Hi all - this is the first topic I've ever started... I'm nervous. But I think the pain and loneliness of what I'm experiencing is far greater than my fear. I'd love some advice...or anything...or to hear if someone else went through something like this that is/was similar, just so I feel less alone. (I'm also so sorry if this is long...)
I was diagnosed C-PTSD last winter and I'm in therapy. Over the last year, I've slowly been opening up and confronting some family members about it and its many causes, but it's not gone well (and reading through all the FOO I finally have an idea of how common this really is).
I was the SG for my older siblings while they themselves experienced many shades of abuse/neglect from our parents, which I also experienced too. I was very much shamed for being emotional in any way, shape, or form, often singled out/ganged up on for this a lot – and for my entire life, the unspoken family "story"/"rule" is that only my older sister experienced abuse/neglect, the rest of us turned out just fine (not true, as I discovered going to therapy last year...)
Despite the healing this diagnosis has brought to my life, the denial/manipulation is so re-triggering. Unexplained flashbacks have improved, but now family is a new and bewildering source of triggers, during recovery, and it interferes deeply with my life regularly now. It's definitely beaten up my marriage...bless hubby for being so resilient (the reason I sought treatment/diagnosis in the first place: saving my marriage, as my husband would, unknowingly to both of us, trigger me with some things).
On the bright side, I had my younger sister's support...for a time. She has been the only real good, close, and safe relationship I've had with a family member (though to be honest, I always felt close to my mom and older sister, but since opening up about my mental health, this illusion shattered). We've even considered ourselves best friends since high school and have been extremely close. We could be ourselves around one another, talk about anything, and feel mutually like we never experienced judgment. We looked after each other better than all other members of our family imho.
But then things began to change. She's always been a bit of a people pleaser, a chameleon, showing different faces to different people. I began to see fawning/enabling traits in her around family members and the more I learned about family dynamics/roles. But I never thought it would go down this road. Even though I've mostly trusted her and felt we could talk openly/honestly about other family members (and about pretty much anything under the sky), I outright asked for her confidence and to keep things from my mom and older sister for now, so I could talk/ease them into the topic more slowly when they were ready, and so no one could get hurt.
Then communications with my mother and other sister started to get strange, as if they were addressing things she told them about what I told her. Worse, they both started to manipulate/guilt me with it - especially my older sister (who I suspect is uNPD), who tried to devolve me and my younger sister's relationship into "me using her as my therapist." I think she might have been jealous of our sister relationship for a long time ??? - though we had a fairly close relationship ourselves talking about her issues very frequently, before she started alienating me and pushing me away.
During an intense marathon conversation a few months ago, she said more stuff that seemed based on things I'd only told my younger sister. Based on things my younger sister told older sister too, she tried to project all my problems onto my husband and paint him as an abuser, and then said we were both "mean people" (because my husband confronted her on saying racially problematic things a couple times and I didn't get involved). The worst part: she questioned/minimized memories of my abuse/neglect that would come anywhere near to what she experienced. She also undermined it all by claiming I wasn't seeing the right therapist, even though she had been through this very same thing with other FOO and aired these very same types of grievances with me before I was diagnosed. (So this all could have only happened to her...? Impossible that it could have happened to me?)
My mom, on the other hand, just played the "guilt" hand: acting sad, hurt, the one who had truly been wronged (and this happened out of nowhere before I even talked to her about anything), and then completely avoided the subject and went out of her way not to talk to me much, but especially about this. I skipped family holidays this year for protection from all this, and got very negative reactions when I did. Nothing but a sense of hurt and from her, no sympathy, as if trying to goad me into saying "I'm sorry" and "Are you alright?" (When I never got those questions from her/older sister amidst all this).
When I next saw my younger sister after all that (back in November before the holidays) she admitted to me that she did betray my trust. I didn't even make her feel bad about it or guilt her, but expressed how saddened I was that she was so overwhelmed she felt the need to vent to family members who weren't ready to hear about this yet—and that I had to hear it from them, which was really hard for me. I didn't express to her that they were using what she told them in hurtful/manipulative ways because I didn't want to even come close to "talking trash" (and she could possibly tell them all that, too, and this would all just become worse). I told her she could always trust me and be honest with me, and speak her true feelings (and have never given her reason not to!). I didn't want this to be a blow for her...in fact, I want to be a good older sibling to her, to let her know that my love for her is unconditional when my love from other family members has been conditional.
She burst into tears saying she had been overwhelmed (understandable!) because my revelations really change the family narrative, and it is a shock. I comforted her and gave her my sympathy/empathy (funny how I'm doing all the comforting...). But I received nothing from her in return that gave me any notion she felt regret or remorse for breaking my trust.
In fact, since then, she has been defensive of other family members, has somewhat echoed hurtful things my uNPD older sister said to me (even projecting onto my husband too as if he's an abuser, even asking if he hit me??? which is ridiculous - and all this based on talking about the things he does that unknowingly trigger me). She even became angry with me after a text exchange discussing things between me and my mother (after which she asked that we don't see each other for a month because she was overwhelmed, a request I respected without complaint or batting an eye).
