Hi
I was and still am looking forward to working with. Walkers book
However, I'm finding it depressing and judgemental ...
His use of personality disorder labelling is triggering me -
( I can't bare the idea of being personality disordered ( as in psychiatric label
I'm finding there is a lot of 'psychology in comparison to the recovery tools
Having said that I've only looked through it briefly twice and tonight read the chapter on outer critic
Any experiences with this book greatly appreciated
I'm having trouble ...
I found Walker's book valuable despite its triggering effect. He seems aware of just how painful it can be, as he's been down the road himself. But at least he outlines a framework from which to figure some things out.
Some of the book reads a little flat, but I think he tried a bit too hard to please both a general readership and the therapist community at ease with all the pscyh terminology. It would be better if he'd focused on the general reader, IMO.
The first time with the book I just lurched along, a few pages here and there was all I could absorb for a while. Once I'd made it through, I was wishing he'd indexed it, so it would be easier to refer back to the mountain of information he provides.
My preference is to stay away from the overused terminology. Take cptsd, the obvious one. Do I consider it chronic? Yup. Traumatic? For sure. Stressful? Spot on. But Disorder is, well, hard to swallow.
Like you, I feel a bit put off by being described as having a "disorder". It sounds demeaning, or sinister--calling it a disorder is like placing the blame back on the victim--"if only you weren't...fill in the blank". And try explaining what's going on to someone else and use the word "disorder"--on come the "poor you" stares or the knowing looks of "oh, we understand (you poor diseased schmuck)."
Personally, I just kind of read past the "D"; it's bad enough without a word that defines you as something or somebody less than worthy because of the "disorder" tag. Mental health professionals like to have handy descriptive words, but it seems pretty established, unfortunately.
I did find his analysis of the 4f types very strong--I was able to quickly decipher my "type" (freeze). His strong suit is definitely the descriptions of the symptoms. And really, just how awful it is--he doesn't fall into the common trap of self-help authors who promise more than they can deliver. The role of grief and anger aren't glossed over like many do so as to stay on the "positive" track, whatever that's supposed to be.
I had a slight prob with the examples from his practice with clients. I have the same reaction to similar books that delve into the example mode--it makes me a bit nervous to read these details, even when I surmise he got permission from the people involved to use their stories.
I got lost in some of his recovery tips, likely due to my fierce resistance to step-by-step techniques to the promised land. On the other hand, I know some value that sort of thing, and it has its place as we seek to find a way towards recovery.
That said, I still found it provided a good overview of a neglected subject, written by someone who also touches on how the issues affected his own life. Just knowing that I found encouraging. It could probably stand an update, but his website and articles seem to serve as good stand-alone pieces of the puzzle. And the book could definitely be more user-friendly with a usable index.
As you say, Boatsetsailrose, it's uncomfortable in places, dense in others; but I think it's a good intro to navigating the territory. It probably serves best as a pointer towards the hope we desperately seek. There are now some other books that cover the same ground, but Walker's take still provides a decent foundation for trying to get a grip on the basics.
Hi Boatsetsailrose,
I have read PW's book as well. While it was validating in some ways, it triggered me as well. I know he is talking from real life experience but he does refer to PD many times and it makes you feel more like there is something wrong with you rather than your abusers at times. He also does not give you much hope that you will ever not be CPTSD. The best you can hope for is to learn to manage and reduce its effects but it will always be there.
I recommend reading material by John Briere and Christine Courtios. There are also some videos of them speaking on line. They both have a much more humanistic approach to trauma. It can be triggering at times because it will hit close to home but it explains alot and does not make you feel PD. Their books have helped me over the last week.
DaisyMae :hug:
Woods gnome daisymae
Thank u for your understanding and own experiences
I woke this morning and found them a relief to listen to
In hindsight I placed great expectation on 'the book' and its v helpful to read how it's been for you and ways to look at it ..
Yes, I'm finding I read a bit and am asking myself 'am I this, am I that ( whatever psych label he has used... It's a relief to hear '
Quote
'stay away from the over used terminology'
Yes the 4f is scaring me but I can see how it's useful - I think also is to remember some of this stuff the 'normal' person has too ... I mean we all
Have 'stuff right
But yes it is good to have material to work with after all
The things we experience do make our inner world complex -
And when I meet others in the world who are struggling and don't have awareness and tools it makes me appreciate what I have in my world
Thank u daisy Mae for the links
Woodsgnome you write very well
Hey maybe we could write a book !! :) :wave:
I am glad this thread is here now and I have a place to go with it
I don't think reading p walker b4 sleep is a good idea... My dream world consisted of me going loopy in my dream and then being chased ...
I'm away on holiday soon .. Pete you'll have to stay at home :blink: !!
All best wishes
Thank u for being here
Alas--I too had a dream after poking around Walker's book last night. And I think it helped me realize something about the book. So I'll try and describe it in that context.
