the head again for me. At times I feel being around people for me there is a deep sense of just not wanting to exist. It's so interesting that this is shame. I feel the same thing I think, that I must hid this feeling of not wanting to exist (?). I think that's the right way to describe it; I don't think it's feeling like I'm not good enough, but rather just wanting to delete myself, which is perhaps what you're saying.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMOver time, and exponentially more so after some high dose psychedelic interventions, opening up around friends has become much more natural. The default really changed. Also on a visceral level. The protection mechanism of shame runs deep though. It shows up in many interactions and this is the realm I feel I need to explore (with PSIP). Feeling the terror of annihilation while committing to connection with someone who can be trusted is where there's big healing potential, I think. What my system needs is experiences proving it's fundamental predictions about itself and the world around it wrong. It will continue to project this early life terror onto situations until there have been experiences in that vulnerable state with a different outcome. This is my beef with many modalities, which never could help me inhibit my (involuntary) defenses and land me in an age regressed state. Psychedelics could. When that first hurdle isn't taken, it doesn't land in a deep place, in my experience. So therapy remained basically bla bla for me.

It's interesting if NARM would be able to do this and is another avenue without psychedelics?

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMI don't actually know to what extent my issues have preverbal roots, do you? I have a strong suspicion based on hints from inside and literature, that's pretty much it. My M's personality was most likely not any different before I learned language. In a way you could derive the impact of your caregiver on your preverbal development from the personality you later got to understand. I remember being obsessed by Allan Schore and what he had to say about the first 1000 days of development (including in utero), but I must confess that I forgot most of it. I do believe that a fetus is influenced by the emotional state of it's mother. This would also make sense in the light of evolution and epigenetics.

I see it in light of epigenetics as well to a degree but also think that my mother's emotional state at the time (and her unNPD behaviour) is a large factor in my preverbal trauma, though it's not like I have any explicit memory of that, which is normal. Again, in my family I think her emotional state was the result of generational trauma and epigenetics to a degree.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on December 03, 2024, 03:05:11 PMI understand the following is a delicate subject in a space where people gather who have been treated so badly. Perhaps it's a bit too much for this forum, but after working through a lot, I eventually could see my parents as two human beings who perpetuated suffering because they were largely unaware of their shadow. They were/are very human. Letting go of a victim identity is deeply healing and this perspective has been helpful for me in that regard. I find myself going in and out. A huge part of my bitterness and resentment has gone since my aya experiences and that is awesome. From time to time some more shows up. That's alright. It ain't over until it's over.

Yes, I have a similar feeling that a lot of people get stuck in their "pain bodies" as Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche puts it, and sometimes it's as if that pain becomes our identity. Like you, I came to a sort of epiphany that it was my m's time on earth to do the things that she needed to do. However, like in a NARM sense, I think this is a great concept intellectually, I don't think it perhaps breaks into the felt sense, or bodily experience of what she did, or what happened, and some part of me is still living with that. I hope you're able to find some space to deal with things as they come up for you.

I'm glad the NARM links were helpful. Perhaps it's not the be all, end all, but is something that has been helpful for me. I feel like the parts are starting to fit together between connection, and the difficulty I have expressing myself (or not wanting to and keeping myself seperate), even if it is difficult at times. So, thank you for letting me share here.

dollyvee
Thank you for sharing. I've been rather overwhelmed lately. I'll reply at a later moment.
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I've been dysregulated lately. It happens quite easily when I have to deal with too many things in a short period of time. This goes back ages. My resilience just isn't what it used to be.

I got the medical tests done that are part of the screening for PSIP. I also passed the screening with the shrink. That all happened incredibly fast. That's a positive surprise.

It was a difficult match with the intensified sleep disorder that's been going like this for months now though. It drains the life out of me. I plow trough on willpower. I crank myself up, do the thing, and sink back into my chair for most of the day. Been there and done that for so many years. I just didn't expect my sleep to get so bad again though. A distinct feeling I get in my arms has returned. A mystery thing which had been gone for quite a while. Last night I had nightmares all night.

Today I did my run and found myself having to walk a couple of times because I just didn't have the juice. This rarely ever happens. Not a good sign. I already quit fitness for the time being and stuck to running every other day. I'm in trouble emotionally if I don't exercise. This is close to the minimum dose. I might add in the fitness again. Sometimes it helps to get out of a groove of some sorts. We'll see if I'm up for the experiment.

I'll see my shrink in a couple of days. Perhaps it's time to discuss a round of benzo's for sleep. I still have a bunch that are a couple of years past the expiration date. This indicates my relationship with the stuff. I'm the type that probably waits far too long with taking them.

I'm tired of running the marathon at night.

I read what you wrote and resonate with many things you shared.  I hope that you find what supports you.

Sending you support SO

rainydiary and dollyvee
Thank you both for your support.
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I did take benzo's for two nights. Sleep quality wasn't good, but better than terrible is an improvement at the moment. It enabled me to do some proper fitness again. That felt good. It's clear I'm not out of the groove my system got stuck in months ago. A bit of a top down intervention might help here. It has before. Taking a benzo no more than three times per week should be okay, according to my shrink who I'll see tomorrow. My main goal with this is to get my exercise routine back on track. It's starting to really annoy me that the latest bout of whatever it is hits so long. That anger is going to be my fuel. There's a place for surrender to what is and there's a place for fighting. I'm actually doing both on different levels simultaniously, but that's another story.

Today I heard I got through all the PSIP screening. I'm in! I got an offer to do two sessions, starting a week from now. The pressure to arrange everything in such a short time got me really dysregulated. I thought about it for a bit and decided it was not a good idea to rush into it like this. I need some time to arrange the logistics, stuff to take, and acclimatize before I can do a session. I do not want to start off any more stressed than necessary. I want to ease into this. With a non medicine session first, just like my therapist suggested. So I suggested January. The fact that I fear a negative response (who do you think you are, bla bla bla...) is exemplary of what I'm aiming to address. Interesting. I did resist a fawn response by communicating my preference, which is a win. I've waited for two years, so a few more weeks is no big deal.

It would be great if my sleep starts to cooperate a bit before I jump into this. It's enough of a challenge as it is. There's only so much I can do and I'm going for this anyway.

Hi SenseOrgan,
I hope your sleep improves.  I'm glad you enjoyed your fitness session - that sounds good.
Hope

Hope67
Thank you!  :hug:

dollyvee
Thank you for expressing yourself! I think I'm starting to better understand what you're dealing with. I can see that "disorganized Self energy" makes it hard to connect with another person. And that it's a complicating factor in therapy. Seeing something real that related to your experience instead of trying on an idea with IFS must have been a relief, I recon. So not coming from what is expected, presumed, or wanted, but connecting with what is real for you in the present. It's all just story as long as there is no felt connection with it. Dissociation doesn't allow that, does it? A sense of safety is key to relax that, I think.

It's great NARM has taken you further. I can see how your T's validating of your experiences can help to validate and honor them yourself, so to say. Much like what a good enough parent does for a child. The intellect is often the dissociating route. It takes a therapist who does not operate on that level herself to spot it and "block the escape" in you. Over here, they are hard to find when you can't afford anything else but what's covered by insurance.

You're absolutely right that there's a limit to how far we can get on our own. There is no substitute for relating to another person. The fire needs to be rekindled in the presence of other people in order to continue the path out of trauma. Nicely put! Survival operates below the level of the intellect. The autonomic nervous system (ANS) keeps us safe, regardless of how rational or desired we think that may be. The sense of safety needs to land on that level, which is notoriously hard to achieve. One way of putting it is that we're stuck with faulty neuroception, and we're looking for ways to give the ANS the message certain situations/sensations are not associated with danger. In the case of connection with others, I'd like to turn that around 180 degrees. I'm curious to see how this is approached in NARM. I've found the chapter in the book you referred to, but haven't had the time to read it yet. Thank you!

I like to think that relating connection to safety on a deep level becomes less difficult after a certain amount of corrective experiences in a therapeutic setting. With or without the aid of psychoactive substances. Over time, daily life preferably takes over the therapy room as the arena where post-traumatic growth happens. For me this is also where the identity of a victim, or a patient, shifts into something much more expansive and empowering. It makes a big difference if life happens to you or for you. I go back and forth between this contraction and expansion.

TW/spirituality
The pain body is a very useful concept in this regard. I prefer to call it reactivity though. Reactivity is resisting life as it is. A no to our experience. This way we create suffering on top of pain. That's all nice and dandy on a certain level, but this not wanting to be here is very deep programming (ultimately the illusion of separation itself). Resistance happens on a subconscious level too.

My failure to find an answer to intense suffering has morphed into something completely different. When the suffering reached a critical mass, the one who could no longer bare the pain started to crack and surrender. In hindsight, it was the start of a profound shift in my sense of self and the nature of reality. I can no longer see my pain solely as something to get rid of asap, or the thing which destroyed my life and ruined everything. This trauma has always carried the seed of seeing through the illusion of suffering, permanence, and self. I had a glimpse, and never was the same. Although I'm identified, a spell of sorts has been broken. It would never have without this trauma.

Even though it took me two hours to get out of bed, I had a good day. A big contrast with the depressive day I had yesterday. No dragging my corpse around today. I posted a card for a friend who has her birthday in a few days. The normal physical heaviness which also informs my thinking wasn't there. I just went and got it done. Then spontaneously hopped into a shop for some pastry, which I never do. I don't do sugar, pretty much ever. I just felt like it.

The doorbell rang. This rarely happens. I was busy, but okay. Two salesmen. Internet, cable. The kind with a FU attitude, only interested in what they can get out of this. I half opened the door, saw the logo on their jackets and said: "ah, ziggo, no interest", and started to close the door. They opened up their reservoir of tricks. I continued the motion of closing the door without a word. "Can I ask you about something else, sir?". Klick. Door closed. One of the punks started to repeatedly shout "I need to pee, I need to pee". To impress his mate, I guess. It felt really good to be so resolute and not play by nice rules with people who do not play by them themselves. It reminded me that I'm in charge of how I respond to whom, and that I don't have to go along with bs people shove in my face unsolicited and not with my interest in mind. I don't have to account for my behavior just because of an internal program saying I'm inherently bad. I can just act in my own interest, set a boundary and go about my day. Thanks for the opportunity guys! I've done something like this before, but with a bit more of the normal chit chat, stress, and guilt. This was better. I noticed a hint of guilt arise, but I didn't agree with it and it dissolved. Nice!

I was able to do some work in the garden I'd been wanting to do for a couple of weeks. I also managed to pulverize a personal fitness record. All I did was take half a benzo before going to bed. Two more of these to go this week. Sleep determines everything. Yesterday I barely dared to go out of the house because I was so ashamed.

Hi SO,

I'm glad you routine has returned to a somewhat normal. I'm quite busy with work at the moment to have a proper think and reply, but one of the ways NARM deals with the ANS is through a type of touch. I also believe that it's dealt with through creating an inner sense of agency. The example NARM session chapter deals with this quite a bit. I can find it for reference, but sounds like you have found it on your own!

Sending you support,
dolly

Thanks dollyvee. No worries. Thanks for dropping by.
It's chapter 9 in Healing Developmental Trauma, and chapter 10 & 11 in The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma through a more clinical lens, it seems.
Good luck with work!

"The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe."
― Albert Einstein

This popped into my mind recently. I don't know the context in which he said this. It just strikes me how much this aligns with attachment trauma. Except in that case that decision is programmed with/as the the sense of self, rather than chosen by it. The "choice" however, goes on to color life. This basic conviction is projected onto everything. On the surface I don't even agree with the belief the universe is hostile, but this doesn't affect my most basic programming.

