I tried a guided meditation i found on youtube - "Healing father wounds". I listened to it a first time without really wanting to go deep, so i knew all the steps that were in it and would not have unpleasant surprises during meditation. It was like this: finding a beautiful spot, sitting at a bench, meeting my father sitting at an opposite bench, looking at him, forgiving him that he could not give what he didn't have, taking the responsibility for my life and telling him he no longer was/is responsible, listening if he had something to say to me, saying something to him if i felt like it, letting go of anything i want to let go and then saying goodbye.
Well, i wasn't sure of saying i forgive; I mean: I am not sure if i can say it in a way that i really mean it, but i wanted to give it a try and see what happens. Well, when i came to the part with saying something like "I forgive you for being human and having human shortcomings" I had really violent pictures in my head of beating him and really hurting him until only his ghost remained. I realized it while it happened and thought of stopping the meditation because it was propably not intended this way, but i decided to stay with my momentary inner truth and not to change my actions, thoughts or pictures, because i wanted to respect the inner part that had this livid experience and i found it ok because it was only a meditation and not real violence.
It is quite seldom that i allow myself to be aggressive, I always feel as if aggression was a bad thing and that i cannot gain something positive from being aggressive. Most times, when i become aggressive, i dissociate and become anxious. I was quite surprised about myself later when it was over. But i felt ok, more alive, more joyful even. Certainly not what i had expected from doing this meditation, and certainly not very forgiving. I'm still not sure what to think of it. So I just write it down here in this forum.
And i am curious: what are your experiences with forgiveness and the process of forgiving, how did you start and what happened?
This is dangerous territory for me, but I'll try not to resort to harsh rant, per my tendencies; and/or try not to be wordy, also a novelty given my fear (perfectionism in action) of being misunderstood.
I know exactly what you mean with the recorded meditations...and then you get to the instruction...imagine a peaceful scene from your childhood...which quickly are crowded out by the mostly awful scenes I tried so hard to escape from then, and in memory...now.
Okay. So someone will scold me, surely--I'm not doing the meditation right if that happens. Well, excuse me; I'm just saying what happens, not if I should add that to my list of guilt feelings.
One of the bigger guilt trips these days is the cult of 'you must, at all costs, forgive at all times'. Look for me to fail that test, too; but I feel less guilty about it. Forgiveness is performance anxiety run amok. So often it seems forced, as if it's just an ordinary social norm to want to forgive. Usually the ones suggesting it just has to happen in the form of socially accepted forgiveness are the experts. I recall one psychiatrist I heard on the radio hinting that if you didn't forgive (at least in the form he preferred) well, you're just not human, then.
I'm not saying don't forgive; more along the lines of be honest about your intentions, depending on how and why you even understand the word. To me, the word itself first brings up scenes from childhood abusers wearing religious garb while they proceeded to do anything but forgive even imagined slights. How am I supposed to turn around and be gleeful at the prospect of forgiveness. Whose type? What am I missing--dignity and self-respect?
So okay, I'll also admit to feeling better about not getting stuck 'back there', as well. So what to do, without falling into the forgiveness 'have to' norm? First thing is realize I'm not in that movie anymore...I'm working on my new script that points ahead, not a return to *. Forgiveness, the very word, puts me back there. I have tried, a lot, to get over my unease over a simple word...but the old movie left an almost indelible imprint, and the forgiveness, as it's commonly understood, eludes me whenever I try.
I still know there's always someone who will 'should' me (usually a person who didn't experience that sort of abuse). One person even lays on the guilt by calling my resistance to use the word forgive as a form of what she calls 'woundology'; implying, I guess, that I must like the hurt.
Gotta end this...which is to say, I may not use the term forgiveness but I also don't think I have to. My alternative is to accept that some things happened, for whatever senseless reason I can't understand. I can know for sure that I'm not there anymore, nor are the other people involved. That gives me peace, now--in this instant, that the movie has ended. And yes, maybe/maybe not I can discern causes, figure that some people were off the rails, but bottom line is they're not here now either. Even if they were, would it truly require the full forgiveness schtick to make peace? Won't acceptance work and then go from there?
I don't know any answers, except--I get a little fired up just at the word, but thanks for letting me share the feeling.
And maybe just to, sadly, note that even a guided meditation can twist from its given intention sometimes--the speaker doesn't know all the ins/outs of what's affected the listener. And that's not a fault, just an observation; it's nobody's fault--and voila! perhaps in that sense I've just practiced an act of what is often called forgiveness? Or acceptance?...and then it goes on...?
So forgive if one feels they must. But give me some slack even if my form doesn't use the word.
Forgiveness to me just means that I've released them from any debt I ever felt they owed me, any rights I may have had for retribution, any blame for wrong turns I've taken because of the damage done to me. I recognize their humanity, and the fact that their actions toward me were because of the damage they themselves had experienced.
What it doesn't mean: that I've declared everything is fine, was fine, will be fine; that I want to have a relationship with them; that I'm not still affected by their abuse.
I feel that if I want forgiveness for the harm I've done - and I have - that I must extend it, too.