In the dream, I was stranded on a one-lane wilderness road in spring snow/slush. For some reason, I could only back the vehicle I was in to try and get out. It was a long, treacherous slog, and at a peak in the road, I took a breather, and looked down the other side. There the snow had melted entirely, and while the rickety road was still full of potholes, I was able to turn around, and head down to the main highway with comparative ease. Which to me illustrates something I think needs to be said about Walker's book.
Any book can be diced and sliced, analyzed (ironic for psych-based books), and gone over with a fine comb.
But in any book, there's almost always something that stands out for certain readers. While I touched on some stuff in my earlier observation, I think when I boil his book down, what touched me was pretty simple.
In discussing his "4f theory" one expects to feel "oh no, here comes the story of what's wrong with me". But he also points out the strengths and good characteristics that each "f-type" can draw on. I felt better knowing that perspective, of "what's right" with me, too. Sure, there's a deep valley of despair, but there's also a beautiful view from the mountaintop.
So just that take made it worthwhile for me. Kinda simple, in the end--there's sunshine back of the clouds.
Quote from: DaisyMae on August 09, 2015, 11:35:39 PM
I recommend reading material by John Briere and Christine Courtios. There are also some videos of them speaking on line. They both have a much more humanistic approach to trauma. It can be triggering at times because it will hit close to home but it explains alot and does not make you feel PD. Their books have helped me over the last week.
Thanks for sharing this. I've just watched the vid on
Therapy for War-Related Trauma and especially the section on
Expect pre-war trauma exposure and significant current comorbidity has hit home.
I'm not a combat veteran, but was exposed as a civilian to combat operations (aerial) more then I bargained for (that's an understatement: I never bargained for anything like it, I now realize). I realize now that even going near to a volatile region in the first place without giving it much 'thought' might well have to do with pre-existing PTSD: "What could go wrong?". I've suffered plenty of bodily harm and survived, so "what's the big deal?" Subconsciously, I gather. I did anything to stay out of harms way. Which largely boiled down to "stay put and hope for the best", I must admit. (both with the original trauma as when the bombs fell around me.)
Thanks again! :thumbup:
Hi BoatsetsailRose :wave:
I tried to respond to this twice before and deleted what I wrote :doh:
But since then I read more of the book. I get triggered when he talks about triggers. I get quite overwhelmed in fact. Maybe it makes me feel out of control since I don't know when I'm in EFs for the most part. This is new to me.
But I relate to the stigma of being labeled with a personality disorder...I don't like that.
As Woodsgnome points out, as did my therapist, the book is written for everyone to understand, survivors to psychiatrists to general public (which is good in my case because I can make my boyfriend read it :yes: )
Overall, I find the book really useful and helpful. Although I also get quite triggered and overwhelmed..
Hope it gets easier...
:hug:
I was excited to find a book that finally spoke to my experience and so I got really excited and read through it too quickly and got overwhelmed. :stars:
Pete Walker's book gets so much praise on this site (and rightly so, in my opinion) that I have wondered if it could feel invalidating to visitors who might have problems with it for one reason or another. I am glad there is room for critical discussion. :thumbup:
I also relate to those who dislike the "disorder" language in general.
You know, I've read this post a couple of times. I like the book and don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about the psychological terminology or the idea that the word disorder may have a negative impact on how I feel about myself.
I did a little research on the concept of the term disorder as it is used in mental health field and found an article - posting a link below.
Here's a quote I found useful concerning this topic:
"Although both normal and disordered conditions may warrant treatment, and although psychiatry arguably has other functions beyond the treatment of disorder, still there exists widespread concern that spurious attributions of disorder may be biasing prognosis and treatment selection, creating stigma, and even interfering with normal healing processes. However, no consensus exists on the meaning of "mental disorder". http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174594/
My T talked with me about PTSD (minus the complex) a few months ago and I didn't think much about it and maybe that's why the conversation hasn't gone much further but now I know, through info. on this site, that I do have cptsd.
Do I mind the label of having a "disorder"? No. If the diagnosis went further...say BP or NPD or...whatever, I think I would see it as a way for the mental health community to do their job - we have labels for everything.
For myself, I'm trying to look at the issues I have and the progress that I can make through various modalities; "interfering with normal healing processes" to me, is a matter of whether or not I consider a label important to my healing.
I know I'm outside the majority thinking here; I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I think my exposure to 12 step programs (taking responsibility for my own thoughts/actions) and the fact that I had 2 very opinionated parents helps me right along the path of sounding preachy when expressing myself...I certainly don't intend that. I'm just trying to present another viewpoint.
I give thanks for each and every one of you today!
Thank u everyone for sharing
Thanks life craft
Yes I do understand where u are coming from
I read narcissistic in the pw book and freaked out - I personally would be mortified to be labelled with a pd - my mother fits bpd ( ha that's my label ! Um ...
I'm a psyc nurse so have had exposure to lot of info and people and being referred to as pd type in any form presses a massive button for me -
Even in the AA big book when it takes about personality types i tense with uncomfortableness ...