It was all night terrors this night. Constantly waking up. I had great insights from them, which I have mostly already forgotten. Among others, it was about attachment and not being able to truly trust. Not peoples intentions, but their ability to attune and understand. Being parented by a mother who could not, installed an existential loneliness in me. The smallest hint of misattunement triggers this. Misattunement being a normal part of interacting, makes connection often more lonely than being alone. This makes my world very small, whatever I choose.

These unfulfilled early developmental needs exist in me as an open nerve. It is the lens through which I experience the world as a cold and barren place. Every time I'm reminded in an interaction and when I'm alone.

I can't compensate for this, ignore it, live around it, transcend it, live with it. I used to be able to fool myself, but a lot of that has collapsed. There is very little in the world that appeals to me. There's nothing out there that can fill the hole in my soul, so to say. I realize this sounds awfully bleak. It is and it isn't. First off, things are how they are with or without my permission. I am not in charge of what lands on my plate on a moment by moment basis.

My focus has shifted from trying to manipulate life into something bearable, to relating differently to what is. There is immense freedom in this. Except when I'm overwhelmed by something so painful, I fight with reality. I keep finding myself exploring this. Over the years this intuition has guided me into what I suspect are some of the deepest layers of my psyche. It is very raw and practically not manageable when I end up there. And still I feel I need to go there if I want to have any chance of a higher quality of life. I believe this guidance is part of my own innate healing capacity. It has prompted me to let somebody in again and "go there" with their support. It's rare I really let somebody in. Being open to that is a good sign. I am more open to this than ever and more vulnerable at the same time. It's been like this for years already. I just couldn't find anyone I wanted to work with. This is indicative of what I carry with me. I have found a person and a modality I trust are a match. We will start the second week of 2025.

How I relate to what is within me determines how I relate to others. The more I can allow what is within, the more open I become for the world around me. I know what it's like to be present in interaction with other people. I know I have it in me and this is where I want to go.

It looks like the EF I was in is fading. It's too early to cheer, but it feels like it. The past couple of days and nights were horrible. I felt like I was dying of loneliness and there was nothing I could do to turn the tide. It was very hard to fall asleep with this overwhelming despair. I used an extra pillow to press tightly against my body. It did little, but at least something. I kept focusing on my physical sensations and blocking thought trains as best I could. When sleeping it was nothing but nightmares and constantly waking up sweaty. I don't even remember the last time this happened with this intensity and so many nights in a row.

Social anxiety also returned, making it a good old challenge to get groceries. I was even afraid to post anything here, fearing some sort of punishment or rejection. It's crazy how thorough this blast from the past takes over my entire being. And I don't think I'm ever more than vaguely convinced I'm having an EF while I'm in the midst of it. It basically becomes the reality I experience, period. The world, and especially people just become so incredibly unsafe I feel check mated.

Last night was similar, except the intensity was dialed down just a pinch. I honestly don't understand how I'm still alive when I think about the activity that goes on at night and that this madness has been going on for 30 years at least. I'm at risk for all sorts of things by that alone.

It was very tempting to stay inside again today, making it another hopeless day in front of the computer. It's cold and wet outside. When I forced myself to put on my running clothes and go for my usual run, I soon discovered it went quite alright and felt rather good. I don't get this, but I'll take it. It's a few hours later now and I still feel energized and I'm in good spirits. Yesterday I started doing pull-ups, but I had to give up after just a couple. I was just destroyed by a relentless mode I had gotten into lately.

A physical intervention has often helped me to stay afloat. The same goes for the routine of it. It's a double blow when I simply don't have the strength or the energy to do anything in that regard. It stresses helplessness and hopelessness.

Because I've been highly stressed, I decided to not add any extra so I stopped taking cold showers. A week or two ago I guess. I think I definitively did the right thing there, but I suspect it comes at a price too. Those showers are very much anti helplessness and hopelessness and probably a whole lot more goes on there. I get a lot out of them, even though they are very unpleasant.

Things can go downhill fast when sleep disables the already fragile pillars on which I stand. It's a puzzle which just doesn't always fit. Right now I feel good and I don't know where that came from. Being highly pragmatic, I wonder how to best use this mode to my advantage. Can I create more leverage right now? I'll start with doing the dishes. That usually is a counter helplessness and hopelessness action I don't get done when in bad shape.

Thank you SenseOrgan, I'm finding these PSIP videos very very intense and stimulating. I'm moving along similar lines, parallel, but without any assistance of medicines. I want to go deeper and am discussing this with my therapist... but anyway, all that's me...

I wanted to observe that (I think) humans are the only animals that experience chronique developmental trauma. I'm trying to find situations contrary to this idea, but so far haven't been able to imagine or find examples where animals are deprived of secure attachment or systematically traumatized. Perhaps this exists, but it must be extremely rare, especially coming from primary care-givers. Or, perhaps, animals exposed to this sort of treatment simply don't survive. For most of homo sapiens' history, infant mortality was so high and only something technology has recently turned around... Was this partly due to trauma as well as disease? I think it highly likely. Although, "primitive" societies and cultures seem to be much more naturally capable of providing secure attachement. So the trauma distinction seems to me to become important. Developmental trauma is not the same as being jumped by a lion in the grass no matter what age you are... (There's an annoying guy on YouTube that talks about "Big T" and "little t", but it is an important distinction to make I think...)

So I think what I find intriguing is the link between evolutionary nervous system complexity and developmental trauma. Obviously Cptsd symptoms simply cannot manifest in animals to the degree it has in humans.

Now the claim that we nonetheless have inherent systems to overcome and heal from trauma becomes important because effectively our systems to heal also come from an evolutionary chain of events. I'm wondering about healing from different forms of trauma. Does our ANS "really" know how to heal from attachment trauma? Or is it similar enough to classic survival trauma that it doesn't matter so much?

I guess we'll find out :) This is definitely the direction I am moving and again infinite thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences. Sending support!!!
:hug:

I wanted to add all my best wishes for your starting PSIP therapy in January. I'm so very happy for you that you are coming to a concrete action after all these years of searching. Sending much love and tons of hugs!
 :hug:

Thanks a bunch for your support Chart! And merry Christmas! Do you have a place here on the forum where you regularly post about your progress? Behind the privacy wall perhaps? Thus far I haven't been able to find it, and I'd like to follow your steps and thinking.

I think the value of the PSIP model for addressing developmental trauma (DT) is more in the relational aspect than it is in the somatic. The trauma in DT is relational in origin and needs a relational solution. Getting it on board in the everyday secondary consciousness most modalities operate in, never worked for me. My ANS does not allow that type of vulnerability in relation to another human being. It's another matter when in primary consciousness, where I don't have access to my usual defenses and am more vulnerable by default. The psychedelic in combination with the process of selective inhibition of defense mechanisms, functions as a pathway to this vulnerability. With it, the traumatic material in the system becomes progressively more accessible. When the continuous, largely unconscious, effort to keep the traumatic material from entering consciousness is loosened this way, it can be processed. Since it's trauma and not some sort of minor discomfort, this does involve hyperarousal. Increased heart rate, sweating, shaking, involuntary movements, just to name a few. I don't think there's a fundamental difference between the processing of one type of trauma over another. Our system has a limited amount of options for it.

I have used the distinction between little t and big T trauma myself and I regret doing that. Little t trauma is a bit of an oxymoron. Gabor Maté has pointed out somewhere that it does not exist. When intensely stressful experiences overwhelm our coping capacity, and we can't escape the situation, it doesn't do it justice to refer to it as little t trauma. We may be inclined to do so if we project our adult mind onto that of the child and conclude it was not a matter of life and death. Especially in the case of very young children, the bond with the primary caregiver(s) is all that stands between them and death. The impact of the threat of losing it, or it being the source of danger even, while being utterly helpless, is hard to overestimate, I think. Let alone when it occurs chronically. When an infant is left alone in his crib all day for instance, I bet his ANS runs through a distinct activation pattern when his increasing despair continues to not be answered. His terror must be unimaginable.

DT and PTSD are not the same off course. DT is woven into the fabric of the person. Addressing it also involves a shift in identity and how we relate to others. I think those types of changes are pretty much impossible to achieve if our ANS responses aren't altered first. In my experience it hasn't been possible to change anything at the level of the ANS with altering behavior or cognition. It did not trickle down to the system charged with the most basic task of keeping me alive. It's because my ANS still operates with the programming that relating equals danger. This is what lives in my primary consciousness, that 90% of the iceberg under water obscured from every day secondary consciousness.

It's hopeful to me that it's possible to relate to others in primary consciousness. This makes it possible to generate experiences which contradict the existing basic programming about safety and connection. This changes the game. PSIP therapists insist on relating and expressing the experience you're having. There is no room for withdrawing inside and what is expressed and communicated is welcome. Even negative transference. Being allowed even that, without losing the connection, is profoundly healing for a regressed person expecting rejection. It takes a lot to go there from both parties, which makes it a rare opportunity.

We are social animals. Even those with severe DT. We all have a drive towards connection and belonging. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Our biology is still adapted to survival in connection, not in isolation. What we need is ways to lower the obstacles for it that have been internalized. Those obstacles are woven into our sense of identity in the case of DT. The undoing of aloneness at our core is the big axis around which other changes pivot, I believe. There is a difference between experimenting with new behavior and beliefs (about yourself) when the ANS is or isn't stuck in the past. I'm tempted to think that something like CBT can become actually very useful in a later stage, when it can land on fertile ground where it landed on concrete before.

It's all infinitely more complex and nuanced than the above implies. The comparison with animals adds another huge layer to it. This spills over into the question what it means to be human, and what consciousness is. I don't expect there to be a clear cut between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom. Our ability to project the virtual organ we identify as into past and future is likely unrivaled though. It has evolutionary advantage and I think it also comes at a high price. The risk for trauma may be one of them.

Having a sense of self inherently creates a sense of separation. This is exacerbated in the case of DT. I imagine that sense of separation is not there in other animals to the degree it is part of us. I think what we call trauma is interlinked with believing to be a self, separate from the world and living in time. It enables us to visit imaginary places, to not be here. This may spill over into the ability to dissociate difficult material, ironically insuring it's continuous influence on us. Without a sense of self, it's probably much more full on, yet not as enduring.

Research into the default mode network (DMN) shines a very interesting light on this, especially with regards to psychedelics and the healing power of mystical experiences. In those, the activity of the DMN is lowered. The DMN is the neurological equivalent of what in spiritual circles is called the ego. When ego death occurs, under the influence of high dose psychedelics or otherwise, there is no separation, only suchness or enlightenment. On the opposite side of the spectrum, high activity of the DMN correlates with depression, anxiety, and so forth. They are all very self centered states.

Sages have been telling us for ages "I" is an illusion. Neuroscience does the same. We may be the only species on the planet living in the dream of duality. This is where my mind goes when I think about DT and if it's uniquely human. My guess would be it's on a spectrum, which correlates with the sense of separateness on the one end, and suchness on the other. It's reflected in culture and how offspring is raised. In evolutionary sense it hasn't been long since we started raising children in a small family instead of them being part of a group of 50 or so people right away. The start of agriculture and private property likely did us not much good in this regard. I'm not even talking about us being born "prematurely" due to our large heads and so much of our basic neurology being sculpted by the social environment we happen to land in. The complexity is endless! I don't know how to determine if animals suffer from C-PTSD. I'd start with looking into the work of Jane Goodall, Frans de Waal and Robert Sapolsky, I guess. My guess would be they'd say we're not as unique as we think.

