My father has narcissistic personality disorder (and so does his father) and when I was growing up he was physically violent and emotionally abusive. My mother and I were in psychological terror but my brothers were spared (he liked to hate on women).
I'm almost through my stage where I mourn my lost childhood, and am almost at the beginning of redefinition. But I still have this urge to "want him to see how he's hurt me". I want him to understand what he's done to me. This is particularly difficult with people who have narcissistic personality disorder - they are delusional in nature.
So my question is - I'm quite happy not having my parents in my life. I am ok with never talking to my family again. Is it ok to do this? Is it ok to not forgive?
Quote from: anosognosia on March 13, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
So my question is - I'm quite happy not having my parents in my life. I am ok with never talking to my family again. Is it ok to do this? Is it ok to not forgive?
Wholeheartedly: Yes, it's ok!
It's about
you and what's best for
you.
I think it's important to do whatever it takes to get the feelings of 'bitterness' (for want of a better word; English is not my first language) or any other feelings that might be holding
you back from present or future progress - but I emphatically do
not believe that absolving your f of his hurtful behaviour is in any way neccessary to your own recovery.
I was raised by Narents and like you, on some level I still wish I could make them see and understand the hurt they've put me through and the impact it had and has on my life. But alas, we're truly "children of the self absorbed" and there is no way of getting through to them. So the best option is to look ahead and take the best possible care of ourselves and allow ourselves to heal.
Forgive your f inasmuch as it's neccessary for your own sake - that's all you're responsible for IMO.
I second that.
Also, even if you were to forgive your parents, that does NOT mean you'll have to be reconciled with them. Forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. If you have grounds to suspect that they'll never realize how much they're hurting you, and that they can't or won't ever change their behaviour towards you, then you have every right to say no thanks.
And even reconciliation doesn't mean a return to the old ways. Bertolt Brecht wrote an excellent poem about this. He compares a broken relationship to a torn rope. Even if you manage to mend it, it's not the rope it once was: there'll always be a knot, "and in the place where you left me, you won't find me again."
No, you don't HAVE to forgive, just as long as you are at a place where you are not eating yourself up, it is OK.
Quote from: keepfighting on March 13, 2015, 01:25:46 PM
I was raised by Narents and like you, on some level I still wish I could make them see and understand the hurt they've put me through and the impact it had and has on my life. But alas, we're truly "children of the self absorbed" and there is no way of getting through to them. So the best option is to look ahead and take the best possible care of ourselves and allow ourselves to heal.
[...]
Forgive your f inasmuch as it's neccessary for your own sake - that's all you're responsible for IMO.
Thank you! I will take you up on this suggestion. Makes me feel better to have these opinions. I'm re-reading Susan Forword's Toxic Parents book - and she jumps to how to re-engage with parents either through a letter or confrontation. I just don't know if I will ever get there. Certainly now is not the best time. But I was starting to put pressure on myself.
Thanks again everyone.
I've had the same question(s) for a long time. I also say no, forgiving an abuser is not necessary for healing. It can be a good thing but there is already so much grace and caring going on that allowed you to come this far and separate and grow. That in and of itself is highly admirable love. Forgiveness may or may not happen, but it need not happen now. Imo.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 15, 2015, 05:41:50 AM
I've had the same question(s) for a long time. I also say no, forgiving an abuser is not necessary for healing. It can be a good thing but there is already so much grace and caring going on that allowed you to come this far and separate and grow. That in and of itself is highly admirable love. Forgiveness may or may not happen, but it need not happen now. Imo.
Thank you!!! I am relieved by your words.
It's too bad that the majority of society would take the stance of "they are your PARENTS, you should be nice to them". "You will regret it when they die".
In all honesty, I'm not sure I would be devastated if they were gone. It sounds harsh, but right now I could take it or leave it. A part of me would probably be relieved too.
Quote from: anosognosia on March 15, 2015, 02:07:41 PM
It's too bad that the majority of society would take the stance of "they are your PARENTS, you should be nice to them". "You will regret it when they die".
In all honesty, I'm not sure I would be devastated if they were gone. It sounds harsh, but right now I could take it or leave it. A part of me would probably be relieved too.
I relate to this. A part of me would definitely be relieved. In fact, one of my parents is dead and it's actually a huge relief in a lot of ways. They cannot hurt me anymore and I don't regret anything. So ambivalence doesn't sound harsh to me.
So yeah, the "common wisdom" about regretting when parents die doesn't ring true for me if said parents were abusive. I wish people would stop assuming that just because THEY had parents who were okay, that everyone else does, too. This belief just heaps further stigma on top of people who have been mistreated by parents. It's gas-lighting on a societal level.
I do not have to forgive.
Quote from: anosognosia on March 15, 2015, 02:07:41 PM
It's too bad that the majority of society would take the stance of "they are your PARENTS, you should be nice to them". "You will regret it when they die".
In all honesty, I'm not sure I would be devastated if they were gone. It sounds harsh, but right now I could take it or leave it. A part of me would probably be relieved too.
I can relate - have been confronted with these kind of statements and many other judgmental ones like that myself. Somehow, it's ok in 'society's eyes' to 'divorce' toxic friends and partners, but when it comes to toxic
parents they judge
you for sticking up for yourself. :stars:
But how can you forgive a person who doesn't
ask for forgiveness? How can you be expected to forgive someone who does not even have a
concept of ever being wrong him/herself let alone owning up to it and trying to mend the hurt (s)he caused you?
I don't wish my Narents ill and I don't wish my them well, either. I just don't wish them to be a part of my life, that's all. --- And I don't even feel guilty about that. I deserve to concentrate on myself and my FOC and allow myself to heal and grow.
I don't wish my Narents ill and I don't wish my them well, either. I just don't wish them to be a part of my life, that's all. --- And I don't even feel guilty about that. I deserve to concentrate on myself and my FOC and allow myself to heal and grow.
Well said KF! :thumbup:
Well, if people want to judge us for sticking up for ourselves, I say screw that! So what? Don't need people around who do not support your recovery.
I felt relieved when my dad died, five years ago. The immediate feeling I got was that I felt relieved. And I don't feel guilty about it.
And... I've actually, well, at least partly, confronted my dad with the past. He talked with me about it and it seemed like he had changed. Well, I've felt that way before, but it was never true. It was just a display, for as long as it lasted. He never changed. I'm not saying it's the same for your parents, but that's my story anyway. It's a scary thing.
I was a few days away from death from their parental neglect, if medical help hadn't stepped in.
Quote from: anosognosia on March 28, 2015, 01:56:37 AM
I was a few days away from death from their parental neglect, if medical help hadn't stepped in.
Pete Walker in his book, The Tao of Fully Feeling, writes: ...I believe the fourth commandment should be retranslated as "Honor your father and mother if they honor you."
Quote from: Whobuddy on March 28, 2015, 01:13:09 PM
Pete Walker in his book, The Tao of Fully Feeling, writes: ...I believe the fourth commandment should be retranslated as "Honor your father and mother if they honor you."
Does anyone know where I can purchase an ebook reader version of this book? I can't seem to find it anywhere!
Thank you so very much!
Funny, I was thinking the same thing today that I need to buy the book. For me, I think it would be a good pre-quel to his book on CPTSD. I feel like I'm getting ready for the other book with the ASCA workbook and the tsao of fully feeling. I'm going to buy a paper copy but I know I've seen a kindle version on Amazon, you probably already know that thought! :0)
C, I haven't actually seen the kindle version and the hardcopy is 260$ on Amazon... let me know if you find better offers.
I think you can order it right off of Pete Walker's website. http://www.pete-walker.com/
I ordered mine through amazon but it actually came directly from Pete. Signed by him, too! :yes:
I found a hard copy in the $20 range, but the suggestion to go to his web site sounds like the best deal for you. Best of luck, sounds like we'll be reading this together :thumbup:
* no, you don't have to forgive. You can still feel compassion for the other person, knowing that their actions were also likely fuelled by some sort of abuse done to them as a child. But it doesn't mean you have to forgive their actions.
I think you can forgive, the forgetting is the hard part. I would love to be that strong to be able to forgive and forget. But I'm just human...*sigh* would love to have some super powers :) though.
Quote from: Trace on April 05, 2015, 05:05:34 PM
I think you can forgive, the forgetting is the hard part. I would love to be that strong to be able to forgive and forget. But I'm just human...*sigh* would love to have some super powers :) though.
Oh trust me I will never forget. I may have blocked a lot of it out but my limbic system and fear center will never ever forget as exemplified by my hyperarousal, high state of anxiety, etc.
As far as I know one should never forgive someone who do not say they are sorry. and then they should change their behaviour long lasting.
another word that could be used instead of forgive is to understand. does anyone here understand why their parents abused them?
my father heard voices in his head that told him to punish us as the voices told him we had done things wrong.
my father was mentally ill. and I do understand that he could not help what he did.
my mother how ever seemed to have a personality disorder. she didn't want to have any children. she wanted to become rich and married my father because of it. she said to me she didn't mind that he abused us as she wasn't abused. She just wanted to live a nice life.
my mother I will never understand. And since she had no remorse about what she did after I confronted her about it I will never forgive her.
Quote from: keepfighting on March 13, 2015, 01:25:46 PM
Quote from: anosognosia on March 13, 2015, 12:50:32 PM
So my question is - I'm quite happy not having my parents in my life. I am ok with never talking to my family again. Is it ok to do this? Is it ok to not forgive?
It's about [i
Wholeheartedly: Yes, it's ok!
]you[/i] and what's best for you.
I think it's important to do whatever it takes to get the feelings of 'bitterness' (for want of a better word; English is not my first language) or any other feelings that might be holding you back from present or future progress - but I emphatically do not believe that absolving your f of his hurtful behaviour is in any way neccessary to your own recovery.
I was raised by Narents and like you, on some level I still wish I could make them see and understand the hurt they've put me through and the impact it had and has on my life. But alas, we're truly "children of the self absorbed" and there is no way of getting through to them. So the best option is to look ahead and take the best possible care of ourselves and allow ourselves to heal.
Forgive your f inasmuch as it's neccessary for your own sake - that's all you're responsible for IMO.
Hello!
I have not forgiven my parents, and I do not believe we 'have to'. And I am not 'resentful, angry,'... etc as many think.
My main objective is to forgive myself for 'not being able to be stronger' as a child. :'(
My mother, too, was a narcissist. I can well imagine we have suffered a lot! :hug:
the one we need to forgive is ourself. that is what I have done a few years ago. I blamed myself for what my parents did. I tried to figure out what I did wrong that made them hate me.
I didn't do anything wrong. And I am not to blame and I am forgiven. I showed so much hate towards myself in the past for not being perfect. I tried to better myself all the time. I studied harder and harder and I learned how to speak really well. and I behaved really well and was a very nice child and still my parents had complains about me.
but its all forgiven. I didn't do anything wrong. its okay to be me "apples". I am an okay person what ever I do. I do my best every day and that is fine.
Quote from: Kizzie on March 15, 2015, 11:28:18 PM
I don't wish my Narents ill and I don't wish my them well, either. I just don't wish them to be a part of my life, that's all. --- And I don't even feel guilty about that. I deserve to concentrate on myself and my FOC and allow myself to heal and grow.
Well said KF! :thumbup:
I agree! My parents are both dead. My mother was the 'main abuser' but my father abandoned me in her hands, never stuck up for me.
It is easy for society to judge us... us who somehow gained the courage to look after ourselves, and see things for what they are. If others choose to remain blind, I see no reason to accompany them in their way down!
I've had a lot of arguments about this with people, especially online because there are some truly ridiculous "forgiveness" memes that go around a lot of the healing and positivity groups on FB. They make me incredibly angry. They associate the concept of forgiveness with character traits like strength, empathy, compassion - take for example this one...
http://ukrchurchorlando.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/forgive1.png
It's a quote from Mother Theresa. "If we really want to love, we must learn how to forgive." So, if you never forgive, you will never know how to love? That's ridiculous.
There are tons of these out there, insinuating that if you DON'T forgive, or CAN'T forgive, then you:
-are not compassionate
-are not strong
-will never heal
-will never be as "enlightened" as Mother Theresa or any of the other spiritual icons that these quotes come from
-will never 'get well' or 'move on'
The strength one comes up again and again. Google "forgive" or "forgiveness" and go to images. You'll see the memes.
To me, it is revictimization for people who have suffered trauma's. How dare them tell anyone who has gone through emotional trauma at the hands of another human being that if they can't forgive them, they will never heal and that they are not strong. How dare them.
People say "Forgiveness isn't for them, it's for you. So that you don't carry around hate in your heart." It's become such a trite platitude. If you actually press someone, ask them..."What does that actually mean, "it's not for them, it's for me"? How does that help me with my symptoms?" They won't be able to answer you.
Because here's the thing, the definition of forgive that pops up when you google it says:To either stop feeling angry or resentful towards someone for an offense, flaw, or mistake. That's the most accepted definition in this context. And people can say that it doesn't absolve the other person of what they did, all they like...but the synonyms of forgive are: absolve, pardon, excuse, exonerate, overlook, disregard, ignore.
I honestly believe that forgiving the abusers is a stage in denial and rationalization of what happened. I did it. I've seen other people do it. In an effort to put it all behind me, move on, and have a relationship with my abuser, I "forgave" her. I convinced myself that I'd let it all go. I did this before I ever had any idea what the impact of her abuse on me was and I put myself in harms way by allowing her to do it again.
Letting go of hurt and anger is something that MAY come with time. It may not. It's ok either way. Being angry, as long as you're actively working towards healing, won't destroy you. For me, it inspires me. My anger and outrage at my own treatment and the treatment of others is a catalyst for working through my stuff enough to be able to help others.
:yeahthat:
Spryte, you wrote everything I wished I could have said but couldn't because the forgiveness convo is so enormously triggering to me. Thank you so much. :hug:
I'm glad what I wrote spoke to you. It used to be triggering for me too. I've gotten a bit better at articulating why it makes me so angry.
Here are some great articles you might be interested in.
http://emergingfrombroken.com/the-confusion-created-around-forgiveness-issues/
http://emergingfrombroken.com/forgiveness-and-child-abuse-when-suggesting-forgiveness-is-abusive/
http://emergingfrombroken.com/forgive-the-abusers-a-bit-of-a-rant/
Quote from: spryte on June 07, 2015, 06:18:09 PM
To me, it is revictimization for people who have suffered trauma's. How dare them tell anyone who has gone through emotional trauma at the hands of another human being that if they can't forgive them, they will never heal and that they are not strong. How dare them.
Letting go of hurt and anger is something that MAY come with time. It may not. It's ok either way. Being angry, as long as you're actively working towards healing, won't destroy you. For me, it inspires me. My anger and outrage at my own treatment and the treatment of others is a catalyst for working through my stuff enough to be able to help others.
Well said. I agree fully with all you've said.
During my trip out of the FOG I discovered a website that has been helpful for me, and it has an article on forgiveness.
Perhaps you'll find it helpful too.
http://www.traumahealed.com/articles/allow-self-forgiveness.html
excerpts:
QuoteOne more task
Too often, people recommend forgiving others to sidestep appropriate rage and protect abusers from natural consequences of their behavior. "He's being nice now," they say, or, "She never bothers me." Forgiveness becomes a cruel yardstick for healing, one more task before survivors can feel good enough.
QuoteForgiveness for vulnerability
In some cases, self-forgiveness decreases forgiveness for others. In our efforts to protect and forgive abusers, we blame ourselves for the abuse. When we can forgive ourselves for being vulnerable, trusting, or simply finding ourselves in the vicinity of an abuser, we may feel less forgiving of the person choosing abusive behavior, at least for a while.
Quote
It's a quote from Mother Theresa. "If we really want to love, we must learn how to forgive." So, if you never forgive, you will never know how to love? That's ridiculous.
If you want a deconstruction of the "Mother Theresa Myth", watch this documentary by Christopher Hitchens:
Warning: there's a good reason why it is titled "*'s Angel". Her image gets a threshing. View on your own discretion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65JxnUW7Wk4
I love this thread!!!
I too get so angry with all the "positive" platitudes, forced joy, and forced forgiveness that is rampant in our social media and in the society in general. It feels so disregarding and it does not allow a person's process. Forgiveness might come but if it is true forgiveness, it comes in it's own time, at the end of a process, and not because someone has forced or shamed you into forgiving. Forced/faked forgiveness goes underground and becomes convoluted usually turning into something more insidious like passive-aggressiveness. And there are times when forgiveness is just not possible, especially when the abuse is so heinous.
There is a big difference between a chronic help-rejecting-complainer and someone who is telling their story and/or venting as part of their healing process. It seems that many people throw you into the help-rejecting-complainer category with any of what they term "negative" and run for fear of being contaminated.
Ferzak, thanks so much for contributing, I love your post so much!
You're absolutely right on two points that I never thought about...the way that forced forgiveness can become passive-aggressiveness! And the tendency for people to put us in the help-rejecting-complainer category. That makes me wonder if that's what my brother/father have been doing all these years. Even though they've been trying to be supportive, there's always this layer of forced positivity with them that I haven't known how to deal with. I feel like I've heard the term help-rejecting complainer before. Is that a theory from somewhere that I could read more about?
Spryte and all,
yes-the term "help rejecting complainer" is used by the counseling community, and now in general, to explain people who present terrible situations and then have a "yes, but" for any solution you offer. True help rejecting people don't really want a solution and when they complain, it is not true venting because they never let go, it is bottomless negativity. They are more or less out to prove to you, and anyone who will listen, that their situation is worse than anyone else's, that it is someone's fault, and that you should simply feel sorry for them. For those of us with CPTSD who are on the path to healing, venting and grieving are important parts of the process and ARE NOT the same as when a help rejecting complainer complains!
I think we all know a help rejecting complainer. My next door neighbor is one and what Peter Walker calls a "narcissist in co-dependent clothing"...(or is it the other way around?!). She gets in by asking you how you are and then launches on a monologue that goes on for up to a half hour at a time, that details all the bad things in her life, where there is even a pause where you can make an excuse to get away!!
anyway
I didn't mean to go off on that tangent!
Do you think that with your brother and father that they put the forced positive layer on top because they can't handle their own powerlessness regarding your history? They may also feel they need to fix your situation, make you feel better, etc. There may be guilt too on their part over what happened to you?
Many people in my life have tried to re-frame my past in a more positive light because they either don't want to deal with it or want me to be OK. It always makes it worse ..... It makes me feel invalidated and that my feelings are frivolous, overly dramatic, etc. I am now with a therapist who is validating my experience-that my childhood was absolutely awful, and it actually helps me let it go. We all need to be heard and seen and we all want to be loved for who we really are...not some image we portray. To tell the truth about our experience when it wasn't good is not complaining, it is freeing. And we can be totally OK while acknowledging what happened to us.
Thanks for the definition. I've had a lot of people like that in my life. My last ex was so completely a help-rejecter complainer. It was exhausting. He was such an energetic vampire. I would get physically sick from conversations from him that just went in never ending circles of negativity and him rejecting everything I said, or "I don't understand" ing me. I had to work hard to disentangle myself from that, even after we broke up.
My father and my brother...yes, absolutely. It's their issue, and I've just kind of had to accept it although with my dad, I'm ramping up to start making more..."I know you're trying to be supportive and helpful, but here's how you can be MORE supportive and helpful." My dad carries a lot of guilt, I think, for leaving me and my brother with my crazy BPD mother. My brother...well, he's got his own scars from my BPD mother but it gets complex because he was the baby and the golden child. Didn't mean he came out unscathed though. For a long time, when I first started my recovery, he didn't want to hear anything about it. Then, she and he started really having issues, and he ended up coming back to me and apologizing for not understanding why I went NC with her. He still doesn't want to talk about it much though and I think he uses positivity to cover a lot of stuff up.
For anyone struggling with this question from the religious standpoint (I know many are not, but some probably are), I sought truth about this for a long time so I will share.
Jesus' forgiveness is the model Christianity gives. Even God cannot forgive us unless we 1. Repent, 2. Publicly display our repentance (baptism) and 3. Accept the forgiveness offered.
How many of us would love genuine repentance, public apology from our abusers, and be able to partially genuinely forgive in those circumstances? I would.
Well if God won't do it without genuine change and repentance, how could He expect me, a mere mortal to? Ridiculous.
These forgive and forget kum-ba-ya Christians need to read their bibles and use the logic that God gave them. And they make God look so unreasonable when they add ideas that were never in the Bible in the first place.
I no longer struggle that I should forgive. At times I have compassion for my abusers, but that is my own heartful gift to give (mercy) if and when I am feeling it."
I no longer struggle that I should forgive. At times I have compassion for my abusers, but that is my own heartful gift to give (mercy) if and when I am feeling it.
Well said PaintedBlack, I feel the same way. I haven't forgiven my PD parents and I am comfortable with that, I don't feel the guilt I used to. I used to though and a lot of that had to do with people telling me I should just let it go, get over it. I remember a T asking me if I could understand they were ill. What I heard I heard "You must forgive them if you want to get well" and all I could think was "How can I possibly forgive the unforgivable?"I was not ready for that. I was incredibly angry, furious actually and never went back.
I didn't realize then what she was trying to get at because I hadn't had the opportunity for validation of my trauma, of getting all that anger rise to the surface finally and acknowledging that it was completely justifiable. I hope that as T's learn more about CPTSD they will understand how invalidating any talk of forgiveness, compassion, understanding feels after a lifetime of being silenced, gaslighted, invalidated?
So compassion for my PD FOO didn't come easily or quickly and frankly it wasn't something I thought possible, it just started to happen as I became more compassionate with myself. And that only started after a long, intense period of being angry - the type of "angering" Pete Walker talks that he believes is necessary for recovery (and I agree). Most times when anyone said anything about forgiveness, compassion, just let it go, anything like that I would go into an EF and turn the shame and guilt on myself. "I am being shoved back into this dark place again and I deserve it, I am a terrible person!"
Compassion looks like this at this stage in recovery. I am NC with everyone but my NPDM because I don't want the constant triggering in my life and to sink into the anger and depression of having to deal with them daily. That's self-compassion. Compassion for my PD parents (my F is dead), has come about through an understanding that while it (their behaviour) happened to me, it was never really about me. It was about about their brokeness, their disconnect from what makes us human and able to have healthy relationships, it was about having a personality disorder and not about me being bad, worthless, defective, too sensitive, not sensitive enough, stupid, ..... fill in the blank. From what I know of my FOO, PDs were a gift from their parents and who knows how far it stretches back.
I feel compassion for the fact that they they developed a disorder because of what they endured (although I still need to be LC), and I feel compassion for myself for having had to endure that legacy. Forgiveness though? No, that would feel like turning my back on myself.
Hi Southland - I am so sorry you had to find out about your father's death online, that should not happen to anyone. It's not much but :hug: and although we are a cyber community I hope you will feel a little less alone by being here.
I let my NPDM get away with everything too because the few times I tried to tell anyone I was slapped down and shamed. It's a very lonely feeling. It took a long time to move on, but I had to and I don't miss my FOO anymore. Contact with any of them causes me so much pain and I'm done with that.
I hope the loneliness subsides a little each day Southland :hug:
Hello!
I also wish to say 'thank you' to Spryte for the clear explanation of the many myths on forgiveness. These myths, like 'having to forgive for us, not for them', are clearly re-victimizations for us, who have had to suffer the original trauma.
And as far as I am concerned, I don't even understand what they mean with it. I feel anger at my abusers, but I am more and more at peace with myself when I put the responsibility for the abuse on them, not me. And I used to feel guilty for 'not being able to forgive' in the past.
I still feel sorry for my abusers occasionally. I tell myself that maybe they 'didn't know how to do it better'... but then I tell myself that I have enough with dealing with the consequences of the abuse every day of my life.
Just my little contribution to this tread.
[I literally can't bear it. I'm now on a disability pension (for mental health issues) and I worry constantly about money, do things like groping around in the dark to save on power and often feel distressed in the night
My parents were calling me insane from adolescence onwards and I believed them, even though I did well academically and was popular with teachers and other pupils.
Dear Southbound,
I am so sorry you're feeling so low. My parents used to say very similar things to me and I too believed them. I have suffered crippling anxiety and sometimes depression too, and unfortunately these emotional states contributed to create my fibromyalgia and very early arthritis that have been very hard to bear in the last 20 years.
I have had many problems with work as the result of all this.
Only now I have come to understand that my parents made me the scapegoat of the family, and that they were WRONG. I wish very sincerely that you come to see your abusers as wrong too.
I hope that being here will make you feel more cared for and respected, despite this being an online group only.
:hug:
Hi Southbound! You are an awesome writer and I hope that you will share your writing with all in this forum. I, too, am sorry you heard about your father's passing like you did. And, I understand how you simply went to bed.
About the forgiveness issue - why? Why would I forgive my abusers? How would that benefit me?
Now, finally, I'm putting myself first, and I don't care one bit about NM or FOO. Not what they say about me, what is going on in their lives, nothing. THAT, I believe, is forgiveness. Forgiving myself for accepting the abuse for most of my life. And allowing myself to recover.
Dear Southbound and Gabrielle, same for me....I am officially mentally disabled and I am extremely alone in life. I do so identify with the stories you two tell.
You folks are courageous, you are articulate, and I am so grateful to you both for your honesty. It makes me feel less alone, it lifts my heart.
Big hugs :hug: :hug: :hug:
Today I found this YouTubester who made some impressive and very personal posts about her experiences with a Narcissistic mother, and the ensuing (dysfunctional) family dynamic.
She made a quite nice video on forgiveness. It's more of a mind-flow than anything specifically profound she set out to tell*, but well worth a watch I think.
*) obviously I haven't got a clue on what she possibly set out to tell.
I do identify with a lot she says.
Forgiveness is such a tricky subject. Hard to pin down.
But she surely has hit the nail on the head a few times here:
Title: Narcissism: Why Forgiveness Is Irrelevant to Me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqn7o3tRhA8
A few thoughts re forgiveness:
--(Ditto that) forgiveness does NOT equal reconciliation.
--Forgiveness does not mean that you are "okay with what happened" (I'm sure not okay with what happened to me) or that you shouldn't be angry. Angry and "mad as *" are probably appropriate emotional responses.
--Forgiveness IS relinquishing the desire/ right to collect upon a debt that someone owes you, which is impossible to collect anyway when the debt is emotional. By relinquishing that debt, you are then able to focus on you and your healing, instead of on how much you would like to hurt the other person. For those of us who choose to follow Christ, we give that debt to Christ to collect. For those that believe in karma, karma collects the debt.
As far as the whole "honor your mother and father" thing...Christ said "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12: 48-50. Also, for many of us here, the most honoring thing that we can do for our biological parents is to draw boundaries not put up with their evil crap.
Quote from: SadieMist on August 05, 2015, 04:30:26 AM
Forgiveness IS relinquishing the desire/ right to collect upon a debt that someone owes you
For me 'debt' is not an issue here.
I'm dealing with theft.
It's not that 'they' borrowed something and refuse to give/bring it back.
I was simply robbed.
Yes I also believe that forgiveness does not mean that you are ok with all that happened.
I personally have always tried to forgive for my own peace of mind. The years i was not forgiving were the most difficult for me. I became very bitter and even though it was the last thing i wanted my children suffered from it. If I am angry even if its not at them, i am not nice to be around. They learned a lot of swearing in those years and they were only 1-6 years old. The worst i did one day when i was ruminating and angry at all that had happened to me was lash out and hit 2 of my children.
I then got so angry at my mother and blamed her for even making me and my children suffer though we weren't seeing her anymore. I still blame her for this sometimes, but for me forgiveness is letting go and allowing myself to be who i am without them in the picture anymore. Also allowing me to sit with the pain and seeing where it comes from allows for creativity and pain comes out in art forms. Everyone will have different ways they can embrace the pain and learn from it instead of allowing it to eat us up from the inside. When we fight the pain and try to get rid of it it eats us up, when we accept that we have pain and sit with it, we start to know what to do with it.
Quote from: Annegirl on August 13, 2015, 09:38:18 PM
but for me forgiveness is letting go and allowing myself to be who i am without them in the picture anymore.
That's awesome!
I'm in a process where I'm trying to allow that to myself as well.
On a different website I found an article on (self-)forgiveness, and this quote really hit home:
"In some cases, self-forgiveness decreases forgiveness for others. In our efforts to protect and forgive abusers, we blame ourselves for the abuse. When we can forgive ourselves for being vulnerable, trusting, or simply finding ourselves in the vicinity of an abuser, we may feel less forgiving of the person choosing abusive behavior, at least for a while."
I take my hat off to you for having taken notice of lashing out on your kids, and stopped doing that. And acknowledging the connection with what your mom has put you through. She didn't do the right thing and didn't learn from her wrongs. You did, and continue to do so. Brava! :applause:
Salute!