Out of the Storm

Treatment & Self-Help => Self-Help & Recovery => Recovery Journals => Topic started by: dollyvee on November 25, 2020, 02:04:24 PM

Title: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 25, 2020, 02:04:24 PM
Hi all - I think it's time for me to start this and put it out into the ether. I find it helpful to know that ppl reading this have similar experiences to me, which I don't really find IRL.

I've read Pete Walker's Complex PTSD book (the first diagnosis that made sense) and have been doing the work with EMDR. I've been feeling off and having responses to things lately that seem like an EF but I just can't out my finger on what's caused it, and find it hard to get out of. Well, it could be a couple things. I had some problems with my neighbours during lockdown. I started lifting weights a few years ago and it's really helped with stress. Boxing is also amazing but hard to do in lockdown. While working out, I had the music on (not especially loud and only for an hour a day) but the neighbours above me would stomp on the ceiling. I know this might sound crazy but it felt like I was being watched from above. I started going into the kitchen, and even without music, they would stomp on the ceiling. I would accidently drop something on the table and there would be footsteps above me. I like to leave the dishes until morning and wash them while I'm waiting for the coffee to brew, but as soon as there would be the rattle of dishes in in the dish rack, there would be footsteps above me. A lot of the time they would be heavier than what seems normal. I also had another incident at work where I'm pretty sure some coworkers threw a chestnut at the back of my head. When I went to their manager about it, I was the one who was excluded and made to work alone. This really put me back into a place of feeling bullied growing up and not being able to escape from ppl that tormented me.

TW -

My n mom remarried when I was 7 to my step father who verbally abused her and me, and physically abused her later. She told me later that she thought it was right at the time. She was doing drugs before this, and going out at night, leaving me home alone after we moved out of my grandfather's house when I was 5. I'm amazed how smart children are. That I could understand my mom and her friend was doing drugs while I played in the room with the woman's daughter next door. My mom always minimized this incident - which is maybe why I minimize ppl's behaviour/things now. So, she thought my step father would bring her some stability I guess.

My step father was very jealous over how my mom and I were. If I wanted attention from her or was close, he would tell me that I'm a "suck." He was a big, strong "Man" so the last thing you could be was vulnerable. I was quite rebellious and even then could see that his behaviour was wrong. I think he once made me write like 5 pages of lines because I ate something in the fridge I wasn't supposed to. So, I had to sit at the kitchen table and write, I will not pig out. He used to make my mom and I run 2K (?) three times a week with him because he thought we were fat. Really, he hated himself and projected it onto us. My mom's response to this when I pointed out how unfair he was being was, "sometimes it's better in a marriage not to rock the boat." And that was it. There was no one there to really protect me or stick up for me. My grandfather did, but not really. My grandmother, who took all my soaked clothes and told me I was freezing when I went to her house after running 2K in freezing slush, also I didn't tell off my mom or make a scene about what she was doing to me. They thought my step father was not great (or an ape as they called him) but somehow I didn't feel stood up for.

It's like I know this stuff is bad but it never sinks in how bad it was. I know I can't talk about it to ppl. When I mentioned it to a coworker who was sharing his experiences of neglect growing up, I told him I used to have to run. He said that's enough to mess someone up for life.

TW End -

When I come up against unreasonable ppl like my neighbours now, there is still the feeling of not being able to escape. It's like there's no psychic protection and maybe they were a threat but it's like you never really know. I didn't think it I was being a bad neighbour. When I moved out from my old flat, I was told by the upstairs neighbour that I was great, they never knew I was there. I even asked the ppl upstairs to stop stomping on the ceiling and they basically told me I was imagining it. I ended up moving apartments for peace of mind but that heightened response to stress is still lingering months later.

So, I came back to the forum and have found some great resources which is helping a bit. I'm reading about IFS and how to relate to your "different parts" but still a bit cautious about unleashing something I can't control. Haha maybe that's my manager speaking but it's done it's job well for getting me out of that house growing up in one piece to where I am now and am thankful for that. I guess it just still feels like there's so many dangerous ppl out here in the world.




Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on November 25, 2020, 09:58:28 PM
QuoteIt's like I know this stuff is bad but it never sinks in how bad it was.

I was the same about a lot of my stuff. I could only begin to comprehend how bad it was when I imagined what my reaction would be if I saw it being done to someone else.

I hope it goes well with IFS. There's no harm in being cautious. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 26, 2020, 10:32:23 AM
Thanks for dropping by Snowdrop  :wave: and for the well wishes.

It's a really fascinating way to look at myself and is throwing up some new insights. I'm starting to realize my firefighting behaviours (unfortunately for my waistline - it's eating but no wonder) and that underneath them are maybe emotions that have been hidden for a long time. This is where I'm trying to be cautious. It's also really helpful to recognize the other parts and start to find out who they are, and that I'm not stuck this way.

I remember years ago I had the distinct experience of hearing voices chattering away in my head before I went to sleep. It felt kind of soothing for them to go on like this and reflect on what was happening, but I also remember thinking, maybe there's something wrong with me. I'm glad IFS clears this up.

I'm definitely more interested in how the shamanic journeying comes into play and it's really powerful to read your experiences on your journal.  :hug:

I may have met a helper this week. I had a dream of a baby ... that was at my feet. It looked so cute and wanted to be petted. The next day while I was driving home from the city, I had ... run out in front of my car three times. It hasn't happened since the last time when again, I had three ... run out in front of my car on the same drive. This is exactly what I face at work. I have an innate fear of being used and taken for granted from being programmed to please and not being allowed to have any needs or boundries growing up. I work in a competitive field where people will willingly do this to get ahead and it fills me with anger when I notice it happening. I guess they're old wounds that get triggered, and old wounds on top of those because there is no human resources department I can go to when things happen. I'm alone navigating a dangerous world again. The anger in me wants to punish these people for trying to hurt me, that little girl, but socially and professionally, I can't do this. Unfortunately, some ppl behave this way and I have to find a way to deal with it without stooping to their level.

So, hello little .., my helper. I'm hoping you stay with me for a while and be by my side while I understand this.

 

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on November 26, 2020, 06:32:39 PM
QuoteI had a dream of a baby fox that was at my feet. It looked so cute and wanted to be petted. The next day while I was driving home from the city, I had foxes run out in front of my car three times. It hasn't happened since the last time when again, I had three foxes run out in front of my car on the same drive.

That's interesting. I've heard a few times that when journeying to find an animal guide, you should wait for it to appear before you three times.

:hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 26, 2020, 08:32:25 PM
Oh that is very interesting! A friend mentioned that when we are at a spiritual crossroads, or opening up spiritually, we begin to see three numbers like 111, 555. I wondered if three ... was similar.  :hug:

The strange thing is, I'm pretty sure there was a ... in my dream the night before I saw them the last time, but can't remember. I've always had "strong" dreams but a lot of times these things fill me with anxiety. I guess maybe that's accessing the true self which touches on the feelings of the exiles etc. Or not as the case may be. Sometimes I just feel numb. I'm looking into that too ;D
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 29, 2020, 11:47:05 AM
A bit of a detour - this may be TMI for some but I wonder if it's all related?

I had a small skin tag that I've had my whole life start to act up in the past few days, bleeding and spewing some great looking other stuff. I was told years ago that it was nothing to worry about. I called the doctor yesterday and he wanted me to get it looked at immediately, but when I asked him if he thought it was cancerous, he said probably not. I just realized that maybe this is the kind of reaction Richard Schwartz described when things are released/accessed without going through the proper channels (one of his clients came down with a fever, the other a migraine). I wonder then if all the feelings coming up the past few weeks have maybe somehow triggered this.

I've had years of "weird" health things that were always dismissed by doctors. I made the mistake of asking for antidepressants 8 years ago because my energy just vanished and I assumed I was healthy, and ever since then doctors have tried to tell me it was all psychological. It took a lot of research and persistence to find out what was sort of going on. After finding out I had CPTSD, and how childhood trauma can raise cortisol levels which then can affect the body, my health stuff started to make more sense. There was a lot of what do I have to do to get someone to believe me and just feeling like I had to navigate through this on my own and this is related to my "old stuff."

TW -

Growing up I had asthma and remember asking my mom to take me to emergency so I could be put on oxygen when I was about 5/6. I had been there before and I liked it, it felt soothing and was a relief that I could breathe. I remember her once asking if I really needed it because she had to get up and go to work the next day, and I was inconveniencing her basically. I felt like such a burden to want to take care of myself. My mom smoked all the time and this really affected my asthma but she would never stop. So, no matter what, I was a burden. Growing up, so much of my attention was focused on how do I get my n mother to take care of me, and the feelings that came along with it when she didn't.

It's taken me a long time to start to meet my physical needs and realize that it's my responsibility to do so (and that it feels good to be my own adult with my own life). So, I guess there's a lot of things coming up around if this is something really serious, I'm not that little person anymore asking for my n mom to take care of me; that I don't have to panic about not getting looked after.

TW - end
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 29, 2020, 07:03:26 PM
After writing my previous post today, I remembered a dream I had the other night where I was pulling a sliver from my toe. The sliver turned into a little plastic bag of parasitic fishes with rainbow colours. I thought maybe, if my skin issue was related to memories coming up, this might be a good place to start. So, I tried my first IFS experience.

IFS

I wanted to ask for help on with this. A clearing in a forest lit by moonlight came to mind and I asked if there was a helper. There was a bent (not hunched but bent at an angle) tall, lanky woman. I had to talk to her and ask her if it was ok to let this happen. I think she was scared that I wouldn't be protected, but also that she had been working so long to protect me and feeling like she wasn't being heard/taken for granted. That this was the part who has to be "right" and rigid. (This is where it gets a bit hazy - I think I'm need to practice listening or noticing when the Self is present).

A brown horse with a black mane and shiny eyes appeared. I rode it to a really bright desert with a pond and put the bag of parasite fishes in the pond. The sun was hot and dried up the water but a part of me was scared that they weren't going to die so I tried to burn them. It was like this fear that they were still in me got so large that it filled up my mind. So, I asked if there was someone behind this fear. A tiny, very toddler like me (?) came out. I also got the sense that I was fluffy, like I was wearing a pink snowsuit (I think I used to have one). I felt so warm to this little girl. That she was so cute and small. I got comically tall around her (but maybe this was a blended self part that was tall as I could see how tall it was).  I got the sense that she made things (fears) very big because she was so small and this was how she protected herself. I wanted to take her and put her somewhere safe and a treehouse came to mind. I thought this was funny because she was like a little ewok. The forest was very green surrounding the treehouse.

I got the sense that she was still scared* in the trees and asked if there was someone to stay with her. I saw balls of light but they didn't really have a shape but felt that they could help protect her. Next time, I will go back to her and try to show her that I can protect her.

*reading Owl and Snowdrop's experiences after my experience, I realize that maybe she is still stuck in the past and even though I was so big next to her, and she also didn't believe that I could protect her, that I was capable of that. I also really understood what they meant by "ball of protectors" and this felt somewhat like that. There was also a voice checking in in the background too and is a very rational part, trying to explain everything and relate it to my life. It makes me wonder if ppl who have narcissistic trauma might experience IFS differently as a lot of us had a very deformed sense of reality growing up  because our reality was never validated. I also wonder if this affects our Self in IFS. It gave me the idea that maybe I need a "reality compass" when I'm doing this, or some sort of string/anchor. I get the sense that it's very easy to hide parts of myself that my protectors want to protect.




Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on November 30, 2020, 09:32:14 AM
That sounds illuminating, Dollyvee.

QuoteI realize that maybe she is still stuck in the past and even though I was so big next to her, and she also didn't believe that I could protect her, that I was capable of that.

When I encounter a part that may be an exile, I find it helpful to ask how old the part thinks I am, and what her role is. If the part thinks I'm a particular age, she might be a protector for a part of that age. If she doesn't know what I mean by role, she's more likely to be an exile.

The other thing is that with every encounter, I ask if that part has protectors, and make sure that I'm not blended with any parts. I then get permission from every possible protector or interested part before going any further.

QuoteIt makes me wonder if ppl who have narcissistic trauma might experience IFS differently as a lot of us had a very deformed sense of reality growing up  because our reality was never validated. I also wonder if this affects our Self in IFS.

I know that those of us with CPTSD experience IFS differently to others. This is a quote from one of the chapters in the IFS New Dimensions book: From the perspective of IFS, people with complex PTSD and DDs have exiles who carry burdens of extreme emotion and beliefs, as well as firefighters and managers who are either rigidly controlling or easily overwhelmed. This complicates the inner family of a client with DD in a number of ways. Parts tend to be more dissociated and may seem to have no connection with each other; parts are often phobic of each other and do not want anyone, including the therapist, to know about them and treatment is further complicated by the possibility of the inner family having layers of dissociated parts who reveal themselves only as progress is being made.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 30, 2020, 04:00:45 PM
Thanks for the advice Snowdrop  :hug: It's really great to hear the things you have done before as a road map for things to try

I do get the feeling that things could pop out of nowhere and it seems that they will morph and change into other parts. There's also a sense of frozenness when thinking about the self. I know before in therapy where I was asked to focus on how I was feeling or thinking during certain exercises, there was a sense of not knowing, or having multiple options. That my answers maybe weren't coming from the Self. It made me think that something similar is likely to happen in IFS and would be hard to discern what is actually real.

I amazed at what an experience it was though. How these things came together and how natural it felt to react to them. I'm glad I wrote everything down right away as even going back an hour later to write my OTTS post, I had forgotten quite a bit,
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on November 30, 2020, 08:11:04 PM
I'm glad you got on so well with it. :hug:

QuoteI know before in therapy where I was asked to focus on how I was feeling or thinking during certain exercises, there was a sense of not knowing, or having multiple options. That my answers maybe weren't coming from the Self. It made me think that something similar is likely to happen in IFS and would be hard to discern what is actually real.

It makes me wonder if you were blended with multiple parts. I think IFS makes it easier to tell when this is the case.

One thing I found really helpful is to spend time recognising when I was my Self, and when I was blended with a part. If, say, I felt scared, I'd say to myself "now I'm blended with a part that feels scared". Any time I felt anything other than those Self qualities, it meant I was blended.

I also looked for things that made me more my Self so that I could cultivate Self energy. Off the top of my head, it could be worth trying things like the Tapping Solution app. I usually feel much more my Self after using it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: gravity on November 30, 2020, 09:51:45 PM
Just wanted to say hi dollyvee.  Seeing discussion about IFS is making me curious about it, so thanks for talking about it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 01, 2020, 11:18:33 PM
Thanks Snowdrop and thank you for stopping by Gravity, welcome. I'm glad you are finding it useful. There are quite a few ppl on here who are using IFS (like Snowdrop) and have a lot of great insights.  :grouphug:

Quote from: Snowdrop on November 30, 2020, 08:11:04 PM
I also looked for things that made me more my Self so that I could cultivate Self energy. Off the top of my head, it could be worth trying things like the Tapping Solution app. I usually feel much more my Self after using it.

This is interesting - I will have a look at this app. Thanks Snowdrop  :hug

With the therapy sessions, it was like not really knowing what to choose. It may sound strange but for a long time I felt really empty, like there was nothing there. I thought for a while that maybe this was narcissism and I was the narc, but I think children of narcs aren't allowed a self. Growing up in a narc family, there was a lot of enmeshment and lack of separation/boundaries. Any separateness was usually shut down or looked at badly.

TW -

After a while of living with my step father and mother, and having to run, write lines, being made to do an unfair amount of chores, but really not being listened to, minimized, treated badly and bullied, I told my dad that I didn't want to live with my mom anymore and could I live with him. There were problems at my dad's house but nothing like my mom's house. It actually felt like a loving family. My mom wasn't having any of it though and told me that I, as an 8 year old child, abandoned her. She refused to kiss me or show me any affection after that and for a good 25 years after. After this (it was probably always there to a degree though), I think I really tried to ppl please because I had the self belief that something I wanted and needed was somehow wrong, and there are years of "if I just did this, then maybe x would like me," or just numbing everything out because you were told how wrong it was. Not just told, but shown how unlovable she thought I was. My grandmother has narc behaviour as well but in much subtler ways, which is another layer of self doubt.

TW end

I think my Self is probably there, as a feral 8 year old somewhere. A bit wild and a bit untamed. Or I guess that's maybe a part. I can really relate to what you posted before about parts being phobic of being found out and ready to dissociate but I do think I made some headway. Finding that little girl part was very interesting. When things settle down a bit at work, I'll try another journey.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on December 05, 2020, 10:45:07 AM
QuoteI think my Self is probably there, as a feral 8 year old somewhere. A bit wild and a bit untamed. Or I guess that's maybe a part.

I think you're right, Dollyvee, that's likely to be another part. If it feels as though you weren't allowed to have a Self growing up, it's possible it might be hiding. But your Self is there, and you're allowed to have one. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 05, 2020, 08:26:48 PM
Quote from: Snowdrop on December 05, 2020, 10:45:07 AM
QuoteI think my Self is probably there, as a feral 8 year old somewhere. A bit wild and a bit untamed. Or I guess that's maybe a part.

I think you're right, Dollyvee, that's likely to be another part. If it feels as though you weren't allowed to have a Self growing up, it's possible it might be hiding. But your Self is there, and you're allowed to have one. :hug:

Thank you Snowdrop  :hug:

It was a busy week at work this week and a lot of stress trying to arrange to see a doctor in the city away from my usual doctor with all the Covid restrictions. I've also had to deal with my boss, who is nice, but a bit of a control freak, gently explaining to him why things may not be working and how we might better approach this. It's really been tricky to navigate standing up for myself. I've also been really exhausted and am hoping that whatever is happening health wise is not that serious. It would sort of be fitting though, just as I felt like things might be ok, up pops my protectors who are scared of success (well change to the system).

I noticed a couple things - that as the week went on and I felt more overwhelmed, I found it hard to kind of check in (not journey) and tune in to my parts. I felt like I didn't want to make another IFS journey because I was scared it wouldn't be like last time or maybe something would go wrong. When speaking with my T today, I was ready to tell her all about my parts and share. I realized that that is a part of me - wanting to share and have connection without checking in to see if that's something I want. I guess this is where the Self comes in. It does bring up some anxiety to have to do this and makes me wonder if my sharing/anxiety is related to my health and tiredness rn. I know I have a lot of desire to share and help ppl at the expense of myself as that's how I was brought up. It's not a limitless well of energy but something to be looked at with attention. I also get the impression that I have to share everything (and look for a witness) because nothing ever made sense growing up and maybe I still don't trust that it does. It's like if I'm separate, I won't be protected.

My T also wanted to do a grounding exercise at the end because I guess I seemed distressed and agitated. I didn't want to do it. I know what she was saying but I guess a part of me felt like my concerns weren't being heard and I felt vulnerable.

Found this exercise today about connecting to the Self and wanted to give it a try:
https://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=234

I don't know, maybe I'm just a bit angry and agitated because this stuff is coming up rn and I feel like it's not the easiest to connect to.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 06, 2020, 05:59:12 PM
I did an IFS experience to try and unpack some of my emotional congestion this week and see what was coming up.

IFS

I asked for help in allowing the parts to step back and allow the Self to be present and if I had permission to do these things. There was a noise of voices. A very angry part was upset that I wasn't going to be safe and look at what was going on. I tried to comfort the part and show that I was an adult and could take care of things now. Then I got the impression that I was in a cement bunker, but the voice seemed like it was still angry. I tried explaining that the Self was in charge and it would be ok. Got the impression of winter and things being under ice, and the feeling of my mom. I guess it was like freezing out these feelings from around that time with my mom.

I'm confused by this journey as I thought these things were supposed to be loosed and let go, not frozen. Perhaps my protectors are refreezing them to keep me safe. I'm not sure if I got through to the angry voice about the Self being in control.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on December 07, 2020, 07:32:14 PM
QuoteI'm confused by this journey as I thought these things were supposed to be loosed and let go, not frozen. Perhaps my protectors are refreezing them to keep me safe. I'm not sure if I got through to the angry voice about the Self being in control.

It can take time to get through to parts. They've been used to things being a certain way, so they sometimes need a bit of time to adjust. I think you're doing well. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: owl25 on December 09, 2020, 02:45:23 AM
I just read your journal, dollyvee, and your mother's reaction to you moving to your dad's really struck me. Withholding love and affection like that is deeply wounding. I am so sorry that happened to you.  :bighug:

I could be wrong, but from how you described your latest IFS journey, it almost sounds like you weren't in Self, but were speaking from a self-like part. These are tricky to distinguish and may take some practice. Self-like parts are different in that they seem like Self, but have an agenda. I think I have at least one but possibly two self-like parts, and for me they basically want to move ahead and fix things right away.  When you are in Self, whatever another part does or doesn't do doesn't matter, it's all ok and accepted. There is no pressure on other parts to change or interact, and Self is in no rush.  Parts always know if there is an agenda at play or not, and if they sense one, they shut down rather than open up. I'm wondering if in your journey the angry part sensed you were a different part rather than Self, and as a response got more protective.

I am by no means an expert, and am very much a beginner in IFS, so if all of the above does not resonate, please disregard! It does take time for parts to start to trust, regardless.

If you are interested, I recently started reading Jay Earley's Self-Therapy book. I am finding it a really good resource that explains how to approach parts and why. This is where I learned about parts knowing if it's another part or not.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 09, 2020, 10:00:35 PM
Thanks Snowdrop  :hug: I also went over it again and kind of laughed because it's not like these things are going to change because of one IFS journey. It struck me how strong the voice was and I feel like I do know that part. It was like Danger! Danger! Alert! and maybe this is why we went into the cement bunker (Cherynobl  :)) )

Thank you Owl  :hug: What makes it, or made it, even trickier is that once in a while she would tell me she loved me or say, you do know I love you right? This was a real mind bender and made think of gaslighting in your situation and how it's sometimes very hard to unpack what is actually happening.

Thanks too, for the feedback on the book. That sounds like a good resource  :hug: I think it would be really helpful to distinguish what is a part and what is Self. I did another IFS journey last night and I think there's some things coming up. Some are familiar and some I'm not sure where they fall in the IFS spectrum yet.

IFS

I tried to get in touch with the part that was angry before but it didn't come out. I was in a very calm forest. It seemed like it didn't want to come out or was calmer now. I tried to get in touch with my Self energy and ask if it wanted to show itself. I don't know if I was forcing this. It was almost like my insides/mind wince in pain. My body shook and it's like a fear it comes out. This happens in EMDR too. (I get really strong body reactions).

Then my thoughts went all over the place. I felt a bit like I'd always be alone and this is what the part as angry about - that I have to fit in/be someone else so I wouldn't be alone. Because my thoughts were going all over the place, I thought about my reality compass, and realized that maybe I'm dissociating. So I asked if there was someone behind this and there was this youngish-teenage part that came out. She seemed very familiar as well. She was quiet and just wanting to help. A bit of a loner. I noticed a lot of worry if I doing this right, and am thinking there's another part behind that.

I'd like to unpack the wincing at the Self energy some more. I've been trying the Peter Levine exercise, but feels like there's layers of stuff to get through before I get to the Self, which seems strange but I don't know.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 17, 2020, 09:28:48 PM
Have been congested/ busy with work. I'm finding this job environment really passive-aggressive and a bit of a challenge. Someone mentioned about narcissists and how they like to control things. I think this is why I get triggered so much by that behaviour because it feels like ppl are trying to manipulate and control me. It also bothers me that part of the reason I took this contract/job was because it helps ppl who are in a difficult place because of covid and I feel like everyone at this workplace is very stand-offish. I guess I feel like I tried to do something nice and it back fired. I think both of these are "old stuff." I just feel like walking away and saying never again. Everyone else only seems out for themselves, why shouldn't it be me too? I know that sounds harsh but I honestly believe it at this point.

I haven't done another IFS journey but I have been thinking about the "self-like part" which winced in my previous IFS. I got the impression that there was a lot that I had to witness from a young age that I didn't know how to explain/ verbalize. With my mom being a narcissist, I'm sure there was behaviour towards me since i was a baby. I've been trying to be really nice to that part, treat it with kindness and say that I'm an adult now, looking after it.

After a long ordeal trying to get an appointment at the doctor, I finally got one and it's not serious  :cheer: It's wild though that I still have to fight to feel like I'm looked after/ok. Maybe that's what it's bringing up in me. I ordered the Self Therapy book and am looking forward to reading it over the xmas holidays. I'm not going to see family and always enjoy a quiet Christmas.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: owl25 on December 22, 2020, 01:43:53 AM
I hope you have a relaxing Christmas  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 25, 2020, 07:45:29 PM
Thanks Owl, I hope you're having a good Christmas as well  :hug: I have now eaten too much and am enjoying a glass of wine.

Things have been kind of stuck the past week emotionally. Found it really difficult to connect to my parts. I guess freezing them over and putting them in a bunker did the trick. I also feel like I've been observing things from a distance though - and am aware that these parts are frozen where before I think they would've just been hidden in my subconscious.

I had a v. positive and healing dream (as my T called it). Maybe as a result of doing this work on my parts now. I think perhaps it's my reaction to it that made me freeze even more? That when I feel like things are going to be ok, I get this kind of dumb optimism? I don't even know what to call it but it's something I know well. It's like ok, cool good things are coming and I feel really open to the world but also like I'm not protecting myself, and I feel like the glasses are maybe a little too rosy I'm seeing the world with. Also, when I interact with ppl, I think it's not really open.

I don't know if that makes sense but it's a really strange part and I'm trying to figure it out. It's not a part that feels empowered etc if things were going to be good/work out, just kind of floating along, blase. I just wanted to put it down, hoping that giving it a little form might also give it some life to show me more about it. Maybe this part thinks that someone is going to come along and rescue her, do things for her like a parent would've? Or that having things go ok meant other ppl made decisions for me? I don't know.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 28, 2020, 10:10:00 PM
Having some time off and reading through Self Therapy by Jay Farley. Had a lot of anxiety/busyness the past few days so I finally started in on it. Having been feeling kind of walled off from my parts, even though things have been coming up in dreams lately. Even reading other ppl's examples of IFS journeys is exhausting. Am finding the book v. good as a kind of map to get to know parts/as an outline of how journey's might look though.

Tried an exercise today where you were supposed to just check in to see what parts were active. Wow, did I take a trip. I'm not really sure where I ended up however.

IFS

This youngish teen, Zoomer, was there who was so busy kind of like the guy who used to speak really fast in commercials - like gotta go, gotta do this, gotta do that. Tried to ask what it wanted to be called but couldn't get it to settle. "Scattered Sally" came up and I immediately had all of these negative connotations (felt like all these stereotypical things men say to put women down - she's not that smart, or as if they were pointing to me as the dumb blonde etc). Got the feeling that she wanted to make jokes and not take herself seriously. Her positive intent for me was that she wants ppl to like me.

Thanked part for all it's done - I know this part and it has tried so hard to keep me included and related to other ppl. As I was thanking the part, this sadness came up. Scattered Sally felt small, and like she didn't have a lot of power. When I asked for permission to talk to this other part, I got a flash of manipulation, and saw in the face vindictiveness and someone who delights in others' misfortunes. A feeling of my mom came up at this time and I saw that this part was big, like it couldn't be contained. Sally was worried about it getting out and that it will take over. So, I asked what will happen if it gets out? What came up is: ppl will see who you really are.

This is where I think it gets tricky and I don't know if this part is me (I guess they're all me really) or something I am carrying for my mom, or perhaps this was a few parts blended together.

The feeling that was coming up behind Sally that she didn't want to get out was an imprisoned queen/princess who was sobbing znd wailing. It was such a loud pain. I got the sense that this was my mom and I had to carry this burden for her. I remember when I met my biological grandfather for the first time and she was there, she went off about how could he leave her. This princess was like this - unreasonable and stomping around, drawing a lot of attention to herself. I got the impression that I was upset that I had to comfort this queen and be the parent. It felt like a huge burden and made me feel tired. I tried to get rid of her unhappiness by bathing her in light. The image of a handsome guy kept popping up. So, I asked (?) and married her to the handsome prince. They were going to live in a castle and I told her that I would visit and she seemed really happy.

In a nutshell, this does seem to be pretty much like my relationship with my mother and how I carried her burdens and had to parent her, but I'm not sure how this relates to "my" parts and self. I did try to check in and see if I was in Self, but maybe what I think is Self is actually the compassionate part that used to parent my mother. I don't know. I'm looking forward to reading the upcoming chapters on blended parts.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 29, 2020, 10:23:51 AM
I also wanted to add that I'm having a lot of confusion (?) around if that part is me and not a burden I'm carrying for my mom because I don't like that shadow part of myself? Maybe this is akin to when you see narc parts in yourself and you think it's you that was the problem. I know I have had moments of stomping around and being the princess but I feel like this was something I learned so I could relate to my mother. There just wasn't a reasonable way to get through to her.

I guess the most confusing thing is that the Self felt burdened and tired to parent this part. So, am guessing that there is another part in there, hidden in all this perhaps.

IFS really is incredible - that all of this is present in my psyche and shows such a succinct (or succinct but hidden  ;)) road map to what is going on is amazing. Have been feeling like it's exhausting to look at all this but still all v. in awe and at the fact that there is another way to look at all my trauma which is positive and healing.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 31, 2020, 10:45:32 PM
Going through the exercises and getting a better understanding of blended parts and trying to discern when I'm blended. I felt like this previous IFS was looking at a dynamic of my parts and how they relate to each other? Or an understanding of a generational dynamic playing out in my family?

I don't know if it's the exercises in the book, but when just tuning in to the parts that are activated it seems to turn up dynamics, or the feeling that I'm just overseeing which programs are running if that makes sense. Things get kind of fuzzy and it seems like there's a lot of blending going on. Before when checking in with a certain issue the experience was much more defined and easier to visualize. I wonder too if maybe I'm in an EF and not aware which is why the blending is going on.

I had another IFS journey yesterday just checking in with my parts as one of the exercises suggests. It was a bit emphemerous and all over the place, almost like a dream. There was someone who felt like they were a reflection of Carrie Bradshaw, and I wondered if this was just because I was watching Sex and the City again. It feels a bit tiring to write it, so I'm not going to. I don't know if that's because the parts are shy. One of them seemed reluctant to come out.

While I was journaling today, and have been thinking a lot lately about how I was told to "be more lady-like' growing up, I started getting upset about why I couldn't just be me. How, even at my dad's house, they couldn't just stand up to all the stuff that was happening with my mom (it was my step mom who said I should be more ladylike). That I had to be someone else and it wasn't like I was being heard. I sensed a part was really upset about this and so decided to check in.

IFS

There was a bright white/blue angry part that was speaking - shining bright. I guess this is white hot rage. It was really angry about having to deal with this growing up, that I had to parent myself; that no one was standing up for me. I asked that part to step aside and another little girl part came out (she might have been the same Ewok girl from before), and she was worried about getting sick. When I was trying to comfort the little girl, I got the feeling like how could I be condescending, that I wasn't treating her right. Asked that part to step aside and there was an older woman in a navy suit with dark hair, pearls and glasses. She looked like a senator and someone who campaigned on behalf of other ppl. I get the sense that she was there to watch over what is authentic and make sure the little girl is being treated well. Wanted to do something for the little girl and gave her a glowing flower which she liked very much. Soon there were lots of glowing balls which changed into mushrooms which she thought was fun. Wanted to put her somewhere safe and thought of a hospital but that didn't seem right. Asked her but didn't get an answer. We ended up in a room with curved, smooth walls and a warm soft pink glow. Seemed comforting and I felt a release/calmer.

The little girl made me remember how I met a little boy who had severe asthma once while I was temping in elementary schools. As soon as I saw him with his mother, I felt like his asthma was brought on by his environment. I looked up ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences) and their relation to asthma and there is a strong indication that stressful environments bring this out in children. It makes me think of the little girl/me who had to go the hospital at night because she couldn't breathe and how difficult the environment must have been that caused that.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 03, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
Hibernating the past few days, going through the Self Therapy book and reflecting on what's coming up and the IFS's I've had. Skipped ahead to the the Detecting Parts chapter and probably have Avoider, Intellectualizer, Inadequate, Skeptical and Judgemental parts all popping up in these sessions  :party:

I also think that perhaps the little girl part might be an exile because she is sometimes afraid. I didn't realize that they just come out like that...she marched right through before. It's sweet that she's so confident and warm, willing to explore like a toddler would. It also reminds me of myself who just puts everything out there and then gets hurt, who is worried that I have no protection in the world. Will continue reading and try to learn more about this.

I really feel it when he writes that our psyches are complex. This guide is helpful but I think my psyche might colour outside the lines in the way that I always seem to have two answers to questions that come up in therapy and that I can see some of these IFS "dynamics" happening being relative on a few different levels. Anyways, did a brief check in the other night to try and get to know the Avoider who wants to put all this off. Have been feeling like I am I'm a little more mentally clear, less resistant to be in the kitchen making food that's good for me among other things. Realizing how much pressure i put on myself to be/look a certain way and that maybe there's another way to think about this.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 07, 2021, 11:26:36 PM
Really grateful to have some time off work and focus on IFS. Have been doing some sessions and seem to be getting an overview of what's going on. Some things are coming up that I don't quite understand but I have a feeling they might make more sense at another time. Maybe not. Have done one where I felt the chaos of what it can be like inside. There was a small cinder-rock pokemon stomping around not listening. Afterwards, I could stand back and see how I had to try to make sense of everything that was going on that I didn't really have an adequate way to process it at the time.

i'm noticing that I've been putting off doing exercises in the book. Checking in just seems exhausting to do as well. So, I've been trying to focus on avoidance and put my attention on what might be behind this. I think this is a feeling I know well - there's lots of things I put off in my life. Sometimes it's eating or doing things to take care of myself, leaving them until the last moment.

IFS

When I focus on putting things off, I get The Black. It's just a black shadow. (Before in an IFS it was like there were black faces like those Inuit rock sculptures in there and a calm presence like the sound of rain on the West Coast). But it's just the Black. I try to see if it's a protector and asked what it was afraid would happen if it let go. I don't know if I was intellectualising but I started getting images of my dad's house and wondered if it had something to do with the loss surrounding his death (I have always had a feeling like things were "stuck" at that time from my dad's house. I don't know if this is something sudden death or suicide does). Felt like all this stuff was coming up and I didn't know if it was "real" (or if I was intellectualising etc). As soon as I thought that I felt a shock in my body and I got the image of this vast, black cave with this little girl staring into a bright white orb.

I asked the protector if I had their permission to interact with the little girl. They seemed hesitant at first but I explained that they could watch what was happening and take over after the session and they seemed ok with this. (I do feel a bit if back and forth about being in the self. I try to check in and see if I am acting with a warm heart, open and curious, but when I do I feel like maybe I am putting this on? Maybe that is another protector who is skeptical?)

She doesn't seem like she knows I'm there so I ask her if she's aware. She looks up and seems really happy to see me. Thought came up that she shouldn't sit so close to the tv and then all these feelings started to come up. I asked her not to flood me and tried to get some space. I got the impression of a face at my grandfather's annual work picnic and the memory of my mom telling me I was chubby. I told the little girl that it wasn't very nice of her to say those things and that I'm an adult now and we don't have to listen. But it was like a little, young version of my mom (the same age as the little girl?) was there over my right shoulder and she wouldn't stop saying those things. I didn't know what to do about it to keep her away from me and the little girl so I walled her up and contained her. When I did, I felt an immediate release down my arm.

I don't know if I have to go back and speak to the walled up little girl mom or just leave it. It's definitely brought up some things to think about.

Noticing a bit of a difference after going through these IFS sessions the past week or so. I feel a bit more grounded.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 08, 2021, 10:46:29 AM
So I think the last IFS took a bit out of me. Feeling quite tired in the head.

Woke up this morning wondering if I did the right thing, walling up the other girl/mom and if this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Another part came and felt that whatever I did, I handled the situation in a way that protected me and the girl. I'm thinking this is Self. Also, that I know there's a part of me that would've done anything for my mom, for her to be happy. This part makes me feel sad to connect to. It also brings up ideas of people who would think I'm a weak person for wanting to do that after the way she treated me. I guess this is another part.

It's interesting that there were two parts in there. I don't think the mom part was a protector. Maybe she was another exile that I have. Their dynamic mirrored the dynamic I had with my mom and the lack of psychic protection I feel around people. It's really hard for me to shut out the things ppl say and not pick up their negativity etc. Although, that's not entirely true. I've gotten better at shutting it out, but I think it's just a shutting down.

Another thought also came up this morning, that "nothing is ever good enough." This is an old feeling and given the dynamic between the two girls, makes sense. It's one I looked at and thought, I can't hold onto. Also, interesting that my mom part is the same age as I was the one who had to parent her.

TGIF *wine emoji*  **in a non explicit, not firefighting way

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: mojay on January 08, 2021, 09:08:37 PM
Hi Dollyvee, thank you for sharing your experiences. I found myself relating to a lot of what you are saying.
This is the first time I've heard of IFS. I'd like to learn more about it but felt very scared at step one. Had to laugh at myself for not even making it past step one without feeling afraid :doh: Will definitely be researching more!

I just wanted to take a moment to really thank you for sharing and for bringing this new approach to my attention. I appreciate your honesty and bravery.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 09, 2021, 09:32:27 AM
Thanks Mojay  :hug:

I came across it via the forum in November. Three Roses posted this video series by the creator of IFS, Richard Schwartz, and it felt right for me. There are some other people on here posting their journey's/experiences with IFS as well. Also, at Owl's suggestion, I tried out the Jay Earley Self Therapy book and it's a good introduction. I've had a lot of therapy as well as EMDR, but I feel like this is the first thing I've tried that allows me to explore my emotions in a way that can connect to. Hope you find it useful as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2UfmGwENz9M&t=2297s

I tried this morning to go back to the cave and connect with the mom part as I wanted to find out more of who they were and if there was any more insight.

IFS

I went back into the cave and the walled "room" I had put the mom part in. It had mud walls  and no roof. When I tried to get in there was no way in. I guess I imagined a door and got an image of my mom as a little girl. I tried to ask her questions about who she was/ what was she afraid of but it was like she was frozen. I tried to make sure I was in Self and grounded, and asked other parts to step back. I got this feeling of anxiety in my chest. I tried to step back from it and come back into Self. When I tried to come back into Self and talk to the part again, I heard that I had to be separate. Anxiety kept coming up when I tried to unfreeze the part and get more information from it.

I feel like I'm in Self when talking to the part and I don't understand the anxiety. No part is stepping out when the anxiety comes up and I ask it to step back. Is the anxiety another exile or concerned part? I don't understand if I'm supposed to be talking to it to reparent it, or just leave it walled up.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 10, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
The IFS continued to have an impact on me yesterday and today. I woke up early (like 4/5am) something that happens usually before work and there's some unexplained, underlying anxiety. The feeling like I couldn't be around ppl, that I felt unprotected was also quite present. Super upset about interacting with a guy I went on a date with recently (that I'm going to be rejected and tuned in that the wailing princess part was activated). I feel like the underlying reason was "I don't know what's going on; I don't know if I'm doing the right thing; I could be hurting someone" was there and keeping me stuck, which fits with the IFS and my IRL mom dynamic.

Still not really understanding what the IFS "meant," I came across that "sometimes your parts have parts." It occurred to me that what if my mom part was an idea/part that I adopted to keep me safe (protector) and that on some level I mimicked my mom's behaviour, but that this is happening outside of my consciousness? So, I have an exile looking at an orb but there's also another exile there behind the mom part and that's where the fear/anxiety about it is coming from? So, a conscious IFS (where I have the exile who had to go through the trauma of my mother saying those things to me) and another subconscious IFS  "dynamic" where that "mom part" believes I have to say those things to myself to keep me safe and is protecting another exile? Wow, that feels complicated  :fallingbricks:

It makes sense about fitting in with the other dynamic where there's a part of me that I can't let out because I can't let people see the real me. Not quite there yet with this one but something to think about.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 10, 2021, 03:05:49 PM
After a fruitful morning of searching online - pieces are falling into place. The mom part in the cave is an inner critic/legacy burden (generational burdens are a thing - this makes so much sense) and it might be that through criticising (protecting) another wounded exile is being activated/triggered.

So, yes to all of the above - looks like I've already skipped ahead to the advanced class  ;D typical
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 11, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
I powered though chapters of Jay Earley's Inner Critic yesterday and a lot of pieces are still falling into place. Just hoping to use this time to get a handle on it because I know I'm probably going to go back to work and it will all get pushed into the background for a bit. Because I have a legacy burden that showed up as my mother, I'm supposed to speak to it like it is my mother. Part of me is scared to go back into the cave and try after the last IFS and have been trying to address that part.

TW

My mother used to lose her temper and hit me with the wooden spoon or with her hands when I did something "wrong." One of my first memories that came up out of nowhere in EMDR was when I was getting in trouble and my mother hit me because "my eyes were smiling." I think I was 7. I don't remember feeling like I was being petulant at all at that time, just that I had to suppress everything I might be feeling afterwards. Not that it was an excuse for her to hit me like that if I was. Perhaps this was the narc part that needed to control things - that I couldn't just be my own person (I might be trying to rationalise things here - interesting). She also one time, when I was a teenager, wrestled me to the ground and pinned me, saying how I wasn't strong enough to take her/best her yet. So messed up.

TW end

I guess it's understanding why I would have some apprehension about speaking to my mom given her history of unpredictable behaviour. I felt a  bit last night like I could be in Self, that the mom I was talking to was this little girl and she was not the other mom doing those things. I think I can also see better where my anxiety about people getting close comes from. It has a face now.

I think the "dumb optimism" I felt before when things were going to work out was my Underminer at work. The Destroyer also resonated with me and how "the self blame allows you to stay attached to the person, so you won't be alone." Very necessary to blame myself and stay attached to my mother as a child for survival, no matter what she was doing.

I don't feel amazing, but a little more grounded after what was coming up in the IFS.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 14, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
Didn't have a great two days at work after this. How do you process this stuff when opening these wounds seems to attract the kind of people/situations that are the root of your anxiety? I hate being at work and feeling like I can't cover this stuff up. I guess it's necessary to be vulnerable about these issues but it's not easy.

Glad T. is back on Saturday from winter vacation to discuss.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: mojay on January 15, 2021, 02:16:50 AM
Dollyvee, it sounds like you have made some really strong self-discoveries  :cheer:

I think what you described about the vulnerability of people getting close coupled with "self-blame to stay attached to the person" would be very anxiety-inducing indeed! Almost like letting someone in could restart the pattern of self-blame. I really feel for you and wish I had something to chip in.
I can see you are working hard at IFS and being vulnerable even though it's difficult. Hoping your session with T is fruitful and wishing you lots of strength in the meantime!!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 15, 2021, 09:19:01 AM
Thanks Mojay - no need to feel like you have to have something to say. Thanks for just stopping by and well wishes :bighug: that's a good insight - it does start a process of thinking that I will find the "mom stuff" I need - the caring etc, and when it doesn't happen, I self blame.

Thanks too, I have a great T and over the last few years, I think we've covered a lot of ground. This anxiety is something I've had my whole life and at least now, I can pinpoint the source and not think, "there's something wrong with me." I guess the hard thing is that if I seem anxious or fearful, ppl think i'm just being weak, or that I don't have any confidence, and they can treat me badly.  Meanwhile, I have to deal with the part who has had to go through all those things growing up while ppl around me are behaving like that, and try to be confident. It's not like I haven't tried - I've been going to therapy off and on for 20 years and putting the work in. I guess this is the unique effect of my legacy burden. Very thankful that with IFS now, I understand it better.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 19, 2021, 05:51:52 PM
Still not feeling totally grounded and "myself." Did a legacy unburdening last night and felt a bit unconnected even though I tried really hard to be in myself. Felt like maybe there was a part in the way, even though I tried many times to step back. It was like a part was scared to let it go, but I don't know. Did feel some relief afterwards. This morning driving to work, a lot of stuff came up about just feeling bad and not wanted. Not feeling sorry for myself, just that emotion at that young age of like going through that and not really wanting anyone around me to see that.

Work is tricky. I don't want to deal with competitive women rn after that legacy stuff with my mom. V. over these games that ppl play because they are insecure and want attention, only I feel like a lot of ppl don't see it and are sympathetic.

Spoke with T and she listened and was helpful in advising that I don't have to put all this stuff down again. I think she was trying to allude about the age of my parts and got their defences worked up. I don't want to be demanding and say that this is how it is, but on the other hand I feel like I have to be true to myself and do things a certain way even if ppl don't understand it. It's hard to do that when a part of me feels like I'm disappointing people and I don't want to that. (I guess - see above about being alone and going through it alone)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 20, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
What you say about unburdening resonates with me.  I find myself wanting to hold onto what I know even if it isn't (or hasn't ever) serving me.  I hope that you find a way back to yourself and hold onto what makes sense to you. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 22, 2021, 11:27:47 AM
Thanks Rainy  :hug: I am hoping to be back to "normal," but I think maybe now what was my "normal" wasn't the healthiest. Unburdening is a part of the IFS process where you listen to what your parts have been carrying and release them. I did this as part of an unburdening for an inner critic who showed up as my mom. There was a "shock" when I reached my great-grandmother and a really angry/jealous (?) kind of energy that "supposed" they would try out IFS. It was very strange and perhaps was the "source" as it was much more dynamic after speaking with my mom and grandmother who sort of appeared as they were in photographs that I think I knew of buried somewhere in my subconscious.

Pretty awful day at work yesterday. I'm noticing "Sally," the part of me that tries to keep busy and keep people at a distance so they "won't see the real me." I realized that the real me is maybe not something bad, but something I do so they won't see the vulnerable parts. Have been working with a new client and we have a good relationship as he's asked me to do 7/8 projects now with him. Came back after the xmas break and it was good, we chatted etc. However, another person on the team had a lot of negativity towards me and felt/pretty sure he was gossiping about me. We were "friends" or so I thought in the past, and don't remember a falling out. The only thing I can think of is they were jealous of the relationship between the boss and I. I find my response to this behaviour is to isolate myself and show that I can do consistent work.

By the end of the two days together, I had a splitting headache around this guy ???, which I never get. I felt the boss's attitude towards me had changed and he and the other team member were mocking me behind my back. He has been around longer and has more of an "established" reputation, so I guess people listen to him. I have other situations like this where the boss will use my work all the time but has to be one of the "boys," and it leaves me feeling like it's me and my behaviour that's the issue. Really just leaves me feeling so unsafe. There is no HR for the self-employed, no standards, and my relationships/contacts are the ones who give me work. Part of me wants to not work with these people again and the other (frozen) part just wants to tell him to you know what. I feel like I've learned that you can't reason with other peoples' egos.

 


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 24, 2021, 09:37:49 AM
Had a phone call with my grandmother and grandfather last night. It was my grandmother's birthday. She has been trying to talk about giving me her jewellery over the last three phone calls. I don't really want to talk about it, I feel its manipulative and laden with guilt. She has been talking about how she is going to die for the last 25 years and doesn't take care of herself. We are supposed to feel perpetually worried about her while she feels sorry for herself and doesn't do anything to help herself.

Last night I told her that what she wants to do with her jewellery is up to her. I also said how I don't like how they went through my grandfather's apartment after he died (I'm pretty sure she was there and/or spoke with my mother about it) and took everything of value and left me to clean it up/didn't support me having to clean everything up and my mother not helping. She didn't say anything to this, there was no change in the tone of her voice. The only thing that happens is she feels sorry for herself that she's upset me, or how I'm mad at her. So, I have to explain how I'm not mad this is just what I'm feeling. I was explaining the situation about having to clean out the apartment to someone recently and never realized before how much it weighed me down. How I have had to suck up this stuff in the past and just deal with it with no support from my family.

I don't know if it was the legacy unburdening or something else, but I felt much more calm and emotionally detached when I was talking to her this time.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 27, 2021, 11:25:22 AM
Long post warning  :no: Just wanted to put it all in one place.

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with how to proceed with the IFS. I guess I can take some solace in knowing there is no "wrong" way to do IFS. Although, Earley does mention that it can bring up things/protectors which might halt further treatment (as I understand it).

Spoke with T about IFS and what was coming up, the issues at work and noticing how it seems to mirror one of my inner critic patterns - the Underminer where you keep yourself small so you're not attacked. Very true growing up in my house with a jealous, narcissistic and critical family who would occasionally respond with physical violence. So, as per T's suggestion, I made a round table (mind map sort of) of my parts and trying to connect their relationships somewhat.

Because of trauma and (probable) dissociation (not DID I think, just a lot of compartmentalisation), I feel like I have conscious and unconscious IFS dynamics or relationships happening. As another layer, I can see how these inner patterns also reflect outer patterns, or dynamics, in my family. I'm not sure if it's more beneficial to work on the ones which are "conscious" and more solid seeming than the "unconscious" ones which are a little bit more veiled but deal with a lot of the trauma I think. By veiled I mean that there might still be another part or protector in the way, even though I have done the initial stepping back etc. What happens:

IFS 1

I went back into the cave where I first saw my legacy burden with my mom to try and find the part which was anxious about speaking to my mom. Wanted to make sure the criticized child was ok with me doing work on the inner critic. The cave quickly turned into a stone room in a castle which was dark but there was some moonlight coming through the window. Was a girl lying on the floor in a heap and tried to talk to her but felt like the inner critic was around. I saw him and he was thin with very sharp sides, quite sly. Put him outside with two very large stone guards at the door. Tried to ask her what her age was and what she thought my role was. I was getting two numbers 40+8 . Tried to step back so there was just the 8 year old. Started getting feelings of my dad's house (I moved there around that age), but also had the feeling of being another age like I was a teenager. Asked her what she thought my role was and she said Self. Felt like she was unburdening after that as I started to get images of my high school at that time, feeling ostracized and just really alone.

Girl sort of felt like a tomboy, which I guess makes sense for the 8 year old and teen part. She kind of had emo hair (and I think there was another part that didn't like this). Asked her if she wanted to get rid of this stuff and we started burning it. Tried to make sure she was doing the burning. Felt like there was an aquamarine light after this. She seemed happier after this and I asked her if she wanted a new role and it was to be something along the lines of an inner champion - that she wanted to be happy for me.

Most of this seemed quite clear, but I have a feeling there is anxiety about it somewhere in my body. I came back later and did another IFS on the inner critic:

IFS 2

Went back to the room in the castle and it was bright and sunny. The girl seemed very happy to see me and had asked her if there was anything she wanted to unburden. I felt lots of movement/shakes in my upper back, shoulders, and neck. (This area was already a little sore, maybe after the previous IFS?). Asked if it was ok if I speak with my inner critic and that it would be safe; I would make sure it didn't come back. Asked her to go into a waiting room. Saw the critic and it was like a little thing in my abdomen. Went down into this dark abyss/ tunnel where there was pink & purply light which didn't really have any shape. I asked how old it was and it said 8 months. Asked if there was anything it wanted to show me and there was this red flash/jolt like anger; some sort of shock. Also noticed another little girl peeking around. I kept thinking she was 2 but she said 4 (?). She was peeking around sheepishly. Asked if there was anything she wanted me to witness and I couldn't see/remember what was there. I spent some time with her but it was like there was something blocking me from reparenting her and that I was at a distance. Pretty sure I tried to step back and make sure I was in Self but there was something there.

I got the impression of some green grass by a stream for the baby (as a safe place) and that that's somewhere it wanted to be. I'm glad I don't have to worry about real world safety  ;D Spent some time with it there. The little girl had some sort of black and white apparatus. I wanted to say puzzle but it didn't seem right for it to be that. Put a light bubble/forcefield around her for protection and she seemed really happy. Told her that I would come back.

At this point I tried to come out of the IFS and write it down but something pulled me back. I thought that maybe it was because I forgot closure with the inner critic. So, I asked if it was happy and wanted to move on in it's role and felt it in my solar plexus. At this point, I started getting impression there was another little girl part that wanted attention. She wanted to eat and felt like there could be a temper tantrum when things didn't go her way. This reminded me of my mom/grandmother dynamic and the part of me that is like that? I guess I had some negative feelings towards this part.

Upper shoulders, back and neck in a lot of pain/tension last night this morning, and guessing it has something to do with this IFS. I suppose I go along in this way, clearing things as they come up but I still get the impression of what is real? That before when the other (Sally) parts came up - there was something in the way, so I looked at what was causing the procrastination to do the exercises in the book. Now it's like there is something in the way after trying to do IFS around the things that came up around procrastination. I guess these things take time. Remembered the anxiety I had at uni (in my very good program) and how I couldn't write the final essays. How I would get insomnia and just couldn't do it, go forward. It was like watching myself have a break down.

It's like the emo girl should be the criticized child but once I speak to the inner critic, there is another level of parts below (which I am thinking is the subconscious). Maybe I have very presentable public parts and other parts that I learned not to speak about growing up. Ie there's the public parts that wear the shame and trauma openly, protecting the other ones that had to go through it??? I'm not sure how the dynamic works. I know that I wasn't allowed to speak about the problems with my mom to my grandmother, and that my grandmother knew what my mom was doing but thought she would make up for it? Yet didn't remove me from that environment. That I was told I had to forgive her, or it was intimated that another, rosier reality had to be presented/believed, that she would save me. In the second IFS as well, it felt like there was a distance between the Self and parts that I was reparenting at times.

I wonder if this is just me intellectualizing. If I'm just dissecting the Sally (for example parts) I first experienced because I didn't know how to handle them purely experientially (that the feeling of overwhelm was too much). If inner critic parts relate to other parts etc. That there's just a fear it's not going to be ok.

Ramble over...I think it's just bringing up a lot of things and I wonder the best way for myself to feel centred in all of it. It just seems complicated.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 30, 2021, 08:26:11 PM
Today was pretty profound. I think I had my first experience of "PTSD." Not that I haven't been living with it all these years, but the feeling of it in my body, everything that has been coming up with work, with relationships the past few weeks, and being consciously aware that that this is PTSD. I wasn't trying to block it out or ignore it, it wasn't buried and dormant. It was not reactive but coming from somewhere in my body. This happens during EMDR as well, I get involuntary shakes and movement, but this time it was like I was conscious of it coming up and my mind connected to it.

I have been dating someone new for the past month and a half and got a bit freaked out for a couple reasons and tried to remove myself from the situation (flight) and then decided to come back (and fight). I think it's probably finished now. Even though I apologized multiple times and explained where I was coming from (about the CPTSD and all), I feel I look over bearing and fatal attraction. It had a big impact on me in the sense that I realized I need to talk about my "triggers" with people I'm seeing. I'm going to have to talk about them for my sake. I feel like it will be bad either way - to keep it pent up and risk acting out, or to tell someone that I'm a bit messy and don't fit into the nice, little box that everyone seems to want. I guess it's just something I'm going to have to do.

I found this post that I wanted to share. I think it sums up so well the feeling of what is going on inside, how we had no control over our circumstances, and how people can react to our behaviour and take it badly or be judgemental. It's not our fault that we weren't designed to fit in boxes. Not that it excuses bad behaviour or personal responsibility.

https://www.quora.com/How-can-you-explain-a-PTSD-trigger-to-someone-who-isnt-familiar-with-PTSD
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 07, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
Feeling a bit disconnected this week that something is in the way and I'm not "in my body," that stress/disorganized thinking is has the seat of consciousness. Familiar feeling that I don't want to get close to ppl and am smiling but could never tell them what was going on, that it's like leading a double life with this stuff.  Was trying to check in what parts are active and it doesn't seem possible to connect.

Had a revealing session with T this week. After telling her about the phone call with my grandmother and the jewellery, she told me she thought of it as a ritual, the passing down. I had to maintain that I think it was given with the intent of my grandmother wanting to keep me close (narcissistic supply) because she's scared. T told me that she realized she was trying to save me from my grandmother's narcissism, by giving her actions meaning outside the narcissism so I would have something to hang onto. I appreciate that she was open how and reflective about her intent. The tricky part is that most ppl dismiss my grandmother's behaviour and see her as a sweet, old lady or someone who really loves me and I'm stuck trying to stand up for myself and the only one who is there for me. This leaves me feeling like I'm wrong or there's something wrong with me for feeling this way. I think it will be good to discuss further with T. The description death by 1000 cuts is so valid...it's so hard to point out these tiny narcissisms to ppl when most ppl don't think this way.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 10, 2021, 02:29:31 PM
Lots to unpack around my relationship with my grandmother and has been one of my biggest sticking points I think, in terms of feeling cared for and wanting to give everything back to have a good relationship. Also, in terms of what is really real.

TW
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All throughout my life my grandmother has always told me she loves me and would do anything for me. So, to the little me growing up she was a source of comfort and someone I could depend on in difficult times. At least that's what a part of my emotions think. She would also tell me we would feel guilty when she died and how we would miss her when she's gone etc but I guess that's a different thread. However, I also remember a lot of other things from that time - that I wasn't allowed to feel "angry" at my mom for the things she did, I would have to tailor who I was to fit in with her idea of the world and what was "acceptable." That she stopped the doctor from calling social services when my mom was leaving me alone to do drugs because she told him she would be there for me, yet I still remained in my mom's care and had to go through living with her and my stepfather and how they mistreated me. Recently, after my mother died, when the doctor told me about her problems with drugs and alcohol, which we all knew about and did nothing for her, I confronted my grandparents about this and how we did nothing. Her response was that she didn't know and I had to say what are you talking about? We all saw her passed out at previous Christmases and knew she was drinking. This then becomes, oh she did have a drinking problem later on. It's a constantly shifting line as long as she does not have to face anything and if I do bring this up, I'm mad at her and she goes into victim mode. It also makes me feel as if those things that happened to my mom weren't so bad, that this was normal for her to behave like that.

So, for me it's really hard to separate the parts of me that remember the good times with my grandmother growing up and the reality of what was/is going on, and the part that wants to care for her because she is my family. It's like being caught in a circle where I feel like she cared for me but then I have to think about what were her intentions for doing so at the time and if it was only so she could feel better about herself. Not a great place to be in.

I did an IFS yesterday hoping to look at the anxiety I have around making decisions/this low level anxiety - kind of like the one that was present in the cave with the inner critic - the fear of what might happen/ something will get me that I always seem to have. It wasn't an incredibly clear IFS, but got the impression of my grandmother's presence behind it. It didn't seem malevolent, but I did notice that it was hard for me to unblend from this part and it seemed very fused to me. When I did try stepping back, I started getting painful sensations (I call them "shopping with my mother"). When I tried to ask if there was a protector involved, I got the impression of "zodiac Capricorn," which is my astrology sign  :Idunno: I didn't really want to push this and was just kind of observing, even though it didn't make total sense.

Coincidentally, I watched a talk by Gabor Mate this morning on How Emotions Affect our Cognitive Functioning and the IFS began to make a little more sense intellectually. The talk revolved around "stressed parenting" and how it will affect the child's cognitive development, including dissociation and "acting out." From spending a lot of time with my grandmother when I was very young, I learned emotional attunement through her and her response to me which I needed given the stressed relationship with my mother (narcissist) and the stressed relationship between my parents (they were going through a divorce at the time). So, I can understand how this "grandmother part" is very fused with me. I can see how it regulates my response that things are going to fall apart (but also that it aggravates that, or another, response with my grandmother's disaster thinking - she was born in the Second World War.) I can also see how I would do anything to protect the relationship that kept me safe when I was younger, and would believe the things she told me like you can never trust men (I find it difficult to do so), don't get pregnant (I never have), and you can only ever depend on your family (I still have issues trusting ppl), which keeps me close to her in a way (??). So, it's tricky trying to navigate the "right" way to care for my family, and be there for myself, and the guilt over not being there for them, which I think is human. How do I deal with a part (and person) who helped me survive but perhaps had narcissistic intentions for doing so? I don't even know if I can fully wrap my head around that (betrayal). I guess this is what my T wanted to "save" me from and I guess I really do feel a part of me is kept as this dependant little girl through all of this.

If anyone is interested, this is the talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYvxlkCGmbQ&t=317s



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 14, 2021, 12:25:18 PM
Some odds & ends, processing this stuff this week. Maybe things to explore further.

Noticed today doing my weekend paper sudoku that it was very difficult for me to complete. Not to brag, but it usually isn't an issue and find the process of going through it relaxing. Patterns that I would normally see didn't jump out and was mentally scattered. Reminded me that maybe I am still triggered/going through an EF. When I tried to "put my brain back together" in the way it would be to be to solve this, I felt a lot of emotions going on underneath, which I didn't recognize was happening. Not necessarily ones I want to look at and reminded me of the chaos growing up.

Have been going through a bit of an 80's movie phase and watched Working Girl (love - relate so much to Melanie but also thinking where's my Hollywood ending?) and Baby Boom (with Diane Keaton) recently. A scene where DK is interviewing nannies really jumped out at me. One woman is just recounting a traumatic experience where she witnessed her father trying to kill (??) her mother. She was just talking about it, not overly distraught, and DK passed on her like this was something to be ashamed of or something that made her a liability. It really made me stop and think about how much of ppls' reactions I internalize about myself and make a fiction of what I'm supposed to be like. Not just my family, but how ppl in the world see this stuff and how I have to "watch out for my safety" by disclosing it. It makes me a vulnerable person and people at work and in the world can discriminate against it. I'm sure there is a manager in here dealing with it.

Was defensive with my T this week. Could be the 18 hour work day I had and the three hours sleep before the session but also some lingering feelings about the grandmother chat we had I'm guessing. It's a sore spot.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on February 20, 2021, 04:42:08 PM
It sounds like you have lots going on, Dollyvee, and lots to unpack. :hug:

Some of the things you've said reminded me of my own experiences with IFS. In particular, I've sometimes had parts carrying energy/burdens that weren't theirs to carry. The burdens belonged to other people, and my parts didn't realise that they didn't have to carry them.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 20, 2021, 04:53:04 PM
Had a good talk with T today and addressed how I was feeling when she brought up my grandmother's behaviour. She also had some things to say when I talked about dating and have realized that maybe I'm feeling really defensive because I already blame myself and am hard enough on myself for these things. I think it it also has to do with my family being critical of me for my mistakes, telling me it's not that bad, why am I like this, or just pretending it's not happening. That's narcissistic gaslighting for you. 

I'm beginning to understand how I've had to really compartmentalise these things just to get by. Not only get by, but succeed as I had a ton of pressure on me from my family too.

Feeling v. foggy the past couple days. Feeling really sensitive around ppl. Just feeling like I'm in a funk, and noticing that I want to do things, but then can't make up my mind, so do nothing. Like I want to exercise and go for a walk. So, I get dressed to go for a walk then decide maybe its better to exercise at home first and then do nothing because it doesn't "feel" right  :fallingbricks: This is a familiar feeling and wonder if it is because of differing ego states, or indecision as a result of narc a., or maybe both.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 20, 2021, 04:58:39 PM
Thanks Snowdrop...it's a bit of a strange one. I've tried to look up more info on how generational legacies/burdens manifest in terms of parts if that makes sense, but couldn't find much. It's like I can feel that maybe these things are "outside myself" but am curious how that looks on the "inner" parts map. How much of outside things do we mistake as our own?  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on February 20, 2021, 06:38:40 PM
I know that what helped me was to ask the part things like "is this energy/burden all yours?", or "how much of this energy is yours?". That helped me to establish whether it was a "normal" burden, or a legacy burden.

You mentioned feeling foggy. Could it possibly be a firefighter part? Just a thought.

:hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 21, 2021, 02:43:40 PM
Thanks Snowdrop  :hug: those are good points. Fogginess due to firefighting is possible...I feel like I've been eating without thinking the past couple days as well which is usually another firefighting behaviour for me.

I spent some time internetting and came across a book called Innovations and Elaborations in IFS which has a chapter on legacy burdens. I've answered yes to all the questions in the first table  :whistling: I guess I'm working out how to connect the free floating anxiety I feel to parts and how to discern if this is a legacy burden or a hypervigilant part. I'll try asking how much belongs to me. It's interesting that a lot of the questions related to the inner critic stuff I've been looking at like wanting to be small and not wanting to shine (or it being safe to do so). 

Also found a meditation on legacy burdens which was really powerful and kind of took me right to the part that was carrying a lot of stuff. I don't know if it's helpful or a hinderence that it jumped out like that but tried to go back and get permission from the protectors to talk to the part.

IFS - https://internalfamilysystems.pt/multimedia/webinars/meditation-legacies-osnat-arbel

Two ideas came up when she talked about legacy burdens. One was that nothing is safe* and the other was that you can't trust men. I stayed with the one about nothing being safe and the image of a little girl who had to take all this on came up (perhaps she is the one from the inner critic IFS?). There were a lot of tears when I connected to her and saw that she wanted to protect my family and make it so that nothing would hurt them. There were worries/concerns that came up about letting this stuff go and if i/she would be safe; that she had to take this on to be safe. When Orsan (the one giving the meditation) talked about what would be left, what is the heirloom, I got a sense of love. I saw the parts after and  another protective part that showed up, which was kind of like the inner critic part and was hypervigilant and wanted to raze everything to the ground. I felt like I could hold these parts there with some Self energy. However, when she said to put the part somewhere safe and that you would come back to it, I wasn't really sure where it wanted to go and had multiple options. Perhaps this is dissociation with differing ego states  :Idunno: I will go back to it, but I wonder too, if it's not another protective part involved that doesn't want to let it go and that I haven't fully unblended from taking it on.