I don't recall who said it, but I've always liked the definition of life to be that which can repair itself. That includes us. It makes evolutionary sense to me our systems too are always striving towards equilibrium. I don't think DT is a sickness we can heal from, but rather something we learned about our environment and ourselves, which isn't updated because it happened in the period when the maps of ourselves and the world were formed. We still navigate life with those. I have faith in our systems to adjust themselves once we find a way to update the very basic programming. It makes no evolutionary sense to me that our systems would maintain such a highly energetically expensive way of operating if no threat is perceived anymore where there truly isn't one. Perhaps our systems aren't sick, but just ill informed. It's a better safe than sorry strategy, which is only preferred as long as nothing more optimal is introduced. Thriving emotionally and socially is more optimal than perpetual suffering in the absence of constant perceived danger. We naturally want to go there. Loneliness is a good clue our system is nudging us in this direction. It made me sign up here and seek therapy, for one. It sure does not feel like it, but it has my best interest in mind. All automatically generated, as an outcome of a highly complex algorithm, which constantly operates below the radar.

Each of us is a walking miracle. If you think for a second what our ANS'es pull off every second, it's jaw dropping. A beating heart, digestion, breathing, temperature regulation, chemical balances in the blood, energy to all cells,... I think it's intelligent far beyond what we normally realize, because we have trouble acknowledging anything other than our cognition to be intelligence. The irony is that the latter only comes in after the fact to claim ownership. We're a funny bunch.

In my mind we're still in the middle ages when it comes to understanding and addressing DT. I don't know about you, but I can't wait for science to catch up before I take action. I know what doesn't work and I know what resonates and makes sense to me in the light of my personal experiences and what I've learned from studying. The bottom line is that I pretty much don't know anything. I trust my intuition over anything. It has never let me down. I think it's an interface between the conscious and the unconscious, through which I'm informed about what is needed for the system as a whole to get in better shape. I don't expect miracles. I don't even expect DT to ever be no part of my life. All I need is a next step to take. I'll see from there.

Much love and tons of hugs right back at you!  :hug:

I wish you all would recognize when looking in the mirror...

Lamb - Gorecki

Overwhelm. And the seemingly slightest shift sends me spinning. Nothing bad. Thanks for reminding me of this artist.

Sorry about that Chart! Sending you a big hug  :hug:

Thanks SO. Back atcha.

I was really starting to dread traveling to a foreign country for therapy. The nights and the days were relentless in the EF. I don't know what emotional age I regressed to, but I was incredibly vulnerable, lonely, and desperate. Due to the madness at night, I was falling apart. I could not envision myself going through customs and all that stuff and navigating my way through a foreign place. It has become triggering like it hasn't before. Just those ingredients alone. Even though I wasn't planning on abandoning the plan, it was starting to look ominous. I don't think I've ever been so scared for a therapy in my life. I'm really scared for what's coming. That hasn't changed. Tonight I had another scare over it. Somewhere between waking and sleeping.

Much to my surprise and relief, my sleep started to behave. This was the beginning of another mode, which has already lasted six days now. I omitted the benzo's without any problem. The despair and loneliness have largely moved to the background. I do however, feel seriously socially anxious. I'm scared to be seen, especially by the neighbors. Yesterday I had to take care of some stuff in the city center. It took ages for the person who was helping me. I had to wait there while she was doing her thing. She messed up a couple of times, which eventually started to increase my anxiety. All I wanted was to get out of there ASAP. My stomach was in a knot, and I was fawning all over the place. It was a significant stress response to something trivial. I watched it happen and tried to stay as calm and outwardly unfazed as possible. A tiny reminder of how life used to be when I couldn't retrieve into my bunker.

Nine more days to bridge before I go. I hope I can continue like this, so I'll feel robust enough to take the jump. It's good to intervene in any case. I can't continue as is.

 :grouphug:

Travelling definitely adds another layer of difficulty to navigate on top of all the EFs that will be brought up. Hopefully you'll get a clear answer as to whether it's worth the risk to do this as you get even closer to the date.

My own experience travelling for a therapeutic experience was for sure a mixed bag.

And oh boy do I know that EF feeling you described waiting and just desperately needing to get out of there. It's a terrible ominous feeling.  :grouphug:

I'm glad things are settling a little bit at least in the sleep department.

A sneaking suspicion... we've existed decades with cptsd... when Everything goes wrong, we know it, repeat. When certain patterns stay the same, while others seem to start breaking, it means something. EVERYTHING can't all start going right, not at once. Impossible. But while much remains the same, there are « hints ». And these little signs are life preservers... you are afloat, and will stay afloat. Let it go now... I am terrified, but ready. Part of me knows. Part of me is now going out in the dark with a lamp and is actually capable of looking for the rest. I feel halves are far more trustworthy than either extremes. It is just possible this is insanely positive.

I hope to Hades that made sense. So many little things are jumping out at me in your words, SO. Without any certainty, I feel nearly identical.

Hey SO,

I can really empathize with travelling to a foreign country and how difficult it can be, especially since I'm going through something similar right now (and I guess for almost half my adult life I've lived in other countries). I also think it's quite different for you because you will be going somewhere unknown to undertake an unknown, and deeply profound experience for yourself. That's a lot of trust and control to give up for someone with developmental trauma IMO. I can imagine it's a big ask on yourself, so I hope you can be gentle with yourself and take it just one day at a time.

Sending you support,
dolly

HAPPY NEW YEAR people !!!  :fireworks:

Armee, thank you. It seems I got lucky. I've been out of the big storm for over a week now, and the travel no longer scares me like it did in the EF. I'm now in a mental space I've been in before when I was about to do something challenging. In this state I'll be okay getting to the place I rented. It seems descent and safe. Nineteen years ago I traveled out of the country for therapy, and the places where I stayed were highly triggering. The therapy was helpful, so a mixed bag. No regrets though, you?  :grouphug:


Chart
Well said. You're making sense to me. Not many people tick like this, I've noticed. It's great to meet someone who does. Thank you for your encouragement.

Terrified but ready may be a good therapeutic spot. The curious, caring, trusting, ready part only needs to be a bit bigger than the fear to keep going. Those bread crumbs show the way, don't they? That's how it feels for me at least. It's an odd place to be in, where there's less defense, more vulnerability and fear, yet greater trust, all at the same time. I'm more ready to let someone in than I ever was. It's time to take the step I never could. There's no alternative for connection.

I've done crazier stuff than this to heal, yet nothing so much on target as this, I believe. The fear is there because I sense this goes right towards the core of my trauma. Being able to go there creates a serious therapeutic window, which indeed is positive, despite the intense emotions involved. We'll see how it plays out. I have very little to lose. :hug:


dollyvee
Thanks for sharing that and the nudge to be kind to myself. I'm taking notice. Seeing it phrased like that made me realize this is a big step even more so than I realized. Foreign country + therapy + psychedelics + developmental trauma + connection is a pretty serious stack. None of it is new to me, but the combination is. Plus my defenses are partially broken down due to my previous efforts. So it's no wonder I recently got a big scare and landed in an EF.

Are you in a good place at the moment, despite what you're going through? :hug:

Wishing you a Happy New Year   :fireworks:

Happy New Year to you!!!! Your planned new start bodes well! I'm glad you are in a better place regarding the travels. And no, no regrets from me for my travels to heal. It is a very important and poignant part of my life and my relationships with my therapist and my husband and myself. 

Happy New Year my companion voyager. Along this road a host of amazing personalities, each slowly making his way forward. Yet all here have paused for me and offered up insights and perspectives that ring with promise. Encouragement becomes contagious: may this new year bring you and us all ever that much closer to the peace and love we so faithfully know is waiting.

Happy New Year!

I'm glad your EF is lessening and you are gaining some new perspective about your upcoming experience, and at the end of the day, it is just that, an experience. One amendment I will make is that it's not half of my adult life that I've lived in foreign countries, it's most of my adult life. Wow, I never realized that until I wrote it. (What's funny is I keep comparing things to "back home" and how the people are mostly different, which I guess is true, and I guess it matters a lot to me to is how people treat each other. Sorry, just rambling).

I'm not really sure how I feel/am at the moment tbh. I feel quite out of my "head" in the usual way, though I do feel like I'm trying to rengage some patterns, but also that maybe it feels weird to go back to them.

Wishing you all the best on your travels and hope you are able to get closer to what you need.  :hug:

dolly

Thanks for your support everybody! I did read, but couldn't reply before leaving for Poland.

It's been unbeleavable what happened here. Long story short, the place I booked had bed bugs. My entire sense of safety and solid ground fel away. Had to spend one horrific night there. Could not be sure none were in my clothes and stuff and was terrified T would not risk having me infect the place. Envisioned everything being cancelled. In my dream I gave up on life. This was too much. I went into full blown despair.

When I notified T it turned out to be no issue and the therapy would continue. I can't express how grateful and relieved I felt.

I was kicked out of the place I stayed when I finally managed to get through to them there was a huge problem. Exterminator came. Only a few hours before my first session, I was on the street. I had to find another place right away and find out how to get there, and than how to get to my T. I don't know how I managed, but I did. It was a complete horror show.

First non medicine session went exceptionally well. Far beyond what I could have imagined. Full blown somatic and I could connect with T. It just happened. It may have been the state I was in and/or my long preparation, but it was so strange and totally natural at the same time my body took over. T didn't expect this either, I could tell. Amazing.

Next morning first ketamine session. Low dose, but is was a high dose to my system. Holy smokes did that hit me hard. 2-3 hours of full body, involuntary movements, highly psychedelic, and in all of the intensity and overwhelm, my T was there. Wherever I went, whatever happened. It was such a godsent to connect to her. I was never alone. She did not let me go, remained a life line and a voice that kept coming through to my rapidly shifting reality of madness and terror. I must have uttered gratitude for T being here dozens of times.

I'm scared for the next one tomorrow. I'll leave it at that for now.

With you and feeling you, SenseOrgan. All my love and support. I've an image of mounting a magnificent stallion, terrifying but overwhelmingly liberating... You are a warrior fighting for your rightful freedom. Ride hard, straight and true, the light is not the setting sun but a child of joy and peace turning gold with morning song.

I hope it goes well SO  :cheer:  Thanks for the update. Am rooting for you.

Thanks guys!

Very impressive session today. Initially 80% of the previous dose. After an hour had the 20% added, which turned out to be an excellent idea. The little boy experienced a lot of connection and love today. How happy I am to have found PSIP and T! Very special and positive to experience as a little boy, what it is like to be securely attached to an adult. No fear of rejection, judgment, or anything else. Only love. It is shocking to experience how unusual that is. Fortunately, I could let a lot in, although there was also a moment when I expressed that I don't deserve it. Nevertheless I squeezed her hand, scared to lose the connection again.

Never in my 27-year career have I been able to work with a therapist on the level of attachment trauma, other than with words that landed nowhere. PSIP is really of a different order. It lands because they are new experiences. Experiences of a child.

Amazing SO!

 :yeahthat:
Indeed! So content to hear your description, SO.
 :hug:

Thank you! What a gift this is. What a gift!

Today I'm in the botanical garden to relax a bit. Yesterday I went, but it was closed. My eye catches a plant. There is no sign with a name on it. I recognize it. My psychedelic journey started with it in 2007. It's Tabernanthe iboga. It was a solo trip, in which I met the lonely boy and the sitter literally wasn't there with me. Only many many years later I understood what I had encountered. Now I am here and the boy finally found love. Only in connection. This touches my heart. Full circle...