I was massively releaved to fit cptsd though - that label has helped me thus far
I don't mean to invalidate anyone's experience with Peter Walker's book, however, I think he is pointing out that many people who have been labeled with various diagnoses, including personality disorders, may in fact be suffering from trauma and NOT from personality disorders or simple depression or simple anxiety or whatever. I see the term CPTSD as simply a way to communicate an array of issues instead of having to explain all the aspects of suffering prolonged abuse and neglect any time you want to talk about the subject. I don't think using the term dismisses anyone's individual experience nor is it meant to be worn as a label or to define anyone. Yes the book can be overwhelming at times and triggering but it also gives one hope and contains some very concrete methods for recovery (shrinking the inner critic, flashback management). I had been to many therapists before discovering Peter Walker. He is the first one who really got me and was able to put it together in a way that finally made sense. but, if the book isn't working for you, there are others. No one approach is meant for everyone. There are a lot of good resources on this site.
Just adding a few cents here: this book spoke more clearly to me than anything I can recall. Sure, it was a bit overwhelming when I first found it, and I didn't read it all at once. And not every point applies (for example, I'm all inner critic without much of an outer critic).
But this overview of CPTSD just fit. Pete Walker's personal stories even seem eerily like some of my own.
Redefining a great many difficulties as manifestations of CPTSD means identifying causes rather than focusing on symptoms. So one's anxiety or depression stems from experience and not from some intrinsic imbalance. Treatment means learning to manage or transcend an untenable situation and is less about medication or fixing "my problem."
Crystallizing this point for me was defining CPTSD (and PTSD) as an injury rather than a disorder (I gather some want to rename it PTSI). The definition means that the problem isn't somehow "in my head" but is instead outside my control.
Ultimately, I've been heartened to read Walker's assertion that CPTSD is a chronic condition, one that requires lifelong recovery. At least something I've experienced qualifies as "normal."
stillhere wrote: "I gather some want to rename it PTSI".
YES, YES, YES!!! :yeahthat:
Pass the petition (if only!)...
Besides sidestepping the shame of a "disorder" label, renaming CPTSD as an injury rather than a disorder would also focus attention on the social context -- that is, the cause for most of us.
The effort would draw attention to a major public health problem. And instead of treating victims after the fact, perhaps more effort could go toward preventing trauma in the first place.
http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/Smileys/classic/applause.gif
amen to that a hundred times, stillhere. i am definitely in the cptsi camp not the cptsd camp.
Actually the use of the word disorder didn't bother me at all. Everyone knows that PTSD is a result of trauma not a result of character. So I was fine with it. I read the entire book in less than 24hrs. Triggering? Yep. But then anything that forces you to admit that actually you have been traumatised and in a fairly major way is always confronting. I was still teetering on the brink of denial about that until I read this book. Then suddenly all the weird little pieces of my life fell into place and I can no longer put my head in the sand and pretend everything is okay. Right there someone has explained the forces at work in my life to a T and linked it to trauma.
The mind tricks us all the time, but the body does not lie. The good things that came out of this book for me were....
- Anger rages are a normal response to trauma
- Self berating didn't mean I was possessed, it's a result of a child's ego in arrested development. I didn't really consider the possession possibility...
- All my physical symptoms of life threatening fear episodes have a cause. They don't just come out of nowhere and my body isn't malfunctioning when it happens.
- Hypervigilance and paranoia didn't mean I was going crazy. It's a symptom.
- Being unable to trust humanity is normal after trauma.
- My intense feelings of anhedonia, fatigue, lethargy and helplessness all had a cause. They weren't just negative thinking I'd slipped into or picked up from other people.
- None of these problems were actually my fault and I'd done extremely well just to live with them to date.
- I now had some idea of what my struggle actually is. Instead of flailing around in the dark wondering why I had all these disconnected symptoms that no mental health professional would actually take seriously or connect to a meaningful diagnosis.
Seriously this book is great.
Quote from: EverPure on March 20, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
- Self berating didn't mean I was possessed, it's a result of a child's ego in arrested development. I didn't really consider the possession possibility...
I actually agree with everything you said but this...I need an embarrassed face. I sort of considered this a possibility. I am a Christian and no one could explain the critics to me so up until just prior to reading the book I've been struggling to label them. Mine even has a name, X. This part of the book was an enlightening moment of relief and painful washing of ignorance as I FINALLY understood and had to grieve no one else could give me a name for it. Therapists would just ignore it because it didn't fit; the same way they would ignore the emerging of my inner child. It's like all the pieces were there but it was just ignored. Finally I understand but im not sure which is worse: this or ignorance because this really hurts.
Quote from: Beloved_Unlovable on March 20, 2017, 12:59:10 PM
This part of the book was an enlightening moment of relief and painful washing of ignorance as I FINALLY understood and had to grieve no one else could give me a name for it. Therapists would just ignore it because it didn't fit; the same way they would ignore the emerging of my inner child. It's like all the pieces were there but it was just ignored. Finally I understand but im not sure which is worse: this or ignorance because this really hurts.
I agree the inner critic is something many therapists miss. Or think it unimportant and unrelated. It helped me so much to see it as the core of the problem and needing to tackle it as the main priority rather than the anxiety symptoms which had been the focus of my therapy to date.