*it's tricky because a lot of the "it's not safe" relates to hypervigilant CPTSD parts as well I think, but I also feel like I've become more aware of my grandmother's "disaster thinking" in the past few weeks. Both of my grandparents on my mom's side were small children during WWII and I think this has shaped a lot of their thinking, perhaps without realizing it. My gm is a hoarder and will never throw something out in case she needs it. It was really frustrating for me to grow up in that house as a teenager and literally felt like I was carrying around things I didn't need, or being asked to take on things that I didn't need. I feel like constantly being told things aren't going to work out/the world doesn't work that way also triggered my hypervigilance/insecurity/CPTSD that was there because of other events (w/ mom etc and dad's suicide).

In my scrolling, I came across an interview with MIchi Rose, who helped develop some IFS techniques, and thought it was interesting that she talks about the "void," which can either be an existential/angsty void or a healing void. It makes "the Black" I saw a little more understandable and wonder if these are the same. Although, I see it as a creative centre from where anything can manifest but kind of gave me an ah ha moment that even if I don't understand everything happening right away in an IFS it doesn't mean it's not valid. I guess a part of me just finds it unsettling (and alone) when I can't figure things out. I'm guessing one that doesn't feel safe relying  on emotions and experiential senses.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 22, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Feeling today that the IFS yesterday was bigger than I realized. I feel like it gives me a part of myself back that I had (as a teenager?) but gave up because I didn't know how to manage the self-doubt about "unblending" from my family. That there was a huge guilt about going off and leaving them behind, no matter what happened to me growing up. It shows me though, that I had good intentions for doing what I did but I guess that was also survival, which feels selfish.

Also, realizing that there was a lot of shaming in my family and my mom took a lot of that for rebelling I think. I was always told that you need to study etc because look at what your mom did, she wasted her potential. What a mind game being told to do better than the person I wanted to protect and be loved by who disowned me for abandoning her. And on top of that, these things that I actually needed to do (get a degree/good job) were necessary for my survival because no one was going to be there to help me. It was a no win situation.

Trying to go out for my walks and air this stuff. I have a favourite tree that I like to stop by. It grew tiny apples last year that no one seemed to find but me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Not Alone on February 22, 2021, 04:04:31 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on February 22, 2021, 10:37:39 AM
Feeling today that the IFS yesterday was bigger than I realized. I feel like it gives me a part of myself back that I had (as a teenager).........





Trying to go out for my walks and air this stuff. I have a favourite tree that I like to stop by. It grew tiny apples last year that no one seemed to find but me.

Both of these....beautiful.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 28, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
Thanks notalone  :hug: it's a special little tree

Kind of a gross week at work, going through the same difficult behaviours with a different group of people (I'm freelance, so environments are constantly changing). Someone who I've never met before, and had never talked to in my life, kept doing things deliberately to make my job more difficult, even after I asked them politely if they could please let me know when they're going to be changing something that's going to affect me (most ppl who do their job would normally do it). Brought it up with the organizers of the job and their response was, oh he's normally really good, and then did not address it further. There's a reason why bullying is rampant in this industry. So, am alone with how to handle it. Makes me feel like it is antagonizing this part of me that has had to deal with these things before. I don't want to be angry, just trying to deal with it professionally and frustrating when that's not recognized.

Was speaking with T this weekend and frustrated that while I was talking I could see her checking her phone a few times. Feeling really vulnerable this week after the IFS and week at work and last session with T, and it really made me feel like withdrawing more. That she's being like the ppl in my life who aren't listening to the stuff I have to go through and left me thinking that maybe I need to find a new therapist. Our big thing last week was that I had to stand my ground and explain why I don't think that being "friends" with someone before dating them is necessarily the answer; that even if I was friends with someone there is always the hypervigilant part inside that will panic about things. I know she's not an IFS therapist and some of the things I'm experiencing, I feel like I have to explain and defend like legacy burdens. I did really feel myself pushing her away because I felt like I was too vulnerable after saying the previous session was good, which I don't think she realized (??). It's that same thing where I can't be close/exposed to ppl and I can't turn it off. I guess I'm going to have to address this which feels not great.

Had some realizations at work related to the IFS last week and how I take on other ppls' stuff but need to look at it a bit deeper. Really feeling this week that I don't want to let anyone near me. Hard staying still even having casual chat at work.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 01, 2021, 08:32:38 PM
Had another "off" experience this morning waking up. Just after I wake up is usually a time when things kind of "make sense" and it's easy to get clarity on things that have been happening. Today when I woke up, I felt a really strong pressure in my chest. I put my hand on my heart (as a way to connect with Self energy) and felt the pressure in my heart relax. While I was trying to unpack what that pressure was, I fell asleep again and had a dream that I was at work and there was a colleague who was antagonising me. This someone from 7 years ago - maybe this was the start of things/being bullied? I remember having a really strong reaction to it at the time. Afterwards, I went outside in the dark and a man was sitting there, toothless. He had a bone/sledgehammer in his hand and was talking about how he was going to kill me/get me. This is really standing out.

The other morning when I was waking up, I had a funny feeling that I didn't really recognize/thought was odd. When I checked in to see what part it was, I got the image of a strange brown rectangle of semi-solid goo with tiny arms.

Trying to make sense of my "inner cosmology" and wonder if perhaps these are my parts or unattached critters as wild as that sounds. Trying to discern what "belongs" to me and what are my parts. Pretty tricky for me who always took on other peoples' stuff to feel validated. 

Have noticed though, over the past few months, that overall my sleep as been better through the night. No more waking up three hours after falling asleep  and not being able to go back to bed. That's pretty amazing.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 02, 2021, 06:48:00 PM
Had another awful dream last night - that I was part of this large family and was in danger (?), so I had to kill them. I went around killing ppl but couldn't escape this family. The bizarre thing was that it seemed they knew and that I was being watched by law enforcement but was allowed to continue. I guess this could be a metaphor for how I feel in my family - that I need to escape but can't and ppl think I need to be with them. Bad dreams always stay with me the next day. Had a nice day though yesterday, chatting with a friend from the gym and had a relaxing walk. So, strange where it's coming from.

Was reading an article on the Integration of Spiritual Experiences by Derek Scott today and something clicked when he wrote that we would not be able to thrive if we lived in a state of unworthiness and fear. I understand how I can sort of blank things out that don't conform to a positive view because the negative stuff was too bad to feel. I guess this is how/why the dissociation happens which could be really good to know.

He also mentioned that by just being with your parts, checking in and letting them know you're there, the more Self qualities you can bring to your system. I usually feel a block when thinking about Self energy but this made it seem that there are small, tangible things I can do and it doesn't seem so far away.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on March 02, 2021, 08:51:17 PM
I'm sorry you've had some bad dreams, Dollyvee. They sound quite threatening and scary.

I don't know if this is relevant, but I tend to get more vivid dreams when I do IFS stuff. Sometimes it can feel a bit like parts coming through or trying to share things with me while I'm asleep.

It sounds as though you've had some good insights with things. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 03, 2021, 11:05:58 AM
Thank you for checking in Snowdrop  :hug: I think the IFS on the generational legacy was quite a big one and wouldn't be surprised if it had lingering affects. Maybe I'm not connected but usually even if they are bad dreams, I can feel where it might be relevant in my life or just file it away under dream stuff. These things are all lingering though and really feels like a heaviness in the mind.

**possible TW**

I remember a friend telling me years ago that she went to someone for a clearing because they saw she had an "unattached burden." She used to have reoccurring dreams of this man chasing her with an ax. After she saw this woman, that reoccurring dream stopped. At the time, I thought "huh" but the memory has surfaced now.

**end poss TW**

I'm getting the impression with IFS rn that I'm sorting out what's "my stuff." After the generational IFS I did where the little girl took on a burden so that she could protect her family, I noticed this coming up at work and how I interact with other ppl.

One of my colleagues was under stress and had to set up everything herself in the morning because another member of the team was late. I stepped in and offered help in a very open way, trying to show my earnestness, even though I had worked with that person in the past and found them to be "tricky" (ie not really responsive to openness and wouldn't likely offer that kind of assistance in return). So, afterwards when their behaviour turned curt, sort of bossy, I noticed it but found that I couldn't respond in a similar curt way.

I guess I was thinking, ideally, that there would be a yeah we'll work through this together, which instead turned competitive. I think I saw that there was something else going on underneath the surface, that there was kind of a "pain" to them, and I felt empathy for that even though it left me vulnerable. I think this happens a lot and then I'm kind of left exposed and get upset at how ppl can be cruel to each other. There's that part of me that's willing to take on the pain even though it doesn't belong to me (otherwise I would get angry?)

_______________________________________________________________________________

Going through old journals trying to find a dream and have found a blurb copied from the Phillipa Perry book:

"A child's own instincts will tell them when we're not in tune with them, or with what's happening, and if we are (...?) we will dull their instincts. "

"For example, if we pretend we are never wrong, the result can be a child who overadapts - not only to what you say but to what everyone says. Then they may become more vulnerable to ppl who do not have their best interests at heart"

"Instinct is a major component in confidence, competence, and intelligence."

These really stuck with me - that even as children we know what is right, even if we are told we have to accept another reality. I guess deep down it gives me faith that I do know what is my stuff and other ppls, and makes me feel better about having confrontations with T when I don't feel like I'm being heard. That my instincts about my inner world are probably right for me and I don't have to give them up for my family. I guess the hard part (for me) is following those instincts when they don't align with family/accepted norms.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 03, 2021, 12:33:52 PM
Went to make noodles (my favorite) and it came to me that the dream had something to do with a guy that texted me about some investments we were talking about a month earlier at work. I guess I am romantically interested in him and thought he maybe he was interested in me too because of the vibes at work. I Maybe it's just stress about dating/getting close to ppl  and having my inner critic coming out  :Idunno:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on March 03, 2021, 06:40:40 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Sending you a hug,  :hug: 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 04, 2021, 02:51:34 PM
Thank you Hope  :hug:

Started journaling today about my murder dream (it sounds so horrible) and the guy from work. I'm really surprised that this is where it's come from but I can see the connection, that I don't feel free in the situation. I guess because it/he are related to stressful things at work. (We worked together once in the past six years ago and my impression of him was that he was supportive). I don't always think that colleagues contacting me is romantic but there were vibes at work. Maybe it's just really present in my mind because I had been thinking about getting in touch with him too.

Anyway, I think the issue is that I have to know where ppl are coming from and what their intentions are to feel safe. I think this is the same stuff that I had on my date (the dissociation) surfacing in a different way. That I can't just put myself out there.I discovered that it also feels like it's that same part who *gives everything* to ppl (to make them feel good/ safe?); or that I have to give up myself in order to have a relationship (I think this is anything friendship etc)  and feel safe? These seem like very disperate thoughts but I think the connection to that part who gives up things in order to feel safe/make others feel safe is important.

Want to do an IFS and connect to this part - connect to all my parts - but I still feel a procrastination and even stuck that I can't do this. I tried connecting to this feeling and I think it felt like charged anger??? I feel like I don't want to go back into that cave with the inner critic.

I've signed up for a four day course on Unattached Burdens and Guides that's given by Robert Falconer. I feel like a crazy person for thinking that this might be one of the impediments to my IFS progress right now (ie it doesn't have anything to do with me, esp coming from a narc family) and I feel like this would be a good way to get more info on the subject. If anyone is interested: https://robertfalconer.us/events/

:grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 05, 2021, 12:38:30 PM
Trying to book an appointment with an IFS practitioner for a couple sessions who is a little more on the open minded side. I think it would be a good idea to get a second opinion about what is going on besides my own and my T who is great, but not versed in IFS.

***Just putting all this down here as it's cathartic to get it out, even if it doesn't make sense right now***

This all feels very existential and out there but that's what's coming up for me. Have been feeling bad about not going out, just focusing on sorting out my feelings and came to terms that it's kind of a meditative state. I'm doing a lot of work even if it's maybe not socially acceptable.

The stuff around the m. dream and feeling like I have to cut ties with ppl who get close to me is really familiar. It's kind of a big wow, I didn't realize I felt it that deeply or that it was such a feeling of annihilation to just be around ppl.

Had another dream after waking up. Was a woman in it who I thought was Chaka Khan - I was kind of in awe. When she came closer, she looked very tired and was bald on top. Got the impression that it causes me anxiety that I don't know what ppl's intentions are with me. That I could believe the illusion (she's a celebrity/Chaka Khan/only does good) and meanwhile she's not (and has ill will towards me). She was sitting with me outside later and we were having a good conversation and I realized I couldn't connect to the network. My boss sent me a new password but couldn't get on. This stands out as problems to connecting to something, but not sure what.

It makes me wonder if this anxiety is about connecting to something inside (an inner state like Swedenborg did for ex) which is maybe outside our normal reality. This seems out there but if it's fear of connecting to a part (or fear driving the part), why can't I seem to unblend from it? That this anxiety/freak out is behind everything? It would then mean an exile is in the SOC  :fallingbricks: My other best guess rn is that maybe it's connected to the part that wants/agreed to take on stuff for my family and maybe feels like I would be hurting them if I let go of it (??). So everything is a panic.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 07, 2021, 10:34:24 AM
Had another negative dream last night. This man who looked like Charles Bronson was with my mom and very aggressive towards me. I think I woke up and in half sleep I thought about how harsh my mom could be towards me.  I guess in some ways this was the fear of the the little girl that had to experience the way my mom treated me.

When speaking with T yesterday I talked about the part of me that sometimes has a difficult time connecting to or trusting parts of me. I'm not 100% sure what this part is. It came up afterwards how I doubted myself after my mom started treating me after I decided to move out when I was eight, telling me that I abandoned her. I think I'm just beginning to feel the connections on a deeper, emotional level and maybe this is coming up in my dreams but don't know.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Not Alone on March 07, 2021, 06:36:03 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on March 07, 2021, 10:34:24 AM
It came up afterwards how I doubted myself after my mom started treating me after I decided to move out when I was eight, telling me that I abandoned her.

The mom in me is saying, "What?!" Eight year olds don't abandon their mothers. Moms are supposed to parent the 8 year old. If she leaves, the mom should be taking a long, hard look at herself and the home situation. She should be saying, "Why isn't it safe? Why am I not safe? What does my child need? What changes/help do I need?" I understand that you took what she put on you, that you abandoned her. But that is all on her.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 08, 2021, 11:01:23 AM
Bought some palo santo incense the other day and lit some before bed last night. It brought a good feeling and woke up this morningcalm and rested.
______________________________________________

Thanks notalone - yr a good mom  :hug:

The bold letters are a good source of strength/reminder because there is a lot of "soft abuse"/gaslighting (I don't really know what to call it) that comes along with my mom's behaviour. I feel how overwhelming and levelling this was/is on the inside (I call it the flame-throwing, the feeling inside that just wants to destroy everything). The feeling that never had an outlet because I was told that that's just the way my mom is; that I have to forgive her because she's family and that's important. So, my grandmother would say that she has my back and will protect me, do anything for me, that I'm her precious angel, and then just "allow" (not use the bold type face, saying it's all on her) my mom to behave like that.

I saw ppl saying bad things about my mom as a teenager, being so angry at how she was with me, some of the things she was doing, but it was like I was numb to what they were saying. Maybe because of my GM and thinking that I did have to take this all on, or maybe because I just wanted a "mom." There was the part that wanted her v. much to be a part of my life. I remember how upset I got when all the parents were going to be at a friend's house before my graduation to send us off and she never showed up. She said she got lost and couldn't find the address but never called to work it out.

After I put myself through art school (working an awful job on the weekends because my grandfather was upset that I left university and wasn't going to help me out (what was I doing with MY life???!!!), I told my grandmother that I wanted her and my step grandfather at the grad ceremony because they had been there for me and supported me. My grandmother went behind my back and instead invited my mother. Then said, "oh your sGF couldn't make it, so I asked your mom." Then anytime I get upset with my grandmother (like this), it's why are you so angry at me and she goes into victim mode. This whole dynamic spun me in circles for a long time and is why I get defensive when I talk about my GM with ppl and they are not looking behind her actions like me because I'm the one who has to take it on. It's frustrating that so much of this looks like a "normal" family from the outside.


TW______________________________________________

I understand the aggressiveness behind the Charles Bronson character in my dream (he's an interesting choice tho) a little better. I remember when I was trying to sleep (7ish) and my mom came in to ask me a question. When I didn't tell her, that I was trying to sleep, I could hear her saying the little witch won't tell me to my step father. Or the time she hit me because my eyes were smiling or pinned me to the ground as a teenager saying you're not stronger than me yet when I wanted to wear an old sweater of hers that she never wore. I'm sure there are more that I've buried. Am noticing that with her and my step-father it was was like they could both be negative to me. It did feel like teaming up on me. So, am recognizing my mom  a bit more in this aggressiveness and how hard that must've been for me to handle at that age, and how it got worse because this was minimized,

________________________________________________

I don't know how this relates to my inner critic. I feel like at the time I knew that my mom and step father's behaviour was wrong and made the choice to live with my dad. Is this fame thrower/Charles Bronson the result of being forced to accept my mother (and a different reality from my own)? I think this aggressiveness relates to some parts perhaps in IFS - the one that was just really angry and had to put in a Chernobyl type bunker and my mom part in the cave who wouldn't leave me alone. It hard to see these as parts of me because I feel like I didn't want to accept the chaos (knew better than to accept it) but had to; that as my other T said, my heart isn't broken and is working fine. Maybe I'm struggling to accept that the reality was chaos because I don't want to let that into my life? I'm just trying to make sense of what my parts are saying.

*all these questions are rhetorical and just what I ask myself to sort  through all this  :stars:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 10, 2021, 11:43:58 AM
Had a meeting with the other therapist and it's too bad it didn't work out because my schedule needed something more flexible. I woke up the night before the appointment at 2am which I hadn't done in a while. So think some part was anxious. More insight into this part would be great.

Meeting with T went well this past weekend and feel a little more relaxed about where we're at. I think she was just distracted and checking her phone and had something on her mind but didn't have anything to do with "me." I didn't being it up with her.

There's another seminar on legacy burdens with the therapist who did the legacy burden meditiation I did the other week. I think it looks really good.

Potential new temporary T suggested I look at Robert Falconer and said it was good that I'm going to do the unattached burden workshop. I read a transcript of a podcast he did yesterday about sexual abuse and some things came up. Some years ago my grandmother mentioned that my mom called her drunk and started saying "why did she let him (a neighbour at the time?) touch her/do that to her." I remember my gm being sort of dismissive - like what was she going on about. Given my mom's erratic behaviour sometimes (and probably because I harboured resentment over her treatment of me, or knowing she would be dismissive of me?) I didn't really pursue it but thought that's not good. I think I had a notion that my grandmother and her would talk about it, that it was private. I don't know.

It made me think last night about my mom's behaviour and her self-loathing (this could be generational too). It would explain a lot if something did happen to her as a child and she never dealt with it. It makes me really upset to think she might have had to face something like that. It doesn't excuse her behaviour to me but it does make the part of her doing those things easier to understand. It would be great to ask my grandmother about this - to have an answer or idea about if it's reality or not - but have to accept that I probably won't get those answers.

Also, had kind of a breakthrough in thinking about my gm last night and was better able to see it from a distance. Maybe it was down to the fact he sounds like a narrator in a movie  ;D but listening to these videos was really good at actually classifying my gm's behaviour as narcissism and understanding why I was so confused for my 20's. Saying things which are slightly critical and meant to put you down while telling you they know better/best (delusional thinking) and are really doing it because they love you/are looking out for your best interests is our relationship to a tee. Also, the part about how they're not going to listen to anyone and just do their own thing is 100% her. However, I think she goes into victim mode when I try to separate myself which is perhaps more covert narcissism in that it makes me feel like I'm responsible for her feelings. Wow  :blink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-nq1Nzn1xs



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 17, 2021, 10:37:42 AM
Had a very "big" session with my T last Saturday. I was explaining to her remembering the phone call and the possible SA my mother went through and there was a flood of tears and release, which I can still feel in my shoulders and upper body. We did some tapping to and when she asked me what I saw, I thinking that how my family would say why was I getting upset over something that I didn't even know was true; I must've been making it up. Or that they would make fun of me for feeling all this. Everything felt raw and my thinking was all over the place. I guess this is the trauma brain. I'm trying to make sense of how to work through these things and then have to go to work and still be looked at as competent and someone who "has it all together." I guess this is what I've been doing my whole life.

Reading The Energetic Dimension by Ann M. Drake and it fit with what is happening right now. I do feel like there is something "inside" me that is not my own. According to her, people in situations of abuse take on some of their perpetrators energy and, at times, the perpetrator can take their energy with them which must be retrieved. I wonder to what extent this is happening with me and how it relates to my parts and how they function. If it's showing up as the inner critic and if there is a "physical" part; that this is where my anxiety and procrastination is coming from.

Woke up in the middle of the night again and tried to unblend and see where/what was activated. I saw the feeling of wanting to go back to my grandmother, that that would make everything better. When I tried to unblend from this, I saw a small red, jelly baby like figure that gave off a feeling of anger. I will try to do an IFS on this part when work settles.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 19, 2021, 11:01:10 AM
Attended the 2nd day of the seminar on Legacy Burdens yesterday. A lot of information and unexpectedly (to me) participated in some dyad IFS sessions with other attendees which was very moving. It was quite powerful to participate in helping one go through their own unburdening process. On the other hand, I sort of tuned out watching the demonstration unburdening. I think a part v. much like my grandfather was activated and started questioning the truth of what was being said; that they were skirting some issue or maybe failing to look at an unpleasant truth. Writing this am realizing maybe why memories attached to him may have popped up in my (attempted) unburdening.

It was interesting that in my partner's unburdening, I could feel the energy at times. The pleasant energy when she sat with her child part and at one time a pressure in my chest. Tbh it does scare the crap out of me that I feel like I have trouble discerning what energy was hers and what was mine. I think it's because I associate the pressure in my chest with me doing something wrong.

IFS

Trying to come up with a phrase that signified a legacy burden we were carrying and all I could feel was an energy of my grandmother and this adamant feeling. I think I just tried to go with this feeling and not try to fit it into a phrase. I think it took me back to the cave, or I was again looking at the exile from the cave, and could see her more closely. She had a tv screen for a face, with white, static snow. It was a "blank" expression, no reception. I do sometimes feel this way, or have felt this way when trying to describe things - that nothing comes out when asked about me. My partner suggested that maybe it's another protector and that anxiety can also be a protector. It also makes sense that sometimes I can't connect to parts and see what is going on - just this noise.

In the next dyad, I started back here with this exile/protector and felt an angry pressure in my neck and right shoulder. When she asked what is making it angry, it sort of stopped and felt like an animal that heard a sound and cocked it's head. I had an image of a dragon (and puff the magic dragon). Then things sort of got complicated. The dragon became the vindictive/malicious person I saw in my other IFS, the one I felt was like my mom and it linked to my grandmother and I could see the dynamic playing out of a wailing princess. It's really hard for me though to understand what I feel towards this part. I feel like I'm willing to look at it openly, but at the same time there is a feeling of wanting to protect myself and that it can't be a part of me. IT's such a strong response, like on the inside, I am just squishing my eyes shut so I can't see what's happening because there is an intense pressure in the back of my head that I feel. It's like I have to fight it off. Over the years, I think I have got used to this.

So, then my thinking part steps in I think, and tries to rationalize that maybe this is a shadow part of me that I don't want to see. My partner had me take some deep breaths and focus on my breathing to stay calm and some lovely images of mushrooms and little flowers popped up and I was smiling. At the same time, the other part was still there and I could feel myself holding back or knowing that I would have to deal with that part and it was like this good versus evil cartoon. Every time we tried to focus on that part it was just stress and the wincing feeling. I really don't want to force it. I think I will need to ask what parts are present next time. It just feels like everything goes into high stress, high alert.

Eventually, I did start getting an image of some colours and saw a bright blue and aquamarine. I felt it around my mouth. An image of a strawberry popped into my head and I thought about how I couldn't pronounce the word properly as a toddler and my grandfather loved to tell the story of how I would say straw bee berry instead of strawberry, I started to cry and it came up how close my mom was to my grandfather and how devastated she was when he died and how harsh I think he was on her at times when she was a teenager. Writing this now, I am remembering how he would call me a dummkopf or make fun if we didn't know something. In a teasing way, but he always had to be right and was very set in his ways. We (I) had to be "careful" because he would cut us off if we did something he deemed "foolish." My grandfather and I did have a good relationship but I was the one who stood up to him and went my own way eventually. I think this is the rebellious part acting towards my legacy burden. My thinking part is interjecting that maybe this behaviour had something to do with the scapegoating dynamic between my mom and I?

Lots to unpack again. If anyone is interested, I can put up my notes from the last day.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 25, 2021, 10:36:05 AM
Watched the Allen vs Farrow documentary. A lot of things stuck with me. The manipulativeness and subtlety, understanding the confusion of "this was someone I loved" and how to hold those two things together and what doing that puts you through.

What really stood out rn was her family's reactions to her. Her brother who "fought injustice" telling her to shut up because he didn't want to face it. No one talking about it, and seeing her feeling like she was the cause and having to carry everything inside. That she was on her own in so many ways (in a family/mother that supported her too!), especially with the authorities who lost notes or mishandled the case. I have a lot of respect for the ppl who walked away from their jobs or fought to be rehired after wrongly dismissed after seeing what was really going on.

_________________________

Processing the legacy burdens workshop and on pause a bit because am working. Really feeling this energy of being the scapegoat or teased/made fun of. Can see it come up at work around ppl, that they think I don't know how to do something and it's almost like I do involuntary go into the role of playing the clown; like it just happens that I will put up something in a completely awkward way when I am doing it in front of ppl. But the reality (interesting choice of words) is that I actually do know what I'm doing and can do it fine when not under pressure, or no one's looking.

I can see where this would be like the Sally part, where it felt all the judgements and attitudes from men ("oh she's just a dumb blonde" kind of thing). Perhaps this is also a part of a legacy burden and wonder if it is attached to the grandfather feeling in my IFS or something else. In my mind, it's just good memories and always attributed the nervousness around ppl and the awkwardness that comes out to my stepfather and his bullying but am thinking now that women do marry their fathers. So, maybe there is something in there that I need to look at besides the good memories.
________________________

Feeling like I have to apologize to ppl for "putting up with me rn;" that am saying too much or saying the wrong things at work. Am being too honest, but a part needs to be honest, to fight against injustice
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on April 01, 2021, 07:48:31 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I was reading what you wrote about the documentary - it sounds interesting.  Your legacy burdens workshop also sounds like it was useful, and I wanted to cheer you on in supporting your parts, and acknowledging that part of you that needs to be honest and fight against injustice.  That's a road that is sometimes rarely striven upon. 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: owl25 on April 03, 2021, 12:12:42 AM
Hi dollyvee, it's been a while since I've been here and I just caught up a little on your journal. Your workshop sounds fascinating, how did you come across it?

Sounds like things feel difficult right now. I hope some of this gets a little easier.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Bach on April 03, 2021, 02:12:10 PM
 :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 03, 2021, 05:36:22 PM
Thank you Hope  :hug: it's good to remember that I am supporting  them by doing this, which I sometimes lose sight of when what they're showing me doesn't make sense right away.

Thanks Owl - welcome back  :hug: I think my parts are just showing me a lot of different things that I'm starting to process. I registered for the Bob Falconer workshop via his website and Life Architect. They sent me an email saying they were offering a legacy burdens workshop as well and had already been doing some reading about it. The Unattached Burdens workshop starts on April 17th:

https://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=14181.msg109659#msg109659

Thanks Bach  :hug:
_______________________________________________

Feel kind of tuned out after working so much the past week. I guess I haven't been checking in with my parts. Tried to unblend and felt like couldn't unblend from something.I think maybe it's just a lot for me to be around other ppl all the time right now. That I need to find space to centre myself. My grandmother went into the hospital and has pnuemonia but is doing ok and they will release her next week. Will write more later but am feeling exhausted.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 04, 2021, 07:35:38 AM
After some quiet time yesterday, noticed that some things have been happening in the past week which upset me/affected me. Was working at a specific site that had very "particular" rules. Was told that I wasn't allowed to sit in an aisle as it was a fire hazard by the location supervisor. However, by the end of the day/job anyone was sitting in the aisle with lots of equipment there under her watch. I feel like she did not like me and there was nothing to do about it.

Had a similar experience driving the other day where a man cut me off twice and then put his brakes on in the fast lane instead of moving over so I wouldn't pass him. I wasn't tailgating etc. So, people say not to take other's reactions personally which is hard for me to do in these situations and they bring up feelings of needing to protect myself. These incidences happen regularly enough, and usually when I am feeling good about myself. It's hard to talk about (I'm not 100% sure why) but I guess something in my person challenges their fundamental view of the world. It brings up the idea of "don't shine too brightly" and puts me back in the place of feeling like I have to deal with an unpredictable mother.

Also, struggle with the idea of people can only do things to you if you let them. What is my reaction to be in this case? When the concept of fighting back (against my mom) was met with powerlessness? I guess I can realize that I am not that age anymore, but maybe there is a part that is still there.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 05, 2021, 02:48:15 PM
Called my grandmother and grandfather and spoke to her in the hospital. This could be part of the thing that's bothering me as well. Before when I spoke to my grandfather after she had gone in, he was saying how he doesn't know if he'll be able to take care of her and she may need to go into a home. I looked at covering the costs of getting a private nurse to help a few times a week.

When I spoke to both of them (while he was there visiting) and suggested that that might be an option. My grandmother was like thank you, that's very nice but we don't need that, and he was like yes, we'll keep it in mind. I don't know what is this idea of never needing any help? That she can get by fine without us when she can't even walk? It's like keeping up appearances.

I'm trying to find the balance between the me that would've tried to swoop in and take care of everything to make her feel better, and being involved to a certain extent because I do care, but also having boundaries. When there is no one else to help really, that my brother doesn't call them, but I also wonder if they've ever asked him to do something? I guess there is a part of me that does feel good for being needed like this. I do wonder if it's a healthy part.
____________________________

My grandmother was hospitalized after I had the realizations about her and my mom. Part of me wonders if they're related.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 11, 2021, 08:24:34 AM
Discussed my GM with T this week and was good to get out how frustrated I feel by the dynamic. How her response was "Your GF is trying to get rid of me" instead of hearing that he is having a difficult time, and being frustrated that, by responding like that, we can't work out together how to manage what is happening. My T said that maybe I feel upset that it is because she is not being there for me (??? can't remember exact wording) but see it as more of a survival response; that I need the family to survive in order to be taken care of. Something I felt growing up.

_______________________

Went back to do the other part of the Legacy Burden workshop and during the meditation, I got the impression of wisdom from my grandfather; that there's a lot of knowledge in what he passed down. IRL though, I feel like I've had to block out a lot of what he said and that there were very rigid parameters sometimes for our behaviour. Like you have to be on time because it shows you care, not just saying it once and letting us absorb it, but essentially telling me (us?) that we don't care about it/him by doing these things. I guess it could be very one sided and he was the one that was always right. A lot of the times he was, but still. It was like having no freedom. If you deviated from what he said, you were "out;" cut out of the will for me or he would complain to no end about what you were doing. I guess in his own way, he was passing on his way of caring giving everything he lived through (WWII, Russian occupation, moving to a new country). There's a lot to unpack.

I noticed that I could feel more relaxed during the meditation - that I felt fear but could also kind of be with it and it would subside. However, I did notice though, that my firefighters might have been at work. I had some chickpeas in the oven, then "had" to get up to check on them which turned into, I'm quite peckish...I should make these noodles, and so on. It made me uncomfortable to be with these ideas and feelings. I guess because a part of me is dealing with going "against" my grandfather and what that meant for my survival.

_______________________

Poss TW

Super discombobulating week at work but one that also turned good in the end. Tho still in some sort of heightened anxiety/EF. I had an incident with an HOD last year where they threatened that I "would feel the back of their hand." They gave a half hearted apology which was essentially just telling me everything that I did wrong to provoke them into acting that way. I left the job that day and went to the overseeing body for the sector who told me that really the only thing I could do was take anti-bullying training. Anyways, I became aware that they were going to be working with me this week and went to my boss who said not to worry, he would have a word with him and he wouldn't be a problem. I'm grateful to my boss and team who said they would have my back, but at the same time I don't feel protected; that I've never felt protected by anyone (?); that there is a part of me at the end of the day who is poised and ready to fight because that's what I had to do growing up - that I was disappointed by all the adults around me. But how do I explain this to my boss or the ppl around me who said they would help  :fallingbricks:

So, to me, the guy is the type to not let things go. While having my lunch in the car, he was walking up and down and needing to go into his car (which happened to be in front of mine) several times. I decided to tell the organizer and he said that the guy got so mad at another person the day before that they spilled hot water all over themselves and had to get burn cream. He listened to me and was supportive, but I still felt all this anxiety about telling him (maybe because it was a guy and when I tell guys about things like this they usually stick up for their "own"). Also, another collegue happened to call me the next day and I casually mentioned I had to work with a difficult person from X department who threatened to hit me and right away she said "please tell me it's X." She knew who it was right away and told me how abusive he was towards her and other people on her job. It is a relief to not have to keep all of this inside really and not feel like the problem is me.

Poss TW end
___________________

Like Hope, I'm spending a lot of my free time reading right now. I don't know if it's 100% a distraction but am coming back to some things which give me a feeling of lightness, and were things I was interested in a long time ago but seem to have taken on new meaning. I think I would like to find a way to keep them in my life but want to find a way that they best fit with me.

The Supreme Siddhi of Mahamudra
The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep
Meeting the Shadow - The Hidden Power of Meeting the Dark Side of Human Nature
Finishing the other Ann M Drake book - Healing of the Soul: Shamanism & the Psyche

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 17, 2021, 10:29:43 AM
Have read some of your posts and would like to respond to the journals, but feel like I just need to get this down first and take a little time.

I guess the universe is bringing it all together the past couple weeks, or the subconscious issues that maybe pull things to me to be worked out are trying to get through. I had another intense experience at work this week. Was really comforted after last week and the response of my team, and later another collegue saying that she also had a big issue with this person (I just mentioned the person's job description and they guessed who it was; apparently he has a reputation for being aggressive), but had to work with another "personality." I've had three big issues in my eight years doing this job and now back to back weeks working with two of the three individuals involved.

Before Christmas, a guy at work made an exceptionally rude comment and I spoke with the company about it. He was on the job this week and I felt a vibe day one. The next morning, after I came back from getting a coffee, I noticed a scratch in my door. It didn't seem right, and had the idea to get cctv footage from the building. They had a camera pointed at my car, and in the time that I was away, he could be seen walking around my car and, in the slowed down footage, you can see something sharp in his hand. Spoke with the comapny handling the job who said it was unacceptable, something had to be done, then spoke with him and left me alone with him after they "spoke" to him. Luckily, my team was there. He came at me and said he didn't say that and I was accusing him of all this stuff, wrecking his relationship with a company and someone he works with. I just had to stand up and say that I wasn't going to explain myself and to speak with the company as they had all the information.

I'm realizing as I'm writing this that going into detail is one way I have of proving myself right (protecting myself), that this is something I've had to do in the past to protect myself against behaviour like this; trying to defend against thinking it must have been me - what did I do to deserve this. I had my appointment with T the day after it happened and think I was/am in shock. That I was watching what I was saying, being hard on myself for saying "you know" because my grandfather told me it was annoying when I said it so much. I guess I was projecting that reaction onto her and trying to protect myself.

I feel like I'm doing well rn, have been building supportive relationships at work, feel like I'm making headway connecting to myself and things that matter and then stuff like this comes up. I guess maybe this is old energy and thinking that needs to be worked through, in terms of how I think about myself when things like this happen. That I'm not a bad person and I don't deserve this.

_____________________

Was out walking and came across a mother and a baby lamb that had just been born. It was curled up and could just barely open its eyes. Was ruminating about someone yesterday and stopped at the special tree and spent 10 minutes beside it. When I left, I realized I had been running things over in my head that I didn't need to.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on April 17, 2021, 03:04:28 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I think it's lovely that you enjoyed some time by the special tree and saw the new born lamb as well.  That sounds relaxing.   :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 18, 2021, 01:50:09 PM
Thanks Hope  :hug: I've checked back in on the little guy, I was worried it wouldn't make it as the weather has been cold at night, and it's doing well I think. Made sure not to get to close and scare them. The moms are protective though and keep them safe, but is nice to watch them running around.

_______________________

Attended Unattached Burdens course yesterday which was fascinating. He showed a video of Richard Schwartz doing an IFS session with someone who had one and it was so interesting to watch. I feel like there's so much room outside what is considered normal to explain our internal processes, and maybe because of my upbringing, for so long I just wanted a "normal" family (to be supported and loved for me) that I blocked out a lot of other ideas (connections) because, I guess fundamentally, it didn't feel safe. Frank, the IFS-ee in the video, describes two fears when talking about UBs - that there is something in him that is malevolent, and that ppl will think he's making it up (he's crazy). I relate to both. He also mentions it's shame that keeps him from talking about these things, that what if there is something wrong with him. There's something in my IFS that comes up which is either a shadow aspect or possibly a UB. Still trying to discern what is what.

IFS has kind of been on pause for me as I'm trying to make sense of what it's shown me in the past. I think there's a part that maybe needs to know what it all means so it can process it and feel safe. Thinking about "guides," something that will come up in the final UB seminar, I did an IFS back to the "black" to see if the Inuit faces/Native American figures (shadows) that I had seen were maybe guides. After the UB workshop, this is maybe not the safest, but I forgot about that. When I went back the figure of an Inuit (?) woman with a round face came out though she did look more European thinking about it now. She was like a grandmother/wise woman with long grey/white hair. I had a part that was very anxious about what was going on, excited but also like it was trying to force things (a "realness" onto it?) so that I could be sure about what I was seeing, that it was concrete. That part felt very young, and is familiar. I think it comes up in relationships (all the time?) that I have to make sure that person/security is not going away; that it's a type of protection. I couldn't unblend from this very well and almost forgot to. It felt like it was overwhelming Self. It's interesting, I think maybe this part is related to my grandmother? That that's the protection I needed and got from her (even if it was maybe an illusion).

On another IFS yesterday (well, thinking about a situation and trying to unblend), I noticed some things. When thinking about a person, it was like images of his opposite came up; ideas that might have made him uncomfortable. That a part of  me did this to protect myself, so maybe it would be awkward with this person or distance between us at the least. I actually think this happens quite a bit in different situations that there's a part that just "makes things awkward" but can see it now that it's protecting me.

Lots of things to work out, but good to write it down even if these things are not the easiest to talk about.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 10, 2021, 06:42:11 AM
It's been an intense couple of weeks - my grandmother passed away last weekend and I think I'm still working out how to process that.

I think it's good to take some space for me and work it out. I don't want to fall into any old patterns of leaping to fill my family's need and feeling like I'm being taken advantage of. My brother is back after not speaking to my grandparents for two years and part of me is upset that my grandfather is willing to put aside his lying about me so he can speak with him, which makes him feel better. I never wanted them to choose sides I guess, but just recognize and stand up for what is fair - acknowledging and holding him to account about his behaviour. But it seems like, again, this (and I) get left in the dust over his needs. So, a part of me is pulling back and just working out how to deal with this and these new feelings towards it. Funnily enough this seems to be a similar pattern to what is happening at work.

This weekend was the last weekend of the Unattached Burdens course and I don't even know if I want to write what came up. Part of me is thinking that surely I must've made this up because a part of me is scared (taking responsibility again).

IFS meditation
We were asked to check in with our parts and let them know we were going to be going on a journey and see if they were ok with that and to unblend. I did this and really tried to be in person/Self on the path we were walking. I chose to take the higher path and as soon as I started walking along it - I saw a white face with red eyes that felt like "male" energy. I kept walking and reflected that maybe this was the dragon I saw in a previous IFS. I felt the familiar "bad smell" feeling where it's like something inside makes a face and squishes up to avoid something - like my eyes shut tight and I just want to get away (all metaphorically but it's there). So, concentration was a bit of an issue and it felt like this feeling  inside was hindering that concentration. I also felt more pain in my hip - it became uncomfortable and I moved positions several times. (In the first class we did a meditation where we scanned our bodies with a ball of light and I noticed some brown energy in my hip along with some other places). It then occurred to me that Bob mentioned that unattached burdens can have red eyes. I tried to continue with the meditation and find my guide. I had an image of a small thing with kind of a mushroom cap but it was difficult to unblend from the feeling I described above.

The night I did this meditation, I woke up in the middle of the night and had some thoughts about it and made some notes that if it is a UB, or whatever it is, affects the belief of who I am as a person - that I then think there's something wrong with me, that I'm a bad person.  That maybe this came in at a time when I was dealing with my mom behaving the way she did and holding onto this gave me a sense of power and control; that there was a fear there at this time and I could hold onto this? It's like this fear that I don't feel good enough (or just this fear really) keeps me in a space where I don't feel confident or recognise my true value, or give me that ability to say no/stand up for myself/put a boundary up. Tbf I am doing these now, but it's like I'm stuck in a loop of drawing the negative energy to me in the first place where I have to do these things (like all the crazy experiences at work). So, maybe there is something on an unconscious level that I haven't worked out and maybe this is it? I also have the feeling of accomplishing things in my life but it's as if I can never stop to enjoy them, that it's never good enough.

Part of me says everyone has these issues, but in speaking to a friend who has similar trauma (narc family etc) he's really good at recognizing this is his family and what is good for him, to stand up for himself etc. With me it feels like it just becomes doubt and a question.

I have a session with a therapist that specailizes in unattached burdens and IFS booked so let's see what comes up. It just feels to weird to even consider this but I want to get to bottom of what is happening for me.

:grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on May 10, 2021, 10:18:16 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
Sending you a hug, if that's ok  :hug: 

I've not read all your post, but I saw that your grandmother passed away last weekend, and you mentioned taking some space for yourself - people have said to me to take time and be gentle with myself, and that was helpful to hear, so I wanted to also say that to you, and hope it's helpful for you.

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 04, 2021, 11:25:45 AM
Thank you for the hug Hope  :hug: It was helpful to hear that.

Feeling in a different place in a couple ways. I had an IFS session and met quite a few parts that I'm happy to know are inside of me. I think I've also found some information about my health which was illuminating and tied to trauma. The more I research SIBO, the more it seems to come together. It being my mental and physical health and how I relate to the world. So, if your gut is in a reactive state (through SIBO), it will stimulate your vagus nerve and relay the message to your brain that you're not safe. My anxiety, weight gain, cavities, the way I sometimes food would get stuck in my throat, food allergies are connected and, I think to a certain extent, maybe keep the trauma alive.

I've been taking a herbal protocol for a little while and my anxiety has been through the roof. i feel agitated, angry and have bad short term memory. Maybe I'm a lot in my body right now, and maybe before I was a lot in my head but will be interesting to see what happens if I can bring them into balance.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on July 04, 2021, 11:33:24 AM
Dollyvee, I'm glad you been finding things that help you feel supported and safe and well. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 05, 2021, 08:16:50 PM
Thank you rainy  :hug: it's really interesting to see how the physical symptoms influence how I feel.

Have been reading a book on vagus nerve exercises and it mentions how if your vagus nerve is inactive it can make you feel withdrawn and unwilling to socialize. This is very familiar to me and it's incredible how maybe that is related to something physical.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on July 14, 2021, 07:01:59 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I am sending you another hug, if that's ok  :hug:  It's good that you've been finding that book helpful and the mention of the vagus nerve.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 10, 2021, 07:49:45 AM
Thanks Hope. It's fascinating to see how connected it all is :hug:

About six weeks into my SIBO treatment and I've just finished a manic week at work - 10 days straight with the last day being 18hrs and dealing with being threatened with a lawyer from the collegue who keyed my car. It happened again on another job a few weeks ago after working with some of his friends. I made a big fuss and he got scared I think. The crazy thing is now I have to pay £6200 because I was sexually harassed at work. I'm going to try the union first but am cynical they will do anything after what they told me last time.

Anyway, I'm ignoring that for now. Physically, I feel great after working so much. I can't believe that after only one day of rest I was up, trying to get the flat in order. I think whatever I have been taking for the SIBO is helping and maybe I'm on the road to getting my body back. I was triggered at work by another instance. I've started developing feelings for an unavailable colleague after getting mixed signals, but I feel like it's easier to pinpoint that anxiety and see where the uneasiness I'm feeling is coming from instead of feeling a little uneasy all the time because my health isn't great? We'll see. This colleague is another matter and time to make some new choices and think carefully about my boundaries. I'm just so happy all this health stuff is starting to come together and gives me something positive to focus on.   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on August 10, 2021, 10:57:59 AM
Dolly, I hope your body continues to feel well and will think of you as you navigate your work.   :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 20, 2021, 11:13:47 AM
Thank you Rainy - it's appreciated.

I feel like I'm doing ok rn. There's a lot going on but I feel more centred in myself and my T has noted that I seem improved in how I responded to challenges at work over the last few months.

I felt like I had an impasse with IFS over the last little while, maybe something to what Owl is describing in her journal right now. That I felt like I couldn't connect to what parts were active and what they wanted. I also started researching Bon Tibetan Buddhism as I think this resonates with me and syncs in a way with what my parts were showing me. I've been learning about healing with the elements and have had some strong dreams/experiences, similar to when I started IFS. I'm feeling the relationships with my family a little differently and maybe at more of a distance, but also more vividly in some ways. I feel like this is supplementing the work i started with IFS and starting to look at big things in a different way - my attachments, lack of trust (in something bigger etc) and blocks in giving/compassion.

I can see that I have feelings of guilt with my mom and grandmother. I can also see that when I am feeling guilty because my mom blamed me for leaving after being treated the way I was by her and my stepfather, I am giving them power over me. This is a big one and I think it relates to how I interact with the world and the competitiveness (power over me) I feel coming from people in the world and the fear it brings up in me. This is a really challenging idea to deal with because if I give up the idea of protection of my family, I feel like I have nothing. I guess it's going to take some time to realize that it's not true or it's only a part of me that feels that way and thinks that I'm responsible for them. I'm trying to be with it and approach it in the meditations but it does feel overwhelming. Especially when I go out into world and it doesn't feel like a safe place. I'm trying not to think that it's me and to be with it, let it go. It's hard to unlearn when you love someone you want to help them, and that as a child you weren't responsible for them.

Also, is interesting that when working with the Fire element, the first thing that popped up was this idea of my mom that I had in IFS and that the Fire element has to do with attachment which governs our digestion haha.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 22, 2021, 08:20:27 AM
In my meditation the other morning, I had an image of my step father come up and it was like a part of me closed down, or dissociated that I didn't want to see it. This morning I made a comment about my stepfather and his behaviour going after my mom's money after she died and it "came to me" how not ok his behaviour was. It's like I have these blinders up shielding me from ppl who are behaving similar but are ironically still keeping me tied to that energy and what happened. In what world do you think it's ok to call an 8 year old fat and make them run?

When this stuff comes up in meditation sometimes I get a bit lost, like I don't know how to handle this energy and the fear kind of creeps up. What I like about the meditation, is that there is an outline for what to do when that fear happens. You try to cultivate the positive qualities and let the negative ones go. I've been listening to some podcasts as well and apparently when you have PTSD (which according to her is more of a result of the unpredictability of behaviour than how "bad" it was) you experience soul loss. These mediations are about bringing it back and your parts back. Maybe fear is a very strong component of that.

If anyone is interested these are what I'm looking at:
https://whyshamanismnow.com/2010/05/shamanism-and-ptsd-recovery/

This is kind of an overview of the practice but the book Healing with Form, Energy, and Light goes into more detail. Ligmincha Learning also has courses. I think these teachings sometimes need to be brought into a CPTSD perspective as I think there's another layer ie some of us are ppl pleasers who developed this coping strategy in response to abuse, so service comes naturally but it might not be touching on the deeper trauma and awareness of that trauma. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G6shv7emVk

dolly
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 22, 2021, 10:47:44 AM
Just reread my last post and felt like it was missing the "out of body" way of looking at my stepfather's behaviour I felt this morning. That it is not ok in any capacity. Where before, maybe I always felt like a part of me had to accept it - that I wasn't free?

I've found this this morning and sums up some of the things I have been feeling and fearing. That fear I feel when I don't have my grandmother or when I saw that she couldn't be everything to me, and how to define it. Interesting the similarities between my mom and love and the relationship to emptiness and love. That boundless space is called the mother and we can lose that connection and feel fear instead of love and possibility. That my mother will never love me in that way but I have the potential inside me to bring that love into my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0g05e8QIs

Am rambling a bit but I think there's a metaphor in there somewhere.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on October 22, 2021, 10:15:25 PM
Dolly, I appreciate you sharing these experiences.  I am learning more about energy and spirituality as there is healing to be done on those levels...and yet it is difficult to always wrap my mind around. 

This line really stood out to me because I do this too.

Quote from: dollyvee on October 22, 2021, 08:20:27 AM
It's like I have these blinders up shielding me from ppl who are behaving similar but are ironically still keeping me tied to that energy and what happened.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 23, 2021, 05:23:52 PM
Thanks Rainy  :hug:

I've been posting/lurking for about a year on this forum and looking back I'm really grateful to have this outlet to just put it all down even if it doesn't seem to make sense. I think I've learned a lot from everyone here. So thank you   :grouphug:

Day to day I've been feeling more settled. I've felt active in getting things done. I don't know how to explain it - the kind of dread/procrastination/worry about doing simple things has been loosening. The background noise of "things will never work out" seems to have been turned down. I'm trying to look at it when it comes up like at the gym the other day.

My personal view of the gym is it's a place where I can test myself and get in touch with my body. I don't really care what other ppl are doing, what they look like, if they can do more than me etc. That's their life/lane and I wish them well. However, I feel like that backfires and I get drawn into ppl's drama/need for attention - that they want to make things difficult for me because they need to feel better about themselves. I can see how this relates to my stepfather/mother and I'm trying to bring myself into the present when I'm in this situation and see it with new eyes. Sometimes I feel like ppl go out of their way to provoke other ppl, that it becomes a contest of will and strength and it gets to me. I guess I can only go so far, so fast and I'm not that person or in the same situation I was then.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 24, 2021, 08:17:08 AM
Felt p. emotional after my session with T yesterday. I felt like I was talking quite openly about my grandmother and not in a hesitant/anxious/blaming myself for saying these things kind of way. That she was someone who had two sides and wasn't all knowing. Was feeling the stress/part who had to do everything, to be the one who could handle it, take on all the issues, be responsible I guess, and could see how it might cause me to hesitate to do things. What if they wouldn't turn out, then I would fail and I wouldn't be this "perfect" person that she accepted. I think there were a lot of times I felt like this growing up, to feel this pressure. And if I didn't do those things? I wouldn't survive? Annihilation?

Still thinking about that talk on fear. I mean these are huge ideas - how much of our identity is wrapped up in ppl, relationships, things. This is what it means to be human. I can see too how little separation there was between my grandmother and I at times. That she needed her identity in me and I needed in her.

I listened to another podcast the other day on protection. This is a common feeling for me, that I am not protected in the world. It was interesting when they were talking about protecting children and that you can wish for protection for your children, but there comes a time when they need to do it for themselves and it's inappropriate for you to do it for them. This stuck out for me. My grandmother always told me that she would protect me, but I think I realized over time that it was more about her needing closeness and I still felt unprotected. That I wasn't seen. That living in the world according to her and denying myself was also not protection. This is a skill in me that had been malformed in a way. I've survived this far but on an old program of protection I think.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on October 25, 2021, 02:31:11 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I read what you wrote about your relationship with your grandmother and your thoughts and feelings about this.  Your session with your T covered so much, and I feel the emotion within what you wrote.  I wanted to send you a hug, if that's ok  :hug: 

Your thoughts about protection were particularly thought-provoking. 

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 26, 2021, 09:43:34 AM
Thanks Hope  :hug: It does feel like big stuff and I'm really thankful that I have a little more distance to look at it now and doesn't feel so present and urgent in me. Just being aware of of these things is really powerful. The idea of protection is always there, that I know I have to do it but wasn't always allowed or trusted to do it, or given the belief that it is something I could do myself.

Have been thinking about how I am in the world or the idea(s) I had of myself - how I am supposed to be, what I thought I had to be like and that a lot of it is/was for my family. I'm also realizing/starting to look at my relationships with other ppl and how my family shaped that. It came up in a dream the other night that I went out on a date with a guy and he wanted me to pay 11k to spend the night with him. It's like it costs me a lot to be with someone, and/or that other ppl want unreasonable things from me. My grandmother was in another part of my dream and I think it's probably related. There was a lot of talk of how you can't trust men, you can't trust other ppl, in the end there's only family when I was growing up. That what is it in me that pushes other ppl away?

On my walk yesterday, I thought about how she would be wondering what my grandfather was doing if he was out socializing for a little while. She would be angry and disturbed if he was gone for an hour or so. Was it like this with me on some level? That what I'm interpreting as being unsafe were her fears and maybe jealousy; the need to control things to keep me close.

I watched part of the Goop series on Sex & Intimacy last night. The family constellation practice was fascinating. To see how things are passed on but aren't necessarily a part of you. They feel so much like us but we've learned how to behave around them. I feel like it would be so helpful to see my family in one. The parts about dealing with the body, sexuality made me so uncomfortable. It just hit home the idea of pushing people away and that this discomfort/mistrust runs in my family. I definitely see issues of sexuality and intimacy in relationships with my mom and my grandmother.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 26, 2021, 12:07:00 PM
Ha - I say starting but I've been doing this for years. It does feel like it's on another level now though or in a different way. That maybe I can actually sit with some of this hurt emotionally and not be spun out by it.

Last night I went out for a walk but started out too late and ended up finishing in the dark. Sometimes this happens and I'm aware of the fear I have being alone at night in the dark. I'm in the countryside, in the fields at that time and there's no one usually out but it's there and I can most times face it and see it for what it is - just fear. It felt much more unmanageable tho last night, that it was weighing me down and I didn't feel present. The stars were amazing and there was a bright planet on the horizon I think.

I called my grandfather to check in and he was telling me about his nephew. It sounded like he was so happy and pleased with him - his job, his house, that he's doing so well. It brought up something in me and who I am/was around my family. That somehow the things I do with my life aren't good, or that they are never good enough. I told him before about the problems at work (dealing with a narcissistic boss and how I told him I didn't want to do the next job with him), and he was asking about work. I can hear, or it sounds to me, that he's worried about my working situation, which brought up a fear part in me. My family doesn't see or hear how I've taken care of myself so far.

I had a dream last night that two men broke into my house and were robbing me. When I looked up the interpretation it said: you feel that someone has stolen your success or taken credit for something you did, that you are being treated unfairly. I felt this a lot growing up that what I achieved was never really recognized.

Lots of journalling - just want to get it down. Think there's a lot of things going on right now. Not overwhelmed I think, just changing how I'm looking at things.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on October 26, 2021, 02:13:36 PM
Hi Dolly,  i now how terrifying nightmares are,  I'm so sorry you had to go through that.  I hope you have a great day today. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 27, 2021, 08:13:04 PM
Thanks for  that Larry, I appreciate it. It did keep me awake for a bit. I made a cup of peppermint and liquorice tea and the warmth/taste grounded me.

I think I'm stuck in my head right now - that the fear part I felt around my mom is coming up, but also other things like if I don't connect to people in this way, how do I do it? And I think that's when the overwhelming mom part is present. There's other stuff too like ppl aren't going to like me etc.

I'm writing this and I had a light bulb - I remember being being six-ish and being invited to a birthday party. I didn't want to go and my mom was questioning me about it, and I said because they other kids won't like me. Thinking about it now and it feels like it came from a really dark place.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 29, 2021, 09:49:36 AM
Work was a little overwhelming yesterday. There's a lot that's coming up right now about our workplace culture and how toxic it can be and I'm feeling that. Lots of bullying that's not called out and let happen; others have said that you can't be a nice person in this industry and get ahead. I see how it brings up old stuff in me.

I'm trying to be present and stand up to this stuff. Yesterday, it felt like I was the problem, which I haven't been feeling for a while to let it go and be professional. It's hard though when it feels like it gets to the core of how powerless I was growing up. That I'm locked in these stupid power dynamics with people and they have an influence at how my life is. I'd like to find a way to step outside that, but it feels like the only way is to validate their view of the world.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on October 29, 2021, 03:40:13 PM
I'm sorry your work place is so toxic ,  you shouldn't have to deal with that, 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on October 29, 2021, 07:11:18 PM
That sounds really difficult Dollyvee. I would not do well in a place like that. I hope you can wall off the toxicity a bit.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 31, 2021, 10:57:07 AM
Thanks Larry & Armee it's pretty outstanding that a lot of this behaviour is normalized and I end up back in familiar place of questioning, "is it me? am I the bad one?" The double-edged sword is that if you speak up about it as well you can be a target, or "difficult." I'm still wrestling with that, looking at my actions and trying to see that I have professional intentions and just want respect for my work, not the world. That I have a right to be there, doing that.

Feeling p. squirrelly after meditation this morning. Lots of unfocused stuff coming up - distraction maybe from what I'm feeling? Meditation had to do with the wind element and it's place is in the body is the lungs. It also has to do with change and transformation. It came to me that my dad also had asthma growing up and that maybe this feeling of no one will like me might also come from him. I haven't thought much about his side of the family constellation..

TW ~
My  mom told me once (if I can believe it) that my grandmother took an experimental medication in the 50s to abort my father's pregnancy, but it didn't work and instead my dad was born with a hole in his heart. I guess it's v. fitting that you have a place missing in your heart where there should be love and instead there is the idea that you were not wanted. My dad was the third and final child in that marriage which no one ever talked about because I think it was so bad. He even changed his name to his stepfather's name. My uncle was born after him in the new marriage and was definitely the baby of the family. My grandmother was an alcoholic and I remember fights at Christmas dinner. I think she could really lay into people.
***

There was/is a lot of trauma on that side of the family and was even before what they knew what it was. I do think my dad really tried with me but I can see that he was wrestling with something else. I think maybe wanted to feel good but didn't know what to do. It also came back to me how he married someone so much like his mother when he married my mom. No matter what happened, I think I get a lot of my strength and groundedness to cope with these things from him and my aunt. By starting to deal with his stuff, he showed me a reality check of "this has what's happened in our family and there are things we can do."

I went out for my walk again the other evening at sunset and saw two other couples walking in the dark. I'm still taking it in (for whatever reason) that I'm not crazy for being out there and doing that; that I don't need "approval" to be safe. Last night the walk was beautiful to see the stars in a purple like sky, and over a far hill this bright yellow light from what I guess was the glow of the moon.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on October 31, 2021, 09:16:49 PM
sounds like a nice walk ! 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 01, 2021, 09:26:02 AM
Thanks Larry it is...it's like a little reset to be out and back in nature. I feel like how a dog must feel when told they're going for a walk  :hug:

So, I learned that there's a place on the forum where you can go and "check out" if you're not going to be around. I've been thinking about this and all the stuff that's been coming up around it - letting ppl know I'm not going to be around, but why would they care? And then part of me feels like I'm being dramatic, just doing it for attention in both cases (I think these are projections tho)...and then it hit me how much of my life I've felt like that around my family. The actual feeling that they don't really care about me.

These things are just coming up and I'm noticing them.

Meditation today was interesting - it's like things are happening in the background and I don't know what/can't place them. So much movement and soreness in my shoulders and base of my neck. I also had the feeling of awkward singing during the dedication. It's like my body wanted to do it one way that felt good and happy, and somehow I changed it (?) and it came out a bit awkward and unintended. I feel like I have a part that does this - that when I can do something or when I'm being watched, I will sabotage it almost. Thoughts about humiliation and my family have been been surfacing here and there over the past week too and maybe it's all related but haven't found a "connection" inside.

Reading about Dzogchen teachings on problems last night and it says that in life you will never not have problems but it's how you see them that becomes important  and the awareness behind those problems:

"when a  thought feeling or sensation arises it is left as it is. It does not cause attraction. And if there is a reaction, it is not further engaged"

How much is being engaged with the responses to trauma that is not happening anymore, that is a reaction (an old thought) to what is happening now or trying to do what I think is expected of me...and if it is possible to not do that - to not have a reaction - what would that even look like? Who would I be then, but maybe that's not the point.

Rambling now time to listen to the storms and think about going to the gym.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 01, 2021, 12:45:54 PM
Hi Dolly,  sounds like you are learning a lot from reading and meditation.  something i would like to try.  I hope you have a great day !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 01, 2021, 07:00:12 PM
Dolly, thank you for sharing about your learnings.  I appreciate all that you are noticing and look forward to hearing what else you notice.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 03, 2021, 11:11:07 AM
Thanks Larry - it's been very helpful at different times in my life. Right now I'm doing some Tibetan Bon and Dzogchen meditation after doing some research about some things that my parts showed me in an IFS that I didn't understand. It's like a reset, I can go back to ground zero no matter what is happening or has happened.

Thanks Rainy - I appreciate you saying that. Sometimes it feels like I'm rambling on  about these abstract ideas and no one is really interested. I think though that I'm projecting from things growing up and it's helpful to say that and be seen  :hug:

Work was awful yesterday. I feel like my shoulders and upper body are one giant knot and I am hunched over. I don't even want to write about it yet and think I need to unpack it. Yet I also worked with some very nice and understanding creative ppl for the first time. Am I being to hard on myself to wonder why I'm getting mired in the bad and can't see the possibilities of connecting with people who might be open.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 03, 2021, 12:34:50 PM
Hi Dolly,  hope you are having a great day !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: owl25 on November 03, 2021, 10:51:24 PM
dollyvee, that sounds quite painful. My body tenses up all the time and it does get sore. I hope maybe you'll be able to do something to relax your muscles. Maybe some gentleness towards yourself and your body can help. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 04, 2021, 09:04:00 AM
Thanks Larry  :hug:

Thanks Owl  :hug: I think it might be digestive related as well. It's been getting worse over the past week. I do have somatic reactions when I do these mediations much like the ones I have in EMDR when processing memories. So, am just keeping an open mind about what might be going on.

Maybe a TW ~

So I had an incident at work with someone damaging my property. It's happened before and these are the kind of people I wprk with. They are mostly guys and they will all come to each other's defense. So, usually I am the odd person out. So, I've been checking if this group will be on contracts before accepting the offer. I have raised concerns for this with the employer before and they threatened to sue me. So, I'm in a position where it's either I'm bullied when working with these people and not being able to say anything, or not taking the job and not saying anything while also losing out on the pay. I took a job this week and didn't realize there was someone from that group on it. I was stressed out as they were on the last job where my car was damaged. I'm happy that I'm standing up for myself but I also feel vulnerable and out there as I don't think many people are in my position and get what's going on.

End Poss TW~

I was listening to a talk about "When Things Change: Letting Go of Grasping" and he talked a lot about identity and holding onto an idea of ourselves. I thought about work and how difficult it is and also about how it is an identity for me. It's one that I've worked very hard to get to, to be in the position that I am and doing this job. What also came up was the idea of what pushed me to maybe hold onto this identity, or the push from my family and how I felt the need to "survive." If I didn't have this job, what would I be doing? Would I be ok? It was like the fear from my grandfather the other night on the phone about work. That it didn't matter to him how my boss was treating me, just that it was about work and money. I need to separate from this feeling more, and put more space between me and it.

I'm also noticing that it's like a heaviness this feeling, and that maybe some part of me believes that I have to take it on, just like I tried to take on a lot of my family burdens as a little girl. Also, just sort of feeling out of it, like I have to fight through this stuff to connect and be positive. But maybe trying to be positive is an old habit - that I thought there must be love, my family must love me; if only I was "X" it would be different. I think I will try to let the bad stuff come up and not hold onto it.

Had a lovely little zoom class last night on giving offerings. It felt like very good energy around the teacher and the other students and I was happy to be a part of it.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 04, 2021, 12:17:25 PM
I'm so sorry dolly,  work should not be like that.  i'm not really good at offering any helpful advice.  i don't really know what to say. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 04, 2021, 01:06:42 PM
Thanks for checking in Larry, I don't think many people know what to say about it. There are people that aren't like that, it's just a matter of trying to connect to those ones that aren't I guess.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 04, 2021, 01:15:40 PM
sending you some sunshine to brighten your day !   :sunny:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 04, 2021, 02:07:43 PM
Hey Dollyvee. I just want to say that work can be an identity and that's ok. Mine was for me I'm not sure how I'll handle not having it. But also I want to say that there are good work environments out there and I wish that you are able to find a fulfilling job that treats you well instead of bullying.

I don't know where you are but right now it is an employee's market where  I am....lots of openings.

Until then I'm wishing you luck with the GI stuff. It sucks.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 05, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
Thanks Larry - the sunshine is great & sending you some too  :sunny:

Thanks Armee - I work on contracts, so there are different situations with different people quite often, but also sometimes similar mentalities among departments. It's an idea I struggle with - to "give up" and try something new which is probably related to a young part of me that had to stand up to people like that and would rather "fight" them and let them "win." Maybe it's not the most healthy thing and something I' working on. It's also interesting that it's not other peoples' experience at work. Fingers crossed for the gut stuff. I'm going back on the anti-microbials when I get these test results back; when I remember to fast to take the test.
***
I'm realizing it's somewhat hard to be back on this board and responding to ppl. I was thinking about enmeshment last week and how enmeshed I was with my mother, which I don't think I was aware of before. She was aloof and unavailable but she needed me around. We would go on trips together and spend time at the seaside or shopping, and I guess it gave the illusion of closeness but that she was never really there. I think about how quickly she had my brother after I left and he became the "golden child." That she needs someone there.

I'm thinking about the part of her that was in my IFS, it caused me fear and was like I couldn't separate; that it had to be walled off. She didn't have emotional regulation and I would take in that anger being enmeshed. I feel like when people tell me things, there is no filter and I immediately take them on. It's as if there's no space for me. It's something that happens at a very basic level too, so that I'm not really conscious of it. I noticed before that I was shutting down with my T when discussing IFS. It was like she was offering suggestions and I couldn't take it in; almost like a defensiveness. I realized that I need to keep everything out in order to have space for myself because I didn't have any growing up; that I do it to know what I think/feel about something. It doesn't make it easy to be open around other ppl.

I listened to a podcast on protection that talked about discernment and how you filter the messages that come to you. That my filtering system is wrapped up in enmeshment and my family. I was told that something was bad/scary; that I couldn't be angry instead of being allowed to feel what it was to me. I guess all families do this to some extent but it's different with trauma. I guess I'd like to focus on not having that filtering system be so active or hyperaroused as it was around my mom and gm. I think that filtering system is a very malleable thing.

***
I dreamt last night that I was being held back by some people from going forward. I think these were just kids or people that didn't really know what they were doing. I got to this bridge and was walking a bicycle across, only it was a suspension bridge like you see in the movies. Very Indiana Jones where slots were missing and the bike tire got stuck a few times in big holes. Close to the end, it was like all the slots were gone and felt like it was seperating on each foot like in caartoons. I held on and saw the water below. My hands were really clammy and I was scared I would slip. I think there were other people that seemed ok in crossing and didn't seem phased. I think they were German which makes me laugh.

Crossing bridges mean a critical junction in life or an important decision one that will prove to be filled with prosperity; also a transitional stage where you will be moving to a new way of life; a run down bridge indicates you should not contemplate any major changes in life at this time. If the bridge is over water, it suggests the transition will be an emotional one. Interesting.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 05, 2021, 07:27:58 PM
Dolly, I appreciated reading your post.  Thank you for sharing about the protection system - I needed to learn about that today.  I hope that you find ways to feel comfort and ease. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 06, 2021, 07:12:37 PM
Thanks Rainy  :hug: that's good to hear. If you want to listen to the whole thing, this is it below. I pick and choose certain aspects which resonate with me, but it might not be for everyone.
https://whyshamanismnow.com/2017/04/survival-skills-for-sensitives-with-mary-shutan/

It struck me this morning, my meeting with the group to go through the offerings, and what my "normal"/old reaction would have been - maybe taking something personally or feeling I didn't measure up in some way and how I didn't feel like that after this meeting. It all felt positive and sincere. Like I had some space for myself and it was met and accepted. That feels different. We're going to keep in touch about our experience with the practice and that sounds nice.

Speaking with T today about feeling out of it. We also talked about boundaries and how I feel that I take things in. Eventually she's reminded me that I survived through it and I have resources. I could feel the panic rising up in my body and really had to concentrate to stay in present time.I feel ok now but it's still incredible how powerful these feelings are in my body.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 07, 2021, 03:16:38 AM
Dolly, thank you for the resource.  I enjoy learning from many perspectives and am often amazed at how similar messaging shows up again and again from different angles. 

I appreciate what you wrote about your experience of being in a group.  I am in this place too, seeing how I would like to function differently in groups.  Thank you for sharing your experience as it will help me in the future. 

I wish you well as you navigate the feelings coming up in your body. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 07, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
Thanks Rainy  :hug: I'm glad you can get something from it. Someone suggested a book on HSPs to me and I haven't read it yet, but HSP sounds interesting. It's such a new thing. Growing up in a NPD household, so much of my behaviour was formed in a traumatic way, but also in such an engrained and automatic way that I don't even realize sometimes that I'm doing it around other people. I guess that's all of us though. I'm glad this forum gives us a chance to relate about that stuff.

:witch:
Thinking about where I'm "coming from," what my issues are and what my urges are. That I think this feeling is from a hidden or automatic place that I learned, a place where I take everything in and give too much. It's like I take on all the garbage into me? I felt it last night in my solar plexus. I woke up at 3:30am and couldn't sleep. I tried to go into Self and see what part was active and it was a feeling in my solar plexus, like a knot of taking everything in (to this place of pain) and giving back at but at my expense? I think it's a very vulnerable place to be showing people and not everyone has earned the right to be there.

When relating to people, there's were definitely certain filters that didn't exist for me growing up. I had almost an automatic trust because I would think that some people know better than me, they seem more together or whatever, but I think that's something I was taught. I don't  know what's triggering me to go back in this space. That I can't trust my own feelings because there is fear or because the world is a scary place when I was very young and I didn't know? I know those filters and automatic trust are not correct because I have a pattern of giving too much and then being hurt - that what I was seeing wasn't correct. Or to care about what other people think without really processing who they are to me, or people who I haven't developed a trust with.

Sometimes instagram shows me some interesting posts related to CPTSD even though I think instagram is the devil. I guess it knows my algorithm. The post had to do with HSPs and narcissists and how HSPs can make themselves "narcissist proof" and be able to keep our empathy/openesss. One was looking at setting boundaries and the other was to deal with people pleasing behaviours by switching to authenticity . These are definitely two big ones for me. I would like to keep my empathy and also be able to set new filters. Sometimes I feel like my authentic is a little too real for a lot of people though, but I guess it's real for me and that's what matters. I think I need to think about this a bit. I think working on this would help separate the belief that not everyone is a narcissist or a danger.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 07, 2021, 02:28:58 PM
I relate to so much of what you wrote Dollyvee. About taking so much of other people on, of the physical consequences,  of overtrusting others because they must know better than me and undertrusting myself.

I especially like what you shared about being authentic. I feel that's going to be important to me from this point on in my life and yet I have no idea how to trust myself to be authentic without being too much. I guess it would be normal to misjudge sometimes.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 08, 2021, 10:47:48 AM
Thanks Armee - I can relate to that. How do we be authentic when we were never allowed to be ourselves growing up and when acting from an authentic place could have had (probably did have) dangerous consequences? This says that we learn to be "nice" by dismissing our own feelings and putting other first as a way to be worthy of their love and carry these beliefs into our adult relationships. I think it's such a deep part.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CVK_GTSpjs5/?utm_medium=share_sheet

Meditation:

I had a memory come to me yesterday about staying in bed, watching TV with my grandmother. I think it felt safe and we spent a lot of time there together. I asked those parts back in meditation this morning and there seemed to be a block in head. I then asked for anything else to come back and it was like a rush of energy into me - I felt great but it scared me. I think I was worried about controlling it. I finished and noticed it was like a part reverted to negative thinking, that something had shifted. I asked to separate and a part showed up behind me. It seemed very angry and was scowling at me. Later something came up around bullying at work. Previously this week I had a memory/feeling around bullying and my stepfather in a meditation. I think maybe this was the part that had to protect me from his/other ppl's negativity at that age.

Reading Second Sight by Judith Orloff yesterday and she mentions someone telling her that her neck tension was her body waking up; that she remembered something important about herself and got frightened. So when you shut down your body, it tightens and reacts to the symptoms; fighting what comes up only creates tensions.

I like this book, no matter what my realtionship to the content is. It reminds me of those parts of us that we had to give up or hide because of judgement from other people and how important those parts are to us. It also reminds me the weight of family and how it can cause us to doubt things about ourselves and the things that make us unique in the world.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 08, 2021, 11:49:43 AM
Just thinking about what I wrote to Armee - that I guess part of authenticity is also trusting ourselves and what we're feeling. Over time by giving ourselves a chance, I think we build a better discernment and what feels "right" for us. But also I think a big part is keeping what our expectations are for a relationship real and aware of where they're coming from in us
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 08, 2021, 12:43:31 PM
I'm glad you posted that.  i feel like i learn so much from other posts,  things i would have never thought of.
thinking of you today,  hope it is a great day !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on November 08, 2021, 07:12:05 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Just sending you a hug  :hug: 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 09, 2021, 10:30:50 AM
Thanks Larry - that is great to hear  :hug: I did have a pretty ok day!

Thanks Hope  :hug:

Had a dream last night that I was in an building with a team that was ripping up the flooring. Someone on the team seemed distressed about it. When I looked it up today, flooring apparently means the link between our consciousness and subconsciousness.

I thought about that part yesterday that came up in meditation and can understand why she wouldn't want me to move forward. I'm going to try to get to know her a bit better and see what she has to say.

Reading the Judith Orloff book has put my relationship between my grandmother and I in a bit more perspective I think, and maybe my feelings with someone who loved me very "strongly." I don't think there was the resolution that the author had in the book, of being recognized, but I think it might put the tenuousness in a little more perspective and with a little more compassion without being swallowed up. I'm still working on this.

Last night while I remembered that part of me that always thought things would work out and be ok. This was a very strong , happy part (?) that I feel like has become quiet or having to contend with my family's view of "you don't know how the world works." I can recognize how reluctant I am to trust that part of me (and then I think would feel/have to be in the world totally on my own but then maybe that part is protecting me?).
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 09, 2021, 10:44:05 AM
***
maybe in relation to the last bit - have also noticed feeling a bit more affected by peoples' energy out in public. Like I don't know what to do with myself (if things are going to work out) and seem to pick up "competition(?)" vibes from people; that I will have to prove myself and can't just be, or that people will want to push me around. Maybe it's related to the part that came up in meditation as well
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 09, 2021, 02:12:06 PM
Dolly, I appreciate you sharing about your experiences.  You are noticing a lot. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 09, 2021, 10:13:28 PM
When I start to feel safe and comfortable like you write about remembering being safe in bed with your grandma...I tend to get a really strong backlash to remind me to be alert.

Guess these silly bodies are just trying to keep us safe
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 10, 2021, 11:18:19 AM
Armee - thanks for sharing. Bizarrely my relationship with my gm was also a big sense of comfort and love for me (as well as undermining my self) but I can relate to that feeling where something good meant something bad was likely to happen. I've experienced dissociation before getting close to people who I "felt" were safe.

Thanks rainy, I appreciate you seeing that

:witch:
I just wanted to say as well that I feel really grateful to be able to be here and look at the things I am, and to be able to work on it. Now, onto pride  :)) kidding but it's also true. When reading the JO book last night, she talked about an older patient that came in who was from a generation that didn't believe in psychotherapy and who, if she ever had a problem, would work it out on her own; that this was a matter of pride, not giving into weakness.

This passage stood out for me and reminded me of my family at first, both my grandfather (super hard worker) and my grandmother, who once told me that she saw a therapist but in the end we work these things out on our own. It also came to me that I can see a lot of this in myself and that the part who showed up in the mediation also holds the attitude of not being able to show any weakness. I see this as the reaction to my stepfather and how he treated me, that I couldn't show any feelings.

Poss tw~

My stepfather would call me a "suck" if I wanted to be close to my mom. That I couldn't show that 7/8 year old self of "wanting my mommy;" basically wanting comfort and love that comes from a parent

End poss tw~

This is a very strong, prideful part to not show those things, which I never realized. I guess pride does that - hides your "weaknesses" from you. That I couldn't see it as pride because it's something protecting me? But here comes the kicker, how can I see it as a weakness in the first place when it did so much to help me and keep me "safe"? I guess to be in the present and accept that it's an old program running. I also realized that this came during a meditation where I was working with the air element. The emotions air governs are pride and peacefulness. It makes sense to me now that the discomfort that was coming up in my neck and shoulders that I couldn't quite place stemmed from pride.

Also, I'm willing to dox my address as I'm pretty sure I'm living next to one someone here's realtive  :)) My neighbour brings up things in me about being watched. Yesterday after I had the radio on at a low volume (I even checked with a db meter that it's the same volume as an indoor conversation)  she started putting the toilet seat up and down, which makes a loud clunk and wakes me up, between 12am and 1:30am (like three or four times). Maybe it's a bout of bad food poisoning but I have a feeling it's a means of retaliation. Feel way out there even saying it.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 10, 2021, 11:29:06 AM
Dolly, I appreciate your reflection about pride and perhaps "hiding" what we might really need or be experiencing for survival.  It is giving me a lot to think about.  Thank you for your reflections.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 10, 2021, 11:45:12 AM
Thanks rainy - I'm glad it resonated with you. It's great that we can be here, sharing with other people and have them connect to it. It's a little bit of comfort in knowing that it's not us and not just us
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 11, 2021, 02:19:04 AM
 :wave:
Hi Dolly,  just wanted to let you know i am thinking about you. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on November 12, 2021, 06:17:03 PM
 :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 13, 2021, 10:56:57 AM
Thank you for checking in Larry  :heythere: it means a lot to me that there is a cptsd squad to chat about this stuff with.

Thank you Snowdrop  :hug: welcome back  :cheer: I hope you're feeling better

I had written a post yesterday and didn't publish it...it felt really erratic and that maybe I was oversharing. I think I felt a bit self-conscious that it seemed like an extreme reaction and that I was following every thought that came in my head, but I think this stuff has been around for a while. I think part of the cptsd process is "managing myself" and thinking about what I felt it "should be like" rather than what it is, who I am sometimes. I give a little hug to the parts who were told they were wrong for so long.

During mediation this morning, I think parts were scared. I tried to connect to the scowling part I met before and I think she was there but her eyes were cloudy, like she had cataracts. I tried to speak with her and show her I was there and if she wanted to discuss anything with me. After the meditation, I felt like I could "see" in more detail things at the house around that time. I remembered what it felt like to sit on the couch, details of my room, the carpet in the room downstairs, but also how I felt around my mom, how I was trying to connect to her and she was awful to me. It makes sense that that part of me would shut down and not want to see it, that I had to protect myself against that behaviour. Seeing how the rest of my family didn't say anything to her about it, or acknowledge that there was something going on with me, was pretty upsetting too. I can see a parallel with work now too.

:cloud9:

I'm going to go to the gym, go for my walk and try to relax. I've been listening to the radio finding more music that I'm into. I think I;m underestimating how maybe intense this stuff is and will take it slow. I think there's a lot coming up right now.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 13, 2021, 12:31:44 PM
Dolly, I appreciate your update.  It is tough when so much is coming up.  I hope you find things that bring some ease. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 13, 2021, 01:34:48 PM
Thank you rainy  :hug:

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 13, 2021, 01:43:22 PM
HI Dolly,  going to the gym sounds nice,  i am going to go later today.    I will be thinking of you ! hope you have a great day !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 14, 2021, 08:37:51 AM
Thanks Larry - I only managed the walk. Hope you enjoyed it though! I know it does make me feel better

This is what I'd written before but this stuff is hard to talk about for various reasons ie that my reaction was so intense  and seemed way off base and that I'm concerned what peoples' reactions would be. Maybe it has something to do with a previous therapist telling me I might have a tiny bit of histrionic or borderline. I feel like there's a history of people telling me what is wrong etc with me that doesn't seemed to fit or account for all my "inner world." The other thing, which I originally left out, was that I had a dream a few nights before the job where I was speaking to Gwyneth Paltrow about this guy she was having problems with who did "x" profession and I told her that I also had a negative experience with him. I didn't think anything about it until this guy was at work, who does "x" profession, and our experience before was maybe a little negative (at least for my fears) too. I didn't remember the dream or place it until after I felt so emotional at work. Dreams are a big part of my life and I don't really like sharing it because (from experience) most people think it's odd or strange, or don't really know what to do with it. Or they make it out to be something special when anyone has access to this, it's just a matter of peeling back the layers. I think it kind of highlights and shows me what is going on and that I'm on the "right" path.

I was at work with someone that I'd had "vibes" with before, someone who seemed romantically interested and I felt attracted to this person as well. Going back to what happened when I watched the Goop documentary, it's like a part shuts down these feelings related to sex. It happened in university, I never wanted to date around and became overly serious right away, concerned with people just wanting to have sex with me and leave. I understand how this trauma could related to my mom, but I also feel like it's out of context or seems too extreme? I feel like this idea should be out of place now as well a bit more, that I know about dating, have better boundaries and can say what feels comfortable and what doesn't, and that I feel like there's ok people out there, but it's a really strong reaction. Maybe I feel like I can't have space being around someone, that no matter what I say, I'll be taken over?
*funnily enough, I don't think I placed the dream before writing about the Goop documentary. So, maybe it is more related to old stuff than what this person is like.

I in no way want to be that "crazy jealous girl," and intellectually I think I have self awareness enough to know what's appropriate behaviour, but it gets lost emotionally. I don't know what is going on, so I stay separate which brings up a lot of sadness and tears. It really feels like it should have no basis in my life or what I've known, I don't know how to describe it. I can see this in my m and gm and maybe it's a legacy burden. I'd seen both my mom and gm "act up" around people leaving, my mother with her father and me, and I came across letters my grandmother had written to my grandfather about her leaving him when she got of a certain age (he never did and was just as jealous of my gm cheating on him which she never did - my family  :whistling:)

Anyways, there were tears on the drive home last night. Maybe I'm avoiding a person that wouldn't be good for me, or maybe who would be? This is where my discernment gets a little lost. I feel out of place for what an extreme reaction it is to someone that I've only worked with and connected with a few times. (I know all the adages as well about work and dating - welcome to the wonderful  boundaryless work environment I have; it's a minefield. I guess it's something that I could be fixing as well, or is maybe what's activating this?). I think it just takes time to sort through all the information coming in. I have been feeling like this with dating as well, that I've been speaking to people recently and then it feels like it gets too much emotionally, so I bow out. It's not great.

Tw~

So I woke up with a voice in my head this morning that said people paid to have sex with me by the twos while my sister watched. I don't have a sister and there's no memory of any csa that I can recall. I think my mom had an experience (maybe my grandmother?) and maybe I'm carrying this? My mom was also an only child and I think it was only one person. I would pass this off as an odd dream (maybe fears surfacing) but what sticks with me is that someone else mentioned csa to me years ago when I had my cards read once and recommended The Courage to Heal, which I did read and tried to analyze why would she have that impression? I could've went back and asked her but I didn't. I also had a dream 20 years ago (when I was in university and should have been in my "experimental phase" that had to do with two men, sex, and what felt like a "dark vibe." I don't think this was just some subconscious fantasy surfacing? Is it something more general like people taking something from me if I'm with them which has come up recently? I thought it was interesting following the experience yesterday and is something that I think has been around for years but have never had an answer for. I don't even know how to write this stuff and I know there is a lot of people it affects in a much more profound way.


Tw end ~

This feels like an erratic post. I don't know if I'm catastrophizing or working out some anxiety but this reaction/feeling has been around a long time. So far I've "managed" it but I hope it's time to integrate it or let it go.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 16, 2021, 07:58:30 PM
So I'm rereading this post and can see that maybe it's so long is because I'm trying to explain everything to hide that it feels really vulnerable to put something out there that's a part of me. I think this is the part that had to hide those things around my sf at that time. It's hard to talk about this stuff but I'm realizing that it is a big part of me.

Reading more about people who are sensitive/empathetic and take on others' emotions and I think it sounds fitting for what happens with around me.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 16, 2021, 10:19:14 PM
Dolly, I appreciate your vulnerability and what you offered here. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 18, 2021, 06:33:13 PM
 :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 19, 2021, 12:18:46 PM
Thanks rainy & Larry  :grouphug:

Working a lot the past week, last two days have been challenging. Working with someone who recognizes that I get "bullied" and tries to push my buttons. Yet people think this person is nice, lovely. I'm trying to step back and be professional and not engage; just do my job.

One thing that stuck out in the Judith Orloff book was when she talked about getting "hooked" by certain things. This is the law of attraction that I always sort of felt was there but didn't know how to look at it without seeing myself as a victim or wrapped up in the pain, or setting up a "fight" dynamic which is so familiar and how I protected myself when I was younger. I can see it now that I look to other people to step in and intervene. (By all means yes they should, there should be a framework in place to protect people at work and basic rights around gender, visibility etc.) But how do you get people to intervene when they don't see a problem - I can go into statistics and show there is a problem but rant aside.

Long quote but I think it's great:
"(talking about empathy)...the qualities I absorbed from other people were the ones I wasn't clear about in myself. Take anger for instance, which sometimes creeps up unnoticed, or may simmer just below the surface. I remain oblivious for too long, my psychic empathy kicks in full force. Then I not only sense other peoples' anger more keenly, but I also attract it. Everyone around me is now angry about something, and the negativity registers in me. But once I resolved to look at the source of my anger, the "hook" is gone.

I wonder if what the "bullies" at work are picking up is my anxiety over control and being boxed in and therefore they try to do that. Or if I haven't resolved feeling good about myself/ vulnerable and they go straight for that. Maybe it's my need to "win" which wan't actually winning but surviving at that age. I don't want to give these people my time or energy.  It's not worth it. I'm just not sure yet how to go about this. I did feel better "stronger" for acknowledging my vulnerable part; that theit behaviour was distanced from it and that I could protect it in a way. It's like there's a constant testing of my boundaries tho and my resolve gets weakened. I guess it's helpful to see that's what they're doing - testing boundaries and now I have some  :cheer:

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 19, 2021, 12:31:05 PM
What's interesting or coming up from this is how much I felt alone during those times growing up when things like this would happen. I guess it's also isolation. This thought popped into my head after the past couple days and there's an awareness of past behaviour of wanting to isolate and feel "bad" about myself, but there's more distance to this now I think. More space to sort out what's going on and not take on everyone's reactions to me.

But there's also some reaction to it, to be upset with people who I feel treated me badly or be hyper aware of their reactions to me and not feel safe.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 19, 2021, 01:45:12 PM
Ah bingo: *from Judith Orloff's Empath Survival Guide

(I took a screenshot because I was to lazy to type it out  ;D but here it is) emphasis mine:

"Childhood neglect or abuse can also affect sensitivity levels for adults. A portion of empaths I've treated have experienced early trauma such as emotional or physical abuse, or were raised by alcoholic, depressed, or narcissistic parents. This could potentially wear down the usual healthy defences that a child with nurturing parents develops. As a result of their upbringing, the children typically don't feel "seen" by their families, and they feel invisible in the greater world that doesn't value sensitivities. In all cases, however, empaths haven't learned to defend against stress in the same way others have. "
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 20, 2021, 12:10:25 AM
Dolly, I appreciate your observations and how you are finding application of the things you are learning.  I wish you the best as you navigate this work situation. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 20, 2021, 09:37:42 AM
Thank you rainy - I hope you're feeling better too.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 21, 2021, 10:49:25 AM
My journal is kind of like a sketchbook where I work out ideas about what's going on. So, bear with me if I ramble.

Spoke with T yesterday about sensitive/empath stuff which she didn't seem too on board with - maybe cautious. I can see where she's coming from as it does seem a bit general. I will explain things further but it's a block for me to talk about this stuff without feeling like people will explain it away. I've been on the other side, trying to explain it away and thinking it's coincidence. A lot of my life I wanted to just fit in and have a normal life, or questioning what was wrong with me that I wasn't normal. So, if anything came up outside of that, I would push it down. I also don't want to just make this idea fit. I'll test it out a bit.

Had a lightbulb moment reading the Empath's Survival Guide when she was discussing relationship empaths and commitment, and how subconsciously a lot of RE choose unavailable people so that they don't have to deal with the intensity of intimacy and feeling a lot of their partner's emotions/stresses (and trying to sort them out). All I choose are unavailable people. At the bottom of it, there's a feeling of wanting freedom for myself and a relationship that doesn't encroach on my emotional life. I remember telling a friend while I was dating my ex-boyfriend that it feels like it's going to engulf me (or something like that). Her reaction was that she never felt like that. I thought it must be me - was it commitment issues or something messed up from my family? What if the reaction to the guy at work (and the SA dream afterwards) was an expression  of this? My fears of being swallowed up and having the worst happen in a relationship because it feels like annihilation when someone is too close? Maybe because I've never been able to express my needs of what's actually going on inside? This along with the feeling that I needed to be in a relationship, that it's the normal thing that people do.

If this is it or not, I think not knowing my needs has been an issue. Not having a connection to what's going on inside me that has been suppressed for so long because I had to give it up to other people like my mom and gm to make them happy. I can see how this would bring up such intense reactions in me. Can also maybe see around the fear of leaving as well as I depended on them for survival?

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 21, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on November 21, 2021, 10:49:25 AM

If this is it or not, I think not knowing my needs has been an issue. Not having a connection to what's going on inside me that has been suppressed for so long because I had to give it up to other people like my mom and gm to make them happy. I can see how this would bring up such intense reactions in me. Can also maybe see around the fear of leaving as well as I depended on them for survival?

This seems like the really important part, Dollyvee. I know for me I like to try to find a label that will explain it all but that's less important than identifying the problematic symptoms and working on them. I bet you are an empath, and if using that as a way to label your reactions helps you understand yourself then that seems valuable. And at least it's a positive label instead of a negative one.  :applause:

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 22, 2021, 12:32:10 PM
Thank you Armee - I think for the kids in NPD families there's an inherent aversion to any kind of labels because they set us apart. Who am I to say this about myself?

Thinking about reaction to guy at work and dream etc. It could be that it was a warning or something coming up that the situation wouldn't be good for me, but maybe now I'm realizing why I choose those types of relationships and I can sit with it a bit. It's not something *wrong* with me for not pursuing this person, my picking system is not faulty. It doesn't say anything about me that I'm not attuned to someone who's "good on paper." I can see in the past where I would have gone with it - that it has something to do with my family, that I'm not this perfect person from this perfect family etc and that's why someone doesn't want to be with me etc.

I'm not sure about the line between warning and that intense feeling (my fears I guess). I've been on a date (well one where I specifically noticed it) where I felt like I was dissociating when opening up with someone or getting to know them. I guess it's about going slow and knowing your limits. I felt more conscious of my limits with this guy at work and that I could see what might be an issue. I guess I need to heed those and not think there's anything *wrong* with doing so. There's a lot around what I think people will want/don't want. Maybe this has been formed over years by experience but maybe also fears
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 22, 2021, 01:23:32 PM
Dolly, what you share about limits versus fears resonates with me.  I have been exploring a similar wondering my own experience too.  I appreciate the questions and noticings you offer up. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 22, 2021, 02:05:50 PM
Thanks rainy  :hug: I feel like I'm noticing a lot right of fear around putting myself out "there." For years, I felt like I didn't have a "self;" that I didn't know what I felt/wanted and that I was somehow empty. Maybe it's about uncovering what is there under the fear that's there from growing up - that I actually do have a self, it was just disregarded for so long. I know I'm sensitive to rejection too and can see how this would tie in. I would hide myself my family because they would reject it. I think knowing/establishing boundaries are helping with this.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 22, 2021, 03:27:09 PM
I too am struggling with trying to figure out who I am. It used to be "kind" and "giving" but those are symptoms, not me. Good luck finding yourself!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 23, 2021, 01:40:04 AM
 :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 23, 2021, 11:31:47 AM
Thank you Armee & Larry  :grouphug:

Listening to the talks by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, he talks about being "nice" and how it's overrated. That we want to be "nice" but it's not really honoring ourselves, or it's not a true expression of what's actually going on inside. I related to that a lot. Just because we don't express things doesn't mean they're not there.

Listening to the podcast on PTSD and how it's not a mental illness, but a result of being in a "sustained life-threatening situation," and this involves soul loss. Something which stuck out for me was " believe the child, listen to the child and take appropriate steps to handle the situation without blaming or shaming the child." I feel like there's a part of me that has to have other people "believe" me; that it's important that other people believe me.

She also mentions that "the energy you need to create attachment is lost to you because it's in the soul part."  Mind blown. So maybe this is why the intense feeling of abandonment (?) comes up, that that part of me hasn't been formed in me, like it hasn't been formed in other generations of my family.  :blink: That these experiences are showing me that there's still a part to be healed.

Poss tw~

What if...that SA dream/part had to do with something experienced by another member of my family years ago. I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing anyone's experience of  SA on this forum. I remember my grandmother telling me that women were covering themselves in dirt and making themselves look ugly, hiding in sheds, so that Russian soldiers wouldn't find them and rape them during the war. Maybe just being told this as a child has created something in my mind?

End poss tw~

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 23, 2021, 02:51:38 PM
When you first posted about that dream I don't think I realized it involved SA. I'm sorry. Those dreams are really upsetting. It leaves me grasping for explanations too and the unknown sucks. I have no idea how to make sense of the intergenerational experiences people report. So just a gentle hug if it feels right for what you are going through.  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 24, 2021, 09:53:42 AM
Thanks Armee  :hug:

This past week it came to me that the procrastination (aversion?) that I struggle with to do certain things that I guess I know I should be doing, is probably the same thing that led me into therapy  20 years ago. I was in university and struggling to complete papers and would have insomnia, staying up all night worrying, but unable to finish essays. My gm suggested therapy and when I went it was an emotional explosion. I don't know what it was - being a top student and feeling like I wasn't top anymore (even though I was in an honours program); that I didn't have the support framework that my family; cptsd perfectionism (what if I got it wrong and my family was upset). Well, more like what I thought was the support network actually showing itself for what it was. Maybe this is a part of me now that is still relying on this idea of my family as a support network, or on the idea of who I was around them? I guess this makes sense with the other young part showing up who had to handle everything and couldn't let anything show? This reluctance to move on (?) showed up in mediation today.

Noticing some things around the characteristics she describes as empathetic in the book in myself. Going out in public was always a big one for me. It's like I feel competitiveness from people, or pushed around; that people engage me to work out their own ego issues/issues around self worth. I think there's something in my interpretation that's my "old stuff" but I'm working on that  ;D But it is a feeling of overwhelm/being drained by this stuff. Maybe it's not just CPTSD, that I'm not just being triggered (that it's not just something in me, that I'm doing wrong, having to fix etc) but picking up on other peoples' intentions and having to listen to what's actually going on. Or that I can't just tune in to myself/what I feel like I should be tuning into because I have to deal with this stuff. Something to think about.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on November 25, 2021, 09:12:15 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 26, 2021, 11:27:51 AM
Thanks Hope  :hug:

Struggling to deal with my passive aggressive neighbour. I've never heard someone spend so much time in their bathroom before  :no:  This is another thing that I can relate to about being empathetic where she describes about loving to be awake after everyone has gone to bed as it gives her a time to be alone. I've heard my neighbour speaking with other neighbours outside my window, discussing whether I've gone to work or not. I think most people would dismiss these feelings as paranoia which is quite alienating, but the thought of being watched/judged really bothers me.

I'm grateful for this time off right now to focus on "my stuff." I'm going to write a list of things that I can relate to about being empathetic. I feel it's helpful how to deal with things in the present time or understanding my inner relationship to things that happened; how I emotionally coped with them if that makes sense, or factors that shaped how I emotionally coped.

Poss tw~

I've been reading Mark Woylen's It Doesn't Start With You and it's pretty amazing. There is so much trauma in the last three generations on my mom's side and some trauma on my dad's side as well, and I am "forgetting"/not adding my dad's suicide (??). It's fascintaing how we could be subconsciously identifying with someone in our family. Maybe this is where the SA stuff/fears do come from. It's really something to think about.

It's funny how things come together. Talking about dating with someone and she mentioned to embody the "feminine," to just let things come to you. Immediately, I knew that I had issues around this (and likely stemming from my mom). A day later I read "when a child unconsciously takes on a parent's burden, he or she misses out on the experience of being given to and can have difficulty receiving from relationships later in life" in MW's book. I think this is also related to the part that has to do everything myself. I see this in my m and gm as well.

This child will then likely "forge a lifelong pattern of over extension...and perpetually feeling overwhelmed." So, that can also relate to people pleasing I think. He also goes on to say that the integrity of the parent-child relationship must be maintained (where the parent is the giver/care-taker and the child the receiver). This explains the dynamic between my gm and I, where there was perpetually something wrong (physically usually) that was always a crisis and I would come in and try to help/fix it (caretake) and she would reject it. For me, it was exhausting to be in a state of alarm/sympathy about what was going on with her that I felt like I had to do something, especially since she wouldn't help herself and remained locked in these self destructive behaviours. It's interesting that my gm wasn't a parent but a gp. Maybe I was taking on my mom's role as a daughter since she was an MIA with NPD. This makes sense too that I would be identifying with her SA and that's why it's coming up? Also, the competition between my mom and I. But where did this come from in the first place?

Long post ...  :disappear:

I'm not sure how I feel about his solution yet that we're to come to an understanding and repair our relationships with our parents through love. He hasn't touched on abuse and how we're to approach our familial relationships if there was cruelty there and hold that person with love (like with my m). I started writing down all the trauma in my family that I can remember being told. My gm talked about how strict her f was and how his mother was very cold and didn't really like children. Maybe my m was taking on these behaviours, that it's something continuing in the family.

I feel like I can step outside of the npd dynamic in my family writing about this and thinking about it this way which is a relief. It does feel like a lot though and somewhat exhausting. T is away this week unfortunately. Will try to decompress on walks.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 26, 2021, 02:53:42 PM
Reading, reading, reading...I think I'm preparing going back home for xmas.

It hit me after reading that maybe my mom telling me I was a mistake was because she was a mistake? My gm got pregnant at 16/17 not knowing that it could happen the first time. She was projecting this on me

:spaceship:

Something else that's been in the back of my mind is the insomnia about finishing papers. I was always a good student and rewarded for it. One person who never acknowledged it was my m. I was also told to finish school and that my m didn't finish (or didn't go to college and went to work) and she was so smart etc. It was almost like in doing it I would be better than her. Perhaps I didn't want to continue out of loyalty to my m?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 26, 2021, 03:34:15 PM
I appreciate your share Dolly.  I've been wondering about all of the things I have learned from my family from daily interactions that I'm not aware of.  It's a lot to consider.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 26, 2021, 08:02:29 PM

I'm not sure how I feel about his solution yet that we're to come to an understanding and repair our relationships with our parents through love.


It makes me feel queasy knowing that many of us come from families where this would not only be not healthy but downright damaging. I know I tried I tried and I tried. In the end my mom died with me being "bad" despite trying to contort myself my whole life to be good and kind and helpful. With so so much damage to myself.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 27, 2021, 09:14:57 AM
Thank you rainy - I definitely recommend this book

Armee - these things are very difficult to deal  with. I think maybe (hoping at least) that this book might make it easier, or help me to see that my m wasn't acting that way because of me and that it was coming from somewhere. That to a certain degree we are playing roles in our family. However, we do have the choice and ability to become conscious of that role and decide what we want to do with it.

It's interesting that I've thought before that I was taking some stuff on from my m and noticing the competition (or jealousy) from my m that I was maybe somehow taking her place, or that the family was supportive of me and not her.

I've been thinking of the time around university when I started getting insomnia and not being able to complete things. This was in my second year, I didn't have it in my first. It must have been triggered by something. Do I not want to complete things because then I will have a life outside my family and leave them behind? That a part of me still doesn't want to see them suffer or think that I can't do well if they aren't? Or maybe it's if I'm successful then I will owe them something and have to be responsible for them; that I can't have my own life? I guess either way, I'm not having my own life.

Maybe I'm starting to see patterns but not sure what they are. My gm moved away from a communist country at 17 to have a "better life" in the West. Or that's how it seemed - that when we went back there was a show of things/money which seemed beyond her means. Maybe she had to show them she was doing well because they didn't want her to leave and thought she was making a mistake. I guess like me she had to prove it to them. I also moved across the world to be away from a difficult family for a better life. That's pretty accurate hmmm.

The examples in the book seem so easy - oh we just discovered you're acting our your dead uncle's role subconsciously. I feel like there's a lot of overlap or maybe multiples traumas with me? Maybe that there's enmeshment with my gm and m that are different. Maybe it just takes more time to unpack.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 27, 2021, 11:17:04 AM
Wow...in writing about what our responses to an early break in the bond with our mother, he writes:

"Body memories of the separation can be triggered, however, when bonding or distancing is experienced in relationships. Without ever understanding why, we can feel overwhelmed by feelings of terror, dissociation, numbness, disconnection, defeat and annihiliation."

The reaction to the guy at work makes sense as someone who was getting close to me as well as the dissociation on the other date.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 28, 2021, 10:02:54 AM
When thinking back to some previous IFS journeys. The above reminds me of these parts who were really loud, or just kind of strong and destructive (?) like a rock part (a little emotional bulldozer) and a part that I had to lock away; that I couldn't get a handle on and wasn't sure what was going on. These parts were very hard to calm down and to speak to. When looked at as parts relating to early separation and the feelings associated with that (terror, defeat, annihilation, disassociation), it makes sense why I couldn't get a handle on them. A baby experiencing these things with no awareness of how to process it, it must've been extremely overwhelming.

T has talked before about precognitive development and how there are things that maybe we don't have words for. I'm interested in how to better develop a relationship to these parts. Maybe in the past I shut them out because there wasn't a way to communicate with them, that they hadn't learned how to speak and I didn't know how to relate.  Maybe now there's a way to relate where I'm not swallowed up (or trying to emulate a mother who also doesn't know how to relate).
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 28, 2021, 03:17:18 PM
 :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 29, 2021, 12:22:36 PM
Thank you Armee  :hug:

There is a big chapter about precognitive development and how it affects us. I'm going back through my family history and I think there is a definite theme about separation.

Going through old emails today to try and find my gm's brother's email and I ran across an email from a cousin, wishing us his condolences after my gm's passing. At the end there was ps that my gm had mentioned how much she wanted peace between my brother and I when they talked last Christmas as if this was her last dying wish and something I should do. Rage. And then step back and see what I actually need to do is have good boundaries with my brother. That he was going around telling people that I only cared about money, trying to tell my grandfather that I caused my stepfather to become ill (which I later confronted him about and he didn't know what to say). There's no way to make peace with this? I guess it just implies that I'm in the wrong and to suck it up and take on his irresponsibilities at the expense of my self just because we're family.

My gm did the same thing with my mom, overlooking her treatment of me at my expense. I don't know where this stuff comes from. I guess there's a thing in the "old country" that it's family above all else; that you can't make it without your family. Or maybe this is just a belief that's been passed down in my family? I guess it revealed my anger trigger  ;D Interestingly, there is a similarity between my gm and her brother and me and my brother I think. There was an issue between them over the will when their mother died, and he was trying to leave her out of the inheritance. He is also someone who is looking for money all the time as well as the favorite child I think (I can't remember the exact details but seems to fit).



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 29, 2021, 02:55:03 PM
Dolly, I am learning a lot from your journey - thanks for sharing here.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 30, 2021, 10:48:05 AM
Thanks rainy  :hug: sometimes it feels weird to share this with random, anonymous people on the internet but I'm glad there are people out there like you who get it as so often people irl don't seem to relate.

So, I went rogue yesterday and sent an email to my cousin explaining where I was coming from and explaining what was going on with my family after my m died. It feels like ripping a lid off of all this stuff that is not talked about in my family. I'm noticing how there is a veneer; that we had to pretend about a lot of things. I feel like if she were alive she would be accusing me , or it would have something to do with me interfering in her relationships. Part of me is just like let this stuff go, but I also feel that my brother is acting so out of line that I have to say something.

I also too wonder if there is a trauma in my family about speaking out and being punished for it. My gf told me yesterday that my g gf got in trouble and demoted at work after my gm left her communist country. I also did the core language exercises in the MW It Didn't Start With You book and they were surprising. My worst fear is apparently that I will become homeless and lose all my money; that I couldn't be free and would be "enslaved" to other people. The pictures I'm seeing of refugees right now are really upsetting and I think of my gm as a refugee. People came out and stopped the life boats from rescuing people that might drown this week and it's so disturbing. I can see where core fear might be coming from in my family and how much they had to fight but there are a few more places it could have come from.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on November 30, 2021, 02:22:50 PM
Dolly, those images you share of refugees are so visceral.  I was watching a documentary recently and they shared about events that are still happening today.  I admire for you for exploring the things you may carry that come from previous generations. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 05, 2021, 09:50:29 AM
Thanks rainy  :hug: this stuff is happening and (not to go on a political rant) the human element is often left out in favour of political bias. Having to deal with people right now who are very adamant about this is upsetting.

Had a good session with T yesterday and discussed all the generational trauma stuff that has been coming up which she seemed really on board with. I feel like it's definitely opening something up. Also talked about my dad a bit and she mentioned again how we never seem to talk about him. I think it was something I couldn't talk about as I didn't like peoples' reactions to suicide. It seemed more about their own distress and imagining what it might be like than about what I was actually feeling. So, I didn't talk about it a lot. There was a lot of emotion w/ T tho and wondering if just keeping it all in and not processing it is still a factor.

Work was challenging. I don't know how to describe it but I find being around people is exhausting right now. Maybe it's a perverbal part that is always worried about attachment working in the background. I can see that.

I also realized that I'm quite rigid work about people listening to me, or that essentially when I'm discussing my POV it's like a part of me is "warning them about danger," or is how the young part sees it I think. That essentially, I'm paid to give my opinion which is the way of "doing it correctly" or with best results for work needed further down the line. I don't know if how I'm presenting it is influencing their reactions to the material itself, but I guess to me it feels like this part that is keeping things safe is not listened to and I am "on my own." Or I am dismissed like I was with my mom? She did that quite a lot, behaved like that she didn't need me, or I guess want me then tell me that you know I love you right. I guess this was her passing her own feelings of rejection and abandonment on. This is how this generational stuff works?

I also listened to a bit of the CPTSD & IFS workshop that Snowdrop mentioned and thought it stood out for me what he said about relational trauma and that our CPTSD can trigger relational trauma in the therapist. I guess too, it can trigger people around us? Maybe this is where being hyperaware of others reactions and thinking, "it's me, I did something," can stem from too? How the original wounding carries on.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 05, 2021, 01:34:37 PM
Dolly, I agree that folks often act as though things just happen and are not reflecting on ways we contribute.  I appreciate your reflections about generational impact.  I am wondering about this too and feeling a lot of pressure to "fix" things I can't fix that are built into our society.  Yesterday I was part of a conversation where someone said something like there comes a point where you realize you can't change something as it is exists so you create what you see is lacking which makes the old thing obsolete. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 05, 2021, 08:21:38 PM
Thanks rainy, seeing peoples' insensitivity is hard as I think it brings up a lot of stuff in me about not being cared for etc too. I'm wondering if the need to fix things is a projection for what couldn't be fixed for you growing up in order to feel safe? I know a lot of how covid was handled here brought up the feeling of being small again and having out of control people in charge who are not taking care of me. Hmm that's interesting...what was the example they were thinking of?

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 05, 2021, 09:49:06 PM
I feel that too Dolly.  If I am reading your entry right, you are asking what the context was of the conversation I was in.  I will answer that and if I misunderstood, here is extra information. 

I was in my yoga training and we've talked a lot about how yoga is this ancient practice from India primarily.  However the way it looks today especially in Western countries is very far from the intent of the practice.  My group was processing how we participate in that and how we could create spaces differently that are more in line with our values. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 06, 2021, 09:19:39 AM
I think I get you now - cultural appropriation in yoga and how you can't seem to get away from it in the mainstream but it's divergent in that form from its spiritual roots. I can see why you would want to "fix" that. Not sure if it's completely relevant to what you were talking about but I participated in a weekend retreat with Tenzin Wangal Rinpoche a couple months ago and he was discussing attachment and looking at why we're attached to things. He made a really good point of a lot of  the times we're attached to things, there's an "I" in it, or we have a motivation. He mentioned checking covid deaths and worrying about numbers, and said what we're really concerned about it is will it affect me? I know I do this with climate change. Even the refugee stuff I was speaking about - I'm worried about it because it's affecting me emotionally. To me, it's not necessarily good or bad that this is happening, but becomes about an awareness of where it's coming from and why.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 07, 2021, 09:35:49 AM
Have been feeling quite tired after work; being around people right now is taking a lot out of me. Sometimes I feel like I can't communicate to people what I'm going through (and tbf I wouldn't mention it to the wolves at work) so trying to manage my facade but still process these things is tricky.

I was asked to work on a project this week that would essentially be the pinnacle for me, I couldn't do any better than this. This is the offer  anyone would want. I was still in disbelief after I read the offer and honestly thought it couldn't be right. I think they might be going a different way but kept it open if something happens in the future. I immediately thought of everything that could go wrong and what all the people would say about me if it did. Or that they choose someone else because of x about me. Trying to get over those thoughts would be a big hurdle. A friend put me forward for it and I've been having difficulty remembering that there are people who connected to me and who I am who are around me professionally.

Did some sky meditation the other night at sunset and I love the colours. There were no clouds and there were soft purple, pinks and greys in the sky. The ground had a greenish blue touch to it. I tried to connect and it came up how hard I was trying, that these things should be effortless and spontaneous. Right then a black dot sort of floated, flew by. It didn't fly like a moth but seemed too big to be a bumble bee. I think maybe it was a gentle reminder to just float too.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on December 07, 2021, 10:08:08 AM
I have parts who get jumpy about new projects too. They sometimes see them as threats, so I have to spend time helping them feel safe again. I hope yours are able to settle down soon.

The sunset you describe sounds beautiful. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 07, 2021, 01:33:09 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I wanted to comment on how I enjoyed reading your description of the sky - with the lovely colours, when you were doing your sky meditation.  The reminder that came to 'just float too' sounds just right. 

The invitation to work on the project at work sounds like a big deal, and I'm glad they chose you for it.  I know and appreciate that you have had many different thoughts and feelings relating to being asked to do it, but I feel happy for you that they chose you. 

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 07, 2021, 02:15:37 PM
Dolly, best wishes navigating work and energy for interaction.  I appreciate you sharing about the sky meditation - I love looking at the sky and never considered it as meditation.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 08, 2021, 10:25:59 AM
Thank you Snowdrop

Thank you Hope - I'm hoping to be more just floating. I had to break out into a smile when I saw it go by in its meandering way 

Thank you rainy - it's part of the Dzogchen tradition and I find it calming

Feeling a bit spun out after work and process the feelings that came up. Also, spent some time with a friend over the last few days helping him set up something online which was very draining. I essentially ended up doing it for him and don't think he has the capability to do it himself. I think being relied on in this way freaks me out as it's too much like taking on someone else's responsibilities, which I guess it is in  way. I wonder if I've gotten myself into a situation again where I was being "agreeable" but have now ended up feeling like my boundaries are crossed.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 09, 2021, 09:17:35 AM
I wanted to mention a tv show I watched this week called Love Life with Anna Kendrick. Nothing major, but I was bothered by how they portrayed narcissism in it. Her mom is clearly a narcissist yet she goes to therapy and they end up having a heart to heart in a mattress store after Kendrick breaks down that no one ever bought her a mattress. I'm pretty sure I've been the her in the mattress store wondering what I've done that no one has ever been there for me, only for themselves. However, there was no moment of realization and understanding between us. Only perpetual crazy -making behaviour/care-taking that I had to walk away from and deal with on my own.

I like the person Kendrick becomes - strong and self reliant, just doing her thing mistakes and all. It's just the Hollywood-ization of these things that's upsetting. The happy ending that doesn't seem to come? I'm not sure why I'm expecting this? That these were the only examples of happy relationships I saw growing up--what i related to as normal? I also watched the documentary on Anthony Bourdain recently and was pretty stunned to how his friends reacted to his suicide. It was like a part of them was torn away.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on December 09, 2021, 01:15:07 PM
thank you dolly,  i needed to hear that last sentence.  i know it affects so many others.  i hope you are having a great day !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 12, 2021, 11:12:39 AM
Thank you Larry

Feel somewhat justified and that am not off my rocker for feeling cautious about my neighbour and her passive-aggressiveness. I came home last night and there was a note in the foyer about sorting a drain out. The flat wasn't specified or the specific issue, but it could be mine, as there was pooling before but I cleaned it out months ago. I spoke with the neighbour downstairs whom I've talked to about the drain before, and who it would be affecting, and she said she didn't leave it and didn't know of any issue. Though afterward she mentioned something about moss in the drain. She also said if there was an issue that she would've knocked on my door.

I told her if anything comes up to let me know and I'll flag it up and try to get it sorted with the building agency. I really want to write back on that note there's no issue and if there is, to be direct or mind your own business - happy holidays! But it feels childish and just drawing out the drama.

Bothers me that the neighbours would be talking behind my back but maybe I'm being paranoid at that point (that the downstairs neighbour said something, and then the upstairs neighbour did something about it). Something is off with this neighbour beside me. Her children don't visit her and she never has anyone over. Maybe it's because of covid, I don't know. I've caught her sweeping her debris under my gate before and was pretty hostile last year when I was getting parcels for work. I wasn't expecting anything or her to take them. I know she's home all day. I would have just taken them and left them at her door, but that's me.

It's strange as yesterday, I was feeling better about the situation and that she could thump around but I wasn't doing anything wrong. And I felt that, that I wasn't doing anything wrong. It brings up something I've discussed with t before that my grandmother said about people being miserable and wanting you to be miserable along with them. It sounds extreme, but things like this happen and it brings me back to that. I'm trying to practice the idea more of being like a window and letting other peoples' emotions pass through you. I guess this is conflict and it brings up a lot of stuff in me about what I might have done wrong, being blamed for and that my safe space at home is not safe which sends me into hypervigilance. Trying to relax and think of good ways to handle this. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 12, 2021, 04:45:03 PM
Hi dolly,

I'm sorry you aren't feeling emotionally safe in your home. I agree with you that your neighbor seems to want everyone to be miserable with her. I like your practice of being like a window. I'm going to adopt that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 13, 2021, 09:43:37 AM
Thanks Armee - I'm trying not to get hooked into these things and just let it pass through

Neighbour was stomping around at 3am last night. I thought I sounded paranoid before when I was thinking it but I think I can see it's happened enough times now (3+) that it's not coincidence and happens when she's angry. Also trying not to sound paranoid, but she was using the bathroom 10+ times a day which next to my bedroom/office, and I didn't like the idea of people knowing what I'm up to, so I put the radio on at a low volume, checked it with a decibel meter--showed it's the same level as a library/conversation at home--and it makes me think that this started because of that. But I also think I have a right to reasonable activity in my own space. I couldn't hear the radio when I was in the next room with the door closed. (I think this also has to do with my gm and how I felt suffocated - that I didn't have free space to just be).

This is a theme I think, dealing with people like this who are subtle and manipulative. Anyways, it brings up a lot of stuff. I don't know why I just can't stand up and that's it and not have it bother me. I think it's the aggressiveness and anger and it reminds me of my mom and her unpredictable actions towards me. This was also in my dad who used to have outbursts but didn't come after me really like my mom did. He did verbally accuse me of things maybe but not often and also apologized for them after.

Did my first meditation in a while this morning. I don't know why I've been putting it off. Maybe since I started reading about generational connections in trauma I've been feeling more out of it, processing stuff? I went back to the cave I saw in an IFS journey before where I encountered a "bullying" mom part. While I breathing around this memory (difficult to hold and visualize as well) an image of my step father came up and I didn't want to hold it. I think more anger and fear came up. I tried to soften around the image but I didn't want to take it into my body, or felt like I would take it into my body and it would be a part of me? I think a part of me didn't want to feel compassion for the image and maybe  didn't want to let go of the anger and fear towards it, which protected me growing up. I know he had a difficult and abusive childhood where his father was quite cruel to him. I guess that's what he tried to do to me and was jealous of me and any good attention I received.

This is where the part in the MW book It Doesn't Start With You becomes difficult. How can I soften towards this person and still feel safe? He's not my family member, do I have to take this life force in me? Can I reject it? Maybe it's a stand in/or mirror of my mom's actions/ life force that I have face (that these traits are in her as well) and to take them in? That she's not going to be this perfect mom?

There's still a lot coming up in this book that I don't know where to start  :disappear: I think I've tried to step in with a few family members and see that it was my responsibility to alleviate their pain. Or feel that it was up to me to do that. I think my mom telling me I abandoned her and my gm freaking out with hyperbolic illnesses where we would need/expected to be concerned for her health that she would then not take care of, put me in a position of taking on that responsibility. She would also tell me how I was special etc and kind -- maybe this played into the belief (love I had for her) and wanting to do these things; that this is what you do out of love?

I'm not sure where this came from in my family. I have learned that my great gm was roughly the same age I was when I started getting insomnia in university and not being able to finish things when she gave birth to my gm. This was in 1939 at the start of WWII in Europe where they would have been impacted. I'm not sure how yet as their country wasn't invaded but maybe that fear was there of being imprisoned by others (if you didn't do what they want?)?  My great gm was born in 1917 at the end of WWI and the family was split up in 1920 as a result of one of the treaties. So, maybe there was also a fear of becoming homeless and being imprisoned there as well.

Anyways, long post. I think it's all rattling around in here and just trying to make sense of it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 13, 2021, 04:59:01 PM
Dolly, I am with you on the challenge of dealing with subtle manipulation.  I don't have any a-has but feel this difficulty.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Snowdrop on December 13, 2021, 06:30:02 PM
QuoteHow can I soften towards this person and still feel safe?

I don't know if this is helpful, but I've recently been able to see my HB as someone with a Self who's largely absent, and highly reactive protective parts. As my Self, I can feel compassion, but that does not make what he did to me ok. I'm also aware that it's not my responsibility to heal him, and his burdens are not mine to carry. My responsibility is to keep my own parts safe.

Please ignore this if it's not helpful or relevant. :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on December 14, 2021, 02:13:34 AM
hi dolly, 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 16, 2021, 01:41:28 PM
 :hug:

Hugs for the difficult stuff coming up.

Hmmm....I'd be tempted to up the volume on that radio but I suppose that wouldn't solve anything.  :Idunno:

You do have a right to low volume noise in your own home.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 17, 2021, 02:11:22 PM
Thanks rainy - I commented on your journal today a little about this but I feel having family members go behind our backs probably has something to do with handling people like this and that it can be overwhelming. I've also been reading about passive aggressive behaviour and how people try to get you to act out their anger by behaving in that way. I think it's upsetting on a level because I still have (not that I ever won't??) anger around how I was treated growing up? I don't know though. Also, someone mentioned pa behaviour and needing to set good boundaries. I guess I'm still working on this and gets better when I feel that I deserve these boundaries.

Thanks Snowdrop - Thank you for your insight. It's something to think about. It's even a challenge to imagine that as Self - I'm trying not to go straight into defensive mode when the idea of him comes up. I guess that's something to work on. I don't know if I have the compassion right now. Maybe I'm still invested as I'm still dealing with him and the estate and he continues to be cruel and unfair. Anyways, it's something to think about.

Thanks Larry  :sunny:

Thanks Armee - I feel the same way but it doesn't seem to sink in. I have to keep reminding my brain/body that I have a right to low level noise in my home and her behaviour is her own reaction. I know if I would go the loud noise route it might just escalate the situation. Some people are unfortunately unreasonable, but I do need to find a way not to take it on.

I think maybe the mediation with my sf has made me a little more disorganized/on edge than normal. I'm forgetting things the past couple days. It's like I have this idea of myself in mind around people--that I have to be nice, that there's a certain way to act--but when people get to close these things go out of the window, or there's anger sometimes that bubbles up. That people can get to me as well because I'm maybe over focused on keeping up the idea of the person I have to be...I don't know.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 19, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
Spoke with t yesterday about neighbour situation. Realizing now that I could see what she was like many months ago after the "packages" incident (where she basically shoved it at me and said you're getting a lot of packages). I think maybe I did see it then but went through a downplaying, minimizing process because I think I've been in so many situations in my life where I've said I feel like...and people have just shrugged it off or told me I was too sensitive or not to worry about it. Meanwhile, I go into full hypervigilance mode and then have to downplay this to people around me or I'll look "crazy" or paranoid.

I can see similarities between not wanting to take this situation on (in?) and the situation with my stepfather. That in both cases I'm dealing with the feelings of I did something wrong and I don't want to have a conversation where I have to be empathetic to them as it leaves me feeling like a doormat/not heard. Maybe it's just because, in my experience, there is no way to have a reasonable conversation with people like this. Also thinking back, I recall my gm saying to me that my sf wasn't so bad and that he's changing, which was then like I had to forgive and forget all the stuff he did just so my gm could have the "family" together.

It also came up that I would feel like I was manipulating her if I tried to have a conversation about what the issue might be. I wasn't quite sure how to explain it, but I think it might be because I don't think there's an issue/ that it would mean I have to soften (yet again) and be the giver to someone who is trying to be selfish and dominate a situation just to have their way. I feel like I'm maybe being stubborn with this but also that I just don't want to be in that position any more. Maybe this is a young part (who I feel is being selfish?) that I haven't met yet? This stuff just gets to a place where it's very difficult to find space and distance with it.

Also, am flying back home in a few days. I've been staying inside and being careful. I just hope I can travel and get away from this situation for a bit.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on December 19, 2021, 01:05:20 PM
hi dolly,  sounds like a lot of confusing things going on.  i'm sorry you have to deal with  so many things.  i hope you have a safe trip going home. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 21, 2021, 11:27:37 AM
Thanks Larry - yeah it's hard to find space to deal with these things but it also feels like a little more clarity which is hopeful  :hug:

I'm reading all your posts even if I'm not commenting and am with you guys. It's really helpful to read your journals and see that other people are going through similar things over the holidays. I think for so long it felt like I was the only one, or one of few, not having a good holiday with family.

Going home feels different this time, not like last time. I think I felt off because I had to avoid my family and wasn't going to let my mom off the hook for how she behaved on my previous trip at Christmas and I know my gm would have just glossed over everything. This feels lowkey but don't really have a lot of expectations. Maybe last time I had the image of who i had, or thought I had to be, in place, ignoring the difficult stuff with my family.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 21, 2021, 02:01:22 PM
Best wishes for your trip.  I will be thinking of you.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 21, 2021, 04:13:15 PM
I'll be thinking of you on your trip home.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 23, 2021, 04:54:38 PM
Thanks you rainy & Armee  :hug:

Made it back and have been staying in a hotel the past few days acclimatizing. The plane ride was difficult and felt like I was around a lot of passive aggressive personalities. It's funny that they were all women. I feel like a lot of women carry a lot of judgement for how other women should behave. I feel like I'm happy for someone when I see them as successful, beautiful, etc but I guess I do also carry judgement for whether or not I think they're a nice, genuine person. Anyways, it brought up boundary stuff in me that again, am I doing something wrong by being who I am? I feel like I'm coming from a good place but also know they old saying  that if everyone else is always the problem then maybe the problem isn't everyone else.

My neighbour had her door open as I was leaving as well. Part of me is pretty sure she overheard the conversation about my flight the day before and was keeping a watch for what was going on, or she just heard me moving equipment and was keeping an eye out.

I feel pretty pedantic with this stuff right now. I guess it stops me (or does it?) from just going out and being more spontaneous and open when I think there's going to be consequences for my actions that also take me back to when I was a child. I read something that you have the right to fiercely protect your boundaries.

I found some posts that I felt were really valid:

A lot of unnecessary suffering comes from trying to interact with a reality you wish existed, instead of contending with the one that does. At its root it's avoidance - it's discomfort or fear around facing this reality. 

She discusses how we do this with our self concept but I also feel like it's related to my FOO reality and how I feel about being back at home. I feel like I'm trying to be the more honest person I can be with myself when I'm away.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Alter-eg0 on December 23, 2021, 05:40:15 PM
Interesting observation. If wonder if women are more prone to be passive aggressive, because as women we are "not allowed" to be "aggressive". Like, set firm boundaries, get angry, anything like that. And thus you learn to get your needs or boundaries met in a more "hidden" way, hence passive aggression.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 24, 2021, 10:56:14 AM
Thank you Alter - I 100% agree with this. I read an interesting article about how anger is frowned upon in meditation circles and something to be gotten rid of. The author wrote that as a POC her anger has also been stigmatized by white, female classmates under the guise of white femininity which was "expressed in violently passive ways in order to preserve a superficial facade of softness and docility." This was the first time I connected with why I felt outside of being "feminine;" that my anger which helped protect me as made me an outsider (not to mention unattractive, ugly etc). It was an interesting read: https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/acknowledging-anger-and-developing-compassion

Am staying with my gf today and have just woken up in the middle of the night. I danced around posting this last night, that I was over analyzing it, that I'm looking into it too much, how could it really be, that I must be off because he loves me and it wouldn't happen.

My gm has been saying since before she died that she wanted me to have her jewellery. She was going to send it to me in and I told her that we'd deal with it when the time comes. I was looking through photos and my gm's old family letters last night of when she first came to Canada and my gf mentioned something about her Eisenhower silver dollars and I looked them up; some of them could be worth quite a bit. My gm is very careful about her possessions and she kept everything. I think it has something to do with growing up in WWII/coming from a communist country. Anyways, I had been thinking that I would help him while I'm here and clear out some of the stuff since there's so much. Also, that I could help him put it online/ebay since it might get a better price.

So, he went to get the silver dollars but couldn't find them in the closet. I pulled out a couple of the coin boxes and went through them. The coins were all mixed in with all her gold jewellery and old watches. He mentioned before that all the jewellery boxes were on the dresser. It sounded like the women they have help them clean and him (?) went through everything as he said she'll know where they are when they couldn't find them. Maybe this was from before??? Anyways, he said this while I was going through the boxes and said strangely, I'm not trying to hide anything from you. It just seemed like such a strange thing to say - I would have never even thought it. He was saying that your gm wanted you to have the jewellery etc but in my mind it sounded like they had gone through the boxes and none of the expensive gold jewellery was with the boxes he mentioned. I asked him if they had gone through the boxes and he said no, but that closet was completely empty and she knew where they would be? He's also wearing a half ounce gold necklace that he said he found after she passed and how he never wore a ring and the ring she wanted to give him (her grandfather's) always fell off. I never asked him about the necklace.

I'm typing out this last part and know he must have gone through the boxes, saw something he wanted to remind himself of her (or just took what he wanted), which is fine with me, I understand. It's just the lying and the duplicitousness of it that enrages me. This is the crazy-making behaviour of my family. I had to type it out here because I felt like I was spinning out, that something was wrong but I couldn't put my finger on it. The energy was off last night too and he was irritating me. I look at myself rn being the "good" granddaughter, wanting to help because he's got so much to go through and wanting him to actually get a decent return instead of giving it to good will, and I'm like what am I doing? I'm being played again like a clown.

We were also speaking with his nephew on the phone and he was mentioning how he lived with my uncle and that he saw him recently and that he looked much better now that he was on his meds properly (he is diagnosed bipolar) but also all the things that happened when he used to live with my uncle when he wasn't on his meds. He said that my dad was also the nicest of the brothers and was surprised that there was also a sister, my aunt who I said was similar to my dad; that she got her stuff together and struggled to get her accounting certificate but now manages a team of accountants. My gf seemed surprised at this. It felt like there was some narrative in his head about that side of my family (he's a step gf). I'd been feeling like there was some idea in his head about how well his nephew was doing, what a good guy etc (and I do think he's a nice guy and his wife sounds lovely) but that it was compared to me and somehow, I came up short, or that he couldn't acknowledge my success. Maybe my taking a step back from the family hurt him but it's not like they came to a place to understand why I was feeling the way I was. I'm pretty sure I told them why I was hurting. Even after my brother lied and went behind my back, they knew and still invited him over for a bbq because my gm wanted it.

Anyways, this has been really helpful to write this down even if it's a long post. I can somehow see it when it's written down better.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 24, 2021, 11:12:43 AM
Thinking about this and if he wanted a piece of jewellery to remember her by, why wouldn't he bring it up with her before she died? Why go through something that she wanted to give to me without saying something to her, or to me? I would have said ok. And then I think what have I done to make my family think that I would be unreasonable about this? That I have to remember that I don't think I have done anything except try to assert boundaries with my family, which is healthy, necessary and good for me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 24, 2021, 04:30:02 PM
 :hug:

It sounds really confusing and hurtful. Those situations that are all murky can be the hardest mentally to deal with.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 25, 2021, 11:48:10 AM
Thank you Armee  :hug:

Looking at this again, I think I was being paranoid. But I guess there is a reason for feeling like that in the first place. I asked him about it and where he found it, just causally and he said it was in her jewellery box and that he'd show me. I guess it was where he said on the counter. I'm just feeling really off being back. There's something going on that's stressing me out about being around other people and feeling hyper protective. I'm also a bit upset with myself for being unreasonable.

I'm having a really hard time today. I'm going through the house, helping clean out my grandmother's things and came across her medical file today. Apparently she had been seeing a psychiatrist (and on valium) for a lot of the 70s/early 80s. There were things about me but also the incident at the babysitter's and how there was suspected SA because "the other boys were concerned that I wanted to 'suck them off' and that she was taking me to an SA specialist and that my dad was a suspect" The next entry makes no mention of this again, but that she should organize her life around me as much as possible as it alleviates her depression. The next entry is just about my gm and how she was trying to go back to her ex husband in anyway she could even though all they did was argue.

I remember seeing this psychologist and the incident with the babysitter. I don't remember any SA though. What was said by the psychologist? Maybe because we didn't go back it wasn't deemed worthy to follow up on? My mom, her bf and I were living with my gf when I was around this age. i remember sleeping in the same bed with them so maybe it's possible that I saw something that happened and it didn't happen to me per se. But would I be this emotional if something didn't happen? I don't know. I keep tearing up. If this happened, then it was someone close and who would that be? I'm going to go back and look at these incidents as a child where something happened (caught playing doctor etc) as I think there were a few. I don't know, I don't really understand it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 25, 2021, 05:08:58 PM
Oh Dolly. That is really difficult stuff to have stumbled on. Go slow, OK? And even if was witnessing something in a shared bed, being put in a position to see that is also sexual abuse of a child. Gentle hugs.  :hug:

And the paranoia....not paranoia. There's a reason you feel the way you did about what happened with the jewelry. You have a reason to not trust. I remember many such incidents with my mom where I was left feeling confused and crazy, but I wasn't. You aren't.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 25, 2021, 09:41:55 PM
Thanks Armee, it's just crazy to see it written down on the paper  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on December 26, 2021, 01:14:40 AM
Dolly, I notice you have experienced a lot on this trip beginning at home with your neighbor, exploring anger, the travel to the visit, the family dynamics influenced by the past and present, and all the questions arising.  I am sending you wishes for a gentle time.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 26, 2021, 02:45:53 AM
Thank you Rainy...I appreciate you saying that.

I spoke about this with my aunt yesterday who has always been there for me. I felt crazy talking about it, part of me felt like maybe she downplayed it a bit too.

Reading the psychologist and psychiatrists reports were sort of grounding. That my childhood sort of happened as I remembered it, being with my grand mother a lot, and my mom not being around only it was way more chaotic. Maybe that's why I don't remember much from that time. They also said that my gm was unwilling to tackle her problems, that basically she was just looking for emotional support even though she could think psychologically about things. They also stated financial issues and how much chaos she was in, but never about how much money she spent ie driving a Cadillac during this time, trying to live up to an "image.". Also, her fragile sense of self and fear of being rejected, which does all sound like narcissism to me even though the T's never directly mention it which is interesting. I can see her pouring everything into me because of this depression, as it says on the reports, and that I had to carry that too. I think it's really helpful to see that written down. I'm going to show to my T though and see what she thinks.

My gf got up this morning right when I got up. I wanted to have coffee and relax but we had to open his presents right away. He gave me bracelet, told me the receipt was in there if I wanted to exchange it. I said I didn't and then he made a point of taking out the receipt and telling me how much it cost. The whole thing made me feel really uncomfortable. He kept asking me while I was cooking if I wanted things, to spend time with him but when we finally sat down to dinner he didn't say anything and watched tv. This with other stuff makes me uncomfortable and I even wonder if SA happened could it have him. I thought i remember him/my gm saying that he used to babysit me (or maybe just knew me at that age). I asked him about it today and felt like he tensed up. Another part of me is thinking what am I doing thinking this, I'm thinking very hurtful things about him. I planned on going to a hotel tomorrow and then visiting my aunt which I'm looking forward to. There's a lot to work out. Not the trip back I was expecting but probably good now to know this stuff.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on December 26, 2021, 12:30:03 PM
hi dolly,  i hope your day goes well,  i will be thinking about you,   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 26, 2021, 04:34:24 PM
Hi Dolly. Still sending tons of support. This is a lot to go through.

I think it is very natural to be reevaluating your gf and his reactions to you in light of evidence you were abused at a young age and don't know by who. There are of course other potential explanations for his odd behaviors. But also believing what your gut is telling you right now is super important. Be open to it being wrong but mostly go with what it is telling you and respect your reactions. I've found that I've needed to let my guard down a bit for important things to percolate up. If I'm constantly telling myself I'm wrong or there's no proof etc it is never going to be safe for me to get messages from my gut.

I'm also sorry that you were turned into a project to manage your grandma's depression or narcissism or borderline. That's not fair to a child. It does confirm a lot of the feelings you had and I get what you mean that it is grounding to see it written to see proof. You've been through a lot Dolly. You deserve to react, you deserve to have space and support. Go slow, go gentle. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 27, 2021, 03:08:11 PM
Thank you Larry 

Thank you Armee I think that's good advice. I'm trying to listen to my body now and what it's saying and what I'm picking up is kind of messed up. I just think about what my uncle would say who's friends with him or his nephew who he talks to all the time.

There's something that's shifted this time. There was no hug, no kiss etc with my gf. The jewellery thing was weird, the having to tell me how much he paid for my xmas present was weird. It's like I was there to serve him. The vibe was weird when sex was mentioned on the tv and if I accidentally touched his hand. Maybe this is how grandfather's/men are about sex with female relatives? I feel like I'm being assertive which is an issue for him, maybe for a lot of people right now. Maybe it's like my gm is gone and he can drop the facade? My body was reacting in a way that I find distressing.

I don't know if the psychologist's reports were maybe my gm and babysitter being dramatic about kids playing doctor since I remember them being pretty religious. There was the phone drunk phone call where my m asked my grandmother how could she let them do that (about a neighbour abusing my m) but she only mentioned it once and seemed indignant (?) or sloughed it off that my m mentioned it. I just feel like a normal reaction would be to talk about it, maybe she did with her, I don't know. Maybe she just didn't know or maybe she did the same with me? In the report it said that she stepped up spectacularly with me, taking me to the child psychologist, maybe this was guilt over my m, or that she did care and it was just a dramatic incident in my childhood?

I also found a diaries and journals. One from when I was around 11/12 which sort of sounded similar to how I behave now. That I am open and sensitive around people until they reject me. The reports also mentioned that my gm had a fear of rejection. Another was a letter that I wrote to my m in my early 20s that was really open and just said I understand if you had it difficult growing up and if a lot of things happened that I didn't even know about and that I'm sorry if I hurt her by leaving etc. The difficult thing that I think I knew was that that letter wouldn't have had any effect on the distance between us, her treatment of me. Maybe it was something that I needed to keep in my heart and keep trying to bridge, or would have I been trying to take on her stuff and receive the same treatment? I also saw some old photos of my mom when she about 4/5 and the look in her eye was quite haunting. She seemed at that age, quite sad and lost and not sure what to do. I don't know how to describe it, it just really affected me.

Hope everyone else has made it through their holiday.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 27, 2021, 03:23:50 PM
 :hug:

I'm sorry you are going through this, and the uncertainty is really really hard to deal with. Just keep working through the feelings that come up, it's all we can do, right?

Your grandfather could just be on edge because what you discovered is uncomfortable and he doesn't know how to react. But it could also mean something else. Just go with how you feel, listen to it and believe it cause that will lead to something else.

I understand what you mean about the photos. I've had the same experience looking even at baby photos of my mom. Especially but not only because in her final years she looked so much like those baby photos, in particular what I interpret as an icy vacant stare. Those photos arrest my heart.

There's so much to process Dolly.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 27, 2021, 03:41:49 PM
Thanks Armee  :hug: she just looks so confused and it breaks my heart. No child should ever have to feel like that. I didn't tell my gf what I found in the medical records. After the jewellery thing and the bracelet, I don't think there would be much understanding. My defences are up big time right now.

I remember him being adamant over having to pay $20 for fees when I sent them some money for an estate lawyer, and why should he have to pay it etc etc, when I kind of dismissed it as it's just $20 and that I was going through a difficult time at work. It's $20 I would have paid it no problem. It was just very surprising that that's all that mattered and there was no, "Oh really? What's happening at work right now? Ok get it to me when you can, I just noticed it and it would be nice since we're on a pension etc." I had a chat with their friend/housecleaner and she said that she didn't know if they were going to survive after my gm passed away given how difficult he can be. So, I'm glad I'm not the only one right now. There is just so much drama and stress with my family.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 28, 2021, 07:06:03 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I just wanted to send you a hug,  :hug: 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 02, 2022, 06:29:14 PM
Thank you Hope  :hug:

My mind feels quite paper thin right now. Seeing aunt was not the support I had hoped for. Explaining my gm and gf's behaviour was met with well they're from a different generation where things were tough. Yes but just because peoples' lives were difficult doesn't mean they can treat us any way they want. Talking of sa on the phone and she started talking about my "mom's bf's" (there were two before my sf). There is a competitiveness in my family that is still evident. I let it go and just tried to enjoy the other activities with them. This is not something I can discuss.

I think I'm just blocking stuff out until I can talk with t again in January.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 03, 2022, 04:38:47 AM
Dolly, it sounds like there is a lot to process.  I hope that you are able to find some ease until you are in a space to process. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 03, 2022, 04:45:18 AM
Waiting for T to mentally deal with this stuff is probably wise. I wish I had some helpful tip for you. The uncertainty is super super hard. Knowing and not knowing. It makes it hard to have empathy for yourself.

I'm sorry your aunt seems to have added confusion and fear rather than having supported empathized.

We'll be here for you as you journey into folding this information into your efforts to heal.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 03, 2022, 05:54:35 PM
Thank you rainy & Armee - I wish there was some helpful tip too but also know that I sometimes we have to wade through the soup. Well, mud.

It's so difficult talking to one side of the family about the other and going into the detail of their behaviour when they see them a certain way. They were always "happy go lucky" and other facets of their behaviour are harder to imagine I think? Saw another cousin and they are more reasonable/open about behaviour but they also know my gf in another way. Having to explain what was happening left me feeling open and vulnerable, kind of spaced out. Tho they did seem sympathetic that gf's behaviour was weird.

Going back to see gf and finish helping at house but have decided not to stay and am staying at hotel.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 03, 2022, 06:24:07 PM
I'm proud of you for staying in a hotel Dolly. And if at any point it feels damaging to your mental health to even be there helping, you can leave, OK? You don't have to stay. You can simply say you are feeling unwell and go.

It's very very hard to talk to people about these types of things. There are so many gaps and people want to brush things under the rug thinking that is the most helpful thing to do.  :hug: I think the fact you are trying to talk to relatives about this shows so much strength and self assurance. If you don't mind me saying, it's helpful for me to see you do it because my instinct is the opposite and to destroy myself for being so _________.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 05, 2022, 05:07:51 PM
Thank you Armee   :hug: I think I know the feeling that you're talking about, the one that just wants to destroy your existence; that anything you say puts you into a "shame place." I only mentioned it to my aunt, I haven't mentioned SA to anyone else except t. I don't know if the family is talking behind my back about this, maybe, probably. I'm guessing when the topic touched on false memory (my cousin brought it up tho not sure if it was in relation to her - but I think I will ask her and see), it made me space out, like I wasn't being believed or just felt exposed and vulnerable.

I'm falling into automatic I think, the programming that these are things I'm supposed to do/to be helpful. Like this was the narrative, but it doesn't feel like the narrative anymore. That I don't want to take on all the garbage anymore. I went back to help clean out my gm's stuff yesterday but just didn't feel like being there. I don't think I was grounded. Maybe the idea of myself as just being helpful is not fitting anymore. Gf was happy that I was there I think, but I wasn't happy. I brought up the necklace and just said you know you can wear the ring around it and you don't have to wear that expensive gold piece (that you took out of the jewellery that was meant for me and have repeated to the cleaner because she told me how expensive it is). There was no reaction from him about this, just that he wears it everyday.

My brother also called my gf the other day. Apparently, my sf has now told him that he won't be receiving any inheritance like he did with me. So, after a couple years of avoiding my gf, he is calling now that he might be cut off. My gf immediately called the lawyer, the one I was paying 475/hour for. When he told me that, I said who's paying for it, I'm not paying for it. My gf said he'll pay for it despite having a go at me for not paying him 20 and saying he why should he pay he's only doing it for me. My brother has come around and shown his true colours now that my sf is threatening him and my gf will bend over backwards for him.

Supposed to go and spread my gm's ashes today with my gf but I don't think I'm going to do it. I have two days left here and I just want to do chill, nice things for me. I don't know what to think right now - there's part as my family suggested that he's depressed because of the death, alone and isolated because of covid and becoming paranoid. The other part is seeing quick temper and manipulative behaviour.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 06, 2022, 02:49:29 AM
Dolly, you are encountering a lot and I admire how you are managing. 

Quote from: dollyvee on January 05, 2022, 05:07:51 PM
I'm falling into automatic I think, the programming that these are things I'm supposed to do/to be helpful. Like this was the narrative, but it doesn't feel like the narrative anymore. That I don't want to take on all the garbage anymore.

This really resonated with me and I have been thinking a lot about the narrative of my life.  I hope you find a way to work in your own wording and experience into the narrative you are creating. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on January 07, 2022, 02:17:22 PM
HI Dolly,  sending some positive vibes your way,  sounds like you have so much to deal with right now,   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 07, 2022, 07:30:25 PM
Thanks rainy - I realized today that I feel like I'm doing all these things with understanding, trying to be self aware, to grow, to be a better person and it feels like my family dynamic is so far from even recognizing some of those things.

Thank you Larry  :hug: I was jet lagged and forget to say this yesterday but I appreciate you stopping by

I've got back home today and feel like I've just run into a brick wall and seen how things actually are. I went home with the intention of helping clean up, be understanding, do some of the things that might be helpful to my gf and feel like none of that was reciprocated, no mutual understanding.

It's just been really difficult. I sat down and had a conversation with him that I didn't expect or want anything if he were to pass away. I'm positive he's said that I would be the beneficiary of the will and during the conversation he said that his nephew would be executor, that he's already told him, and the estate would go between us. I didn't want or expect anything, and am shocked that he didn't have the same conversation with me as with his nephew. He also said again that "he's not trying to hide anything" from me which I found infuriating because I don't feel like I'm being told the whole truth. The feelings I had that there was something amiss all along does seem to be coming out.

I asked him if he read my gm's medical records. He said maybe a while ago and then no and when I mentioned the psychologist and psychiatrist he said no he didn't remember that. Maybe he doesn't want to talk about it but I'm getting off vibes.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 08, 2022, 08:56:05 AM
Woke up in the night with the thought that everything I've done now with my life or did, has been through this my family/gm mother had it really hard narrative and I have to succeed for them/her (and that there would be love for me at the end of it?) but the real narrative is my family didn't care/relate to the things I was going through/had to go through; as long as it fit within their idea of life that was fine.

It doesn't matter to my gf that I wanted to help, wanted him to feel good, was ready to pay for a part time home care nurse etc...that they were/are ripping me off essentially. That the value of a gold chain matters more than my gm saying it was for me and how I might feel about if he took it, or even the thought of asking.

I guess this is really difficult to see but I'm also thankful for running into that brick wall and making it clear to me.
_________

I also wrote to my cousin about what she said about memories and false memories of something happening and she said she thinks something might have happened to her but her "memory isn't that good." I told her that I was there for her and false memory is a very "debated" topic, as well as showing her some of the experts (Dan P. Brown). My cousin is a very nice, strong person. She's in a long term relationship and just living her life. I fully understand if it's not something she wants to explore. It just hit home at how difficult what everyone on this forum is going through and how much courage it takes to do what everyone here is doing. And how many more people there are out there who still struggle even without knowing what it is that's going on.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on January 08, 2022, 11:52:53 AM
Dear Dollyvee,
I wanted to send you a hug  :hug:  That is heavy realisations to have considered last night, and you mentioned a 'hard narrative' and a 'real narrative' and I sensed some painful emotions there.  I wanted to just say that I see your courage in what you write, and I want to say more, but can't think of the right words to express what I'd like to say.

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 09, 2022, 09:01:09 AM
Thank you Hope I can see that it is very strong language...I don't think it's been so apparent before. There was always the feeling that I had to help out, that some part of me saw all that she/they had given me and wanted to give back. After seeing the psychologist's reports I can see that maybe I'd been conditioned to feel that way from a young age, to make her feel better and that it was my responsibility.

The lawyers have already come back to me after my gf's call. The positive thing is that what my sf was trying to do is quite damning and illustrates his snakey behaviour, so they've sent a cease and desist. I feel inclined to walk away from it all and let them fight it out, that I don't want to be a part of this anymore or have any dealing with them. I don't trust my brother to not change his mind if my sf were to take him back once he receives the letter from the lawyer.

It's interesting as well that I feel so strongly about being taken advantage of at work, that I need to be paid correctly etc. It's something that really bothers me and can see the connection to behaviour in my family.

Just trying to stay present with this stuff right now. I feel like I want to accomplish more being back at home. My neighbour still sucks but also feeling like I don't have to take that on right now. That I can only engage with the negativity if I let it get to me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 11, 2022, 10:03:37 AM
Thinking about conversation with my gf and asking him if he read the reports and what happened to my gm and what happened to me. Maybe he read them and that's why he was different with me. But why wouldn't he mention it? I guess it's a lot to talk about but even just saying I'm sorry that happened? Even if my sa "vibes" are off, again, it's a lack of support.

Read through some articles yesterday about memory, sa etc and one mentioned that there's a chance of feeling less protected around people, being vulnerable to people. It's funny that this is how I always feel around people, that I'm open to their energy. Maybe it's heightened sensitivity, and I always thought it was due to my m and sf, but maybe it's something else. It's interesting how I immediately shut down watching the Sex & Goop doc as well. There's more to say about growing up and and things.

Anyways, I was at the little tree yesterday and felt an overwhelm of sadness come up, that all this stuff has been bubbling under the surface for the past few weeks and I've been keeping a lid on it. I guess one positive is with these emotions I usually turn them back on myself and think there is something wrong with me, that it's me. I don't feel that as much this time...maybe this is the new narrative I'm trying to create the one where I don't take it all on. But how to feel this stuff and not do that?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 11, 2022, 12:48:09 PM
Random and mildly upsetting is that my gf sent a photo of his nephew's house and Christmas lights (which he'd already showed me). He's also asked if I got home ok via text. I think on the outside, most people would see a lonely, old man looking for conversation. However, in light of the recent trip back and events, behaviour etc it feels a lot different to me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 11, 2022, 02:30:24 PM
 :hug:

Trust how you feel about the communication. Gaslighting makes us feel like we are crazy. You feel that way for a reason and based on a pattern.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 11, 2022, 03:13:09 PM
Dolly, I appreciate what you are sharing here as it is giving me some ways to consider my experience.  I am sad for the hurt and confusion you feel and I hope it yields something useful.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 11, 2022, 09:49:51 PM
Thanks Armee I think you hit the nail on the head - it's gaslighting  :hug:

Thank you rainy - I'm glad you're relating to this. It's pretty great that there are others out there. I remember going through this stuff before and feeling like I was alone with it. I know how hard it is to do that.

I remember mentioning to t a while ago that I feel like my gf is undermining me about my achievements, that it somehow bothers him that I'm doing well on my own. I saw it again when we were driving together in the car like he was trying to get at me, or be superior somehow. At least that's how I perceived it. I can see his recent behaviour as a lack of consideration as well, and whatever the motive or whatever happened, that's the bottom line I think and it's not good for me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on January 19, 2022, 04:44:37 AM
 :sunny:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 19, 2022, 01:30:28 PM
Thank you Larry - good to see that you're doing well :sunny:

Feeling a bit out of it. My sleep schedule has been very off since I got back, but sometimes I have really bad jet lag and have been in a weird cycle of getting maybe 4/5 hours of sleep a night. Was feeling pretty good when I came back about getting things done (cleaning up and all the little things around the house that I have been putting off) and then I went back to work and now feel like garbage.

I hate being around people at work. It's so hard to actually be open to the nice ones and not shut down because they are friends with the two faced bullies etc or maybe someone is nice and I can be open but there is "competitiveness" or negativity coming from someone else. It's incredible how much this stuff shuts me down. I guess that's what it's meant to do and I end up feeling like I hate myself at the end of the day yet I'm around all these "nice" people (or everyone is being so nice to eachother but it doesn't feel that way under the surface).

I had someone come this morning to administer a covid test for work and they asked to use my bathroom. I'm realizing how much I haven't been picking up after myself. I don't think it's squalor, but I need to mop the floors and vacuum. There are a lot of dust bunnies, but I just get into this mind space where I shut down. I do feel like it's connected to people "keeping me down." Is this stuff I've taken on from my gm or learned?

Went on a date with someone last weekend. Maybe I'm distracting myself or not dealing with other stuff, but we had a lot in common and he's nice and cute. We had a good time and talked for a few hours, we're going to meet up again. I left early-ish because I knew I would get tired around 9/10 and came home and went to bed, woke up around 1am for a few hours and went back to bed. The next day I couldn't stay awake and kept falling back asleep. Maybe it was the alcohol (only had two drinks though) or maybe it was sort of food poisoning (had a dodgy stomach a couple days later). I had been wondering too if maybe I was dissociating. He texted that night and again the next day and maybe a part of me felt like it was too much. I don't think he was being pushy, just interested, but perhaps a part could be freaking out. If I'm being honest, I think a part of me goes into being "fake nice" like I have to do these things like text back and be social, flirt etc, but another part doesn't want to. Then another part thinks maybe I'm just not into him.

Not great stuff, I think the little things are building up and I need to get it out.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 19, 2022, 02:07:08 PM
It's hard to trust what we think and like and don't like after a lifetime of being gaslighted. It's hard to know which voice to listen to. I'm gathering slowly that that is what our emotions and underlying body sensations are for. Good luck figuring out how you are feeling about this date!

And I hate fake nice.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 20, 2022, 01:12:25 AM
Thank you Armee. What context are you referring to about hating fake nice? I don't think I understand what you mean
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 20, 2022, 01:33:47 AM
How you talked about people at work being "nice" butbit not seeming that way under the surface. That felt like how I think of as "fake nice" and I find it very unsettling and hard because you don't feel like they're being nice but on the surface they behave nice so you feel a little guilty and can't explain why it feels so bad.

How did you mean it? I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth.  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 20, 2022, 07:02:25 PM
Thanks Armee  :hug: because I described myself as sort of feeling "fake nice, I thought that was directed at me, or that comment about my feelings
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 20, 2022, 08:19:21 PM
Oh gosh no!!! I'm so sorry for not being more clear. I need to take time to be more precise on what I write and say. You are a sweet and kind person.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 20, 2022, 10:26:47 PM
Dolly, I am resonating with what you wrote about feeling off as well as navigating work and personal relationships.  I don't have any insights.  I wanted to stop by to say I am here too trying to figure this all out and I hope you find ways to feel ease. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 23, 2022, 06:57:27 PM
Thank you Armee - no need to be more clear. I don't think it was anything you did. Sometimes things get lost in text differently than in conversation etc. It just happens and thank you again for clarifying. I think I'm a bit hypervigilant at this time too.

Thank you rainy. It's hard to be in work situations where you spend so much time and yet also feel so unsafe because of standards/lack of policies to protect people etc.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on January 24, 2022, 04:27:24 AM
hi dolly,   i am sorry i haven't been here to offer much support,    i really hope tomorrow is a great day for you !
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 24, 2022, 02:04:36 PM
Thanks for stopping by Larry - it's ok we're all here doing what we can and it's appreciated  :hug:

Good chat with t this weekend who has just come back from winter break. I mentioned the necklace stuff and think she had the same reaction I did. So relieved that I wasn't hallucinating this stuff, or that it would be minimized and I'm just "over sensitive." She also likened it to a Shakespearean play which is a bit funny but also highlights how out there my family is I think and how alone I feel sometimes dealing with their stuff.

Went into anxious mode on with the new date and didn't have a great result. I think he might be avoidant and I slipped into trying to connect without realizing what was going on. With all the other stuff that's running in the background, I don't think I'm as self aware right now. Otherwise I would like to think I would have brought it up and felt a little less blindsided than I do now. Just frustrating that it's another "learning experience," I feel so tired of those.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 24, 2022, 08:57:08 PM
Dolly, I see you working through a lot and it is difficult to build relationships on a good day and especially when we are puzzling out a lot.  I hope that you find some ease. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 25, 2022, 09:17:50 AM
Thanks rainy  :hug:

It's becoming more clear about what was going on. I was pretty up front about looking for emotional availability, communication, emotional awareness. He's now telling me that he's basically emotionally unavailable. I understand I'm dodging a bullet but I also feel like it was selfish on his part to not be more clear about something he wasn't able to give in the beginning and to go through weeks of texting/dates etc only to have him completely shut down and walk away.

I never feel quite clear about what the rules of dating are when I had so much gaslighting/questioning myself growing up. Am I being unfair, not giving enough, expecting too much etc. So, I end up doing those things and being in this place, angry at feeling like I'm being taken advantage of. Although, I don't think it's all me this time though I could have stepped back instead of trying to make that connection. I think when the opportunity to step back comes up I feel all the stuff I felt growing up and that's something I still need to face. I just feel like it would be too intense to press someone in the beginning about those things. I always feel like I have to be light, airy, no stress, fun etc.

-----
I also cleaned my flat and feel so much better that things are clean and tidy. I'm not sure why they got so bad. Maybe it was just a reflection of how I was feeling about myself.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 26, 2022, 06:23:03 AM
Dating sounds so exhausting and disappointing most of the time.

Cut yourself lots of slack about house stuff! You've had a ton to deal with travelling to your GF to help and all the information that came up.  :grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 26, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
Thanks for your words Armee  :grouphug: I know it might seem minute these two things on the one hand but do think they relate to some deeper stuff that's going on. Dating connects to how I feel about myself I think, and maybe the house stuff as well. I think it points to something stopping me from taking care of myself, maybe questioning my abilities to get things done.

***Poss Tw***

It came up the other day while I was cleaning how my stepfather used to. make me clean and do these big tasks for zero allowance. I guess this fits into a generational thing of kids maybe expected to do more in "the olden days" but I don't know. I think he enjoyed making me do things on ridiculous terms that he knew he could get away with (I was 7 and had no idea what was fair or how to negotiate a fair wage and my mom definitely wouldn't intervene). I was expected to rake a whole yard of leaves for like a dollar or clean out his extremely dirty truck for a dollar a week. When I moved in with my dad, he gave me a five dollar a week allowance and I think another five dollars for mowing the lawn. I felt like it was the most amazing place but I was just dealing with someone who was fair.

When I moved in with my gm and gf, I was also expected to clean but my gm was basically a hoarder and it felt like I was taking on all this responsibility by doing it. I wanted to help them out but at the same time it was so much time and effort that I didn't feel was fair to me to put in.

It's just a funny thing because I've never been afraid of hard work. I worked for my gf (the other one) mowing lawns, painting, trimming hedges etc but he always treated me fairly as well. I don't know why it happens that I procrastinate on things that I have to do. I think everyone does it to an extent but it also feels as if it's tied to other things.

***end tw***

I realized there were some little red flags I didn't pick up on before. He mentioned abs, not that I care about abs, but I think he was trying to impress me, and he clearly didn't have abs. What kind of slipped by was that he's probably more insecure than he was letting on and it's just something really superficial which I don't care about - it's more how I feel around someone that's important to me. I guess maybe that's why I didn't pick up on it because we had a lot of other things in common. I'm wondering if I've gotten into this situation so that I can just confirm how bad I feel about myself (with all that's going on). It's a reflection of it must be me, or I'm not worthy of a good, supportive relationship.

I was in the bath last night and going over the feelings that were coming up on my walk. I think I felt fearful, kind of on edge, not settled as I was out last night. I tried to get those feelings to step back and to have Self come in. The first thing that came up was my gm and how I think I always went to her when I felt like this/ needed soothing. It felt overwhelming to have Self there and to be doing it instead. I've definitely felt this before, that connecting to myself feels overwhelming and usually brings up tears. I guess there are parts that need to be heard rn.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 26, 2022, 03:03:19 PM
These things do not seem minute, at all Dolly. They are very big.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 28, 2022, 09:27:55 AM
Thank you Armee - these are things to work out I think.

I can see how I like the superficiality in relationships I think, or when getting to know someone. It stays away from the anxiety I too feel when getting closer to someone. In the past, I think I stayed in this mode and would wait and see if they were "there for me," but would also do it in a way where I was giving up my own needs because I didn't want them to leave, or not like me. If they didn't like me it would bring up all the feelings of rejection from my mom and how felt about myself. I guess I also didn't know how to talk about my family or it was just the cause of so much anxiety that I just felt better not going there.

Also, am seeing how I was conditioned to trust people that didn't have my best interests at heart or had selfish intentions towards me; that I had to ignore the inner voice inside for the illusion. This is a lot more clear after my recent trip home and what I witnessed there, that this illusion was shaped by my gm and how she wanted to see the world for survival, and that a part of me was dependent on her for survival (or was at a very important development time), so I believed it too. I think I've said this before but now is becoming more clear how it "feels" and how this plays out in relationships etc.

A song came up in my playlist yesterday about a woman who just wanted to live life and walk at night and see the stars, but in order to be safe she had to carry a knife. I felt that a lot of women feel how I feel, walking at night. I think the fear something we grow up with and is always there. I can understand with the things that have come up lately how I'm feeling more fearful and unsettled more than usual.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 28, 2022, 08:56:27 PM
I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist. I really felt that. That having to explain my family's behaviour and I'm always having to over explain it, or they dismiss it like he's an old man etc. They don't know what to do with people who behave like that and it's really alienating.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on January 29, 2022, 02:49:39 AM
Dolly, your reflection about being conditioned to trust those who didn't have your best interests and being taught to disregard your experience really resonates with me as I am having a similar realization.  I was just reflecting to myself that I wonder how my experience will change if I actually listen to that voice saying "Something isn't right."  I'm not sure what I would do but perhaps believing myself first would be a good first step.  I hope that you find your way with this too.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 29, 2022, 08:58:16 AM
Thanks rainy  :hug: It's a tough one as behind the blind trust is the pain I had as a kid who wanted to trust those people in the first place because she/I thought it/they would help her to do it. I think I've been slowly coming to realize that wait, it's not other peoples' responsibility to help/take on that pain (even though it was huge and what happened was really unfair for a child etc), which is what I guess I was expecting deep down. So, I'm not trusting people out of a survival "necessity" which is good. I think I've realized that taking on this pain has given me agency and my life back. I

agree that it hard to listen to the voice that says "something isn't right,"especially before it goes really wrong, because of all the times I was told I'm overreacting, not right, or they knew better. I think it's also tough because I feel like I've done a lot of self awareness/feeling work which a lot/(most?) people haven't done, and would maybe point out things that they wouldn't recognize and then I would be in a conflict with them about what was going on, or back to caretaking? I don't know.

It's hard for me to cut situations like this off. I usually feel like there's something I could have done etc or that maybe I did wrong. So, I think I've been carrying this situation around in my mind for a couple days. I shared it with a couple friends and they said they were sorry I had to go through that/what is wrong with people etc. So, I didn't feel completely "out there." But I really felt or realized, that it's not my stuff to change/take on/carry/be responsible for etc and I'm not a bad person for not doing that. I communicated from the beginning what I was about/needed and they chose to ignore/not address/be up front with who they were or say what they needed. This is someone else's stuff that they need to step up and deal with. I was happy to be there with them while they did that, communicated that, and there's nothing else I can do. It felt like old stuff where I was being used, maybe that's why it stung so much, but like with my mom, I wasn't a bad person for needing these things or giving their stuff back to them. Anyways, it wasn't something that was good for me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Blueberry on January 29, 2022, 01:30:11 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on January 28, 2022, 08:56:27 PM
I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist. I really felt that. That having to explain my family's behaviour and I'm always having to over explain it, or they dismiss it like he's an old man etc. They don't know what to do with people who behave like that and it's really alienating.

dollyvee, this caught my eye because it sounds exactly what I went through with the two ex-friends I've been detaching from and writing about on and off for months. Even when I over-explained, they still dismissed in their heads. It wasn't till 2021 that they dismissed in open words and/or actions.

Standing with you.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 29, 2022, 04:00:27 PM
Dolly I think you're showing so much insight and maturity in what you are saying about taking on our own pain, not being responsible for other people's pain, and recognizing that feeling of being used. When you were a kid, your caretakers should have taken on your pain and helped you with it but you didn't have anyone who could do that for you. That should have happened and that was their job. You lost out on that. Instead, your caretakers used you to try to take on their own emotional pains and fill their emotional and psychological holes. You never should have been used like that, Dolly, not by your mom, not by your grandma, and not by the person who abused you in other ways your memory isn't open to yet.

But here you have grown to the point of being able to take ownership for your stuff as an adult, and to expect other adults to do the same. That is very mature. I'm sorry you did not get the same level of maturity back from the other person. That is on them.

And I agree it is very very difficult to get people to understand narcissistic abuse because each example is so sly and difficult to grasp without seeing and knowing the whole pattern. It took years with my therapist to be able to explain enough of the pieces for him to get it even; with friends it really comes down to them being able to trust me that it is what I say it is, rather than down to my ability to explain it so they understand. (In my case Borderline Personality Disorder abuse, rather than narcissism).

I'm going to post a link to a podcast that did a really good job talking about narcissistic abuse. It's geared toward therapists and there are a couple points where the speaker talks about how to pick up on the abuse under a story that might seem like not a big deal. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 30, 2022, 10:09:11 AM
Thank you Blueberry - I'm sorry that happened to you too  :hug: it's a big one and something I've noticed in different people over the years and am coming to see how this is all connected. I think, I hope. It happened in the past where ppl just said about my gm, oh she just loves you. I think it led me to then take it on and think, again, that it must be me and how was I unlike everyone else that I couldn't see her love/accept it. I think I felt a lot of anger and frustration at myself and the situation too. I think it's probably damaging (?) to us that ppl want to believe the easy/optimistic/superficial option. We have to go through the denial of our reality again and be alienated from friends as well as "family." If I stand up for my reality, then I am alienated, and if I accept the reality I'm given, then I'm denying myself. Unfortunately, because my family was so lacking in support, I looked to friends and the outside to find it, so it was really hard when things like this happened.

Thank you Armee - I appreciate the support  :hug: I didn't understand it for a long time. Going home, finding those papers, and seeing peoples' behaviour for what it is/was without my gm's illusion/wants and my love for her affecting me has helped me to put it into context. I could never just let go before, because I cared and I wanted to make it work. I cared for my gm and wanted her to get better etc. There was a lot that was hidden from me and a lot that I couldn't voice because I had to make other people happy. I'm sorry that you had to go through that experience of feeling not believed as well, or the struggle/process of being believed for what happened to you. I'm really thankful to have this forum where other people "get it."

This is a bit of a tangent, but I've thought about the "friend" from above over the years. When we met I thought she was someone like me who had been through a lot but was doing the work and coming out the other side, trying to create healthier patterns, self-awareness etc. She ended up marrying a nice doctor, having cute kids etc. This was something I wanted for myself too, but I don't think I was envious, just happy for her. I was supportive of her business and suggested ways that maybe she could better get herself out there, etc. I wanted to kind of talk about what I was going through and emdr since she had tried it. I was trying to sort myself out but maybe I was still in an awkward place? I overlooked, or didn't acknowledge how hurtful and dismissive some of her comments were. We would get dinner once in a while and I felt like I was improving and adjusting but I also had to keep the friendship going. I felt like I didn't fit into this "new world" she was living in. She lived in a much nicer (aka very expensive) neighbourhood (which they were able to do because he had a good family that planned for his future and they got lucky getting the house just before the area took off) and all the friends she posted about were from this area/world even though she came from the same place I did. She stopped returning my messages to hang out and I felt really hurt by that. I felt I was curated and picked over because of who I was, which was very much like her, except I didn't marry the doctor or live in that area. Maybe listening to what I was going through triggered her and what she was building. I just felt it was very fake and insincere. Anyways, I struggled a lot with that encounter over the years and not feeling good enough. I thought it was something about the way I looked, where I came from, how smart I was etc that it was me. Again, that's her stuff, but honestly the adult me sees/feels a lot of people would behave the same way. Do I fault her for looking out for her family? But then what can be so bad/wrong about me that you can't relate?

Spoke with t about my feeling that I preferred the "superficiality" and she said that everyone does. I feel like it's different though, that when people don't understand the things I (we) have gone through, it becomes the safe option because the real is too real for a lot (I feel most) people. Their reality doesn't confirm that people like this exist, so it's safer for me to just be superficial. Even t brought up a story where I related something and she had said how my gm was from a different generation and I called her up on it. She admitted that it wasn't how t's were supposed to approach things. I think maybe this superficial stuff is learned over time and conditioned from a young age when things were dismissed, not addressed etc. So, I struggle with how do I stay true to myself and still relate, or find ways of relating, to other people? I think in the past I would isolate and not believe people like this existed, who maybe didn't go through the same things as me, but were open and strong enough to listen. The other option was to stay in the "superficial" and just not acknowledge these things, or my reality/feelings etc which I think is what my family wanted. I don't have any answers for this, just things that are coming up.

It took a lot of work to get to the point where I could be that mature person (as Armee called it) and say that's his stuff. I went back to a lot of people who didn't treat me great thinking that I had to make it work, or that them rejecting me said something about me. I realized a year or so ago that I will eventually have to talk about cptsd and how being close to people makes me feel when I'm getting to know them. It was something I didn't even acknowledge, but think felt like it was something I had to hide. I also realized what my needs were regarding communication/emotional availability which is why I put it out there at the beginning. It's not on me that he chose to ignore it and not say anything about it. I think I also realized that I'm not asking for anything excessive or unrealistic and was willing to talk about his needs etc.

Long post but it's Sunday  ;D and I'm working some stuff out.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 01, 2022, 03:59:19 PM
It came up with t the other day about how people approach relationships differently; that I was willing to consider if my actions would affect someone, it didn't mean that that's how they thought. The same with my gm, that her way of loving me wasn't the same way as I loved her. Looking back with friends, romantic partnerships, family, I went in with an idea/expectation that they cared/would react the same way I would. I guess this is a very childlike view and one that still comes up at times. What keeps this there, going back to that way of thinking? That I don't want to see how people can actually be because it reminds me of how I felt at a time? Also, that I wasn't actually allowed to see that reality growing up and had to believe something else; that my grandmother's love was different from mine. But then I'm left with, if she loved me how could she behave in the ways she did knowing how I felt? Same with friends, romantic interests etc. I guess these are different because I chose relationships with these people.

I guess the adult part is putting boundaries in place so people don't "get to do anything to me." That I can control how I let people treat me. I think there's a part that's working this out, aligning how I would care for someone with I have to blindly trust (or just believe) that they'll treat me in the same way back. I think there's still a gap there that questions myself and what I'm doing. It also feels like a blank canvas, that I don't know how it would look to behave that way. Maybe it's because I don't feel entitled to it yet?

I don't know if this makes much sense, still working some things out.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CactusFlower on February 01, 2022, 04:42:33 PM
I think (I could be wrong) that it's perfectly normal, especially as a child with not as much experience yet, to think people love the same way we do. The reality is not something we're actively taught. Kind of like that popular stuff about "love languages" where someone might feel doing things for someone is love, and another person needs to actually hear it said. (Which is very simplistic in my opinion) It's only through actually experiencing it that we learn not everyone loves the same way. But abuse is not love, regardless of the type. I resonated with an earlier statement on here of "I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist." Mainly because it really points out how normalized that kind of behavior is in modern societies. "Oh, they're just being x..." When that shouldn't be "just" anything.  I hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 02, 2022, 08:48:21 AM
Thank you Cactusflower for your comment. I agree and am glad that resonated with you.

For better or worse I ended up watching the Bill Cosby We Need To Talk About Cosby documentary and it really highlighted how behaviour is normalized and how people use their image and manipulate their image to get away with something. Despite all those women coming forward, all the evidence against him, people are still wrestling with how he presented himself vs how he actually treated those women. A lot of them don't want to believe that he did those things. It was hard to watch all those women who stayed silent for years, thinking or believing that they had done something wrong (in some cases) and just to deal with it on their own because they felt like they wouldn't be believed  :grouphug:

This feeling that I'm trying to work out, a feeling of how I love and approach relationships, it feels like a fog. It's like working out what was an illusion and what wasn't. Even now, it's still so hard to say, as Cactusflower said, that it was abuse. I don't know how to describe it but it's like I can physically feel it this time, or am maybe more detached from wanting/pursuing (that it's something I have to do) the illusion that there's more space for recognizing what it was/is.

The photos I saw of my great gf when I was back and from what I know about him being "very strict" and "liking to drink," as well as the way my great gm looked at him, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a pattern repeating itself with my gm. That she had "love eyes" for my gf or step gf or whoever, and overlooked the feelings (safety) of the children involved because that's what happened to her. When I write it down, it sounds like abuse but when I thought about the situation in my head, I was thinking it's hard to see what she did as abuse. I guess because of my feelings for her. T and I have also been talking about religion and I'm sure the idea has come from somewhere what "good" children are supposed to be like. (The Way Down doc was also pretty mind blowing in how children are still treated).


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 04, 2022, 10:08:42 AM
Big chat with the lawyer yesterday about my m's estate and going forward. Had to bring up gf as he was going to be interim executor and recent events. I guess the gist of it was that everyone on my family is out for money and I don't feel like anyone has a moral compass or is involved who cares enough about me that I could trust them, and do I want to continue in this situation against someone like my sf who is a reprehensible person. V. Difficult to discuss this with strangers. Felt like I was trying to justify my actions and also I guess the feeling under it was I wouldn't be believed (maybe that I don't matter). Feel like I've stepped back a bit from this and seen how part of me was tied up in the fight because maybe that's the part that had to fight for survival growing up. But now how much of myself can I put into something going into court where they might turn around and just side with him (the reprehensible person) because that's the way the law works? I guess I would have seen it as a defeat before to walk away but I don't know if I see it that way right now.

Had a dream the other night about a romantic interest from the past who I thought there was something with. I approached him to take it further and he rejected me and just realizing how much I pushed it down. It's definitely always been an issue that space of unknowing at the beginning of a relationship. I guess it's time to reflect on that and learn to sit with it more, which I think I have, but there's more work to do maybe.

Have started being serious about going back and training since covid "ended," or life has sort of resumed. I notice how much of me is tied up in thinking about my body etc not being in a "good place" and examining that.  I think a lot of it is pressure around what other people expect/what other people have said to me/how other people behave etc. it's a weird battle. I know what I'm capable of and that in the past I've dropped 6-7kgs properly in two months through diet and training. Though again, it isn't weight that matters as I've found out it's bf %. I put those 6-7kgs back on as muscle but a number on the scale is a very hard mindset to get out of.  It gave me confidence to step aside a bit from how I've always viewed my body (as not good enough, not this, not that, something out of my control and would therefore try to control it). Though I don't think those things were fully resolved. I guess there's still vanity there but maybe it's more about actually feeling good. I'm trying to come back to training with that mindset like I can do this, but also deal with eating better and see that food actually nurtures you. I can eat a lot (1900 cals is a lot but what I need through body recomposition) and I'm not a bad person for it. Maybe my sf's voice is still in the back of my head somewhere that told me I was fat as a child and made me run. (I also connected the dots the other day that maybe this is why I sort of hate running deep down). Maybe dealing with health and fitness in this way will also rewire that thinking and that voice. I also notice a lot of competitiveness at the gym I go to which doesn't make rewiring that voice easy.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 06, 2022, 11:40:48 AM
After talk with lawyer was on my walk and some feelings came up. Maybe it was my inner critic (?) I don't know, but thought of myself dealing with this stuff and how pathetic (?) I must look or be to not have anyone around me to support me. I don't know how describe it, I don't think it felt like my voice being hard on myself (you must look etc) but coming from somewhere else. I did feel aloneness coming up, also memories or reactions of my peers growing up (?) when I felt unaccepted or the things I was doing weren't good enough. Just a feeling of not being able to relate to people. At times like that in the past my gm would be there and that she loved me which was an illusion.  I was left with the feeling that I just had to keep doing what I was doing, that I wasn't accepted by other people but it would eventually come. It wasn't that the situation itself was maybe wrong. I don't know if this is how the illusion is still coming up in my life?

Guy at the gym yesterday who I noticed before and thought maybe there was a little mutual something. I notice that guys seem to expect jealousy between women and particularly if one women looks a certain way (or behaves a certain way - maybe more helpless/vulnerable) and another doesn't. Anyways, I think other women are great but it's like he stepped in to protect this person from me. A lot of the time it's opposite I feel that because I don't buy into this dynamic they want to undermine me, or it bothers them that maybe I actually am a nice person. This happens often with guys. I've never been the person who has been allowed to be helpless like that and am capable of doing things for and taking care of myself. I guess I could never allow that trust to be there, or it takes a long time to come. I don't fault other people for being that way but at the same time I want to stay in my lane and not engage with those dynamics. It just brought up how seperate and alone i can feel when thing like that happen; that I'm alone again, other people didn't have to go through these things. Maybe I'm playing out some kind of dynamic again or maybe I'm just setting boundaries and saying this is who I am and can see the outcome differently - that it wasn't for me. I think my icr then comes up and says it never is for you etc.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on February 06, 2022, 02:11:42 PM
hi dolly,  i hope you have a good day today  ;)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on February 06, 2022, 02:58:12 PM
Dolly, I appreciate you sharing your experience with the thoughts of seemingly being on your own.  I often wonder if I seem like an odd being to other people too.  I judge myself but also often am ok with it being me in some situations.  I wish you well as you navigate discussion with the lawyer and develop a workout routine.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 07, 2022, 10:29:02 AM
Thank you Larry  :sunny: it was ok. Hope you are doing well.

Thank you for your comment rainy. I think I was pretty alone on that side of the family even though there was the illusion I wasn't. I don't really frame it in that way though that I'm an odd person to others. Perhaps in the past I did (?) but I think it's more abandoning/hurtful to me to be focused on what they think about me. From a feeling perspective, it's about feeling a lack of connection that is there in family and again in personal relationships which then I maybe feel like an outsider because of it. But am still working out exactly what this is.

Previously when I did an ifs journey, I had my mother show up as an inner critic. I'm wondering if that feeling of "outside myself" is coming from that.  The feelings that have been coming up have left me feeling more in my body, which never really felt "safe" before. There was always something wrong with feeling pleasure (from food etc). T related that that's because they're coming from a young place. Maybe that's why I feel overwhelmed/unsafe when they do come up.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on February 07, 2022, 08:24:00 PM
Dolly, I appreciate your clarification.  I also have a challenge with finding the words to
describe - I resonate with what you share.  I hope you find some ease of feeling in your body as well as feeling pleasure. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 08, 2022, 09:33:04 AM
Thanks rainy  :hug: I do try and make sure I am taking someone else's view into account and like to see things from someone else's POV. I was just in a place (and probably still am to a certain degree) of thinking there must be something wrong with me for so long.

Going over the scenario of "making friends" or getting to know someone last night in my head, and saw how unsafe I feel/felt doing that; that there's something in the back of my mind where I would just be worried about the future - what if we had fun and I drank or this happened, what would it have repercussions etc? It's a lot of fear/pressure there.

Also, thinking about how if I felt those things from a young age, it must mean that those conditions or illusions about love/care formed from an early age. How did I maintain "the way my heart works" from that age, to love or care for people in the way I do? From that age? I do feel like I have to be "in truth" or love from this place but it's not easy. Like Blueberry I feel like I am too being difficult for doing this when I am being true to myself.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 10, 2022, 03:30:38 PM
Going through accounts from last year and got a timeline of the last year at work and how stressful it was/is to deal with those things. It also made me reflect on Rainy's comment and things coming up around that. I guess at times I could rub people the wrong way. I also think that going through these traumas have given me more awareness (or sensitivity?) to transgressions when they happen. Other people are ok with a generally sexist working environment and I find it very difficult to handle. At times I do think why can't I fit in like others, why does this bother me so much?  I wish I could just let it roll off me. It's hard to see these things from someone else's perspective.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 10, 2022, 07:04:55 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I agree with you that it's difficult to look at things from someone else's perspective.  I sense that you do have more awareness and sensitivity, as that comes through from what you've said.  Sorry that you had a generally sexist working environment to contend with.  That's tough and understandably difficult to handle.

Sending you a hug, if that's ok  :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 13, 2022, 06:51:24 PM
Thank you Hope  :hug: I watched part of.a series with someone who grew up in a refugee camp and then became the Rwandan president and he said how could you not do something after seeing this happen...not that I think this is a genocide but think these things stick with you when you've been through something. I'm going to try not to be hard on myself about it.

I have this kind of strange maybe dissociated (?) feeling right now. I don't know what it is. At the gym the other day and the guy called me "big" and after a while feelings about my sf came up but it was a surprise? I know the things he said about me being fat as a kid but it's not like I feel these things at the gym or see that as being the reason I exercise.

So right now after three weeks of cutting calories I should be down around 1.5-2kgs but am down nothing in weight or bf. I would say there's an error with the scale but my measurements haven't really reduced either. I've been through this before with doctors over the last 10 years, saying there's nothing with my test results, that I'm fine etc. Now I can see it being related to my SIBO, low pancreatic enzymes creating high insulin, low zinc levels etc and am trying to address that. I guess I'm feeling not great about myself or having to deal with this, and it came up again, in a somewhat dissociated way, the connection between my mom calling me ms. piggy and how I react to my body. Or maybe the connection to me eating and what I eat has something to do with my body. There's so much fat shaming, image obsession in life where how you look is equivalent to your will power/personal responsibility etc. too. I guess the dissociated feeling is just me trying to deal with the emotions that come up around this. I'm not 100% sure what I'm blocking.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 14, 2022, 09:24:43 AM
Things falling a bit more into place health wise and found studies linking covid to pancreatic function and increased cases of diabetes after covid. Makes sense that it would further affect my already low functioning pancreatic enzymes that were low due to SIBO.

I guess this is on my mind a lot as I have an appointment with the doctor tomorrow that I have been putting off. Am tired of hearing there's nothing wrong with you and am just steeling myself to deal with it again, getting all the information in place that I can. It's true that what I thought was wrong before wasn't (hypothyroidism/autoimmune thyroid disorder despite it running in my family), but I knew something was off and was looking for answers where the doctors just flat out refused to listen. Maybe I sounded manic (?) but I think when you've grown up in a hyperaware state and know your body as a result of that hyperaware state, it's hard to communicate that something isn't right when you don't know exactly what it is. I think the same is true with the trainer I had earlier this year, that they want you to do things, but something is also off. I was doing all the "right" things but those weren't working, and it's hard to find someone who relates/knows what you're going through that has an answer for it that doesn't deny your experience. So relatable. Anyways, pancreas and insulin are related, high blood sugar makes more sense and not losing while on a calorie restricted diet as well.

Had a dream last night that this dog/rabbit came into my lap and I was enjoying cuddling it (was watching these very cute sheep videos before bed which have a girl cuddling with her sheep and sheep kind of look like rabbits). While I was cuddling this dog/rabbit, my mom and my brother were driving around somewhere nearby. The neighbourhood kind of looked like around where I grew up. I felt how cutoff they were from me, doing their own thing, and how outside/apart I felt from them growing up. Just remembering how I would always try to call or contact my mom, and how often I couldn't get a hold of her. I guess I felt emotionally stuck for a long time in that panicked feeling of trying to get a hold of her or just that panicked feeling of distance, maybe that's changing into something else now? That I can feel the other things around it, like what it felt like to be on the outside as the need for connection isn't as imminent (needing her to survive isn't as strong).  I still feel like these things coming up are somehow outside me...?

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on February 14, 2022, 02:33:05 PM
Hi DollyVee

Good luck at the doctor!

Awhile back before I started getting help I was having a lot of scary health symptoms.  I felt so relieved that my doctor took them super seriously and tested me for about everything. Separately from her I went to a GI doc for those issues and he diagnosed me with a pretty serious case of SIBO, like you. In the end, it was just the SIBO and the trauma that was causing all of those health issues. My doctor didn't know about the trauma because honestly I didn't know either really. But I am so grateful she didn't treat me as if it were all in my head. In the end, it WAS all in my head, lol, but I am glad my doctor treated me well. You deserve the same.

SIBO and trauma can really do a number but we also deserve to be taken seriously and have help tracking down what might be going on and treated like we matter.  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 14, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
Thank you Armee - I've already had a GI map done which shows very low pancreatic function. My FMP linked this to SIBO but the connection between the pancreas and covid makes sense as to why I could lose weight before covid but can't after as it worsened the pancreatic function even more. Yes, it does suck to have to talk to these docs again and again and not have them validate my experience. I am lucky that my FMP listens though and is more tuned into what is actually going on. Glad you found something that works for you.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on February 15, 2022, 02:36:54 PM
 :sunny:  hope you have a sunny day
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 21, 2022, 09:57:09 AM
Thank you Larry  :cheer:

Hmmm I haven't felt much like writing in here, or that I'm really in touch with what's going on right now. T said that I've been processing a lot of stuff and I had a difficult time acknowledging that. I feel like I'm in a familiar place of putting down things that are coming up, the it wasn't that bads have returned, and maybe this crosses over into the fantasy of how I want things to be? I'm watching a lot of series, and feel like I'm subconsciously putting things on the back burner. Anyways, it came up with t that when things do come up that I've never had a chance to express them. After out last session where I acknowledged that it feels good to feed myself and that I'm not doing a "bad" thing by eating, or even feeling pleasure by eating, I felt almost defensive and like I didn't want to talk this past session.

Also have been working more and t and I talked about implications, or wanting to be seen as you see yourself. That was difficult as I always think there is something wrong with how I want to be or that it's inauthentic. I've been making progress on that, but it's weird/different to see it coming up in this way. I did have some good connections this past week at work and am trying to keep that, but on the other hand, I do feel like I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think the same thing came up around eating/feeling good. I guess I have the responsibility to go forward. I guess it's hard to look up when I feel like this and feel creative or good. I guess there's a lot of negativity under that.

Doctor was ok, and listened-ish, but I still felt a lot of doubt and that perhaps they were just being polite. When I told them about my diet, they said, "oh that's actually quite good." I'm pretty sure they think there is something wrong with my liver, but I was pretty sure there was something off a few years ago with that, but when I was tested was told my levels were fine. Anyways, I did get a referral for a gastroenterologist but still a part of me fears the same cycle will repeat.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on February 22, 2022, 04:52:26 AM
 :hug:

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on February 23, 2022, 02:42:11 AM
I appreciate you sharing Dolly. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 04, 2022, 10:05:51 AM
Thank you Armee and Rainy

Not being able to log onto the site for a while really made me feel what a resource it is to be able to talk about stuff on here  :grouphug:

Talking about methylation has renewed my interest in researching it and connection to how I'm feeling. There's so much information out there and think as I started to feel better and no further symptoms arose as I thought I was addressing it, other things just sort of came up. There's a lot of conflicting information about how to address it too which is also confusing. Anyways, just something that's interesting to me and want to see if it has something to do with my irritability sometimes.

Strangely, the other day I had something come up which I never really looked at; that I've never been able to see it as separate. The night before work, I was texting with a colleague about the job the next day. Afterwards, before I fell asleep I became really disturbed that I couldn't remember if I'd turned the oven off or not. I was spending the night in a hotel three hours away from where I lived and there was no way to check. This came out of nowhere and thinking about it after saw that there'd been quite a few times when I was unsure if I'd locked the car door and actually went out to check. I don't know what this is? It came from this fearful (?) place.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CactusFlower on March 04, 2022, 03:58:13 PM
Hi Dolly!

I'm catching up now that I am back on here. Something you said in your previous posts made me think. You said first that you had a lot of stuff you'd put on the back burner. Then you later talked about being anxious over having turned off the stove. My mind made this mental connection: thinking of stuff as being on a back burner --> checking if stuff is off/worrying about it is common to anxiety issues --> perhaps the mind connected the imagery and the stove worry is really about having too much in the background?  I hope that made sense. I could be off base, but just sharing what I saw. gentle hugs if you want them.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 06, 2022, 11:05:58 AM
Thanks Cactusflower - I think it's fitting in a way. This stuff is bubbling up from somewhere.  :hug:

I noticed that the "surprises" I've been having lately about my m/sf/gym stuff probably have something to do with the feelings around them. I didn't have a way to process these feelings, so they were shut out. I don't know if that's dissociation because they're sort of popping up and even though I know the conscious association between working out and my body image (how it must affect me), it still feels like a surprise. These fearful feelings probably/might come from a very young place too where I didn't know how to deal with/articulate how my m behaved towards me, or deal with things that didn't feel safe.

T and I talked about what my m said to me as a young child and what my sf did/said as well. I think I'm scared (?) of those feelings or worried that I will be overwhelmed and it's not something I can control, so I shut them out. Even in some IFS journey's there were so overwhelming that I walled them up. I think I have been processing this and it's helpful to remember that it's fear, or what it is, and see where it's coming from. I'd like to be able to sit with this more.

This week I really, really saw how much my diet affects my mental/emotional health and overall mood. I think it's such an important connection and have spent a lot of time thinking it must be me and not seeing the connection. I knowingly ate gluten and have seen big mood changes but never realized how deep it went. I wanted to do a little test and I also wanted that piece of salt & pepper squid. The next morning I woke up ravenously craving sugar and had no self control with it. I felt timid at the gym, like worried about the people, not feeling strong enough/believing in myself enough to deal with their negativity. I also noticed that I kind of went into a depression, I was eating more junk and not really caring about why and felt really pessimistic about it. It's so different from the last three weeks because I've really enjoyed eating healthy, and if I want to have a bit of sugar/chocolate I will, but was also craving eating healthy and this completely obliterated that.

I went onto the reddit and there were posts about how peoples' behaviour changed with gluten. I always knew that it made me "hate the world" and go quite dark the next day, but never really connected it to some of the things they were saying before like how irritable it can make you and the impact on your friendships. I think just think back on an ex and how little emotional control I had and how similar it is to these people saying how there are completely different.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on March 07, 2022, 02:58:07 AM
Dolly, I am wishing you well as you navigate body and eating things. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on March 07, 2022, 07:46:35 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Really interesting to hear about your experiences with gluten and emotions, and I also wish you the best in navigating your way through these realisations.  I have a tendency to comfort eat, but I've never really thought about the actual content of the food I eat.   

I was hoping to say more, but for some reason I am running out of words, so I'll just send you a hug, if that's ok  :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 08, 2022, 12:16:15 PM
Thanks Rainy and Hope  :hug: After the past month and a half of eating relatively well (4/5 small meals during the day with some sugar but less processed stuff), it was very noticeable that something was off.

My brain is starting to come back online now and starting to feel better. It was such a marked difference to how I was feeling before and I noticed that some of the things I thought were normal thinking  growing up (apathy? to feel down, a little bit of it must be me), reared their heads during this episode. I hadn't had those thoughts in quite a while which makes me think it's whatever the gluten does to me, or how it plays out in my body at then moment (with whatever deficiency etc is happening).

I did do some more digging about methylation and it's fascinating. Apparently our bodies will find a way to produce sulfate if those pathways are lacking, even if it means having to produce hydrogen sulfide, which I have a lot of. Will see what the doctor says. Maybe I wasn't given him enough credit, but I think he will check the liver enzymes to see if something is off, not the actual detox/methylation pathways and enzymes related to those. I will bring all this up with the fmp too. Some of the issues related to methylation are things my dad had (and his side of the family - migraines, psoriasis, Bi polar, OCD) and my mom's side too (allergies, autoimmune). I've always had white spots on my nails even as a kid. Anyways, lots of speculation but am curious how it affects my mental state and all the neurotransmitters it breaks down etc. If my body is not functioning right,  maybe it shuts down the cognitive parts that are processing the CPTSD.

My gf texted the other night and I've been ignoring it. I don't really want to approach that one right now.





Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 10, 2022, 10:38:04 AM
So I've been playing around with different vitamin supplements to see how I feel/react to changes in my methylation cycle. Somethings have been great (more connected/feeling spontaneous emotion, happy) and some not so good (more manic/ADHD symptoms). It's sort of hitting me much much this up and down has probably been with me for a lot of my life, but maybe have taken it on as "wrong with me," and therefore bad. 

I'm just waffling here but I've had a lot of the symptoms of impaired methylation since a child - allergies, asthma (high histamines/histamines not being cleared); attention-seeking (perhaps a spectrum of ADHD, lack of focus); have picked a job that doesn't have a normal "routine" as I thought it was something I would fit well with and felt like too much routine could get boring. I think ADHD is a catchall for a lot of behaviour and it's a spectrum, but there were definite periods I remember growing up where I couldn't focus, but I had too there was no other option if I didn't do well in school. I was suppressing this to live up to my family's expectations and what they felt I should be like. If I didn't, then there must be something wrong with me, or some great misfortune would befall me. I never really stopped to look at what that misfortune might be or where it was coming from. I can see how my mom's behaviour towards me as a child/infant in the womb (and all that she had to go through) influenced this, maybe keeping me in a high state of stress (keeping homocystine high? and further embedding these feelings?)

I remember being shouted at by my fourth grade teacher for interrupting the class. I don't know if I mentioned that before, but it's something that comes up once in a while. She brought my mom in to talk about my excessive attention seeking. Of course my m didn't do anything, or I interpreted it as I was "bad." I looked back on it as acting out because of all the things that were going on with my m and sf at the time and it was a behaviour that I had to control when I couldn't talk about any of the things that were going on. Not that the teacher or my m would listen. Was there something going on physically that also kept me active? It's a fine line - where does our emotional and physical reactions to situations start and end? I think I grew up in the preADHD era where physical imbalances affecting the emotional state weren't considered (not that they really are more now?). As child though, we/I take it on as it's us and there's something wrong with who I am.

Perhaps my insomnia in university can also be attributed to this - high stress, lack of focus. It has felt that I had to learn how my brain works in order to do things, like organization and ordering of tasks/making sense of things wasn't always easy and happened in a different way to other people. Anyways, interesting to see what results come back from the doctor.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on March 10, 2022, 01:29:35 PM
What a lot to explore - I hope that you learn information that is supportive to you.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on March 10, 2022, 02:41:44 PM
I felt a lot of these same symptoms too DollyVee amd only now see how they are offshoots of trauma. It's interesting what you are learning about the physical impacts of all that stress and distress.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 15, 2022, 03:16:49 PM
Thank you Rainy - it's a very interesting detour https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201723?WT.feed_name=subjects_epistasis

Thank you Armee - I'm not sure if it's semantics but I don't see it as all caused by trauma. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. We're given a genetic blueprint when we're born (including generational trauma responses) and then the environment we grow up in (trauma, nutrition, chemical, mold, toxic exposure, positive attachments etc) start to determine how those genes are expressed. I think I would find it hard to say how I feel is just because of the trauma, or the anxiety I'm experiencing is just because of trauma, even though I thought that for a while

Soooo there's a lot of overlap between physical and mental health I think for me. I've learned that I'm genetically susceptible to high levels of inflammation and histamines. One of the factors to watch out for is chronic stress. I can see how this would have been an issue as a kid and the environment I grew up in. There's also other genetic tags which make me susceptible to the link between anxiety and inflammation. Cytokines also cross the blood brain barrier, and inflammation impacts the way your mind works. I've only started to look at it but Histamine 3 receptors also impair memory. I'm also genetically susceptible to GI infections and I think h pylori and other infections had their part in it too which causes more inflammation. I might also be susceptible to chronic inflammatory syndrome which means I don't really detox anything.

Looking over the MAO enzyme I saw the below and how much it sounded like my mother. Unfortunately, the 23nd me doesn't give me my MAO and am looking into another test.  Of course, all these enzymes work together and don't think it comes down to one thing or the other, but a combination of all factors. She had quite a few of these:

Allergies (allergies are more common with MAO-B risk alleles)
Psychopathic disorders
Schizophrenia5, 6
Alcoholism1, 11
Nicotine dependence in women1
Panic disorders2
Obsessive compulsive disorder3, 11
Bipolar disorder4
Novelty-seeking personality
Sleep disorders
Fibromyalgia
Antisocial personality disorder in women7
Aggressive behavior8,11
ADHD in females9
Social phobia11
Hypertension11
Difficulty experiencing and expressing love11
Allergies (this is only with the risk allele for the MAOB gene)

If anyone is interested in going through it, I think this is a good resource:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07BVWYXGD/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on March 15, 2022, 11:00:58 PM
That makes a lot of sense, DollyVee. I'm sorry I should only speak for myself. It does sound like there's a combination of genetic and environmental stuff going on for you. I just meant for me, the medical treatments didn't help much but dealing with the traumas is helping. Things like bladder issues, gi infections, vitamin deficiencies, muscle and joint pain, migraines, numbness, gyn issues, confusion, etc. But that is just me and I wish you some relief however you can find it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on March 16, 2022, 03:50:33 PM
sending you some positive vibes,    i hope you have a good day
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 20, 2022, 03:15:57 PM
Thanks Armee - I'm sure you're coming from a good place. As I said before, I'm glad you found something that works for you but it hasn't worked for me. 6 years in therapy, making good progress (as noted by t) with a good t working on my trauma with EMDR etc and my physical symptoms have still persisted. So am open to exploring other things that help :)

Thanks Larry -  ;D

So it's been an interesting archaeological road trip through past states of mind fuelled by different vitamins. I feel like I'm taken back to times in my life when I remember feeling the same way. Hopefully, with a little more insight into why. Perhaps a lot of this procrastination, which looking back, there was a lot of, is coming to the forefront and has always been much more present then I realized but could offset it by being hyper-focused when I needed to, steeling myself and getting it done. My family wanted me to study and accomplish things or I was being lazy. There was no space to explore this or even consider it an option. I always had to make it work. I do space out a fair bit and move from one thing to another but living alone I have my ways of doing things and don't really have to explain it.

I've also noticed that when I did switch gears into getting things done mode, I sort of lost the capacity to think about the meals I would need to eat or plan what I wanted to eat to be healthy, and that was familiar too. It just seemed really foreign when I had been doing it a few weeks before. It took me back to a time at university when I felt I was so focused on making my family happy and living the life that they wanted me to that I forgot about me, which is when I decided to switch degrees. Looking at it now, maybe it was (or partly) related to a neurotransmitter imbalance? That the getting things done mode wasn't just me being unhappy because I felt the trauma (which I didn't know was trauma then) of playing out my role in our dysfunctional family.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 22, 2022, 05:51:55 PM
The more I read about the symptoms/effects of ADHD, the more they make sense for me:

Lack of motivation to clean/get things done = executive dysfunction
Sensitivity to noise/other people being near me
being late for appointments sometimes for therapy (a few years ago when I had to be there in person); felt like maybe I was sabotaging myself at the time
remember telling T that when I listen to people, it's like I have to reorganize the information that makes sense to me; ADHD ppl usually have problems with listening
People with ADHD (study was with children) are 10x more likely to get bullied as they come across as nervous or fearful, and can be impulsive

Came across a study on PTSD in children and that they can be from more disadvantaged households because there are overlapping stresses on parents (economic, social etc). I think it made me realize how much I felt like I had to hide aspects of myself and history so I wouldn't be judged (although I'm sure I still was) and I could have some sort of accomplishment. Well not really accomplishment but just going out and being my own person, normal everyday stuff; what you see everyone else doing.