A friend checked the picture I took with a species recognition tool. Iboga.

Indeed, there is no such thing as coincidence.
(why is there no emoji of a shaman guiding an initiate across the astral plane? :-)

Just came back from my first PSIP session with cannabis. The start was almost 6 hours ago and I still haven't fully landed from the 6 hits I took.

Wat just happened was unlike I have ever experienced. What started out as sensations of having my hands in ice or boiling water, shifted into a painfully tight neck. It was as if my head was directed, almost as if somebody with a strong hand had grabbed me there and was moving it very slowly but very firmly. It happened on it's own. The only thing I did was not interfere. I don't think I even could have. My normal agency was shoved aside. Something else was steering. It was my own body, yet it wasn't me doing it. Very slow but incredibly powerful movements. Primal movements, like those of a salamander. Organic. Fluent. Determined. Resolute.

Meanwhile I was going away every other second or so. Away to nowhere. Not existing. T tried to have me describe it, but I could not describe not existing. There is not a there there with properties to reference.

I was squirming on the floor. Or rather I was being squirmed. It came in waves of 30, 20, 15 minutes according to T. I kept forgetting she was there unless she reminded me, which she kept doing.

Several times I was maneuvered into stuck positions, in which I had trouble breathing. It gave me a sensation of choking. I could not get enough air. I was terrified of choking. I thought I was going to die. T reminded me she was there. This helped to stay with it for a short while. It was very scary.

I was away most of the time. It rapidly alternated with being here. Flashes of a second, maybe. I could not make myself stay. This process was beyond my control.

It was such a strange phenomenon, yet I was okay with it being behind the wheel, with not knowing what the * was happening.

At some point T slowly started wrapping up the session. I was still mostly gone, nowhere near capable of functioning. It was already 2-2.5 hours after the start. To her it was as if we had a normal conversation. I was mostly not there. It was getting scary. I became very scared to be stuck here forever. Like a schizophrenic. Reality had lost its sense of being reliably true. Very dangerous terrain in which I was drifting off. I was starting to become a bit paranoid. Stopped trusting my T.

It was really hard to land. Physical exercises, some sweet cake and a massage device could not bring me back. I stayed away mostly. I was loosing faith in a return. I think I was right in picking up on T wanting to end the session. But I was still far away. I could not land. Eventually she did not let me walk back, but brought me with her car. I think I could have barely made it on my own. She gave me some benzos I could take if too scared or unable to sleep.

I still haven't landed, but I keep getting closer to it as time passes. The movements have long since stopped. I'm no longer scared. Mainly tired and blurry, zoned out. I already took care of the munchies by going to the shop and buying cheese cake and chips.

In between the waves I realized the absurdity of what was happening. It was also very funny to me somehow. Until the next wave started. I had enough of this exhausting process, but I had no say in it. It kept going until it was done.

I feel like my body worked extremely hard. I feel relieved on some level. Like my system is lighter, after an intense workout.

T did some suggestions on how to proceed with therapy. I felt a lot of resistance towards going here again. I have a sense there will be no reasonable okay life around whatever it is that has been set in motion. Like I basically have no choice if I want something else than the impossible road I've been on my whole life. It does not lead via the comfort zone. Apparently I need some time to get used to the realization this is what my discomfort zone feels like and more of this is in store.

Hopefully a good night sleep. Going home tomorrow. I worked incredibly hard this week. The speed with which all of it is happening is insane.

Cannabis was really different from ketamine. Brain stem stuff, comes to mind.

T says it's state 4, so dissociation. I had no clue. She was very surprised I never experienced dissociation in my normal life. Apparently the block was total. There is something very scary completely tucked away from consciousness. Well, it is no longer fully hidden. I feel like I made a journey to some far away part of my system.

Ketamine is more helpful for resourcing, cannabis for dissolving dissociation. So the latter is likely the be more challenging.

Apart from the fear that came up from time to time, the movements themselves had not much of a feeling tone to it. Physically often painful. Never over the top. Something feels benign about it. Familiar.

I am intimidated. And intrigued. I hope I can make myself explore more of this. It feels important. Like dealing with something at the only level that is going to have real effect on my existence. A crossroad. I may need help saying yes to this. I think I need to step further into the unknown. I barely know what I'm talking about. Yet I seem to know damn well this is running away or facing it. I don't want to be running. And I'm scared of the danger I sensed. Another day at the PSIP office. Time for some recovery time!!!

SenseOrgan, how very intense. What you describe makes me think of so many things. Thank you again for sharing all this.
With you in sprit.
 :hug:

Wishing you a safe landing and wishing you well SenseOrgan.

This sounds very intense SO. As an outsider, it sounds like it could be some kind of birth trauma? With the hands pushing your neck, the going away and coming back. Just my two cents tho!

I hope you find your way back and I'm glad your t was there with you.

Chart, Desert Flower, dollyvee
Thanks for being here and for your support! I appreciate it a lot!

@dollyvee
Yeah, it could be. T seems to suspect the same. The thought came to me before this one, during the first ketamine session in which my body made a lot of involuntary movements too. I may never know. If so, the knowing is not in my cortex, but in older structures. I think I "went" there. The whole thing is nothing out of the ordinary with PSIP by the way. Involuntary movements that come in waves. T confirmed this is what goes on in PSIP, when I wondered what on earth just happened after wave number one. I expected more convulsion-type movements, which did happen with ketamine. These were slow.

I just came home. If it wasn't a crazy movie already, it is now. I followed the protocol I came up with to keep any bed bug out that might have hitch hiked with me. Small chance, but still! My mom had put some clothes and bags in the shed. I put everything I carried and everything I was wearing in there. Some electronics had to go into separate bags to come with. The cases are now in zip lock bags in the freezer for 4 days. Going to look for a dryer to put my clothes in tomorrow. Need my jacket. It's proper winter here too.

The opening scene of a movie... A tired looking man enters a shed stuffed full of chaos. In the tiny open spot he starts putting the stuff he carries into bags and closing them. He strips down naked in the cold and puts those clothes in bags too. And so forth. I keep ending up in the strangest situations!

I'm happy to be home. Something is still way off with my focus/awareness. It's the same thing, but tuned down a bit. It nevertheless persists. I'm worried. Not acutely scared like I was before. Worried that I'm stuck with this. I'm not tripping or seeing or thinking weird stuff or anything. I don't think so myself at least... It's hard to describe what's going on.

PSIP is inherently destabilizing, I knew that beforehand. The way that it is in me still surprises me. I was expecting more emotional type dysregulation. This is not that. It's a bit like my brain is partially stuck in cannabis mode. Or I'm dissociating. I keep landing in the moment, after apparently having checked out in some way. Every minute or so. It's 32 hours after I took those puffs. That's not a good sign in any conventional sense of the word. I remember from my aya experiences that I had derealization/depersonalization for a couple of days. It went away eventually. I'm hoping this is something along the same lines.

I went very deep yesterday. I was contacting the foundation of what makes me me and came close to a very scary place. I'm shaken up, to say the least. My entire system could be realigning at the moment. Brain stem, limbic, cognition. And how one influences the other and how things are processed. Writing alternative coding while the machine is running. Something like that. I feel like a have a lot of processing and resting to do. I'm going to sleep a lot. And a friend has offered I can stay with him for a bit. Sounds like a good idea to not dive into isolation. At all, and not in this state in particular. I hope to be interacting here again soon. I don't feel okay about my monologue-ing of late. It's all I could muster during that mad week.  :hug:

SenseOrgan, please don't be self-conscious about your writing. You have shared so much during such an intense experience. I, for one, am honored and immensely impressed that you have done and shared all this. Please feel good about everything you have just done because it WAS good, for you and for others.
Thank you.
 :hug:

SenseOrgan, what a tremendous roller coaster ride that was! I'm amazed at how you pulled through.  :applause:

I hope it will bring you the growth and possibly breakthrough you are looking for.

SO I feel like I've this "stuck brain" that you're referring to before, and it was probably after recreational cannabis funnily enough. I see it as a new "mode"" that your brain has entered. For me, I liked it, but the "old stuff" was knocking at the door, wanting things to go back perhaps to the way they were in there (to a certain extent I think) and wanting to undo the insight. Again, it wasn't through PSIP, just recreationally. Maybe if I had the preparation of a PSIP session, that would have not been there, but to me, I think the new mode can be a good thing - it undoes the "pain identity" and allows a new one (new attachment) to be created. Did your t ever suggest Dan Brown's visualization video around attachment?

I've had involuntary movements before when I listen to Solfreggio frequencies before bed. I've tried to research why this comes up, but haven't really found anything. My woo woo explanation is that it activates your ephemeral body/energy body in a way that relates to your physical body. How what when where why I don't know, but have had some pretty intense dreams after.

Perhaps your m could shed some light on your birth for you and see if it makes any sense?

Thank you for sharing your experiences, it's so interesting to hear!

Sending you support  :hug:

Chart
Thank you for saying that Chart. It's been great to see you show up here in the midst of this roller coaster ride. It's a big deal to feel safe enough for a stream of consciousness on a forum. At least for me. At some point it just started going and I thought it would be okay here. I feel safe and seen here. Thank you!

Desert Flower
Thank you! Totally nuts. It's been a bit much to handle. I still feel broken open, not re-assembled, or something like it. Still in a non-ordinary state of some sort. A pinch more normalcy than yesterday. I just slept for 13 hours. Looks like this is going to take some time. It's great to see you here again. Interacting about what happened feels good at the moment.

dollyvee
I just wrote the below part, when your reply showed up. The overlap is striking. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences with cannabis and for your support! It is a great help. Part of me is writing now, in this state, because things may resort back to "normal" at some point and something can be closed again.

T hasn't suggested Dan Brown's video, but I'm interested. I'll look into it. Thank you.

Involuntary movements are fascinating! The substances only block the blocking (by the mind). They are not inducing the movements. It's wild you went there with the Solfreggio frequencies! Tell me more, if you want! I know a guy who went for a sound healing session post PSIP. This induced a PSIP wave. Certain frequencies may block the blocking like a psychedelic can. T has ordered a tuning fork. She may be thinking along the same lines. There is a there there. It may be less strange when you realize how certain music can move us. Also composed of frequencies. There seems to be something playing out on another level simultaneously. I don't like to put it into words, but if I'd have to I'd say a reckoning on a soul level or something like it. Very very deep and fundamental to who or what you are, what you're doing here. Dealing with the theme of this lifetime unobscured. Not shot into the cosmos, like psychedelics are known for, but deep inside the body. According to Saj Razvi, cannabis has an unrivaled power to land us into our body (and dissolve dissociation). The movements seem to be stuck energy (I'm thinking about Somatic Experiencing here). Little thoughts came up for me during. I've trained for many years to not go there, so that may be part of it. This is wild!  :hug:

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't opened up to anybody like I did this week in PSIP. Never trusted anyone to be so vulnerable and let go. It was met with endless patience and kindness. It is a shock to my system. Deliberate, calculated, yet still surprising and overwhelming. My old balance is off. That's good. It was my stuckness and isolation too. It's asking much of me to have faith my system will find a new stable place. I've used a tremendous amount of letting go into confusion and discomfort in the past seven years or so. I want a break. It may have been the training which facilitated me going so deep with PSIP. T seems to be really amazed how deep I went right from the start. I am too. I had cultivated the intention to connect and to trust in whatever would come. But I had no way of knowing to what degree that would help.