I can't help but think she's been talking to all of them behind my back about everything and that breaking my trust wasn't ever because she was overwhelmed. It's because she secretly disagrees with my experiences, or someone is influencing her to be skeptical....my older sister? My mother? . We've always had a trusting relationship, why would she be scared to open up about being overwhelmed now? It all didn't add up.
Everything since that moment has been different. I'm feeling like I've lost my best and most supportive friend, my younger sister, someone I considered a "rock" my whole life, to the influence/toxicity of other family members. I wonder if this is her way of trying to run around, please everyone, make us all happy, true to a "fawning" nature I see in her more and more.
I sometimes feel like I'm breaking and that this is all my fault. I'm torn between providing her with a positive presence to counteract the toxic ones from other family members, and being increasingly more and more triggered by the loss of trust, having EF's afterward that debilitate me and affect my marriage. I'm also deeply torn between LC or moving towards NC with little sister, and it's breaking my heart....especially because I've never been close with anyone as I have with her, besides my husband, and I have very severe issues with closeness and trust. I feel alone and desolate and without family. And often wonder if I'm going crazy.
I had an especially bad EF the other day when little sister suddenly opened up about her own relationship problems with her BF. Then, she said, "Please keep this from mom and don't tell her." After she broke my confidence? After she shared details about my relationship and lots of other things, and I asked her not to....and then that info I told her was used to shame/guilt me/undermine my progress?
Sorry for this long and messy message. This has really been tearing me apart...advice, commiseration, perspective, anyone who's been through the same thing, I'm all ears. Is she just fawning? Or is there some NPD I never noticed (in my mom too)? Or both fawning and NPD? Or should I not distance myself? But what about the triggers and EFs caused by her that are increasing when I'm mostly doing well at other times...?
One of the very few things I thought I'd never lose in my life, I'm losing...thoughts appreciated.... and thank you in advance :'(
Hi, dreamriver. I can't specifically address what you're going through right now because my family structure and problems therein are completely different from yours, but I did want to tell you that I read your post, and greatly empathise with your struggle and your feeling of loss in discovering that someone you have been so close to is unable to support you in the way you need. Dealing with CPTSD is hard, and unfortunately a lot of people can't really do it even though they are suffering. You are brave and strong in confronting your sufferings and doing what you can to improve your life. I hope that writing about it here helped at least a little bit and that you can continue the important work you are doing to try to heal yourself.
Really sorry to hear you have lost the support and validation your younger sister used to provide and worse that she seems to be siding with those who hurt you. It's a terrible feeling to realize you are essentially without family connections, are not safe with them and that you are the scapegoat.
My family of origin (FOO) did/does the same and what helped me to figure out whether it was actually me being mean, over sensitive, selfish, ungrateful .... was going to our sister site Out of the FOG. I learned the terms for my family's behaviour -- triangulation (playing family members off against one another); use of fear, obligation and guilt (FOG) to manipulate me and my sibling; smear campaigns to shape the narrative against me and for them; gaslighting .... all the tactics an NPD family gets tangled up in and that are so soul crushing when you are the scapegoat and the family directs it at you.
OOTF may help shore up your confidence that it is NOT you, you are not mean or bad or anything your FOO tries to paint you as, it did me. They also have some good suggestions for how to step back or even away from the abuse and chaos of NPD behaviour. I eventually went NC and LC and while it was hard it was also life saving as I see it now. The information, validation and support there and here will hopefully help you to get your feet back under you and to feel less alone. :grouphug:
Thank you for the kind words Bach, and for your empathy. Writing here did help! I'm considering a recovery letter/journal but it seems like so much work....
And thank you too, Kizzie, especially for the Out of the FOG suggestion...I will have to check that out. Do you have any specific recommendations?
I'm still very much in those stages of trying to convince myself (sometimes successfully...sometimes unsuccessfully...) that the way my family sees me and my life might not be the truth. It's like my logical brain knows they're not right, but the deep emotional/heart of me doesn't, it's freaking out. I feel like I must be mean, selfish, and ungrateful if this is happening: if they're distancing from me, OK with losing me, pressuring me to change myself and my life, or if they indeed think I am a mean person just for saying the truth, then they're right. I'm wrong.
If I'm finally losing one of the few - arguably even one of the only - emotional rocks in my life I never thought I would lose, then this means I must have done something wrong and I must be the one to back down and fix it all. Though that doesn't feel right...it's the only clarity I have to hang onto, is a vague feeling that this is all so unfair, though it's easy for my brain to say "maybe it is fair and you're just kidding yourself."
Or maybe I never noticed that my sister's fawning behavior went this deep with family members all along? And I've always kidded myself that we had this closeness, and she's gone against my trust all my life (it's possible), and reality is finally just surfacing. Torn about going LC or NC with my younger sister... I feel so bad for her about what life will be like for her when it happens (getting sucked up into the family dynamics by herself). But I guess her "fawning" could mean she never had true empathy for me (if she broke my trust and feels she can do certain things in our friendship/relationship, but I can't)?
And if someone isn't empathizing with my situation, I need to empathize with myself first or no one will....
