Out of the Storm

Development of CPTSD in Adulthood => Causes => General Discussion => Topic started by: thetruth on September 28, 2018, 08:49:01 PM

Title: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 28, 2018, 08:49:01 PM
Hi,

I have not posted in a long time.

I just want to ask a question.

Is it legal and ethical for a  doctor to refuse to attribute your stress to unfair treatment in the workplace, after they have been made aware of the problem for a period of years and after they have been informed that you are about to be unfairly dismissed from the job because you have had to protest about unfair treatment?


The shorter version of that question would be, is it legal for a doctor to refuse to say on a sick line that your stress is work related when they know it is work related and they have already said as much in their notes?

If that is legal in a developed country in 2018 how can that be ok?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Boy22 on September 28, 2018, 09:24:39 PM
I dont know which country and or state you are in but as to ethics, yes it is acceptable. A doctor should only record on a formal document things they can state that they know to be true. So whilst you may have told them numerous times and they appeared to believe you they have not independently verified the situation.

So the doctor is behaving as if stating something will leave them legally vulnerable, which they dont want to be.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 28, 2018, 09:35:38 PM
Thanks Boy22.

I suppose  what my question is then is, how is it ethical for a doctor to refuse to state the true nature of a set of circumstances when not stating the true circumstances has such a detrimental effect for their patient?

The injustice that can result from a doctor refusing to state a truth he knows to be true has been severe in my case. By that I mean life and health ruining.

My gp effectively assisted in my unfair dismissal. He was very well informed on the situation but he rejected the truth in order to avoid inconvenience. I just cannot comprehend how this is possible in a civilised society. He knew I was going to lose my job and he didn't care. When I say lose my job I mean be unfairly dismissed. He withheld the only support available to me.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Sceal on September 28, 2018, 09:46:07 PM
It's difficult to give advice on this as each country has their different health care systems and different laws.

But you should be able ask for a print out of your entire medical journal, and if he has written down your situation in the journal, that could potentially help you legally. As a patient's journal is a legal document.

As far as ethics go, it's trickier. Your GP might simply not believe in you. And if he doesn't believe you are saying the truth it might never be a beneficial patient-doctor relationship. The trust do need to go both ways in order to give and get the best treatment. If you feel unsafe it might be better to find a different GP.

I've worked at a doctor's office, and I've seen similar situations you are describing from both sides. It is difficult.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Boy22 on September 28, 2018, 10:00:22 PM
Quote from: thetruth on September 28, 2018, 09:35:38 PM(Edited by Boy22 for clarity)
My gp effectively assisted in my unfair dismissal. He was very well informed on the situation but he rejected the truth in order to avoid inconvenience. He knew I was going to lose my job and he didn't care. When I say lose my job I mean be unfairly dismissed. He withheld the only support available to me.

I just cannot comprehend how this is possible in a civilised society.
You are here thetruth because our society is not fair. It is worse than unfair, it traumatises and retraumatises some of us over and over. And Doctors dont come ready formed as perfect human beings, in fact their training de-humanises them.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 29, 2018, 03:27:42 PM
Hi Sceal and Boy22,

Thanks a lot for your replies.

There is even more to it. Following having attempted to describe the trouble I was having with an employer, and after 4 years of traumatizing complex, varied nature harassment, in a state of sheer desperation, I gave my employer permission to speak to my gp. My gp had known me all my life and he knew my history of depressive episodes.

I fully trusted my gp to live up to his reputation of being a man of integrity. I trusted this man and I believed his involvement could only lead towards some long overdue fairness. I was so mistaken.

My gp has never told me what my employer said but it is now clear that my employer used the opportunity to misrepresent the stress i was experiencing as not being a product of unfair treatment. Despite what I had previously told my gp about the harassment I was enduring, my gp went along with the desires of my abusive employer. He sat back and did nothing as they unfairly dismissed me and he refused to say my stress was related to my employer. He served his own convenience regardless of the cost to me.

I have my doctor's notes. A year before he refused to say my stress was work related on a sick line, which would have prevented my unfair dismissal, he recorded in his noted that my issues were work related.

It's been 5 years and my mind is owned by the unfairness of the circumstances. It is my reality and I don't know how a gp has the power to reject truth if he doesn't like it. I don't know how he doesn't have a duty to take more care, a responsibility to behave in a way that protects the victim of harassment when they tell him that is happening.

It appears to be if a doctor dislikes ge reality affecting his patient he can reject it at the expense of the patients mental health. This is hardly fair and it means a doctor can cause harm to avoid inconvenience.

Is it not time doctors cannot deny reality to suit themselves? My doctor caused me massive harm. I don't know how this is ok.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 29, 2018, 04:52:55 PM
It appears to be hard to convey exactly what this doctor did. I find people are by nature, averse to believing he was as betraying as he was. He adressed my stress as if it was just the same as previous depressive episodes despite my telling him my troubles were caused by harassment. He used my having a history of depressive episodes as a means to avoid attributing my stress to the harassment that caused it because that way was less likely to inconvenience him.

And he did this in the knowledge that that was more accommodating for my abusive employer who he was in discussion with  at the time as I had invited my doctor into the mix to try to achieve fairness.

It is hard for me to convey how unjust my doctors behaviour was. He helped my employer misrepresent my difficulty to render them innocent of harassment.

I can't reconcile this stuff with anything that makes it bearable.

Around about June I benefited from someone sharing a thought on this forum. That was....'the human mind can cope with tragedy but it cannot cope with evil.'

This helped me drop my trouble for around 10 to 12 weeks. Alas my anxiety and preoccupation is back now and here I am again, struggling and close to having to withdraw from life again.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Blueberry on September 29, 2018, 06:17:39 PM
The thought helped you for 10-12 weeks? That's great. Sounds like some healing has been going on. :thumbup:

Now it has blindsided you again. Unfortunately ime fairly normal with cptsd. It sounds unfair and unjust and if maybe that's what is triggering you. It's really hard when our trust is betrayed. That can feel like the heart of the traumatisation.

I don't feel I can say anything helpful except standing with you.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Boy22 on September 29, 2018, 07:09:51 PM
The betrayal of trust you have suffered is massive. It is going to take you some time to be able to move on.

Venting here, and with a therapist, is useful.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 30, 2018, 07:09:42 AM
Hi Blueberry and Boy22,

Thanks again for replying.

The thinking about the events of the past has become automatic again. The effect is constant anxiety. A kind of dread and sense of defeat. It's also heavily laced with frustration.

Just recently I went away for a week to a friend's house in Dublin. I had great freedom when there but thoughts of a need for justice crept in even when there. Moving back home opened the floodgates for difficult rumination and intense anxiety. There is a pattern emerging. Coming back home to the environment where the old employer is and where the medical practice of my betraying GP is, triggers me.

I am considering a holiday to a friend in up state New York to jolt my mind, to give me a good distraction.

The  broken record is playing again. The rumination is really bringing me down. Maybe a visit to another part of the world will be good for my mind.

Has anyone else used travel to combat C ptsd or C ptsd-like troubles?
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Libby183 on September 30, 2018, 07:15:02 AM
I am so sorry that you are having to deal with such a harrowing situation.  I have often been bullied at work - I was a nurse, and bullying in the health care system in the UK is a huge,  and accepted problem.

Recently,  my son who has minor learning difficulties,  was subjected to intense bullying at a law firm. The reaction of the GP to his mental and physical suffering was, well?  Nothing.  Not bothered,  not interested.  Son left job and is doing well,  and no bullying.

I simply don't believe that GPs have any role to play in helping us. They are not there for us, they are there to keep society running smoothly,  keep people working and off benefits.  There is no place for compassion in this set up, and I do not believe that anyone with compassion really makes it in the medical profession.  I have grave concerns about therapy as well.  NHS therapy earlier in the year has left me in a far worse mental state than I have ever been in (although EMDR helped a lot with chronic pain). Have said this to two GPS - both times,  they shrugged and sent me on my way.

I can offer nothing ( and am worried that my views are unacceptable)  but I want you to know that I understand your pain, and the intensity of your betrayal.  Venting here is a real lifeline.

Take care.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Libby183 on September 30, 2018, 07:21:55 AM
Sorry to butt in again, but I just saw your new post,  regarding your rumination over this issue.  I understand completely,  although my main area of rumination is my relationship with my parents,  where my difficulties stem from.  It is so exhausting, isn't it?  But I think that travel,  and doing anything different is an excellent idea, and I hope very much, that you get to try this out.

All the best to you.

Libby.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 30, 2018, 08:03:03 AM
Thanks a lot Libby. Yes it is exhausting. So much so, withdrawing from life is sometimes the only way forward, complete time out.

What you say about GPs not caring or feeling any sense of duty to do the right thing rings very true.  I could give you many interesting quotes from my GP to show what I was up against but 2 will suffice. On two separate occasions, 2 years apart, after I had been wrongfully dismissed from my job and I was trying to explain to my GP what was so unjust about that he responded with typical indifference. This was after he refused to say my stress was work related on a sick line he was writing 2 weeks before my wrongful dismissal.

In  April 2015 almost 2 years after losing my job he replied to my describing the harassment I endured in that job with the statement, "Well I have no axe to grind with them."

1.5 years after that in December 2016 when I was back in his office again out of my mind with anxiety over the same injustices he said, "Are you going to move on or what?"

My being affected by the harassment which he ignored and the wrongful dismissal that he helped to happen  was a real nuisance for him.

The last thing on earth he was going to do, at any point in this now 9 year battle, was say that my grievances were legitimate.

He addressed me as if I was a nuisance.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on September 30, 2018, 08:07:14 AM
Quote from: Libby183 on September 30, 2018, 07:21:55 AM
Sorry to butt in again, but I just saw your new post,  regarding your rumination over this issue.  I understand completely,  although my main area of rumination is my relationship with my parents,  where my difficulties stem from.  It is so exhausting, isn't it?  But I think that travel,  and doing anything different is an excellent idea, and I hope very much, that you get to try this out.

All the best to you.

Libby.

Hi Libby,

I can relate to your having difficulties with your parents also.

Have you described your experiences in other threads and if so can you link me?

Rumination is exhausting. You are already worn out when you wake up in the morning.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Rainagain on September 30, 2018, 10:06:35 PM
Hello again the truth,

I'm sorry to hear about the ruminating, it sounds a bit like the intrusive thoughts I also suffer from.

In my case I am unable to accept what has happened to me when I am feeling very low, when I am stronger it gets easier for a while.

I think of it like a stage of grieving - acceptance. Full acceptance will happen sometime and silence the voice in our head. I believe we can get past this stage and become accepting of the trauma, I don't know why I think that. I just sort of know it.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Boy22 on October 01, 2018, 12:00:58 AM
Quote from: Rainagain on September 30, 2018, 10:06:35 PM
I think of it like a stage of grieving - acceptance. Full acceptance will happen sometime and silence the voice in our head. I believe we can get past this stage and become accepting of the trauma, I don't know why I think that. I just sort of know it.
Hi thetruth and Rainagain,

The quote from Rainagain above is something very similar to what my psychiatrist said to me.

I have just returned from a consultation with my GP. I am lucky he is caring, the receptionist even gave me a hug as I was leaving. I went because my blood pressure is not under control despite several meds.

There are a few good GPs out there, but they are hard to find and usually have a full patient load already.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Libby183 on October 01, 2018, 07:47:36 AM
Hi again,  thetruth.

Thanks for your interest in my experiences. I am the product of a very typical dysfunctional family.  We must have looked pretty good on the outside, because appearances mattered above all else. But we were utterly controlled by likely pd mother, and backed up by weak, enabling father. I was ill and depressed by the age of four or five.

I simply don't feel part of society,  because many people,  doctors and my recent therapist seem to endorse the physical,  psychological and emotional abuse I suffered at the hands of my parents.  I am told that I need to forgive and get over it. The same message my family gave. I only act out to my husband,  who understands,  and otherwise I isolate completely because, for me, people are hurtful.

I am with you absolutely on the utter unfairness of your situation, but sadly, I am not surprised.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on October 01, 2018, 08:09:11 AM
Hi Rainagain,

I can fully relate. There is a sort of oscillation in and out of being deeply troubled by past events. The more of these oscillations you live through, the more you can trust in the old adage, 'this too shall pass' when in the midst of an anxious episode, or possibly what Pete Walker would call a flashback?

I think I have just ridden out the worst of a 2 to 3 week bad spell though I am still automatically thinking very difficult thoughts around past mistreatment first thing in the morning, last thing at night and virtually all the time during the day if someone else isn't engaging me in distracting conversation.

This recent bout of bother was triggered by going away from home for a week and then coming back again. It is the returning that is the problem. Old wounds that are just about closed rip open again when I come back to my familiar surrounding where the employer and the betraying doctor are. We all live in a small community. Humiliating lies were cultivated about me to deflect from the ugly truth that I had no choice but to protest about....in other words...'He's not being mistreated, he's just unstable.' My gp helped cultivate this lie.

Yes the difficulty waxes and wanes. Hope that spelling is ok. I might have to deal with the troubled episodes for the rest of my days. I don't think they are ever going to fully go away.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on October 02, 2018, 08:16:47 AM
....quote from Libby183...
"Thanks for your interest in my experiences. I am the product of a very typical dysfunctional family.  We must have looked pretty good on the outside, because appearances mattered above all else. But we were utterly controlled by likely pd mother, and backed up by weak, enabling father. I was ill and depressed by the age of four or five."

Hi Libby,

I can relate to large parts of what you say about your childhood but you had it worse than me. I can, on reflection now at the age of 43, appreciate just how depressed I was at times in my childhood and adolescence. My mother was a person of low self esteem, fear and unrealistic expectations and my father was bound to support her in her abusive policies  for fear of scorn and emotional abuse from her for not being a good enough man/husband/father.

We were the perfect family going by outward appearances. For this child  there was a hidden grimness that he didn't realise was damaging him. I was not being prepared for life, anything but. I was being weakened, not nurtured. A lot of it involved religious judgement and scorn.... the message was, you're bad, you're sinful, nothing short of saintliness will suffice.

I think religion might have ruined my mother's life experience because the brand of it she knew was too oppressive. It affected a big chunk of my life too but I've all but dropped it at present.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Kizzie on October 02, 2018, 06:38:38 PM
Unfortunately many of us will never get the justice we deserve and worse, perpetrators will blame us and make us look like we are the ones with the problem.  Having grown in a family rife with NPD I get this all too well and it's a hard and bitter truth to swallow. 

I recently went back to therapy because I too was ruminating, stuck wanting that justice I never had, trapped really by having to watch Trump's NPD behaviour daily, hourly even. I had been moving on in my recovery, letting go of the past until then.

Anyway, I am trying EMDR and it seems to be helping me to shift my feelings into the past where they belong (because it's like I am relving the past in the present basically), and in the course of doing so spread them out if that makes sense so that I can live more comfortably with the fact that life dealt me some crappy cards as a child and youth. With each session I am not feeling as trapped by or stuck in the injustice and abuse so perhaps this would be worth a try for you  :Idunno:   
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on October 03, 2018, 07:53:40 AM
Hi Kizzie,

My bullying employer went to great lengths to cultivate the idea that I was irrational and over-sensitive in the minds of my colleagues, my GP and the community,  ever since I was left with no choice but to make a protest about his behaviour. This was all the easier for him to do because I did have a history of depression and to my amazement, it turned out to suit my GP also to accept that my stress was a result if personal instability and not a response to harassment.

All this while I singlehandedly carried out the most mentally and physically demanding aspect of work within that company.

I think that's why the injury runs so deep and is so long lasting. I did their hardest job to the highest standard they had ever seen, I was targeted by a petty boss because of my greater competence and problem solving ability than he could dream of and at the end of it all they had successfully cultivated the idea that my stress was because I was a nutjob to deflect from the difficult truth that he was a criminal bully.

My GP helped them get rid of me when my stress was so severe I had no option but to take legal action. Then my stress was too severe to even consider legal action when it transpired my GP was playing their game and indifferent about my plight. 5 years later my anxiety is live about this right now as I type. I'm almost in disbelief that I can't shake off the effects but I live where this happened and the triggers are in every inch of  the place.. every face.

Worn out.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Libby183 on October 03, 2018, 08:26:16 AM
I understand your pain so well and your, almost surprise,  and frustration that you can't shake off the pain. I know that feeling exactly.  In my early fifties, having been no contact with FOO for over six years,  I don't miss them in the slightest and am happy to never see them again. So why can't I let it go? I think you are right about the retriggering, and wonder if your pain now about your doctor and employer is also a huge retriggering of feelings left over from a difficult childhood.  Certainly the bullying I suffered as an employee and a patient in the NHS (with a difficult twin pregnancy and preterm, poorly babies)  felt like the pain and emotional abandonment of my childhood.  When you have been so harmed as a small defenceless child, it just never seems to leave you.  Your description of your childhood didn't sound ideal, but it's just a thought.

This could be something that emdr could help with,  and I am thrilled that it is a positive experience for Kizzie.  I found it very successful in dealing with the chronic body pain. Dealing with one particular traumatic memory really helped.  But otherwise,  I am in a worse place than before. I am triggered by all interaction with anyone other than my husband and children.  I have been written off as beyond help by GP surgery,  despite never being difficult or demanding. 

I hope I haven't over-done this reply. Just wanted you to know that I understand and am with you, fwiw.

Libby
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Kizzie on October 03, 2018, 04:44:06 PM
Is EMDR something you might consider TheTruth?  Some members have had great success with it, others not quite as much.  I know when I tried it four years ago it did not go well because I was really in a bad place and overwhelmed by trauma. It was just too much then but this time it seems to be helping. I think it depends on each person and where they are in recovery as well as the practitioner, but it might just help shift you out of that stuck place.   :Idunno:
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on October 03, 2018, 08:52:39 PM
Hi Libby and Kizzie,

I've just watched a YouTube vid on EMDR to refresh my memory of how it works. In theory it sounds custom designed for my needs..  which would be, release from emotional difficulty which is impairing my life quality and serving no useful purpose.

There is nothing to be gained from feeling crap year in year out over something that cannot be changed. Why do our minds refuse to give up these unhelpful thinking patterns. The only term I have come across to describe the experience is psychological injury.

If EMDR can break the spell I cannot wait to try it.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: sanmagic7 on October 03, 2018, 10:00:46 PM
hi, thetruth,

just jumping in here.  i am an emdr therapist, and if it's done correctly, emdr can be life-changing.  it can help our minds reprocess those psychological injuries (indeed they are) so that the memories do not carry the same impact going forward in our lives as they have continually done. 

i also struggled with 'justice', rumination, spinning scenarios round and round my mind for years.  the only thing that helped me at all was to give that sense of unfairness away to a perceived guardian angel, and let her deal with it.  of course, this could be a higher power, the universe, whatever works for an individual.

it helped me in that i believed that anything which needed to be done to/with/for that person would be taken care of, and i could let go of a lot of the stress and energy i was putting into that neverending treadmill of useless thought which was actually only harming me and wasn't producing anything productive or positive for me or my life.   

these types of thoughts/thinking dynamics were exhausting and at times overwhelming, too.  i do hope you find some relief very soon.  the idea you mentioned of returning to your home being triggering makes perfect sense to me.   i've had the same experience when having to return to the city where some of my abusers lived.  it was like the vibes in the air were so negative i couldn't get away from them.

luckily, i don't live there anymore, and hope i don't have to return anytime soon (altho funerals come to mind - ugh).  at any rate, sending love and a hug filled with renewed spirit and energy.  i'm very sorry you've had this experience.  i wish docs would look at the whole person, not just random symptoms.  as someone mentioned, there are a few out there - finding them is the difficulty too often.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Kizzie on October 03, 2018, 10:38:43 PM
I hope you do give it a try TheTruth and let us know if it helps.   :yes:

Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: thetruth on October 04, 2018, 06:57:03 AM
Id  love to try it. It's 7.50am and the anxiety is on. It's been on for the best part of a month. It doesn't benefit me nor anyone else. The mornings are probably the most difficult thing.

It would be amazing to be able to wake up in the morning and experience peace and enthusiasm for life rather than this pointless angst. I have to get up and start to move around to reduce this uneasiness. I've learned that much.

Thanks for the heads up on EMDR, it could really help me out of this thing.
Title: Re: Doctors and the law.
Post by: Kizzie on October 05, 2018, 05:37:29 PM
 :thumbup: - Hope it's helps.