Watching all those PSIP vids was therapy in it's own right. I often saw myself. It was incredibly validating and normalizing. It definitively lowered my barriers. I was fully okay with letting my body take over. T was amazing in making me feel safe and connected. It is a very powerful experience to shift into primary consciousness and to have somebody there with you that you can trust. The loneliness and the defense are the same. It was a significant part of my identity. It looks like an important part of that has been shattered in the presence of love.

This afternoon I went to the super market to get some food. I hadn't eaten properly in a few days due to traveling and PSIP. It struck me that "dissociation" acted up in this environment. Big time. Or I noticed it more. I kept landing in the here and now after blinking out for a second or two. It took significant effort to function. It did feel more like still being stoned than experiencing the effects of the session. Disconcerting.

Currently it's nearly 55 hours after the session. I've been on my own for hours. I've had a proper meal and took vitamins. It feels like I'm close to functioning normally. This too seemed to come in waves. Very long ones. It's a big relief to experience my brain functioning "normally" at the moment. I was starting to dread I had broken it. I've experienced this fear on a psychedelic before, but while I was on it, never so long after that. A few hits of cannabis! Granted, after a whole lot of other intense stuff, but still. It's been some of the hardest hitting experiences I had.

The past days I've been extra gentle with myself, since the dissociation/depersonalization had not gone away when I thought it had. The last bit in my previous entry turned out to be premature.

This morning I did a guided meditation. About 40 minutes into it I broke it off. It was exacerbating what was going on. It increased the weirdness. Not a good idea. Not now.

There were still several bags with stuff and clothes in the shed. Possibly with bed bugs in them. My winter jacket for one. I hadn't forced myself to take care of it, which I think was a good call in this state. Now it was time to take some of it to a drying machine. Riding the bike it was obvious I still hadn't landed. It was hard to not hop on the scary thoughts train and extrapolate this state. Luckily I had stuff to do. This is one of the few situations in which distraction is actually constructive (thank god for the information age).

At the launderette I started reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Fear: Essential Wisdom for Getting Through the Storm (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13623836-fear). Right up my alley. Seamlessly in line with some insights I gained from my PSIP experiences. Original fear rippling through life, always fighting different variations on the same theme. About inner child work within a few pages. Found it while looking for info on depersonalization. Good stuff.

By now enough normalcy has creeped in that I'm starting to have faith I'll land properly. Soon-ish. Right now I feel quite normal. I had a face to face conversation this afternoon, during which only a pinch of the weirdness was going on. That's encouraging.

Tomorrow I have an appointment with my shrink. I think I'll bring up the dissociation right away. We'll see what time is left to talk about the PSIP week itself.

Hi SenseOrgan, I applaud you again for the way you're navigating all these feelings and experiences and feeling what you need in the midst of it.

I'm also gonna check out the TNH book you mentioned on fear, that sounds helpful, thank you.

Keep taking care.  :hug:

Thank you for your kind words Desert Flower! I hope the book will be helpful to us both.  :hug:
---------------------------

Just got back from my visit to the shrink. He confirmed my suspicion about what's going on and how to best proceed. It helps to get that from my shrink, who's known me for a very long time. The dissociation is still present. Nowhere near as intense as it was, but it continues.

I hope my friend has time for a walk this weekend. I don't feel like being alone much. It's good that I can rest as much I as I need. I'm still very tired from last week. Shrink said he could see I was. I've been sleeping more since I got back home. The quality of the sleep seems to have improved somewhat. I don't get up like a train wreck. Too early to draw any conclusions.

Passed by and left some hugs behind :-)
 :hug:

Hey SO,

It's great to hear that you're feeling better after the dissociative episode  :cheer:

I have no problem talking about the movements. It's actually something that would happen quite a bit during EMDR as well.  I guess I see it as just a release though there have been times when "sensations" have come up as well. For example, when I was listening to a second chakra frequency, the idea of money and the relationship to money in my family showed up. I feel like I saw the history, the living through the Second World War etc and how difficult it must have been, but these ideas just sort of "floated" up.

Poss TW-

I had some quite extreme movements with this as well where my arms went up to the side of my head and it felt like I was being pinned down, or is the position you would be in if you were pinned down.

End Tw-

The second chakra is the chakra relating to money and sex. I've had others where it was like throwing myself on the bed, and my body would raise slightly, then slam down. Funnily enough, I found a video on Tibetan yogis and there is a practice where they repeatedly slam their bodies on the ground, I think to "loosen" energetically. A lot of the times though it's jus shaking in my upper body, arms, tensing in the torso. To me, the frequencies have perhaps the same effect as a Tibetan singing bowl would, and that certain frequencies attune to certain vibrations, and is maybe a way to bring "energetic stuff" into the conscious mind to process. There is an idea of the "subtle" body in Buddhism, which IMO relates to this.

That's interesting as well that "you've trained for many years to not go there" and have gone into a dissociative state after the experience. Perhaps it is a place where you need to go?

Sending you support  :hug:
dolly

Hi SenseOrgan,
I am also sending you support, and I also noted down the book title you mentioned - as it sounds like it might be helpful.  Thank you.
Hope

Chart
Nice to find them, thank you  :hug:


dollyvee

Hi there! This is the first time I hear about physical movements during EMDR (which I didn't study extensively). I had suspected that EMDR works by occupying the mind, so that emotions can slip passed and be processed when triggered. It makes sense there can also be a bodily component to it, although not aimed for in EMDR as far as I'm aware. You may have a talent for this too, or you may have done a lot prior to this to have this response (also to the sounds). I'm thrilled (hope that's not inappropriate). Energetic stuff is a challenge for my skeptical mind (partially due to the origin of my trauma), but I'm keeping it open. It may all be true and I may one day see for myself. Thanks for sharing and your support.  :hug:

With the "training" I meant staying with the bodily sensations and emotions, instead of identifying with the mind and trying to figure out what's going on (as a subtle way of avoiding the experience). A good preparation for the selective inhibition component in PSIP, it seems. The dissociation that followed the last PSIP session caught me by surprise though. Quite a few factors went into this mix of the whole week. It can be interpreted several ways, which makes it difficult to determine where to go from here. Dissociation is not something that normally happens to me and this incident scares me. I may have found a way to get to the root of my fears, which my system responded to by protecting me with dissociation. In that case I think I need to explore it further at some point. The whole week may have tipped me over the edge and landed me in dissociation. It's hard to say. It was a bit much, that's for sure. First, properly land! Very close to it. I'm not dissociating anymore I think.


Hope67
Thank you! I hope the book helps.  :hug:

SenseOrgan, Reading your posts about your dissociative episode got me seriously thinking... Something about the situation you described... went against an intuitive... suspicion...? Feeling...?

Do we not generally view dissociation in a relatively negative sense? Aside from the admittedly and generally accepted belief that it is a protective system, which is just in place to help us avoid pain?

But here's what's come to me tonight (on my third reading of your last post... I jump around a lot... :-)

What if there are two aspects of Dissociation? One being protection, but the other being Healing itself?

What about the possibility that dissociation actually has a  primary purpose of allowing neural networks the down-time they need to reorganize and restructure? What if dissociation is actually fundamentally linked to the actual healing?

When I was in my fourth year in France I was seriously frustrated regarding my comprehension level of French. I'd been working and studying very hard for years on the language and could at that point speak relatively well. However my comprehension seemed to be lagging majorly. I still just didn't understand what people were saying. I didn't get it. It seemed to be taking me far too long compared with many others I knew in a similar situation. I was teaching English at the time and immersed in the pedagogy of language learning. I had a diploma from the American University in the subject and my situation just didn't seem to make sense. I knew I must somehow be "blocked", but the solution to my problem remained a mystery. I remember all this very well. A good friend at the time listened to my analysis and nonetheless promised me that, "It will come." (I also now know that my problem was specifically linked to my trauma.) Anyway, shortly after this I flew back to the US for a three week visit. Naturally I re-immersed myself back into English and didn't even think about it too much aside the fact that everything was suddenly so much easier in my native language. Then the vacation was over and I flew back to France. Imagine my shock when a few days after my return I realized that my French comprehension had immensely improved. All of a sudden I could understand much much better what people were saying. At the time I immediately attributed this change to the "down-time" I'd just had in the US. Which I still believe was correct. My brain just needed to stop using my French comprehension circuits to build them up. Could this not be the primary purpose of Dissociation?

When we go through an intense learning process, doesn't it make sense that our brain has to shut down certain zones while making the necessary changes? Just like work on a metro line? Can't run the trains while repairing the tracks...

Chronic dissociation could have developed out of this primary function, and might have a hindering effect. But perhaps there are other situations where we just need to switch off certain sections (especially after major work) in order to restructure specific neural networks.

I'm going to start looking at the possible positive outcome from short-term "unique" dissociation (that is to say not overly repeated).

Just a thought :-)

I'm not sure as I believe I've had them in all my EMDR sessions. I don't think it's necessarily an aptitude for it, but perhaps a result of just having to suppress everything growing up (all emotions, thoughts reactions etc that could and often were met with some kind of punishment). So, while I feel like I am functioning "normally" at a cognitive level, processing things "intellectually," my body is reminding me that there are very different memories stored. Perhaps this is because it was just too terrifying to address them cognitively at the time, and/or I didn't have the cognitive ability as an infant to do that. Perhaps your body/you feel that you are not in a safe place to feel/release whatever is coming up and has gone into a form of dissociation.

My understanding of EMDR is that it kind of does a, "look over there!" distraction exercise while the targeted emotions come up. So, it engages parts of the brain that can focus on sensation (?) and something it can "do" while these memories come up, which I think is what you're saying too. So, my mind is no longer focused on suppressing the sensations to function cognitively.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I would be interested to hear about how energy and the skepticism around that is impacted by your trauma if you want to talk about it. For me, I would say that I was a lot more skeptical in the past. As I started doing the work, I have come to acknowledge that certain things are "true" for me. In the past, I felt I would have had to "run things by" someone else to get an understanding of my own reality, and this is exactly what I had to do growing up in a narcissistic household. My reality/me was never acknowledged. That's also not to say that I'm going to believe in things just "because," but have to believe the "evidence" even if it doesn't make "sense." And a lot of the times, I don't understand it, but it's almost like the "evidence" is so strong that I can't not believe it. So, have found other sources that deal with these things. This started with me trying IFS and experiencing things I couldn't understand at first, but were in fact very "real." I would recommend it if you haven't tried it, but also perhaps to read up on grounding and Self as well as it's imperative for dissociation.

For me, I think when you're dealing with preverbal trauma, there is a lot of big "fears" out there, and perhaps those are exacerbated when one becomes disembodied, which may have happened as an infant allowing one to access "esoteric" spaces (going from Healing Developmental Trauma here). Maybe this is mimicked in PSIP and psychedelic therapy. For me, the below is really interesting though it's sometimes difficult for my preverbal self to grasp what the concepts are. I find it similar how he speaks of "the great mother" and then there is I who come from a long line of "mothering" and identity (NPD) issues. Anyways, you might find it interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0g05e8QIs&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=18

I hope you are finding a safe landing  :hug: 

I guess I wanted to conclude that despite the discomfort you felt at this nagging and enduring feeling of dissociation, maybe all that was in effect the aftermath of some major positive changes...

Hopefully time will tell... How are you doing as time passes and things settle?

Chart/dollyvee
Thanks for thinking with me. I soaked it all in and let the matter settle for a bit. The dissociation went away on it's own, after which the anxiety around it followed suit. I knew I had to land first, before I could decide how to proceed from here. In my experience an anxious state rarely is a good place from where to do that. When the muddy water was left alone for some time, it became more clear.

