Out of the Storm

Hi Everybody.

I am still really reticent about starting a new thread, but felt that I should take the plunge!

I have had two sessions with an EMDR therapist, mainly focused on preparing for the actual treatment.  Yesterday it was all about breathing techniques and associated methods of coping with the actual treatment.  I actually feel a bit calmer already and quite hopeful.

Previously,  I have only had a course of CBT which was helpful but didn't really get to the core of why I feel so awful about myself, namely my abuse from entitled, narcissistic parents which I believe started from the day I was born.

Despite the therapists' reassurance that there is no judgement and no right or wrong way to "do" the treatment,  I still feel very anxious ; feel like I am being overly dramatic in seeking out this treatment ; undeserving ; that she already doesn't like me!  And so on.

I realise that these feelings are based on the negative messages about myself that I received from my parents,  and that the treatment is to process this and "leave it behind".  But that doesn't get rid of the anxiety.  I can hear my nm saying "don't be so silly!"  with regards to my being traumatised!

I sort of believe that this is my last hope of some relief of the pain and sadness I have had for as long as I can remember.  But I do have hope and would like to share some thoughts on the process, if that's OK with all of you.

Any advice,  ideas, reassurance or anything gratefully received!!

Libby

Hi Libby,
I really think it's great that you've opened a thread to talk about your experience of starting EMDR, and I would like to wish you the best with this - and I hope very much that you will have lots of benefit from it.  I can completely understand your reticence and also your doubts about things - I have those things all the time, and it's horrible what the legacies of our past experiences leave us with, but I think it's good that you feel some hope and know that I and many others here will be standing with you  :grouphug: and your therapist sounds really good, reminding you that there is "no judgement and no right or wrong way to "do" the treatment" - glad you're feeing a bit calmer already - that sounds like a positive start.

:hug: to you Libby.

Hope  :)

Hi Libby, I've been having emdr for a few months now, it's been working well for me, the best piece of advice I can give you is to just to go with it and try not to have any preconceived ideas as to what it might be like or what might come up, emdr is very different for everyone and things you might not have thought of or remembered can come through.

Emdr can affect you physically too, I often have a headache come up or pain somewhere in my body, but this too can be processed.

It's important to be completely honest with the therapist and say exactly what/how you are feeling, sometimes nothing comes up and I just sit there blankly but this is ok too.

Emotional feelings can come up too and I often have a cry through the process and it's advisable to keep going with it even if you're really upset as you will process a lot quicker.

Afterwards you can feel quite 'spacey'/sleepy so it's recommended that you don't have any plans for the rest of the day and can go home and sleep, the more you sleep the better it is as your brain still re processing. The next day you can feel a bit groggy too, but within a couple of days you should start to feel clearer in your head like something has been lifted.

Don't be surprised as well if memories of things come up that you weren't remembering, this happens a lot with me or I remember people/places that I had completely forgotten. I have psychotherapy the week after my emdr and this is to me really helpful as I always want to find the answers for everything that's happened.

If you need to know anymore then please let me know, I was so scared about the whole process but it really is fine and you are in control the whole time. Good luck.

hey, libby,

i'm an emdr therapist, and have great faith in it if it's done correctly.  so far it sounds like your t is being careful with you, setting you up to succeed by giving you such tools in preparation.  and, your t is absolutely correct - no matter what type of therapy it is, you cannot do therapy wrong.  you are the most important person in that office, you are in control, and your way of processing is what is best for you.

i don't know if your t mentioned journaling between sessions, but it is often suggested as, like eyessoblue mentioned, your brain will continue processing between sessions and you might remember things you hadn't thought about before or get insights/realizations about something.  always good to write those down and bring them to your next session.

another thing that might happen is that you may have strange dreams between sessions.  again, this is your brain processing, bringing stuff up from your subconscious.  if you remember them, you might also want to write them down.  anything that comes up between sessions might be something to explore with your t during your next session.

as esb also mentioned, the more honest you can be, the better for you and your processing.  sometimes things that you don't believe are important could actually have a huge impact when looked at from another perspective (that of your t).  another thing to remember is that the pacing of your therapy can be determined by you.  if you begin feeling overwhelmed, it may be going too fast for you.  let your t know so that you don't get re-traumatized.   

i believe this is a brave step for you, not only in doing such trauma therapy, but also in starting a thread about it.  i'd love to hear how it continues for you.

as far as your doubts about doing this, you absolutely deserve it.  you're not being dramatic in the least.  your trauma was real as are your wounds.  i believe this is one of the best ways to go about healing them.

does your t know you are suffering from c-ptsd - multiple layered traumas and not just ptsd?  i hope that's been established.  even some trauma t's don't recognize the difference.  that's why it's also important for you to adjust the pace if you feel it's going too fast or too much is coming up for you at one time. 

best to you with this, from my heart.  i hope this is a very positive experience for you and brings you healing and relief.  if you have any other questions, you're welcome to pm me, too.  lovely warm hug to you, libby.

Thank you all so much for your supportive and helpful comments. It's really good to know that someone is on my side (thank you,  Hope), and that I have an EMDR therapist and someone who is experiencing the process that I can turn to with thoughts and questions. Your advice about what to expect was very reassuring. 

Next session,  we are going to be working on the time line of traumatic memories,  and I have started to prepare for that.

San, with regards to your question about cptsd versus ptsd, I am not sure. I am in the UK and have never really been officially diagnosed with anything. In my initial interview I said that I fully related to cptsd as I had all of the symptoms and learning about this it was the first time my life made sense. My therapist knows I had life long physical and emotional abuse, from our history taking session.  Do you advise discussing this further?  The NHS in the UK seems to avoid labels and diagnoses,  but maybe I should be clearer?

I will post about my next session and thank you all for listening and responding.  It means so much to me.

Libby.

Hi Libby, I am also in the uk and wasn't given an 'official diagnosis', but when my therapist talks about what happened to me she always refers to it as complex trauma and says I'm a classic PTSD case with additional complex needs!  The nhs at the moment don't recognise cptsd only ptsd but I believe that is about to change anytime now so hopefully they will look at the more 'complex' side of things.

Thanks eyesofblue.

I thought you might be in the UK as well.

I think your therapist's description sounds very appropriate.  I did an assessment of impact of events, or something like that,  and had a score that confirmed ptsd, but she seemed to be taking account of the life long physical and emotional abuse as well.

Did you do a timeline of traumatic events and did it go back to before you could remember and verbalise things? Can't quite get my head around this, but am taking your advice and just going with the process.

Thanks for your advice and support.  It really is appreciated.

Libby.