What hits me so hard about this is that I have so very few other people. I feel so alone. I have my husband, though being supportive in an emotional sense at every turn is not his forte. (Very supportive in other ways tho). But if my husband and I disagree or even have a small fight, or if one of the both of us is grumpy, the thought that I don't have anybody else (no family) somewhere out there in the universe for support can make me spiral out for days at at time with EF's, shame, guilt, and no one to talk to but a therapist. And I feel crazy.
Anyways, thanks y'all and thank you for your responses :grouphug:
Hello dreamriver,
I was looking through OOTS after a long time away, searching for something I could relate to, when I came upon your post. I live in Germany and my FOO is in the states, for a good reason - the distance is very helpful for me. I come from a large family, 11 children, and I am towards the end of the line. Family has been the main part of my identity while growing up, with the family secrets keeping us bound together. As a young adult I began to distance myself, sensing that there was something harmful in my contact with FOO members. Finally I and my family (husband and three children) moved to Germany and it has been a relief to be so far away.
There is one person from FOO, my younger sister, with whom I have renewed the close relationship we had in our childhood. She is the only one who I have been able to tell about the CPTSD and the traumatic memories I have uncovered in the past ten years of therapy. This has been a great comfort and encouragement to me and to her.
About the time I began therapy, this sister was diagnosed with Parkinsons, suffering at the same time from symptoms of CPTSD: In the past few years I have begun NC with all except this one sister. Now, with the situation with Covid, I am faced with the very real situation of losing her, since she is unable to care for herself and since last year lives in a home for the elderly (though she is still in her early 60's). Covid has in fact already been diagnosed in a few of the residents there.
Besides the concern of losing this sister through illness, I see her drawing closer to the other FOO for support, which is understandable in this time of some crisis. Now she wants to agree with their view of our family, and my telling of the truth, at the same time. In this way I have the feeling that I may lose her and the support I felt we gave one another.
In some ways I suppose I have already taken steps to remove/distance myself, and let go of the relationship I had there. It feels like another area of loss, to add to the others that the CT has caused in my life. I give myself more chance to grieve -
QuoteWhat hits me so hard about this is that I have so very few other people. I feel so alone. I have my husband, though being supportive in an emotional sense at every turn is not his forte. (Very supportive in other ways tho). But if my husband and I disagree or even have a small fight, or if one of the both of us is grumpy, the thought that I don't have anybody else (no family) somewhere out there in the universe for support can make me spiral out for days at at time with EF's, shame, guilt, and no one to talk to but a therapist. And I feel crazy.
I too have no-one other than my H, S and my T in real life I can talk to DreamRiver. I used to feel ashamed but I came to see it wasn't because people don't like me, that I couldn't make friends, it's that I just don't want anyone to come too close so I let friendships go to a certain point then let them drift away.
And then I realized I don't want anyone close for a reason, and it was kind of a relief to acknowledge that it wasn't me per se (i.e., someone people didn't want to be friends with), it was what had happened to me and how I felt around people. And what we learned about being around people is why we have difficulties with relationships.
When you chose to contest your family's behaviour you are essentially taking the family photo off the wall and smashing it. You are upsetting/countering the reality they want to believe in so they ostracize/attack/invalidate you to defend that. That's how NPD works, but you aren't wrong or mean or any of the other things you/they are telling you.
You asked about recommendations for Out of the FOG and I don't have anything specific, the whole web site and forum should help reinforce what I've written above. :yes: I hope it helps reinforce that
it really isn't you :grouphug:
JRose, I am so sorry to hear your S has Parkinson's and that you may be losing her as a source of validation and support. We do suffer a lot of losses because of CT -- I hope being here and able to share about that will help even if just a little. :grouphug:
Kizzie, yes, just posting my comment to dreamriver's post already affected me positively. Even more than talks with my therapist (who supports me very strongly), since writing about my S yesterday, I experienced a great uplifting of my feelings about myself as a whole. I am very grateful for this opportunity to be a part of this forum. It is a valuable opportunity for me to be confirmed by others who know and understand these subjects. Thanks!
:thumbup: and :grouphug: JRose
Oh dear, I didn't realize anyone had written in this thread for weeks :aaauuugh: :'( Thank you Kizzie and JRose for your replies! And sorry for the lag. (I'm not getting email notifications for threads I follow anymore, don't know how to fix that....)
It's a sweet relief to hear from you JRose and to know I'm not the only one facing something similar to this. Obviously it seems like I'm in a phase of this that you were in years ago, when you were a young adult and moved to Germany to get that first distance from your family. Right now I'm experiencing the first real "rupture" where I'm absorbing the shock of the utter, hard, bare bones truth, the real feeling that family cannot and will not respect or respond to healthy boundaries or even believe my story, and I'm trying to get that distance up as painful as it is. It's certainly been re-traumatizing, because all the very early childhood dynamics are just being put on re-play again.
While it's true that I left home when I was 16 due to a sense of deep unhappiness that I couldn't put a finger on, my family convinced me it was sort of just my own "teenage rebelliousness" and I absorbed and internalized the blame for it. It wasn't a true rupture. Therapy recently showed me, though, that my reasons for wanting to leave were much more serious: I was playing the scapegoat and lost child for my family simultaneously, and the pain was too much.