Easier said than done though. And maybe I'll always be working on it, and that's okay with me, too.
the idea of forgiveness has dogged me for quite a while. i was very involved in our church for a time, very involved in 12-step meetings, very involved with other recovering people and for the most part they were all very pro-forgiveness. most of them told me that if i didn't forgive someone, it just meant i continued to 'carry' that person in my mind.
i once had a discussion about this with a pastor's wife. i told her that when jesus was on the cross, he said 'father, forgive them, etc.'. he didn't say 'i forgive you'. that has always stuck in my mind - the idea that i could also turn the forgiveness part of this mess over to someone/something else if i didn't feel right with doing it myself.
and, that's what i've become most comfortable with - if someone else wants to forgive people for what they did to me, have at it. it's out of my hands, taken care of, and i can move on. and i don't worry or think about it anymore.
i can also go with the notion of acceptance - i can accept what happened, learn from it, and move on. and i believe all of this for what i may have done to others - if there's someone or something out there who wants to forgive me, fine. if not, fine. i'll never know, so it doesn't affect my life or how i think about myself. i am a very spiritual person, but i recognize that some things are beyond me, and i can allow that and live with it.
it sounds to me (off the subj. of forgiveness) like you still have quite a bit of anger inside toward your dad. i don't know how forgiveness could truly be a viable choice until that anger is cleared up. but, the fact that you felt better for having that mental picture, even tho it was very aggressive, seems like it was a positive step forward. i'm really glad you let yourself just be with it. i'm not normally aggressive, either, but my bed has taken a beating more than once while i've been working on anger towards someone!
kudos to you for your courage to follow that meditation through without stopping it. it sounds like you were being honest and truthful with yourself. i don't know how that could ever be a bad thing. onward!
One tiny addendum to my earlier rant.
Some of my chief abusers way back when were religious folk who liked to use the word forgive whenever and wherever.
And...the rest of the time, all they could spit out was how right they always were, and how wrong everyone else was. When it was pointed out, the only thing they were truly forgiving was the ignorance of those who didn't see it their way.
Huh? :stars: Forgiveness has confused me ever since.
Thank you for your responses! It's good to hear that others are struggling with forgiving, too.
Quote from: sanmagic7 on November 20, 2016, 12:13:33 AM
it sounds to me (off the subj. of forgiveness) like you still have quite a bit of anger inside toward your dad. i don't know how forgiveness could truly be a viable choice until that anger is cleared up.
I think you are quite right - with so much anger inside, i do not really forgive. Well, trying to speak the words and meaning them has shown me how much hurt and anger is there, and i could even allow myself being angry. So even if it doesn't meet the orignial intention of the meditation, it has helped me and was good for me; I'm glad I tried.
I repeated the whole meditation twice today, and i still get mad and it still is okay for me. Something interesting happened: there is a part in the meditation where i am instructed to just look at my father and notice how he looks - dress, face, expression etc. I find that when repeating the meditation i become increasingly capable of looking at him. I still get mad, or reproachful, or violent, but i am able to look at him. Which is very empowering for me. Strange, all of this.
I try to understand what's happening. Not being overwhelmed by old pain, but becoming able to feel it and address it and speak about it is a good thing. The first time was quite overwhelming.
Quote from: woodsgnome on November 19, 2016, 11:17:35 PM
[...]
I still know there's always someone who will 'should' me (usually a person who didn't experience that sort of abuse). One person even lays on the guilt by calling my resistance to use the word forgive as a form of what she calls 'woundology'; implying, I guess, that I must like the hurt.
[...]
And maybe just to, sadly, note that even a guided meditation can twist from its given intention sometimes--the speaker doesn't know all the ins/outs of what's affected the listener. And that's not a fault, just an observation; it's nobody's fault--and voila! perhaps in that sense I've just practiced an act of what is often called forgiveness? Or acceptance?...and then it goes on...?
Feel free to rant and be my guest! It's heartwarming to hear you! So good to hear that the very word "forgiveness" is used as pressure and "should" and that it is a part of freedom and respect for myself not to "should" but to wait if and when i really want to forgive. And i don't have to...
It's so good not being alone with this whole uncertainty - what do i feel, what should i feel, am i allowed to feel this or that, is it good for me, blah bleh. I'm happy to be a bit okay with me feeling what i feel and appreciate very much the possibility to rant here. Thank you! :wave:
I almost didn't read this thread because the subject was forgiveness, if that says anything. For me I am not ready to even consider it. I know I have yet to turn my anger outward and right now the only person I desire to forgive is myself.
So I went to another group and probably my last time. There was talk of forgiveness from one person and she said that she forgives, she knows those who hurt her are human, she has compassion, and knows that they went through something. So she forgives. My thought was forget that, I don't care what happened to them, there is no excuse. I went through something and I never hurt my children. I too am so sick of hearing from just about every possible outlet that a person must forgive. I think perhaps there is a way to release without forgiveness, I don't know. I understand forgiveness conceptualized as more of understanding, but I don't care about that either.
Maybe someday I will feel differently, but no time soon.
I've been thinking about this thread, a lot.
I've come to the conclusion I feel disconnected from the pain of my past. I know there's anger - at least, I'm told there must be - under the surface that needs to be dealt with. But I just can't grab hold of it long enough to wrestle with it.
I'm hoping that comes soon. I've been trying on my own and it's not happening, so maybe a new therapist will help.