Hi Libby
Yes I did do a timeline and started right from my earliest abuse memory which was when I was 3. But I have a picture in my mind of being a lot younger and seeing a fight between my parents whilst I'm strapped in a high chair, I'm too young to speak but can remember the feeling of being trapped and not being able to do anything, I could only have been about 2 or 2 and a half, this is the pre verbal time ( before we can speak) and is fixed on the pictures that have been kept in your brain. I haven't actually processed this in emdr, but I started on the first one aged 3 which I managed to clear really well, I still have the memory of it but it doesn't affect me now, I can now just look back and think oh yes that happened but have no feelings or actual memories attached to it now.

libby, i think that if something gets uncomfortable for you, overwhelming, or your t  seems to be going too fast for you, that might be a time to tell her to stop, slow down, and then revisit the idea of layered/complex trauma causing you problems.  since you already mentioned it, and she knows about your history, i don't think you have to bring it up again unless there becomes a problem because of it.  for right now, just something to be aware of.

as long as she continues to go at a pace that you can tolerate, you should be fine.  and, always remember that you are the one who can slow that pace down if it goes too fast.  you do have power in the therapeutic relationship.  big hug, and i truly hope it goes well for you.

Thank you San, that's really helpful. Both you and Eyesofblue have reassured me that I have given enough of the right sort of background,  if that makes sense.

I have my next session later today and we are due to do the time line of traumatic events.  I am very interested to find out the therapist's approach to very early events. There are three events,  from when I was five weeks old to three and a half years, that I don't remember,  but of which I have been told so many times, that I am sure I was originally traumatised by them, and was sort of re-traumatised each time they were told. My nm admits quite freely that the one that happened when I was three, was the basis of her extreme dislike of me.  Her final letter to me discussed it at great length as she saw it as justification of her treatment of me. It confirmed to her that I did not think she was good enough for me. It was the last thing she said to me on our last meeting. If this was still so raw for her, over forty years later, I think this must have played out very dramatically and been very upsetting for three year old me.

I am anxious but pleased to be finally dealing with these memories.

Thank you for listening,  and for your support.  Will keep you posted!!

Libby.

Hi Libby,
Just wanted to say that I hope your session goes well today, and thinking of you.   :hug:
Hope  :)

Thank you so much, Hope.  It's so good to know I have people supporting me.

Hoping that you have a good day, too.

Libby .

EMDR session yesterday went really well.

I am always really anxious about these appointments, and yesterday,  after posting here,  I had what I can only describe as a funny turn!

After a bit, it came to me that,  probably for the first time,  I had genuinely got in touch with my inner child, when I had talked about how scared three and a half year old me must have been,  in this very significant event with my nm.

I told my therapist about it, and she reassured me it really was the start of reprocessing these very early,  traumatic memories.  She was completely accepting of my belief that the damage done to me was at a very young age and that my memories rely on the accounts I was given.  We agreed that all the other traumas stem from these early ones. When I told her of the story I was told many times of what happened when I was five weeks old, she immediately said that this played into my vomiting phobia and food issues.   Such a relief and validation.  I feel very hopeful for this treatment.

Oddly,  or not, I suspect,  by the time I got home, after a thirty minute drive, I was and still am in intense pain. Can barely move with back, abdominal and left leg and hip pain. Physical pain has always been a real feature of my cptsd but until now, it has always been right hip pain. It does make me wonder if this is linked to engaging a different part of the brain. The body really does keep the score - I feel I am living proof today!!  So, despite the pain,  I feel quite positive today,  and even quite accepting that doing what I need to do is going to be hard.

I wanted to share this with you all, because a combination of therapy and talking here seems to have brought about my first breakthrough.

Thank you for listening and helping.

Libby.

Hi Libby, really pleased it went well for you! Yes somatic symptoms are quite a normal part of emdr, I did a session on being strangled and could feel tightness around my neck, when I got home my neck was really aching and felt weird but it disappeared the next day. You can also re process physical symptoms during emdr, I quite often get a really bad headache if I'm talking about being hit on the head and my therapist tells me to go with the pain in my head and it does get processed and disappear. So don't be alarmed if anything else comes up. Just make sure you tell your therapist everything that comes up for you.

Hi Libby,
I am so pleased to hear it went well for you, and that you're experiencing a break-through - in truely making some contact with your inner child - that is really positive to hear, and I am glad it's going well.
Hope that you are able to cope with the physical pain, that has emerged - wow, the Body keeps the score, definitely something powerful.
Anyway, just wanted to second what Eyessoblue said, and say I'm also pleased to see it went well. 
Take care,
Hope  :)

hey, libby, very glad it went well for you and that you feel hopeful about it.

also very glad your t believed and validated your experience when you were so young.  so far so good.

i know that feeling of being nervous before a session.   i've always been anxious about what i might find out. 

sorry about the pain.  our bodies absorb so much of the trauma, especially the emotions around it that we can't/don't easily express.  it sounds to me that some of what's been internalized for you got stirred up, and you're feeling it in a real way.  i hope it goes away soon.  like eyessoblue mentioned, pain can also be relieved thru emdr if it continues.  there may be a message in it that you're just not aware of at the moment.

sounds like you're doing a great job overall.  yay for you, and glad you've got a good t.  double yay.  big hug.

Thank you all for your interest and support.

This has been such an interesting start to EMDR.  Thank you all for reassuring me that feeling pain is a normal response after emotions have been stirred up. I will certainly tell my therapist what I have been experiencing,  especially as four days later I am still in a lot of pain.

However,  despite the pain, I actually feel very positive in my mind.  I have had many episodes of pain of this type,  over many years.  Usually it leads into a spiral of depression,  where I feel I will never be free of it again.   But this time,  I find myself just "going with it", resting and not expecting so much of myself and beating myself up about what I should be doing and can't actually do. Self-care, at last.

Whilst being less active,  I have also gone back to reading around NPD,  and narcissistic abuse. Even though I have not read anything particularly new to me, I think I am accepting more genuinely that this is what happened to me. Perhaps now I am feeling it deeply,  rather than just knowing it intellectually.  Part of getting in touch with my inner child, maybe.  I think the validation from both therapy and your responses together have really helped me here.

My daughter is visiting for the weekend so I hope I can manage a short shopping trip to help her choose an outfit for the party she is going to this evening.  I love our shopping trips,  but it is always tinged with sadness that I could never, ever have this sort of relationship with my own mother. I am realising and accepting more and more how deeply damaged and severely damaging she truly was.

Thank you again for your support,  it is very much appreciated.

Libby.

Quote from: Libby183 on March 10, 2018, 08:35:40 AM
However,  despite the pain, I actually feel very positive in my mind.  I have had many episodes of pain of this type,  over many years.  Usually it leads into a spiral of depression,  where I feel I will never be free of it again.   But this time,  I find myself just "going with it", resting and not expecting so much of myself and beating myself up about what I should be doing and can't actually do. Self-care, at last.

Hi Libby,
It's great to hear that you've had a positive start with the treatment, and that you're doing "self-care" too - and I hope that the pain will be bearable, and that you'll enjoy your shopping trip with your daughter.  Really nice that you can have a different relationship with her, to the one you had to endure with your NM.