It seems highly likely to me and both health care professionals I consulted that the therapy week was too much. My PSIP T suggested to take it down a notch. The next step is going to be more gentle. This is a rather simple and pragmatic response to what happened. It's the middle way between wanting to continue with PSIP and taking disturbing feedback from my system seriously.

A given in life is that sometimes decisions have to be made on the basis of little data. And calculated risks are often necessary to get ahead. Fear is a complicating factor. Especially in the case of (developmental) trauma. I take it very seriously, but it can't be the final factor informing my decisions. After all is said and done, I usually go with my intuition. This time too. I'm going to give myself some more time to settle down after what has happened, before I take a next step. I'll leave it at that for now.  :hug:

Hi SenseOrgan,
Intuition is a powerful tool.  It can be based on lots of things.  Sending you a hug of support  :hug:
Hope

Hi SO,

Good to hear that things are better. Sending you support  :hug:

dolly

Thank you Hope67 and dollyvee  :hug:
*****************************************


I cheked in at OOTS almost every day. And started typing away many times. Only to delete it again, just not being clear on what it is that I'd want to say, if anything at all. My words dried up for a while.

Significant bouts of depression last week. Buddy, there's stuff inside which has top priority, it tells me. So much so, that not much can penetrate the despair. There's a thorn in you're heart, and you will not florish in any way, shape, or form untill you have found a way to take it out. My subconscious is dead set on having this at the top of my agenda. The better I learned to listen, the more impossible it became to not hear.

Almost everything oozes the utter aloneness of the past, which is now so close to the surface. It shows up in triggers most often. The unfulfilled need to have my inner experience reflected back to me by an attuned parent. To have it acknowledged, at least. Safety. Welcome. Belonging. Love.

I walk around in a giant mirror called the world. What I project onto it is how I experience life. Deep down I'm still a little boy, desperate for a safe and loving connection. His grief and pain is devastating. It shows up with the slightest hint. I seem to have become ever more specific in what does not trigger. Claustrophobic. EF's galore.

I don't want this to vanish. Wishing the messenger away is not the constructive thing to do. I would betray myself. There's no peace in fragmentation. I am one and what was too big to handle always finds a way to make itself known. It IS part of me. The love that the little boy so desperately longs for only existed in a window in time. It is closed forever. His heart is broken.

And then he WAS able to connect and experience love and safety, so many decades later. It was a shock to the system there is a way in. Different from the transpersonal love I experienced before. There really is a way to relate to the boy on a human level too. Still. The scene in which he cried in despair and held on to her hand for dear life must have been heart breaking to witness.

I think what happened in the wake of this is an even greater sense of how devastating the lack was. It was an exceptionally positive, corrective, experience to relate in this way. And the contrast was extremely painful. I feel like I'm still adjusting after an experience that's so different from what I've been used to all my life. Almost everything about me is wrapped up in surviving, in staying alive without something so tender as this.

Survival is what I know, what I'm good at. I got a glimpse of what life would be like in connection. Peanuts, I called it. I lost track of it in the turbulent phase post sessions. Working with psychedelics always feels like a fast fading dream afterwards. It retracts to the unconscious soon after. This was the first time I went in there with the purpose of planting a seed. That sure happened. I'll be going back in less than two weeks for another attempt.

SenseOrgan, your posts so often ring like ethereal bells in my head. Your description brings up memories that I haven't ever really been able to put into concrete ideas, let alone words. Is this the core of pre-verbal trauma? A vague sense-ghost of intense nostalgia..? all orbiting around the void of love and feeling secure or just being held?
Thank you for your expressions and sharing. Sending love.
 :hug:

Thanks for being here Chart. I haven't been able to finish reading your journal yet. But I recognize what happened to you post break-up. It's heart breaking to read. I'm sorry you're going through this. I've been there too, and barely survived it. A part of that was present, adult grief. Most of it wasn't. It was the experience of the void, bursting into consciousness. An EF which lasted for years. Re-activated with an unexpected encounter, five years later, and again with an unexpected e-mail ten years after the break-up. No declarative memory. Just unfathomable pain, loneliness, despair.

At it's core, it never was about the break-up. Not the adult one. All this time, this one had been the foundation of who I became. I had been looking for events, attempting to understand why I had wanted to die for so long. Eventually I understood it's about what did not happen. My heart always knew. Attachment trauma just hides in plain sight, since it's in who we identify as and how we experience the world. A fragile structure built on the brink of annihilation, with the cornerstone missing. It's all about love.  :hug:

Quote from: SenseOrgan on January 31, 2025, 02:08:38 PMThe unfulfilled need to have my inner experience reflected back to me by an attuned parent. To have it acknowledged, at least. Safety. Welcome. Belonging. Love.

Yes, that.

I'm with you SenseOrgan, you're definitely on to something here.  :hug:

Thank you Desert Flower. I'm sorry that you understand this, but I'm grateful you're here  :hug:
By the way, I've always liked your name. It reminds me of my urbex days. The most fascinating thing about it was to see life flourish in inhospitable places. No coincidence there... 

i agree, senseorgan, it is all about love.  i totally relate to what you said about so much of this being about what did not happen.  same here. people can say 'i love you' but not know what that means, what it entails, how it's shown.  or, not saying it when it's needed to be said.  what did not happen.  ugh!  it just screws w/ everything that comes after.  love and hugs :hug:

Quote from: SenseOrgan on February 04, 2025, 06:31:53 PMto see life flourish in inhospitable places

Yes, it will regardless. Thank you. And we can now give ourselves what we needed to be nourished in the first place. :hug:

Quote from: sanmagic7 on February 07, 2025, 03:47:18 PMi agree, senseorgan, it is all about love.  i totally relate to what you said about so much of this being about what did not happen.  same here. people can say 'i love you' but not know what that means, what it entails, how it's shown.  or, not saying it when it's needed to be said.  what did not happen.  ugh!  it just screws w/ everything that comes after.  love and hugs :hug:

'I love you' means something different to us. It is the joy that fills the void. A draught of cool water at the peak of the dune. The setting of the sun with someone holding our hand. But the glass is always half empty. "Having" in the present is only a reminder of what never was in the past. It cannot be circumnavigated. We can encircle the globe, but never re-find our starting point. It seems we carry it with us the whole voyage. And now when I finally accept that I must drop it, I look and find my hands are empty. But there they are, my ex and my father, off in the distance, the saddest of expressions on their faces... as if none of this was anything to do with them. Torture by hypocrites.

sanmagic7
Yeah, a (young) child has no concepts of love, but is impacted by it like nothing else. It's often in very little things which speak louder than words. Attunement is a good summery for me. It can also be confusing when behavior doesn't match what is said. There can be an incredible amount of violence going on just below the radar. It profoundly shapes a developing nervous system. It's bloody hard to update, but I feel I have no choice but to keep going for it. Much love.  :hug:

Desert Flower
Yes, this is an ongoing invitation to meet our younger selves with the compassion and care they deserve. In my better days I can see it's a beautiful process to welcome them home. What was a tough lesson for me though, is that I need to heal in relation to a safe other. The process is also about relating to others authentically and vulnerably. The pain may never be fully processed, but it can be the thing which makes true connection possible. This is a silver lining I also see playing out on this forum.  :hug:

Chart
Over the years, I've seen this change from always present, full in my face, to episodes. I wouldn't be surprised if it'll never fully resolve. It could though. In the EF, it is a given that this void will always be the case. Out of it, I can see that the thought about the future is a projection of my current state. The thought has no knowledge about the future. It doesn't come from the future. It is a reflection about what is going on now and an extrapolation of the past. I have no way of actually knowing how I'll feel in a given moment which isn't here. If I look back at where I came from, I'm now where I never could imagine myself to be. Alive, for one. Life is still rough. Very rough at times. And it's 1000x better than it was overall. There is a lot I have no say in and a lot that hurts. I'm most at peace when I take life as it comes. Practicing this has become more important to me than insisting on life being a certain way. I'm often reminded of how Shinzen Young captured it: Suffering = Pain x Resistance. Much love.  :hug:

interesting observation about pain being a connection among people, senseorgan.  this forum is a perfect example of that, for sure. 

may i gently disagree with something you said, about not having a choice.  actually, you do, and you are choosing to keep going for it, unlike many others who decided and chose otherwise.  it speaks to your strength and determination to not let everything from your past define you and your life going forward.  that's inspiring. this forum is filled w/ people who continue to choose to fight, struggle, and 'update' (love this concept!) to have a healthier life and outlook going forward.  a more loving one, which, to my mind, is the best kind.

thank you for your wisdom.  love and hugs :hug:

I like your reflections very much. You'll definitely get there.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on February 10, 2025, 07:05:45 AMThe thought has no knowledge about the future. It doesn't come from the future. It is a reflection about what is going on now and an extrapolation of the past.

This reminds me of something I read with the School of Life. They say our fears about the future are not so much about things that might actually/likely happen, but more likely about things that already happened.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on February 10, 2025, 07:05:45 AMI need to heal in relation to a safe other. The process is also about relating to others authentically and vulnerably.

And this is very true I think as well. Relating to others who care about us gives us new messages about ourselves that we need very much. And that we can use to slowly but steadily rewire.

Senseorgan,

I just read a response you made to my MDMA thread back in November. I confess that during November, December and January I was in a difficult place in my walk and was not able to stay in touch with all my responses to my posts of November.  So I didn't read your amazing, AMAZING response to my MDMA report until just now.

I want you to know that I resonate deeply with what you wrote that day. You wrote about spirituality in ways that truly expresses my own experiences with it. You mentioned that you entered into spiritual understanding as a way to avoid suicide from loneliness, only to discover you are lonely now still. You feel as if you are alone with your understanding. I want to change that.

I resist discussing it in much detail here on the main forum because we have rules about not talking about politics and religion. While spirituality is not religion, it comes close enough to warrant caution in where it is discussed.

I want to say though that what you said about eternity and spirituality is perfectly aligned with my beliefs and experiences. My one MDMA experience changed me profoundly by giving me that experience of finally experientially knowing what I had only been able to believe up to then. We believe with our heads, but we know with our hearts. I always believed I was connected to all things and all people, but the MDMA helped me to experience that connection for real. And that changed me profoundly. I've been living in a sense of reverence ever since. (Reverence, to me, is the knowing that I'm not alone spiritually. Knowing and believing are two very different things. It's like the difference between having read that skydiving is safe and fun versus having gone skydiving for real and experiencing it. Reverence doesn't come from reading about spirituality. It comes from experiencing it and knowing now that it's absolutely real).

I regret that it took me 3 months to read your response, but I'm truly grateful for what you wrote that day.

sanmagic7
Thank you for your kind words. I'm honored to mingle with people like yourself in this wonderful place. I have a lot of catching up to do, since I'd like to know more about your back stories. All in good time. It's great we can inspire and encourage each other here. Directly via interaction and indirectly via reading posts. There have been a couple of moments where I felt quite bad and wasn't able to put my state into words. At these moments it was a relief to be able to read what others had posted here, knowing it came from people who understand this great challenge. The overall vibe here is constructive and very supportive. I like to think that interacting here has an impact on life offline.

Desert Flower
I'm glad you like them and thank you very much for your encouragement. I'd agree with what you read with the School of Life. Certainly in the context of C-PTSD. It's like our system expects what has happened to continue to happen. There's no update that those experiences culminate in something very difficult, which eventually subsides. It's clear to me there is little/no memory of resolution on board, which gives thoughts about the future their sticky feeling tone. I can relate to thoughts and feelings about "the future" as a difficult experience I have NOW though.