I turn all my anger inwards. I have trouble feeling it at anyone but me. I know I do feel it towards others, but i think it is too scary to process and feel. I express anger in a host of negative coping skills. Each time I think I've gone to far, I find something else.
I don't think there is any necessity to forgive. I also think some things are unforgivable.
Plus, what do we mean by 'forgive' when people who have done so much harm have never truly admitted doing harm or tried to make amends? If it is about getting past anger in ourselves, surely we have to go through it first. There are things I've forgiven, but according to my own feelings and time-line, not to make other people more comfortable, and assist with their denial.
Demands for forgiveness just sound like "shut up" to me.
Well said, radical!
This is an awesome, thought provoking thread. Thanks for starting it, 2Spirits. :wave:
I totally agree with Dee, in my life I don't see how I could even contemplate in "forgiveness " there is just no way! I also have been lucky enough to have 2 children and brought them up to be safe and happy with as much love as I could possibly give them, i cannot accept yet, the life I was given by my so called 'family ' which have left me with many issues today that I still can't see the light at the end of the tunnel with. I firstly need to start trying to love myself which feels impossible and then hope that one day my life will start to be straight forward and 'normal ' , but forgiveness will never come into this.
Oh forgiveness... what a loaded topic!
Since religion has already been mentioned I want to try to offer the Christian/biblical teaching on forgiveness without the manipulations of a 12 step program or abusive leader. Please don't read this as me being preachy, I just want to represent something that gets so often distorted.
A lot of well meaning people in the church with an entirely wrong understanding of forgiveness have done A LOT of harm to hurting people by pushing forgiveness at all costs. Then there are those who would use your faith against you and tell you to forgive as a way to not take responsibility for their own reprehensible behavior. Neither of these things are ok!!! And when we are able, we should stand up for true forgiveness and not accept these counterfeits.
It can be helpful to think of forgiveness in "legal" terms.
There have to be 2 parties involved. I can't forgive someone from the peace of my own bedroom... forgiveness requires both parties.
Forgiveness also requires repentance (an apology, acknowledging that wrong has been done and trust has been broken, with a sincere intent to turn away from the offending behavior).
Forgiveness then says that you will not pursue the matter further: not seeking to punish or hold it over their head as leverage. The matter is openly acknowledged (none of this forgive & forget nonsense!!) and you both move on from that point.
Forgiveness acknowledges that there was damage caused to one party and that the offended party has reason to be hurt. Any continued relationship after forgiveness can be quite boundaried! The offending party now has the opportunity to prove their trustworthiness and the sincerity of their repentance from a safe distance. The offended party controls when boundaries are relaxed.
What was so remarkable about Christ was that in the cross he represents both the offended party and the offender. His sacrifice is what allows us un-boundaried access to God.
I can't forgive my abusers because they haven't acknowledged wrongdoing.
What I can do is choose to be open to the possibility of future (boundaried) reconciliation. Not hardening myself to the point that if they ever offer true repentance I'm unable to respond.
I think that a lot of people mean acceptance when they say forgiveness. I can accept that what happened actually happened and that it's in the past. And I can choose to work on the resulting issues from the harm that occurred in the past: addressing my anger, shame, emotions, etc. and seeking to live a healthier, happier life moving forward.
Hope this perspective on forgiveness is helpful to someone!
A great expounding of the topic from a Christian worldview can be found in the book:
From Forgiven to Forgiving: Learning to Forgive One Another God's Way by Jay E Adams
Another book that helped me understand forgiveness and boundaries is:
Bold Love by Dan Allender and Tremper Longman
Ok. I'm going to take a crack at this and try to share what I'm learning(emphasize learning) about forgiveness. Sorry if this gets long.
When we are kids we learn forgiveness from our parents/teachers/etc You hear a sorry and you forgive as an automatic response even if we are still angry, hurt, etc. We have to just suppress that because you hear a sorry and are to "get over it". I think that screws us all up as we grow up. We never learn that forgiveness is a process and the sorry has really nothing to do with it.
Fast forward to adult and now I'm in a situation where someone violated me on the deepest levels of being human and that trauma has completely altered who I am, how my brain works and how I associate with others. This person is never going to say sorry. They are incapable of feeling guilt, compassion, empathy needed to apologize. My brain can't comprehend forgiveness other than what I know in childhood. Well that really screws me up. I spend hours and hours reliving what happened to me. To try to cope, I try to understand why it happened to me. I still can't forgive. My brain can't comprehend saying it was okay that someone f****d me up this bad. That's what forgiveness is right? You hurt me but that's okay, right? It is a completely crushing picture that squashes out everything good. It dictates my entire life and I don't know how to make myself feel better. I'm helpless. My abuser now controls my life without more than his initial effort.
Then I hear forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. What a load of crock, I think. Still can't comprehend what forgiveness is. Then I pick up this book, "The Book of Forgiving". Suddenly I start to see another perspective of forgiveness that I did not understand and that was really empowering. I'm no expert, but I'm starting to pick up points that start to give me hope that forward is a direction.