I just wanted to give you a gentle hug  :hug: and thank you for your support in the forum - your replies have been helpful to me, and I have read many of your posts and your replies, as I relate to the things you say.

Hope the next session goes well for you. 

Hope  :)

Hi everyone.

I felt quite overwhelmed this week,  after my first real treatment session.  But, overwhelmed in a positive way. 

Because of the pain I was in, the therapist said we should get on with the treatment,  so we dealt with the situation with my mother, when I was about three and a half.  It was an odd experience, but I really went with it. The physical pain has lessened a bit,  I have felt really tired, but actually,  calm and at peace, almost.  Obviously,  I still think about my mother and my feelings about her haven't changed, but somehow,  I feel more in control and more accepting of them. This session only dealt with one memory,  that was more a memory from mothers story of it, so I'm really hopeful of even more positive results from reprocessing later memories.

The dream aspect has been very interesting.  Two nights after this treatment,  my mother was in a dream, and we actually laughed together.  Never happened in real life, but this made the dream feel very significant.  Mother has featured less as a scary figure in my dreams since then, but father has featured heavily a couple of times. I think that this may be telling me where to focus  the process at some point.

Hope, San and Eyesofblue, thank you for your interest and support.  I know how much you are all going through at the moment,  and I just want to wish you all the best in everything you are dealing with. 

Thank you again,

Libby

Hi Libby,
I'm pleased to read that you have coped with your first real treatment session of EMDR, and it's good to hear you're feeling some 'calm' and almost 'at peace' too - also good that the physical pain has lessened a bit. 

Interesting to hear about the change in your dream content too.

Thanks for your kind and supportive words as well - and I would also thank 'you' for 'your' interest and support - it means a lot.  I am so glad to be on this journey of positive change alongside all of you.

Libby - I hope that the weekend is a good one for you, and that the next session you have will go well - and sending you a hug  :hug:

Hope  :)

libby, it sounds like your brain is processing well, and like you're beginning to feel some empowerment in regards to your mother.  i think that's a good sign.  also glad the pain is lessening.

being tired is completely normal as your brain is working really hard to reprocess memories, images, thoughts, and feelings so as not to be completely overwhelming anymore, but rather more manageable.  self care, patience, and rest are important.  if possible, eat what's healthiest for your brain, but don't beat yourself up if you reach for the junk food.  this is stressful right now.

i'm glad you're finding the calming and peaceful parts showing up.  good sign.  it's seeming like this is a good fit for you so far.  don't ever forget, tho, that if you feel it begins to go too fast, you can slow it down.  this is your process, first and foremost.

well done - nice work, libby.  warm, loving hug to you my dear.

Hi to everyone.  I have been keeping up with all of your posts and hoping that you are all OK,  but have felt a bit shell-shocked after my last therapy session a week ago.

Looking back, it seemed different from the start.  The T questioned why I still had some back pain and said it must be physical.  Then she asked me why I am still scoring myself as so anxious.  Finally,  she said that EMDR would not work while I was still so angry with my parents.  Her rationale was that an angry adult could not soothe a hurt and angry inner child.

Consequently, my task was to go away and forgive my parents.

What take do people have on this.

I know I am angry with my parents and am angry at things that remind me of them. My T told me a long story about how she had forgiven her neighbours after a boundary dispute.   Good for her, but it just reminded me of my nm telling me how perfect she is and how imperfect I am.

Since then,  I have read a lot on forgiveness.  I realise I have forgiven a lot of people a lot of things. I am never outwardly angry.  Also, I have forgiven my parents in that I understand why they behaved like they did; I have no desire to exact any revenge on them and wish them no ill will any more. I have let them go because I know I can expect nothing from them and it is kinder for all of us to be no contact. 

Unfortunately, they are still in my head, and if I think of the past,  I can't seem to help being angry.  I hoped that the therapy would help with this step. 

I have questioned whether EMDR is appropriate for narcissistic abuse treatment.  After all, the T seems to deal with very vivid images of abuse. I have some memories of being beaten,  but the damage done to me was far more subtle, far more emotional,  far more of problem with the relationship between my mother and I,  where she believed we were one person,  other than she was good and I was bad.

I just don't know if this forgiveness and letting go of anger is the next step.  I want to do this but it is a real struggle because virtually every thought I ever have is linked directly to my mother. Even the most mundane of things is influenced by her.  It's weird and I want it to stop.  I had hoped this treatment would help but,  at the moment,  I feel like I have been rejected again.

The therapist said there was no right or wrong way to do EMDR but it seems I am doing it wrong. The push-pull, double bind trauma of my relationship with my mother has reared its ugly head again.

I could really do with in-sights, advice, opinions,  anything,  because I am not sure how to move on at the moment.

Thank you for listening,

Hugs,

Libby.

Hi Libby,
I actually feel quite shocked at your T's rationale that "an angry adult could not soothe a hurt and angry inner child" - and that she then gave you a task to go away and forgive your parents.  Honestly, I think your T doesn't understand complex PTSD, to have made such a suggestion.   :hug: to you Libby. 

Also, to say that your back pain "must be physical" - that strikes me as lacking understanding too - I can completely see why you'd be feeling shell-shocked, as I feel 'shell-shocked' just reading that.  Libby, I really feel for you. 

The fact she's then gone on to give an analogy of her own about a boundary dispute - wow.  What a comparison. Really... 

I hope that my reactions aren't triggering in themselves for you Libby, as I am wanting to be helpful in my reply to you - and I can see that you've asked questions about EMDR - which I would have thought would be an appropriate therapy - providing the therapist knows about complex PTSD and can help you and guide you appropriately.  I must say that I am wondering about your T's abilities.  Warning bells are ringing for me - regarding that.  But then, maybe I over-react - so I don't know.

I don't think I can add any other thoughts at the moment, but I do think that EMDR could be a good therapy with a sensible and appropriate T - and I just wonder if you have found someone who really isn't very good, or just doesn't understand.

:hug: to you Libby - I hope you'll be ok - and be kind to yourself. 

Actually, what I do think is that it would be incredibly difficult to try to 'forgive' someone if you've not even been able to work through feelings towards them - and why should you forgive something?  Who's to say that is the way things should be.  There aren't any 'rules' to this, it's such an individual thing. 