Papa Coco
Thank you for stopping by and responding to my comment on your thread! No matter how much time passed, I'm very happy it resonates and I really appreciate your reply. The feeling is mutual. I was delighted to discover your writings about this subject. I'll say more about it in a PM, since indeed this can be pretty triggering for people.



*****************************************************************
I had another PSIP session. Different vibe this time. No bedbugs. The city more familiar. Not so alienating. I know the drill. It helps. Apparently not with my anxiety around needles. I'm embarrassed to say the prospect of being injected had been stressing me out quite a bit prior to it happening. It doesn't help it's with a psychoactive substance. Just one session this time. Better to take it down a notch after what happened last time.

Shivers. Trembles. Cold. T feels too far away. I readily agree to have her sit next to me. It's great, this connection. Safe. Familiar. My body takes over right away. All of my physicality is involved. My legs behave like I have a seizure. Emotionally I dip into familiar terrain. Sadness, loneliness, fear. I forgot a lot already. It was less overwhelming than last time. I remained nearly fully present throughout. Aware of what was happening and easily in connection with T.

Than there is the distinct tension in my neck again. The characteristic movements start again. Very intense contractions. Painful. A slow and incredibly powerfull force takes over. None is done at will. There is a relief in this. As if I can finally stretch after not having been able to for ages. I'm mostly fascinated by what is happening. Again. And it feels more familiar. It also feels right.

There's a transitional phase in which I start associating and communicating without much thought. T has me say a few things, which evoke a deeper felt sense of insights I had before. On some level I believe I'm worhty of getting my needs met. Yet on a deepr level I don't. A new reality has been introduced into my system. This is very positive. And it's in conflict with my sense of identity. The same goes for connection. It feels so familiar to go through life alone. It's tied in with surival. And with loneliness. I really want to continue connected, and it still feels like "not me". I'm torn between both worlds. Not wanting or even being able to continue as I always have, and not entirely okay letting it go and standing on the new leg. It's okay. It's positive.

Saying goodbye stirs up a deep sadness in me. This is such a big contrast for the little boy who got to connect again. He knows he's been seen though, and the sadness doesn't morph into despair because of this.

On my way home I realize how important it is for the inner child to have a witness to his pain. It's incredibly validating and liberating to be so vulnerable with a safe other. There are more levels to this. One is that whatever it is that's frightening or overwhelming is less so while in connection with a safe and compassionate other. What was true when I was a child still is true for the little one who is a primary part of me. I love the guy to bits, but there is no substitute for relating to another person through the child's perception. Human relational wounding requires human relational healing, as Saj Razvi so aptly summarized the medicine.

Home again, I feel lighter. As if I have wiggle room again. Choices. Options. No stuckness. The sadness is gone. The world seems more friendly. My dream last night reflected how scary it is for me to be under the influence of a psychedelic in front of another person. There was also trust that I'm capable and that there is safety there. It wasn't total terror, like there was in a dream after a previous session.

It's been a while since you wrote this but I still wanted to say I read it and again I'm amazed by your experiences and your bravery to be going through this.

Quote from: SenseOrgan on February 15, 2025, 04:00:36 PMhow important it is for the inner child to have a witness to his pain. It's incredibly validating

:yeahthat: I've been working on that too.
and

Quote from: SenseOrgan on February 15, 2025, 04:00:36 PMwhatever it is that's frightening or overwhelming is less so while in connection with a safe and compassionate other.

:yeahthat:

Thank you Desert Flower. It's wonderful to not be alone with this anymore.  :hug:
**********************************************

TW/Explicit account of a therapy session

I'm not sure if I should share such detailed info about my sessions. Somehow it feels dishonest to do it in another way. And I do want to share.

I had another session. The first one via video call. This brought up my fear of being visible. Even though my previous sessions were filmed, this was more scary to me. I had even pointed a lamp right at me to get sufficient lighting for the video call. I felt really exposed, in my own bed. There's something about somebody watching me from a distance. This came up in a meditation retreat before. It recently occurred to me that it's about not getting the feedback that the relationship is okay. So a distant person who I can't get away from who is somehow connected to me. The felt sense of it is "evil eye". This is about my M alright.

Before the session I had felt the anxiety around this theme increase. "This is perfect", I thought. This is the type of dynamic which is playing out in my life all the time. I had even wondered if my T wasn't too safe for me, since this hadn't come up before. It's a bit of a paradox wanting to take unsafety within the therapeutic relationship into the safety of a therapeutic container. In order to address this in therapy, it can't be too safe and it can't be too unsafe either. It a delicate balance. Almost a dance between interests that are hostile to each other.

Anyway, I got lucky with the camera thing and brought it up right away. I wasn't expecting much to happen, because I had the impression I wasn't far enough into a non-ordinary state of consciousness. It took effort to go into my bodily sensations and emotions. Patience, my eye mask, and T's guidance did work. I started crying and just stayed with the body and the sadness. The sadness descended from my throat, to my chest, to my belly. There was a round of gagging, which seems to happen every session.

It was scary to be so vulnerable and so visible and to interact about the fear and sadness I felt. And it felt good. Safe and scary and sad. Not too overwhelming. Just right. Exactly the attachment trauma I had wanted to address in a suitable therapy for so long. T remained extremely kind, understanding and supportive.

What became clear was that I had a hard time believing she actually cared about me. That anybody could. That it was possible. That it could exist somewhere. And at the same time I knew she wasn't lying. I couldn't let it be real. Yet I really wanted it to be. There was a battle going on inside me. Great ambivalence. Safety and loneliness on the one hand, uncertainty and kindness on the other. I could not let the good in.

To my surprise, my neck started tensing up again. Same thing as before, yet this time I was not as far into primary consciousness so the "taking over" wasn't as rigorous. It got really tense in one spot. Painful. Salamander like movements, circling around my axis. It was all fine. I ended up in a twisted position with an extremely tense neck and arched back. One hand towards T, my body in the other direction. The perfect metaphor for what played out inside me.

I just kept sobbing. Certain words T said hit really hard. They were kind words. They gained a little ground in my heart.

Post session I went back to the music I had been listening to before. It was rather emotional and hit me really hard. Now I was alone again. The loneliness was exacerbated. It was difficult to bare. We were going to have a bit of a follow up in a couple of hours and I could call if needed. It was needed. But I didn't call. I couldn't make myself. This is a particularly ingrained pattern. I waited until the loneliness had subsided a bit and then I called. It was great to connect. I felt a lot lighter afterwards.

A few hours later I joined a live sound journey via zoom, which my T had invited me to. It was great. I went through some more emotional release and than just enjoyed the journey. I felt connected. Part of this live thing happening with people from across the globe joining in at the same time. It was a really good day.

SenseOrgan,

Wow. That sounds like it was a really good session. I am glad you shared with such detail. I could feel the emotions flowing. Not much in life is more beautiful than that amazing release from putting aside our thoughts and reasoning and just letting emotions flow as they want to.

To me, it's like that moment when I'm unclogging a water pipe or a drain, and I get that rejoicing, successful feeling as the clog washes away and the water flows freely.

Emotions flow. Everything flows. And your experience feels like you were able to move some energy in a really healing way.

Congratulations on the sensations of release and flow. For me, that's when therapy is at its best.

I hope the release carries you forward to the next level of healing.

Thanks for sharing this experience with us.

thanks for sharing, senseorgan.  it sounded intense, to be sure.  i'm just glad you came out of that feeling better and not overwhelmed.  honestly, it sounds like a lot, but it's always amazing to me how our entirety is wrapped up in this trauma stuff.  love and hugs :hug:

Thanks Papa Coco & sanmagic7
I love the analogy with the clogged pipe. :)  It's messy and unpleasant work, but it's really good once it's done. I forgot to mention that I get stuck in completely rigid positions too. Like my body is a statue. When it shifts into these specific movements, it's really liberating. I imagine it looks quite strange and possibly disturbing, but that's not what it feels like. Even though the tension can be painful on a physical level, the overall feeling tone is more like "finally". It just flows on it's own. It's like nothing else I've experienced before.

And yeah, sanmagic7, I too feel like my entirety is wrapped up in this trauma. That's why I'm so grateful I've finally found a way to work with a therapist on such deep levels.  :hug:

SenseOrgan,

Wow. I'd love to learn more about the rigid freezing that your body does. Saying that it is liberating makes me want to know more about it.

I've been exploring my visions of the dark void. I learned yesterday that the void is not about death and fear, but about peace and quiet and a chance for self-reflection. My body doesn't freeze like yours does, but when my therapist helped me to step into the void yesterday, I felt a similar release. For the moments I was in the dark void, I felt nothing. I had no thoughts or emotions. It was like a time to rest and just exist for a few minutes. Like I was a pre-verbal infant simply being held by a caring adult. When I came out of the void and opened my eyes to report to him my experience, (thinking it was bad that I'd dissociated), he said, "That sounds peaceful." Instantly, my perspective changed. A lifetime of fearing the void, thinking it was my death coming for me, has shifted from dark to light. I now know that it's not about death and loss, but about the absolute sense of peace and rejuvenation. That's a game-changer for me.

Now I'm curious how the dark void in me and the statue-like freezing with you are similar versus how they differ.

It's very cool. I'm glad you shared it when you did. Perfect timing for me to read that.

Cheers!

PC

I'm thinking out loud here... So much of attachment trauma is about looking at something that makes absolutely no sense and with absolutely no love to help us face it. I think looking at my biological father when I was a baby was the exact same experience as looking into a black hole. Here's a thing that could swallow me whole... once past the event horizon, there's no coming back... zero love to pull me back. All parents are Voids to babies, then Love enters and fills that space... or that's what's supposed to happen. When the Love is not there, we have no choice but to recoil and frantically search around for something to hold onto. Since there's nothing to hold onto, we shut off. Heck, we don't even realize we have arms and hands capable of holding on...

SenseOrgan, your description of your therapy session is very pertinent to me. I'm struggling (in my mind) with my feelings around my therapist and and full of fear of losing her, while also feeling strong feelings of rejection and shame. The intensity of my feelings are clearly my trauma, but it has been so very very very hard to even move a few inches beyond those feelings. I finally sent a text yesterday and scheduled an appointment by video conference Saturday morning. I'm projecting into the future, but I identify very strongly with what you described in your therapy session. Thank you very much for sharing that, it is VERY helpful.
 :hug:

Papa Coco
That sounds like a big shift! A game-changer indeed. Will you be looking forward to going into the void from now on?

There isn't much I can add about the statue thing. It's something which happened only during PSIP. Every session thus far, when we start selective inhibition (SI). Actually, I don't have to inhibit much. I just focus on my bodily sensations and emotions. At some point the autonomic nervous system takes over. It's all a bit blurry now, but I think what happens is that my body does this statue thing first. It's rigid tension which builds in this fixed position. The central spot is the back of my neck. Than that spot starts to move my head in distinct patterns and off we go. Before I know it my whole body is involved. Those movements feel liberating. It's reminiscent of finally being able to stretch after a long time in an uncomfortable position. I can't say I go to a peaceful and quiet place when this happens. The tension in my neck is painful, which isn't pleasant. I just keep focusing my attention on it. Meanwhile I'm basically just witnessing what's happening, feeling tired from the exercise that it is and being mesmerized by the process. The last two times I was fully present. It comes in waves. Between the waves nothing much is happening.