I'm the middle-child. We have very strong Euro, Latinx, and religious roots that have always fostered a sense of extreme family closeness and putting family first no matter what. It's ingrained in me. SA, PA, and EA from an uNPD/BPDf shattered my family but in the wake of that, we fled and became closer than ever for a sense of safety and to reinforce those family ideas. It was sort of like a "family secret."
Trauma bonded us and people outside our family would always seem off-limits or different because they didn't go through what we went through, that's not where true friendship would be found: it would only be within the family. I was always comfortable, happy, and even joyous around family despite everything, because we had escaped the REAL abuse and we could never be hurt again; it was all over, in my mind. The family closeness turned out to be a terrible illusion, at least for me. It was familiarity - not safety and comfort, sadly (well, if you played by the rules, it was.)
Just like with you JRose, I have a feeling that my younger sister will come around again to try and foster closeness with me. I think part of her believes me for sure. But like your story, though, I know that she will also try her hardest to remain part of the family dynamic too, and please all parties to keep up relationships with everyone. I know that what she says and does behind my back to keep all these ties, though, is far too hurtful, as I've already learned - I've worked through a lot of grief and heartbreak since my message a couple months ago (I'm certainly not at the end of it though...).
But I finally clearly see the hoovering, enabling, and triangulating she has participated in to try to push me into closer ties with my eM and uNPDsis again, all so she can feel like we are a whole and happy family for her own self-medicating purposes. I understand that and feel for her, but being a part of that dynamic I know also requires her to gaslight, deny, and minimize my diagnosis and the abuse I myself went through, because it doesn't fit the family narrative. It also requires me to be the scapegoat and the outlet for all their own pain, denial, and anger so they can feel better, and that's not what a true best friend does. That's not true family. No one who truly loves you would want you to undergo that and that's really hard to internalize and process.
So I know somewhere deep down that the closeness we had as sisters and "best friends," was also a terrible illusion in a way and it can't ever be a thing again, it's over. The grief can be excruciating and I've often felt like I'm tumbling through a void now that I don't have either her or my family. (Like you said Kizzie, I only have my DH now, and a close friend that I would consider a "new" sister, thankfully. But besides that, hardly anyone else in terms of closeness.)
I'm so sorry to hear about Parkinson's and your sister slipping into the influences of your family again. Parkinson's is so difficult! (our landlord and friend developed it, it's certainly something that requires support and can also cloud the mind). It sounds like we are both dealing with grief - only in very different ways. If you have more about it to write, please do; I can relate to it a lot and I'd love to be of any support or presence that I can; all I've really learned is that grief is a wild ocean tide that couldn't possibly be controlled....you just anchor yourself in and hope for the best when it hits you and then eventually passes, only to return again....having people present to understand and support is the only salve to the pain, people who don't want to solve, minimize, or take away from it. People who get it. :)
Thanks for your words too, Kizzie :hug: This sort of thing is being discussed somewhere else on the forum (Inner Critic I think?) about how we CPTSDers see ourselves as unsociable and unlikable, and we tell ourselves that we can't make friends or extend our circle easily - when part of it is that our protective walls can be higher and more formidable than we realize they are, and people notice them and stay away. (Or we're scared of showing how much we really desperately want and need emotional connection, but we're scared of it at the same time, the rejection can be too painful...)
My husband is a fearless extrovert, that's the only reason why our relationship has budded at all I'm sure (and those tend to be the sorts of people I can bond with) - those walls didn't daunt him when they tend to alienate everyone else. But outside of my family my inner dialogue can be, "no one makes the effort to get to know me, contact me out of the blue, set up hangouts, tries to be friends with me, etc. what's wrong with me??? I'll be alone forever" I've peeled enough layers back to realize this isn't really my fault :) and even now that my family is added to that list, I'm working on internalizing that that's not my problem, either; but also, working on being proud to be a loner at heart and not hate myself for that.
I've gotten tons of help and insight from OOTF, so thanks again Kizzie! It's been a shocking, eye-opening, but relieving ride :)
:thumbup: :grouphug:
Im so sorry to hear all this Dreamriver. I am going thru the EXACT same thing right now, thats how I found your post. My little brother and I had a love/hate relationship growing up (I was NPD moms scapegoat and he was the golden child), but we were very close too because we only had each other, dad was a hard core abusive alcoholic and mom is severely mentally ill. We have gotten REALLY close over the last year as I have confided in him about abuse from neighbor boys when we were young. Then the other day, he was very minimizing and condescending. It is breaking me.
Im sorry for the rambling, and you may not see this because this post is a few months old. But I wanted to tell you, I can understand the pain behind your loss. I really hope that maybe things have calmed down and you have more peace than you did. I saw a response from Kizzie where she said that unfortunately alot of us have lost alot of people due to the trauma and dysfunction we have experienced. She is so right on. That is absolutely what has been bothering me. My brother was the only blood relative left....I only have my husband, daughter and very few friends who are supportive. I also NEVER thought I would be losing my brother....I told everyone there was no way that could ever happen, and then here we are.
Ok, no more rambling. Im standing with you, saying you are NOT in the wrong, this is not your fault. I know thats hard to swallow when everything was always our fault....but its isnt you. Sending hugs if thats ok, if not, just know you are not alone.
Thanks finding peace, it's great to hear from you! And to just so happen to find this forum and see your post not too too long after you posted it ;D
I'm so sorry you're getting the third degree from your brother....it is so discouraging, disorienting, and confusing when FOO butters you up to trust them only to kick you while you're down at the drop of a hat.
This forum and OOTF are both so helpful in putting logical context to it all and to understand why FOO does this. But the hardest part is it doesn't take away the pain and grief. I have no solutions for the pain and grief you're feeling as of now. Only that you can only ride it out, and that it does get better little by little, over time....but to keep doing the right thing, and that's looking out for yourself and protecting yourself where FOO fails and has failed to do so.
You seem to be in that pain and so am I. Both siblings that I have trusted have succumbed to FOO dysfunction very severely and I'm having to cut ties for now. A lot has happened since I wrote this first message and what's happened now is my non-PD sibling has been sucked into the disordered behavior of my other uNPD sib. I've lost her. Maybe for good. Along with my disordered sib, but I was closer with the other.
It's early for me in my journey and I, too, feel broken. I've heard from many others though who go no contact or low contact, or whatever works for their boundaries so they can heal from their CPTSD, that it does get easier. I don't see the light at the end if the tunnel quite yet but I do believe them. My flashbacks and anxiety are much better just cutting them out completely instead of trying to hold onto the corruption just for the sake of getting a tiny smidgeon of good from them for nostalgia's sake and because I love them. It hurts to have to separate from FOO so decisively and it's sad and can make you feel guilty but when you start feeling better, then I think you'll start to realize the true depth of the corruption and that it was really your only choice ....
I also NEVER thought I would lose my younger sib too ☹️ So I totally understand the bewilderment and heart break 💔 and a hug right back to you, finding peace! 🤗 We're not perfect people I'm sure but this sort of treatment at the hands of family nobody deserves, I stand with you too. You've done nothing wrong! Here's to healing and getting out to that better, brighter side of things ❤️
Oh Dreamriver, Im so sorry to hear things have been so hard since you last wrote. I am new, so I dont have as much knowledge and experience as so many other wonderful members here, but the 1 thing I can say, they are right. No one can tell you what is right for you, but if you choose to go low contact or no contact, or like you said, even just strengthen boundaries with them, you do what is best for you. And it is difficult, but it really does get better. I didnt think it would. But when I had to step away from my parents, it was hard. But every day I didnt have them manipulating, gaslighting and blaming me.....it got a little easier. I never thought I could walk away from them, but I was finally able. For me, it saved me.
Whatever you choose to do for you and yourself, we will be right here. Sending a warm and soothing cup of tea if thats ok.
Thanks finding peace :hug: I love tea. So thank you!
There's even more updates since my last message...I had a heated text exchange with this former best friend sibling of mine. It confirmed many things I'd been suspecting. Her words did not sound like her own. It sounded all too much like my uNPDsis speaking straight through her, she said things that I know she wouldn't say unless she'd been very close and talking with her, and I felt her influence.
I had to block her. It hurts too much. All efforts to blame me for everything, no desire to see my feelings or existence. But I'm pretty sure I've lost her. And I need to move on. I just hope and pray that she doesn't become the new scapegoat, because I'm not sure she'd be able to survive.
So very sorry to hear this DreamRiver, it's such a huge loss :hug:
Thank you Kizzie :hug: I'm getting through it!
:thumbup: and :grouphug:
Im so sorry this is where things are going DreamRiver....I just checked in now after being out of town, hence my absence. Sending more tea and some flowers if that helps....
We are here and sitting with you. You are not alone, we support you and will be here when you post again.....
:yeahthat: :grouphug:
Hi all - thanks for being so present and holding the space for me in this thread and at this time :grouphug:
I've decided to go completely NC with all FOO at this time and though I still get into those ruminating/guilt loops, I feel LOADS better (which is in it's own way shocking but that's starting to wear off). My M (who I'm starting to piece together, is very, very covert NPD tendencies) sent me a long email that I'm not even going to read until fall, I've decided. I'm too busy and don't want my time and emotion drained or stolen anymore by the scapegoating, and I'm trying to enjoy all the good things going in my life at present - and there's a lot of good things :yes: I've been in such turbulence... I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but maybe it's time for them to shoulder the uncertainty for a while. It feels cruel but sometimes you gotta be cruel to be kind. Maybe they'll figure some things out during this time of much needed space.
Good for you, dreamriver, for choosing what's best for you :). I am sorry that it's come to this, but I'm sending you lots of support as this is what you needed, and as you said, maybe what they need too. :hug:
I think you are taking really great care of yourself by stepping back for a bit DreamRiver. It takes alot of courage to put ourselves first (even tho sometimes its absolutely imperative). IMO, you have done well by yourself and your FOO, you are right, they may beed this as well. And if nothing else, you get to focus on the good things you said are currently going on in your life.....big hooray for you! I hope these good things help ease some of the pain and uncertainty, and give you something happy to focus on.... :grouphug: if thats ok....
Thanks y'all :grouphug:
Just to quickly share, this article really helped me make the decision...the list part where it says "It's OK to say Goodbye If..."
https://wehavekids.com/family-relationships/Strained-Family-Relationships-When-You-Should-Cut-The-Ties-and-Say-Goodbye
(Is it OK to share articles?)
...and the part where it says that it might be time to part ways if stress is starting to interfere with home and work life. For years it's been affecting both, awfully. I have felt dysfunctional and terrified some days dealing with this and I would be perfectly happy and functioning if this background stuff was just gone.
So yes goodbye, for now :) I hope not forever, but I will accept forever if they needs to be the case.
Definitely OK, encouraged even to share articles DreamRiver :thumbup:
I'm so sorry to hear about Parkinson's and your sister slipping into the influences of your family again. Parkinson's is so difficult! (our landlord and friend developed it, it's certainly something that requires support and can also cloud the mind). It sounds like we are both dealing with grief - only in very different ways. If you have more about it to write, please do; I can relate to it a lot and I'd love to be of any support or presence that I can; all I've really learned is that grief is a wild ocean tide that couldn't possibly be controlled....you just anchor yourself in and hope for the best when it hits you and then eventually passes, only to return again....having people present to understand and support is the only salve to the pain, people who don't want to solve, minimize, or take away from it. People who get it. :)
Hello dreamriver - boy have I been out of the loop! Just as a quick explanation (not an excuse) I was thrown off-track by series of events that came with the Covid crisis; my (grown) daughter came to live with us for a month - lots of EFs there. Then I was sick for literally the whole month of June, following a core-shaking subject in my therapy. Since then I have been on the slow recovery, physically and emotionally. So I missed responding to your (deamriver) very thoughtful response to me! I'm very moved by it - thanks!
I am saddened to hear what you have been going through, and glad to see your steps forward towards protecting yourself from FOO.
I also have not been getting notifications of posts, but found the right box to check, I hope, at the bottom of this page under Attachment and other options. I hope that will help me to keep connected, which I really believe I will benefit from. I am probably also struggling with the familiar reaction in me to distance myself, from everyone, when I am not doing well - grounded in defensive mechanisms learned early on in my life. Sorry again, for the long gap in responding. I will be glad to hear more from you :hug:
Hi JRose! It's great to hear from you. I could hardly be resentful towards anyone not responding in this forum right away, especially hearing the things you've had to deal with, wow! Each of us have life to live.
Any updates on your own situation with your sister? And I'm very sorry to hear you've been so unwell! Though it sounds like it might be good, as therapy is the cause, and can shake things up on the road to healing.... if you're open and willing to share I'd be here to listen.
I am also not getting email notifications! And not sure how to fix that! :Idunno:
Thanks for the understanding and encouragement, dreamriver. This is a lifeline I really need right now.
It's not that I don't have any support in my life, since my husband and I talk about (almost) every aspect of my therapy and ongoing process. Also my three (grown) daughters are very accepting of the need I have to work through things out of my past. It wasn't always this way; for a long time, at the beginning of my therapy in 2012/13 there was the expectation that "now you are all better" to be realized as the first months and then year or so went by. This impossible expectation has finally been clarified and we all know that it is mostly a case of me doing better, probably never all-better.
As time goes on I have had to deal with more new realizations of abuse in my childhood (see my history in my introductory post when you are willing to know more). It then became more apparent to me that ( could not continue to be in contact with FOO as long as they basically would not acknowledge hardly any of this. I have been on the hard path of learning to believe myself - to un-learn condemning myself for all the things that I struggle with inwardly.
I am surely hoping for things to get better as I continue to keep NC, which I extended to my older S last year. With my younger S with Parkinsons I think I was hanging on to a sense of "not being such a bad person" as long as I kept in touch with her. Also she did acknowledge the things I spoke of from my therapy - though now I am beginning to see more signs of what I hear of on this forum, of "fawning" behavior, towards me, and now I have to admit she is doing this with my older S too.
The big difficulty is my S with P, who I feel is greatly in need of support and any encouragement I can give her. She isn't even in a state anymore where she can absorb any more heavy subjects, about me or about herself and our family. So I don't tell her what I really think about our family so often.
The other big struggle is the subject of communication with family, especially this will include my older S, as my younger S's state of health worsens, as it now is. Younger S knows that I have NC with older S, but at some point there will need to be family intervention on behalf of my younger S. This is a traumatic consideration for me - my therapist and I are in constant conversation about this, so I have the needed support!
So much for the FOO subject in my life :stars: really not an easy subject for anyone, as I am now realizing the more I read here.
Just want you to know I've read all your entries, and although I don't think I have anything of relevance to say, I'm extending what care I can over the internet to you and yours. Family relationships can be difficult even without the added stress of illness. Take care. ❤️
Hi JRose - I read your story in your introductory post and a lot resonates....so, so, so much.
*Trigger Warning*
My father was the same with us as kids (all the A's, including SA) and it was only last year that memories started coming back, a few seeping in...it could have been ritual abuse too (we grew up in an extremely guarded religious tradition), at the hands of my sociopathic dad who is far out of my life. Unfortunately I think most of it might of happened in my infancy so solid memories are unlikely to return, but I have memories of regular nightmares, every night, that involved a man hurting me in multiple ways. I have no real memories except for disorienting and wildly out of control emotional and physical pain that surfaces now and again....it is wordless, intense, and accompanied by none of the five senses, except agony. If I could afford a real deal trauma therapist I'm sure that more digging would reveal even more and bring me more answers, but I'm at a financial standstill at present.
Even just opening up a conversation about this possibility, that I might have been abused (it has long been established my older sibling was for sure abused but no one else) with my close best friend/younger sibling, created a huge chasm that slowly built into what it is now: an uncrossable gulf enforced by emotional abuse (gaslighting, minimizing, denial, bullying, etc.) from family that has been sleeping for years since my childhood but has reawoken this past year....all to defend the established narrative: that my older sibling got it the worst, they're the only one who was abused, they require what little love and attention there is to give (specifically from my covert emotionally abusive and highly neglectful mother), and the entire family dynamic swirls and centers on feeding and supplying them both in a cloud of covert narcissism.
I honestly believe all my siblings were abused in some way, though - and my uNPD older sibling, desperate for love in a loveless family (in tandem with my heavily in-denial covert N mother, suppressing her guilt over serious neglect/abuse of all of us and reality itself with meticulous damage control) warped the telling of our childhoods subtly and intentionally over time to help our family look good, and to deny the abuse was that serious (while helping keep all the focus on older sib).
Anyways....I digress....my opening up about the trauma has put me in a similar place as you, a lot of rejection from family. Even talking about the possibility brought on immense distance, mostly at their hands which they deny and blame me for in every open and honest communication I attempt. Even referencing serious neglect from my M that affected all of us was a problem...while my whole fam complains about my M (and everyone) it's not acceptable when I do it, but they can do it all day long (and about each other too).
This year the situation accelerated into an intense climax (just a few weeks ago, actually), where it was suddenly clear my younger sib couldn't absorb or process what I was telling her about abuse I opened up to her about months ago (understandable) but ultimately sided with my M and older sib's narrative that has been established for so long. She has always been kind but a fawning personality, but when confronted, she morphed into a person a hardly knew, ready and willing to use narcissist tactics to bury my plea of hurt and pain as much as possible... and avoid accountability for her actions as an ultimately less than supportive friend and sister, and turning the blame for our crumbling relationship all on me.
This experience also recovered a lot of memories from my childhood of my scapegoat position in the family when very little, and the emotional abuse (and physical/medical neglect) that came with it. Which honestly, is far worse feeling for me to reckon with even to the PA/SA. I look back to myself as a child and it was all too obvious I suffered from anxiety and depression, regardless of the cause, and this was neglected. My other physical medical needs we're often neglected. My older siblings abused me but this was ignored, and when I tried to protest it with parents, golden child older sibs we're protected and the fault of the abuse was mine, I was "too sensitive" and a "weird child." So now, I'm NC with all family indefinitely, who knows when I'll feel up to talking to them again.
The expectation to get better and be better rapidly is something I so relate to as well....my husband can get frustrated. Though he is very supportive. He just doesn't understand that this type of childhood neurologically alters you forever. You are differently-abled and neurodivergent, which is limiting and extremely difficult sometimes but I see some great gifts with it.
And yes, my realization was that for as long as family couldn't acknowledge this discovery (or even just lightly consider it!) about my own traumatic childhood story instead or in addition to my older sister's, I couldn't tolerate being around them. At first the unwillingness to see it as truth or talk about it was unspoken, and they just turned the other way and avoided talking about it, and I could kind of handle and come to terms with that with basic boundaries. But the more I even basically maintained some sort of relationship with them, this willful ignorance transformed into rejection, isolating me from the rest of family, calling me a liar and insane behind my back, questioning my memories or denying them and saying I'm making them up for attention, smear campaigning me, smearing my DH too, saying "I've changed" and implying it in a bad way (this directly from my former best friend/little sister)....when all that started happening contact with them was beyond unbearable. Both my siblings also alleged that my opening up about these issues meant that I was abusing my younger sibling by using her as a therapist (a terrible thing, especially when I stopped talking about my therapy when we were together but then younger sibling expected me to therapize her experiences and even keep secrets from the rest of family!) Despite all this, I regularly doubt myself and think I should open up communication again.
Yes, NC and the long, hard road (which I'm just at the beginning of) of un-condemning and re-validating yourself is so difficult! And it's so much more difficult coming from an enmeshed family, like my own, where the desire to be part of their lives and the fold is like a craving for a drug. I'm not sure how your relationships with family have been, but losing the support of your younger sister in your own case.... harrowing. And I'm so sorry she's not wanting to honestly support you, but instead uphold the family narrative at your expense. This is a choice I still don't understand. And it's all the harder when some family (like your sister, and my own) can be easily seen as kind, good, and having a sliver of empathy and light in them still, and you want to see that and turn attention to that .... but then the ugliness emerges ....
Again I'm so sorry you're in a similar position. It's ultimately up to you if you want to get deeper involved be though you're NC. I think one thing to consider is that your younger S expects unconditional support but can't give that to you in return. Is that worth letting down your boundaries for with the rest of your family too, for this intervention? What's the price of doing so, and what's the payoff? I know it's hard to not be there for your sister but you also need to keep yourself safe. If the rest of your family is taking care of the situation, then maybe that's OK and you can support her with thoughts and prayers from a distance. Still, if you don't think you could live with the idea of not showing your support, then you should follow your instincts there too...and do what feels right. Only you know.
And here I am with a long long message, too long. Take care JRose and thanks for writing....I wish you the best of luck and nothing but good feelings towards you and where you are at in your healing journey ❤️
In answer to the last posts - I'm really moved by your responding today already - means a lot to me!
I will read these thoroughly tomorrow, in the light of day - 'till then - peace JRose
dreamriver, your sending of good feelings are gratefully received :bigwink:
The main thing that strikes me from your message is the big subject of Belonging, of being a part of - something, someone. Isn't that the basis of Bonding, which is the first biggest need in our life and existence? Those people who have their need for basic bonding filled at the onset of their lives, can never understand what it is like to be lacking that!
I try to distance myself from my siblings/FOO, but deep deep inside of me I am still searching for that help-hope-connection-comfort that never was there at the onset of my life. And that gap - that foundational lack in early bonding, I don't think can ever be completely filled. The best my therapist has explained and directed me to seek, is that - I - can best fill that need of mine, by being the loving parent to my lost, hurting parts. I am trying to do this, and get my eyes off the unsatisfactory and probably impossible expectations of help-love-comfort from other sources. Of course love from the people around you is very helpful, but I am able to give this directly to the parts in me. Sometimes this is as simple as a piece of my favorite chocolate :hug: or sitting in the sun when I am sad, or petting my dog, or crying - when I can :'( or, just voicing my indignation and anger! I guess I just stand up for myself, like you are doing when you come against the false things said about you. I find this really great to hear from you, and it can help me when I am faced (in the future) by my FOO to be as honest about my family as you have been.
Hi JRose - belonging, yes! My upbringing was hard, but it always seemed me and younger sib would have each other's backs, no matter what. We "belonged" together, it felt that way for a long time. I think we helped each other survive. Losing that, and in a turn-heel way, ruptured the main sense of family, belonging, and friendship that I had. Worse, having it almost turned into a weapon against you instead of the warm support and love you always thought you would get. The confusion and devastation is indescribable.
Every so often after this heartbreak I find myself reeling with precisely what you describe. I'm missing the nurturing I didn't get ... Which was salved by my younger sib for a time, but not forever. And no doubt for her own very good reasons that I do try to understand, outside of the pain that I don't understand, and which she has chosen to inflict on me owing to her own confusion and trauma, no doubt. Despite how hard the separation is, I fully see and acknowledge a truth she's shown me that she can't be what she was for me anymore (and I for her) and they she just can't do that anymore (though she went about it in a toxic way). I've learned to fully release her.
The "bonding gap" you describe, wow, yes, it hits me hard and I crave for the validating parent outside of myself I never got. I feel terrified that such a person is nowhere in sight and I may not ever find that validation again, and it can throw me into depression and loneliness... trying to seek it in new friends but then coming up dry and knowing I always will.
Then I joined this forum and I found out about Internal Family Systems therapy, and while I don't have a therapist helping me with this, it was so resonant with my personal spiritual practice (shamanism) that I explored it. I've also gotten in touch with very interesting, very unseen parts of myself! It's helped me turn corners at deep, dark times, and realize that I'm never really alone, and that running away from what I feel is just an extension of shaming and abandoning myself. I'm learning better how to sit with myself, and talk with the abandonment and loneliness and fear, and I feel a small child in me feeling deeply warmed and protected. And *seen* most importantly not all. (Funnily enough there's a "teenage" part of me that is very strong and brave, and emerged during a pivotal stage of my survival in adolescence, it's been amazing to get in touch with him/her again and channel them in my current struggles.)
Thank you for sharing that you do that, JRose. It's one of the handful of self-care tactics that has been immensely helpful, I'm glad it's helped you too. I'm not good at it yet but practicing. Asking the shaming, critical parts of myself to step aside and let me tend to the child that just wants her loneliness and abandoned state to be validated, has helped me on the hard road of accepting my sibling for where she is at and getting those needs myself instead. It should have always been that way, but we grew up in an enmeshed family and it can't be helped, even though we now have very separate journeys ahead of us for the time being. It at least brings me reward and strength they I can find validation from wonderful people (like you!) in this forum and offer that validation in turn. :hug:
Thanks, dreamriver. I feel like there is so much to learn about family systems. I try hard to keep my eyes open to the ways that I am encouraging or pursuing unhealthy relationships, with my daughters, with my husband, in my contact with siblings, even in other relationships outside the family. It just seems like a constant struggle. This is probably one of the most frequent topics with my therapist, only less frequent than the discussions with my various inner parts :bigwink: And even there, I find it necessary to look at my relationships within myself, as you also described. This could be why I sometimes come to the end of the day, seemingly doing relatively little, but feeling exhausted!
Well, I still believe it is worth the fight, or struggle, to keep working on coming out of the mixed-up state that was my childhood ;)