Sorry Libby, I feel angry in reading how your T has tried to minimise your issues - that's what I think.  I could be projecting my own things though, so please don't take too much account of what I've said, only take the bits that are helpful.   :hug:
Hope  :)

Hi Libby
This is an interesting thought on emdr, I've not been told about it not working if you are still feeling angry, I was lead to believe that any issues wether it be anger sadness etc could and would be processed. My anger levels are huge with my family and that's what we have been working through with emdr, I've never forgiven or would forgive but the emdr is helping me forget and moving it to somewhere in my brain where it's not affecting me anymore, I'll always have memories but not the intensity that goes with it. I too have a lot of physical pain which my therapist believes is all the built up stress and anger in my body, this too is being processed through emdr, I must admit this doesn't work as well for me as the visual stuff but for example the other day when I was doing emdr I was going through a memory of being hit on the head, with this I developed a really bad headache whilst doing the emdr, I told my therapist and she told me to work with that feeling which I did then I followed her fingers side to side and the headache disappeared.
I would have thought you could process your anger through emdr like I have been doing, this in turn has lead to me seeing my inner child for the first time ever and this is where I had a complete emotional breakdown yesterday, it suddenly hit me how unloved and unwanted etc I was and how angry that had made me, today I don't now feel angry at all, just very child like and vulnerable and can't stop crying, apparently I'm going through some kind of grieving for the childhood I never had, I can see this all makes sense to me.
I would question your therapist a little about what she's said to you, I personally don't think that's correct, obviously no expert and I know emdr doesn't work for everyone but what she's told you I'm sure won't stop the emdr process working. Let me know how you get on.

i'm totally with hope on feeling shocked about what your t said to you.  i don't like it at all.  i also agree with eyessoblue that emdr, when done correctly by a t who has knowledge of complex trauma will work with any emotion, feeling - physical or otherwise - and thought that interferes with you having a happy, healthy life.

her example of the forgiveness of the neighbor does not compute, doesn't make sense, nor is it comparable in any way.  i've also worked with people with pain, and emdr can help with that as well, whether it's physical or emotional (altho, i'd guess that anyone with trauma in their background would probably have emotions stuck in their muscles and cells - i believe this to be true of me, and have released some thru massage at times). 

esb explained it well about reducing the impact of memories, etc. so they don't interfere anymore.  that's exactly what emdr is meant to do.  you don't necessarily forget, but it doesn't run your life anymore. 

personally, i think this t went off the rails somehow.  she's putting her own beliefs on you.  and, to my mind, just cuz you're angry with your parents doesn't mean you're angry with your inner child.  the compassionate part of adult you can do wonders for little you.  besides, i don't believe forgiveness is always the answer.  i haven't forgiven several people for what they did to me, but i've turned that part over to the powers that be to take care of 'forgiveness' as they see fit.  god, angels, higher power, whatever - forgiving some things is beyond me.

i'm mad and sorry you experienced this, libby.  it sounded like things were going well, but this just doesn't seem right to me on a lot of levels.  if you can talk to her about it, see if you can get some satisfaction from her, then fine.  if not, or if you just don't want to have any more to do with her, that's fine, too.  you don't have to stay with any t who makes you feel guilty, ashamed, less than, or wrong.

and, i will say it again - you cannot do therapy wrong, you cannot do emdr wrong.  it is not possible.  it's up to the therapist to make sure therapy is beneficial to you and for you and your life.  that's not to say that some clients are unwilling to work at their recovery - a t can't fix that, can't make them want to recover.  it's obvious to me that you do want to recover or you wouldn't be asking for feedback about this session.

grrrr!  best to you with this, libby.  whichever way you want to go with this t, i support you fully.  love and a big hug.  i'd be interested to hear how it goes, what you decide to do.  if you have any other questions, feel free to pm me whenever. 

Thank you all so much for your support. I have so much self-doubt that I just went along whole-heartedly with what she said in the therapy session.  Afterwards, I started to question her take on things. My husband and daughter backed me up. What you have said, echoed their opinions, with a lot more knowledge and experience to back it up. Thank you.

Eyesofblue - your take on it seems so right.  I wanted the therapy to help me deal with my anger so that it doesn't rule my mind. I told the T on my first session with her that I had always felt my mother's treatment of me was wrong and that I had always felt angry with her. And after all, anger is a response to hurt.

San - I think you are right about things going off the rails. She didn't seem sure where to go next and this led to me revealing some thoughts I have. One was about how I dislike being around happy families,  especially those with young children.  I admitted that it is more than envy, it is much more visceral. She asked me "were you not a happy family when your children were young?"  I answered no and explained why as it is all linked to my relationship with my parents.  I also touched on my mother's take-over of my life with regards to intimacy and fertility. Also very relevant to my overall problems.

She didn't respond in any way, as far as I can recall. I think she did some more EMDR,  but she kept talking about me being three years old in the memory,  but I was about nine. I think this could have been my fault because the initial memory was in a park, which led me to remember a later, more upsetting memory,  which happened in the same park.

Her assertion that I cannot be helped unless I give up my anger came up after all this.

I have given it a lot of thought.  I do want to heal desperately.  I am so tired of the hate, which does spill over into a hate of society - a society that reveres parents and the family so much, that we just can't have a voice. But that said, I like most people I interact with,  am very tolerant and empathise with anybody who is suffering.  Recently,  my son was being bullied at work, and I still felt sorry for the bully, because I am sure he had been bullied in the past.  He was disciplined about it, but I told my son to always treat him well as we don't know his history.

I wonder if she decided after all this, that I am more borderline PD than suffering from trauma? I certainly don't think that she sees me as particularly traumatised,  just angry. Perhaps I am, symptoms overlap a lot.

Anyway,  I have decided to go to the next session in a few days time.  I go with no preconceived ideas about how it will go. But having your feedback and having thought and read around the subject may help me deal with whatever comes up.

Thank you again for all of your advice and support.

Hope - your replies to me are never triggering. Just caring and supportive and exactly what I need to hear!

Hugs to everyone.

Libby.

 :hug: to you Libby, and hope that you are coping with the weekend - and that you are ok. 
Hope  :)

Hi Libby, I just wanted to ask you if your emdr there's properly trained and licensed to be an emdr therapist? I know there are a lot of people who claim to be but aren't, you can even look on YouTube and self administer it but this is a big no no as you need so much more in regards to therapy then just watching the lights going backwards and forwards.
As I said all emotions both physical and emotional can be processed through emdr, I know I have very tense muscles and stiffness which we have tried to process with emdr as she said it's built up trauma in my body, it hasn't worked great with this I think I probably need somatic/tre therapy which I think will help more- maybe worth you looking into as well. Hope your next session goes well, keep in touch.

Quote from: Libby183 on March 30, 2018, 09:37:50 AM
I wonder if she decided after all this, that I am more borderline PD than suffering from trauma? I certainly don't think that she sees me as particularly traumatised,  just angry. Perhaps I am, symptoms overlap a lot.

This stands out for me.

You know you can be angry and traumatised. They are not mutually exclusive. I'm sure you know that but it sounds as if your T maybe doesn't.

Being angry doesn't mean we have BPD. IME some survivors of childhood trauma tend more to anger and some more to sadness/crying. One reaction isn't intrinsically 'better' than the other. For me, it was good, healing to get into a place where I could reach the sadness and start crying. Other people need help tapping their anger. I was maybe more like you? I needed an outlet for anger, for rage at the injustices of my childhood.

What do you think? Do you feel traumatised? I've been told before I wasn't traumatised, that I was narcisstic. Strange that I've been helped so much by trauma therapy in that case  ;) (Nobody working with me now questions the trauma btw).

Also agree with Eyessoblue on checking that your T is properly trained and licensed as emdr T. Apparently in my country (not the UK), you can do a weekend course in the subject matter. That's not enough!!

I really hope that your next session goes better.  :hug: Please let us know how things develop.

i hope it goes well, libby.  please share if you care to - i'm interested in what she has to say.  i'm glad everyone's opinion matched so you can leave your self-doubt behind.  i agree with blueberry that being angry doesn't necessarily mean bpd or that you were not traumatized.  if you have trauma symptoms interfering in your life, you've had trauma in your history.

blueberry, i was trained in emdr in the states.  it starts out with a weekend training, then a year of practice with supervision, then a second weekend training where some of the more complicated and difficult traumas are explored.  accreditation goes according to whether you finished only one or both levels of training.  either way, you already have to have your credentials as a therapist in place.

however, working with complex trauma takes a lot of experience that 25 yrs. ago when i went thru both levels of training, we weren't aware of.  dissociation needs extra training and experience.  this t may be accredited, but that doesn't mean she knows what she's doing with complex trauma.

so, yes, finding a t that is sensitive to trauma as well as being a personal fit may be somewhat of an experiment.   wishing you the best with your next session, libby, and hope you get satisfaction.   sending a hug full of hope and love.

Hi to everyone.  Hope you are all doing OK.

Thank you for your replies and concern.  As always,  it means so much to me.

My Emdr therapist works for a not-for-profit organisation that has a contract with the NHS to deliver psychological therapies. It is funded by the NHS and she has mentioned that she also works for the NHS directly. So I am guessing that she is as well qualified,  with all the appropriate standards in place. 

I think this is why I have been left doubting myself so much. If she appears to think that I am not sufficiently traumatised,  then I start to question myself.  Other than the gp who persuaded me to look into more therapy,  this is pretty much the reaction I have got from the professionals I have encountered.  Basically,  just a handful of GP's and one counsellor.  I had one course of CBT several years ago, but that didn't focus on the issue of abuse, and that therapist seemed very committed to helping me.

I explained to the GP that I was concerned that I would just feel invalidated again. He was very reassuring and I believe he genuinely wanted to support me to get help for my distress.  Now, exactly what I have feared has happened. When I started the therapy,  I felt it was my last chance to put the hurt of my childhood behind me, so that I could live a fuller life. If it didn't help, I would just accept my lot in life and hide away.

I don't really understand why people are so unwilling to accept my story of abuse. My abuse was physical - my mother had an awful,  violent temper. I was beaten frequently with shoes, mainly, and isolated in my room for a day or two at a time. I admit I was angry.  But then the emotional abuse would kick in, with the silent treatment,  guilt tripping etc, until I had done enough grovelling to be tolerated again.  Never, ever forgot or forgiven. Just stored away for next time. Added to which, there was quite a lot of what people here refer to as covert SA.  It seems enough bad experiences to have left a mark on me, without even going into my mother's behaviour around the birth of my premature twins, when I really needed support.  In my last session, this came up, and the therapist immediately took me back to early childhood memories.  That confused me, but maybe that's because I don't understand the therapy.  Perhaps San or eyesofblue can explain this.

Thank you,  Blueberry,  for reassuring me that being angry doesn't mean I have a PD myself.  I don't think I do, on the whole,  but looking at my current situation and dealings with medical people in the past,  I can't help thinking that this has been their assessment of me. If I tell my story and reveal a bit of myself and how I feel,  I get the impression that they think I am attention seeking and difficult.  I don't think that I am. I rarely bother my GP surgery,  because I feel so invalidated.  Am I imagining this as I am damaged?

I felt hopeful for the therapy,  but seem to have hit the same brick wall as usual.  I am not traumatised enough; am too angry; am not likeable enough.  I just don't know.

I have thought long and hard about forgiving my parents and believe I have managed that.  However,  giving up my anger at them had led me back to depression and lack of motivation.  Is that what the therapist wanted?  Is it a step in the treatment process.  I don't know. But I do know that if I hadn't been angry at my parents,  I would have repeated their behaviour with my own children and damaged them.

I am so utterly confused but hope that tomorrow's session will bring some resolution one way or the other.

Sorry for the long post.  I have been thinking about things so much, that it is good to just get things out there. But if any of you have any thoughts or advice,  I would love to hear from you.

Love to you all from a confused Libby!

I will certainly let you know how things go tomorrow.

Hi Libby,
I have just read what you wrote, and I want to try to reply with something that might be helpful for you - but the thing is that it raises many questions and queries in my mind, in relation to my own distrust of services - and I was thinking about whether I might end up making you feel worse by sharing my thoughts - but I will try to say something - even if it's just to reflect a bit on what you wrote.

Because I've been considering the wounded parts of myself, I've acknowledged there's a protector part - that sometimes acts in a very defensive way on my behalf, and that part might even criticise the potential of helping professionals - might for example say 'they don't know what they're doing' 'be careful of them' - and then it holds me back from even approaching someone - that is the same with the GP situation - I find it hard to find someone that I feel I can trust - but that's not surprising considering the fact that for many of us, our FOO have NOT been supportive, have not been putting our interests first, they have been narcissistic and looked after themselves, and treated us badly in the process.  So for me, I carry around with me some distrust, and my 'protector' part wants to help me to not put myself in vulnerable situations - hence I haven't been as brave as you - to go and see a therapist for some EMDR.

I wondered if my reaction when you talked about it at first was because of my protector saying 'Yes, you see, that therapist doesn't know what they're doing' - and I thought that was potentially a harsh thing for me to have said - I wasn't sure about my reply.

I also wonder whether there's part of you that wonders about whether something is going to help you or not - and that maybe you then question it, and the T may have felt a bit defensive as a reply of her own.  Does that make sense?

Libby - I really want to say how brave I think you are to be going for this therapy, and maybe tomorrow, your therapist will be able to allay some of your concerns - what I think is that I'm not sure how good the UK systems are for treating people who have complex PTSD - I am sure there are pockets within the country that 'are' good - but I don't think there are many - and I just don't think that the system is set up to help us yet.  I think that this forum is pretty unique in being a place where people really 'get us' and understand us, and know what we've been through.

I'm sorry that I'm writing so much, as I feel like my reply is hijacking your thread, but I know you wanted people to reply and so I am doing so.

I think that therapists vary so much - just reading people's experiences in this forum, makes me realise how much they vary - and reading the self-help books too - they vary - but sometimes there are books that show how much a person does 'get it' - and thankfully those are more plentiful than was ever the case in the past decades.

I do think that people find it tough to 'hear' that childhoods weren't positive - and there are few therapists that can necessarily sit with that and process it themselves - it's like they should hear it, but they can't - they're not trained in trauma.  I know you said that your EMDR therapist is contracted etc, but maybe ask her directly about her qualifications - just to reassure you - but even if she's eminently qualified, it doesn't mean she 'gets it'.

Maybe your therapy will go better tomorrow - and I really hope that it does, Libby - but I hope that you won't let them put you off looking at your recovery and your well-being, because you've been through so much, and you are a lovely person, and I just wanted to give you a hug, if that's ok.  :hug:

I'm sorry to have written such a long reply.  I hope it's not triggering for you.

I hope it goes ok tomorrow, and I hope you're ok today.

Hope :)

Hi Libby. It's intersting that we both have emdr therapists with the nhs system, I feel like mine doesn't do the whole process properly, I've never really done the 'safe place' thing, never say what did I make of it what feeling do I get out of it now etc which I know they are supposed to do.
Tomorrow is my last therapy, really annoyed as I'm supposed to have 12, she was on holiday for 4 but they don't count that so I've actually 0nly had 8 so feel like I've been let down. She has told me I can go back and probably should go back as I'm now left with this inner child subject which is massive for me but know I won't get seen for about another 8 weeks so that's going to be a major struggle.

When I listen to your story I feel like your 'inner critic ' is talking to you, you say you don't feel like your abuse was bad enough etc you don't feel listened to, but any abuse is bad whether it be physical emotional and even if it just happened once it is still abuse and you have had to live with it and try and deal with it yourself, I don't think any proper professional would ever judge you on what you have had to suffer no matter how big or small it may seem to you, you have been affected and you need help!

I think maybe you just don't believe you deserve help and maybe with your recent emdr experience it's made you feel maybe I'm not right for this maybe it's because my abuse wasn't bad enough etc, but not everyone is right for emdr, and it's up to the professionals to find something that is good for 'you'.
Don't be hard on yourself, you've taken the brave step in asking for help which so many people can't/don't do, the nhs has worked well for me in some ways but not great where you only get given so many sessions then have to re do the whole procedure again I know it's down to funding and lack of therapists etc and I should be greatful for what I have had..
I too have repressed anger which comes out in the form of me drinking too much to escape that emotional angry pain I feel, again this will be something I need help with but will have to go back on that waiting list, emdr is supposed to help with anger issues and to a degree it has but talking therapy works better for me, again everyone is different.
I wish you luck for tomorrow, I'm more then happy for you to pm me if you need/want to.x

hey, libby,

this is both my personal and professional opinion on what you've written.   first, i have no idea why that t would ask you about your own childhood when you were looking for help with issues surrounding the birth of your twins.  second, any t can have 1000 accredidations and plaques on their wall, but that has nothing to do with if they're a good t or not.  from what you've been writing, yours doesn't sound like she has very much experience with or belief in complex trauma.

unfortunately, most t's still go along with the dsm manual, which still doesn't recognize c-ptsd as its own entity.  therefore, a lot of them don't believe c-ptsd exists, let alone what's needed to treat it.  if you're feeling invalidated, libby, you probably are.  you don't have to doubt yourself about things like that.

you've been thru plenty enough abuse and trauma, and if your t or other professionals don't see that, it's on them - not your fault.  too many people don't believe unless there's tangible evidence.   emotional abuse, neglect, or covert sa is often not recognized as traumatic.  it's shameful to my mind that too many of us are not able to get the help we need because of incompetence (my opinion only)  at the worst, or disbelief.  i've just fired another t for exactly that reason.

emdr is a marvelous tool to be able to reprocess traumatic memories, heighten a sense of self worth and empowerment, and lessen anything, including emotions and behaviors when used correctly.  it's not just waving fingers or lights back and forth in front of your eyes, but includes talk therapy as part of the processing.  the t needs to utilize each in a balance that serves and benefits the client.

i don't understand why your t won't help you with the issues you bring up, libby.   and, eyessoblue, the idea of a safe place is a very important component of emdr therapy.  we need to know that as we go through the minefield of traumatic experience, that there is a place in our mind we can retreat to when we're feeling overwhelmed.

i'm so very sorry and angry that neither of you are getting the help you deserve.    i've seen so much of this here in the forum, as well as experienced it in my own life, and it grinds my gears no end.  libby, i hope you get some satisfaction from talking to your t about this.  it's her job to make therapy work for you, not to make you doubt yourself or start feeling invalidated.  support and validation are fundamental in a therapeutic relationship.

you don't need to give up your anger until you're ready, if ever.  emdr could easily help make it manageable if it was used correctly and productively.   i'll be interested to hear how it goes.  sending my best to you and with you, libby.  loving warm hug full of validation and belief.  and, yes, please feel free to pm me with any questions in case i don't get to this part of the forum. 

Hi Libby, how did you get on today? I think what SanMagic writes makes a lot of sense. I had my last therapy session today, but have now been referred to a 12 week anxiety clinic on the nhs, I start that in a month, it's supposed to be a lot of Cbt work and ways of how I can handle or by pass the anxiety basically making it manageable for me, not sure if this might suit you, I didn't know such a thing existed on the nhs but I will give anything a try.
I can go back to see my counsellor once this process is over in 12 weeks if I still need to which If I'm still getting the flashbacks etc then I'll need to do that, but just pleased I've got that option and not just being left with nothing! Hope it goes well for you today.
By the way my counsellor said to me today that as a nhs patient I have every right to change therapists if I need to, what works for one might not work for all, counsellors in the nhs are very used to having this process done and don't get offended if you ask to change, so if yours isn't working out then you do have the right to do this, just thought I'd let you know.

Thank you all so much for your support and understanding.  By the time the session came along, I actually felt really calm and in control and that is, in no small part, down to all of you.  Thank you so much. You listened to me think through how I felt about the therapist and her requirement that I forgive my parents. You didn't tell me what I should do, which is definitely something I don't deal with well. After all, I have had a lifetime of that from parents,  which I know you understand.  Instead, I was able to work through my feelings. I was able to write a letter (to burn)  to my parents and it felt authentic to me.

In the session, I raised the issue of feeling that she didn't like me because of some thoughts I had revealed.  She turned this around,  and showed me this was the result of a self-limiting belief rooted in childhood adversity.  We then processed this, and it was surprising where it went, as it led to dealing with my fear of being touched and comforted; fear of intimacy and my life long phobia of people vomiting.  We started to deal with all of this, and I am back to feeling very hopeful.

I think you all suggested,  kindly, and in slightly different ways, that I was protecting myself, a bit distrustful of others, that my inner critic was telling me I was unworthy of help.  All were spot on, and you all helped me to work through this "block",  and I feel now that I can trust her. Telling her how intimacy and vomiting had become fused in my mind is something I have never told anyone,  although I think I may have alluded to it on this forum,  because I do feel safe here.

So, all in all, it was a valuable session and I think we are back on track now. I can honestly say that I wouldn't have worked through this without the support and warmth and caring that you have all shown.  I think it was a hurdle that had to be dealt with so that I could move on, and you have all helped me get over it.