My family reinforcing success (whatever that looked like?) only helped dissociate me/disorient me from what was actually happening physically and mentally I think because I didn't understand it. I can't not finish papers - what's going on with me, I'm not that person etc. I have to be NORMAL, why can't I be like everyone else. I remember in therapy my two t's would tell me not to be hard on myself but I always felt like I had to push and I think part of it was just trying to manage how to focus and do things like "a normal person." i had to go through years of wrestling with myself and dealing with it must be me before I finally started learning about NPD and CPTSD. It's helped dealing with the trauma and processing a lot of that stuff, having a better idea of what success looks like for me, that I can accomplish things, and I'm not a bad person. I think now that I'm in a better place I can see that some of the things (not cleaning up) are maybe related to trauma in a different way and that my mind is just disorganized. I think I've done a good job of managing it so far and don't know if I would have done the same if I knew. Would a diagnosis have limited my thinking? Would it have been shameful? Maybe I would have taken offence to someone trying to label me as something as if I was defective. But looking at it now, I think it helps to know how I relate to other people and understand better how my mind works.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 29, 2022, 08:42:01 PM
Had a chat with my fmp yesterday and she's on board with my experimenting. I need to take out the iron but the research/dosage etc didn't raise any flags or concerns for her. I started taking lithium orintate yesterday and it feels pretty, pretty good. It supposedly helps with anxiety and everything feels quite mellow today in my mind, my word recall doesn't seem as bad either but I haven't been speaking as much. It helps the B9 and B12 enter your cells. Not the THE lithium.

I've been thinking about my dad and the bipolar running in that side of the family and links between methylation and neurotransmitter imbalance and suicide. I don't think it's so simple as suicide is the result of vitamin/enzyme deficiencies but what if it was that simple? My dad's own childhood trauma played a big part in how he developed but maybe it wasn't everything and it's not how strong or weak you are to handle these things.  I don't even know what to think about that. I'm going to mention it to my aunt I think.  I don't really want to upset her, I know she misses my dad.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: paul72 on March 29, 2022, 11:22:16 PM
hi dollyvee
just wanted to send support and best wishes as you navigate through this.  it sounds difficult :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on March 30, 2022, 12:58:50 AM
hi dolly,   i hope you are doing well.   ;)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 04, 2022, 12:51:51 PM
Thanks Phil  :grouphug:

Thanks Larry  :sunny:

Am doing ok though I did get covid again, but luckily it wasn't as bad as the first time. I think things are coming up in a different way, maybe different parts of my brain are being activated and I'm looking at things in a new way. I was speaking to T about growing up in the house when my mom would be partying and bringing people back. I was recalling the people and that time but it wasn't as if I was looking at it from the end of a very long telescope, some feelings were present but not in an unmanageable way. I guess I was connected to the memory not just remembering it which is interesting.

Also have been reading Scattered Minds by Gabor Mate. So, much of what he's writing feels like me. Although, I think I've learned to live with this "condition" for so long that I've also figured out ways to manage it but I do relate to a lot of what he's writing about. The intensity of being around people, having no time for small talk, not being able to fully rest but also not being able to fully concentrate; impulsivity and overtly sensitive to rejection. Also, how much of what I've learned to do is masking and how much is me? I like that he thinks of the condition similar to impaired eyesight - it's not bad or good, it just functions differently. I feel like I'm taking my brain out of its box and seeing why I did/do something in a new way. I think it fills me with less panic that something is wrong, that I did something wrong when I'm looking at it this way. I think I'm pretty thankful that I'm not going to white knuckle through my genetics/upbringing any more.

I messaged my aunt and haven't heard back. I haven't checked to see if she read the message. I've never talked about my dad'd death a lot. There is a big reaction around suicide and I think I learned it was more exhausting managing what I felt like were peoples' reactions to suicide and their own feelings around it than it was to talk about it. I don't think this is a big factor with her but I know she still misses my dad. I can't believe I never would think (who would? who knows about this stuff?) that bipolar and suicide can be linked? I guess psychiatrists do but it was never talked about in my family or that these things were heritable. I went through my CACNA1C SNPs which are calcium channels known to be related to bipolar, schizophrenia, ADD and MDD and am heterozygous in all of them except one. Gabor Mate is trying to make the point that our genetics don't predetermine something but highlight a predisposition to it and I think that's a good way to look at it. If there is something that is inherited, how much time and effort have I spent thinking that it's me and something I've done?

Anyways, looking forward to some souvlaki chicken tonight :) Can't wait to go back to the gym.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on April 04, 2022, 02:11:45 PM
Hi Dolly,

So very glad you are feeling better and this round of covid was not as bad.

I hope your aunt does open up and talk to you. I've noticed the same thing as you with suicide. Even when we are open to talking about it, it brings so much reactivity from others that it shuts the conversation off from helping you process the person's death.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: sanmagic7 on April 06, 2022, 07:47:20 AM
dolly,

i totally believe in the predisposition theory, both for addictions (as you mentioned elsewhere) and the way our brains respond to mental/emotional abuse.  there is a lot of both in my extended family.  i found it helpful in taking a lot of blame off myself for my D1 and her issues, as well as the blame and shame game for myself.  thanks for sharing this.  love and hugs :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 09, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Thanks Armee - I think the reality is is that my aunt just isn't as savvy with social media messengers as I thought haha. Unfortunately, I think suicide is deemed a sin by many religions and regardless if people are religious or not, this is still in the public subconscious whether they want to unpack it or not. Telling them it's a result of genetics (or evolution) might just bring another wall as this science is being contested.

Thanks San  :hug: I'm sorry. Suicide leaves a giant hole and many emotions, questions, feelings regardless of why it happened but I'm glad that predisposition helped you reframe it. I don't know if you've read Scattered Minds by Gabor Mate, and it is about ADHD, but he discusses his family and ADHD in his own children. He describes his own family as loving but kids are sensitive, and if that predisposition is there, then it sets the epigenetic effect in motion. Also, to not blame himself when he was unaware that any of this was going on (that he had ADHD).

I'm learning that dopamine helps with fear extinction and socialization/wanting to be around people. Through health stuff lowering my neurotransmitter production and being genetically predisposed to faulty dopamine receptors/low dopamine production it's pretty mindblowing that I've felt those things for a lot of my life.

I've also learned that having cervical instability can lead to vagus nerve dysfunction (our centre for fight or flight) because it can be compressed. I always have tension in the side of my neck and learned that it's likely cervical instability as it's in the same area. Interestingly, T has talked about doing some deep brain reorienting lately and it too is related to tension in the neck and shoulders. I"m going to see a chiropractor and do the DBR with T and hopefully both these help too. After listening to a talk on gut bacteria, and how when we're born the gut bacteria we have predisposes us to develop asthma/allergies (inflammation/cytokines crossing the blood brain barrier), I wonder if it's possible to be born with low vagal tone?

Dissociation, Anxiety and Depression – Uncontrolled emotion in cervical spine instability patients
https://www.caringmedical.com/prolotherapy-news/dissociation-anxiety-depression-uncontrolled-emotion-cervical-spine-instability-patients/

Emotional stress: Anxiety, Depression and Panic Attacks: A neurologic and psychiatric like condition caused by cervical spine instability
https://www.caringmedical.com/prolotherapy-news/neurology-like-conditions-caused-cervical-spine-instability-vagal-ganglion-neuron-destruction/#:~:text=The%20blood%20flow%20to%20and,a%20person%20has%20cervical%20instability.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on April 11, 2022, 12:36:44 AM
hope you are doing well
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 18, 2022, 09:00:54 AM
Thanks Larry  :hug: I'm staying busy and working a lot.

The chiropractor was incredible. After she worked on my neck I just sort of lay on the table adjusting to the new feelings sensations coming up. There was no tension in my body and driving home I didn't get upset driving in traffic like I always do. I could feel myself getting stressed by people who I felt were manipulative or "over-powering" in their way but my body didn't react. I was supposed to see her a few days later but the appointment was moved because of work. Really looking forward to the new one in a couple days.

Babies can be born with low vagal tone and that presents as colic. Both my brother and I had colic as babies. It's also a sign of chronic stress in babies. I had been wondering if having low vagal nerve function can cause the feelings in my neck  what came first essentially, but I don't think these things can be separated that way. Lots of emotions are coming up around babies lately. When I started taking a supplement, I read the FDA report and it showed MRI (?) /coloured brain imaging of peoples' brains before and after starting the supplement. Their brains were lighting up in new areas after their study finished and I wonder if my brain is lighting up in new ways too now? That there's things coming up that haven't before. I took a course this week with a rinpoche and he talked about the mind searching the body and body searching the mind in order to find the clear light.

A friend of a friend was volunteering at an orphanage in the Ukraine and explained how there was a baby with only a scrap of fabric with the only known details about them written on it. I really broke down when I saw that and again when I explained it to T. There was something about that baby's distress or imagining a baby in distress that came over me. T asked me about my birth and I don't know what happened. My m never talked about stuff like this.

Work is trucking along. I find myself reorienting my feelings toward myself in social situations with an understanding about ADD. How I would try to hold in my comments or what I was saying, and instead of thinking there was something wrong with me for doing that, to understand where it was coming from, and to not take peoples' reactions to it personally. I think it's still something I would like to know/navigate better.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on April 18, 2022, 01:36:53 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
It's great to hear that your chiropractor appointment has been helpful.  It sounds like it had a significant result. 

:hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on April 18, 2022, 04:28:44 PM
Offering you hugs if they are comfortable and wanted...
......






:hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on April 19, 2022, 12:26:03 AM
Dolly, I appreciate you sharing about the topic of babies.  I had colic too and appreciate more and more I was so stressed even as a baby.  My parents' trauma and stress was already impacting me.  I've had babies on the mind too - I hope you are able to comfort your baby self.  Sometimes I imagine holding my baby self. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on April 23, 2022, 02:39:02 AM
hi dolly
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on April 25, 2022, 09:23:54 AM
Thanks Hope, Armee, Rainy, and Larry

I had my second chiro appointment and it worked on different things. Although, I think I am still feeling relaxed from the first one - my anxiety/stress while driving feels like it's still down. Also feeling more relaxed and less "amped up" when things get stressful at work. I do think the supplements are helping as well. I'm starting to feel more social, like I actually want to go out and hang out with people. There's stuff that comes up but overall I feel more relaxed in my body is a good way to look at it.

Some stuff did come up at the chiro's office during the second appointment. At the time, I don't think I really paid attention to my parts, or what was going on internally because the last session was so helpful, but I think there was something going on. Maybe it was someone touching me or that I was getting rid of things/behaviours that kept me safe and I didn't check in first. When people, even friendly people that I like, are sharing or just talking, it's fine as long as it's at an emotional distance but when things get too "close," maybe physically or emotionally, I feel that I dissociate (?) or my brain just panics or goes into a fog.

T and I talked more about doing deep brain reorienting and I can see how it would be beneficial. I can also see how it would bring up a lot of stuff which she is aware of. I feel like my body moves in certain ways in response to things, that there is a programmed response to emotions. The chiropractor appointments have made me more aware of this and that at night for example, I want to twist my neck in certain ways, but I don't really feel the need to do so.

There's also more feelings coming up around relationships. It popped into my head the other day that when the idea of dating someone comes up, or being close to that person, my brain automatically starts setting up "ideals" or some sort of fantasy relationship - I don't really know how to describe it. I guess it's a way of keeping things at a distance and not really allowing myself to come out. That this is how the ideal "me" would be in a relationship, or this is what this person "expects" me to be or I would be like. It's wild because I don't really know how to turn it off, it's just something automatic that happens.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on April 27, 2022, 08:34:54 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I'm glad that your second appointment went so well, there are lots of positives that you've described there. 

It's interesting to read about the body moving in certain ways in response to things.  I have also read things in other places about the programmed response to emotions.  I think it's great that your chiropractor appointments are making you more aware of those things.

Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 02, 2022, 09:50:30 AM
Thanks Hope  :hug:

Both of these things, the supplements and the chiropractor, are having an underlying but discernable effect of my overall mood and state of mind. It's subtle at times so I don't really notice it but I do think it's there. I felt positive the other day about tackling things which came up and just about myself and trying new things. I haven't felt that in a long time. I've got a mycotoxin test that I'm sending away and I really hope it's not an issue but I have a feeling like it is.

I've been playing some solfeggio frequencies and had a couple "reactions" to them. Normally, I play them in the car to try and calm me in traffic but I tried them on with headphones and had a much more profound experience. I noticed I was ruminating about a conversation I had the previous day with someone and when I became aware of that and let it go, I started to notice movement in my hand and neck from side to side. I bet my heart rate would have been up there, and it felt like I was in flight, running trying to get away from something, but I let it happen. Afterwards, I felt kind of tired. The other one, was a different movement, in my shoulder, and was a twitching as soon as I put it on. But when stuff like this happens, it's scary because I don't know where it's coming from. Maybe a part of me feels like it's in danger or can't let this stuff go because I don't know what will happen.

When I put the frequency the a second time, I thought maybe there was a part who would numb things and feel like things were ok no matter what was happening (because it is too much to feel if not?). I'm realizing writing this that there's probably an intellectual part in between these things "realizing" them. I'm not sure what's stopping me from connecting with my parts directly.

T and I were talking about my gf and gm the other day and I connected how he was an alcoholic as well, both were addicts of different things. Except there was no recognition of there is/was a problem. They hid it and pretended everything was fine and that really did a number on me. My other gm was also an alcoholic but it wasn't so emotionally entangled. She just did her thing every night. With these gps, it was why don't you love me, take care of me when we can't admit what's actually happening, and are essentially lying to ourselves and everyone else. I couldn't just accept it because it meant putting myself on hold even though I can see that they were/are probably in pain. I guess I'm coming to terms with there's nothing I can/could do for them, it's not me to do it, but I also don't feel like I could have a relationship then because there's no reciprocity. Maybe I will read In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts that Hope has liked.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CactusFlower on May 02, 2022, 02:29:31 PM
Dolly- really resonated with your feeling better after a chiropractor visit. I had those years ago and kind of recall a little emotion being brought up/released after a good session. Just proves how much body and mind are connected again, right? I was curious about these solfeggio frequencies and looked it up. Glad you talked about this! The science is fascinating and I'm listening to some right now. It really is quite calming so far. (you can find anything on youtube, LOL) Another useful tool. Hope it continues to work for you as well. gentle hugs if you want them.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 12, 2022, 03:51:48 PM
Thanks Cactus - I wish my experiences with the solfeggio frequencies were as relaxed as yours  ;D I was at a friend's yesterday whose partner is a therapist and mentioned them. He said it's what they're now using to put babies to sleep. I logged on today to talk about what happened with them last night.

I listened to these frequencies (the 528hz and 2hz deep delta sleep) before going to bed last night. I feel like if I shut my brain off, I can find them relaxing but if I'm "open" them I start twitching and my head just moves back and forth, or my shoulder will move, arm etc. It also felt like my legs were trying not to move (?) and I could feel it in my hip which is funny because I have pain in that hip. I feel freaked out in a way by this stuff happening - I don't know where it's coming from/when it will stop etc. But maybe that's part of the feeling coming up itself. Sometimes when I'm going with it and trying to let it happen, I feel like I'm maybe forcing it because I don't want to feel it. Other thoughts were coming up like this is what is (was?) under me acting like a clown and maybe this is what I'm hiding from when I go into "fantasy" mode.

I woke up refreshed but I had a really vivid dream. I was around my old school where I went while I was living with my m and sf. Sometimes I go there in dreams but I haven't thought about it for a while. I had put four animals in a cage and took them out and saw that there were two kittens, a dog that turned into this weightlifter (macho type? my sf is one of those 80s bodybuilder guys which and it's kind of ironic that I'm into weights now; maybe I feel like I'm reclaiming that) guy who told me that he ate the pheasant that was in there. When I looked up pheasant in the dream dictionary it said it symbolized motherhood and nuturance. That's really what felt like what was happening at that time. I did wake up later than usual today and felt pretty refreshed, but didn't want to take my supplements this morning.

I was also talking with my friend yesterday about subconscious desires to reenact things and how even though we consciously don't want things in our lives, we replay the same stuff. I feel like I keep getting drawn into situations with bullies, and another happened this week at work, but I called him on it and he gaslighted me. I realized how familiar but also how wild it is when it's happening. So, is this frequency bringing up this stuff with people like that and I have to work it out in a new way? I looked it up before and it corresponds to domination/being under others' control/ not having free will.

I've been busy with work and would like to comment more on your guys' journals. I think I'm also processing things right now.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on May 13, 2022, 12:05:43 AM
I appreciated reading the experiences with frequencies and relate to continued experiences with bullies.  I feel like I must be giving off something that signals to people that they should bully.  I hope you continue to find things that are supportive.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 15, 2022, 11:31:59 AM
Thank you Rainy  :thumbup:

I'm trying to focus on subsonscious thought patterns now when something happens (I guess that's a paradox there) but to try and create more distance when feelings come up. Not easy. Thinking about what happened at work, I notice the night before my body already felt more anxious knowing I would be working with this person. I had a good talk about it with t and also touched on a recent dating experience. She was starting to talk about dating apps and I noticed myself dismissing what she was saying in a way. I had also felt like I was dismissing, or giving excuses about what's going on with dating, when someone else was suggesting something. This was really interesting. I also felt like I was explaining to t why I had to respond to the person at work the way I did and couldn't just let it go (maybe I did have to do this one - jury's still out).

It left me wondering if maybe I am in the fight response, or something brings up the fight response in me. I never really saw the fight response in me - I don't want to submit people to my will but I'm wondering if it's in me a little bit through my inner critic (which I saw as my mother in an IFS). She was spoiled and bullying and had a very big fear of abandonment. Maybe I carry all of this in me - her original fear of abandonment that needs to be worked through?

I think I'll write more later but wanted to put this down as it came up.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: paul72 on May 15, 2022, 01:05:32 PM
Hi dollyvee
Thanks for sharing about dismissing certain things.
I do this too, almost automatically about some things, and I found it very helpful to hear your thoughts on it. I think you're probably absolutely right and I'm kind of excited to try to work on this.
A sincere thanks and best wishes for a beautiful day ahead for you.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 16, 2022, 08:33:55 AM
Thanks Phil -  :sunny: I hope it works for you. Hope you had a great day as well.

It's interesting because I always feel like I'm on the the end of a bullying response but I have been wondering why do I keep getting into these situations? Is there something subconscious still playing out? I was talking about this the other day with my friend when he recognizes that he attracts PDs and how he falls into the same response he had with his m growing up. I could see that when t was suggesting something, I immeadiately started to turn off and when someone else said something, I was thinking when I was responding to her that it sounds like I'm making excuses. And maybe I was, something about it felt like an old pattern.

In my IFS before, there is a part of me (?) that I've seen as my m that I have had to wall up because it is bullying and won't leave me alone. The Jay Earley book recognized this part as an IC, or an internalized IC that presents as a parent. I've noticed that maybe I fear this response in other people but not that perhaps it is something driving me too, thinking that I have to protect myself; that this is another layer of recognizing  how I am keeping that "idea" by maybe staying in a fight response myself which is that part working? I can't not get caught up in these things because I am "protecting" myself, but "fighting" too.

I've been thinking a lot about the dream and that guy who ate the mothering and nurturing. I think it comes up in both relationships and my interactions with people. What I feel like is present a lot is feeling like I want to be close to people but underneath, it's like crying and wanting to get away when people are near. I don't know how to describe it - deep well of anguish? Like everything is caving in? I can cover it up in a lot of ways but at the bottom, I think that's it.

I still seem to get involved with people who are avoidant and I had someone make a comment which brought up a lot of stuff on dependance. I don't see myself as clingy, but I do need a certain level of communication/knowing where I stand before the above well of anguish kicks in. On the other hand, I've seen that being too close to people brings up feelings of dissociation. It made me think about my m and how she didn't want me to be dependant on her, or she didn't like closeness and affection, and that I do have a feeling of being independant, but also anxious because that sense of attachment could disappear. The kicker is that my m was actually a narc who was dependant on me (and scared of abandonment) so I think it freaks me out when someone might be dependant on me, and on some level prefer emotionally unavailable. I don't know but maybe the bullying/fight response is another layer on top of this which makes me feel like I have to protect myself and keeps me in this cycle of anxious/unavailable?

What's also interesting is that the solfeggio frequency I felt I reacted to corresponds with the third chakra (if these things exist) and that is the place where we find our right to act and if we have a disabled will, we are vulnerable to domination. I do find I have a dance of "freedom" with other people. Maybe it's me expressing my will (whether healthy or unhealthy) and it's an old pattern. I thought this was pertinent:

"Most of us suffer from what I call a "diabled will." Too many times we are made powerless, overly criticized or punished for our actions, taught to submit to authority, or taught we are wrong, stupid, or bad. In this culture, we are raised to obedience. Parents teach children to suppress their anger, to never talk back even (and often especially) if there is abuse going on. Schools reward obedience, as do armies, and many jobs. Culturally, we suffer from a diabled will. We pay taxes to finance wars we don't want, add to pollution while we commute to our jobs, submit ourselves to daily routines that suppress our spirit.

The disabled will is vulnerable to domination, for when we fail to realize our own will, others can use it instead...when this happens, a feeling of powerlessness ensues, and the overall energy and vitality diminish. To consciously choose is an act of will. Change and reorganization of our life energy is the result."
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 18, 2022, 06:39:47 AM
Am working this week with a collegue who was there and friendly with the other person from the incident the other week. I could tell that there were upset with me that I had said something to that person. So, of course there's anxiety in my body and a preoccupation with seeing them/what the interaction will be which I noticed. I tried to take myself out of the fight response or recognize that it was a fight response and something interesting happened - I felt calmer and could imagine myself telling them that I don't have to apologize for my behaviour to that person; that I recognized that what had been said to me last time was gaslighting (it was just a joke etc) and how to acknowledge it this time and shut it down. I'd also felt that I can take responsibility for my behaviour. I'd like to recognize the pattern that "I'm a difficult person" which really makes me edit my behaviour and try to minimize myself.

Had some other dreams after listening to a solfeggio frequency before bed where I was in a sports car driving through a field. It was fun and I loved being in the car (I do enjoy driving). It also made me think of my m and how she liked driving too and smashed the family sports car when she was a teenager. My gf would joke about the Beach Boys song Fun, Fun, Fun being about her. I wonder if this is "her parts" working themselves out through me, or me working out her stuff in some way? When I was meditating on the fire element before during my course, the "mom" part came out. Apparently, the fire element corresponds to the 3rd chakra.

I read Bach's post this morning about moving and it really resonated with me. I've thought before about how much I don't like moving and connected it to never having a secure place as a child, so I always want a home of my own. Last session with t I talked about the school I went to that was in the dream, and I think I began to see that it was a constant for me. During that time my m and I moved from living with my gf, to my m's house, to my sf's house in the space of three years. Then, the following year, I moved to my dad's house and to my gp's house five years later. I don't know why but it brought up a lot of stuff/tears this morning thinking about my gf's house and the trees they planted. Maybe it had something to do with this is where my m grew up? Or that it was a constant place for me as a kid.

I feel like my executive dysfunction is massively reduced since I started taking amino acids to help with dopamine. I have a list of things that need to be done and it doesn't feel extremely overwhelming. Or, when it does, I can start to break it down into things that I can do. I think NAC helps too. I don't know how much it's related to me but there are some interesting studies on NAC and aggression. Maybe it's helping the frustration I feel when things don't go "right" on a subtle level in the background.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on May 18, 2022, 05:47:31 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I had kept a saying that I think was said by Jung, which was about the playing out of the subconscious, and how we repeat patterns in life until the issue in the subconscious is worked through/resolved - but I can't find where I put the quote, but I hope to find it, as I felt it related to things you wrote. 

I listened to some solfeggio frequencies the other day, after reading about your experiences.  I found it interesting, and I found a list that talked about what the different frequencies represented.  I must admit I was a bit scared to listen to them at first, but it was ok. 

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I appreciate all that you've written about your IFS journeys, and your experiences, and think you're doing well with your journeys. 

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 22, 2022, 10:22:23 AM
Thanks Hope - I know this comment by Jung I think. It's just a mystery how we/I block things and then keep repeating them. I'm glad your experience with the frequencies went well. I think it's just scary to be because I don't understand what's happening and maybe because it's something I've blocked. Hope that your journeys are going well too.

I'm recognizing that I'm blocking things right now, or maybe just better understanding how my brain works? I worked with someone where it was a difficult experience last year. This week when I saw the name of the person I would be working with (it's an unusual name) I though, oh I've never worked with a (name) before. It was like I blocked this person's name from my memory, or blocked something about that job.

I noticed that when I was talking to t this week, it was like I could really feel myself in an analytical mode and it felt very strange and unreal. But I also know that I think being able to stand back and analyze things has helped me process what's happened and grow. I guess there's something between my emotions and my analysis of them right now. Maybe I'm trying harder to suppress those emotions or they are deeper ones?

I mentioned to t about being in the fight response and how it didn't feel like me. She said that a lot of what we learn about relationships we learn preverbally. Reading Phil's post made me see how I maybe experience(d) my m's behaviour towards me that she was trying to "get" me and is/was something so intense that I had to wall it off. I experienced my m as having two sides and being very unpredictable.

TW - Emotional/physical A

My m would say things like "the little witch won't tell me x" when really I didn't remember. I also got the wooden spoon a lot and was an often an outlet when my m was frustrated I think. I remember very distinctly her slapping me because my "eyes were laughing." It's funny because I remembered this stuff before but it's now like I'm feeling it in a different way and just seeing how bad this was. What is conflicting is that she would tell me, you know I love you, call me little monkey etc. My m didn't have an emotional capacity to deal with things in an adult way and I think that just left me very confused as to her responses to me etc.

I had a very interesting dream the other night and led me to think more about disabled will and how we're taught to be "good little girls" and how maybe this is more true in some cultures than others. I feel like my gm would say stuff like this a lot and it was very prized for children to be obedient.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 29, 2022, 07:12:31 AM
So the mold stuff is looking like it's a reality and I have an issue with mycotoxins which is crazy when you see what they can do. I also thought the FMD was way off base when she suggested it, but I can see it now. I'm seeing her on Tuesday to confirm/talk about it. I've been messing around with binders and having really strong reactions to them, so something is going on. They made me feel really "off" at work, that talking to people was a struggle. It was like being on the other side of a wall. So, I'm hoping that this reaction is only temporary as this stuff comes out of system but that can take a year+.

It's going to be a thing with the apartment. There was a leak that was never repaired, which just looked like a stain on the wall, but now that I've chipped away some of the plaster and felt it in my lungs after), it looks like there's some black mold underneath. I'll have to get it tested and it's really expensive. I can sue the landlord but he's been proactive, it's just the building company that's taken ages. Although, he has rented it knowing there's damage. I've looked for new place but there's literally nothing out there right now. The icing is that the gym I've been going to also has black mold.

It makes me wonder where and how this was an issue growing up. I remember someone else on hear speaking about mold and what a nightmare it was. I'll try and find what their reactions were. Apparently it affects your hypothalamus and cognition functions like memory, verbal recall, recognition.

Neuropsychiatric Clinical Presentation of Mold Illness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX95pnUxzXw

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on May 29, 2022, 11:32:13 PM
Hi Dolly,

I'm sorry you are having to deal with mold and landlord issues. What a nightmare. I'm curious what type of binding agents are used?

Depending on where you live the damness or water leaks that are necessary for mold's rampant growth can be considered substandard living condition and housing advocacy groups and healthy homes programs may be able to point you to ways to address with the land lord.

It doesn't really matter what type of mold it is as the toxins from various types of mold can be an issue and there are no standard ways of testing or interpreting mold results. Although if you've been advised it is necessary to test in order to sue then ignore me. Generally health agencies don't advise testing. It's more useful to identify the source of moisture. There are devices to do this. And perhaps the city building inspector can provide this service. It depends on where you are.

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this, too. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on May 30, 2022, 08:06:47 AM
Thanks Armee - I'm taking Zeolite powder, citrus fruit pectin, and okra. I've taken Cell Core's biotoxin binder in the past but didn't have a reaction like this. Started tudca and it's supposed to help get things moving. Yes, all this has been given the go ahead by the landlord (remediation,mold testing) as I mentioned which is the tricky part. He's been proactive but the company that manages the building has not, leading to the issue. So, if I sue for back rent, it would likely be to the landlord and not the building company. It could be different in your state, but you need evidence to prove the issue. Hence the testing. Testing also lets you know what mycotoxins you're dealing with so you can treat them as different mycotoxins respond to different treatments. From what I've read EMRI is the better route to go down, but if you are having to throw away belongings, you will need to prove that, they too, have been affected. The thing is, it wasn't even damp. There was a previous leak in the roof which was never fixed properly and there would maybe be faint dampness if it rained but not really. Maybe it was because I never used that room a lot and/or am often out of town. Unfortunately, you don't climb into the attic when looking at places and a lot of mold is hidden out of sight. If you've had issues yourself survivingmold.com is a good place to start.

Doing more research and it looks like mycotoxins actually affect the dopamine receptors in the brain as well. So, perhaps this is what is causing my ADD and why my executive dysfunction has gotten worse. Though, I do think genetics play a factor in that as well if you're already at a dopamine deficiency. This is an interesting article: https://ndnr.com/neurology/mycotoxins-the-brain/

Was reading about aflatoxins and remembered something in my genetics that I've been doing and apparently I'm homozygous for the CYP1A2*1F C164A. This means I don't detox aflatoxins well, and they stay and build up in the system. The stuff I've been taking is supposed to help with this but the mycotoxin detox is not fun as I'm finding out. Some of the symptoms I'm feeling though, I remember from my early 20s after I moved out and went to uni. I lived in a few different apartments then and am wondering if some of the stuff going on was mold related. I also went through a phase then when I was trying out nutritional supps (coming from a hippie city, it's in the blood; or maybe I knew something was always off) and remember having reactions when I would take liver supps.

At that time, I remember the supp guy saying to me, what is going on with my liver, why was I so angry? It's such a small comment that honestly affected me so much. I think I really started taking it on and thinking it was "me," which given my family, was an easy thing to do. No one mentioned mycotoxins or things that could prevent the liver from functioning properly. This is my issue with "holistic" health or alternative health methods sometimes, that they unfairly put a lot of responsibility on you.  Maybe this is why I was so reluctant to trust/believe the FMD in part. I think it's just a build up over the years of people telling me what is going on with my life when they have no idea. It's like cptsd teaches you that you have to be an advocate for yourself no matter what while also making you completely mistrust a lot of things/people. I could go on a rant about how could the gym or the landlord (who did say to me, we'll have to plaster over it instead of that needs to be ripped out) just let things like this happen and not think of other people, but I guess I'm suppressing that for whatever reason?

I felt this weekend a piece of the "old me" come up. Maybe it was feeling the symptoms of the early 20s but I also felt some of the good things from that time and who I was. The part that would be interested in Roman or Greek history and literature and that was nice. I hadn't felt that part in a while. Maybe the other bright side is that the mold explains why I've been gaining weight/not losing on a cut. Apparently, your body stores toxins in wonderful pockets of fat all around the middle when it can't excrete them. The down side is that some people gain weight when detoxing. I guess it gives me a chance to work on my self image more.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 01, 2022, 08:49:03 AM
FMD and I had a good chat yesterday even if I did pay through the nose (ha!) so to speak for it. One of the side effects of this detox is that whatever is living in my nose has started to act up again. Apparently they're staph called marcons which form biofilms, but dump all their toxins down through your nasal cavities into your stomach and the small intestine. So, hello SIBO. I used to get bad nasal drip after swimming and am guessing I was upsetting its home. It just makes me realize how long this stuff has been around living in my body since I haven't swum for years.

I think the pieces are coming together - the SIBO, methylation and mycotoxins. There's an instagram account which is interesting, talking about the links between neuroinflammation and psychiatric issues. I don't think it's a catch all but it is a very interesting connection. T wondered if dad had bipolar like my uncle, which I didn't think fit. My dad's personality was a lot like my aunt's (and mine), quite calm. I'm curious about the connection between mycotoxins and depersonalization/derealization, and perhaps if this "calmness" is something to do with that.

The FMD is happy for me to continue what I've been doing and to listen to my body about things which is great. Another part is very suspicious about her approach to dealing with it as it's not as intensive/differs from other peoples' experiences I've read. Landlord came by and was pretty supportive and offered to pay for the air filter I had bought, which was pretty cool. Although, the suspicious part comes up and says, well he is supportive because you can sue him for at least 50% of all the rent you've paid over the last two years. I'm realizing what an old place this is bringing me back to. The me who doesn't make a fuss and makes sure everything is fair. I do feel like there is something new now, which is saying, wait a minute, is this actually fair for you? How many times have I written over or ignored that part in the past (because that's what I was taught to do, or gotten angry and just felt like I was having a temper tantrum/being unfair - is this gaslighting myself?)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: sanmagic7 on June 01, 2022, 01:52:58 PM
dolly, i relate so much to all the research you do, looking for answers that fit your problems/issues.  i have been doing that for years - it originally began with looking up long-term stress and its effects on the body and mind.  i wasn't getting any info from docs, so this is how some of my symptoms began making sense to me.  once again, as you were talking about, i had to rock my own boat cuz i, too, was raised to be a perfect little girl and was told repeatedly throughout my life not to rock the boat, not to make waves, just accept.

thanks for all the work you've done, and i hope you get some of those landlord/mold issues resolved quickly.  love and hugs :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 02, 2022, 09:21:51 AM
Thanks San - It's true, long term stress does have a lot of debilitating effects. I couldn't remember who had the mold issues on here as well, so I looked it up. I hope you and your daughter are doing ok. After reading other peoples' stories on other forums, this stuff is no joke. I don't even think the neuropsychiatric effects have been fully looked into yet. It's terrible how people have been gaslighted by doctors and we, given the environment(s) we had growing up, just take it on.  :hug:

I feel like I'm in a battle with myself a lot of the time for saying too much or making a fuss. It's instinctual the self analysis that comes after an interaction, and I'm hoping I've made strides with the IC that comes up as well. Although, I don't want to be instringent (?) but I do find like I have a problems with rigidity in the past, and needing to defend myself. I guess because so often what I was saying wasn't heard, or I felt like people thought they could just speak over me like they knew better.

I came across an account yesterday talking about being treated a certain way and I think what they are talking about, I've grappled with myself.

"paying closer attention to all of the ways I unintentionally taught people how to treat me. by always being available for them. putting their problems before my own. sacrificing every bit of my personal time to help them of keep them company (?). ignoring my body for their comfort. can i fully blame them for not considering my feelings right now, when all i've shown them is that they come first & take precedence over a lot of things in my life? i don't think it would only be fair to me to only blame them. not saying i deserve this,i'm saying it makes sense."

I mean, I recognize a lot in the above and I still think I'm dealing with it. I also think it's a lot different when it's your family that taught you that. I think there's a lot of cultural stuff for me about being a "good" child/grandaughter and the parts of me that did that because I wanted connection  to my family at whatever cost. How could I blame my family when that's just the way it was? When, even as I got older and I knew they weren't going to change, it still upset me to deal with them and the only way to do it was to revert back into this pattern? Which then only felt like it hurt myself in the process. So, I was stuck either doing too much, or being in a conflict with someone who was going to cross my boundaries and never see things from my side. I don't think I've grasped how much this goes into my relationships, both professional and otherwise now. I chose a job where you basically have to dedicate your life to it, and still wonder why I see familiar patterns show up of being taken advantage of.

My gf messaged me the other night saying that my brother didn't speak to the lawyer. I'm taking it as his way of saying that I need to pay for the other half of the lawyer bill from his conversation with them. I told him I wasn't paying for anything to do with my brother and sent him half the money. It depresses me endlessly that this is just about money; what happened over Christmas and that I was under the illusion that there was "actual" understanding, but, yet again, I am somehow compromised. Or, I have to give something up that I don't feel it's fair for me to, and I'm not being heard. Then there's the part that says I'm making too much of it. I think I need to speak to that part.

This is long. I feel like the binders are waking up parts of my brain that have been sequestered by tiny toxic particles for a long time. I really hope that I do get my brain back. It's hard to describe but the past couple days, in between the pressure in my head, I've had moments where I could just appreciate the stillness; look at the sunlight on the window sill or the new alocasia shoot that is growing next to the aloe I repotted with its soil. I haven't felt that in quite a while in that way, settled. I started doing things yesterday and thinking about going into town for noodles and it didn't seem overwhelming. Tried my first infrared sauna yesterday and came home and slept for hours, and through a conference call I was meant to be on. I've been doing a lot of sleeping as this stuff really takes it out of me. Looking back, when I started to get really sick I was living in an apartment that had an ensuite. There was a tiny bit of mold in there under the silicone but I wonder now if the problem was much worse behind the wall where I couldn't see. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: paul72 on June 02, 2022, 11:57:13 AM
Good morning dollyvee
I love the images of you appreciating the stillness!! I hope you have more and more of those moments of peaceful joy.  :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: sanmagic7 on June 02, 2022, 03:00:11 PM
hey, dolly,

again, i relate so much to your description of how we've 'trained' other people to treat us.  i get it, have done so myself.  still, looking back, relationships are meant to be a 2-way street.  give and get.  we may have done a lot for others, but they're adults, too.  they're choosing to take take take and not be concerned w/ the wants and needs of others.

i guess i just fired up some anger here.  i have so little tolerance anymore for people who think it's all right to treat others without a thought for caring and well-being.  i've eliminated a lot of so-called friends from my life for this very reason.  it's stressful to deal with them, figure out ways to please them, hope they overlook mistakes. 

and, yeah, we learned it in/from our families and took it with us out into the world.  i played my role there, too, and got a lot of what you said about how we keep playing that song in all sorts of relationships.  i'm learning, too, that how i feel about it is real and true.  i believe it's true for you, too.  you deserved better.  love and hugs :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 03, 2022, 09:37:22 AM
Thanks Phil - I'm really happy my Alocasia is coming back. I had a big one that I rescued but it died and was recently thinking how much I liked it. Happy to have a chance with this miracle seed. It feels like a good dissociation I think, or at least I present dissociation if that's a thing.

Thanks San - I hear what you're saying and it is garbage that that's how they've chosen to act, or be selfish etc. I'm still stunned at how a lot of my "friendships" have played out, and how they usually stopped when I didn't want to be a one way dumping ground, or wasn't useful to them in some way. It makes me angry, and although I think it's justified, I do feel guilty and like I'm being "difficult;" that I should gloss over and keep the peace. I'm am wondering if perhaps it's up to me too to change the patterns, or whatever is bringing them into my life, or find out why I keep getting in the same situations. It's tricky because I know I've blamed myself for everything in the past, which is not helpful, or ok to take that level of responsibility. At the same time, I know I've caught myself doing things for people, or being overly giving with people that I don't necessarily feel "safe" with; that maybe don't have my best interests at heart. I feel like that's all I knew growing up and how can I fault the child, or the part of me, who has been through a lot and was just trying to survive and say that it's not working. How do you tell them that what they tried to bring love isn't going to work, and what feels selfish and drove the love away, is probably what you need to do? Rhetorical question though! I think I'm just trying to work this out. It's been festering for a while.

I still think about those friendships a lot, and sometimes the relationships that didn't work out, and then you go into new relationships with these defenses or expectations about how people are going to behave. It really feels underneath everything. One example is I'm filled with anxiety thinking about approaching my landlord and saying I would like rent back for living in a building under these conditions. I start to do the "fair" dance and it seems wrong to ask for more, for something, like I will have to prove all the reasons why.

Anyways, I joined a new gym and while long term I don't think it's the gym for me equipment wise, I've had some nice, relaxing chats with people that would have never happened at the old gym. I'm looking forward to going today and sweating these toxins out of my body, even though from what I've read it's going to be a really long process. The functional health practitioner account I've looked at on instagram has posted that he reckons PTSD is the result of neuroinflammation. It's an interesting theory, but I'm also skeptical as he's has a "seminar/program" that's suposedly helpful in dealing with it. Tbf FHP have helped me a lot recently get to the bottom of things. Apparently, there is functional, or integrative therapy, that takes these things into account as well.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on June 03, 2022, 04:36:00 PM
hi Dolly,   i'm sure you will find the right gym.   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 04, 2022, 09:05:54 AM
 Thanks Larry  :sunny: the gym is a really important place for me and helps me work out all my stuff haha. Hope you're doing well.

I did have another nice chat in the sauna at the gym and in the change room after. Just a couple of nice moments of connection that I haven't felt in a while. Made me feel a little less distant from others and a little more "normal." Realizing that while the other gym might have been what I "wanted," maybe this is a better fit for who I am. Maybe it's worthwhile staying at the gym and adding a couple of days a week as a drop in at another on certain days for certain equipment. Being able to change and be flexible, pick up a new routine has felt nice.

Last night I came across some info about mycotoxins and suicide, and how there is a connection between mycotoxins and suicidal thoughts. Potentially, there are also elevated levels in suicide completers. There was also a paper between elevated neuroinflammation and suicide. When I was thinking about possible exposure as a kid before, I remembered the cellar room in the house at my dad's. It was a 1950's house and there were cold storage rooms like this, but I always remember it having a really bad smell. Looking back, I'm pretty sure there was water damage somewhere. When my dad bought the house, he ripped out the basement and redid it himself. Mostly by himself, which probably meant he had massive exposure to any mold/water damage that was in there. He also lived for a while in the basement suite while renting out the upper part of the house. Looking at the symptoms of toxic mold exposure, he had quite a few --migraines, weight gain (he did like ice cream, but it could also be mold like me), depression, OCD, irritability/anger, and suicidal thoughts. Maybe there were more too that I wasn't aware of. There's so much inflammation on that side of the family as well. The account I've been following posted that "genetics load the gun, methylation takes the safety off, while environment, lifestyle and psychology pull the trigger." I hate the metaphor but it fits.

It's much more tragic to me to think of my father's death in these terms. Genetics not so much, maybe because we didn't know as much then? But the same can be said for mycotoxins. Maybe because it just seems so preventable and something that is overlooked, not considered. I don't know, maybe it's better that I didn't know the reason behind it until now when I could process it better. I guess it's better to look at it as a factor but I don't discount that it had a lot to do with his mental health at the time. I just learned that suicide was illegal in most western countries until the 60s, 70s, and 80s (some parts of the US). No wonder there is shame and stigma attached to it.

Role of Inflammation in Suicide: From Mechanisms to Treatment
https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2016116

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: sanmagic7 on June 04, 2022, 02:46:47 PM
hey, dolly,

just a counterpoint thought - maybe trauma is the basis for neuroinflammation, rather than the other way around.  i know trauma can change the brain, lessen parts (such as in my case, the inability to feel/express emotions) or over-activate parts (startle response). 

as i've thought about this relationship thing, why i've gotten into so many neg. ones, i think, for one, the behavior of the other person felt 'familiar', as in i'd encountered it in my family, (my S was npd, as was my ex, my D1, and my first T) and two, i was so eager for some attention, touch, love that i was satisfied for a long time w/ the crumbs i was thrown.  very sad, indeed, but also very difficult to break that pattern.

so glad you're finding some connection at the new gym.  wonderfully important.  love and hugs :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on June 04, 2022, 05:10:20 PM
Hi Dollyvee,

I've been interested in what you've written about neuroinflammation, and it makes sense to me. 

I'm glad you've been finding the new gym to be a good place to be, and I hope you'll have more good interactions there in the coming days/weeks/months.

Sending you hugs   :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 05, 2022, 11:08:43 AM
Thanks San - I mean, who's to say it's not?  :Idunno: I think until the research is done with both neuroinflammation and childhood trauma in mind, there won't be a definitive answer. So, studies need to include the relationship between both of these things and how the interplay between them affects us in a neuropsychiatric way. I've posted a screen shot of what I was referring to but it needs to be approved first. I can say, for me, that I've noticed the changes in my behaviour and anxiety with regards to inflammation. When I ate gluten the last time was a big eye opener how much it influenced that "sad for me/feeling sorry about my life" feeling. I hadn't felt it for ages and then all of a sudden there it was. There's research showing the connection between anhedonia (what I think you're referring to) and childhood trauma and how affects the dopaminergic systems in the brain. That being said, mycotoxins do something very similar by interfering with dopamine as I'm finding out. I've had my own experiences with isolation and feeling pleasure, and it will be interesting to see how detoxing this stuff affects that. What I'm interested in is sorting these things to hopefully get better. If I can separate gluten anxiety, for example, from mycotoxin anxiety from the anxiety I feel when I have to deal with certain people at work, then hopefully I can unpack the feelings around the ones actually related to trauma (work stuff). Hope you find some space to deal with that stuff that comes up for you too  :hug:

Thanks Hope - I do like it there and feel more relaxed feeling there and doesn't feel so "competitive" which is nice. Hope you're doing well  :hug:

I did have an experience at the gym yesterday that I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this morning, and it just makes me realize how much is going on under the surface maybe. Looking back over my posts the past week or so, I realize too how much it has been like an "opening up" since I started this treatment. There's just all this stuff coming out - haha.

This morning I was remembering how I felt agitated afterwards grocery shopping and on the ride home. Physically the sauna felt much more difficult this time and was wondering if I was detoxing a lot of stuff as it was much more of a struggle to be in there this time. I was also thinking about taking NAC and how much irritation/irritability seemed to stop/go away when I take it. I also wondered if the irritation was due in part as well to the people that were in there and maybe they're not mutually exclusive.

I was in the sauna and a group of older men came in, probably in their 60's or 70's. There's something about that age bracket maybe (?) where I feel like there's a sense of entitlement. Anyways, one had a birthday and made a comment about it being a dirty French number. So, the other guy asked him if he was 96. After he said it, it looked right at me as if it would bother me, or to get a rise out of me. I think I may have turned my head when he said that, or the look came afterwards when I was leaving. I left shortly after because it I think the heat was getting to me. I feel like I do a good job of avoiding people like that so I don't have to deal with what comes up. For whatever reason, I ended up watching the the documentary on Netfilx called, "The Paedophile Hunter." I felt like, or realized, or thought, feared etc that the attitudes of the men in that doc seemed similar to the guys in the sauna. I realized this morning that my "pedo alarm," or uncomfortableness I feel around certain men went off when one of them sat by me. I don't know how to describe it, like a negativity, that it's a constant battle/power struggle on some level with you. I didn't even realize I had one, or how much I am aware of stuff like that --like really aware on some level deep down--until writing it out this morning in my paper journal.

I realized too that these men and their attitudes reminded me of my gf and then I dissociated after writing it in my paper journal. An incident came up that happened when I was 26. I'll tw it but I don't know if it was that graphic, or maybe I'm just minimizing it.

TW~

I was taking a bus from Glasgow to Edinburgh to visit a place a lived for a short time while travelling. While I was on the bus, my lower back felt hot for a while and I realized that the man behind me had pressed his hand (oh god I hope it was his hand, I never considered it might be something else) through the crack in the seat to where the small of my back must have been showing slightly.

TW end~

I was so in shock I think I stuffed my jacket down there, and was frozen. I didn't get up to tell the driver anything. I think I was so scared for my safety. I didn't report it to the police. My mind was racing about what to do. When I got to the hostel I told them what happened and they were shocked. I don't think I've ever thought about that incident really or unpacked it. I feel like it was so buried in shame or something else, while at the same time, definitely colours how I feel around men sometimes I think. I don't know, I think it's connected to other stuff as well. It was just really present this morning and I felt it. I also thought about my mom and her calling my gm to say why didn't she do anything, and if I was living my m's SA experiences or if something happened to me too.

I've been reading someone's experiences with mycotoxins and they reckon that it messes up our limbic nervous system and our sense of safety. So, we feel unsafe all the time because of this stuff. It's really interesting and I'm fascinated that this could be a side effect. I've felt this way most of my life. This is also an interesting article that  I came across. I think his response might be different as his sensitivity seemed to happen all of a sudden/all at once, or maybe there is a genetic difference which made his reaction more extreme? But am wondering if it can happen gradually over time as well. I'm also curious if my feelings and emotions about the above incident came about because I'm starting to give my limbic system a bit of a rest by detoxing so that these feelings can come up; I'm not stuck in alert! alert! mode.

https://drruscio.com/brain-stuck-in-fight-or-flight-mode/

It wouldn't let me add the second photo even though the file size was quite small but here's a link to the post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CeQwfegupcr/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 06, 2022, 08:49:55 AM
Called my aunt last night. I figured I would not do the messaging thing. Different generation, different communication methods. I brought up the mold stuff and how it was affecting me and how it could have likely affected dad, that he was showing quite a few symptoms. She had some experience with helping people apply for grants for mold remediation and knew how badly it can affect one's health. I think she took it on board and said that no one would have ever considered it back then; that people wouldn't have even known to wear a respirator. Thinking about it now, I guess it took a long time to sink in for me as well because I grew up never knowing that it was an issue. Oh that's just mold, it's not great for you but had no idea, like a lot of people, how bad it can be. It was actually my dad's birthday yesterday and felt good to talk about it.

Looking back, I think my issues at university with insomnia and not being able to complete papers happened after I had moved out and into a basement suite in my second year. I bet there was some sort of water damage/leak/mold in there that caused these things to come on all of a sudden, but at the time, I just chalked it up to family stuff.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on June 06, 2022, 03:23:45 PM
Mold's yucky, for sure.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 10, 2022, 07:27:50 AM
After 10 years, I'm so glad I have test results to show what's going on with me and don't have to be gaslit by doctors or anyone else anymore, telling me that I'm making this up or it's all in my head; that it's what I'm eating or it's not that bad. I knew that I was listening to my body and something wasn't right even if other people didn't believe me.

I've also been thinking how similar this experience was to other experiences in my life of looking to adults for answers and remaining unheard; being gaslit into thinking that it wasn't really there or maybe it was me just because other people didn't understand it, or chose not to. I was also thinking how an illness like this, or having a response like this, also keeps you in a hypervigilant state on a body/unconscious level. As most mold is hidden, my body was probably hyperaware of things that I had no idea about, and would be impacted by things that I couldn't see/didn't know were there. Not to mention doing nerve damage which impacts the vagus nerve.

I'm reading through Toxic now by Neil Nathan and he talks about nerve damage including to the vagus nerve. I learned that the lymph nodes and mycotoxins are related. The body removes mycotoxins via the lymph nodes and there are lymph nodes running down the side of the neck with a cluster where I have my cervical instability. The last time I went to the chiropractor after I started on binder, the base of my neck was so sore and tender. But it's all starting to make sense.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on June 10, 2022, 03:52:17 PM
Even though I'm sorry you feel ill I'm glad you have an answer that ties it all together for you. Best of luck to you and your healing.  :grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on June 14, 2022, 12:18:45 AM
 :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 16, 2022, 11:18:51 AM
Thank you Armee and Larry

The past week has been interesting though not really great. I feel as if there is a web inside my head, and a pressure at the base of my skull. I'm noticing I'm much more amped up about things, and unsettled. I'm becoming aware that this is probably something to do with the mycotoxins activating my nervous system as the exit my body. Not great, but a new awareness/understanding I guess. I've also had an uncomfortable work call with someone, being reprimanded for something that really had nothing to do with me when they were upset about something else.

Really good talk with T and am thankful that she's been understanding about all of this over the last six years; that I don't have to really explain it. Although, I feel like I do and am still aware, protecting myself, against reactions.

I woke up around 4am the other morning and just felt that it's not my fault. That years of people putting their opinions on my about my weight for example, my m included, and feeling like I had to do something about it, or that it was at the back of my mind about "maybe it is what I'm eating;" and it's not. It's literally nothing to do with not doing "something right or wrong." I feel relief at having something to support that and not having to feel alienated because I don't know what's going on. Again, it just feels so similar, a carry on, of what happened growing up and I can understand why it affects me. It was really easy for my family to blame me for things that happened, without understanding, and they often did. I then in turn blamed myself and why couldn't I just be x or do x.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on June 16, 2022, 02:12:47 PM
I relate so much to having been trained to blame yourself and try to fix yourself when you were never the problem. It's really sticky and difficult to get over. It still trips me up. It's a weird protective mechanism...to blame yourself and beat yourself up...instead of the people who are hurting you emotionally. And yet it seems to be an almost necessary approach to surviving life with someone with a PD. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on July 03, 2022, 05:44:56 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I found what you wrote about experiencing the web inside your head, and the pressure at the base of your skull to be interesting.  I experience pressure and pain in the left side of my head, around the eye socket area, and sometimes think I have some kind of tumour inside, but I don't think it's that. 

I hope that you are ok, and I wanted to send you a supportive hug, if that's ok  :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on July 08, 2022, 02:38:12 AM
hi dolly,   thinking about you....   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on July 16, 2022, 02:02:49 AM
 :wave:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 01, 2022, 12:28:12 PM
Thank you all for stopping by  :sunny:

I've had some experiences lately which have brought up my coping mechanisms (people pleasing) in a way that I could look at them in a new light. It's hard to see things for who/what they are and not what I would like, imagine, or need them to be.

I was speaking to a potential date and I didn't really want to have sexy chat with this person even though it seems so widespread on dating apps. I wanted to put up a boundary but it really came up that I couldn't do that because they would reject me. Or that's what I believed. But another part was like no, you have to do this for you; this is what feels good for you. It's not too crazy, it doesn't mean you're less because you don't want to do it. I think it's hard to let go of that fantasy of how we want to see things based on what we needed growing up. As I found out, this person is/was probably emotionally unavailable and I would've been choosing someone like my mom, again.

I read a good book called "The Game of Desire" about dating and desire, but more of a dating makeover book. You make a checklist of the things you're looking for in a partner and it came up that when I meet someone who has those qualities I want, I self reject, or immediately have negative thinking that it won't happen; that they won't be looking for "someone like me." T brought it up that I'm giving my power over to these people, and putting them on a pedestal. Thinking that they have something I don't etc. I did this a lot growing up, but then I can understand that and where it comes from too. My m used to tell me that so and so had done something so much better or got much better grades on their report card etc. The things I did were never good enough.

Instead of dealing with the mold in the apartment, the landlord put my rent up 30%, and still hasn't gotten back to me when the issue will be resolved. I spoke with a lawyer and had to threaten them with a claim for damages. I hate being in this environment but I don't think I should have to pay for moving and new furniture etc to replace the moldy stuff. I felt so much better after being out of this place for a while. I forgot that I had sent the LL photos in last year showing the mold growing (even though I didn't specifically say: mold!) and that they've known about it for all this time. I wonder about "seeing the good in people" and being too trusting with people like this and the people I choose to date. T has also talked about a healthy ruthlessness which I feel like I shy away from until I get in these situations and then get angry. This is something I would like to change.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Blueberry on August 01, 2022, 04:54:06 PM
Oh man, what is it with these landlords?? :pissed: :pissed:

Good luck moving forwards on the healthy ruthlessness >:D  ;D
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 07, 2022, 11:41:36 AM
Thank you Blueberry - I definitely feel torn about "trusting" the other person to do the right thing and now I have to take them to court to "stand up for myself." I think definitely patterns from growing up playing out.

Some thoughts on. dating/relationships that I'm processing right now. I wonder how these things are different for people with narcissistic parents? I think I've been focused on, pick a good one, don't pick a narc. But I also think there's a deep part that doesn't want people close because I know how much they can take and how smothering that feels. On the surface, I guess I see the things like I'm not good enough, they'll leave because of it, but there's also a shock (I don't know what else to call it) when people get close, like it's too much.

Maybe these things are preverbal, in the womb or as a young baby. I just get the impression of people taking things from me. I guess that's why we put up boundaries but it's hard for that part to see it's healthy selfishness when we want to do things for the people we loved. Especially as a young child. I guess it was conditioning to do those things in that way, but also as a child you just give freely to your parents and don't expect that it will be taken advantage of.  Same with trusting in dating and relationships I think for me. Maybe it's that young part giving expecting them to be fair in return.

***
Coming back and thinking about it more: am reading a book on seduction as recommended by the author of the other dating book and the idea just makes me freeze. Essentially, it's a mental game of power and while I think I can and do do this is life, to be conscious of it makes me shut down. Like I can't be inauthentic, I can't do those things. Is it because it dangerous to do those things? That I actually don't want someone close to me like that (sexually or that it could lead to sex and that makes me shut down?). I guess as a people pleaser, I had no "authority" to reject advances and it would leave me in a precarious/dangerous situation. The other part of me sees that these could be enjoyable exchanges, being in my body and feeling the "chase." The chase is something I've always hated, always given me anxiety.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: rainydiary on August 07, 2022, 09:50:16 PM
Dolly, I am catching up on your journal.  I resonate with reflecting on relationships and how unsteady they can feel.  I hope that you find some ease in navigating.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on August 12, 2022, 06:06:37 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Sending you a supportive hug  :hug: 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 21, 2022, 09:34:44 AM
Thank you rainy and Hope  :)

I think there's a lot going on right now that I feel overwhelmed and upset by. I had the Environmental Health official over to look at the mold in the flat last week and he told me that he's seen worse and you should see what's out there. He basically eyeballed the flat and that qualifies as an inspection, checking to make sure the windows open (obviously it must be the tenants fault that they're not airing it out properly). At one point he even said to me, when asking why didn't the landlord do something about it over a year and a half ago when I first mentioned it, that what had I done, I could have called EA then. I feel gaslighted and like I have no rights here, and somehow it's my responsibility for paying money to live in a moldy flat. It feels insane. I looked up what would happen back in my home city and landlords would have to do something about the mold right away (you would have to prove it's moldy first) and then it would pass an inspection before it was deemed safe. In my mind this is not eyeballing the repairs but actual air quality or ERMI testing to show it's safe. Though I will probably look into it to see what kind of testing it is just so I can verify that there's a reason I'm feeling like this is crazy.

I was also at work this week and two collegues were talking about sexual harrasment on the job and how one of them (female) "also makes inappropriate comments" and how guys said things to her all the time when she first started out. I felt like they were aware of recent things that happened to me and were trying to normalize the workplace behaviour, and basically normalize sexual harrasment, and that it was me that was the problem. They're both established and the environment works for them but it doesn't make what's going on ok. I get how they can think like this but I don't understand how? How can you try and legitimize sexual harassment. I feel like these people are just two more bullies in life and I can see them for what/who they are, but it upsets me that they have power at work and they are trusted; I feel like I'm the only one standing up against this stuff sometimes and it gives me a lot of anxiety/makes me not want to say anything. It also brings me back to growing up when I did speak out and was punished for it.

Knowing the differences in attitudes where I grew up and where I am now, it's hard to reconcile them. I've been feeling like it's an uphill battle staying here and fighting against the cultural differences and why am I exerting all this effort to do so? I've started applying for jobs back home and will try if possible to split my time. I feel like I will be blowing up the career I took so long to build here but I also feel like the trade off will be in quality of life.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 23, 2022, 11:01:26 AM
Just putting some thoughts down.

Watching Children of the Underground and it's bringing up a lot. I guess the memory of growing up in a world where it felt like the people who were supposed to protect you didn't and having to navigate that? That at this time, none of that stuff was openly talked about or just starting to be talked about, and it was likely that if you did (at least imo), people would gaslight you or paint you as a hysterical woman. That it was a very big feeling of being powerless.

Also, continuing to read this book on seduction. It's crazy, I feel like this is a thing people actually want, to be liked and close to people (if that's the right phrase) and I also feel like it's not on my radar in that way. Yeah I like people and want them to be around but thinking about it in those terms makes me shut down. In my mind it's just friendship and happiness?

I looked up the connection between seduction and narcissists and it's a close one where apparently relationships are like a game to get what they need and discard you; where you don't matter.  No wonder this brings up a lot in dating, relationships. I feel like I have to prove that I would never do anything to hurt someone, that I am "sweetness and light" (this is an exaggeration but the idea is there), like I can't engage in this behaviour even though it's a normal part of dating. My brain takes it to the extreme, like I'm not a good person who will set boundaries and keep their feelings in mind etc but goes straight for full on narc version. Maybe that's what I grew up with and knew to respond to.

Apparently, seduction and seducers offer pleasure and I've never had an easy time accepting that pleasure is a part of life, that people do things to enjoy them; it's always felt wrong or that I'm guilty somehow of doing it. The book also mentioned that pleasure is an escape from responsibilities. Maybe because I was parentified as a child, it felt wrong to not have responsibilities?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 26, 2022, 08:27:59 AM
I don't know if it's the md or other stuff but I feel a lot coming up after work this week. Hugs and closeness (?) or feeling more connection with collegues in a way, less caring about people; feeling I stood my ground with a group of very bitchy women (a colleague validated this that she sat down and had to leave the room because the atmosphere wasn't right - but I also replay what the repercussions will be, will I just be knocked down in the future; why can't I be different, more open and accepting).

Though other stuff too bubbling under the surface after watching that documentary - is there an element of sexuality in this connection with collegues? Most of the connections were with men (though I do work with mostly men and feel I'm more of "tomboy"). Is there something in me that turns this closeness/connection into something sexual...is there a part that does know seduction very well in that sense but it's also a young part that didn't know any better? On some level I feel like this is something that is expected of me (I guess maybe a lot of women feel this way) it's just somehow it seems to go awry? I don't know how to explain it. Or maybe there's a part of me that wrestles with this sexuality internally and I wonder why does my mind go there and use this as an outlet? Maybe a form of dissociating?

I read on another forum that md will bring up stuff from your childhood and I feel like I do feel like I'm maybe more like "myself" from the past. I think these issues were there under the surface but maybe now I'm being confronted with them again but I also feel like I'm more established and better equipped to see myself as an adult that's handling them.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 27, 2022, 09:17:40 AM
Had an experience with my chiropractor the other day. She is in the city and I am not, which I think she's aware of. I was driving to be at the appointment and hit a wall of traffic, much more than normal. So I called and arranged for 30 mins later as that spot was free. When the traffic wasn't moving, I called to say that I would be 10-15mins late for that and she called back to tell me that she had to be out of the office and could we reschedule (after I had basically been in traffic for two hours). I did something to my neck and everything has been really stiff and quite painful for the last few days, so I called the office and made another appointment with someone else.

I guess these are old feelings coming up but I just feel very irritated that she couldn't wait 10mins? I don't know what these old feelings are - that I feel like I'm at a disadvantage and doing my best to be there, have pain etc, hit with extenuating circumstances (I guess I should have known it was long weekend Friday traffic but at noon?) and someone that I was open and thought I was connected with, flakes on me. Part of me knows that it's her practice and she has every right to do that but also that it was more likely to go do something fun on the long weekend. I feel like I sound jealous or something by saying that. Again, I feel conflicted about this and don't really want to get caught out again, so I will probably start looking for someone closer. I guess this is probably also me needing validation for my anger which I was never allowed to express.

On a side note, I think perhaps the pain could be somatic and related to the feelings coming up with MD recently, even though it happened while I was lifting something over my head, there was tenderness around my middle back before that which is interesting.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on August 27, 2022, 05:21:14 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I felt frustration and annoyance towards your chiropractor when you described what happened, and how she wanted you to cancel, purely for being 10 minutes late or so, and for very good reason (with the traffic etc).  She was lucky you contacted her, as you could have just come late, and she'd have been waiting.  But you were considerate and you contacted her.  I completely think your thoughts about her flakey-ness are appropriate.  She didn't really treat you well.    I completely think your anger is worthy of validation, and I wish you'd been allowed to express yourself in that way in the past, and the present and for the future.  I relate to what you said, as I also feel I wasn't allowed to express my feelings of anger - or indeed many feelings generally.

Anyway, Dollyvee, I wanted to say I hope that your neck gets better soon, and that you get some relief from the pain.  I hope the appointment with the other person went ok.  Maybe that person will be the right person for you.  I hope so.

Sending you a hug, Dollyvee,  :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 28, 2022, 09:31:29 AM
Thanks Hope  :hug: I appreciate you writing that. Sometimes I go back and forth a lot with these things but I did feel angry about it and still working out what to do with that anger when it comes up and what it was (boundary violation) and what to do about it (confronting people never worked in the past, so I had to sit with it alone etc).

It's a very familiar feeling with these things. T and I have talked about healthy selfishness but what is that line? I don't want to be a psychopath that just gets my way all the time (I'm guessing that's the inner critic taking things to the extreme). I don't want to not call and just show up because in my mind feeling like I'm doing a bad thing and not considering the other person's feelings/time etc, but then when things like this happen I end up feeling angry that the same consideration hasn't been extended to me; that maybe they've had healthy selfishness (I don't know if it's that?) and I'm the one on the receiving end having to pick up all the pieces/responsibility.

After I she called I did think I could've just showed up and not called. I don't know it's like something in me won't allow myself to do stuff like that. It's really "bad" to behave that way or something. On the other hand, I do think we should be considerate of other people, but also doesn't feel like that's the world we live in.

Something has come up that I haven't been aware of in a while, maybe it's been there, operating under the surface undetected. I used to feel "unsure" about leaving the house though I don't know what the right word is. I don't think it was a fear? It was maybe just anxiety of dealing with people, anxiety over wearing the right thing (being the right person?), anxiety over what I was doing - was it the "right" thing to do etc and sometimes I would just waste time going over the options then not feeling settled when I was out. I remember this from my early 20s when I left uni and went to art school. I guess it was the first time I was doing what I wanted. It could also be a mold thing. It came up again yesterday, thinking about going to the gym and I felt like I wanted to go but didn't want to deal with people, but that I should do something and get some exercise. I went on a walk and I think the anxiety followed me. Normally, I feel quite connected walking in the dark and sure of my footing but I had a lot of intrusive thoughts I think. I heard a car coming up behind me and was worried they would see my blond hair and think I'm weak etc/make assumptions about me (I don't know - I think it's interesting that weak came up jn). So, I started to put my hair up and then fell all of a sudden. Part of me wonders if this is a little self sabtoage for going out because I didn't feel safe. It was always the wrestle of these fears don't make sense you should be going out and doing things, you just can't stay in all the time. Although, it's also really hard to just sit and be with that anxiety at home.

I felt moments of connectedness as I had a little meditation and it was a deep feeling that was nice but not something I could sit with as this anxiety came in and out. I think moments of deep feeling like that also cause me anxiety. LIke there's a feeling but I have to push it away, that it's not safe to be in myself. I also didn't take any binders until after I got back from my walk yesterday and wondering if that contributed to the anxiety/effect.

I have been having moths fly at me for the past week or so. I read that they encourage you to turn your attention inward to get the answers you are looking for. "They show up to strengthen the trust and bond you have with yourself so that the first person you go to for answers is yourself." It's funny because I've been thinking about what if I didn't get external validation from others, what would I do then? I was never allowed to trust myself.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 29, 2022, 09:27:05 AM
Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers

I can't believe it took me so long to read this book. I guess we find things when we're meant to.

Also thinking that gf, and not just sgf, was probably a narcissist or had very strong narc tendencies which I never thought about before. (Or did he have narc tendencies which were then made worse by gm m and gm?) I don't really know the right way to say how it feels like an a-ha moment as he was such a big part of my life and learned a lot from him, but also it was very clear what happened if I "stepped out of line" as a teenager, and how much easier it was to go along and keep the peace even if it meant sacrificing myself. I did step out of line later and rebelled but I also felt like a big part of me was torn because underneath it all, I felt like I was jeopardizing my survival on some level. Thinking about it now, it is such a task for an 8, 10, 12, 16 year old to say no, this is my life and what I want and I feel and how I think the world works against (int word choice) a family who doesn't validate that and wants you to be something else, mostly to suit themselves and make themselves feel better. It's crazy making because there was also a loving side and I felt a lot of love towards him. I remember he stopped playing chess with me when I was 10 or 11 because I beat him. At the time, I thought it was funny, I beat you etc. but it is a messed up dynamic looking back. Just before he died when I went to visit him, he told me how smart I always was and I told him I learned it from him.

Also realizing that even though I rejected what my gps/family wanted for me, the specific life etc, and thought I was doing my own thing, I think I very much carried an ideal vision of myself and who I thought I had to be in order to be successful. It wasn't necessarily about me or what I was feeling,  but I guess who I felt I had to change into---look, how I present myself--- in order to have this life I wanted--family, etc---which boils down to being loved. If I could be like this, then I would be loved basically. I think it was the narc programming but in a different package and on the other side it was still me, still being less than. I think I'm beginning to see that people like me as I am now, when I'm not "perfect." It's not the family/ idea that I had in mind but maybe that was the problem in the first place; if it didn't fit my vision of how things were "supposed" to be (for whatever reason, I don't know where it came from yet), it wasn't good enough and to be loved gave me an intense sadness instead of feeling loved and what I thought that would feel like.

Interesting that when I was rereading this post, I came back and edited it which I put in bold. I feel like it shows how torn I was/am when looking back at things with my family and how difficult it was to say well, it was bad because this happened, when there was a lot of times I felt "loved" and that's what was important to me. I guess it's hard to determine if that love was conditional, or to separate the feeling of feeling loved/the good times with conditional love. There are some very good examples in the book that fit my grandfather as well which is what prompted the above entry. I'm also remembering when I saved up all my allowance to buy gifts at our Christmas School Fair. I think I was 7 at the time, so it meant that I was probably using the slave wages my sf was paying me for allowance-- $1/week-- and bought my gf what I could afford, a $2 fridge magnet, which said My Grandfather is a Star. He made fun of me for wasting my money on when he opened it--how could she spend her money on this garbage? He did keep it on his fridge though for 30 years. Stuff like this was erased by the family/me and glossed over for who he was/they were. So, my feelings were glossed over = not important.

Another long post which I didn't intend but am thinking and just working some things out. Thanks for reading if you made it that far.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on August 29, 2022, 10:57:33 PM
 :wave:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 01, 2022, 07:33:14 AM
Hey Larry  :wave:

I had my first appointment with a new chiropractor yesterday and during my exam/run down he said that my body was in defense mode for fight or flight, and that this pain in the hip and shoulder is because it's kind of turning your body as a defense. A couple things: wow, bang on and also defensive again because it's vulnerable to have people know those things.

I was reading a piece in Will I Ever Be Good Enough and had a feeling of familiarity. Maybe I've read it before but couldn't really absorb what it was saying at the time? But I can't remember. The feelings of anxiety coming up around going out (and being myself) and how I tried to protect myself when I heard the  car coming and had the fall make sense because I couldn't put myself out there growing up --it was criticized and wrong. After all this work I've been doing, I can't rationalize or think that part away. Those feelings are still there underneath.

I didn't realize that I likely have the self-sabotaging part that's active. She posits that some people are over-achievers and others self-saboteurs. I guess I always thought of myself as an over-achiever, but I think that's me being accomplishment focused (and I am starting to see how this affects me at work and relationships). Underneath it, there is the part that wants to play it safe because what if things don't work out (at least that's what I rationally tell myself---that I need money, safety etc but I think/know this is also me abiding to my family's programming to some extent) and it's a form of self-sabotage from taking risks. I think it's me doing things to be the image of who I (my family thought) I should be. I do sometimes feel like I have this Terminator vision that starts evaluating risk and all the things that could go wrong (it's not necessarily a bad thing at work) but I think I'm now feeling where it's coming from and why it's there in the first place. I don't know how to describe it, yes I was aware of this before but maybe I wan't able to feel what it was like for me at the time?

Some things in the book that are just beginning to sink in:

"The daughter of a narcissistic mother has unmet needs and therefore displays some neediness. The codependent behavior is a disguise to cover up the neediness and display strength and competence. When under stress, her neediness will come out and she will look like the dependent."

"Your child's accomplishments are not who your child is." (This was the only thing I had growing up or that mattered to my family.)

"I didn't love him then the way I am able to now. Or my children. It took time to learn it. I used to feel it for my cat, but not for people. All my feelings were numb, even the good ones." (That m couldn't deal with feelings and I had to numb everything; when gm and I would take about feelings it was a sense of false safety and as I grew up, I realized I couldn't have authentic feelings with her either especially anger or any criticism of her behaviour; my gfs feelings were paramount too, I did what made him happy; it didn't matter what I thought)

 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 05, 2022, 01:55:44 PM
After reading the article Hope posted and about Betrayal Trauma Theory, it's been sinking in that this is what I've done to protect myself. Feeling torn between seeing the loving times and all my other feelings, anger, confusion, guilt etc it makes sense that we hide/create an illusion/can't see the truth about what is really happening in the family because we need that attachment to survive.

Also, I guess maybe it's not that my mother didn't love me, it was that there was no way for her to ever see me or meet my needs. I don't know, this is a tough one because when someone is projecting all their negative feelings onto you, is envious and critical of you (which I am absorbing and believing about myself), it's hard not to feel where the love is in that.

Learning about narc mothers and how they project their feelings onto you and as children, we internalize them. They are also envious of us. It makes sense that I can't tolerate this behaviour or situations where it arises, that I minimize it or make myself overly friendly etc, as well as probably self-sabotaging so I don't have to deal with it. There's only one instance of specific envy/jealousy that I remember when I was a teenager. I feel like my m (and gm) operated from a very young place and that their feelings were never well defined, but I think I picked up on the overall message. It just left me confused as to why I was feeling like I didn't want people to be jealous of me. Maybe that's the betrayal trauma operating as well. I'm wondering now if this really loud, rock like stomping part was not a part of me but the projected feelings of my m and is also why I had to freeze them? I guess it was the same as sealing up my m part. T said at the time that maybe that wasn't a good idea but I don't think she understood what that part was (nor did I). This is also why it's hard to open up and listen to to other people about what's going on internally.

I also wonder if I've been in an EF. When I think about these feelings I had dealing with this envy, the stuff from that time, it just feels so draining, and I do feel helpless but I know that I'm not and that I have been resourceful in the past. I think I'm going to try and start focusing on these feelings and who they belong to; where is the critical voice coming from and what happens if I just say no? (All these other feelings of guilt, sadness come up but I guess that's the grief I have to work through). I wonder what part it is that feels so drained by this?

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 05, 2022, 02:10:22 PM
Also want to put this here because I want to remember it/think it's important and not necessarily something I did/was able to do in the past. It was definitely not ok to show emotions in my house growing up and I think it's still difficult when they come up now. It's probably still an automatic response of shut them down:

"Eventually, giving myself this time, my tears would begin to leak and then pour. The trick was to let them be. To feel them. This is difficult when you have been taught to stuff it or suck it up or not to feel anything, to be phony, to pretend everything is all right when it isn't.

Sit with those feelings. Sit with the pain. Manage the anxiety and depression that come with it so you can work through it. Don't try to talk yourself out of it. Others around you may try to do this. No one wants to see you hurt, and your loved ones may not understand how important this is, so don't listen to them. Let yourself feel! When the old denial tries to reassert itself, or the critical internal messages begin again, chase them away. Tell yourself that you deserve this time to heal.

It is common for you to feel like a wimp or to call yourself a baby. I do this on a regular basis, even now when I have feelings to process. I have to tell myself, "It's okay to be a baby right now. Babies are sweet and innocent." You won't be a baby forever, I promise. It doesn't last, because you work through it in this very way"
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on September 06, 2022, 05:09:06 AM
Our households sound really similar, Dolly. Thanks for sharing these excerpts and reactions to them.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 06, 2022, 11:15:08 AM
Thank you Armee - I recommend it. Reading it now is helping to put a lot of different pieces together that I've been working on in therapy. I think it's very difficult to feel ok to have space for feelings when they were seen as dangerous growing up.

I think I'm definitely in an EF. I have received some cancellations with work and my mind is racing about money now, the cost of living crisis, the comments the other week that I felt were directed at me for saying something about sexual harassment - I'm not liked, I'm stepping out of line (for standing up, for being me), I'm not going to work, how am I going to survive? I'm hearing t this morning saying that I've been saying these things for the six years since I've been seeing her and it's never happened (though there are people I;ve stopped working with and who have stopped calling). Part of my job is also being sociable and making connections and I've been finding that's difficult when I have certain views about how I've been treated, and it's getting harder to accept that behaviour for me (not that it should be accepted but a lot of people do nothing and it's just "the way it is").

Rereading what I wrote this week and I wonder if it stems from writing about my gf. He was the financial support in the family and we had to do everything to make him happy otherwise we'd be cut off (ie wouldn't survive which I think is how it felt framed by my gm). I went out and did my own thing, did get cut off, but he also helped me out later (which I basically had to beg him to do [help with my tuition for my masters- this was important as long as it was education it was ok, anything else probably not] even though he said he would at first because I chose a school in a country "he didn't like"). I think a lot of  adult time in this career has been proving to them (my family? myself?) that I can make it and I can survive, but I don't think that's the right mindset. As in, it just has to be safe so I can eat etc but it's not necessarily about putting myself into it. I think it's always about survival. I do feel like I could be more engaged/more creative but I am always worried about being liked and hired again. I can see how that is maybe similar to having to please my gf for money (as well as proving myself and my work for my m's approval) and would bring up feelings of not being able to survive.

Funny how I can seesaw between those two feelings so fast as well - I'm liked and things are going ok in the other post to I'll never work again and I'm a terrible person.

When I found the doctor's notes about my gm's treatmemt, it was really apparent how she couldn't be on her own, doing things for herself, that there was always some sort of failure. She was cold calling but it wasn't working. She couldn't get her real estate career together and she was going to work as a check out person. I remember her telling me it was because these guys came in at work and undercut her. In the notes she kept going back to my gf even though he didn't treat her well and I don't think he was supportive of her career. I think she was dependant on him and in her mind, she needed him to survive and that was that. Perhaps she self-sabotaged her opportunities because she thought she couldn't make it on her own. Meanwhile, she told me about the men that held her back etc. She found someone to take care of her in my step gf and she never worked again. I felt like I always wanted to make my own way and not be dependant on someone like that, but it's also eye opening after I just read what I wrote, that maybe I am repeating her self sabotaging patterns. There's that thing in me telling me I'm not good enough, I'm not going to make it, that I need someone else to do it. I think these things are also maybe generational as the times did bascially dictate that women were to be in the home but I also feel like it's something deeper.

tl:dr am feeling like the anxiety coming up around work has to do with the internalized messages I received from my gm about being dependant on people and are a form of self sabotage as well as standing up for myself in my family and acknowledging what was going on meant I was cut off from real support, which meant survival. Even though I know I'm resourceful, it's hard seeing past these messages but maybe I need to recognize that they're not my messages/not my parts.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 07, 2022, 11:03:59 AM
So last week I had a dream (I didn't write it down because a part of me was scared I think) where I saw the women that came before my gm. I think there were five of them? Thinking about my entry yesterday and it brought me back to legacy burdens and how there is a continued way of thinking in my family and in me. There's also a fear in me about letting it go - what will happen etc. Maybe this (self-sabtoge?) is part of it too. I'm trying to remind myself that I am an adult now and not the young, helpless part I feel when this anxiety about letting go comes up.

I look at my gm who went back to a man who didn't treat her well because she thought it would provide (like a prince charming); my mother did it as well, choosing my awful sf instead of herself (and me); and I see it in myself too, ruminating about this guy the other month and the fantasy relationship I thought it might be (though it's come up before with other guys). I think it was also this way with my gm's mother as her father didn't sound like a nice person and when I looked at photos of the two of them, her m seemed to be enamoured with him. I would like to give this stuff back, or unburden it, and not carry it anymore. I also don't want to be scared about letting this stuff go.

It also strikes me how real this stuff is. This anxiety following me has consequences, that it impacts my behaviour and I fall and hurt my shoulder. The pain in my shoulder is now connected to these things. Anyways, this is not the lala land how things were supposed to be in my family, but a real cause and effect behaviour. It's not that my gm is always right and that is the way the world works (as she said) but this pattern of thinking brings about these things in my life; I'm organizing my life subconsciously in a way that makes what she said true or not.

I felt good after my entry yesterday. I felt less disorganized and more settled which was nice.

Listened to the Ann L Sinko talk on shame and legacy burdens today. I want to know more about this but there's not a lot of information out there. She said that these burdens get passed down through the rules of shame which are: be perfect, be in control, don't talk about anything or be vulnerable, don't trust. I mean that's my family creed right there.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 08, 2022, 03:44:05 PM
Also listened to the Michael Elko (?) IFS talk on shame and he said something that I thought was really profound for me:

IFS sees anxiety as parts that think they're bad.

How often did I feel, was I told that something I was doing wasn't right where I now second guess myself or feel anxious without even knowing where it's coming from - it's just always there. I think I need to connect to the part that is feeling/creating this anxiety and understand the shame or feeling of why they feel bad in the first place.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 11, 2022, 09:08:02 AM
I think I'm learning more about how my internal world is organized/process information. I realized on a walk a couple weeks ago that I haven't meditated really since I got back from my visit with family last Christmas. I was thinking it feels like I stop and start things, or pursue something and it fades out, but I don't think it's like that. It feels like I had a shock to my system that maybe froze or changed my thinking? Maybe another part came in and started running the show? I thought things were a certain way with my gf and then pow. I think it's a good example of how narcs operate and leave you with a false sense of reality. I'm also learning that children of narcissists have a very disorganized sense of self, which makes sense that there's no continuity when things like this happen.

I also felt that with IFS as well. I had great insight and some which I return to still now, but something happened and I wasn't able to progress further. I wonder if I got to a layer and  there was a protector that was like nope, but it doesn't feel conscious really. It's just like my attention shifts and maybe there's busyness inside, and when I try to check in it feels like it would be futile, or I'm just wasting my time (I don't know how to put it). Writing that down, I can see that that's just the essence of a protector and firefighter doing what they're supposed to do.

I took a different strain yesterday in MD'ing and I knew it was more potent and reduced my dose by about 1/3rd but I didn't realize how much more potent it was. I had an image of me pop up that was (I don't know how to really describe it accurately here as well) like bratty, a bit cunning (street smart?), greedy, trouble maker. My intention that I set beforehand was to find out more about the part(s) that are running the show that I guess I'm not aware of (thinking to above where I'm blocking out the poss NPD behaviour of my gf ). It made me think about the shadow self and am guessing that is my shadow.

I'm also trying to figure it out in a parts sense, but I haven't really resolved that. Shadows are parts of ourselves that we repress, so in a way they can be exiles? But I don't feel like this was an exile. I wonder if parts are experientially created in response to something that happened and the shadow is a manifestation of the things that were suppressed if that makes sense. So, a shadow is what happens because of what the exiles are exiled for, protectors protecting? I don't know if it's something we have direct access with.

It made me think about the times I was with my mom and felt I didn't measure up. That there was no room to be bratty etc. I guess parents don't want their kids to be that but I think in other families those things are talked through and resolved. This was something I had to cut off because it was unacceptable. I've been trying to work on being more open to that part/side and maybe hear what it has to say (though I don't think it's an exile?). I also did and exercise in another book called Children of the Self Absorbed a while ago where you were supposed to list your accomplishments and then recognize the positive qualities that helped you do that. It was really difficult to do that. I think we were supposed to list 8-10  accomplishments and I had maybe 2 at best, which I don't think is accurate. I'm finding myself coming back to that and thinking about it quite a bit - what stops me from recognizing these things. I think on some level I'm still locked into thinking about my life and self in a way that is safe and acceptable for my family. Doing things because it's what they would have thought was "good for me." Even now I wonder why it's so hard to question that. I guess there is the bratty shadow side that rebels against that but it's not like I give it a lot of credit for doing so, or understand the motivation for doing so.

Anyways  :hoovering: I will go back to reading Stanislav Grof which I'm really enjoying and hopefully cleaning the flat.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on September 12, 2022, 08:32:22 PM
Hi Dolly,

Your post makes me think about how all aspects of humanity are in all of us. Well....Maybe not in Sociopaths. But within the rest of us lives both goodness and brattyiness.

I can look back at my young adult life and clearly see that I had been taught how to love by people who were selfish, accusatory, jealous, controlling, sarcastic, transactional...  They'd taught me that was what love was. So as a young man, I may have been a lot kinder than any of them, but I was also using the tricks of the sociopath to get what I wanted at times. They were learned behaviors. I wasn't an actual sociopath, but I'd learned how to use some of their tricks. Today I look back in disbelief at how I behaved so differently than I do today. But I guess that comes with awareness. 

Again: Maya Angelou said it best: "Do the best you can until you know better. When you know better, do better."

On a spiritual plane, I think that we are all cut from the same cloth. Truly evil people came from the same human origins I did. There is a tiny little evil person within me too. I, however, also have a strong empathy for good, so I choose to live my life being kind.

My own personal belief is that we have caveman wiring at our absolute core. It's what my T calls our "lizard brain." That wiring is for survival and procreation. Sociopaths and NPDs are born at a rate of about 4% of the population. They stop advancing there. They are three-year-olds who never grow past the selfish desires to take what they can, to protect only themselves, to scream and pout and cry when they don't get what they want, to lie without reserve, and to survive, survive, survive at any cost. Healthy people, the other 96%, continue to grow emotionally past 3 years of age. We eventually grow consciences, personal accountability, open mindedness, love, care for others, patience, kindness, selflessness, and a deep appreciation for our connection to all other humans.

But at our core, that lizard brain lurks. It's our base wiring. All of us.  After my experience with alcohol and recovery, I personally came to believe that to be the reason addiction turns us into temporary, honorary sociopaths. Many addicts I know personally have told me that they remember the day a switch flipped off in their heads and they suddenly didn't care about anyone else anymore. Getting their booze, or drugs, or gambling, or whatever, meant everything to them, and family and loved ones became sources of cash to feed their addiction. These same people have told me that when they entered recovery, they also remember the day the switch flipped back on and they suddenly began to care about their loved ones again. It is my own personal observation, that the addiction eventually turned off the evolved brain, and left only the lizard brain to run its course unchecked.

So, in summary, I believe we're all sociopaths who grew consciences that keep our lizard brains in check. So there's a tiny little monster inside of me too. There's an angel on one of my shoulders and a demon on the other. But unlike a true Narcissist, I love and respect the angel more than I do the demon.  But that little Narcissist is deep inside each of us, making sure we survive each day.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on September 19, 2022, 12:55:56 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
You wrote so many interesting things here, and I hope to come back and re-read them, as I am interested in the shadow side of parts, and to the potential of repressed parts of ourself etc.  I am also hoping to look up Stanislav Grof now as well - or at least sometime soon, as I am intrigued.

I wanted to send you a hug of support, and also say that I appreciate you sharing your experiences.   :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 20, 2022, 10:34:19 AM
Thank you Papa Coco and Hope  :hug:

Papa Coco I can relate to what you're saying. For a long time (and I still do if I'm being honest), I thought is it me? Am I broken? Am I a narcissist too? They were things that we had to learn to do a certain way to survive in our families but also we weren't those things because we could never do them to someone else. I know if I do this it will have an effect on someone else that might upset them and I don't want that. Of course, the backlash is there too when setting boundaries. I'm hurting this person because I'm setting a boundary. Or that's what I'm perceiving. Oh that's actually healthy for me to not give everything to someone else? No one taught me that in my family of course. I'm still navigating healthy selfishness and narcissism too 

Hope - his work is really interesting for me right now. I think it makes me feel a little less crazy knowing that someone is writing about these experiences for what they are and not labeling them as psychosis or that the person is defective in some way.


I had a couple of disturbing dreams this week after watching the Prince Andrew video I spoke about elsewhere. I don't really know if those things are speaking about me or I'm just reacting to stuff that's going on, but it was very present this week in my thoughts and feelings.

There's a lot of stuff coming up right now. I feel like I had a power struggle this week with someone where I was standing up for my own internal world and they took it negatively. I was trying to ask for clarification about certain things so I could fit it in with my understanding and they were really condescending/short/took it as a challenge to their authority. Maybe on some level it was. So I left. I feel like this happens a lot. I have things that have happened that I need to make sense of, so I ask questions and am told who do I think I am (or where did I go to school - these were both doctors who told me that everything was in my head) . It's sad and alienating in a way but I also feel like I'm being true to myself for doing it. Then I feel like I always have to do everything the hard way  ;D

Anyways, I went and read more about the thing I needed to and found that it can happen in different ways. Maybe they said that and I misinterpreted what they were saying? I don't know. I know there is a big element of mistrust in my family and I wonder how I'm taking that on and maybe isolating myself because that belief is still operating somewhere in me.

I was doing energy work for the first time (well second technically) and was having issues orienting in the task, so I went and asked if any protectors operating could step back. I saw one and it looked like they were showing me a very bumpy road of what might happen. When I shared this, people seemed enthusiastic about it, but I couldn't help feeling/thinking about my gm being enmeshed with me because she didn't want me to get hurt/make the same mistakes she did, and feeling how much doubt I carry/have about my own actions because I worry if I'm making a mistake. This is for me to live my life but it's like on some level, that is stopping me from moving forward because what if?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 20, 2022, 10:44:42 AM
Going back to your comment PC, it brings up stuff and parts that I've seen in me that aren't mine but my m's (and probably gm's and her parents before her etc). I've been asking myself if that's the narc part of her (that I internalized willingly or not) because I saw it and knew it didn't belong to me? I do feel like the shadow was maybe a bit similar but not those things? I've been ruminating on it. I feel like the shadow was the bad stuff I had to get rid of to make me into the person they wanted me to be, which might be seen as just normal traits in other people. Something I'm trying to make sense of.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on September 20, 2022, 01:27:08 PM
I think a lot of us raised by narcissists/bpd always question..."wait is it me? am i the narcissist?" When I've had the same fear my T always reminds me that people who ask that are never the narcissist. You're not. Not at all.

I'm sorry people were condescending to you this week. When we've been told to not trust ourselves our whole lives it can be pretty devastating to try to trust ourselves, advocate for ourselves, and then be told we don't know what we are talking about. Keep trusting yourself. You know yourself best.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 23, 2022, 09:11:21 AM
So I had a bit of an odd session at the chiropractor yesterday. The day after I went last week, I started developing a rash over different parts of my body and torso and had some pretty big bruises in different places. I don't think he really did anything different, but maybe some more lymph work? I thought the mycotoxins might have moved out of the lymph glands. I don't know where he's intimating this from, but he asked me if I had a loss around 28 years old. My gf died when I was 30. I've been writing some stuff about him here lately and I guess having some realizations. He also said that it could be the kidneys and I don't think I've been drinking enough water really especially when I'm detoxing this garbage (mycotoxins) out of my system.

I also know that I developed a weird thing with something I was told in my early 20s wasn't a concern when I started IFS. It started developing cancerous like symptoms, which the dermatologist again confirmed wasn't cancerous. She told me it likely rubbed against my underwear, even though I've been wearing them for over a year and have more than one pair. I'm wondering if a part had a reaction to some of the work I did this week?

So, my intention for doing the energy work I did was to see the parts that were "running the show," which, even though I couldn't do the exercise, I did I think see one of those parts. Success I guess. It became really apparent that cptsd is a thing. I read up on this kind of work and it involves a lot of right brain activity. The left brain is the planning, analytical side exactly what we need to operate when we're hypervigilant. I found and article that describes the activity in brain hemispheres that also sums this up, that in PTSD the right side of the brain basically underfunctions, or there is disordered integration.

Psychological and physiological responses to stress: the right hemisphere and the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis, an inquiry into problems of human bonding

"Several studies point to physiological dissociation of hemispheric functions during alexithymia. This raises the question: What has been lost if in this condition the right side no longer fully contributes to integrated cerebral function? Right hemispheric damaged children lose critical social skills and in adults the related sense of familiarity critical for bonding is lost. Such losses of social sensibilities may account for the lack of empathy and difficulties with bonding found in sociopathy and borderline personality: conditions now believed to result from repeated psychological trauma during development. On the other hand, systems that promote right hemispheric contributions provide solacing access to a "Higher Power." They also appear to protect against socially disordered behavior, substance abuse, the failure of the HPA axis and some aspects of the pathophysiology of chronic disease."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8117582/

I found that a way to increase right and left side integration is to do the cross crawl which I'm going to start incorporating into my routine a couple of times a day. I do feel sort of different when I try it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on September 23, 2022, 11:20:22 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I remember having a rash appear on my body after doing a 'session' with someone who used a technique that appeared (in retrospect I realise this) to have communicated with an inner part of me.  So I'm wondering if the chiropractor has also somehow channeled into communicating with a part of you, and it's resulted in a rash of reaction.

Really interesting what you mentioned about the brain functioning and hemisphere differences. 

:hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 01, 2022, 01:34:29 PM
Thanks Hope  :hug:

When I thought about it some more, I realized that I was 28 when I moved overseas. I guess that could be a separation/loss from my family, more in the sense that I was finally on my own and going after the life that I wanted. I wonder if it has something to do with separating from my gm at that time who didn't want me to move away. It was also something that was so hard to do in a way but also felt very necessary. This also makes me think of my association that came up in my energy work with of my gm. Although, I don't really have a handle on everything there yet.  There's more random bits that came up during the energy work that could be associated with the things the chiro did, but I don't know/see quite how they fit yet.

The chiro today also told me that I'm left brain dominant which is interesting.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on October 02, 2022, 11:44:19 PM
 :wave:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 03, 2022, 11:26:30 AM
Hi Larry - I came on here to talk about watching The Bear on FX and you might like it or relate to it too

I read a review in the paper on Saturday for The Bear and it said something along the lines of "show this to someone if you want to kill them - it's so fast/intense that they can't help but to be overwhelmed by it."

So, I watched it and had to laugh (well sort of) because that is my life/experience growing up, what families are like (level of dysfunction, dealing with addiction and the fallouts), what I think it feels like and how I maybe cope with it now. I thought it was a really good look at how you cope with going through all of that, trying to maintain a "normal" life, and the mistakes you make along the way and how you try to make it better. I think the al-anon struck a chord with me and this is something I went through with my dad. I felt at a calmer I think after realizing all the chaos I deal/dealt with and seeing it on screen. It's something I think a lot of us live with but don't really know how to articulate, like when he said, "I don't ask you how you're feeling because I don't know what I'm feeling myself." You're just going through it and surviving that you don't stop to consider what is going on.

T came back after a five week hiatus and I think I inundated her with all the stuff I've been working on. I feel like I'm incorporating/processing some of the stuff that happened during the energy work. I don't know if I could "handle" the full scope of what it was and so I needed to stop the process in a way, or only access it in drips. I think it's akin to what Papa Coco has been talking about on a thread, and that as children (and adults too I think) anything that threatens our dissolution of personality causes severe anxiety. It makes me think of growing up and how I think when I was small my gm was the only safe place in the chaos. That my personality is orientated around this experience and without it (her), there's a lot of anxiety/dissolution. I guess it makes sense that when I experience something like that, it brings me back to that time. The energy that came up was also particular mother energy and I guess it activates my "mother wound."
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 05, 2022, 09:34:24 AM
I've written responses to a couple things the past few days but they didn't seem right or like I couldn't complete my thoughts. I think there's a couple things going on or maybe just need to take some more time to process.

I was more irritable yesterday around people so I decided to look more into md and GABA, as GABA precursors are recommended if irritability/no afterglow is happening. On a side note, I'm feeling a lot of this around people lately - being around people who think they know better and are passive aggressive. I had a few things happen while away at work - it's like people just target me to put their stuff on. I know it has nothing to do with me (I don't think this is projection), and am trying to look into more to how I respond. Anyways, mycotoxins increase glutamine which is an excitatory neurotransmitter (think anxiety and irritability). GABA is the inhibitor but can become depleted (as I understand) if glutamine stays high. I took a braverman analysis some months ago which said I was low in GABA. I bought some GABA calm and tried some niacin along with my MD this morning and will see how it goes.

I got my test results back for the apartment and it has high concentrations of the mycotoxins I have in my system (like 10 times and 100 times over the acceptable limit). I'm still working with a lawyer about this and I find myself procrastinating about it. The landlord tried to raise the rent 25% about two weeks after I said something had to be done about the mold and I took it to tribunal. The decision has come back in my favour and there is a moderate 6-7% increase. This gave me a boost, it's just so exhausting.

I wrote a bit in response to Papa Coco's feelings on disintegration anxiety but felt maybe they were more about me and my thoughts/experiences with it right now, and following on from my last post. I don't know, growing up I always felt one step away from "crazy." I guess that's why the actor's portrayal in The Bear stood out. I could relate to having to feel so much all the time, like no bottom no direction at all. I had a dream after I had the energy work and there was a female figure who reminded me of Nut, the Egyptian sky goddess. I learned about her in elementary school and always liked how her body held all the stars over us. After the dream, I read more about her and found she is also the barrier(?) between chaos and the ordered world. What an idea that this female figure (mother?) sort of mirrors my own experiences with my mother and the feeling between chaos and order. That the pull to my mother was full of chaos and me trying to order/make sense of it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 09, 2022, 09:32:08 AM
I rally enjoy reading other peoples' experiences with their treatments and thank you everyone for sharing them.

T and I spoke about my gf last session and although I feel like I've mentioned some of the things before, I guess I never went into too much detail. I always had a certain "idea" about the relationship there. He felt like one of the people that supported me, despite his flaws. T said there's a lot there. I agree. Definitely a lot about not performing, living up to a certain idea. I remember my 2nd t saying to me, whose life is it anyways in relation to me and my family. That was about twenty years ago and I feel like I'm still integrating that.

I have a book which I saw on the back shelf during a video lecture with Rinpoche called, "Meeting the Shadow: The Hidden Power of the Dark Side of Human Nature." I guess it sounds very menacing but I think it's about understanding and owning all parts of yourself. I'm trying to understand more about my own shadow and how my mind creates it. I think it's interesting how a lot of us seem to think we're these really terrible people, at least I have, and it's taken a lot of work in therapy to slightly change that and see that maybe it's not the case, but I don't want to be too arrogant of course (sarcasm). I'm trying to understand how they integrate into my experience as I understand it. I feel like I can definitely pick out times when I had to disown parts of myself because my protection mechanisms weren't understood by others. I guess I'm putting it down here because I'm still trying to work it out. I don't know about my lost self. I feel like that would have happened very early.

One chapter discusses how the shadow is created and the different aspects of the self.

i . Your "lost self," those parts of your being that you had to repress because of the demands of society (family).
2. Your "false self," the facade that you erected in order to till the void created by this repression and by a lack of adequate nurturing.
3. Your "disowned self," the negative parts of your false self that met with disapproval and were therefore denied.

To fill the void, the child creates a "false self," a character structure that serves a double purpose: it camouflages those parts of his being that he has repressed and protects him from further injury. A child brought up by a sexually repressive, distant mother, for instance, may become a "tough guy." He tells himself, "I don't care if my mother isn't very affectionate. I don't need that mushy stuff. I can make it on my own. And another thing—I think sex is dirty!" Eventually he applies this patterned response to all situations. No matter who tries to get close to him, he erects the same barricade.

(Page 50).

At some point in a child's life, however, this ingenious form of self- protection becomes the cause of further wounding as the child is criticized for having these negative traits. Others condemn him for being distant or needy or self-centered or fat or stingy. His attackers don't see the wound he is trying to protect, and they don't appreciate the clever nature of his defense: all they see is the neurotic side of his personality. He is deemed inferior; he is less than whole.

(Page 51).

He needs to hold on to his adaptive character traits, because they serve a useful purpose, but he doesn't want to be rejected. What can he do? The solution is to deny or attack his critics: "I'm not cold and distant," he might say in self-defense, "what I really am is strong and independent." Or "I'm not weak and needy, I'm just sensitive." Or "I'm not greedy and selfish, I'm thrifty and prudent." In other words, "That's not me you're talking about. You're   just seeing me in a negative light."

But in order to maintain a positive self-image and enhance his chances for survival, he has to deny them. These negative traits became what is referred to as the "disowned self," those parts of the false self that are too painful to acknowledge.

The only part of this complex collage that you were routinely aware of was the parts of your original being that were still intact and certain aspects of your false self. Together these elements formed your personality, or the way you would describe yourself to others. Your lost self was almost totally outside your awareness; you severed nearly all connections with these re- pressed parts of your being. Your disowned self, the negative parts of your false self, hovered just below your level of awareness and was constantly threatening to emerge. To keep it hidden, you had to deny it actively or project it onto others: "I am not self-centered," you would say with great energy. Or "What do you mean, I'm lazy? You're lazy."




Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 14, 2022, 09:13:39 AM
I think there's "stuff" going on, but not really sure what's active right now. Lots of body stuff coming up - problems with stomach and sleep, feeling down. Had a bit of gluten accidentally and readded citrus fruit pectin and wondering if it's stirring things up/detoxing new things. I find when my physical side is off, I'm not really emotionally clear.

Also reflecting after last post and how I was basically (as a child) responsible for the feelings of an adult man, my gf, and how it probably has something to do with how I feel around men now. It also feels like one of those things that comes up and I don't 100% know what to do with it yet, it just kind of sits there, maybe disconnected from how it made me feel, how it played out in my life, what I do about it now.

As I mentioned in Hope's journal, I've been feeling like a lot of different people, and maybe trying to understand/connect that person I was 15-20 years ago to now. But I don't think that's an accurate description of what's going on.

I was reading Heart Essence of the Khandro and it was teaching about suffering, Karmic causes, and the Kunzhi. It also teaches about the nature of mind. I think there is a slight distinction in what I told Papa Coco in his journal - Rigpa is the awareness of the Natural State and abiding in that awareness. Kunzhi, or the natural state, always exists and is the storehouse of our suffering and karmic traces.

Yongdzin Lopan Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche writes:

"How does suffering start? How does it increase? I have to tell you this briefly as it forms the first part of the text. Every being is endowed with consciousness. There are many different types of consciousness, but in particular there is one called Kunzhi Namshe, and we can say that it is like a blackboard, because whatever we do or think - whether good or bad - is kept here like a kind of trace, like a drawing on a blackboard. This trace is called a karmic cause. Usually we speak about karmic causes, about how we create them, where they are kept, how they produce results and so on. You must understand these things first and then you can think about how to purify them.

...There are eight important consciousnesses and many minor ones, making fifty-one altogether. The result of whatever they do is brought back to the store hall and that is called a karmic cause, which is then kept in the Kunzhi Namshe...

...As in a dream, your mind is still working even though your body has stopped working, so the next lifetime is only a kind of transformation as mental consciousness takes rebirth, together with karmic cause..."

He writes about the different kinds of collecting of karmic causes and the different ways to purify them, the best being Dzogchen:

"Then finally there is the Dzogchen View, the Natural State. Here, nothing whatsoever remains integrated with consciousness, so it is completely pure - even the store hall or the Kunzhi Namshe itself liberates into Empty Nature. So there is no base; the blackboard no longer exists! When you are in the Natural State, whatever you do or whatever your senses collect is like drawing with chalk in space: there is no base."

He writes about the different kinds of suffering and the reason that we should purify them and

"try to realize that you can actually be liberated from them, and search for an antidote: how can they be purified? You need to think about this; that is the purpose of practising religion...When you search for a way to purify these sufferings, you will realize that Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen are the antidotes. You should discover this yourself and choose your own path; one person cannot order another to do something."

It's quite beautiful when he describes the exercise of looking back to a thought:

"Just look at that thought, that perception. When you try to look at it, nothing remains. If you open your eyes, even if your visualization was very clear indeed, you will still only see the normal things of phenomenal existence, you can't see anything special. If you look back towards your thought, there is nothing to see and what remains is an unspeakable state...

...Just after you look back towards a thought then that thought is no longer stable, it no longer exists, and what remains is an unspeakable state. It is quite clear. It is very, very important for you to have a clear understanding and experience of this before you receive these teachings.
Look at the first thought and look back at who is looking at it. They both disappear simultaneously and nothing remains, yet you are not unconscious. The state which goes on afterwards is the Unspeakable State. That means that your presence is clear but it is impossible to explain what is clear as there is no thinking; you do not judge anything as being emptiness, clarity, this or that - nothing...

...This is not like ordinary clarity as there are no judgements whatsoever because it is not influenced by perception or consciousness...

...That is the example for how reflections come from the Nature without changing the Nature itself. This presence is called Nature, and Nature is like the crystal ball - many reflections can come from there, they appear there, yet there is no change to the Nature itself..."

I feel like doing these exercises, just looking back on a thought, and remaining in the aftermath, or trying to, shifted my perceptions a bit this week. I still feel like I'm fighting something in me that doesn't want me to do these exercises, even though I feel very relaxed after reading them. I guess it's time to try and speak to that part but it feels difficult. I don't know if people resonate with what I'm putting here, and I don't know if it's allowed as I guess technically it's religion, but I find it helpful as a way to "looking back to a thought" when it is a CPTSD thought (one of those alarm bells) and just let it go. He also says that we have to give thanks to those that came before us and are holders of this knowledge.





Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on October 17, 2022, 02:03:07 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I definitely relate to many of the things you're writing about here, and I really appreciate being able to read them. 

Also, it's your journal, and you're writing about things that are helping you - I think that must be ok?  Things you write are also helping me - I appreciate your words very much. 

:hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 18, 2022, 11:58:46 AM
Thank you Hope, I really appreciate that  :hug: I think I read in the guidelines for OOTS that there was no religious talk and I don't see Dzogchen that way, but I guess Bon Tibetan Buddhism is. To me, it's exploring the nature of mind which I think is similar to IFS in a way. Maybe that's the child part of me, always worrying that I'm breaking the rules and doing something wrong.

I spoke with t about some of the thing I saw in my energy work and she said it was quite profound. It makes me think about the class and how I had to leave, go through a power struggle with someone (what it felt like to me), and feel like I had to seperate from the other classmates who I was getting along with, in order to have my truth and something that was quite profound for me.

T and I also talked more about my gf and I found it difficult to bring those ideas up. I guess it was my idea of love growing up and is being reoriented/tested/changed. I had some very strong dreams last night and I wonder if they were related to my gf and the things he experienced growing up during the war. In another part, it was like I was on a date with my gf and someone he was seeing - that I as present on their date, which I think is bringing up a lot of stuff, remembering about my family and how my gm was very vocal about who my gf was seeing. I remember her telling me that so and so was just after money and if they got together, there wouldn't be anything for my brother and I (the irony of that situation now), but I'm seeing that someone who is ten years old shouldn't be put in that situation, or be aware of it.

It's interesting to think too, what might have triggered this. Is it just something that came up as a result of MD? Or there was an attractive guy that I spoke to at the gym yesterday and I wonder if these dynamics are coming out because of that. I always saw myself as arelationship (kind of like asexual but with relationships), even though I want a relationship. It would be like if someone came near me, I would just push it out of my head right away, like it didn't even register, or I would find things wrong. I don't know why - because my gf was like that? That he dated people after my gm but there was always something wrong with them. I remember telling him once that I don't think marriage was for me which he kind of agreed with. I wonder where all that came from and maybe I'm starting to find out.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 07, 2022, 10:24:42 AM
Work has been busy and a challenge over the past couple weeks in a way that makes me doubt myself and is hard to touch ground. I also touched base with a colleague I haven't seen in almost ten years and felt like there was something romantic there, which I somehow shut down yet still remain attached to, or have some hope that something might happen, while feeling that nothing good ever comes of these things at work, I'm just being played with etc etc. It doesn't help I guess that this person reminds me a bit of my gf. Lots of emotional soup coming up rn and I have some crazy stomach thing happening. And court eviction has come again which I have to deal with.

I relate to PC's post on shame and watching those IFS videos on shame are maybe helping reorient my perspective a bit on my emotional reactions. I also have my own peed my pants episode that happened when I was quite young at the babysitters (2,3?). I was put to sleep on the couch by my mom in the living room when she dropped me off on her way to work. The bathroom I was supposed to use was downstairs. I remember going down the stairs when it was dark and everyone was asleep and feeling like I wasn't sure if I should be doing this. I didn't make it and the babysitter (who was very religious and strict), punished me for it and made me stand in the corner. I think she also brought it up with my mom like why would I do this. The part about me being unsure if I'm allowed to do something is interesting as it's come up recently on the forum where I wasn't sure if I should be posting something. I'm curious/interested in this doubt and where it comes from.

In the video on shame I posted on the IFS thread, he talks about phrases that parents use to shame their children. "You're acting like a spoiled child, you're being a crybaby, good girls don't act that way" are all phrases I heard in my family along with: you're hopeless (gf - even if it was a "joke"), miss piggy (my m), you're being a princess (for wanting to do things my way - my gm), don't be a sissy (or suck - sf). It just makes me realize how deep shame goes in my family, that they were shamed for doing the things they did (my gm for leaving her country, or at least she had a lot of guilt around that decision and being her "own" person), which was then passed on to me.

The connection between the parts holding the shame and the parts that try to prevent the shame from coming up, which will have a kind of compulsive behaviour, is also interesting. Maybe I could see it intellectually before that the people pleasing part, who always has to be online, doing things for people, so I won't be criticized and feel the shame, was connected to the above instances in my family. But framing it in this way feels different, that at the root this is shame. I don't think that's come up before and I'm still trying to wrap my head/emotions around it. I think I saw it as I'm not good enough, but didn't connect that there was shame associated with that.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 12, 2022, 01:41:02 PM
Big chat with T and things came up that I haven't considered before - that my gm and gf were probably divorcing and fighting at the same time as my parents were divorcing and fighting. That must have been a lot to go through around that time 3-5. Maybe it explains why I don't have a lot of memories from then. I also felt like I have a protector part that stands up for other people.

I went back through my gm's psychological assessments today for the first time since last Christmas, and there is a lot in there. My gm and gf were fighting a lot and I did probably witness a lot of it. There's also things about my gm that came up which I can maybe see repeating in me or I take on. It's interesting that it also described her as protecting her little brother when she was young. It also sounded like she did that with my mother when my gf was tough on her. She wasn't able to get emotionally close in her relationships to a man, or kept some tension in the relationship by rebelling against the demands placed on her. I feel like I repeat this at work to a certain extent - that I've chosen a profession which is mostly men and have a need to rebel to get my voice heard, but maybe there are other elements at work?

It's also interesting that she took time off for an injury for coccyx pain and that I injured my coccyx when I was around 9. I've had some pain throughout my life from that.

I recommended the Mark Woylnn book to someone and listened to one of his lectures on youtube which got me thinking about generational trauma again and where all this comes from.

I've also been detoxing a lot of stuff. I think my stomach issues were a spontaneous detox, or exorcism is what it felt like  ;D I've been having redness under my arms, mostly one as I think stuff is getting stuck in my lymph nodes. I tried an armpit "detox" the other night and woke up feeling awful. Although, only one of my armpits (the one that's usually red) smelled after sweating, so hopefully it's working. Maybe TMI but I'm wondering if it's been having an effect on my mood lately which has been a bit low.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 13, 2022, 01:24:37 PM
Emotional soup continues and think there was some fallout from reading that stuff yesterday. Although, I also think I've been operating from a young part/another part lately. During my session with t, I felt like I had gone back to the motherland another time with my grandparents when I was a baby but couldn't remember. After going through the papers, I saw that I didn't go back, but my grandparents did when I was two. I think it's interesting that I thought that had something to do with me.

I noticed I tried to block (?) this stuff yesterday and the emotions that were coming up I guess. I didn't really notice that that's what I was doing. Wasn't feeling great on a certain level after reading that stuff as I think it took me back to that time. I guess it would have been a lot for a toddler to try and sort out what was going on. I can see why I would have tried to be a protector for my gm at the time. As an adult now, I can start to pick out other things in the evaluations that child me/protector me wouldn't have known. My gm was going through a tough time in the marriage and financially, but she also didn't do things that would have helped her career like putting herself out there. I remember her blaming it on my gf and how he put pressure on her, but I can also see that even if he was "abusive" she didn't walk away from it and help herself. I don't want to victim blame and I'm thinking about the extent of this, but I know that in other situations where she could have taken action (like her health and looking after herself, she also refused). Maybe having a male therapist in the 70s and 80s didn't help when women probably weren't taken seriously and she felt like she couldn't open up and work on her stuff. I don't know.

I can see from the reports that during this time it was me that she put her focus on and I was the only thing that made her feel better and cue 40 years of inner conflict about myself for wanting to be my own person and also feeling love for my gm.

Yesterday at the gym, or maybe in general, I felt very much like I was just taking things on, that I couldn't stand up or feel secure about myself. I've been ill and haven't been to the chiropractor, so my hips are a bit of a mess and was struggling with some weights I did easily a couple of weeks ago. I "feel/think" that there were some men watching me, maybe with not great intentions. To me, I sometimes feel that there are certain men that feel happy when I fail a heavy lift. (After watching some instagram videos where the girls show the guys faces in the background when they are lifting, I don't think it's all in my head but do think my stuff is involved as I can't just brush it off).

Yesterday, I especially felt like it was getting to me and I couldn't just brush it off. Usually I stand up to that stuff but lately I've been feeling like I can't. I wonder if it is connected to my gm who I feel took all the verbal abuse/criticism on from my gf for whatever reason (as my mom did with my sf too). I was the one who tried to stand up to my sf but not my gf in everything??? Though I do feel like I tried to stand up to him as well but maybe never fully challenged him. Interesting.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on November 14, 2022, 02:49:35 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
It's tough to be in an exercise environment and not be able to feel free to exert yourself and exercise without feeling judged by other people around.  I wanted to say that I think you're great to be exercising there, and coping, even though you've got some injuries - I hope you'll be careful and not overdo it though.  Be kind to yourself.   :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: milkandhoney11 on November 14, 2022, 03:35:42 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I am so sorry about the way you have been feeling when going to the gym. It's hard to keep doing these things and trying to take care of your body when your inner and outer critic are making it so difficult and you can't stop worrying about what others may think of you.
I've suffered from similar experiences for a really long time (although I consider myself quite sporty, I have always felt quite self-conscious exercising in front of others and I can't quite explain why it triggers me so much), so I definitely feel for you.
Sometimes it's hard to go out into the world and try to live a normal live when your inner world is in so much turmoil. But, you know, at the same time I think that this shows how incredibly brave you actually are.
When I am in an emotional flashback I often cannot manage to leave the house for days because I am terribly ashamed of myself and feel like people will instantly see how wretched I really am inside - so I admire that you are still sticking to it and going to the gym even if it's hard. Maybe you feel like this is not much to be proud of, but to me it sounds like you are being really brave for still showing up at the gym when you are being treated in such a way
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 15, 2022, 12:16:05 AM
 ;)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 18, 2022, 10:50:02 AM
Thank you Hope, milkandhoney11, and Larry  for checking in and what you wrote.

I went to the chiropractor this week after a long absence and he mentioned that he thinks there's gallbladder stuff going on, which is in line with the symptoms I've been having and the detox. I just need to keep and eye on it. I also haven't been taking any zinc (which offsets oxidative stress and affects irrritability). I had some last night before bed and felt better, so will make sure I am taking it.

I've been thinking about that feeling at the gym and how it comes from a place of feeling like I can't defend myself, or stand up for myself/powerlessness? Or maybe a reaction to it. Looking over the papers, I think this is something my gm went through with my gf (and probably her family), that she kept hoping my gf would recognize the struggle she was going through and "rescue" her, or help her with her plight. She seemed to take on a lot of emotional criticism from my gf (not that she didn't give it herself looking at the language used in the reports) and maybe felt like she had to take all that on to be safe herself. I wonder about the connection between this and my own ability to be proactive and do things for myself that need doing.

Going over the first psychiatrist report again, I saw something that my brain had maybe blocked out for some reason, or maybe I just missed reading it in the first place. She describes my gf as being jealous of my mother and being in constant conflict (he was her step f and adopted her when she was five or so), which reached crisis proportion when my m became a teenager and started dating. It also explains that my m reached puberty around nine or ten and my gm informed my m 'extensively' about sex and felt that she could trust the girl even at thirteen. This doesn't really sit well with me though I don't really know why I'm having such an adverse reaction to learning about sex? I think/remember my gm talking about sex, or wanting to make sure we knew about sex because she herself came from a. strict family and didn't know what happened which resulted in her getting pregnant at 17. I think it's mostly the part about my gf being "jealous" of my m and restricting her going out with boys, though I suppose the latter is what fathers do. It seems like there was a lot of conflict around sex and growing up in the household and I think this somehow reflects in me and my relationships (or lack of). I wonder if I have taken it on, not wanting to be close to people/guys because somewhere is/was the belief that sex = conflict. Or my body = conflict.

Still processing all this in the background.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 19, 2022, 02:16:33 PM
Said some things to t about my gf that I don't think I've told anyone. I saw her mouth go into a straight line and I know that that's not good. But I've said this stuff and now we're going to have to unpack it. I think too, now that I've said it, I'm starting to see repercussions, the ripple effect of behaviours. Is it just that certain people and certain generations said things that were inappropriate?

I'm starting to see how powerless I still feel in relation to my family, that I am holding on to ways of thinking and behaving that leave me feeling powerless.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on November 19, 2022, 02:24:03 PM
Sending support. Saying things can be really hard but ultimately helpful to heal.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on November 22, 2022, 03:32:42 PM
HI Dolly,

I've responded to a few posts this morning, and the topic of Russian Dolls and Peeling the Onion has been a recurring theme. Reading that you disclosed some never-before-seen things about your gf, makes me envision you peeling into the next layer, and starting the healing process on that layer.

Therapists often use that analogy to help us not be surprised that once we start to feel better about what we've been working through, we then start over again with the next layer. Each layer gets its own initial shock, trauma response, therapy, learning, and finally accepting.

It feels to me like you've just opened up the next layer. For me, whenever I feel good about my healing, the next, uglier layer exposes itself and I start to feel like I did at the start of the last layer. The encouraging part of this paradigm is that I now know that I was able to get through the last one, so I am more confident now that I'll get through this one too.  And then...of course, the next layer is still awaiting it's exposure. C-PTSD is the gift that keeps on giving.

I have lived my life on the 80/20 rule. to me, it means that 80% of the healing happens in the first 20% of the time. Then the last 20% takes 80% of the time. (Another analogy is "Picking the low hanging fruit first"). I think of building a house. One day, a tractor pulls down all the trees and digs a square pit. The next day a cement truck pours a foundation. The next day framers put up walls. Within a week, even the roof is on. By the end of the second week, the shingles and siding are on the house. Window and doors are installed. 80% of the house is done. Then it takes MONTHS to do the details. 80% of the house was done in 20% of the time. Then 20% of the house takes 80% of the time.  When losing weight, I found that for me, as long as I maintained my 1800 calorie limit and did my walking, the first 80% of my weight loss happened in the first 20% of the diet. That last 20% took 80% longer.

I was a manager in aerospace engineering. I saw that 20% of my employees used up 80% of my time. 

The 80/20 rule is pretty universal. My healing with PTSD made vast, noticeable improvements in the first 4 years when I finally found a good DBT therapist. But that was 20 years ago, and I've spent the next 16 years working on the details. Harder work for deeper, slower healing.

I sincerely hope that you and your t, and your presence on the forum, and your own stamina and intelligence will rally together again to get you through this layer.  I had a very distant grandfather. He liked his grand daughters and daughters a LOT more than he cared for his son or any of his grandsons. Just that, alone, hurt me pretty badly. I know how important a gf is to a grandchild. My two grandsons think the sun rises and sets in my wife and I. THEY are the ones who named me Papa Coco. The name stuck because I love them so much. I used it on this forum so that THEY would be my reminder that my healing is important to them too. For me to think of being abused in any way by a grandparent, just makes me believe that the trauma from any gp abuse would be worth its own layer with a good therapist.

My heart is with yours right now. Good therapy is going to help a lot. Thanks for sharing this instance with us. We all heal together, and the more we share and support each other, the more each of us heals.

BIG HUG! :bighug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 23, 2022, 09:36:12 AM
Thank you Armee and PC for what you said  :grouphug:

There's a lot of soup right now. I think the emotions that I've done so well on protecting are bubbling up. In Chinese Medicine the gallbladder and liver hold the anger and resentment. I guess it makes sense that if I've been having issues with these, that these are the feelings coming up.

My chiropractor also brought up water and the kidneys yesterday. The emotions associated with the kidneys are fearful, anxiety, aloof, weak willpower and isolated. It's crazy how I can also see these relating to myself and my gm after going through those papers. While I was on my walk last night, I made an effort to become unblended. Right away, it was like there was anxiety/fear (?) and I tripped and fell. Not as bad this time but it's interesting that I was feeling fear the last time I fell as well. I feel like those feelings have also always been there but I've managed to keep them at bay/fight them.  I guess this is the time to bring them out and examine them. It's funny as well because I was looking at going back and doing some element meditations on shame, and was trying to think of the element that would represent it, and came up with water. It's how comfortable we feel in our body as well as dealing with attachments (a poison where I think of my gm's attachment to me and her inability to let me grow up and be my own person) and accomplishments (a wisdom that maybe explains why I feel so lethargic about doing things, I don't want to accomplish them and feel thr satisfaction because I don't think I'm worthy).

My gf and gm were a huge part of my life. My m was gone a lot and in my gm's words to her psychologist, neglecting her daughter while she was off with her boyfriend.  So, my gm and gf babysat me and were my safety net. It makes sense that I've masked over their relationship and some inappropriateness because I needed them to be safe and love me. Well, I accepted the love they gave me but it doesn't mean it was healthy.

I wonder how much of me is making excuses for my gf about men from that generation behaving differently towards women, that there was a leniency about certain behaviours. Maybe that's why I react so strongly to it now too. In my family there was a sense of, it's family so you just have to get over it, you have to forgive them. Like my gm accepted the behaviour from my gf, I had to accept the things my m did (and she would probably grumble about my gf but never really make him accountable like my m). Even with my brothers behaviour more recently, and my m, they overlooked how it impacted me and I'm the one that had to "get over it, " and not be angry. We had to forgive them just so they could be near. I stopped wanting to do that and it was something my gm never understood.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on November 24, 2022, 04:00:06 PM
Hi Dolly

It definitely tugs on my heartstrings to read about the complexities of your relationships with your gps, and your m. At the same time, I'm also aware of how the kidneys and liver hold anger and resentment, so I find myself feeling good about how well engaged you are in the available information we have today. Your walks and meditations are also a great thing. Until arthritis consumed my knees I practiced the same things. I can't walk for exercise anymore, but for almost my entire life, those walks and meditations kept me strong. Good for you for doing them.  And that's pretty interesting that you tripped while feeling anxiety and fear both times.  I suppose it could be a message from your brain to your body to make you aware of the trauma, or it could be that the anxiety and fear dissociated you enough to take your attention away from your feet? These are just a couple of amateur thoughts I have. It could be something totally different.

Even though I'm the straight-white-male, (swm) I've always been appalled by the way that society has treated girls, or any other non-swm person. In many ways, maybe because of my gentle nature, I was raised as if I were gay and not privy to the right to be angry at the abuse I was forced to take in public and at home. When you say that your anger may be triggering your tripping, it kind of reminds me of the fact that I, even to this day, feel like I'm simply not allowed to feel anger. I'm supposed to sit back and let my narcissistic family mess with me. It's their job to enjoy themselves, and my job to let them abuse me for their own pleasures. Or, They don't have to respect the trauma they gave me, but I have to respect the traumas they endured during their crappy childhoods.

I only shared that because I'm curious if that's what makes you trip. Maybe your anxiety and fear, which made you stumble, was around feeling like you aren't allowed to be angry? Some part of your body or brain is still trying to help you stay safe by not allowing anger to surface? I've always hated how, being abused and disrespected by our caregivers puts us in that nasty position of having to love people who are hurting us because we're so afraid of being exiled and left behind. Being abused in a home with food and family is better than being thrown out onto the street to fend for ourselves, especially when we've been trained to let others treat us badly without being allowed to stand up for ourselves.

In my own experience, a great deal of my anxiety and fear would be squashed if I could allow myself to be cleanly angry at the person/people who deserve my anger. One therapist I saw for religious abuse, homed in on that. He helped me to see that my anxieties and chronic fears are the result of me not feeling free to be angry at those who really, truly deserve my anger. If I can't feel the anger, the anger stays in my liver and the result is anxiety, depression, defeat... I'm still not good at feeling anger. I still have some of that same sense that, well, my family was mean and unsupportive, but "they did the best they could with their own traumas....blah, blah, blah." I'm sorry that my parents were raised in the John Wayne era of being tough instead of kind. But in reality, that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 25, 2022, 10:19:18 AM
Thank you for what you wrote PC  :hug:

My health and what's going on in my body has had an impact on how I've felt emotionally. I'm sorry that you can't go out for walks any more, I don't know what I would do without them. I'm going to sound like more of a crazy hippy (welcome to the PNW) but there was a time when I had issues walking about 10 years ago when I started getting sick. Long story but mycotoxins lead to underlying GI disturbances which lead to newly acquired food allergies, including gluten. When I'd never had a problem before, all of a sudden I could only move very stiffly if I'd been sitting for long. I cut out all the gluten and started healing the inflammation (of which there's a lot on both sides) and it went away. It also completely changed my mood but that's another thing.

So, I do listen to the chiropractor and my body when stuff is coming up. I think our minds can influence our bodies and our bodies how we feel. I have to laugh because if there is a water imbalance and the posion is attachment, how funny that my body "holds on" to these mycotoxins and can't excrete them?

Thank you PC. With the stuff that's coming up around my gf and family right now, and how there's a part of me that kept this idea of family intact, I can see that maybe there's a part that thinks it can't express anger. Although, I know I did express anger to my family in the past for things maybe not enough when I thought it would threaten my survival. But there is an idea in my family (who are immigrants, refugees, and lived through a war - well multiple if you go back far enough), that something bad will happen. For example, my gm who was also a hoarder, could never throw anything away in case they needed it, and I heard often about how if I used the remote too much (for example), I was going to break it. Men were just going to leave you in her words, I couldn't cook the way I wanted to because the world doesn't work like that - you can't make healthy meals like that all the time. This is why I'm very interested in the generational aspect of trauma because I think ideas like this, and the feelings of fear and anxiety, come along with it from generation to generation. This is something from birth (I think) that was always there outside myself, ready to get me.

I also had an IFS where a mom part showed up as my inner critic (this also took me some time to work out what I saw and what it meant which happens sometimes in IFS). This part wouldn't leave me alone and was incessantly "attacking" me as I tried to get space and speak with it. So, I sealed it up. I imagine that when I try to unblend that part could be there as well, waiting to start attacking me again. Someone else that has legacy burdens mentioned that when these parts come up that belong to their family, they do something similar and cut them off, that they don't have to listen and have no space in their head/life as they don't belong to them. Perhaps there is a part of me that is still attached to my family and giving space to these ideas in my life (not to blame myself, just an observation). I know that I had/have a lot of guilt for saying no to my family and doing things my way.

It also reminds me of how I feel like I have to fight and protect my space (my self I guess) which has maybe been coming up more recently. I feel less inclined to give people room in case they walk on me, or deal with their ideas of how what they want to impose on my. I guess I want to take up space in my own way.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 26, 2022, 09:51:21 AM
Speaking with t and it's interesting that I have been feeling more anger but yet I also find myself going through the motions of people pleasing. Although, I think, as I mentioned before, that it's almost as if I'm angry at allowing people that space even though I'm still doing it. As the realizations about gf (and gf and gm's relationship) are coming out, I'm seeing my people pleasing/allowing people space in a new way and is tied to something else that I hadn't considered before.

It's interesting after reading the reports that my gm's idea of security (safety?) was tied to my gf. Perhaps on some level that's why I protected it for so long because it then became my idea of safety/security.

Also, seperately, I mentioned to t that my gm had a pattern of thinking the men in her life were going to be abusive towards her. Her father was strict and critical as well. Although, I don't know if he was ever abusive. It's a pattern that came up with all the men in her life even my sgf, who I remember her saying to me once, that she was really scared of him, but seemed out of character for him to behave in that way. Something that's been coming up in the back of my mind recently is my gm saying how women (relatives?) would go into the woodshed at night and make themselves dirty and ugly so that when the Russian soldiers came they wouldn't rape them. I wonder if this is the "unknown fear" that is out there for me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 05, 2022, 11:30:41 AM
I've been busy with work and had some things come up that I need to address. I'm making a decision about not moving forward having my sgf involved in my m's estate and dropping the petition and essentially pursuing a fair verdict in court with my sf. I don't have a lot of trust in my sgf after what happened last Christmas and am tired of fighting to have boundaries (which they will inevitably turn around and say oh, I didn't mean it like that, or my brother will turn it into something about me just being after money). I know conniving, duplicitous, selfish people exist in the world and it's something I have to deal with. I guess I'm tired of dealing with it from the people who are supposed to love me and have my back, people who when you point it out, won't understand. I guess I've always been the scapegoat and it's a lot - what is standing up for yourself in an environment when no one hears you?

I came on to write something else, well there's a few things right now. I bought a pair of shorts for the gym. I thought they would be comfortable when worn with something big overtop. Maybe I gave into the marketing and influencer hype haha. I didn't think they were that bad but when I wore them at the gym for the first time, I was so self conscious. I think it brought up how offputting it feels to put myself "out there." It's like I can be confident, but only in a certain scope. To have confidence in my image is really foreign. There was a lot of body shame in my family towards me, and it still has it's place in me, but I'm glad I wore them. Owning it and not feeling like I'm going to be attacked for it is another thing. It feels frivilous, but there's something there underneath it.

:hoovering:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 05, 2022, 04:06:10 PM
Thats really empowering that you fought those voices of shame from your family and wore the shorts. It sends a different message to the brain and I truly bet you looked fantastic even though that's not the point one way or the other. You get to wear what you want and no one has the right to shame you for it no matter what. I like that this part of our society is starting to change and that you don't have to look perfectly chiseled to wear crop tops, spandex, or whatever else. Everyone looks awesome, real bodies.

Be proud for what you did, it's huge!

I'm sorry about the estate stuff. It really sucks that the people who are supposed to love you will treat you like that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 06, 2022, 08:49:11 AM
Thank you Armee. I think that society does have an impact and reenforces a lot of the shame around bodies, not to mention many other things. It is nice that there's a good impact from a lot of younger trainers showing instagram vs reality I think, and how many actual calories you are supposed to consume (ie what is actually healthy), strong vs skinny etc. Although, I think it goes much deeper for me at least. When the idea of being a certain way (and being made to run kms when you are 7 because someone thinks you're "fat") is strong at even 20% body fat (a couple years before mold reared it's head again), I feel like it's a certain kind of programming about putting myself out there, and coming down through the generations that nothing will ever be good enough. I think for a lot of people coming from chaotic households, the body is the only thing we can control.

Yesterday I woke up and had the image of a festering sore, or an open wound which was really strong. When I tried to connect to it, I felt blocked and that there was an organizer (?) part there. Underneath it I could feel like what it would be to just experience things and maybe not have to evaluate. Starting dissociating when I wrote in my paper journal about the part. So there's definitely something there but is hard to connect to it. I guess I have to muster up Self to talk to that part.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 06, 2022, 01:45:35 PM
Thanks for clarifying that it runs much deeper - even intergenerationally. I agree it does run deeper, and I'm sorry you were pushed so hard.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on December 09, 2022, 02:35:46 PM
Dolly

It's encouraging to watch as you gather courage to do what you have decided you want to do, which is go to the gym wearing shorts that you can exercise in. Body shaming is horrible. Men get it too. I'm so ashamed of my body that I won't go to a gym at all. I won't do it. Even if I go in wearing a parka and three pairs of long pants, I won't go into a gym. I will NEVER take off my shirt where anyone can see me. I have serious heat stroke issues, but when I work in the yard, I cover up anyway. I don't swim because I won't take off my shirt for the pool.

What you're doing is called courage. In the absence of fear, courage isn't needed. Courage is doing the right thing, no matter how afraid you feel. And it's no secret that weight is a problem for about 60% of all people, so I know in my logical thought that I look perfectly normal in public because more than half of all 62-year-old men look like me now--or are even bigger! But that doesn't appease my inner critics. Knowing it and feeling it are two very different things.

When I see other overweight men walking around shirtless, not appearing to be ashamed of it at all, I ENVY THEM. I'm not impressed with beautiful bodies, I'm impressed with people who aren't ashamed of their bodies. I want to be like them, but so far, the courage to do so is eluding me.

So, I'm kind of proud of you for putting on those shorts, and going to the gym, even though your insides are afraid.  That's courage. And what you're doing is for you. That's self-love.  Two points in your favor.

I'm feeling inspired by what you're doing.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 09, 2022, 07:36:20 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Wishing you success in mustering up Self to communicate with that part that has the open sore.  I hope that it goes well, and you are able to communicate.  I also wanted to send you a hug, if that's ok  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 12, 2022, 09:38:24 AM
Thank you Armee

Thank you PC - I'm sorry that you're feeling shamed too. I can't believe how big of a thing it is to "put myself out there" even after all these years and the work I have done. I guess it is because I know there are malicious people out there (reading this morning someone's opinion that people seem to hate Harry and Meghan so much because they are in love and I have to think why are people like that? ) and sometimes it's hard to keep facing them but I''m still here. I guess any kind of reaction just takes me back to what was said about me growing up, so that's why I don't do it. Ie other people are saying it too, so it must be true what they said etc.

Thank you Hope - it's nice to see you back  :hug: I will try talking to that part but I feel like it takes over and just "being in the moment and feeling things" can be too much sometimes but I'm working on it.

I think perhaps the holiday gremlins are creeping up on me. I haven't made any plans this year and I think that's ok. I notice I could be reaching out to people but I don't find myself doing that. The soup is continuing and I'm continuing to stir it. I have certain things in mind which I think will be helpful but I haven't got around to doing them yet. I've felt more motivated to start things and get things done but had a bit of a set back this past week. I think my CPTSD flared up around someone I thought there was a mild flirtation with and it seemed to go awry and I'm processing that.

I read something funny today which made me laugh. "I survived my parents, you ******* are amateurs." I do feel like that at times.

Someone also said something that resonated too which was, "nothing can happen to us which is actually worse than what goes on inside our heads."



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 14, 2022, 09:48:01 AM
I've read a couple things the past week again which resonate with me. One is around dating and the realization that I guess I feel like someone I'm attracted to wouldn't be attracted to me back (and so I go for the safer option and settle). It's kind of like what came up when I was wearing shorts, that there's just something that stops me from putting myself out there, or I say to myself I'm not "x" enough. It's not that I'm wanting the most attractive man out there etc etc, or dating up etc, I think it's that way with anyone I'm attracted to. I feel like when I'm working out what I want, I'm just expecting not to get it. Or I swing between expecting not to get it and all bets are off, let's have the illusion. So, I'm trying to work on just being friends and realizing that I do have my own back which is a scary thing given my family and how they continue to show up in my life.

I also read about trauma bonding (a buzzword I guess) and how (with a narcissist for example) you are conditioned to accept the negative because every so often you will be thrown a positive. But what really stood out for me was that "sometimes a person may fully be aware that they are with a toxic person, but they are so conditioned to forgiving them that it can be nearly impossible to finally leave and they get stuck." In my family it was told over and over that they are family and you have to forgive them and my own reality/feeling about how it was negative and toxic was denied. I guess I was basically conditioned into a trauma bond and even though I have separated (and can see that it wasn't good, mostly I think), it's like I'm still picking out these bits. I think it did do a number on my relationships with people to have to continually forgive people who didn't treat you that great and accept it as normal, and I can understand why it is so hard to get close to people. I think I'm starting to find that place where no, I don't have to let these people in; it's not up to me to accept their behaviour. Maybe if I focus on this, I don't have to feel like I have to be so defensive or prejudge people/think about what their actions might be like etc. Essentially be hypervigilant.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: milkandhoney11 on December 14, 2022, 11:16:59 AM
What you said about trauma bonding really resonated with me, dollyvee. I feel like I was trauma bonded to my parents for a very long time and didn't fully realise that this completely hollowed me out. I think I knew that being around them was harmful to me but somehow they always managed to convince me that I was the one to blame, not them. Every time I was hit, insulted, etc. it was always because I was a bad person who deserved to be treated that way, so I was the one who felt guilty whilst my abusers just went on unscathed.
And you're right, this kind of experience really takes away our chances to ever find happiness with another. I have never been in a relationship because I always felt like I didn't deserve it. I was always not enough in some way and felt that I needed to protect others from myself. If there was someone I was attracted to I convinced myself that I had to stay away from them because being around me wasn't good for them and I would just drag them down.
So I stayed alone and isolated for all my life and I don't really know how to get out of this situation. I want to connect to someone and get into a relationship but at this point I am too scared and don't really know how to go about these things.

It's really hard to be stuck in this kind of "loop of loneliness" so I am really feeling for you and hope you can find a way to make relationships and dating work somehow. You really do deserve to be with a kind, loving someone even though sometimes you may feel like you are not quite good enough. To me it is very clear that you are, it's just what you were conditioned to believe as a child
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on December 15, 2022, 04:29:53 AM
I really relate to what you said about the particular form of trauma bonding you experienced and how that plays out for you now. That's how things were and are for me too. Especially feeling like you just have to accept and forgive. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 15, 2022, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on December 12, 2022, 09:38:24 AM

just "being in the moment and feeling things" can be too much sometimes but I'm working on it.



Hi Dollyvee,
I relate to this very much - I was reminded by something that Armee said about how the window of tolerance needs to be wider.  Sometimes feeling things is overwhelming, and I guess the protective parts of ourselves are primed to step in and reduce that/prevent us feeling those things. 

Anyway, wanted to send you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 16, 2022, 11:20:59 AM
Thank you for what you wrote M&H - I'm sorry that your parents made you feel like that and I don't think you were to blame at all, but being in that situation does make us feel like we were to blame. As a kid you're left with why can't I make it work? I don't think having a traumatic childhood means you'll never find happiness but it does come with challenges. I do think that processing this stuff and starting to realize it wasn't you, helps you/me act from a more secure place where you are creating that in your life. Happiness is not necessarily coming from another person, though, for me, I think those things still get confused sometimes.

Thank you Armee - I think having to forgive people like that leads to not having great boundaries and not really being able to stand up for yourself. There was no reference for what "bad" behaviour was from other people or that I could say no.

Thank you Hope  :hug:

Have been kind of startled by some memories (?)/feelings coming up. Not that it's anything really distinct however. Yesterday, I was trying on clothes to go out, trying a bit with how I looked. I guess wanting to look nice and had a feeling of being in school and other kids trying to tear me down or go after me for trying? I don't really know how to put it.

This morning, I had a feeling of what it was like when I was living with my dad. I would read a lot and I guess I was emotionally isolated. I had friends but I think there was a lot of other stuff going on, like dealing with how I felt about myself in relation to my m and what was going on with that (her blaming me for abandoning her to live with my dad). So, I guess it was like I was in an environment which was better and I could feel better about myself (not that it didn't have it's own things going on with my dad) but I was carrying around this blame from my m. There was no resolution to that stuff just basically I was wrong. Trying to make things better (?) when I went to my m's and have her treat me a certain way which was matched by my sf's treatment and I guess just feeling like I had no power to do anything about it? I guess this is where I started feeling like why would anyone like me? This was also during the preteen years and that's a big developmental time when all this stuff (relationships etc are coming to the surface).

I think it makes sense that it's coming up now and emotions are stirred up with that flirtation, someone I'm attracted to and think I think that behind the scenes they'll never actually like me back. Or when they find out how "messy" I am, that's it. It's strange because I wonder what part of me this is coming from. There's a part that just wants to be friends, chat and see how well we get on but then it's like this other part fast forwards things. I guess I want to get past the part where I don't have to show up for myself because I'm still dealing with the stuff that happened as a preteen?

In last session with t I told her about the open sore and how there's a part that just wants to organize or try to get a handle on the present in terms of what's happening (and maybe whether that's "good" or "bad") instead of just experiencing things (I can see how this is related to what I wrote above and not being able to chat and just be in the moment), and she recommended doing somatic exercises to get me back in the moment and regulate my emotions. I felt frustrated after I explained that, look I don't think this part is going to allow me to do that because feeling those things in the first place is what doesn't feel safe. I guess I'm tired of explaining things to people about what's going on with me and not being heard. I know she's trying to help but I also feel like I know (and am starting to trust myself) about how things work with me. So, it's just a struggle trying to make other people understand. I feel like I've had to do this a lot.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 25, 2022, 06:22:14 PM
I'm reflecting on being on my own for this Christmas and for once, I feel like I really chose it and I'm doing this for me. After last Christmas, I'm happy to have this time. Trying not to feel guilty but so far, I'm not.

Looking at other posts on the forum that deal with isolation which I think brought up some memories of my mom not really contacting me, just on Christmas or my birthday. I guess just experiencing the pain that came along with that, and not in a feeling sorry/ashamed etc way which I think came up in the past, or angry. It just makes sense that I wouldn't I want to reach out to people when the response has usually been that I'm not heard. I guess just FEELING what it was like to go through that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 27, 2022, 09:06:21 PM
Some feelings came up today and I guess it's an EF but feels much stronger than that. I was journaling and it came out that it feels like I'm willing to give away my power to people who don't necessarily deserve it in order to make them happy. It came out that if I didn't do that then there would be a fight or some kind of really negative behaviour, and I got the impression (memory) of how it was to deal with my mother. It was a fight, chaos, negativity, I was blamed badly. This memory/feeling was very present and I remembered how badly it used to make me feel about myself.

I went out to the gym and I guess this feeling was still "on" me. I feel like my reactions to people were different and I remember how I used to feel like how can I be close to people when I have to deal with "this." I can deal with people and be social, convivial etc (maybe this is the people pleasing response) but this stuff is there under the surface. I think when things get a little more intimate, it's there and that's when the panic comes up. You know, don't let people get too close. I know in the past, I've had the experience of wanting to engage etc and it's like I just go numb. I somehow deaden/dampen all feeling and it "wins." The battles with my mother.

I'm going to try and keep in mind that this really is old stuff and it's not my present reality. I don't remember feeling things in this way since I was that age, so that seems like another layer dug up.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on December 27, 2022, 10:12:44 PM
Hey Dolly,

My heart is lined up with yours right now. I agree that this is old stuff. I find you to be a very intelligent, well-read, responsive friend on this forum. I know you have a personality to be proud of. But, speaking from my own experience, your mom did some real damage, and when you find it difficult to stand up for yourself, that is, definitely, without doubt, a residual trauma response.

Fawning is a real thing. In myself, I call it doormatting. I make myself a doormat and give everything away to others to prove I'm not a horrible person. My thoughts go like this: Your happiness means more to me than my own. If I find out I've hurt your feelings, I'll drown in guilt and shame for the rest of my life, so I won't do anything to let you feel bad.  I always say I'd rather be a nail than a hammer. I'd rather be in pain than cause even the slightest discomfort in another. I don't love others AS myself, I love others INSTEAD OF myself. The thanks for that goes to my own mother, who taught me from birth that I was less than everyone else on earth.

It is trauma. It's not the reality of who we are today, but it's the ghosts of who we were as children when our lifelong wiring was still being set up by bad parenting.

The challenge, for me, these days is to not let myself fall into believing that my doormattiness is who I am. It's what I often do, but it's NOT who I AM. If I can always, always remember that it is trauma that makes me give my lunch money away, then at least I'm not feeling like I deserve to be less than others. At least I can blame it on the trauma, and that often helps me recover from bouts of shame much more quickly.

It's okay to feel the shame. In fact, it's good for us to sit with it. Talk to it. Remind it that it's feelings are from the past, but that we know they're real nonetheless. It's okay to grab a carton of icecream and wallow for a few minutes or hours in it, but all the while, reminding ourselves that the emotions are real, but the source is not. So it's okay to feel them, but it's also just an emotional response, not grounded in today's reality. It's memories of a past that's gone and buried now.

Personally, I think you're awesome! Your posts are thought provoking and always helpful, and I don't feel like you're fawning when you recommend reading for me. I feel like you're making valid points and helping to guide me to help myself through my own stuff.

I'm sending you back a great big hug from me!

:bighug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 28, 2022, 10:14:19 AM
Thank you Papa Coco :bighug: I think that's a good point, that it's what I do, not who I am.

I feel like there's times when the veil breaks and we're not stuck in something emotionally or intellectually and can begin to process things with a rational mind. It's like you're in the Matrix able to look at the bullets coming your way.

I don't especially feel like I'm a fawn but I don't know, maybe I'm not conscious of it? I did want to give lots of things away to make people happy and t and I have talked about a healthy selfishness and a healthy ruthlessness which I find elusive. Though am starting to understand the concept better and feel like I am standing up for myself. Before it was like I could never be selfish, I would be a bad person, how terrible! There was a concept of "good" in my mind growing up. Selfess was the thing to do (maybe there's some religious undertones). Even as an adult, I shy away from selfish people, and form some sort of judgement in my mind about whether they're good or not. I've come to understand that they/re just being humans I guess but not necessarily something I would do. And this is where it gets a bit fuzzy. It just makes me feel like I don't fit with people.

With the feelings that came up yesterday and being in doormatting as you called it PC, I feel like it's done out of paralysis. Like try as much as I can, I will be overpowered. It's just like something in my brain switches off. I suspect on the other side is just feeling great fear, terror, whatever you call it. It's interesting listening to the lecture on fear again and trying to shift it to a trauma lens. That as babies we grow up to identify with our mother and when she's not present or able to respond to the baby for whatever reason, is it just terror, or how a baby/embryo etc would feel? How would it feel to a baby /embryo to not have the mother present? I can see too, that maybe subconsciously, there is a constant shift to identify with something (someone - this relationship will bring me security etc) but then that terror/pain is always there, and I feel that I need to step back from it because I recognize that they will never be fulfilling, or it's just replaying the same pain/terror that I experienced before when there  was no mother there.

How do you tell your baby self that it was always connected to infinite possibilities and knowing/love?

Moving Beyond Fear: The Ultimate Protection Is Within You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0g05e8QIs
__________________________________________
I was going through my old journals trying to find that quote on fear and it's really something I need to do more of. I had a quite powerful experience where I was maybe a little bit scared and noted that afterward I was thinking about m and the energy was like after she got angry.

There was also this part which struck me again as I'm looking at relationships right now and these feelings around my m are coming up:

'She also mentions that "the energy you need to create attachment is lost to you because it's in the soul part." Mind blown. So maybe this is why the intense feeling of abandonment(?) comes up, that that part of me hasn't been formed in me, like it hasn't been formed in other generations of my family."'

The energy needed to create attachment (in relationships) is missing because it wasn't formed in the baby me, identifying with my mother didn't happen because my mother couldn't identify with me because her mother couldn't identify with her. So what soul part is in question?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 29, 2022, 09:59:37 AM
I think I'm still processing watching some of Dr. Ramani's videos on narcissism. It feels pretty a ha and validating, like it's opened up some space. On the other hand, I wonder if there's more memories/behaviours coming up?

I watched When the Truth Teller Grows Up and it's the first time I've heard about my experience in that way. It's like that 8 year old me gets to run to a bunch of other kids and say, you decided to leave too? And be understood, to know that other people get that experience and not be punished for it, like I was for decades by my mom. To see that I was right, and I don't have to doubt myself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRuWd7cpx5Y&t=3s

I related to her describing how TTs can see things before other people can usually and can be ostrasized for it, and that it can be isolating. That TTs can avoid relationships/attachments because they are messy and it's difficult (my emphasis) after a years and years of being treated like you were wrong. How it's also difficult to share because you feel like other people won't get the experience. One thing I never considered but was an a ha, is when she described young kids as just kind of knowing the defence mechanisms to deal with narcissists, that they know something is off and change their behaviour. I think this is why I shut down as it was my way of grey rocking as a child.


Poss trigger warning...


Dr Ramani talked about narcissists being affected by truth tellers and they can just see it in their eyes. One time my mother slapped me because "my eyes were smiling." I think it could be true that I did start to have a screw you attitude towards my m and sf around that time, but I don't think that's what was happening in this case. She was challenged by me. Years later she did it again when I was a teenager, that she had to pin me to the ground to see (haha to show me) that she was still stronger. I think I said something she didn't like or stood up to her. My gm also did something similar when after I decided to cook fish one night and told them they were overreacting when they said it stunk. I was probably around 19/20 and didn't know about cooking fish. My grandmother lost her temper and ended up slapping me. (I'm having a bit of AITA moment cue guilt and the voice saying "all they did was want to support you")


For my backstory, my mother married my sf, who I now think is a malignant narcissist, when I was 7. Cue insane punishments: writing lines, 'I will not pig out,' for eating food in the fridge that I had actually left for my sf because I was being "nice" it was mine in the first place; having to clean his filthy truck, rake leaves etc for a dollar, basically a humiliating amount (for perspective, when I moved to my dad'd he gave me $5 a week allowance, which was pretty fair, mowing the lawn was another $10 I think. Like reasonable amounts (not too high, not too low) for doing chores); being told I was fat and having to run 5k track 3-4x week; and just general power abuse, putting me down and thinking it was funny, having to get him water all the time (edit: being yelled at to get him water). But I fought back and when he asked for water, I would bring him hot water instead. I think I fought back a lot and I remember my mom telling me it was better not to rock the boat in a marriage, to say anything, to stand up for me. I can't remember if this was after he had pulled out a clump of my hair, or if she told me at that time to not get upset when he did those things because it only antagonizes him (as if it was my fault for dealing with his behaviour).

My mom hnd been partying and doing drugs for years I think before this. She credits my sf with straightening her out. Well that was her belief. She still took painkillers I think, and at Christmas would be passed out drunk shortly after dinner. It truly broke my heart to see her do that to herself.

I knew it wasn't right and when I was 8, I asked my dad if I could go and live with him and I did. My mom never forgave me and said that I abandoned her. Cue decades of punishment. She had my brother shortly after I left, another "accident." She doted on him and was generally cold and horrible to me, which I tried to make up for at length. Cue my grandmother saying that she's family, I have to forgive her, I can't be angry at her etc. I really did try and try to include her in my life and each time, I was disappointed.

After being an emotional mess at my first t's in university, I think it was suggested, or I suggested I don't remember, to bring in my m and talk through things. I told her how I felt etc and she reacted with, not being balls to the wall defensive, but basically you think I'm a bad mother? A more subtle horrified, I would say it was also the same with my gm and when I would express that I was upset or try to talk to her about what she was doing, it became why are you angry at me? Cue a lot of frustration and feeling like I was crazy/trapped for many years all while still trying to have a "normal" life and be "happy" with my family in it, thinking I must be wrong, make up for it,

End poss trigger warning....

I don't think I've ever put it down like that? So, watching that video and feeling like there are other people out there who get it just made me feel very, very validated.

I think I'm probably part truth teller/part scapegoat/part fixer . It's starting to make a bit of sense, my reactions/make up etc/ as I start to understand and name the different types of narcissists in my family. I knew my gm and m were narcissiists. Have been waking up to gf and t also brought up the sf might be one as well.


Some interesting things coming up - I don't feel like I'm very good with grammar right now. I'm realizing how much I had to fight in my family, like it was the default setting to relationships. I was also very touched by watching the last episode of Fleishman is in Trouble where Libby is with her husband at a party or something and it's clear that she hasn't told him all the details of what's been going on with Toby. Just the idea of separateness, that you could have your own world (and I guess that there was trust) and you didn't have to overshare or make things "clear" really stopped me.

Long, maybe non-sensical, post  :witch:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: milkandhoney11 on December 29, 2022, 10:27:14 AM
Dolly,
I am so sorry you had to go through all of this (no one deserves to be treated that way) but I hope it's okay to say that I am very, very grateful for the way you have shared your experiences. I have watched both of Dr Ramani's videos now and I have to say that they are a massive revelation.
I still can't understand how someone would treat a child like this (I think that Dr Ramani is absolutely right - these people do know how to behave and they can be kind to others or otherwise they wouldn't be able to handle their jobs) and it just makes me so sad that they think it's okay to hurt an innocent person it that way.
My dad is more of the covert narcissist kind of guy but what you said about punishments most definitely resonated with me and I am so sorry that you were treated like this - all these punishments and the body shaming are just horrendous and I admire your strength when trying to defy your dad.
I was nowhere near as strong as you were and mostly just endured my punishments without a word because I know there would be even more violence if I dared to defend myself in any way. The only few times when I managed to stand up for myself were when my dad gave me the silent treatment and threatened not to talk to me again until I had apologised for whatever I had done wrong in his eyes. But to me these accusations were ridiculous and I refused to apologise for them (not cutting cucumbers fine enough when I had offered voluntarily to help with dinner or criticising one of the racist jokes he used to make) so I just endured his silent treatment for weeks and months. Looking back it seems incomprehensible how a father would choose to actively ignore their own child like that and never speak a single word for months on end, but I refused to apologise even though my mother kept begging me every day.
What I feel very strongly now is the anger at my mum for always siding with my dad over things like that. She clearly enabled his narcissistic behaviour and even encouraged him to keep acting like that and I just can't understand why she never protected me at all. She did stand up to him a couple of times for minor things (like when he broke some of her decorations) but never when he slapped me or hurt me or shouted at me etc. and it hurts that she would stand up to him over minor things like this but never when I was in actual danger.
Looking back I almost feel like this is the worse offense. My dad is just a narcissist and he can't nor won't change. I need to accept that and just find ways to limit contact with him or use the greystoning technique Dr Ramani described. Yet, my mum should have known better and it hurts that she never cared enough about me to protect me.

So far, I always thought that these things were somehow my fault, that there was something wrong with me, but after reading your story and watching Dr Ramani's videos I can finally start seeing that this was not the case. I never did anything wrong and I didn't do anything to deserve this, I was just very unlucky to be born into a dreadful family like this. I will always have to bear the scars this has left on my heart but I won't keep blaming myself for it and I won't keep adding even more scars.

I hope you can find a way to deal with all the things coming up for you. it's challenging to cope with something like this but I guess it is also a great opportunity to heal and I hope you can emerge stronger from this
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on December 29, 2022, 05:04:37 PM
Dolly

Your grammar was fine. I could hear your message loud and clear in your post. It's a beautiful message, filled with all truth.

Dr. Ramani, and others who talk about narcissism are helpful for me too. Seeing that all narcissists always do these same evil things to good people does validate my experience, and lets me off the hook from feeling like I deserved it. I did not. Neither did you.

I still can't stop recommending the book that really, truly helped me to see through the narcissism in others, and that's The Sociopath Next Door by Dr. Martha Stout.  I swear, that learning the 2 dimensional behaviors of ALL narcissists, has given me x-ray glasses. I can now see and smell a narcissist from a thousand yards. They are so transparent, and they are all exactly alike. Totally predictable and TOTALLY incurable.

I agree that Dr. Ramani's message is the next level of detail and is even more helpful, now that I can see that there are 5 kinds of narcissists. That's worth more studying because it makes so much sense.

I agree with both Dolly and M&H above, that we didn't deserve what was done to us. And the more we learn about narcissism, the less at fault we see we are for having been treated so badly by them. THIS IS ABOUT THEM, not us.

That feels good to day.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 30, 2022, 12:06:36 PM
I felt a bit off after sharing that yesterday. I felt my anxiety was more heightened at the gym, like I dance around expecting a reaction around people? I also noticed that my sleep has been off since that feeling/EF came up with my mom. Have been waking up at 4:30 and last night at 1am where I couldn't go back to sleep around 4am. It's interesting though because I also feel like it's thinking time and I can work some things out. I guess this is why I keep everything locked in the "vault."

I think there are self destructive feelings that come up with these things. I don't know how to describe it - very black? I understand all Elliot Smith songs? I've been wondering recently if the only thing that "saved" me is having a father who committed suicide and a mother who self-destructively took drugs and alcohol. I'm having a vague memory as a teenager, if these feelings came up, or at times thinking, it's not something I could do because look at how I felt that dad left me in that way. I don't know if it was at the same time but I remember having those thoughts, that I have to find a way to do this. I feel like this mood is the aftermath of dealing with my m and sf, like this was how it was to live in my family, how resigned acceptance felt like.

Thank you MilkandHoney - these boards (and the sister site Out of the Fog) helped me realize the narcissism in my family because like you, I was conditioned to doubt myself and their view of the world was right. Of course because I was a kid and needed them for safety, I had to believe that too. I'm glad that you're finding something here. I started seriously looking at narcissism around 7 years ago. It took a bad relationship to finally sink in what my therapist 20 years ago said, that my mom was a narcissist. I'm sorry your dad did that to you, and know what it's like. After I left, as an eight year old, my mother stopped showing me affection. She would hug and be sweet to my baby brother, praise him, but turn her cheek to me, be very cold. This lasted years and it's very damaging to children. I never stopped trying to get her attention and years later when she would say things like, you know I love you, I would think that's it! Ive got the motherly affection/attention that I always wanted. But it was never there. Will I Ever Be Good Enough is a book about the narcissistic mothers and daughter relationship. I don't know if it would be helpful for a narcissistic father but maybe some of the core bits are the same.

Thank you Papa Coco - I will have a look at the book. I feel like that validation is a big part of what has been missing for me. For everyone going through it, it's a sense of you're not crazy, you're not making this up, there is something wrong and it's not you, is huge. It's interesting when she talks about young kids (four and five) seeing the narcissist and knowing something isn't right. Yet, most kids are conditioned by their families to accept it, and when we grow up looking outside the family to see some sort of validation from other people, or is this right, it can be met with gaslighting (oh they just love you etc). So, every little validation helps I think.

I want to add/edit to what I wrote yesterday because there is more, another level I guess, which took years to unpack and having it down I think is good for my own sense of story (?)/understanding.

My m was the more overtly narcissistic one in the family, at least to me. People shook their heads at how she could do the things she did. The more confusing aspects for me were the covert behaviour from my gm and gf. With my mother being as she was and her having custody, my safe place and where I felt cared for was with my gm and gf. Sure my grandfather was difficult but he always showed affection. It's so interesting now, and it's just clicking, that in my gm's psychological reports, she described my gf as being a very jealous person and as if something came over him after they were married. This jealous rage is what happens to narcissists.  I'm also seeing that he used put downs a lot, but these were just "jokes," bringing up funny stories about how ridiculous (funny) my behaviour was at times. I'm just starting to unpack this now and how I didn't recognize that something was wrong with my relationship with my gm until I was in my late teens/getting ready for college. Maybe I knew much earlier, but it was never really conscious. How could it be, she loved me? "Loved."

I was living with my dad for four years until he committed suicide when I was 14. After that, it became where would I live, what would happen to me because I didn't want to live with my stepfather. The day it happened my m showed up and was raving at how I can't believe he would do this etc, it wasn't about comforting me, but that's another thing. I went to live with my gm and sgf, sort of thankful I didn't have to live with my sf, but also feeling like I was a burden. My gm would call me her precious angel etc. I did the things I was supposed to do, got really good grades, went to university on scholarship etc and I was so excited to start my own life. But it wasn't really my life. I was doing everything that I was supposed to to make them happy. The rub is that these are good things to do and I should have had a sense of accomplishment but it was like I couldn't individuate/enjoy it for myself because it wasn't about me. My gm kept bringing up the idea that I could live in the basement and that they wouldn't bother me, I would have my own life etc. It was something that I felt like was really untrue and her love made me angry I think. I got really angry I think at the phone calls etc after I moved out. Looking back I think they were assurance to her and I felt like they were an invasion of my space. Although, I started to see it was "toxic" love, I tried to reason with both her and my mother which only made me angrier that they didn't get it, and I felt like I was going crazy.

It took me a long time to work out why and that the love wasn't really about me. It's hard to describe but I can look back now and pick out examples, like how after my dad died she asked me if  I wanted to keep my bed and I said yes. I was surprised when I got to their house and my bed was gone and instead there was a low bed just like she always wanted. Or when I was putting on my prom dress, she told me oh it looks great - let me tell you how skinny I used to be, I used to have a 24" waist etc etc. I was never allowed to be angry about things, have my own emotions. Talking with her about her behaviour when she would go why are you angry. There was always a health crisis where she was "one step from death" and then she would never do anything to take proper care of herself. However, both my sgf and I were supposed to rush to her rescue when something went wrong with her health. It was exhausting.

I think this stuff made me so angry because I saw it when I was younger and then I had to forget it to appease everyone else because otherwise what would happen to me? I think the threat of security was very real though also outgrown and exaggerated. If I went against my family, what would become of me? All their worst fears that they put into me about the world would come true etc etc. But there was still also the part that was like, screw you. When I left university to go to art school, my gf threatened to cut me out of the will. All behind my back of course - gotta love triangulation. But I did it anyway, worked a terrible, but well paying job, on weekends and payed for it myself. When I got accepted into one of the best grad programs in the world for my field, I went to him as he always said he would help pay, but all of a sudden there were conditions. He didn't really know if he wanted to do it; my gm "had" to convince him etc. Narcissists really do use money to control you. Every time I brought home a report card with straight A's, he would give me money. For a child worried about security with a mother who wouldn't even buy her underwear, feeling like a burden on her gps, this was a sense of "independence." But it wasn't really. It was always, you have to do what your gf wants or he'll cut you off. It's taken me a long time to see and really detach from the narcissism in this relationship because it was my security (like it was my gm's security).

So, it was like that Truth Teller me that saw all that stuff with my m and sf  and had to suck it up into another wave of narcissism, the more covert kind from other family members, which kind of became like a fight against my own reality. Which reality was right? Surely, these people must love me and have my best interests at heart? If I listen to myself and go against them issues with security will happen, the child me won't be safe in this world.  They're saying that they love me, there's nothing that "bad" that happened and I guess the fantasy of the loving family was something I needed to be true. But narcissists are not born but made, and as visible as it was with my mom, when t told me it must have come from somewhere, and even though I knew something was not right with my gm and now gf, it took a long time to sink in.

I thought that the follow up video to The Truth Teller Grows Up was also very supportive and someone's comment that the peace out weighs the pain, is a big one. Like I don't have to engage or feel guilty about it (once you get over the gaslighters) and I can have peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fjjf6fDVJ4

Reflecting that I feel Christmas 2022 alone has been productive. I would like to do a pt III as I can see how these things carry over now in present day but also taxing to write this stuff

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: milkandhoney11 on December 30, 2022, 03:46:08 PM
Dolly, I am so sorry to hear all this. I wasn't aware of your dad's suicide and it sounds like a terrible thing to have to deal with as a teenager, especially if you don't really have a place to go where you feel completely welcome. This must have been a very difficult time for you and I can only imagine how much incredible strength it must have taken to get through all of this

There's this one sentence in your post that really hit me hard:
QuoteIt took me a long time to work out why and that the love wasn't really about me.
God, this resonates so much with me. My parents say fairly often that they love me (especially over text) but something about the way they say it always made me feel very uneasy and uncomfortable and I recognise that it's exactly this. Their love was never really about me and when they say it is meant more as a means to control me and influence me into behaving the way they want rather than showing any kind of acceptance of the real me.
If they loved the real me they would never have acted the way they did, they just love having someone that they can control, someone to boss around and someone that they can use as a sort of "second chance in life". They want me to achieve all the things they never did and they brag about me to their colleagues, but when I'm alone with them they keep criticising every single thing I do. It's hard to believe how different they are in public than at home and I guess that makes the whole thing even more difficult to bear because people won't believe me how terrible they are to me behind closed doors.

I'm so sorry you had to deal with this kind of narcissism, too, it really messes up a person's mind and soul...

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on December 30, 2022, 07:14:08 PM
Dolly,

I'm glad you're sharing all this. I can resonate with quite a bit of it. I was raised on transactional love too. I was loved only if I behaved how my family expected me to. I've had a good, lucrative life with a lot of  good times. But, like you, I lived THEIR life, and sometimes I really wish I could have been what I wanted to become, rather than what they drove me to become.  I had a great life that felt like it was someone else's.  I'm thankful that it worked out, but...how rich would life feel if we could be who we were born to be, rather than who they told us to be?

And some sociopaths are made. I know addiction always turns a person into a narcissist, but breaking the addiction most often cures them again also. 

But babies who are born narcissistic, or sociopathic, are said to not cry in the nursery when other babies cry. They don't respond at all. Sociopathic children or adults don't yawn when you yawn. No connection. Author and public defender John Henry Browne says that the definition of a Sociopath (and Narcissist) is someone who doesn't know that we're all connected.   He also says that he used to believe narcissists were not born that way, until he met Ted Bundy. Now he believes, as I do, that there are various reasons why some people are sociopaths, and wiring from birth is right up there in the top 1 for me.  I believe they ARE born.

The reason I bring this up, is because, for me, knowing that my evil sister was born that way, makes me 100% not culpable for her nasty behaviors. Knowing she was born that way, makes me less able to be convinced that I need to feel sorry for her sad story of why she became so mean. Nothing my family did caused her to become the only narcissist out of 5 children. She was born that way. I'm off the hook. And nothing we can ever do will ever cure her. So...I can live guilt free, now knowing that my actions did not, in any way, make her be so mean. She was born mean. Period.

I'm only sharing that bit about narcissism being born into us because it really does help me feel absolutely zero responsibility for her meanness. She'd taught me for years that she would be nicer if I was a better person, but nope. SHE WAS BORN MEAN and I am not required to "give her the benefit of the doubt" because of her "sad childhood." WAAH! My childhood was a hundred times worse than hers, and I turned out to be empathetic. (The opposite of narcissistic).

I'm sending more hugs, becuase it sounds like you're really experiencing a lot of memories and ah-ha moments, and I know how taxing that is. Hard to sleep. Hard to do much of anything. It's good for us to experience these moments of growth and awareness, but it can feel anxious while it's happening.

I hope my hugs help a little. This too shall pass. Like my therapist always says, You can't find the next level of emotional potency without feeling a period of some anxiety.

:bighug: :bighug: :bighug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on December 31, 2022, 06:07:11 AM
Hey Dolly, thanks for your post.  I haven't spent much time looking into the narcissism stuff that I've seen you and a few others post lately (mostly because I try to avoid thinking about my FOO as much as possible, for better or worse), but I wanted to comment on the "threat of security" - it really resonated with me.  I had recently wrote a letter to my younger self on advice of my therapist and one of the things that came out of that for me was working out why I wasn't able to do anything about the abuse / neglect / etc. - it was the threat of security.  It was 'safer' (in whatever sense) to stay and bear it than it would've been to try to find help... who knows what would've happened if that attempt didn't work out?

Thanks again for sharing.  Have a great new years!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 31, 2022, 07:14:24 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I agree with you about it feeling very taxing to write things - I admire the fact you were able to write about things as you did.  I want to send you a hug of support and care  :hug: and I also popped in here today to wish you the best for 2023, and I hope that it will be a year that contains some positive experiences that you'll enjoy.

:hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 01, 2023, 10:16:27 AM
Thanks M&H - I never used to mention how my dad died because it was more about managing someone's reaction to suicide than about the death for me, but this has started to change. I'm learning that some people are more genetically predisposed to suicide and that other physical conditions (presence of mycotoxins in the body) can lead to suicidal thoughts. I'm sorry that you had to go through that too, you deserve to have your own life and be loved for who you are.

Thanks PC - I did venture outside the box and didn't do the job they wanted me to but not without the constant dialogue/fear of them in my head about my choices and/or what was going to happen to me because of them. Your point is reminding me about the reading I did on genetics and how when I came across MAO A  characteristics (they did studies on MAO A and antisocial behaviour/aggression and founda correlation), I thought that sounds exactly like my mom. So, we can be predisposed to these things.

I want to say too that you are 100% not in anyway responsible for her behaviours and don't have to give her the benefit of the doubt (biggest enabling sentence as Dr. Ramani said). Maybe you were made into the scapegoat by your family and they tried to teach you you were responsible? Given what you know about your f being a vulnerable narcissist, it could be that she learned these behaviours from him, but it only further illustrates that the rest of you made the choice not to, and she is responsible for her actions. I'm realizing how difficult I find mental separation to be from people. It's like I have to take things on and it becomes very difficult when it is bad behaviour that I feel I have to be responsible for.

That's good to remember that I can't find the next level without some emotional discomfort  :bighug:

Thanks Crackedice - it's difficult to sort through the feelings related to FOO. I have a really good thinking part as well that likes to keep things compartmentalized. My therapist has brought it up over the years that this is how children are wired. We take on all that stuff from our parents and try to make it right, or blame ourselves etc, because we need them to feel safe. That's just natural for children.

Thank you Hope - I wish you all the best for 2023 as well  :cheer:

Will take a break from sort of writing a part III about how I can see my truth telling, or semi-thwarted TT, role playing out now in work/relationships. I came across a couple of bits that are maybe helping me make sense of how I'm being in the world.

Borrowing this from another forum where she says she was raised by an nmom who was her first "hater" who "did everything possible to give [her] a distorted view of herself  because [she had] everything she wanted and was a constant trigger to her narcissistic injury. [Nmom]'s goal was to suppress [her] so she could feel above [her]...[nmom] saw herself as a victim at that time and was extremely jealous of anyone who had the things she wanted. [Nmom] saw herself as a victim and lived in survival mode, she had zero goals and made no effort to change or grow."

She goes on to say that because she was used to this kind of relationship, she found many people who were either narcissists or just insecure, who were totally silent on all of her good traits, talents, looks, anything good, which confirmed her self doubt.

The point that also really stood out for me was that another important trick that these people use is that you can't confront them for their comments because it is always something petty that will make you look petty for bringing it up. Bingo. I think of this as passive-aggressiveness sometimes or provocation. People often have a very good idea of what they're doing to try and get a reaction out of you. I feel that this is what comes up at the gym for example. I was always quite confident (was picked to go to leadership conferences as a child) but I often feel like this is a threat to people and they feel the need to take me down a peg or two. I know how hard I've worked and what I can do, that I can "back it up" but it feels like unnecessary competition a lot of the times and am just insufficiently dancing around other peoples' insecurities.

This brings me to the second thing that came up that really blew my mind this morning - the needing to show them that they didn't win. For example, I don't want to engage in the pettiness mentioned above and always try to ignore it but also the part that needs to show them they didn't win, they can't hurt me etc comes up. I also begin to think that these are "bad" people, but insecure, self-centred people can have empathy and aren't necessarily narcs. I think that recognizing there are a lot of narcissistic behaviours out there, which then can activate this part feels like a big understanding. I know I often feel (at least growing up) that other people must know better than me, they must have the same outlook, same heart, and give them the benefit of the doubt when it isn't necessarily true. I don't know these people. Why do I need to do that? I know I've been really open with people to find them do something hurtful and then I think I switch into the, " you didn't win, you didn't hurt me" mode which isn't coming from the adult me or necessarily helpful I think.

I received a text from sgf last night that started with Happy New Year and the celebration emoji followed by I changed my will and my nephew is getting everything. I have to laugh at the pettiness. There's also grief at the crappiness of my family and not having that loving family but I don't think I feel that bad about it. It's also a freedom.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on January 02, 2023, 05:46:30 AM
Hoo boy, a lot of your last few paragraphs really resonated with me.  I feel like a lot of my teenage years were spent living "in spite" of my parents and others.  I did things well / got good grades / was good at extracurriculars and kept it all away from my parents - in my head, they didn't have any right to take part in those successes or claim credit for those victories, because they didn't support me at all through them.  This was after several years of abuse / neglect, but it likely also created a self-perpetuating cycle - I didn't talk to them, so they didn't talk to me.  I eventually left my FOO and 'grew up', but I think all that pettiness (which was likely a way of acting out my built up rage against them) diminished the value of those successes for myself as well - I didn't do them for me, I did them to prove others wrong.  Not a good motivation it turns out.

Bleh, that text message is aggravating as well.  Every once in awhile I catch wind of something my FOO has done and it serves as a gentle reminder that I'm better off having left, but as you said it also has that small afterthought of grief attached to it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 02, 2023, 11:09:11 AM
Thanks Crackedice -
I just want to say that even though you were a teenager, I don't think it's on you for how you behaved with your family. It sounds like there was a good reason for you to do the things you did and at that point the parent should be the adult and step up. But I also understand that rational side that probably recognizes your m had you very young and didn't have the emotional maturity etc to deal with things or whatever, but abuse is abuse and I think you were standing up for yourself too when no one else did. I think it's hard not to blame yourself when your parent treats you like that though, or isn't there for you. It's what we're wired to do.

I'm mulling over your comments. It's hard because I know the adult me can see the pettiness in the behaviour and keeps wishing people would grow up or there's just no need to respond like that, and acting "butt hurt" when people behave in a certain way is not justifiable for me as an adult. The sticking point for me is that I know where that behaviour is coming from, and the 7/8 year old me had to deal with some very petty, immature, selfish etc people who behaved that way to her and was doing the only thing she knew at the time to survive when there was no one (except for my dad in a way) that was on her side or do it for her. It's hard to let that go when it still seems to be cropping up everywhere. I think doing more work around the idea of the truth teller will hopefully help let it go? I wouldn't say it's my pure motivation for doing things ie I want to show them (well probably with my stepfather) but I do feel it keeps me in emotional entaglements (at least internally) with other, not even significant people in my life, when it happens because it feels like a threat to my (psychic) safety. I guess because I never really had the opportunity to "just walk away" from my sf's behaviour growing up? I don't know.

After I decided to leave my m and sf and live with my dad, my sf told me I wasn't allowed to take any of my belongings/toys with me, pretty devastating for an eight year old. My gf was angry about it because he had bought me a TV and I couldn't take it. Looking back now through the lens of gf's narcissism, I can see that it wasn't really about me. It was about something he bought which is why he was angry. He didn't do anything when he knew that sf was making me run etc. I went from standing up for myself into punishment from sf and then prolonged punishment from m for abandoning her.

The text message is just another reminder of the petty behaviour on that side of the family and yeah I do feel like oh, I didn't call for Christmas, I didn't word the other text message in the best way etc and I have to stop myself. When I went back for Christmas last year I told him I didn't want or expect anything. I went for the real purpose to be there and help out after my gm's death. I had been talking to him every week/couple of weeks trying to help from a distance, offering to pay for hhome care for my gm etc, and going back at Christmas felt like being sideswiped. There was no real interest in me or that connection. Not to mention basically stealing from me and I'm done with it. I don't want to be involved with people like that any more. I don't care if they're family. It just makes me feel like I'm the one being the jerk (want to use a stronger word here) in the family. It feels so hard to think you're not that person.

Interesting that I'm just remembering how fixated on money my gm's brother is and how he tried to do the same thing with her that my brother did with me - swindle me out of the inheritance. I think I've recognized this before but forgot about it. Interesting that it's a pattern in the family.

I've started reading The Narcissism Epidemic and it's very good but there was something that stuck out that felt so validating right now. I've been living overseas for the last 15 years and sometimes I find a lot of cultural differences that feel very challenging with regards to how people behave to each other. Of course I thought this is me, there must be something wrong with me. What is starting to click is the idea of cultural narcissism, that there are things which are maybe cultural - passive-aggressiveness, sense of entitlement, focus on status, not showing empathy, celebrity worship which are also narcissistic behaviours. It's not that everyone is a narcissist but I think maybe dealing with these traits as someone growing up in a narcissistic family can be triggering. I don't mean this to be offensive, these are just my experiences.

In the book, the author talks about being in a remote northern town in BC and the teenage boy of the family was telling everyone at dinner that he made a remarkable shot at a distance. The author told the boy was in the US, he could probably make a video, upload it to youtube with some flashy music and become famous. The mother responded that where they live, they judge people on their character and what they have accomplished and for the boy not to brag. I don't care if sounds like Little House on The Prairie, I had to let out a sigh because I think that's similar to my dad's side of the family and how I grew up in BC. If you are going to boast people will come after you to make sure that you're "real."
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on January 02, 2023, 03:39:41 PM
Hi Dolly,

I just want to reaffirm the text message and sentiment in it is not your fault. I'm sorry so many of your family members are manipulative, petty, and abusive. It's impossible to navigate those dynamics with just one family member, let alone many of them. I am also so sorry about the circumstances surrounding your father's suicide. I had not realized before that you had been living with him and the trauma from that alone without all the other traumas from your family....it's a lot for you to have gone through.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 05, 2023, 11:22:10 AM
Hi Armee - thank you for your message. It was a lot to go through.

I had a chance to step outside the CPTSD "car" yesterday and just see how much of a trauma response I've had to someone when there didn't necessarily need to be a trauma response. Thank you microdosing (I think it helped in addition to the other work I've been doing). It's not "just" dating and that dating is "hard," I think it's a pattern of self-sabotage and undermining relationships that I don't get to see the other side of it very often. So, I'm hoping I can continue this.

I was reading about trauma bonding in relationships yesterday and it hit me (again) that this is what was happening. This person is pretty consistent I think and in my mind I'm looking for or creating the inconsistency. This person reacted this way so it must mean that he's not interested, or I'm x (not good enough, attractive insert whatever), or whatever other negative doomsday scenario I can think of. This is me reacting from a trauma place and it's exhausting to me and not fair to this person. It's just interesting how quickly I can step into this and not realize what's happening. For me, as long as I keep people at a distance, it's fine but when I start to feel something for someone, it's like all this stuff comes out. Slow down? Are you kidding? Full steam ahead into this anticipation, fantasy, whatever you call it. I think it's the power of expectations, which I think are a relationship killer.

I think I'm realizing that allowing the space for things to come up brings up some very difficult emotions that I've kept locked down because it was probably necessary for me to do that. Realizing now that it's been me fighting for survival since I was 8 (I'm sure it was much younger but I think the dynamic of me leaving set up some expectations/situations around relationships and feeling like I'd done something "wrong" at that age) and just focusing on having to make it in the world shut out a lot of things. It's hard to trust people and that there's not going to be a retaliation or humiliation, or that I'm not going to blow up my life by being vulnerable and showing someone who I am. I guess I have to trust in myself that even if other people don't see what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it, I can still love myself, and that just because no one in my family saw at that time what I was doing was standing up for myself, doesn't mean that I was ugly or stupid or how could anyone like me etc. Unfortunately, it's this stew of negativity that's been coming out around this person when there is a perceived rejection etc, but I also realized that I'm replaying the same dance I did with my mom. It's like I also expect guys to be competitive with me, or that I can't have my freedom, like what happened with my stepfather, or that behaviour in them (which I think a lot of guys have?) is triggering to me.

I think this is what happened before with the collegue at work and why I had such a strong reaction to it, or when people want to be close, I just kind of shut down. The idea of how to explain these things to people confounds me. I guess because I felt like I had to explain it all away because I did something wrong and I had to make it better, which is also an extension of the family dynamic - make them understand you and they will come around; if you just explain it right/whatever then you can get through to them and they will love you. Maybe this is "overloving?" I am also learning about emotional dumping and how you can only give people maybe a thing at a time to see how they react, and that ultimately, this stuff is mine to hold onto and work through. Does it suck that it might prevent me from having something nice with someone that seems really lovely? Yes it does. I can't put all this stuff on someone else. Does it mean that I can't set boundaries about what I need and what will work for me while I work through it? No.

I think there's another layer too and that somehow this was the sword I had to die on, or put all my hopes for a better relationship on? One of the things my gm told me was that men can't be trusted and they're going to do this and this and this to you. I've definitely met some guys that would but a video by Dr. Ramani, where she explains that your narcissistic family will tell you that "blood is thicker than water," and for me, at the end of the day, it's always your family that will be there for you, helped reframe it that I was believing an idea that was created so that they would always have access to me; maybe it wasn't good for my gm if I trusted a guy and had my own life, and the me who needed the security of the "family" took this idea on. I was also always looking for ways in which they acted that would show what my gm was saying was true. I think now that I've started to let that go and set boundaries, the other stuff, locked feelings around humiliation etc, has a space to come up now.

Your narcissistic family tells you this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqK2zHZrJFU
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on January 09, 2023, 05:08:05 AM
Hey Dollyvee, just wanted to reach out and empathize with your last post.  A lot of what you typed really resonated with me.   I spend a lot of time in my head, particularly after my wife does something unexpected or offensive, thinking of all the reasons she doesn't want me or I did something wrong or I'm unwanted, etc.  If we ever do talk about it and clarify what happened, it's almost always a misunderstanding by one or the other (or both) of us and never as big of a deal as I make it out in my mind.  Yet it happens time and time again.

I hate saying it because it seems so simple yet so difficult to do, but communication usually is the key (for my relationships anyways).  My couples' therapist would be so proud :P  I've been trying to make a concerted effort as of late to get out of my head as soon as possible (as soon as I recognize I'm in a shame spiral or even when I'm starting to misinterpret things) and say it out loud.  Even if the initial reaction is negative, it has almost always been better to talk it out than to let it stew internally for hours and then have a much worse conversation later.

Not sure if any of this applies to your situation or not, just thought I'd share my two cents :)  Hope you have a good week!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 12, 2023, 10:42:02 AM
Thanks CI - I think there's a big component of if I communicate about it, then that makes it real and I have to deal with yucky reality, which basically means those bad feelings come up. It's a very persistent pattern of thinking something is a certain way (ideal) and do anything to have that ideal because that's what means security (or whatever) etc. I guess the reality has always been that no one is ever really there for me when I get close (or that's what I feel), but I'm trying to change this thinking and that maybe one day it will be different.

I saw this pattern in an IFS once and could see that it went back to my m and gm. I guess this is the part where it shows up in me but I'm not entirely sure how to deal with this?
________
I started thinking about my dad today and how thankful I am that he was the way he was. I think he was probably my secure attachment figure which helped me make it out even though he had a lot of his own stuff going on. I saw a post by the Holistic Psychologist, and even though I don't resonate with everything she says, she had a good list of the ways mature parents will show up for their kids. My dad tried to do a lot of these things - explain that it wasn't anything to do with me when he lost his temper/that he still loved me; when I didn't get the grades I wanted he let me know that he understood and it was ok with him (he let me make my mistakes and didn't have crazy expectations), I think there were boundaries around what he spoke to me about, that there was a parent/child dynamic. There was also a freedom and a trust there. I don't know if it's hard to focus on these things because of how he died or not.

I started looking into suicide and how Tibetan Buddhists view it. I mean, it's not great. Basically, it is believed that you won't be born into human form again, but in the realm of "hungry ghosts." Hungry ghosts are the things within us that keep us addicted, sort of a bondage to the material world (as I understand it) and they are never satiated. It didn't help that the people who moved into the house after my dad died told me that they would hear knocking and noises, and they believed that it was the ghost of my dad. I had a few choice words yesterday for those people, telling those things to a fourteen year old who just lost her father that way. I did know their son and did a lot of babysitting for him (and was our neighbour which is why they bought the house in the first place), so I don't imagine it was said lightly.

I also learned that Akshobhya is one of the five medicine buddhas "responsible" or associated with practices when suicide comes up in the Vajarana tradition. He is the immovable one like the calm depths of the ocean, even when there is a storm on top, and shows things as they really are, not what is illusion. He also symbolizes the transmuted energy of anger and aggression into wisdom and enlightenment. My dad had a lot of anger issues throughout his life and it makes sense that this Buddha comes up. Though, I think it's more complicated.

I've never processed my dad's death in a way that was, he was in a lot of pain and he chose to get out of that pain. It just never seemed to fit and this wasn't the dad I knew and I don't think it was something that he kept hidden from me. At the time, my aunt spoke with his psychiatrist who said that taking prozac can sometimes elevate peoples' emotions to doing something they wouldn't otherwise do. Ok, so it was the medication that propelled it, but it also didn't seem to quite click. It was only after reading about the association of mycotoxins and suicide ideation, and knowing what my dad was exposed to renovating the basement, that it clicked. I think there are a lot of biological factors that influence our neurotransmittors etc. and our outlooks on/feelings towards life. Are genetics an expression of karma? Possibly. How does disease/genetic susceptibility play into the factors that determine our afterlife etc? i don't know. I think this is why it is difficult to talk about suicide. I don't think it's just the horrifying pain that everyone fears or thinks happened. Though, on the other side, it is just an incredible loss.

It's really interesting to me that the idea of illusion (or an ideal) is showing up in my relationships and that Akshobhya is the diamond buddha who sees things as they really are. I always wondered what impact my dad's suicide had on me forming relationships but it's never something I've pinned down. It's also interesting to me that narcissism might fall under the the realm of psychological hungry ghosts (an addiction/state to never being abandoned, or a form of psychological bondage). I think my m's and family's behaviour definitely brings up some anger in me as well.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 13, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
It sort of bypassed my radar, maybe I was disassociating (?), that I told two people about the text message from my sgf and their reactions told me a lot. It was like someone who had just smelled something bad where they crinkle up their noses and are like, what was that?

I think I'm also realizing how it looked for me/what my reality was being the scapegoat in my family (truth teller into scapegoat). How much people just accepted the dynamic that existed, that I would take on everything and they could treat me how they wanted. Even the bystanders that accepted it. I also told my aunt about the text and her reaction was similar, just well that's unfortunate. I said that I think this is something that's always been there and she didn't say much. The only difference for me now is that I'm saying something and putting up boundaries. So, the behaviour is more noticeable.

I think it was a lot to take on for a lot of years. To not have support from the family and to be treated like I'm the problem by the narc side, having to feel like I continually need to prove my actions and wonder why I'm always falling short when I feel like I have good intentions and then feeling like I'm crazy/don't know what's going on. I guess it's understandable why I don't feel like I can trust very well, why I push other people away because I just need to make sense of "this." That's one layer at least. It felt good to be able to tell them that but underneath, I think there is still the desire to push away after talking about it. Maybe that's where the dissociation is coming in.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on January 14, 2023, 09:28:08 AM
Quote from: dollyvee on January 13, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
The only difference for me now is that I'm saying something and putting up boundaries. So, the behaviour is more noticeable.

I think it was a lot to take on for a lot of years. To not have support from the family and to be treated like I'm the problem by the narc side, having to feel like I continually need to prove my actions and wonder why I'm always falling short when I feel like I have good intentions and then feeling like I'm crazy/don't know what's going on. I guess it's understandable why I don't feel like I can trust very well, why I push other people away because I just need to make sense of "this." That's one layer at least. It felt good to be able to tell them that but underneath, I think there is still the desire to push away after talking about it. Maybe that's where the dissociation is coming in.

Hi Dollyvee,
I remember my reaction when I first read what you wrote about the text from your sgf.  I had strong feelings about it, I think if I was to label those feelings it would be in terms of feeling angry at the lack of care and obvious callousness of such a text - and I imagined how you might be feeling about receiving it, and I felt like I wished that someone had been able to stop him being so cruel to you in sending such a text.  Somehow it seemed worse that he did it at a festive time of year - as if it was more cruel timing somehow.

I highlighted what you wrote because I think it's such a major thing that you've put in place a boundary - that's huge.  I see you realising and seeing clearly through a fog that might have obscured things before.  I don't know if you feel like that, it's just what came to my mind. 

Anyway, I wanted to send you a hug of support and care  :hug: 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on January 16, 2023, 05:24:00 AM
Hey Dollyvee!

It's empowering to have your feelings echoed by your peers when it comes to situations like that.  A lot of times I don't trust my own reactions to things (am I overreacting?  should I just ignore it?) so it's nice to have some reinforcement from an outside source to help realize that my reactions are valid and I can trust myself a little more.

Also a great example of how boundaries (once you have them) can help highlight how bad things were/are.  Once you can stand up for yourself it's somewhat surprising to see how much people are used to stepping on your toes and getting away with it - another thing I'm getting used to myself.

Hope you have a good week!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 16, 2023, 10:33:53 AM
Thank you CrackedIce - I found boundaries to be really difficult for a long time. Yes, you say no etc you should feel good right? Over time they've helped, but a lot of the time around people I also just feel "permeable," like I'm taking on their stuff. I think part of it could be empathy and being conditioned to be attuned to people (hypervigilance) and HSP. Dr. Ramani had a really good talk on setting boundaries with a narcissist and one of the things she talked about was psychological boundaries. It's not always black and white with boundaries (especially with passive-aggressiveness) where you're able to call out the behaviour, maybe in the way that I did growing up. Also, for me growing up, a lot of the time when the behaviour was called out it was gaslit or ignored with why are you mad at me? So, it feels as if there are never quite clear boundaries. Or if you voice them, they're ignored in a way and I had to take that on. I'm still learning about this and processing it.

It's interesting reading that Toxic Shame book by Bradshaw. There's a sense of responsibility that was taken on in kids from dysfunctional families and it becomes if I don't do this, then I feel this shame. I think perhaps that another reason why these psychological boundary issues are so persistent.
_______
So I had the following written below and never posted it before my session with t where I read her the text from my sgf and lo and behold, it didn't say what I thought it said. It said "leave estate to relative and you." I missed the "you" part. T asked me how I was  was going through my mind reading that and I said guilty and it's a trap. She validated that I had reason to expect to see something like that after what happened with my m's estate and sf. I can go into a lot of justification but I don't want to do that. In the past an error like that would have made me feel like I was making everything up and that my family did really love me and I was just being the awful one. I also mentioned if maybe this was hoovering. I also told t that I had been thinking about the blowout I had with my m and how my gm and sgf just sat there and didn't say anything. They said something to me after the fact of course, but never in the moment. Everything is just so wishy-washy.

From before:

Thanks Hope - I think it is huge but I also understand it in a way. I was a child who had to put up a boundary to the entire family when I was just one person saying this isn't right, or the way to treat each other. It was such an immense thing when I required security and safety from them as a child which is why I think it took time as an adult to do that. I needed to come to a place in my life where I was secure enough to do that. I think it's something each of us has to go through in our own way and it's so monumental. What a struggle really.

I know that when I told t that I was going back home in the summer and not going to contact my sgf, she congratulated me. I think part of me felt like a bad person for not doing that. Take time for myself? How could I do that? I'm being sarcastic I guess but it's also a reflection of my ICr voice at doing these things even if it's not always audible. (I also randomly (?) received a missed call from him on the morning I arrived which sent my alarm system off but over time felt better to speak with my cousins about my decision.) I just wanted to put this down because it often feels like you're fumbling through the dark with this stuff and then you come out on the other side and see a text like that, that I too think feels cruel in the way you mentioned, and it makes sense to do the things I did. ***I think it still makes sense after seeing the actual text but it's in a much more complicated way

I think there's a lot of layers in here too about what we're supposed to do generationally as grandchildren/children, how much you're supposed to forgive them because of their upbringing and the times they lived through etc. Or what we're told by society that we're supposed to do, how we should overlook certain behaviours etc. I brought up something with my aunt a few years ago about my alcoholic gm's behaviour and she told me that they were from a different time, there was no "free money" around like there is now etc and I told her that it doesn't mean it makes her behaviour ok. I've also been holding on to a story I saw on reddit about a family who's parents made a comment about how the first biological child was their grandchild and they omitted the two adopted children. They told the gps that they weren't welcome at Thanksgiving (?) dinner if they didn't apologize to the other kids and how they informed the other family what was going on. I feel bad for the kids being in the middle, but the whole dynamic stuck me. They were doing something that was hurtful and were not being excused for it, but being held responsible for their actions. I think it's something that so often gets pushed to the side (at least for me) because people don't want to see what's really going on.


I started reading the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw and I think this is the other, underneath layer that is going on. There's a lot of concepts to understand but can see how it's been influencing me. I came on here to write about how he mentions that toxic shame is often multi-generational and toxic shame based people find and marry other toxic shame based people (my gps, my m and sf |(and dad?)) and how the major outcome of the relationship is lack of intimacy. Yes, narcs can't be intimate because they don't have a sense of self, only a false self. It makes sense that I have no blueprint for intimacy/ issues with intimacy when there was no actual intimacy in the relationships around me (I think my dad was different, and his side of the family to an extent). I think it's also coupled with the fact that my m was an aggressor, so I associated closeness with that kind of intensity/conflict, and/or didn't have the tools or my own sense of self to communicate etc.

I think it takes some of the punch/feeling out of the "I'm not good enough, I'm such and such a person" dialogue in my mind about why I'm not in a relationship to a place where it's a little more, "I didn't have the whole picture of what intimacy was like growing up." This was of course coupled with, if I let this person in and it blows up like my family says it will (you can't trust anyone, men will do this to you etc) then it will blow up my security/survival. I'm just seeing how it is so hard to let someone see me, to expose myself that little bit, and I recognize that there's something in me that's shutting it down or wanting to go into withdrawal. It's terrifying really.

The other thing, well there's quite a few, that stood out was the idea of the Scapegoat in the family. This is the person who takes on all the shame in the family, which is usually multigenerational, when the fear, loneliness and hurt reaches a high level of intensity to lessen the pain for all family members. This person is usually the most sensitive. I know that this is what I wanted as a child, to help my family and for them to get better, and I did it as an adult too. I think it's another aspect of not keeping boundaries, that I do want to help and do these things. I guess it depends on if they're coming from an authentic self or a shame self?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 20, 2023, 10:25:36 AM
Thankful for the algorithms this morning for popping up this video in my feed. Though I wouldn't say it's completely about romantic relationships, but the emotional/attachment patterns in relationships.

Fearful-Avoidants: Breaking The Cycle Of On-Again Off-Again Relationships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PCcJsp30AA

I looked into attachment theory maybe 9/10 years ago before I started doing the cptsd and narcissism work. It came through being in a relationship with someone who was clearly avoidant and it triggered an anxious attachment in me. Therefore, I thought I must be anxious. I think attachment theory has evolved since them and there is now the Fearful-Avoidant. I've thought before that I keep getting into relationships with unavailable people because there is a part of me that wants to avoid that intimacy. I remember with my ex (non narc ex) when we were close it was like being engulfed and I just lost myself. What it felt like was anxiety and it was just too "much." Fearful-Avoidant with a mix of anxious and avoidant sounds like maybe it's a better fit for both sides of the spectrum.

There's a lot in here but the thing that stood out the most that I want to take on board is the ways to manage the "Otherness" because it sounds so close to what's going on with me.

Some points that stood out:
- can't connect deeply to other people because they have such intense trauma and secondary coping mechanisms that allowed them to navigate the world that are very different from other people

- feel "othered" so it's very intense when they meet someone and it's like they get you (you feel seen) that it becomes hard to leave that relationship even when it's not working for you

- if you start to develop the language and capacity to understand your own trauma responses in a way that allows you to communicate it to other people without feeling like your soul is bared and completely vulnerable, you can start forming more and more connections with people that don't have the same intense history

- (developing this allows you to) show up as your authentic self (let's go Toxic Shame book) in a way that doesn't overwhelm or scare off other people and you are bridging the gap between containing your experiences and those who have a more traditional upbringing

- the more connections you can form, the more you will feel at home in world so that you're just not vulnerable when you're trauma-bonded with someone 

This is a pretty big A HA for me and feels like the blueprint of what I've been trying to do in a way, but usually the end result when it didn't work (to connect etc) is that something is wrong with me, I scared them off, being hard on myself for saying the wrong thing etc, or being "x" enough and going into hurtful thinking. None of which were helping me manage my attachment style/trauma history better.


I watched this other one as well and it will take some time to digest for me because I think it's a lot. The lies that we tell ourselves and learned how to do from a young age  :disappear:  I used to think that I was a dishonest person and not to be trusted. I looked at my m's behaviour, and her way of no rules/ "getting away with things," and thought I must have learned some of this from her. But now, maybe what was coming up was that I learned how to lie in order to pass as "normal" and to not express myself for fear of a repercussion. I had to laugh when she said that part in the video. It's very, very familiar. I had to cover things up in my family to make them comfortable/be what they wanted and then I had to lie in the world to not show that any of these things had happened. This is also an underlying current/theme in things I've discussed with t. It feels very confronting in this video to see it like that, like POW.

10 "Survival Lies" You May Tell If You Have CPTSD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0AT5wOrG0&t=1139s
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 22, 2023, 11:19:34 AM
Reflecting on the CPTSD and the lives we tell ourselves video a bit more. I think it takes a while to sink in because there are so many of them in a way that's not even conscious. With CPTSD I  have been doing it for so long for survival, or to fit and adapt in the world because most people "wouldn't get it" and I would need to caretake their feelings or manage their expectations, that it's second nature and is done without even realizing it. But the thing that is for sure is that it means not showing up as my authentic self, but the self I had to create in order to survive. I don't think showing up as the authentic self feels great. T mentioned that there are layers to what had developed for me and it's like a tapestry. I didn't say much, but reflecting on it after it came up that it is not a great feeling this tapestry. I guess that's the feeling of toxic shame. Cover up with the false self and when you feel the false self, you feel shame.