Chart
I think at this age, the sense of inside and outside is still developing. That void possibly becomes you, which must be beyond terrifying. "Nothing to hold on to" is something I've said many times when trying to convey the experience of an EF to a friend (before I even knew about EF's). Perhaps the place of love is filled with dissociation if you happen to start out life in a hostile environment. Whatever happens during those early days, it shapes our whole life.

On the positive side, it's rather hopeful we can still interact with those little ones who are still alive in us. When you add psycholytic doses of psychoactives to the therapeutic space, you have a potent healing modality to work with. There's something to popping open the hood like that, and going into the scary places, this time with a safe other. Often literally there to hold your hand. The traumatic feeling tone of what happened to us takes on a different quality when there's somebody there with you. It transforms the meaning of the scary thing itself, because the aloneness is such an integral part of it. At least in my case.

Thanks for sharing how reading my account is helpful to you. I highly value the recognition I get from reading what you share elsewhere on the forum. It's just so validating to see other people struggling with the same intense stuff. Seeing this play out in PSIP sessions with clients has also helped normalizing this for me. That's really different from reading about it or hearing somebody speaking about it afterwards. You just see a kid struggling with this impossible attachment ambivalence, only in an adult body. Just like you and I do. Big hug from kiddo to kiddo  :hug:

Gosh. It's a hard day today. I woke up early and with the usual "paralyzing tension" in my limbs. Waiting in vein for that to get a bit better so it would be easier to drag myself out of bed, I started getting really frustrated. I remember when this phenomenon started. That's decades ago now. My life has revolved around trauma one way or another. I do a lot of things right, consistently. I exercise, eat right, meditate, stay constructive and what not. I've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at it besides that. The net result of all this hard work is nothing I can enjoy or build on. It's empty treading the water like this, year after year. It takes enormous effort to not slip into a black hole. That's not an accomplishment I can look back on with any kind of satisfaction, even though it's my life's work.

I know cultivating this victim mentality isn't helping in any way. Today I've just had it with this trauma ruling my life on every level. For once, I just want to wake up as a person having an honest chance to build something up. Not even for the result itself. Simply because that feels a lot better to be working on.

This chronic sleep disorder is a significant factor in what messes me up every night. I guess part of my frustration is that I still seem to have the potential for something on better days and not at all on worse days. I never know what I'm going to get. So I can't rely on me. On better days I can see how life could be better if it would continue like that. But it never does. That makes it hard to write myself off and accept my fate. This is not a clear cut disease/condition I'm dealing with. Perhaps I'm just delusional believing I might have a chance of a better quality of life. It is much better than it was even seven years ago. And it's still rough.

Hey SenseOrgan, I'm sorry you're feeling so rough. This sounds like an EF to me. And maybe a temporary setback from all the hard work you've been doing. It's just hard sometimes. I know it's so frustrating when we're feeling this way and we're thinking nothing will ever work. But I do think it will get better. And this feeling will pass like it did before. And I believe there will be better days. But for now, maybe you could give yourself a break and take it easy? I hope you feel better soon. Sending you lots of support  :hug:  :hug:  :hug:

QuoteThe net result of all this hard work is nothing I can enjoy or build on. It's empty treading the water like this, year after year.

i can so relate, senseorgan. too many years of this, like 39.  it's wearing for sure.  i hope you can just hang in there - i think it's really positive that things are better after 7 years, tho, that you can recognize that.  it lends hope for the future, no?

all i can say is keep up the good work. love and hugs :hug:

Desert Flower, sanmagic7
Thank you guys! It's so good to have your support. Something good came out of this bad day already!  :hug:
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From what I remember, the times I had tried TRE it wasn't a great success. In fact, I never incorporated it into my daily routine and forgot about it. It looks like it has gotten quite popular, so inevitably it got on my radar again. Since I'm having such a bad day and I'm so frustrated about the sleep disorder messing up my life, I decided to give it another go. I watched a video, grabbed a mat, and got to it. The first two minutes in the first holding position were doable. Nothing happened. The second position was a lot harder to hold. The trembles did start and I decided to not overdo it and go back to the easier position. That was not enough. The trembles stopped. So I pushed a bit further with the second holding position until the trembles got really going. They continued when I got to the easier position, and an even easier position. It was going on it's own.

The trembles were in my legs first, and soon the area just above my tailbone got heavily involved (I don't know the anatomical terms). Intense contractions. My back arching in response. My whole body was involved, yet the main action was in the area above the tailbone. Reminiscent of what happened during PSIP, but in a different area now.

While this was going, I spontaneously shed some tears. Wow. Pretty awesome that happened due to the exercise. I also had an insight about trust. As a kid, I definitively would have thought this was not going to work with me specifically. An odd thing to think. Because of the lack of support and a sense of safety and belonging, it felt as if life was against me. I went through it without shock absorbers. Things hit me full force. I don't trust life to turn out alright. That's a very hard conviction to combine with relaxation and joy.

The worst of that is over. My mindset changed significantly over the years. Yet not all of it. Today was a good example of this resentful mindset re-emerging. God knows how much tension from all those years is stuck in my system. It seems like a good idea to incorporate TRE into my daily routine. Somewhere before going to bed seems like a plan. I feel hints of deep relaxation now. I want more of that! If I can carry any of that into my sleep, that would be really good.

With regards to C-PTSD in general, I once told a friend I suspect a bunch of my mystery issues would clear up once I find a way to actually relax. Over time, an organism stuck in a high stress state, just can't help but fall apart in all sorts of ways. We're not made for that. The longer it takes, the more starts to give. AND VICE VERSA. There is neurological wiring involved, which makes it complicated. I do suspect at least a part is reversible. The same neurology can be regulated or dysregulated, that I experience almost daily. Dysregualtion is something else as being broken.

holding tension in the body speaks loudly to me, senseorgan.  i'm glad you were able to find some sort of relaxation in the end.  i think that's really important in getting to sleep.  those old messages about trust and safety have a difficult time leaving us, for sure.  keep going!  love and hugs :hug:

sanmagic7
Yeah, the body keeps the score, right? No sleep, no nothing. Restorative sleep would be a game changer for many here, I guess. Thus far the TRE hasn't had a noticeable effect on my sleep. I'm shifting the time of day when I do it, so I can enjoy a bit of the relaxation (I usually have no problem falling asleep). Love and hugs for you too  :hug:

A friend came back from a long journey. She told me she doesn't want to follow or talk about the news, because it stresses her out too much. Not the first friend to take this measure. It got me thinking it would be good for me too, since the breakneck speed of horrific events on the world stage has definitely been undermining my stability. It's been downright frightening. Watching the news of the day before has long since been my breakfast companion. I know, it's horrible. Lately I feel like this sets the tone for the day, and if I'm not careful I'm digging deeper during the day in an attempt to make sense of what's happening. That usually gives me some peace of mind. Not in this case.

Even though I'm a part of this world and don't want to retrieve further into my cave (on the contrary), it seems like the right thing to do for the time being. There's something I really don't like about looking away though. I guess staying informed is part of my survival strategy. That's been coming at a high price lately. It has been affecting my mental health big time.

I started not watching the news in the morning (or at all) today. It's disconcerting how uneasy I am about it. I've noticed many impulses to check the website. Apart from a survival strategy, I was clearly filling up loneliness and the emptiness of a life on disability before. Watching the news was only half an hour of my day, so technically it's not a big change. But routine is part of my coping mechanism. Now it seems even more of the void is blasting through.

SO, I hope you're finding some relief dealing with the void. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be connected to the outside world.

Like you, I am appalled at what is happening in the world, and the lies, gaslighting, and corruption going along with it that a lot of people are seeming to ignore. I watched a video by Sam Seder and these people are not living in reality, and facts don't seem to matter any more. But I do think there are people out there that recognize that and it's woken up something in me to fight and stand up.

Sending you support,
dolly

dollyvee
The void gets excruciating from time to time. Yesterday was such a day. A chronic sleep disorder plays a significant part in that. I took a benzo last night in the hopes to have a better day today. That payed off very well. I had a good day today, thank you.

It's very important to keep your inner fire burning. Hooray for tapping into that! It's a delicate balance with C-PTSD. In my case I need to prioritize my mental stability at the moment. It's starting to feel a bit empowering to be even more strict in how I allocate my attention. I can't afford an amygdala hijack being sneaked in via the utter madness on the news every single day now. :hug:

Hey SO,

That's great about your sleep and hope that it continues for you.

Yes, it's good to prioritize your mental health. For me, I'm thinking along the lines of Bernie Sanders btw and there's some hope in how he approaches things over the terror of the news. Perhaps there is a part of me that wants connection over disconnection after all.

Sending you support,
dolly

dollyvee
Thank you. "Connect or perish" was my motto for a while. It still kinda is :-) I hope you'll hold on to connection. We're all in this together. Also "the others".  :hug: 
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This morning I woke up just before the alarm. I did not feel like a trainwreck. Outrageous. Even more so because I had trouble falling asleep.

I recalled a part of a dream. It was a bit scary, but I was actually relating to the people I encountered. A whole bunch of cousins and their kids I'd never seen before or barely remembered. With the vaguery of a dream poured over it. The significant part of it was that I was relating to them on a human to human level, despite it being a bit scary. Normally, I relate to a lot of what I encounter in my dreams (if I remember anything at all) strictly as a threat. Even though I don't often end up in mortal danger in my sleep very often anymore, threat is persistent.

It's fascinating to see my new therapy starting to manifest in my dreams. In a positive way this time. It's very scary for me to relate under the influence of psychedelics and to be so exposed and vulnerable while in primary consciousness. The vital part is that it happens in a safe, relational container though. It's great to see I'm slowly internalizing a bit of that.

I'm in ketosis for close to two weeks. I mainly started it because of a potential autoimmune disorder that was flaring up. I remember it cleared up after seven months in ketosis, years ago. In addition, I was hoping to get some mental stability, as I recall from previous times.

I'm not disappointed on both fronts. I'm pretty far from emotionally stable. Multiple reasons. And yet I clearly experience this quiet of some sorts. I had forgotten how it feels to be in ketosis. This is very welcome. What I did not consider this time, was to get more energy. I think my mitochondria are more happy now. It was surprising to notice I could continue functioning, even after a really bad night. What really surprised me, is that I spontaneously decided to take on a project that I had no energy for in the past year or so. Very physical. Hours of digging and such. I finished it in a day.

This keto part is as wonderful as it is sad. I have spent an ungodly amount of time looking into health in the broadest sense of the word. The topic is insanely complex and nuanced. I do not believe keto is the be-all and end-all answer, nor do I want to commit to it long term.

C-PTSD, and in particular the sleep component, is what's been messing everything up. It's been an important driver behind my despair that no single doctor, book, podcast, lecture, or article from whatever sleep expert was ever about what I deal with. It looks like that just changed. I have discovered a book which I think I've been waiting for. I don't expect any easy solutions, if any at all. Right of the bat, it's just a much deeper and comprehensive take on this multifaceted beast of a challenge. It looks at the interplay between trauma and sleep from an angle I haven't come across before. It is written for therapists and it's a bit academic, so not everyone's cup of tea I guess. If anyone's interested, see here (https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=16630.0).

SO, i'm w/ you and dolly on the news situation.  like you, it feels important to be connected, but i get no peace of mind (in fact, i think i lose a piece of mind!) in checking the news, mainly because instead of making sense of what i read, there's more insanity piled on top.  sooo . . . a day at a time, i guess, and we do what we can.

i'm glad you're beginning to see some therapeutic results.  keep up the good work.  and i empathize about the sleep problems.  they suck!  love and hugs :hug: