Hi all.
I have a friend who is being treated very poorly by her boss. He is endeavouring to upset her. It has been going on for up to 2 years. It involves micromanagment and being generally inconsiderate and difficult, the usual 'hard to describe' constant climate of antagonizing and controlling behaviour.
Having been the victim of the same thing in the past and as I am still suffering over the legacy of it all, I want to do whatever I can to help this woman. It will come as no surprise to hear that this woman is a lovely person who only means well to all people. She is also competent in her work and well thought of.
So this guy resents her. He became her boss 2 years ago. She was already in the job long before he came on the scene and he is ruining her working life.
Can anyone offer any advice on how to protect her? Should his behaviour be flagged up to a higher authority in the organisation for her? With her consent of course. Until his behaviour is reported he will continue to push her towards an outburst, after which he will accuse her of being aggressive or crazy.
She needs help.
Most workplaces have harassment policies and processes - maybe suggest she check with HR and if there are she can lodge a complaint.
I've been in this situation.
The best answer is to find another job and forget about this person.
I fought it instead, it did not go well.
If your friend can't leave then keep notes of everything and consider raising a grievance once there is strong documentation.
You need to warn the manager in writing that their behaviour is unacceptable so they cannot plead ignorance, banter, unintentional etc.
If there is someone else who can make a complaint as well then join forces.
Whoever hears the grievance will usually want to make it go away without finding fault, wait until something happens that is clear and cannot be ignored before using the grievance procedure.
I've been in this situation too. Unfortunately even with harassment policies in place, I still found it to be a no-win situation; just trying to ride out the disrepect and being constantly undermined, or reporting it and yes... everything Rainagain has said being the result.
Either way you cannot work to your best ability, and it is so mentally and emotionally draining fighting for yourself. Unfortunately (or fortunately once you're there), starting afresh in a new job seems to work well.
For me i'm much happier and am now thriving instead of flailing. That's just my view in hindsight, and I hope your friend triumps whatever they decide to do xo
Hi,
Thanks all for your replies. I've been managing anxiety and I forgot about my post for days.
I hear what you are saying Rainagain and I did suggest to her a year ago that she leave, on the back of my own personal experience of having mental health unexpectedly destroyed by the same method (harassment at work).
This woman is in a unique role which she loves. I was in a similar position too. So it's only with the benefit of hindsight I know I should've gotten out sooner.
It's not as easy as just leave and find another job. I was looking for a job that suited my aptitudes and abilities so perfectly all my life. I found It where I wanted to live. I had been in loads of jobs I despised previously. There simply were no alternative jobs to consider available. I had no choice but to fight. Because to leave without fighting for that job would have left me fully convinced I had walked away from the holy grail. Something I had already done in life and lived to regret it. So it's just not as easy as find another job, when you're in a job you actually love.
This woman is in a similar set of circumstances. She is in her dream job.
Does anyone know of a good non addictive alternative to diazepam? Has anyone tried kava kava? By all accounts it treats anxiety well?
Thanks everyone for feedback.
I was in my dream job too, but now I am so damaged that my future earning potential has been calculated as...zero.
So, just from my experience, no job is worth ruining yourself to hold on to.
However, it could be that your friend can get everything straightened out and things can be fine again.
I just think that is less likely than for things to become even worse and more damaging.
I don't think I've seen a persecutor stop just because they were asked, their character means they tend to increase their evil when challenged.
Fear can work, but its not something you can use in the workplace to straighten things out.
I am currently in a similar situation. I am not in my dream job, but it's a job that provides a lot of advantages that would be difficult to find elsewhere. I've been at my job 12 years and I'm good at what I do. Everyone other than this dude in senior management likes me and acknowledges my abilities. He has taken actions to stab me in the back at every opportunity and I've lost out on opportunities because of it.
Does your friend suffer from C-PTSD? Part of the reason why this man was able to target me is that I am very isolated, even though I'm generally well-liked. He is able to smear me and bully me because I stay to myself and don't have other allies who know me well enough to back me.
What I'm working on now, as part of my C-PTSD recovery, is to make other friendships and alliances at work so that those folks can vouch for me. He is nothing but a bully, so I also need to work on ways to be more assertive and not just accept his passive aggressive bullying.
If it's truly her dream job, then I think she could fight to stay on. It would really help her if she had more support among her coworkers and other people in management. But I also think she should consider whether she wants to pursue other opportunities. If she's going to have to put up with a bunch of crap to stay there, then is it really a dream job? Is she limiting herself unnecessarily by not being open to other possibilities? I know for the longest I haven't dared to dream about pursuing better opportunities because I don't feel worthy.
Concur with RA again. My absolute dream job too, had hit dream jackpot and loved it.
But the persecutor does not stop. Addressing things, even early, makes their persecution stronger and more underhanded.
Heck, mine really started when I received a top accolate in my field; bullying and maipulation kicked right off from there.
Unfortunately, all the advice in the world to get out is unlikely to be taken. It's understandable, one of the common problems with this situation is not being able to quite believe it could be happening, and if it really is, that justice, or common sense or just sanity can't prevail.
When it was happening to me I found thousands of people online. The stories are so similar it is eerie. I haven't heard of a case where it turned out okay for the target. Pretty much everyone says the same thing. If a person is being seriously targeted leaving is the only choice because staying pretty much always means being forced out with serious health detriment and re-employment issues making everything, including the injustice much worse.
No-one who has experienced this recommends going to HR. The bully has long prepared for this. She wont be his first target, or his last. I wish there were better options.
Thanks everyone for the responses. My own anxiety has been running high for over a month so this will be short.
Yes radical, I believed fairness had to win out in the end and I invited a trusted gp into the mix thinking he would be the catalyst. He picked up the denial of my bully and ran with it because it was easier for him that way. He was a catalyst alright, from trauma to life ruining trauma.
Radical I might copy and paste your message for my friend because though I have been trying to communicate to her that she doesn't realise how bad things might turn, without first hand experience she is simply oblivious. As we all were.
She says management love this guy... this guy has had 2 harassment cases taken against him before and a man has tried to kill himself because of his management....... but management have invested in him and they can't have him fail!!!!!
What the *?
So,
This manager has a strong track record of damaging others, and a strong track record of getting away with it so feels justified and entitled to do whatever they like.
This person also has full backing of management.
How can someone push back against those odds?
They can't.
Its not about right and wrong, its about staying safe and avoiding dangerous situations.
Don't go down the dark alley when you know there are assailants waiting for you, go another route and stay safe.
Employment law is more of a deterrent, it doesn't actually punish those who transgress regardless.
Quote from: thetruth on October 17, 2018, 08:57:39 AM
She says management love this guy... this guy has had 2 harassment cases taken against him before and a man has tried to kill himself because of his management....... but management have invested in him and they can't have him fail!!!!!
What the *?
I agree with every word Rainagain said and I've been in similar situations more than once. Heard literally these exact same words from management about work place abusers. More than once. So I guess this reaction from different managements is part of the abuse cycle itself and is a clear pattern too.
I guess there aren't many options. One can stay put at work if the dangers are known: if your friend understands that this is abuse and maybe, just maybe, if the abuser doesn't get bored the level of abuse might stay constant and it might be hard but bearable. Still, there may be long term repercussions for her. But if she's fully aware of the risks and is willing to take them on then that's one choice she can maybe make.
But this is an abuser who's fully backed by management so it's easy to imagine he might get bored and escalate his behavior more and more. This is a real danger.
Walking away is so hard. I know. None of us want to believe such evil behavior is out there, and that we have no protection from it.
Maybe your friend can write down the pros and cons of staying put and re-assess them on a weekly basis? Even if it was worth it to stay put last week, it's always possible to change one's mind.
I'm sorry for your friend and for the stress I'm sure it's causing you too. How insanely triggering it must be... so I really respect you for being there for your friend, that's no small feat of courage and kindness on your part.
It's a dangerous place to be for your friend. Probably there are no good outcomes, that's what happens when a sadistic abuser picks a person as a favorite. I'm sorry she has to go through that.
Thanks again, Rainagain and Ah.
It is triggering.
I'm finding it challenging to assess just how much danger she is in. The worst case scenario is she finds herself with a life ruining psychological injury. Neither she nor I know what the chances of that are.
I ask questions to try to ascertain the stress level already being experienced but the responses are varied and contradictory. She may be denying its true extent to shield het ego.
For me personally, I knew things were bad when I couldn't turn off the thinking at night and sleep was an impossibility.
I'm still trying to gauge where she is in this. To be honest she tells you a bit then closes up. She says things like, he won't beat me, he is weak, etc.
Quote from: Kizzie on October 12, 2018, 11:58:15 PM
Most workplaces have harassment policies and processes - maybe suggest she check with HR and if there are she can lodge a complaint.
Hi Kizzie,
I made this suggestion just as you advised. She says management don't want to hear it. She has so many reasons to not do as you say. I pointed this out and said she is playing their game for them if she doesn't speak up.
As long as no one speaks up they'll gladly assume he is not annoying anyone. She actually is playing the bullies game for him.
But this is the problem. She deeply believes speaking up will be counter-productive . We all know this fear. I held it for a year before I spoke up. Then doctor, family, management happily suggest you are being irrational/over sensitive, after you have stomached a year of abuse to see if it would go away on its own.
You know?
Until it is mentioned everyone wants to pretend it isn't there. After it is mentioned people will endeavour to make it your fault and not theirs (the bully's)
Why is bullying so readily excused? I think because dealing with it is so much hassle. People in general would prefer it if you were being over sensitive because it would mean less chance of having to confront the abuser. And this includes your nearest and dearest.
Men aren't supposed to be able to be victims of bullying, even though they are only human. I'm living the effects of real events, but it seems these effects are not supposed to be lived by men. I can't get the words right now.
Its all about power.
An employee has no power over managers, that is exactly why bullies scramble up the greasy pole, so they can have power over others.
The checks and balances are meant to be employment law and the unions, these are ineffective so the power imbalance remains.
The law tends to maintain the edge employers have over employees in order that the world keeps turning the way the powerful want.
No matter how nice you are, how industrious, how dedicated and successful, the power imbalance means you can be preyed upon and there is no way to fight back.
A rabbit understands this and runs from the fox.
People often don't see how things really are until they have been chewed up.
5 years ago I was a union rep, I would have fought, in fact I did.
Now I say, start running and don't look back, the bullies/sociopaths/inadequate personalities will always get you in the end.
While I was busy doing a good job the vile people were accumulating power and allies. They were unassailable.
You don't have to like it or think its right and proper, you just have to accept the world is dangerous and run from foxes.
I thought I was taking a stand for what is right, now I am pretty much wrecked.
I'd say my advice to move on and find safety might look like cowardice, but it comes from hard won experience.
The rabbit that runs isn't a coward, it just fully understands what it is to truly be a rabbit. And what the nature of the fox is.
And dear thetruth, for heavens sake don't try to refight your battles through your friend, I lost my fight, you lost yours, your friend can still get away without permanent injury. That is the best outcome that can be achieved.
Quote from: Rainagain on October 18, 2018, 01:35:41 PM
And dear thetruth, for heavens sake don't try to refight your battles through your friend, I lost my fight, you lost yours, your friend can still get away without permanent injury. That is the best outcome that can be achieved.
:yeahthat: As painful as it may be to witness, your friend has to go their path to get out of this situation.
Thanks,
All very true. Insightful. The problem is the truth that you describe so well is probably very seldom understood by a person who hasn't already been chewed up and damaged.
So it's now a case of, for me I mean, how to manage the psychological injury suffered, but also how to manage the deep need for the truth to be heard. I live in a community where the misrepresentation cultivated around me and about me following my attempts to stand up for myself, now define me.
Do you know what I mean? I am defined by their lies and the stress I exhibited.
..... I think I am in a flashback. I'm in psychological pain. My mind can't process the complex mess of injustices. I saw the doctor who helped create this situation for me on Sunday. Talk about a trigger. He is retired now. He has no idea the problems I have thanks to him. But this has been building for weeks.
Quote from: thetruth on October 18, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
So it's now a case of, for me I mean, how to manage the psychological injury suffered, but also how to manage the deep need for the truth to be heard. I live in a community where the misrepresentation cultivated around me and about me following my attempts to stand up for myself, now define me.
managing psychological injury - check Pete Walker's Managing Emotional Flashbacks. Here in the glossary http://www.outofthestorm.website/cptsd-glossary/ there's the pdf of it. None of this made too much sense to me till I bought his book just last week.
Allowing our truth to be heard: it can be very cathartic to write a letter you will never send to this doctor and post it on here http://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?board=43.0 At least everybody on the forum can read it and it really does seem to lower the anger or pain or both that we carry.
Quote from: thetruth on October 18, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
All very true. Insightful. The problem is the truth that you describe so well is probably very seldom understood by a person who hasn't already been chewed up and damaged.
So it's now a case of, for me I mean, how to manage the psychological injury suffered, but also how to manage the deep need for the truth to be heard. I live in a community where the misrepresentation cultivated around me and about me following my attempts to stand up for myself, now define me.
Do you know what I mean? I am defined by their lies and the stress I exhibited.
I think I know exactly what you mean. I'm in a similar situation. It's a hard place to be. I bet you're in a very tough spot.
I wish I could take it away from you. It's crazy making, all these lies and people's blindness. For what it's worth I'm completely 100% with you. It's very hard to see how dangerous some people can be before it happens to you.
I am defined by their lies
Believe me, I know what those of you who have been violated in this way are saying. The harm to me in my community is huge and sometimes the injustice burns and eats me up.
But I take issue with this. Other people do and think what they like but we define ourselves. You might say what difference does it make if we are paying an awful price in pubic humiliation, blame and ostracism, and sometimes I feel that way too.
But I told the truth at a very high price to myself. I didn't knuckle under to coercion and violence despite that price. I wrote in my journal "X could destroy me, will she?" and still told the truth.
I didn't cow or betray myself or all the other targets, past and future, much later when I was pressured to back down to a moderated version of the truth which would have allowed a degree of vindication. In doing so I could have undone some of that harm to myself and reopened some doors of people and things I cared about. Doors that will always be closed to me. I wasn't prepared to "negotiate" the truth about severe abuse.
That is what defines me about what happened. That is what I feel about myself about what happened and the feeling is self-respect.
In a community the size of the one I live in, with the status of some of the enablers, the repercussions have been huge and affected much wider areas of my life than I could have anticipated. But when it comes to what defines me I made a choice that my actions define me, not what people believe about them.
There is SO much great advice here and yes, a lot of the justice sought will depend on the actions by the person being abused and the presence of a functioning body for grievances based on my experience.
I have two key points to offer and a lovely story of empowerment. First, document, document, document, then file a grievance. Next, a boss from a few years ago (my first job placement) was an NPD (running classic smear campaign), clever but not clever enough. I always met with him when others were present and I started to tape record our meetings (he knew I was serious at this point). My reasoning was short term memory loss. There was no functioning grievance authority so I rode it out till i could leave honorably.
I did have a dream job and I protected it with flying colors! On one production the tech director decided to come up to me close (in my face) and said, ‘you will do as i tell you or you will have no work in this town’ — mind you he did this in front of 20 witnesses (he forgot it was 2007 not 1950). I documented the incident filed a grievance with the union board and returned to the work I loved. Yes, on occasion this man would try to run me over with a forklift and stare at me with pure anger — luckily he was in anger management. Eventually his miocroaggressions dissipated and work went back to normal. Me, I was fine, every time I showed up for work it was about me going after what i loved about being there: sweating with the crew, laughing, having each others back, calling eachother out on lies. Eventually I did leave because it was time for me to move on. A key factor is connecting with your colleagues authentically, if possible.
I hope my story offers some reprieve to those in the thralls of harassment — something that got me through everyday was focusing on what I loved and treating the other stuff like a routine cleanup —- garbage duty :)
One more thing about garbage duty,... when the crazy making got to me, it messed me up — in those instances I reached out for a reality check: found a good T or counselor (first responder), if not in the same community then online, overseas — called someone who knew me — once my head was straight, I set up a plan of action to keep it straight till i was out of the dark hole.
:) Take care and sending you positive thoughts for justice
Hi Milk,
Thanks a lot for your response here. I will respond in time when I can.
Truth, you are welcome.
In fact, I reread the post you made and the responses — there is more I would like to share about this topic: power imbalances, how empowerment can heal trauma, femininity expressed in a masculine workplace and so on,... (new thread possibly) I was fortunate to have worked in a male dominated field for ten years coming into my own as a woman; reliving trauma with all sorts of men, some supportive, some crossing boundaries, all the while being comfortable in my own skin (mind, spirit, body) sometimes the EF triggers would take hold but they didn't last long nor influence the core of who I was in that workspace—- finding the line between healthy banter and oppressive behaviors that needed to be called out.
I hope your friend is able to restore her power through healthy connections that push her out of the trauma.
Thanks Milk,
At the moment my friend says she is managing quite well. I'm starting to think this guy isn't having just as damaging effect on her as I experienced in my case.
As for myself, I am in a period of calm and I am relatively untroubled by the injustices of my harassment right now. I still have to think about them every morning and repeatedly every day but it isn't a crippling painful reliving. This time last week I was in the grip of the unbearable thinking about the same material. As Rainagain said, it comes and goes. Thank God it comes and goes, if it didnt sometimes go away and ease off, it would be intolerable. I had a very prolonged flashback in the spring and it drove me to the edge. It was my most painful flashback and it came almost 5 years after being made redundant from the job where the bullying took place. I could barely believe the intensity and duration of the complex painful thinking. I hope and pray I do not have to go through another such bout.
I am a period of calm and I am appreciating it.
Hi The truth,
Off topic question. What do you mean by the term’redundant’? This is not a common term used in the U.S.
Edit: I looked it up - to let go - That’s right, its a Kiwi term.
By the way, hearing of your calm after such an ordeal makes me happy for you. The loss you described from five years ago sounds painful, the choices you made over the years lead you to where you are now. I experienced a loss many years ago as well, the choices along the way were hard and often times I was disturbed by the ugliness - but there was always the present, and here we are. May we (universal) continue to grow into our authentic lives.
One thing I enjoy is looking up the definitions of terms because my mind over the years can change the understanding of a word and eventually misuse it, until I look at the definition again.
Respicere; respect - to look at, the ability to see someone as he/she is, aware.
Hi The truth.
Your friend might not be in the same situation you experienced.
There are a couple if things the PTSD mind can do which I find interesting.
The first is to recognise a dangerous situation, sometimes where there isn't one, we have become highly reactive.
The second is to try to recreate the same danger we were harmed by in order to (hopefully) get a better outcome and thus gain control over the original tragedy.
I have done both of these myself, long before I got any kind of diagnosis or understanding, I was like a hamster going round in a wheel.
Looking back I was sad/funny. Helpless.
Just a thought.
Rainagain, I completely understand the hamster in the wheel visual. This can also be ascribed to creating narratives (assuming the state of the hamsters mind) that fill in gaps of knowledge thus the spinning (groundless perceptions) till the wheel stops in the moment and recognizes the present (unaware of ones surroundings and finding a way forward).
Yes, there can be perceived dangers, luckily the frontal lobes can come to the rescue! Following in the steps of a PTSD mind, in the healing phase, the frontal lobes can differentiate between what is false and what is true, especially when manipulation is at play. The key here, is the way forward, how to go about it in a healthy manner — ‘to get a better outcome’.
Perhaps, break it down. What variables are at play here?The hamster, looking at the hamster, and the intentions from each position.
In one instance the hamster realizes its actions as sad, funny, and helpless. This is a critical point of awareness and nothing to be ashamed of.
In another, the hamster is spinning in the wheel to build momentum; it realized a fault in the cage, the inertia created from the spinning could release the lock, and it does. (Gaining control of the original tragedy)
The story of Platos Cave is another frame for interpreting this scenario. And this leaves us with ‘choice,’ how to move forward; its personal, collective, and requires respect for any real change to happen.
Rainagain, your thought is appreciated. I had to write this out to engage with it. Yes, it’s definitely a discussion for another thread (great point Contessa)
Quote from: Rainagain on November 07, 2018, 04:26:16 PM
The first is to recognise a dangerous situation, sometimes where there isn't one, we have become highly reactive.
The second is to try to recreate the same danger we were harmed by in order to (hopefully) get a better outcome and thus gain control over the original tragedy.
Brilliant lighbulb moment! Obviously a discussion for another thread, but Rainagain... I hadn't thought of it in those specific separate ways before. Well put.
The second is to try to recreate the same danger we were harmed by in order to (hopefully) get a better outcome and thus gain control over the original tragedy.
I have done both of these myself, long before I got any kind of diagnosis or understanding, I was like a hamster going round in a wheel.
This is an important part of the truth, it is the empowering part, it allows us to see what we need to change, it is a valuable opportunity. But it's not the whole truth. We can never entirely insulate ourselves from abuse, imagining we can and trying to change and adapti according to just part of the truth can be dangerous in itself.
What doing so can obscure from view is the beauty, justice and kindness that is also a part of humanity. I know I need to actively seek that out. But a real danger in doing so is seeking to hide from myself, ever again, the cruelty that is part of being human.
I don't know about you, but I need to be able to be alive to both, and seeing abuse as something that was ever within my control makes me vulnerable. That doesn't mean that what happened hasn't given me an opportunity to grow in the ways I had already sorely needed to - but some people are making their way by hurting and exploiting. Others are hitching a ride with them for their own reasons, others are "naïve". Those who are very well insulated from the harsher realities of life can often get away with wilful blindness, unless something makes them vulnerable....