Forgiveness gives you the power to cut the connection to your abuse/trauma and the people who inflicted it. Forgiveness is partially about acceptance of what happened. Acceptance does not mean you are okay with it. It simply means that you understand that you cannot change that it did. The who, what, where, when, why that I was replaying would not change that it happened. Tell your story as much as needed to get to this place.
Then comes the hard work. Another aspect of forgiveness is digging into the hurt left over from the trauma. What are you feeling? All of it. Anger, shame, sadness, confusion, helplessness, etc. Feel it. Acknowledge it. Understand it and how it affects who you are and your life. Shame is such a big one for me. I realized that I hold on to what he did to me, because I hate what it made me. I hated me essentially. I should have stopped it. If I had done something different. I don't respect who I am now. That is a dangerous feeling when it festers unchecked.
Eventually you hit a point that, I think I'm kind of understanding as you feel as though you can move forward without the story and the pain dictating your life. I'm not saying that you will be who you were and everything will be forgotten. It's more like finding peace with yourself and what happened.This is forgiveness, I think. Rather than suppressing or pushing aside, pains by hearing a sorry, it is instead working through a situation to the point that you are ready to let it be. It does not exonerate the perpetrator. I think they mean very little in it. It is a process meant completely for YOUR healing and your empowerment. It does not happen fast and you may have to revisit steps multiple times until you are comfortable to move forward.
Then when you reach that point, you get to decide how to proceed. You can renew the relationship or release it. If it isn't good for you, you can let it go. You have that power. You don't have to ever have any connection to that person/people ever again. If you choose to renew, it doesn't mean you have to be close and loving. You acknowledge who the person really is and you can set boundaries and dictate the kind of terms that will keep you healthy and moving forward.
The book also addressed two other types of forgiving. Forgiveness of self and asking forgiveness. Those are important in healing our cptsd I think. We often carry shame towards ourselves for what happened and guilt for how our condition hurts the relationships around us.
Now people may think I'm crazy for this. I'm not as thorough or articulate as the book was and I'm still relearning this new idea of forgiveness. It was an excellent guide though in working through it. Kind of gave me a big, girl understanding of how it is possible for people to forgive some horrible stuff. Forgiveness really is all about me. If I never saw him again, I still have the right to get to a place where I find peace in the present and turn my energy from reliving my past to working towards my future.
Hopefully that might help some people who want to explore it.
I've been trying to wrap some meaningful thoughts around the very touchy topic of forgiveness forever. A lot of my reactions are just that: re-actions. But reading through the beautiful commentaries here I've come to another realization that makes this all easier for me (but still hard; and that's alright). Simply, it's...
...forgiveness is more about being than it is about doing.
Accepting your inner strength and peace can overpower the abusers in ways more beautiful than one had imagined. Who you are now overrides who they tried to make you think you were then (victim, for instance). Even the words used won't really matter anymore ("Language is an imperfect tailor"--Rumi).
Beautiful, Woodsgnome.
Words do get in the way.
I'm going to try and be careful here, forgive me, Nicole and others who feel as you do, if some of the reactivity I feel about the subject leaks through.
First, I don't think what you are describing is forgiveness, Nicole and I think the way language has been altered on this subject is important because it means that so many people are using a word and meaning so many different things. I believe I do get where you are coming from with this. I understand the need for deep acceptance and compassion for ourselves, and for the imperfection of others - usually.
When I forgive myself, I acknowledge wrong-doing to myself, I acknowledge harm to others, to the world, or to myself. i accept that I let myself and other people down, I accept the need to change. If there is something that causes me to behave in a way that is harmful, I try to work on it. Most of all, I try to do better in the future, not by brushing it aside, which pretty much guarantees, I won't. It's not about beating myself up, it's about acknowledgement and making amends - change.
I don't need to forgive myself for harm that others have done to me, I have to understand that it was never my fault, I need to put the responsibility where it belongs, take it off my shoulders. To me, that is not forgiving myself. Using those words is counterproductive to releasing myself from responsibility that was never mine to begin with.
I do understand where you are coming from about letting go of grievances that we can do nothing about. There are some people in my life now, who have enabled and "forgiven" the latest abuser in my life for decades. I am quite close to them, but their minimisation and denial gets in the way of our ability to be close. I cringe at things they casually say, I feel humiliated by the way they see me as not credible, but "forgive" me for what I have said, which they understand as exaggerated and distorted due to my "mental illness" from past abuse. They have never even let me tell the whole story because they showed such distress with the little I did describe. In my opinion, this has led to cognitive dissonance, not just about the me, the offender, and the situation, but about their religious and philosophical beliefs about essential human goodness, and love and forgiveness being an answer in and of itself, to what they would describe as evil (though not in this case, because they can't accept someone they have trusted as having behaved in such a way).
On a good day, I feel affection and compassion for these people. I accept where they are, who they are, I feel love for their goodness and kindness. I want to let it go, - forgive and forget, for my own sake, in order to enjoy a relationship with them. i don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face. I'm not going to change them, so I have to accept them, or to walk away. So, I need to remember they are not offenders, they are people who can't accept the truth. But if I can't find a way of stopping them from foisting their "forgiveness" on me, of trying to rewrite history for their own comfort, but at my expense, the distance will remain, I will be forever licking my wounds after spending time with them. I'll be in an endless loop of forgiving them for behaviour that hurts me, that they can't acknowledge.