I hope that things OK for all of you.

Eyesofblue, I am so pleased to hear that you have this new anxiety clinic lined up. It sounds as if it could be really useful and I am so happy that you are not going to be just left to cope alone. Hopefully,  it will help with all of the emotions that your EMDR has brought to the fore. I will be very interested to hear how it works for you.

Hugs to you all and thank you again. 

We will all speak again very soon, I know, and I look forward to it so much.

Off for a walk in the rain. My dog has been really poorly for the last week but is on the mend now. 

Take care,

Libby.

Hi Libby,
I am really glad to hear how your session went, it is really good that you've worked through some things, and I hope you enjoy your walk in the rain.  I hope your dog will be better soon too.

Your post has given me some things to think about, because I feel the inner critic can hold me back from feeling that therapy could be beneficial for me, and I think it can be easy for such thoughts to sabotage things, but I think it's good to hear how sticking with something - can be beneficial and you are finding some good things there.  I am so happy for you that it went well.   :hug: to you Libby. 

Hope  :)

Libby, I'm so pleased for you, that sounds like a huge turning point in your life, from here you can but only move forwards now, just remember you deserve all the help you can get, I had a really nice chat with my therapist yesterday and she's said that although the nhs system isn't great for mental health, you as a nhs patient will get anything that you ask for in mental health that is your entitlement so if something doesn't feel right to you then it probably isn't, don't be scared to speak up, she made that really clear yesterday to me which made me feel a lot better, I always worry how people will perceive me and put up a bit of a cold barrier which can come across like I'm being really off with people, I spoke to her about it and she said that is very normal for people affected by trauma as it's a protection mechanism we have devised for ourselves, she said she noticed it straight away with me so very slowly tried to break that barrier without it giving me anxiety and she did just that which was great it built up my trust with her very early on which is unusual for me.
Keep us posted on how you're doing. Yes I feel relieved that I've got 12 weeks at this clinic, i was so worried about being left out there with no help, I feel a lot more relaxed now and extremely greatful for the help that I have received.

both of you, libby and esb, i'm so glad for you that you were able to get some satisfaction for yourselves and feel back on track.  that's the best news of my day right now.  congrats to both of you for speaking up, for having an open mind, and for realizing some of what may have been going on for you.

and, hope, good for you for looking at this for yourself and making sense of it in your own life.   well done.

absolutely terrific.  these defenses of ours can truly be something else!  love and hugs all around.

Hi Everyone.

I just wanted to let you all know that the EMDR therapy is going really well. I am starting to really understand how it works. It has really confirmed to me how my trauma began right from, and even before birth. And we have dealt with quite a lot if central issues.

The overwhelming thing for me, at the moment, is the physical pain. Even sitting to write this is difficult.  However, since the last session,  I think I am getting to grips with the memories that may well be contributing /causing the pain.

It was odd - after the last session,  I dreamt of my three children all being together.  I dream often of my daughter but rarely of my twin sons, so to have them interacting in a dream was unusual. This led me to think of their traumatic births (the only thing they have in common!),  back through two very upsetting memories from ages 12 and 5,  to my own traumatic birth and my mother's rejection of me. I can see such parallels and each link to the parts of my body that have so much pain. Around this, there are so many other memories that have been stirred up.

It sounds a bit "manufactured" in a way, but it also seems very logical. Whilst working through this, the pain has been so bad, but I still feel hopeful that reprocessing these memories may be the key to the physical pain. I will let you know how the next session goes.

Sitting to write this has intensified the pain so I need to lie on my side for a while!

Hoping very much that you are all OK.

Take care,

Libby.

Quote from: Libby183 on April 15, 2018, 08:21:52 AM
I just wanted to let you all know that the EMDR therapy is going really well. I am starting to really understand how it works. It has really confirmed to me how my trauma began right from, and even before birth. And we have dealt with quite a lot if central issues.

Hi Libby,
It's great to know that your EMDR therapy is going really well - and that you've dealt with quite a lot of central issues.  I am really pleased for you, as I know how hard it was at the start, and also how much pain you are currently experiencing too - I really hope that you can find a comfortable way to relax and that your body will resolve itself over time, so you can be pain-free. 

Hoping that your next session also goes well.
Take care,
Hope  :)

hey, libby, i hope that pain is a result of stored emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc., and that as you continue re-processing them, the pain will diminish.  it's astonishing how much we can absorb into our bodies when we weren't allowed to let it out normally.  i truly believe that's what's happened for me.  i've been able to let a lot of pain and tears out thru massage over the years, but haven't found an emdr t to help me with it.  doing it physically is extremely painful in itself.  still, i'm better today than i was 10 yrs. ago.

i'm just glad your therapy is going better now.  that's so great to hear.  kudos to you for your courage and determination.  love and a warm hug to you, sweetie.

Hi Libby, sorry I've been away for a while but noticed your post on how well the emdr is working for you. I just wondered, do you have psychotherapy with it too? I did the 12 wks of emdr then was supposed to have 12 wks psychotherapy, but lots of other flashbacks came up so I continued with emdr for 4 wks then had 2 wks of psychotherapy and it all finished as my psychologist decided I needed help with my anxiety before she could deal with me anymore she said it's a different type of therapy that she couldn't do and has signed me up for 12 weeks of anxiety clinic which I'm on a waiting list for. I'm annoyed tho because it's the psychotherapy I really needed which because I wasn't getting the answers I wanted made me really anxious, I think if I'd just had the 12 weeks of psychotherapy then I'd be a lot further forward now, anxiety clinic maybe helpful but I previously had 8 weeks of Cbt which did nothing and I'm just hoping that this won't be a waste of time as well and will set me back again. I know these people are experts in their field but I wish they would just listen sometimes to what you actually think you need. I hope your emdr went well this week.

Hi to everyone and especially Eyesofblue, Hope and Sanmagic.

I have been reading here regularly,  but have found it hard to write - several times,  I tried and failed. So thank you all for your continuing support and interest.  It means so much. It really does.

I think that shame has stopped me from posting more. The EMDR seemed to be going well after the last blip which you all helped me through.

I really like and trust my therapist and believe that she wants to help me and wants the best for me. I think I am in a similar position to you, Eyesofblue.  I just have the EMDR but we talk through things before and after the treatment.  I am just not sure how much more this treatment can help me. And I think she feels it too! We have reprocessed some traumatic memories from really early in life. In fact,  right back to birth, via the stories I was told over and again. It's helped - I feel less angry with my parents through accepting their limitations with me. But she wants me to come up with distinct traumatic memories. Other than the type we have already processed,  my trauma was carried out by mind games, subtle looks and comments, undermining, blaming and shaming, every minute of every day. Year after year,  from birth to age 45ish. The therapy doesn't seem to accommodate this, and I am not sure she fully grasps the nature of narcissistic type abuse. So I feel stuck, and even more damaged than I thought I was before.

I still have periods of awful physical pain, which I think she thinks should have resolved by now. Consequently,  I am seeing a GP today,  at her request,  to rule  in/out any physical causes. So I feel I am back to square one,  with no answers and little hope. I have been reading around the topic so much,  desperate for answers,  but probably not doing myself much good.  Perhaps I should just accept myself as I am - a damaged person inside, but with an OK life outside. Because I am coping better with my life.

I can be pain-free and depressed, in pain but in a good mood, or depressed and in pain. There seems to be no pattern that makes any sense.  Or maybe the therapy hasn't or can't access the cause. I just don't know.  Cptsd is just so all-encompassing,  isn't it?

I am going to carry on trying. My therapist has suggested I recall memories that confirmed in me that I was weak.  I think powerless or helpless sums it up better.  It's the sort of double bind I always come up against,  though. My nm wanted me weak and powerless,  to make her feel better.  I may have had an easier time with her if I had gone along with this. So I wasn't totally weak and powerless because I fought against this and suffered more, but broke the chain of intergenerational abuse. It's such a tangled web and I am so confused!

I hope the new treatment works out for you, Eyesofblue,  but I really relate to your frustration.  It's so true that only those who go through this can truly understand.

Hugs to you all.

Libby.

Pleased to be back, and seem to have a lot of words for someone who said she didn't have any!!

Libby, you're story is so similar to me, whilst reading it I kept thinking, that's me that's me! Maybe we do get to an emdr point when the painful memories have gone but we're still left with questions and wanting answers that's certainly true for me. I too get the physical pain and like you have been advised to see my gp and ask for blood tests in case it's anything else, but I don't think it is, I think it's just part of cptsd. I really feel I'm in need of weekly counselling now which as you know on the nhs everything involves waiting lists and only so many appointments allowed. I really want to carry on with this therapist as we do connect really well together and I trust her totally but I am thinking maybe I should look privately and have someone I can see long term without having to have all these breaks and back on the list, it frustrates me so much! I too broke the chain of abuse which my therapist comments on regularly, it's clearly a huge thing in her eyes but I guess I don't really think like that! I too have this pattern that makes no sense and again I need answers but haven't really had the psychotherapy that I feel I desperately need to give me this. I hope you continue to progress, it sounds like you've worked through loads.

hey libby and esb,

as far as i'm concerned, what i've learned and practiced, is that emdr is a tool to be used under the umbrella of psychotherapy.  it is not the totality of psychotherapy, from my perspective, but can be utilized within the framework of a wholeness of therapy.  the processing part of emdr, the eye movements/bi-lateral stimulation (some clinicians use alternating sounds or tapping) is to be included in therapy as an extra means of processing traumatic events.

so, i don't understand why the idea of therapy, per se, is being seen as something separate.  you may need to talk with your t about what you're needing and have that integrated into your therapy.  i do know that some people have gone to  therapy but the t was not an emdr practitioner, so they also saw someone who did know emdr for the more traumatic bits, as an adjunct to their regular therapy.

as far as what emdr covers, it doesn't necessarily only have to be memories.  it can also include thoughts, feelings, and i've used it for pain (as have others, especially for migraines) so it can have a somatic component to it as well.  as far as what you said, libby, about not having any memories that made you feel weak, but rather helpless/powerless.  i don't know that you have specific memories along those lines, but what you said about the subtlety, the nuances, the undermining kinds of stuff going on - if you tell your t about that, they may be able to come up with a strategy for going after that kind of narc abuse.

unfortunately, like you said, not very many t's know about the cunning of narc abuse, exactly how you described it.  if you're able to educate your t a bit more about how it made you feel, that could be a target for the emdr processing.  your confusion could be a target.  your pain could be a target - i ask clients to describe their pain as far as size, shape, color, 1-10 for intensity, brightness, what the edges are like - anything that might apply to it, and then do the eye movements, noticing if there are any changes or if anything comes up.

there usually are changes, and often the pain diminishes, or some secondary reason for the pain comes to mind.  one client told me that she thought she was punishing herself for something she'd done to her sister a while back.  others get attention for their pain and are reluctant to give it up.  for others, they're holding a particularly painful emotion, situation, thought, etc. in that part of their body.  maybe they're tense because of having to be on their guard.

if there's nothing physically wrong with you, then there's something there that is causing your mind to continue to send pain signals to certain parts of your body.  that's something that can be explored with emdr processing, too.  to me, therapy is meant to be creative in that everyone's issues are different, and for different reasons.  i hope, for both your sakes, that your t's can find that creativity in order to offer you what is most beneficial.

the idea of breaking the cycle is important, but, to me, it's simply a part of the entire picture.  i don't see it as a stopping place, but a victory along the way of healing your traumas.  to be celebrated, for sure, but there's much more going on than that.   esb, i hope you get something pos. out of the anxiety clinic, but i'm with you in that there's much more to the wounding than that.

it sounds like the psych is at a loss as to how to deal with complex trauma, so shoveled you along to what made sense for her.  i don't know if i'd always go along with saying 'they're experts in their fields'.  just cuz they have a degree hardly makes them an expert.  in all my years of knowing and dealing with therapists, i've found only a handful who i'd consider an expert at therapy.  most don't venture far out of a generic realm of therapy, are content with the knowledge they already have, and can be close-minded when it comes to looking at and learning about something new.

if either of you have any questions as far as anything goes, feel free to pm me.  i may be able to give you some more specific tips on how to get closer to what you really need from the professionals you're seeing.  maybe.  i hope any of this was helpful to either or both of you.  best with all of this.  i know how frustrating it is.  i'm still without a t who knew what they were doing or what i needed, and i've been seeing therapists nearly half my life.  love and hugs to you both.

Thank you so very much, Sanmagic.

Your post was absolutely fascinating and full of ideas I need to think about.  I think you are absolutely right that I need to stress the very essence of the narcissistic abuse. It's not discreet incidents that caused my pain. Although there were some of those. It was that virtually every interaction with my mother was subtly abusive.  She just had to look at me,  or say something quite ordinary and I would feel terrible about myself.   This really is the essence of it and you have given me hope that if my therapist is open and creative enough,  we may be able to address this. I will certainly discuss this with her next time.

What you explained about emdr being a part of psychotherapy,  not a  total treatment in itself, makes much more sense. I can see how it could work as a stand alone treatment for, say,  an accident,  but I think this is where my therapist gets a bit stuck. She wants me to set aside my intellectual brain and access my emotional brain, but I can't seem to do that.  Actually, it is the talking around the subject that I find most helpful,  I think. 

Thank you again for all of the information and ideas.  Reading them makes me feel that there is still hope of finding the right sort of approach. And I really hope that eyesofblue finds the right approach as well. It certainly feels that we should keep trying,  both sufferers and therapists,  and sharing what works so that treatment becomes more effective over time.

Hugs,  Libby