This has helped me, I know what I need to do about this situation, the general direction anyway, to get past this, or to walk forgive and walk away.
For me forgiveness is a very personal thing that for a while I tried to push on myself because I felt thats what good people do ... they dont hold grudges, they forgive. They try and understand, have compassion.
I wasnt clear for a long time on what forgiveness implied... did it mean reestablishing the relationship? Forgetting all that had happened? I now know that for me it has nothing to do with those things, for me it is making a decision to let go of the anger associated with the event... a sort of letting go.
But, having cycled through the grieving process from so many angles the only forgiveness I needed to give was to myself , forgiving myself for just being a child, a teenager and then a young woman who still carried the wounds of her past. For knowing only what I knew, for doing the best I could, and making decisions based on that knowledge and negative beliefs.
It was letting go of that self blame and hate, directing it towards those people who hurt me and then letting it go because holding on to it only causes more harm to me that has felt like forgiveness, a letting go.
Dont get me wrong I have felt enormous compassion for the people who have hurt me, I have even cried for their hurts, but that will never make their wrongs ok and the best I can do is to say (after a long period of being very, very angry) that I dont want their wrongdoings to bring me down anymore. I choose to let go of the hate...
Its something I still have to remind myself of, a conscious decision, particularly when Im processing stuff , but it does feel healthier to feel it, accept it then let it go.
I also struggle with forgiveness. i feel like it's a one time thing, that once i've done it i'm like promising that i'll never hurt over the incident again, which isn't true or reasonable. i'm definitely still struggling to understand what is DOES mean.
one thing that really has helped me is something that i heard from someone who also is recovering from traumas and has helped me a lot. its a quote by an unknown author, it says "keep a place in your heart for forgiveness, and when it comes, welcome it in." i love that. i don't have to forgive immediately, i can take all the time i need. but someday, i think that forgiveness will come. right now all i say is that SOMEDAY i will forgive you. i'm not ready to right now, but that doesn't mean that i never will, and it also doesn't put any deadline on it. just kind of an i will forgive you when I am ready to.
that's kinda my take on it.
Radical,
Your post touched me. It reminded me of how I feel that my family has forgiven me. It is a horrible thing to be, the forgiven one. There is always a sense that I owe them and I am less than them. This has forever distorted any view they have of me. It has colored any accomplishment that I have made. It tarnishes all of the good things in my life. It makes me undeserving of their company, they tolerate me and am nice to me, out of forgiveness. I feel for you. It is so difficult, to be the forgiven one. It is such a lonely place.
your thoughts help me a lot in refining my idea of forgiveness, what it is and what it is not.
And I find that I have to forgive myself a lot, an awful lot. When i was small, i couldn't handle what happened and so i made lots of efforts to perfect myself, to become more lovable, to be a good child. And I became angry at all those aspects of myself that caused so much trouble, that lead to ridicule and being shamed.
And all that anger is still here, alive and I beat myself up over and over again for not being good enough, lovable enough, ....
And for that I forgive myself, as good as i can. I forgive myself for not having invented a better strategy, I forgive myself for making a habit of it and i forgive myself for taking so long to realize it.
And i forgive myself, as good as I can, for being so hard on myself, for killing so much joy in my life, for the pain I caused myself.
I currently do not want to use my energy for being angry at the parents who were a part of this. I choose to use my energy for comforting an saying sorry to myself, for inventing new strategies for dealing with being not-perfect, for finding ways to reduce the inner antagonism between people-pleaser-partial-self and the needy-and-wanting-to-be-validated-partial-self. I choose to use my energy for creating and conjuring images of grown-up people that say to me: "You are doing a great job!", "You are such a dear!". And it helps, each and every thing.
Does that mean I have forgiven my parents, especially my father? I don't know, but they are not in the focus of attention right now and that in itself is a relief.
This little forgiveness meditation did me a lot of good, and i can understand from my own experience that the topic touches so many buttons that i only go near it when i am ready to be stirred up...
possible sexual triggers:
i'm still on the fence about forgiveness, even after reading all these warmly sincere posts. at this moment, i can still say with a certainty inside me that i will not forgive my ex-hub for lusting after our daughters. he had already known he was a sex addict, had been to meetings, knew the steps, and stopped going when i left because he was only going to please me. he's also an alcoholic and foodaholic, so he knows about addictions. he was also married to a therapist (me) who worked with addicts, so there was a lot of talk about addictions. he knows that unchecked, they will escalate. he had been confronted about a remark he made when our daughter was 6, it was brought up at our couples' session and the therapist told him 'that's not appropriate'. he was let off the hook (i didn't know better at the time) and he chose to keep going forward in his addictive behavior. he cheated on me nearly every night of our marriage w/ porn, although he was holier than thou about cheating with a real woman (among all the other things). such is the mindset of a misogynist narc.
i won't forgive him. and i don't believe i have anything to forgive myself about, either. i couldn't do what i didn't know to do. there is nothing to forgive. am i still mad about it? at him? o yeah! i may never find peace within me because of this. but, i don't care. i have my own creation of the universe that i hand him over to every time he comes into my head to deal with him as she will. that is how i feel justice will be done. and, as i said before, i will let the powers that be forgive him if they deem it worthwhile. he's out of my hands, out of my life, and i'm more than fine with that. but when my daughter tells me that she saw him and i think about him hugging her, my skin crawls. that will never go away, forgiveness or no forgiveness.
i agree with what was said about the differing meanings people may have about forgiveness. i think such concepts have personal meanings, like what the concept of god or the universe is. i personally think that i have to come to my own terms with all this the best way possible for me. and, i respect the same for everyone else. i really don't think there's a wrong or right way to feel about or accomplish (or not) forgiveness. i hope i'm not being overly harsh. i've heard too many 'shoulds' about this subject, and was in a stranglehold with it for a long time. breaking out has been difficult, and, since i still see 12-step people, the subject still comes up from time to time, and i have to steel myself all over again not to feel guilty if i don't forgive. ugh!
*TRIGGER WARNING *TOWARDS THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST
Hello 2 spirit thank you for your post as this is the very subject I want to share on this morning ...
Quote ' forgiving him that he could not give what he didn't have, taking the responsibility for my life and telling him he no longer was/is responsible, listening if he had something to say to me, saying something to him if i felt like it, letting go of anything i want to let go and then saying goodbye'
This really struck a cord for me
Isn't it wonderful that we are given tools to aid us to heal and grow more ...
I have worked on forgiveness with my dad through 12 step recovery .. I cut him out of my life for some years and was in deep pain.. I went back and said I was sorry for cutting him out and that I was wrong ..
this felt a natural thing to do, I felt more grown up and the child pain had lessened .. I was and am so pleased that we are now connected and have a relationship ...
It's not always easy and I do find I have to work hard at patience, tolerance and setting boundaries sometimes but my heart loves him and that over rides the difficult stuff ...
I have learnt how he was abused as a child and how he has suffered rejection from people throughout his life ..
I've learnt that he as the quote says 'he could not give what he didn't have ' taking back the responsibility for my life - my emotions and freeing him from the responsibility that I placed on him as 'you should have been xyz as a father ...
I would say that the quote 'listening if he had something to say to me ' bit , whilst valuable to hear someone it was important to me to not have any expectations around this .. because my whole life I've been waiting for acknowledgement of the damage that was caused to me and I have worked hard to lessen that need ... I may very well reach my grave with no one in my family acknowledging what happened to me and for me it is important to accept that as a reality ...
the acknowledging is the stuff that goes on in myself, the acceptance and subsequent compassion that I am starting to have for myself ...
My dad gives love and care in his own way today and when it comes my way I enjoy it ... for the many times he can't meet me ( emotionally and internally I work to accept it 'forgive him for what he does not know
Now onto my mother 'a different story '
I went back to her after years of cutting her off ... I wasn't in 12 step recovery then and went back with a suitcase of expectation and hope ... it didn't work out
I cut ties again and it has now been 8yrs of no communication... ( apart from each time I move she gets my address and sends a card maybe at Christmas
' forgiving her that she could not give what she didn't have, taking the responsibility for my life and telling her she no longer was/is responsible, listening if she had something to say to me, saying something to her if i felt like it, letting go of anything i want to let go and then saying goodbye'
Im not quite at the place to do this .. even in meditation ... but lately My heart is missing her and I have had thoughts of 'should I make contact'. This is slippy ground and I need to talk to my sponsor about it ...
The problem is 'I do hold her totally responsible for her mistreatment towards me, I was a child ,she the adult'
My life to the 43 yrs I am now have been severely affected by trauma effects and my chances of survival and Thriving affected..
There is a part of me lately that wants to face her, that wants to stop living in that fear of the chance I may see her in the street and want to run... but to face her in reality needs me to be in a certain place and I'm not sure I'm there yet
The anger and images I feel can be very powerful
TRIGGER WARNING
I have an image where I grab her throat with one hand pick her up against a wall and tell her exactly what I think about her until she can't breathe '
I want power - I want to reclaim some power - I want to be untouchable by her
Forgiveness ? Not yet ....
I've been in so many places with forgiveness through my life. for much of it I've been far too forgiving for my own safety and well-being. I feel I've really hardened, and that probably isn't a good thing.
I'm struggling with a lot of bitterness at the moment and I know that isn't a good thing either. I don't know what the answer is, but I feel that the demand to forgive (internal and external) is a further injustice.
I'll be spending the bare minimum time with family at Christmas, and won't be staying with them or relying on them for transport and I hope that helps. As the family scapegoat in a superficially friendly 'lord of the flies' situation my first priority in dealing with them is 'do no harm' and I've finally reached the place where that includes me.
Thank you :wave: for sharing your personal struggles. I am very touched.
And I have been through very up-and-down days with my ongoing meditations, which is a good thing, because before i had mostly down-only days.
Quote from: Boatsetsailrose on November 29, 2016, 09:20:01 AM
Isn't it wonderful that we are given tools to aid us to heal and grow more ...
Yes, it is really wonderful, and it's good noticing it. And I try to notice every baby step, because it helps focusing on the progress.
I am no longer trying to forgive my father. I find it counterproductive, the more i try, the more my resistance grows. This does not benefit either of us, so i changed the meditation to "I look at him, I say what I have to say, I listen, and i have the final say". And not trying to forgive leads me more to having some peace than a forgiveness for which i am not ready now.
Quote from: Boatsetsailrose on November 29, 2016, 09:20:01 AM
I have worked on forgiveness with my dad through 12 step recovery .. I cut him out of my life for some years and was in deep pain.. I went back and said I was sorry for cutting him out and that I was wrong ..
this felt a natural thing to do, I felt more grown up and the child pain had lessened .. I was and am so pleased that we are now connected and have a relationship ...
[...]
... I may very well reach my grave with no one in my family acknowledging what happened to me and for me it is important to accept that as a reality ...
the acknowledging is the stuff that goes on in myself, the acceptance and subsequent compassion that I am starting to have for myself ...
My dad gives love and care in his own way today and when it comes my way I enjoy it ... for the many times he can't meet me ( emotionally and internally I work to accept it 'forgive him for what he does not know
This is so touching and encouraging. Kudos to you for your ability to grow, heal, and be inventive for your own good.
And i can relate to what you say about your mother - yes, it is a deep need to be in control of your own safety and to be able to stick to your own truth. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging this need!
What an amazing thread!
If I could remember where I read it, I would post an article that I read recently about not forgiving someone to move on. It was well worded.
I noticed, Nicole I think it was, write that forgiveness is acceptance. Now I could have the context incorrect here, and this may have already been discussed, but my thought is acceptance can be achieved without forgiveness.
The other day I accepted that my FOO will never, ever support me in response to my earliest trauma. And it was so calming and liberating. I have not forgiven them.
Years ago I accepted the trauma had happened and was moving forward. Six years of their insensitivity to what has happened, and my early and repetetive requests to be mindful of triggers, pulling me back into the trauma... they are now the trauma.
I cannot forgive them for their lack of care. There is no point forgiving someone who will not accept they have done wrong.
I cannot ask for forgiveness because I did nothing wrong. To them that is an admission of fault and not a means to put the past in the past. I cannot submit to them. I will not forgive them either because I will kick myself when the next nasty thing comes along.
But I can accept, and gain peace from that. That peace has been the gateway to laughter. Oh how I have missed laughing. But laughter has come without forgiving.
:cheer:
Here is the article. Pertinent words:
QuoteOften, Lerner says, when her patients talk about wanting to forgive, they're actually talking about something else entirely: "Really, if I question carefully enough, what they're saying is that they just want the burden of their anger and resentment to go away," she says.
Forgiveness is Not a Binary State - Cari Romm - 11 Jan 2017
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/forgiveness-is-not-a-binary-state.html?mid=forbes
New perspective? Or agreement?
I'm really glad you've reached that place Contessa. Are there some boundaries about the subject you can enforce to keep from being hurt again?
It's good to come back to this thread. The people I was talking about who kept foisting their forgiveness on me, they didn't stop. Their need to believe their long term friend hadn't really been malicious and vicious, and as a result, pathologising and "forgiving" me in order to manage their cognitive dissonance was as toxic as * to me.
I tried to enforce boundaries over the behaviour to prevent more damage, as gently as I could. I took the offender out of the picture and tried to talk to them about needing them to treat me as an equal rather than as a 'poor thing' and to not bring the subject up again, in order to continue with the friendship. I didn't use these words, in retrospect I was probably excessively gentle considering how badly they had hurt me, betrayed my trust in the situation, and insisted on continuing in a way that was toxic to me.
One of them backed off (whatever their thoughts, they respected the boundary) the other played the victim at the very suggestion that the way she chose to behave was anything other than perfect, ie she was as defensive as *. And she kept on doing the things I asked her no to.
To my mind that was her choosing to end our friendship, and it will probably be a bit of a relief to her as well as to me. Continuing to try and convince me, get me to agree that the whole thing was an overreaction on my part, to what she insisted on describing as "a difficult communication style" of someone who abused me to the point of my becoming suicidal, and even knowing that kept on going, was outright gaslighting and a form of secondary victimisation in itself.
When this friend pushed this line far enough to provoke me to anger she was able to "prove" to herself how unstable I was, which is what she needed to believe. It was her who kept bringing the subject up. The fact is thse people have enabled this abuser for decades. I'm not the first person she has bullied out of a group they have been part of. The circumstances of what happened in my case were severe. I couldn't continue telling the story of what had happened to even get to the worst parts, because they were so distressed in hearing it. I stopped because I cared about their distress, yet they had invited me to tell them (presumably so they could mediate the 'misunderstanding'). The details weren't as forgiveable as they anticipated. What I should have done is said "this is obviously distressing you and I don't feel I can continue to talk to you about this" What I did do was to turn my attention to their distress, and this is where toxic "forgivenenss" comes in. I felt for them when they should have been focused on doing me the justice of hearing the whole story and putting their own feelings to the side, or they never should have inserted themselves into the situation in the first place.
Then, every time it happened I pushed 'reset' in my mind. I thought these are genuinely good who are doing their best, given their lack of understanding. But the reasons didn't change the fact that they were hurting me. Continuing to forgive them meant I continued to get hurt.
I wont be angry when we run into each other, I'll chat and be friendly, but I can't be their friend on the terms they set. I feel much more at peace now I'm not being gaslighted, and I've come a long way in getting over my awful feelings about the bullying since letting the friendship with these people go. I just feel sad it had to be this way.
Hi Radical.
In answer to your question, no. Never. Six years later.
Just half an hour ago I received an expletively punctuated apology from the person that inadvertantly instigated the incident, recognising their complete insensitivity. They promised to make sure it never happens again, and I believe they mean it. This has been a mere matter of days.
I could slot myself into the situation you describe easily with my FOO and other delightful fiend... Right to the proof that I am unstable...
Anyhoo, sorry to have hijacked the thread everyone. The above article is worth the read. It really hit home that I don't need to forgive to move on.
Time for a cuppa to go with my book :)
i agree with you, contessa. there are people i refuse to forgive, and it doesn't matter to me anymore. too many forgiveness lectures down the road, and most of them seemed to be in order to make me feel guilty if i didn't forgive. now i know i don't have to. yes, i can accept it is what it is or was, and keep on keepin' on. it's on them to forgive themselves, as far as i'm concerned. i have no energy to put in their direction anymore. they burned all those bridges.
Quote from: woodsgnome on November 19, 2016, 11:17:35 PMForgiveness is performance anxiety run amok.
Brilliant!
QuoteI'm working on my new script that points ahead, not a return to *. Forgiveness, the very word, puts me back there.
I used to feel that way, too. Since I've abandoned the idea -- Mother knew exactly what she was doing, and as far as I know feels something closer to triumph than to remorse or guilt -- I'm happy to put my hand up and say I believe some things are unforgivable.
The only thing that would possibly move me towards forgiveness would be if she said "sorry" to me and, more importantly, talked honestly to the siblings and extended family who swallowed her lies -- "I love Candid, but she's always been so difficult" being the main theme, so that I'm regarded as suspect wherever I turn. I don't think you can forgive while the reverberations are still clanging and causing misery.
Even if she fessed up and apologised, I still wouldn't spend time with her in company, much less alone which of course is when all the horrible things were said and done.
I'm more invested in forgiving
myself for not handling things differently at the time. For example, when she took me aside on a long-ago Christmas Day to tell me she wished I hadn't come "because you always cause so much trouble". When I replay my last family Christmas, I wish I'd said: "Please tell Dad and [my siblings] why I'm not here and won't be coming here again."
As it was, I stayed miserably on (I'd taken a cab to their place), kept my gob shut and distributed presents as normal. Cue my father, god bless him, calling me every few months to tell me "You've upset your mother" because I no longer visited them. I didn't tell him what she'd done, either. Also, a kindly aunt telling me: "Mum doesn't know what they've done." There was no "they" about it; Mother singlehandedly wrecked my self-esteem and my ability to relate normally to other people.
Oops. Glad I got that off my chest.
I
Oh my goodness Candid! That is such a horrible thing to go through. I'm sorry that you have experienced that.
It sounds like it would have been such a shock that you did what you needed to do at the time. In my opinion you did well and have no reason to forgive yourself at all, and have learned a lesson to be prepared for next time.
Do you think your father may understand if you were to explain what happened next time he voices his confusion?
My father had dementia in his last years, so I knew there would be no more phone calls. No one bothered to tell me when he died, either.
As my husband said, "Even murderers in prison are told when a family member dies." I conclude that as far as family's concerned, I'm the one who's dead.
Oh dear Candid I am so sorry. A silly question of me to ask.
That sucks. Your husband makes a good point :( If it helps you are valued as a member here. Never forget it :)
I thought I'd forgiven my brother, well at least on my Adult level. I did always realise that my ICs hadn't... He had apologised twice, believably, including one time in front of his wife but last summer when I saw FOO again for the first time in four years, the whole verbal/emotional rigmarole that I knew all my childhood, teenage years and on into early adulthood reared its ugly head. Now I realise while writing this that I'd fallen into my own old trap. I kept thinking I'd forgiven my parents too, usually because the situation had improved for a while, like when I lived with my grandparents for a year as a teenager. It was almost as if I 'forgave' out of gratitude. Which is obviously wrong.
I read a lot on here yesterday before signing up today. What struck me in lots of the posts is: you seem accepting of each other. I didn't read anything along the lines of: "How dumb are you??" I'm almost ready to believe the same standard of behaviour will apply to my post too. I hope so. Because I've just realised my mistaken thinking about forgiveness.
Quote...you seem accepting of each other. I didn't read anything along the lines of: "How dumb are you??" I'm almost ready to believe the same standard of behaviour will apply to my post too. I hope so. Because I've just realised my mistaken thinking about forgiveness.
The same standard WILL apply to your posts! We are here to listen and help you find your voice as you navigate the CPTSD waters; and there are more than a couple of us here who have a different view of forgiveness than society's. Thanks for joining!
blueberry, i echo 3roses' thoughts. this is the most accepting place i've ever known, and that includes many and varying types of support groups i've belonged to in real life. very caring and generous people. i hope you find that out for you, too.
Hi Blueberry!
You have come to the right place for care and compassion. This forum has been invaluable not only to my personal recovery, but life is so much better and easier to deal with because of the friend's i've made here.
Welcome, and see you round the forum :)
Contessa