Lots of things have been making sense about fearful avoidant in a good way and the other feeling is that it's just like scattering all the puzzle pieces all over the floor. I don't think attachment theory is the be all and end all, and the good news is that it can be healed, but I am noticing when I look at how I'm relating. There's a few points that I think can really change how I frame things:

1. The hypervigilance/trust stuff coming up that something is wrong is most likely attachment stuff/disorganized attachment. Fearful-avoidant or disorganized attachment learned at a very young age (pre 18 months) that the caregiver was scary or threatening (in my case tho I think absence could be there as well?). So, they have a need to be close and at the same time be fearful.

2. Don't have to lose my self in a relationship. I think this was coming up before watching Fleishman in Trouble and how she had her own world, but now I can say, Oh that's because of disorganized attachment. That I can set boundaries and not fear repercussions. I'm also noticing with something that happened in the last week that feeling of once I set a boundary, that was it. I was all of a sudden expecting the worst, like it would end things. Also, notice that I become hyper-critical about myself when dating like nothing is ever good enough or I would have to change myself etc.

3. It's not, I'm a bad person, or there's something wrong with me, that's attachment and fearful avoidants are most likely to feel that way.

I think what has maybe been obscured before is that I am seeking out a relationship to some extent based on my subconscious stuff, even if I think the person is interesting etc but it's not the relationship's responsibility to heal our wounds. (Though, I do feel like I want comforting and assurance but I'm not sure on what level). That we can seek out attachment and attraction with a person, get triggered attachment wise, and then do the work to heal those wounded parts (paraphrasing here), which I think is a good way to look at it. I had a look on the forum and I don't think there's a lot about attachement theory here.

I think it's thrown up some things for me in the form of trust and how that's playing out and has played out in the past in romantic relationships where I'm constantly questioning if this person is safe (disorganized attachment) and perhaps that can come across as being critical,  or detached, because it's coming from a trauma place. I know why I'm doing these things but I also know it's hard to explain to people (and show up as my authentic self) because have had to caretake peoples' feelings about trauma for so long to show up as normal (yes, please date me I'm not crazy). There is also a double bind where I have to trust someone enough to be my authentic self with this stuff and maybe let them know what's going on, a little bit about why I might be acting a certain way (without going all the way to soul bared - very difficult scale to navigate rn), but how do I know that I can trust them with that information in the first place? Something I read recently was that to be vulnerable around people is like having blood in the water next to sharks.

She also has a couple of great videos on limerance (another Wow, a ha one and is quite mind blowing for me) and on fearful avoidants and anger. Apparently, fearful avoidants were most likely the scapegoats in the family and their expressions with healthy anger were gaslit or suppressed (great comment on the video about how someone was passive-aggressively provoked into anger by her family so she was the angry one, creating a double bind of expressing anger healthily but being mocked for it so she couldn't get angry. Also feels familiar in my narcissist family and with my sf), and so they are more likely to erupt in explosive episodes furthering the idea that their anger is irrational and they shouldn't do it.

How The Fearful-Avoidant Attachment Style Deals With Anger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFrkbdUIYFM

Limerence: What Is It And How Do We Let It Go?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l5ALCPEBkc&t=1648s
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on January 23, 2023, 06:10:56 AM
Hi Dollyvee!

Not sure if this is the same as the attachment stuff you've been looking into, but the first book my therapist recommended to me (before we got deep into the C-PTSD stuff) was Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt.  It's mostly geared towards people in long-term relationships, but the main theory they work with is that people subconsciously seek out partners that re-enact their unresolved parental bonds, hoping to resolve them.  Kind of a "if they can love me, I'll be whole" type of deal.  But shortly after the honeymoon phase you begin to realize that you're not going to get what you're looking for (partially because you don't consciously know you're looking for it) and then both partners fall into a negative / disengaged pattern.

It's definitely been true in my case, in a lot of ways my wife has the same behaviours (although on a much, much smaller scale) as my unresolved parental issues, and there's been a lot of good exercises in the book that have helped me realize what I'm looking for, why I'm not getting it, and what we can do about it.

Anyways, thought I'd bring it up since it seemed to fit my experience as well.  Hope you have a good week!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 26, 2023, 08:01:44 AM
Thanks CrackedIce - I'll have a look at that book! I relate to the idea of the honeymoon phase a lot. After watching the video on limerance, I've been picking up more on  the feeling of "this is something I *want* to happen." Yesterday I was really fixated on the idea of reconciliation to the point where it became more obsessive thinking, and then I realized that's limerance. What I wanted was the feeling of making up after the reconciliation, that I'm seen and understood for how I'm showing up in the situation (and everything is ok I guess), which is something I never got from my mom.

The book that I read about attachment theory was Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. I think it's more specific to the attachment styles themselves and how they act out attachment wounding in different ways/patterns. This was before I started looking at narcissism in my family and was swinging pretty anxious in relationships where I kept finding avoidant partners. I guess it was something I recognized in people but it was never an A Ha, I can see where this can really help me. Probably because I was feeling if I can just quiet this part of me that needs someone then I'll be ok, but that wasn't really the issue. The issue was that some part of me was seeing them as scary or dangerous. Learning about fearful avoidant now just helps reframe, or quiet I think, a lot of anxiety about what was going on in the way that if I can name it, I can identify it when it comes up and pause, say this is a trigger/or I'm dysregulated right now I need to take some space.

I was reading about peoples' experiences as an FA and something I thought was me, that I needed to do this, this is how I get through was an attachment wounding that a lot of other people have. The need to say "screw you, I'm out," or as I call it cut and run, is really common when FAs experience rejection/perceived rejection. What I never really knew was that FAs find emotional intimacy very confusing because of the push/pull dynamic and these heightened emotional "outbursts," or leavings, are a way to deal with those feelings. I've been saying recently that x's behaviour is really confusing, thinking that it's this person and that they're probably better off without me (wanting to end the relationship), but I think what was going on internally was a reaction from my attachment system and that intimacy is confusing for me. This was me trying to find a way to deal with those confusing feelings and basically sabotage the relationship.

Where it's showed up for me again is that I set a boundary and felt good about setting it (it was a good boundary), but didn't realize that my attachment wounding was came up afterwards. I was expecting to have a bad reaction/repercussion to setting the boundary, so the moment I "perceived" something negative from this person, I went into cut and run, that's it it's over. Seeing a "good" boundary and an FA "boundary" together makes me realize that acting in an FA way allows me to think that I have boundaries when I really don't. I don't need you is not really a boundary, or a healthy one at least.

More things about FAs that I'm realizing relate to me and shared by other people:

- always expecting to be screwed over by people, so always planning for that outcome

- wanting to keep things superfical and light (or go very deep)

- don't want to appear needy; having to need something from someone

- when "cut & run" happens it's not that I'm angry at the person, but more angry at myself for being stupid enough to be lied to (that I did something to jeopardize my security)

- paranoia - brain going into you're not safe mode

- when cut & run/emotional outburst happens there's usually an awareness that it was an overreaction and try to repair things

What I'm also realizing is how hard it must be for the person on the other end to relate to someone who is looking at them like a threat. I hope that becoming more aware of these patterns when they come up will allow me to pause and regulate better.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 26, 2023, 08:58:49 AM
Hmmm...I had a couple posts that I reposted but they disappeared. The above I saved but the other will have to live on in my memory. Though there is a really good podcast on secure relating that I want to share again. The idea of power over, power under and empowered I think is really important as it related to FA. After reading CrackedIce's recovery letter the other day it brought up the idea of respect, which my sf insisted I show him, and set up the dynamic for power over/power under. Same with my m as an aggressor and with some of the things she did. As an FA, you're constantly looking at the world as a threat and it reinforces this dynamic. The catch-22: how can you ease off feeling defensive/power over when the world has people who do want to take advantage of you etc?

Mistaken Assumptions to Re-Examine for Relational Connection
https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/mistaken-assumptions-to-re-examine-for-relational-connection-w-ann-and-sue-188/
_______

After work yesterday, I started thinking/ruminating about the "flirtation" and going back and reinterpreting his actions so that it was likely now that he wasn't interested in me etc. I didn't feel like that when I woke up and thought it's best just to continue being friendly and give space. I realized that my attachment system had become activated at work and I was now using this relationship/limerance as an projection outlet for what I was feeling. Not really great for a connection between two people.

I felt "emotional" at work and realized a few things, that I if I'm peppy, or upbeat and convivial, (which can actually be quite engaging and puts me in a place where I can relate to people), it means that I don't have to feel any of the "feelings" that come up (most likely toxic shame stuff). I think realizing this in the morning maybe put me in a place for the rest of the day where I was coming from a more authentic self place, but I don't think this is the environment to do that, and became activated. I mean it's always good to relate to someone from your authentic self I think, but there's also a learning curve for how to do that securely (instead of just covering it up) and I don't think I'm there yet.

I feel like for the last number of years I've been learning how to survive in this environment where's there's very little secure relating. There's always the possibility that they could reject you and move on to something/someone else and I think that's pretty motivating and activating for an FA. I was with someone that in my mind I'm quite fond of but I was questioning the dynamic between us and what was happening. How much of this fondness is because there is some work security there and helps my attachment system? There's also a lot of misogyny and I think that activates the power over/power under part big time.

I had changed my md to a smaller dose as it's stronger and thought this was an emotional hangover from taking it the day before, which could be true in part. I think the md was doing what it does though, helping you see things as they are, but then there's the emotional catch up that comes in dealing with it when it happens. I guess it's just surprising when it feels like it threatens some part of your life that you need to be secure. Well, maybe "needed" in the past, childhood trauma sense but yikes, the pressure does feel on to change this stuff so it doesn't blow up my life. Though maybe that's what I need.

When I made the realization about the activated attachment system, I didn't feel an immediate sense of how to self-soothe or calm myself down. Though I think knowing what is going on and why thoughts are coming up is a big step. I've also been realizing how strong my outer critic is, which I don't think gets talked about a lot. It's like antenna for sensing dangerous things that people say, do in the environment. I see it as a projection, or picking up on how other people are, that might get them picked on etc. Then, of course, a part of me wants to show them that I'm not like that, and can help protect them, which probably comes across as very inauthentic and that I myself am harbouring some of that energy even when I don't think I am. At least consciously, maybe it's in my shadow subconscious. I guess it's a power over/power under dynamic again. I will take on this to beat you at what you're trying to put onto me. This dynamic is in the Toxic Shame book but can't remember the name of what this is.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: OwnSide on January 27, 2023, 02:13:56 AM
Wow, you have been doing a ton of research and self-reflection. Cheering you on (if this is a good pace for you) and encouraging self-care (if this is feeling like a lot).  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 27, 2023, 10:21:37 AM
Thanks Ownside - I think it is a lot and probably a bit of both, but it does feel like a lot.  I can't believe how deep this attachment pattern is in my responses and feelings towards people/situations, and that it's actually very similar to what other people with FA go through.

Right now I can feel myself "deactivating." Before I would have made up some story, or listened to the voice that said I'm not good enough, I'm not this or that (the FA go to) as justification for pulling away and shutting down where I could continue believing that. But when I start to acknowledge that no, I'm deactivating, I realize that there's some emotions coming up where I don't want to put myself out there to be vulnerable because it doesn't feel safe, or that I'm going to have to deal with hostility or ridicule.

I also wonder if, on some level, my actions are subconsciously motivated so that I will be in a situation where there is hostility and ridicule? But I don't know.

I read that a way to approach deactivating is to begin to poke holes in the thinking when it comes up, the need to pull away I guess and that there is a "danger" there. There are dodgy people out there and it's good to be mindful of that. I guess it's more trusting in my ability/intuition to handle a situation. Though sometimes it is difficult to tell intuition from triggered trauma. I've definitely felt a sense of ignore all signals, I'll just be open to everyone because it must be me that's wrong, but I think that setting boundaries has been helpful to see that no, that's not true. I also wonder if the needing to be open to everyone is the loss of self that FAs experience in relationships, just the subconscious belief that I have to give everything up.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 28, 2023, 11:23:24 AM
I listened to this Therapist Uncensored podcast on complex trauma and attachment which was pretty interesting. Around the 22 min mark he starts discussing attachment as the root cause of complex trauma and how it's possible to address complex trauma through attachment theory without going into the trauma itself. He's a very interesting guy and came across him before through a book he wrote on the A Tri meditation. Someone also recommended a video of his before on visualizing your ideal parent as a way to help with attachment but I never did the exercise.

TU157: Treating Complex Trauma and Attachment with Guest Dr. Daniel Brown REPLAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJIiJE6OeYg&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=39

It's really hard to know what is intuition right now and what is possible AT or deactivation.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 28, 2023, 09:29:35 PM
Hi Dolly,

I followed your link to Dr. Brown and listened to the podcast. I'm very interested. I went to his website at www.attachmentproject.com and filled out the free attachment style quiz. I scored as "Anxious/Preoccupied". My report read me like a book. It was validating. Now I'm thinking about buying his Anxious/Preoccupied style workbook. It looks like it would be a lot of fun for me.

Thanks again for sharing the treasures of your journey with us. I am always interested in the things that you share.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 29, 2023, 09:53:42 PM
Thank you PC - it is really validating to look at things as patterns relating to attachment style and not that there's not something inherently wrong with me. It's a big can of worms. I think I remember taking that quiz in the Attached book and at the time it labelled me as mostly anxious with maybe some FA but looking at it now, i'm for sure FA. Maybe the Dan Brown quiz is more thorough but it might be worth having look at the Heidi Priebe videos on youtube relating to anxious and fearful avoidant as FAs can swing either anxious and/or avoidant depending on the relation. One thing she mentioned is how it relates to intimacy and anxious will always need to have that connection and the same with FAs for a while, but then they start to feel too enmeshed and have a loss of self, so will deactivate.

Listened to this video today which was helpful in that it made me realize that I don't really know my emotions. I'm sort of attuned but it does feel like a lot of suppression because I need to "get things done" as she explains in the video. I always had to do things, there was never time to feel. I'm also realizing that they're confusing and if they come up, it's like I don't know what to do with them. She mentions that as adults we have to problem solve or look for solutions on what to do with them. I don't think I ever learned that, or that I was capable of doing that? Or that they were wrong when they came up. So, maybe that's why they feel confusing and scary.

Learning Self-Regulation Through Self-Attunement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TplLHhDRqAQ

I also had a good session bringing this up with t and feel like a lot of different parts/areas are starting to make sense that have been coming up over the past few years.

I have been ruminating tonight and just reread what I wrote a few days ago about poking holes in the thinking when it comes up. I forgot about that. It's really interesting to see in action how "normal" this thinking is for me, but it's not me, and I do feel better to look at it like it's not a danger and that it's attachment thinking.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on January 30, 2023, 02:39:42 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on January 29, 2023, 09:53:42 PM

I also had a good session bringing this up with t and feel like a lot of different parts/areas are starting to make sense that have been coming up over the past few years.


Hi Dollyvee,
This is so great, and I'm pleased that you had this good session, and that a lot of different parts/areas are starting to make sense. 

I also wanted to thank you for sharing your resources that you listen to and find helpful, as I am keen to watch and listen to some of them, and often I think to myself that I wish there was more time in life to fit everything in and listen mindfully.  Depending on how I'm feeling, I don't always manage to act on my intentions to do something.  But you putting links to your resources is very helpful. 

:hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 03, 2023, 10:04:23 AM
Thank you Hope :hug:

I watched this video yesterday and I got to the second thing, learning where your boundaries are and how it shows up in your body when a boundary has been crossed, and what you need to do to address that boundary crossing, and I think I mentally tapped out. I think this is a really big one for me and I'm noticing how I'm still reeling from asserting a boundary before. That I have a boundary "wake" that comes along and tries to undo the boundary because I feel so bad (?), so guilty (?), so ashamed (?), so needing the person I set it with. How did that happen though? How do I need this person so much that I can't say when something doesn't feel right for me? Intellectually, I can understand this, but I don't know how it got to that point? On what level and why/how am I giving something (my power I guess?) to this person? Am I confusing love and security? Acceptance and security? Security as protection? I think it's pretty interesting on what a deep/subconscious level this stuff comes up on.

5 Tools For Building A Healthy Relationship With Yourself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GVIGWY1G0

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 05, 2023, 12:35:42 PM
Feel like I'm going through something rn. That I'm really fighting the thinking of "I can't trust this person," "this person did/didn't do x and it must mean," and then I slowly start realizing that, wait a minute, FAs have a hard time trusting people. This is my attachment coming up, and then, is it my attachment? What if it's real? I had an intuition and set a boundary before, how do I know that it's not being crossed again? Then there's the other part going, this is boring surely there's a better option where you don't have to do this stuff (the "perfect" vision), which then becomes deactivation on almost a body level. But it's not even that I want another option, it's just the feeling of being safe and protected. So, it does feel like fighting my own brain.

Maybe it has to do with expectations. That there is a part of me wanting something to be a certain way, turn out a certain way. Is this the part that needs to feel safe and protected? If so, how can that be a bad thing? I guess it's forming an idea that things have to be a certain way because I'm bringing past trauma thinking into the situation because myy feelings have never been protected by someone (ok how do I protect my feelings)...then fall into the old cycle of how I did it growing up.

Also, something came up during my session with t that I don't know where it came from or why.

TW ~

I was speaking with t, I think about the 500mg of psilocybin I took over the Christmas break and what my experience of it was like. I felt pretty lucid in explaining it. It was nice to go back and talk about it. I was describing the need to figure something out vs what came up during the experience. I had taken it with the intention to deal with the triggered feelings that were coming up when I was around this guy. This weird onslaught of stuff and how I couldn't focus on that in the experience, to get *the* answer, but how feelings manifested in a different way and I had an image of a pink penis show up clearly in my minds eye. I don't know why and where it popped up from. I didn't mention it to t but I think I will next session.

TW end ~

I'm just realizing that there's stuff around sexuality coming up around me and this "crush." I guess now is maybe the time to look into sexuality stuff a little bit
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 08, 2023, 08:45:13 AM
Looking over my journal a bit and realizing how much I have been processing in the past few months.

I'm slowly making my way through The Shame that Binds You. I read five pages and then have to process it because it's so relevant, and cutting in a way. You want the truth, there it is. I feel like anyone who doubted if they were abused should start around p48. I don't know how this was written 35 years ago and it's still not common knowledge how there are different kinds of sexual abuse, and that it's not just touching? Maybe this was just my family and how messed up it was. Of course being in an NPD family I didn't trust any of my reactions or "icky" feelings when they happened.

Overt sexual abuse: "This involves voyeurism, exhibitionism. This can be outside or inside the home. Parents often sexually abuse children through voyeurism and exhibitionism. The criteria for in- home voyeurism or exhibitionism is whether the parent is being sexually stimulated. Sometimes the parent may be so out of touch with their own sexuality that they are not aware of how sexual they are being. The child almost always has a kind of icky feeling about it."

Emotional Sexual Abuse: "Emotional sexual abuse results from cross-generational bonding. I've spoken of enmeshment as a way that children take on the covert needs of a family system. It is very common for one or both parents in a dysfunctional marriage to bond inappropriately with one of their children. The parents in effect use the child to meet their emotional needs. This relationship can easily become sexualized and romanticized. The daughter may become Daddy's Little Princess, or the son may become Mom's Little Man. In both cases the child is being abandoned. The parents are getting their needs met at the expense of the child's needs. The child needs a parent not a spouse...Cross-generational bonding can occur with a parent and a child of the same sex. A most common form of this in our culture is mother and daughter. Mother often has sexualized rage, i.e., she fears and hates men. She uses her daughter for her emotional needs and also contaminates her daughter's feelings about men."

The first I'm pretty sure happened with sgf where would mention porn stars or other things around me (and friends?) as teen age girls. Gf had some inappropriate comments and "touching" when I was younger, probably around 8-10? Gm was definitely involved in cross generational bonding and expressed hatred towards men quite a bit. It also makes sense I guess the dream I had where I was on the date with my gf and his date and I was the one who had to decide things. I think I was inappropriately put in situations I shouldn't have been in by both gm and gf, and it is shame that made me not want to even look at this stuff. Couple with, of course, it never would have been acknowledged if I expressed it.

It also resonated a lot about the loss of self and how the child becomes fantasy bonded to the caregiver first conciously and then unconsciously through internal identification with the parent. I remember being in university and having to form an idea about what I thought or who I was in relation to people and there was just nothing there. Overtime it was a reaction to what my gp's thought. Like I still had to take on what they thought, but I was angry at them for not understanding that it didn't have to be that way (I don't know if that makes sense), but it felt like it was always an orbit in some way around what they thought about the world, and their fears about things were still very much alive in me. I guess that is the fantasy bond and identification with them. The illusion that there was a love relationship, which I have slowly been breaking apart the last few months with knowledge of gf as a narcissist too.

I tried to set the intention the other night to remain lucid in my dreams and awake before I went to sleep. I had a feeling come up of just being lost, not knowing what I really wanted like I had to look to my gm for validation and approval about what was ok. It was something I knew well. It also struck me that during the energy work I did when I tried it, I also didn't progress (do the exercise) and so when I started IFS to have the parts separate, there was a part (that was a protector part?) where I got the feeling of my gm though I don't think it was necessarily her? Maybe this is the internal identification/fantasy bond? She always said that she would look after me and protect me etc, and I guess the child self needed/wanted that. Of course it came at the expense of my actual self because I could never show any emotion with her. So, it's not exactly protecting "me."

I really resonate with the post by VeryFoggy too and how you just see these people around you that want something from you but aren't willing to respect you, and how you feel like you go out of your way to accommodate them and they just treat you like garbage. I would like to stop doing that as well. I also do think I get triggered just being around people because there are no boundaries there, and it's like I'm back with my aggressive m. It's hard trying to explain that to people and I think I've covered it up so long trying to be "normal" and people just think I'm weird or afraid of things like it's a joke.



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 09, 2023, 03:15:58 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I think I'd like to read that book 'Healing the Power that Binds You' - I am glad you're finding it helpful.  It sounds like a really useful book. 

I think you've been doing so well at processing so many tough things - I wanted to say that.

:hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 09, 2023, 11:33:18 PM
hi Dolly

Yeah, you've been processing a lot lately. Your posts are informative and helpful to us because of how much work you're putting into your own healing. Impressive.

I can resonate with the enmeshment of parents creating an inappropriate bond with the child. My mother was very much like that with me. It was mostly emotional, hating every female in my life; from my teachers to my childhood female friends to any girlfriend I ever brought home (Which is why Coco and I married in secret...so Mom couldn't screw up our relationship). It's real and it's confusing. I lived it myself. IN fact I'm STILL living it. That kind of inappropriate bonding lasts a lifetime. And there was some very inappropriate touching when I was 8. A memory I'll never forget as long as I live this life.

I can see how at least one of your IFS parts are carrying your gm's personality into today's decisions.  I struggle with knowing what I want today because my parents and elder siblings all made me feel like I was too weak and stupid to know what I wanted.

So as I empathize with pretty close to everything you say, I'm struck by how impressed I am that there is a lot of good help out there, and you are definitely taking advantage of it.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: CrackedIce on February 11, 2023, 05:37:24 AM
Hey Dollyvee!

I keep forgetting how good the Bradshaw books are, particularly that one.  You're right in that it's quite frank and sometimes brutal, but at the same time I appreciate not beating around the bush like some other books have done.

The fantasy bond is definitely a thing.  I resonate with what you said about coming up blank when thinking about how I relate to others, it was an observation that startled me a few weeks ago.  Not knowing my own needs, or what a relationship bond even looks like with others, is a void I struggle with.

Not much help, sorry.  Maybe knowing you're not the only one in the boat helps?  Hope you have a good week in any case!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 12, 2023, 08:15:27 PM
Thank you Hope - I think it is a really good book. It's called Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw. I'm still working out  about how I feel about his reliance on Alice Miller knowing what we know now, but the concept of shame as a core would is very valid I think and can see a lot of what he discusses in my life.

Thank you Papa Coco -  I'm really feeling you on the jealous of women in your life thing. I'm realizing now how much of a thread that was with my gm being jealous of women in my gf's life after they divorced and how that was put onto me (that she has to ensure these women aren't after money for me and my brother, or that was the official line), and not to mention that I think some of that jealousy was directed towards me by both my m and gm. It's a lot to unpack and I'm seeing how it's showing up in my interactions with other women which t and I are hopefully going to do some EMDR on. This is really big stuff and we are picking through it. I'm also starting to realize that maybe that part needed the security from my gm at that time when I was very young, and I attuned to her and picked up on her views/attitudes and how without her I feel lost (not my own person because it wasn't a healthy attunement but a narcissistic one). Now I'm just realizing that there's stuff around security coming up, which is from such a young age, and what do I do about that? And is this even just stuff from my childhood or a continuation of generational patterns and traumas? Rhetorical questions of course. I just want to move past some of this stuff.

Thank you CrackedIce - it is helpful to know that there are other people going through the same thing. I don't feel like I can go out into regular society and talk about fantasy bonds haha. though am trying to ease some people into finding out their attachment styles. Comments about the Bradshaw book are always welcome too. It's really nailed my family dynamics (not talking about things, having to be perfect etc etc) and I think maybe it takes the work of a village to change those patterns.

Was going to write some other stuff but had an experience this morning of some teenagers getting access to the building which has sent my nervous system in a bit of a tailspin. I answered the buzzer and didn't know who they were asking for so hung up. They kept buzzing back and someone else must have let them in. They came to my door and kept knocking. Then they started shouting through the letterbox to wake up you dozy slut and stuff like that. I didn't know they were teenagers but thought it was a group of men. My door has a window in it and my phone was upstairs so it wasn't like I could get it. They moved on to the neighbours and I called the police. I went to a place of fear pretty quickly. I noticed that I was trying to push this down (gaslight myself into thinking it wasn't that bad or I shouldn't be upset about it), and thought it would be good to acknowledge what happened and write about it.

More stuff this week though it's a bit confusing. Trying to know what I'm feeling when it comes up, which is not as easy as it sounds. Still working on the boundary stuff. Although, I also feel like a part of me is resisting going deeper with it. To say that I actually need you to be supportive of me with that stuff because this other person's behaviour is not ok and I'm not the problem.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on February 12, 2023, 11:17:27 PM
I'm really sorry DollyVee about what happened today. That is legitimately frightening. I'd feel very shaken.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 14, 2023, 08:41:45 PM
Dolly!

OMG!!!! I agree with you to resist the temptation to minimize what happened. Teenagers are often just pranking, but in today's environment, there are a lot of VERY dangerous teens in the US now.

I would be absolutely terrified if that had happened to me. I hope the police do SOMETHING to try and keep that from happening again. And I hope Everyone in your building agrees to work together to stop it from happening again.

Suddenly my barking dog situation seems pretty darn unimportant.

Dolly, Like Armee, I'm shaking a bit in my boots at what happened to you. I SINCERELY hope it was just random acts of violent pranking and nothing more serious. I hope you can keep a phone by your bed now and be ready to call 911 if it ever happens again.

Your friend, PC:  :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 18, 2023, 10:28:20 AM
Thank you Armee & Papa Coco - it was scary and for so long I never had anyone to speak to about those things. So, I would just shove everything down no matter what it was and soldier through it. I'm trying to name stuff that's coming up emotionally even though I think it might still take me back to those places mentally when I was younger and had to do it all on my own. It does not feel great to feel those things though.

I contacted the police about the incident and they're following up. The neighbours downstairs got a look at them so something might be able to be done. The women next door was quite shaken by the incident as well.

Still trying to process things that are coming up. I feel "caught" in this flirtation that's going on a bit like a part of me (not really conscious) is doing everything "not to mess it up." Although, I don't even know what that really means. This should be the time where I'm figuring out if I like spending time with the person, wanting to get to know them better, but I think because I do like them my brain/body are on high alert for any signs of danger/rejection. There was an issue too with another woman around him where I became defensive because she has been pretty passive aggressive and petty towards me in the past. I got activated by this person and I felt like this guy went into protective mode and looked at me as if I was the problem. Normally, I have been not really jealous (and I wouldn't call this jealous though I'm pretty sure that's how it was interpreted), and we're both adults. We're not in a relationship and if he's going to flirt/date other people that's "fine," I mean up to a certain point of course, but I had to say no to her behaviour. Now I can't really get past that I feel like I'm being blamed for this to open up and be vulnerable. It would be ideal to talk about it, but I also don't feel like it's at the stage where I can do that. It's really activating the danger signals in my brain and I don't know if that's because I really can't trust this person or if it's my attachment system. And because I can't "solve" this, I think I'm just shutting down/deactivating in general with people, or being sort of angsty/agitated/anxious.

I think in the past people would have said "there shouldn't be any work in the beginning of a relationship," or something like that and I don't think those people knew anything about FA and what it's like. So, now I'm in my "if I was alone everything would be better; I feel much better alone" frame of mind and I think it's just to deal with those feelings that are coming up, but at the same time, I'm not sure how to deal with them in any other way.

I actually wrote a part of this post a few days ago but it felt overwhelming, that I didn't feel comfortable sharing or didn't trust my feelings at the time to post it. I don't know which one, probably a bit of each. Rereading it now, I think, yeah that makes sense.  :fallingbricks:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Not Alone on February 18, 2023, 11:30:20 AM
The people at your door sounds terrifying.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 18, 2023, 07:08:20 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I'm glad that the police are following up on the incident that occurred the other day - I think it sounds scary, and I hope you won't have any further things happening like that. 
:hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 19, 2023, 06:54:08 PM
Dolly,

I'm feeling your pains around your new relationship. I'm impressed by how you are wondering how much of this distress is valid and how much is your trauma. That's a sign of a growing sense of real-life personal awareness.

Your own questions are probably 100% accurate. This other female really is trying to poison your time with this male. You're probably not imagining that. The fact that you can sense and identify how your trauma CPTSD is ramping up is also a sign that you are gaining a healthy awareness of the trauma responses, and you are properly trying to balance real life with trauma-drama. It's impressive. Just being aware of it shows that you're light years into the healing process. If you weren't so aware of how trauma works, you might have given up on this guy a long time ago.

I'm so on your side. I really hope you are able to keep moving forward, EFs and all, with some wonderful and fun times with this person of interest.

If you're not afraid, there's no need for courage. Courage moves us forward through the fear. I see you as a brilliant person who has been notably helpful to me in my own recovery. I hope you are able to balance reality with trauma. Both are real at this point. Only you can pick the feelings that are real versus the ones that are from past relationships.

You're smart and strong and I hope this guy is smart enough to see that in you too.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 20, 2023, 10:58:43 AM
Thank you Hope & Not Alone - it was scary and I'm trying to acknowledge the part of my brain that I think wants to shut those feelings down.  So, thank you for helping me talk about them and validate them.

Thank you Papa Coco - that is validating to hear. I feel like so many people wold label me as jealous and that's that, and I think especially because it's quite passive aggressive so they can act innocent and sweet. Then, I'm triggered with all this stuff and I guess can't detach (the inner threat of aggression etc) so I guess I react in some way, or try to big myself up around it which only makes me look guilty. So, not only do I feel like I have to deal with this person's energy but "fight off" other peoples' perceptions of what is going on, and again, feeling like I'm on my own doing it. It's a pickle but I do think you're right that learning about trauma has helped me see this in a different way, with more perspective and less reactivity than before, and thank you for seeing that. Your reflections on things, and courage to keep trying, have also been very inspiring on the forum and for me.

Your last comment too brings out another direction. Yes, it would be great if he saw this too and is what I hope someone would do. It also brought up the thought that I don't want this, and maybe why I hide, because my sf was so jealous of me and would put me down and mock me, and maybe in part why I can't help treating relationships like a competition on some level. I'm just putting this down because I think relationships are a many layered minefield for people with cptsd and not that they aren't already for people who haven't had to go through any of this stuff.

I don't really know how to describe what's been happening the past week or so, that my brain has been in some kind of shut down and internally I just feel this push. I've been coming on the forum and reading posts, but there's just nothing really when it comes time to comment. It's hard to even recognize that it could be attachment stuff, it's just a push to do something, for answers, to get rid of the feelings and be safe. There is no open heart, considering the other person. I think I remember this feeling a lot growing up.

I read something about relationships and trust and how if your brain is stuck in "something could happen, something could go wrong etc" that they are right. Something could happen, that person could cheat (or pick someone else), or it could end, and that we can never be 100% certain of how someone chooses to use their own free will. They also said that instead of focusing on trusting the other person, what if you tried trusting yourself 100% - to be able to handle anything that happened further down the line, any negative emotion; to trust yourself and not have someone else's choices mean anything about your worth and value; to trust yourself to have your own back and be kind to yourself regardless of what anyone else chooses to do?

On my walk yesterday it came through that, no matter what happens I do have me and all the things I've done (and I can do it again?) if this were to end.  I guess it's some form of holding on, needing to make it work, needing that security, but it's so strong. It just blacks out everything else and it's not "fun," there's no lightheartedness or play that comes along being with someone, just a rigidity in needing to make something "work." It's probably a time when I need to take a step back and regulate myself but the push is so strong. I think there's so much around no being able to trust myself growing up that my feelings or reality weren't validated, so I just kind of dismiss them. Showing up for yourself is really hard when you tell yourself that it doesn't matter; to override the voices that told me I don't matter. This isn't even taking into account setting boundaries or identifying what I need in a partner.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 20, 2023, 02:15:20 PM
Wow...these podcasts are really good. In relation to the post above from earlier today, I don't know why it's so hard to come out of that push feeling - that nothing is going to work out etc etc - when when I do I find things like this that really help sum up what I'm going through.

Connecting with Your Subconscious to Understand Your Defenses Session
https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/disarming-human-defenses-connecting-with-your-subconscious-to-understand-your-defenses-session-5-of-5-187/

I think there's a lot in here and will take a bit of time/effort to put together projection and what's been coming up the past week in regards to the situation I wrote about, but one thing that did stand out and I would like to learn more about it is "ceding," which basically means to give up power.

Sort of paraphrasing here, but they explain that instead of holding self where you have to experience the distance between you and someone else, the experience of that distance is activating for you. Rather than deal with that tension which could mean I'm going to be judged, left, or abandoned, ceding is a way of giving over oneself. You're basically ceding your own needs to keep the other person happy for example. You're maybe going to avoid feeling your own empowerment (or doing things that give you empowerment for example like setting boundaries) and someone leaving if they're unhappy.

This tension coming up is through differentiation after you've said/done something/set a boundary where you've said I'm not going to let you do that, give you that. By saying no you have to accept all your inner desires (good and bad - greed etc). All these things whichh might hhave been disavowed as a child. This also applies to parents who might have been threatened by a child with a differentiated self like in a narcissistic family. For those children there was a very real outcome that if they didn't cede there would be have been rejection, judgement or rageful anger. So, there was a good reason we learned to cede. Also go into talking a little bit about how holding your own with difficult people requires healthy aggression.

I can see the situation with this other woman and there is a very real part of me that just wants to give up and give over because things would be easier that way. I think the experiences of dealing with m's narcissistic rage sort of freeze me into thinking that this is going to be the outcome, that it's too overpowering to stay in my own self. I think maybe the feeling that's been coming up is the tension of differentiation and my experience that every time I differentiate (have a need, make a boundary and stick with it), I'm going to be rejected or abandoned. I think it's also coming up that I can't control this tension or what's going on, that I have to allow space for other people to do their own thing, which is also really scary.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 23, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
Still kind of dealing with these feelings in a sort of feeling purgatory I guess. I was feeling good after going to work and getting some space too.

I started reading Richard Schwartz's, "Are You The One You've Been Waiting For," and I can't believe that I "forgot" that this push feeling is probably a part. It's not all or nothing something, but a part's, or exile's, triggered reaction to what is going on. Realizing that I think is helping me step into Self a bit and see the forest for the trees.

"You come to hate the fact that you are acting so weak and clinging, and can see what it's doing to your partner, yet you can't stop yourself. Your inner critics frantically try to shame you out of it and try to lock up your exiles again, which only makes your exiles feel worse about themselves and more desperate, so they take over more. It's likely that David, like many men, hated his own needy exiles, so when he saw Elizabeth acting that way, he reacted to her the same way he reacted to his own—with distance and contempt." I think in the past this would have been left like this and I would have been blamed, and blamed myself, for the situation and that I caused it and then there is the pain that comes along with the awareness of knowing traumas and why the parts were acting like that in the first place and not having anyone understand, or even understand that you are/were trying the best you can back then and now. Yet somehow you still have that blame (shame?). I feel like this is where I'm at now and it feels so devastating. So I guess I understand the need to cling and is what I would have done in the past. I'm trying to see that maybe my parts activated this person's exiled parts where they don't want to feel this neediness in themselves because of their own experiences and need to distance themselves. Most importantly, that it's not about me.

Anyways, I'm glad there are these resources out there. Sometimes it's just so hard to discern what's going on when this stuff swells up inside us.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 24, 2023, 06:34:39 PM
Dolly

I feel so much empathy here. As I read your posts I feel a sense of chaos within myself. You're absolutely right that relationships are a minefield for C-PTSD survivors. And you're absolutely right that C-PTSD is complicating your place in this relationship. It takes magic for us Fawns to even know what we want. It takes more magic for us to get what we want, and then it takes even more magic to hold onto it.

We were raised in the shadow of narcissists who belittled every aspiration we ever verbalized. Narcissists humiliated us from their own narcissistic grandiosity when we failed at something and then humiliated us out of their narcissistic jealousy when we succeeded at something, or obtained something we wanted.

We were raised in a no-win scenario. Punished if we lose and punished if we win. No wonder so many of us don't know what we want.

Relationships are a minefield for everyone, but those of us with disordered pasts, struggle more with our internal battles.

---

Quote from: dollyvee on February 20, 2023, 10:58:43 AM
I feel like so many people would label me as jealous and that's that, and I think especially because it's quite passive aggressive so they can act innocent and sweet. Then, I'm triggered with all this stuff and I guess can't detach (the inner threat of aggression etc) so I guess I react in some way, or try to big myself up around it which only makes me look guilty. So, not only do I feel like I have to deal with this person's energy but "fight off" other peoples' perceptions of what is going on, and again, feeling like I'm on my own doing it. It's a pickle but I do think you're right that learning about trauma has helped me see this in a different way, with more perspective and less reactivity than before, and thank you for seeing that.

I'm no stranger to the sentiment that drove you to write that quote. These types of "surround and conquer" narc attacks drive me into chaotic tornados of thought, and fear, and disgust, and defeat. They spin my brain like in a blender until I can't think straight anymore. Narcissists have turned the world against me more than a few times. Today, I'm driven mad when one person starts passive-aggressive attacks that only I can see, and then the flying monkeys rise up and believe the lies. People start taking the villain's side and the next thing I know I'm the pathetic "Erkle" star of the whole comedy show.

THIS PARAGRAPH IS MY OWN NONPROFESSIONAL OPPINION: Whenever this happens to any of us, we look guilty if we don't stand up for ourselves and look even guiltier if we do. That's where the C-PTSD EFs really come to life for me. People who don't suffer C-PTSD are victims of the same crimes, but those people aren't triggered into chaos. They're triggered into fight mode, and they continue to fight until they get what they want. Our disadvantage is that we have to come to terms with our own fight mode. Our former elders worked hard to confuse us into believing we didn't have the right to fight. Now today, we still don't know when it's appropriate to fight or to surrender.

But we do have the right to fight. We just have to make sure we're ready and well supported before we go into battle for what we want. We have the same rights to claim what's ours as anyone else has. We just were given some bad training early on.

Our parts love us, but they live in the past and only know how to protect us from danger that's been gone for decades. But I love my parts. They mean me no harm. They rally to help the instant I'm triggered. They bring back the fears that we lived through decades ago. And this is where I am more and more forced to rely on my courage, which is not the absence of fear but the ability to act through the fear.

I sincerely hope you are able to find the truth in this new relationship and are able to find your balance; when to fight and when to let the fight go on without you.

I'm sending all the positive thoughts I can your way in hopes that the confusion leaves you. I hope for you to be able to relax and see what's really happening, and that you can rise above the petty wars that this other woman is trying to instigate.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 25, 2023, 08:09:22 PM
Thank you for the positive thoughts Papa Coco - There's a lot in what you said and I appreciate you sharing. I had a dream last night where I was in a space ship and this girl was trying to break inside. I was using the force field to try to stop her but it wasn't really working. Three troopers/soliders came up behind her and she killed them. Today I feel like the idea of this person is affecting my feelings about myself and I would like to distance myself from the whole thing. That she is breaching the ship I guess, and "winning." I saw this guy today and was cordial but also thought it's time to move on. I guess I feel like I'm being treated like an option, though there hasn't been good communication on my end. I don't know if it's the FA part of me, but I'm over it. It makes me sad and I'm trying not to think of it as a failure, but I can't do it - deal with women like this and feel like there might be some rejection.

I learned a lot and think I was looking for a protector in this guy, someone to save me from the crazy women. Sort of the way my dad saved me from the crazy behaviour of my mom. I've been trying to talk to my parts and let them know that I'm there for them to protect them, but I really relate to that inner chaos. I've been thinking about it and it reminds me of being young before my mom and dad divorced when I was two. I don't have any memories of that time and when I think of it, it's like the dark chaos. I think my mom cited my dad cheating on her as the reason for the divorce but I can imagine there was a lot of fighting and my m being my m, she might have latched onto that idea. It was a common theme in the family and my gm accused my gf of wanting to leave her for someone younger, and my gf accusing my gm of cheating as well. Lots of mistrust really, all around.

I think it makes a lot of sense about ceding that they talked about in the podcast I posted the other day. It's also almost as if it's ingrained and I expect that, or am used to thing playing out that way that it's not even a narcissist just regular power struggle (?) but inside it's like life or death, and I need to get people on my side because I know what's coming (not that I do that though). I don't know if I'm a fawn type, but more freeze, and it's like something switches in me to give over power when this stuff comes up. So, maybe I'm switching off and giving that girl power, or what she wants because I knew the consequences if I fought. Maybe that is a triggered response but I do the overwhelm at the thought of fighting. It just feels like too much. Maybe t and I can work on this with some EMDR. I am thankful for this experience though for what it was because I really think it helped me learn a lot about myself and sometimes people just aren't for each other.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 25, 2023, 11:09:59 PM
Dolly,

That was a pretty powerful dream. Like your brain is really processing this situation.

As one of your Forum friends I'll support any decision you make about whether to pursue this guy or not. I understand the value of surrendering something before it drags me through the mud. I also understand the value of fighting for what we want. Both are good choices. It's up to you how you feel about taking this one on. Will it drain you, or empower you? Only you know the answer to that question.  Having learned stuff about yourself through this is great. I often feel the gratitude for what I learned during unsavory times in life. I don't like the unsavory times, but the self-awareness and learning are always a good outcome.

My thoughts are on your side. I hope for happiness, no matter which direction you go with this guy.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 26, 2023, 06:36:49 PM
Thank you PC for your comments  :grouphug:

It has brought up a lot of issues around my m and how I'm perceiving her actions in other people. I think maybe I'm learning that these are real things for me and maybe one of my needs is that someone has to be sensitive about this and I need to feel like they understand that. Although, this is my "stuff" and I do need to take care of it, but I don't know what the line is between taking care of that myself and expecting the other person to do it. What are needs? I've never been allowed to have any. I guess I'm thinking support during situations like this, but it's hard to explain the complexity to people like the situation below, where it just comes off as passive aggressive or that I'm being the problem. Or at least that's what's going on in my head, being worried about upsetting people by setting boundaries I guess. I think the step yesterday was maybe a boundary setting step and addressing those needs.

I guess I need to be the protector for myself against women like this (or people) but it feels so hard because it's like I just freeze up, or a part of me freezes up and then cedes power, or then starts to fawn/be overly nice (to someone that is treating me badly, or that I need to be weary of).

I had another dream a week or two weeks ago where this guy came and kissed me after I waited in line for a bit, and it was great. Not in an overly sexual way but with the feeling where you touch someone and it's just warm. The other part of the dream I was watching my suitcase roll down a hill but it was making all these 90 degree turns and going this strange route like it was possessed before it fell of a cliff. So, I guess I'm caught between something really nice and my "possessed baggage" that's maybe threatening to ruin that situation, but I am trying to follow my intuition. It just seems so conflicted.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 27, 2023, 11:09:16 AM
Going through Are You The One You've Been Waiting For and some things are sticking out. Maybe worth mentioning here:

"Some clients, when they finally make contact with an exile, see an image of a child who is shriveled, zombie-like, staring into space, and unresponsive to their presence. These parts have been so devastated by losing the love of a caretaker that they give up on ever getting any love again. The loss may have come from neglect, rejection, or abandonment by a parent, or from a sudden death or other situational loss. Those events, especially if they are repeated, leave a child not only with the assumption that love will never last, but also with a conviction that the pain of losing it is so horrible that it is better to never open to it again. Such fatalism will keep you from risking true intimacy with anyone or, if you do take the risk of finding a partner, from ever really opening your heart to her."

I had an IFS a while ago where I needed to protect myself from my mother and there was a me part there that was blanked out. I never knew how to be safe from that mom part, if it would come back and haven't contacted that exile. It's interesting how much it relates to the feelings that have been coming up with the situation with this guy. I think it's probably scary for me to deal with that mom part because it feels outside myself, like I have no control over it, and I'm scared that me locking it up won't work.

He also goes into discuss attachment theory and exiles, and how our attachment style is usually mirrored in our exiles:

"The final group, those showing disorganized attachment, often were victims of abuse or of highly neglectful and unpredictable parenting. Those infants did strange things during the exercise, such as moving in circles, rocking back and forth, and entering a sort of frozen trance...I have noticed that clients' images of exiles fit the same categories that attachment theorists use with children...Still other exiles appear to be frozen, half-dead, devoid of any life force, or in a kind of frenzy when the client first sees them, similar to Ainsworth's disorganized infants."

It's interesting too, that sometimes I feel like I almost have internal OCD-like behaviours/thought patterns, but would never identify it as OCD.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on February 27, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
 :wave:   i hope you have a nice day today
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 27, 2023, 06:45:39 PM
HI Dolly

Thank you for sharing all this. I am glad we have this forum where we trust each other enough to share such struggles.

I struggle with a bit of seeing IFS parts as you described; little girls or boys staring blankly as the world refuses to give them the love, self-esteem and care that they deserve. I can tie some of it back to my own childhood of being left out of everything at school and at home, and not being told why everyone else can have experiences but I can't. But I also beleive that it's just the compassion I was born with that makes me feel especially distraught at images of children being left out, not knowing why. The the image of the spaced out eyes of a neglected child torments me the most in my life. It breaks my heart more than any other image I know of. If I were an actor who was told to produce tears on demand, that would be the image I'd call up to make myself cry for the camera.

I also resonated with your comment about OCD. I don't have OCD either, but I do have OCD-like behaviors around making sure all my pantry item labels are facing forward, my toilet paper always rolls over the top, all three-way light switches are facing down if the lights are off, when I return my shopping cart I organize the shopping cart return so all the carts are lined-up and inter-connected as designed...silly little things like that. I attribute it to having grown up with no control over my own life. I was told what to wear, what haircut I would be forced to sit still for, what friends I was allowed to play with and for how long, what school I would be thrown into, what  after school activities I would not be allowed to participate in (Easy answer: ALL after school activities were banned for me), so in some small ways I try today to organize and control my personal space. For me, my OCD behaviors are about me looking to have some control over something small in my life. Arranging my soup cans gives me a chance to put my ducks in a row without offending anyone. For me it's a learned behavior, not an illness.

I meditate on / or pray for (whichever term means the most) you often. I know that relationships are a minefield for everyone, but especially for those of us who were those children with the spaced-out gazes as we watched our peers receive more respect than we were allowed to receive, and for no good reason.

I am thankful that you are allowing me to follow your story. I can't explain it better than this, but in my face-to-face relationships I truly care about my friends. I'm finding this to be true with my on-line friendships also. I find myself caring more than I thought I would about my peers on this forum. So, when I say I'm hoping for a positive outcome with this situation you're in, they aren't just words.

This hug carries some true energy in it. I hope it helps a bit.

:bighug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 01, 2023, 10:10:37 AM
Huh, I had a bit written here yesterday and it's disappeared.

Thank you PC - it's kind of hard to share this stuff. I'm realizing on an intellectual level it's one thing to understand it but I feel like I've been dredging up stuff covered in emotions that I'm having to feel, like random objects from the bottom of a river covered in mud. I think perhaps it's similar that seeing this me version is difficult even though I didn't feel it at the time. I also have similar feelings towards kids who I know there is something going on. (And people too when they're hurt which gets me into trouble). I think maybe I was protecting myself from that because by blank, I didn't actually have a face but a TV screen with static. I remember being told at a young age not to sit too close to the TV screen, so maybe it's something from around this time, but I also took it as there was "nothing on."

My OCD is like I need to say things in the right way or being hyper focused on my movements, what I'm doing or how I'm perceived. I noticed lately that I've started saying things out loud when I've thought of something "cringe" (probably shameful) that I've done, like liking someone's story on Instagram that I don't know very well, or because I liked a couple of their stories and "put myself out there." It's almost like a reaction to ward off the criticism/bullying that happened. I'm sorry you had to go through that at school as well. One of the things I really like in the Schwartz book is that he gives space for how traumatizing and retraumatizing peer groups can be. I've always thought we go through one thing and then it's just confirmed by other kids at school for example, which doesn't mean that it was ever right.

Thank you PC I feel the energy in that hug and I believe our interactions have been a positive and helpful light in my healing too. I think it's great to have reciprocity and be able to share these things as well  :hug:

______

Realizing too just how difficult it is for me to hold space around interactions with that woman/ women like that (and then I will just generalize and keep a distance from all thinking this is what it's going to be like). My mini saga: I saw her at the gym yesterday and I feel like she was "worried" about me in the way that who am I texting on my phone etc. I was trying to put up boundaries (energetically I guess) and just say no, you can't interfere. Although, it does feel like something in the back of my mind isn't strong enough. I'm sharing this because I feel like it's too much for people, or it gets minimized when I do talk about it, that I'm over analyzing it etc, but emotionally this stuff feels so potent around relationships and I'm just beginning to process why. It's also hard to explain your intuition to people and yes, I've definitely thought things or took things personally when it wasn't (which t has helped a lot with). I guess I'm still working out what my intuition is telling me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on March 04, 2023, 12:12:21 PM
Dolly,

I can relate to something you said about your OCD, about how you say things out loud now.

That's happening to me in some ways too. I spent my life keeping more secrets than speaking the truth. I was so sure I was an outcast that I just chose to keep my mouth shut. I was always scolded for having my own opinion, so I just learned to hide it. I didn't feel I had the right to speak. But as I heal, I become much more vocal. In fact, I also tend to laugh out loud when people act like jerks around me. I can't stop it. I worry I'll get myself into trouble someday by laughing at, or commenting on, someone who has a violent streak in them. People really are getting meaner in the US now. I'm picking a bad time to lose my filter. I talk about this with my therapist, and he just laughs and welcomes me to the world of healing. The more confident I feel that I have the right to be on the earth, the less of a filter I have. It's actually healthy. But still...this is a violent world and I really need to be cautious of where I let my words and laughs out.

That's kind of cool what you said about running into the other woman in the gym and noticing that she might be a bit intimidated by you. Did that feel kind of good to you? I would expect it would feel kind of empowering and validating that you can be a threat if you need to be.

:bighug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 16, 2023, 09:37:03 AM
I can't believe it's been over two weeks since I wrote in here. I've been busy with work and processing stuff.

Thank you Papa Coco  :hug: I also laugh at people who are bullies and I feel are trying to be petty or sly. I find that smiling at someone like that is the best way to disarm them. I don't know how to describe this OCD, it's like speaking in a certain voice, maybe more childlike, with apprehension when I have anxiety about something or being in a certain situation. My gf used to tell a story about how I was seperated from them as a child (maybe 2-4) at a sheep fair, and they saw me from a distance wringing my hands, upset, going I don't care, I don't care. My gf used to tell the story almost in a mocking way as a joke, but I can imagine the OCD voice and that little child voice are maybe somewhat similar.

Well, I wish I could see it as intimidating. Unfortunately, it seems like, and maybe this is just my old stuff coming up to an extent, it's escalating her behaviour to something more wrath inducing, and stepping up some sort of "competition" where there is a winner and loser. I felt like this a lot I think with my m, and just increases my level of anxiety because she will stop at nothing to "win" and show me "my place," and others will think that I'm competing or jealous of her because of her looks or whatever, but they don't actually see her behaviour towards me.

I think I'm processing a lot right now about being with my own parts, and the idea of being there for my parts if someone were to abandon me. I read a passage in the book the other day that talked about the lengths people will go to to stop abandonment anxiety, and one of them was developing a symptom so you will keep people near. I thought of my gm and her way of dealing with her health and how her medical "crises" always felt like a way for her to get us to take care of her when she wouldn't take care of herself. I saw this, newly I guess, as abandonment anxiety and how/in what ways that was passed onto me. While at the gym the next day, I saw this guy and that girl who now seem to be dating together, and I spent time with my parts. I didn't really react even though I felt like she was being wrathful to me, but focused on my right to be there and being there for myself. The necklace that I've been wearing of my gm's since her death broke and maybe it was a physical reminder that I am breaking the abandonment anxiety present in my family. I have been feeling less "protected," that I am out in the world now without the protection of my family/people, but maybe this is the time that I need to turn to my parts and let them know that I will protect them and be there for them, which I'm trying to do. I just feel like I'm going through all this stuff/emotions that I had to at that age and maybe it feels scary again, but I'm trying to remind myself that I am an adult now and it is different.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on March 16, 2023, 03:16:30 PM
Dolly,

I can see some healing in your words. A decade ago, before the term C-PTSD was ever coined, and before any therapists knew how to help trauma patients, we would have been trapped by our own EFs, and our own confusion around the various parts in our heads. The tail used to wag the dog.

I had a thought as I read your words; "Unfortunately, it seems like, and maybe this is just my old stuff coming up to an extent, it's escalating her behaviour to something more wrath inducing, and stepping up some sort of "competition" where there is a winner and loser."  When I read those words I heard, in my own head, "Control."  I think we all fight for a sense of control over our own lives. Sarcasm, biting words, even your gm's use of her own health in order to keep family's attention on her, is a move for control. Control is not a bad thing. How we choose to gain and manage that control is a decision we can't make while we're still confused about our pasts and our C-PTSD. But as we learn about our C-PTSD, and our attachment disorders, we begin to rise above being controlled by our own control tricks.

When I first learned the words Narcissist, and Sociopath, I bought some books that helped me to really see what and why they exist. But as I read the books, I not only saw sociopaths all around me, but I saw the behaviors of the Narcissists and Sociopaths in myself.  I was raised in a Catholic family with at least two narcissists above me, my Dad and my elder sister. My mom wasn't a narcissist, but she was like a 13 year old mean girl who knew what she was doing when she used gossip, lies, tricks, spying, etc., to manipulate her family into doing and being what she wanted us to do and be. So I learned how to behave with a lot of her tricks and the tricks of my narcissistic elders.

I say it like this: Just because I shoot hoops in my driveway doesn't make me a professional basketball player. And just because I had been taught how to get what I want by using the tricks of the narcissist, it didn't make me a narcissist. The two best things I learned by studying narcissism and sociopathy are that I can now smell a narcissist from a mile away, and, I now can't allow myself to use any of their tricks to get what I want. Because I'm not a clinical narcissist, it was easy for me to stop using their tricks as soon as I recognized I was doing so.

Maybe your OCD is partly the result of your brain looking for moments to control the room. When I picture a little girl, lost at a sheep fair, wringing her hands and saying "I don't care. I don't care..." I see a little girl who is trying to gain some sense of control of a situation that was scaring her to the core. I use those words less and less often now. When I was more in the grips of my attachment disorder, I would disconnect from fear by saying those exact words: "I don't care". Those words were like a scissor that could cut the cord that was holding me to a painful situation I couldn't find any other way to control. I don't say it as often as I used to, but I still do say it from time to time. When I see the insanity growing on a global scale, I often just turn off the news and say it, "I don't care." I guess it's easier to Flee stressful situations when I tell myself I don't care about the outcome.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 16, 2023, 05:26:08 PM
Papa Coco, I'm not sure what you mean? I'm trying to control the situation or she's trying to control me with her behaviour? One thing I didn't mention is that I don't see her being intimidated but insecure in herself enough to act that way.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on March 16, 2023, 06:51:51 PM
I apologize. I must have misinterpreted what I read.

I'm SO sorry.

I'm completely on your side. I am sorry for misinterpreting your words. Please ignore what I wrote.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 17, 2023, 08:59:50 AM
Hey PC, I thought there might be something else going on  :hug: I missed the question mark from above, which I added now. I didn't understand what you wanted to communicate and thought some clarity might be helpful around it, so I can digest what was said. Hope you're doing better.

***

also, thinking about the above in that I see her as "insecure in herself enough to act that way" and what is implied or feels implied, is that somehow I'm the cause of that, or I'm creating "this," and that's old stuff, BIG old stuff. To my m somehow it was my fault that I "abandoned" her and was her excuse to act out towards me in the way she did. That was me as an 8 year old feeling confident to stand up and say I didn't deserve to be treated like that in that house and move to my dad's. Here I am, trying to let the situation pass and be confident in myself again about my behaviour in the matter and feeling like I'm getting attacked again, and it's coming up again that it's somehow my fault (for what? for existing? For having confidence in myself? How dare I). I was feeling ok with the situation and moving on from it and yesterday I was just hit with emotion (rage for being treated a certain way but it's something else?). I think the above is probably why.

I also feel like it's compounded by the fact that what was ever going on between him and I seemed to accelerate her feelings/actions towards him. Yeah for me for bringing people together *sarcasm*, but again, somehow I'm the cause (problem). And I feel if I react then somehow it's me that's jealous, or the problem again. Maybe this is how I take this stuff on? I don't know.

Thank you too to Kizzie for fixing the certificate  :cheer:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on April 22, 2023, 03:20:23 AM
Dolly,

I'm so sorry you are left feeling those things from your M. One thing I can't deal with from narcissists is how they twist logic to make sure that no matter what's happening, they make themselves out to be the victims while they twist reality to make the actual victims feel like we are the villains. To the degree that they have no conscience, we take up the slack and feel too much conscience.

It happened to you. It happened to me (about a million times) and I see it now happening to people all the time.

Narcissists have a very loose relationship with the truth. They seem to believe that they can control the truth. That whatever they say becomes the truth just because they said it. It's almost a God-Complex. And the part that frustrates me so greatly is that they get away with it far too often.

I'm so sorry it happened to you too.

It's been a month since you wrote this. I hope time has brought you to a better place for now. Either way, I support you in whatever place you are in today.

We CPTSD victims of narcissists seem to go through different things at different times. Some days I can't remember the past. Other days I can't forget it. It's not the same as bi-polar disorder, it's just trauma moving around in our brains lighting up whatever rooms it's in at the time.

:hug: :hug: :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 16, 2023, 06:39:24 AM
Thanks Kizzie for sorting out the log in. I've been having some thoughts the past week and wanted to get them down.

Thank you Papa Coco - that's interesting about being the villan. I had a very vivid dream where I had brought this very bad  demon energy with me in relation to this person. I had to tell myself that I'm not a bad person, that I haven't done anything wrong, but the feeling is so overpowering.

I've been going through some things the past few months. I think sme sort of shift in awareness is happening but I don't think I can analyze it if that makes sense. I had something happen with someone at work where I felt like they saw me, and that is rare for me. Long story short about how I got there/here, but I saw a very young part of me when I reflected on it and came to wonder if the thing that keeps me away from people--this anxiety, I don't really know how to describe it, that sort of bubbles up when people get close-- is a form of dissociation that I didn't even know I had. I think there is a very real part of me that wants a relationship and wants to be close to someone, but when it comes close, it's like a part of my brain clicks off and I didn't even know it did that.

I'm realizing that there are probably preverbal parts active that are stored in the body. It makes sense to me that my mother's inability to relate to me didn't start after birth, it's probably been there all along. I also think there are things active that didn't start with me, but are legacy burdens that have come from before (that part makes me feel verry heavy and tired. I did an IFS on this and I think there's a part that wants to hold onto that. I would like to get to know that part better and show her who I am now. On the other side of the coin, I also feel I have a part/maybe another legacy burden who holds the crriticism I heard from my grandfather/family about all the decisions and choices I have made. So, it is hard to feel some satisfaction/pride/belief in who I am now and my abilities to accomplish/take care of myself. It's helpful to write this down because I'm seeing now that these parts are probably polarized). Where they come from and what they are I don't know.

I've been reading Robert Falconer's The Others Within Us and there's quite a few things that make sense, or feel similar to me. I don't think I had Self from a very young age, maybe in the womb? I feel like my Self was pushed out very young and is why it has been hard to connect to Self energy. I feel like it can also be why energies feel so overwhelming at times, that I really have to steel myself, because there is no Self to keep things out. There is also doubt about what I'm connecting to, which is strange because other times I feel the connection quite strongly. I resonate with Falconer saying that sometimes we attach to UBs because they gave us power at a time in our lives when we were probably powerless and it was essentially a form of survival which can be why they are hard to let go of.

I've also been reading a book on Somatic IFS which is very hard to get through. I keep checking out reading it and there are very active parts that don't like reading it I think that judge everything she is talking about. I don't know if it's shifted something, or if there's other stuff going on, but it feels like my mind has been in limbo lately. I guess there's feelings and fears about my place in the world coming up, but it's also not like I'm reaching out to connect. I'm worried about taking care of myself. I guess it's related in a way to what I wrote above about only seeing the negative side of what I've done, that somehow I could have done things "better," which I hadn't thought about before. It's like I should "know," or have known what would happen etc.

I feel like there's also conflicts coming up with people right now and I'm not sure what to say about that yet. If this is a form of deep self-protection and keeping people "out," which is safe.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on June 16, 2023, 09:08:14 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
You've made quite a few realisations in what you wrote, and it's nice to see you back here again.   :hug:

Can I ask who wrote the book you're reading about Somatic IFS?

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on June 16, 2023, 02:01:33 PM
Hi DollyVee,

I'm glad to see you back.

That makes sense to me that it is a form of dissociation that keeps you safe and apart from people. Some other part getting triggered and coming toward the front to manage the dangerous situation of someone getting closer while the rest of you, or the Self however you call it for yourself, takes a back seat and is not fully aware. That may not be what you mean so I apologize if I've misunderstood. But it does make sense to me, to call it a form of dissociation.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 17, 2023, 09:09:25 AM
Hi Hope - thank you  :hug: the book I'm reading is by Susan McConnell and is just called Somatic IFS. I have it as an audio book as well because I found myself checking out while reading it. Somehow listening helps me process it a bit better.

Thank you Armee - Self is what everyone has in them and is the inherent "knowing" that can be present with compassion, curiosity, courage (the 7 c's). As I understand Self energy can be "pushed out" when it hasn't had a chance to develop at a young age. So, it can be hard to find that frame of reference, and the compassion, curiosity, groundedness, when dealing with other parts.

I think the challenging thing with these realizations is that I wasn't aware that I had a part that dissociates like that. Or, I noticed it on occasion when dating and I could feel myself checking out, but I guess I didn't realize it was that prevalent. So, to me, it means if I have I have a part like that underneath everything, what is going on? I posted an article a while ago about dealing with dissociation and psilocybin that made sense. I took about .5g over Christmas this year and sort of fell asleep, which, according to the article, can be a sign of dissociation at work. It's also such a challenge that I want to work on these things, but a part is holding back and it can be hard to contact that part, or bring it in focus.

I'm also reflecting a bit on what I wrote yesterday to Papa Coco and the dream I had, and feeling like a bad person. I think I carry that feeling around with me, that I'm a bad person, and look to other peoples' reaction as justification of that or validation that I'm not. I had another dream the day before, or a few days before that one. Both left a very strong effect on me. In the other dream, to summarize, I ended up in a corridor, sort of in a Jewish building, filled with offices. I turned around because the numbers were getting larger/smaller to find the right one. The doorways to the offices became like dark tunnels. There was a lit sign in one and a woman came out, turned it off, and said you can't read that. The end of the corridor was now a sort of hospital like room, with patients spaced out as if they were giving blood. I noticed a sign (?) that said incest ward. There was a little girl who seemed out of it there (perhaps dissociated?). I put my bike through a hole in the wall, there was no doorway, and can't remember if I climbed out or that was where the dream ended. (My brain got distracted after writing this and I checked out and had a scroll on my phone).

There's more bits and pieces to the dream, getting angry at my grandfather for not listening to me, trying to avoid this creepy man at a bus stop too. I think these two dreams really stand out. Although, I'm still not entirely sure what they mean. Was there incest? I always had a fascination with WWII history as a child and read a lot about Jews during the war and the holocaust. My family was there at the time and I wonder if there is a part of a legacy burden that is connected with that? I remember my gf saying things like, at the time the Jews did have a lot and a lot of people had nothing. Even if he didn't agree with the holocaust, it was like a complicity. My response as a child was to challenge his ideas about that, that you can't say those things about people, but it also felt like a part was taking it in. I felt like the world was a place where this stuff wasn't true and you could live without believing this or treating people a certain way. I was standing up for what I thought was "right," but that also seemed to create its own challenges. 

I feel like I'm rambling a bit but I also think articulating the "fight" I had against the ideas in my family is quite pertinent, and comes down to maybe a part of me that still feels safe with them and holds onto the idea of family, and the part that tried to separate, and was shut down and not heard. Maybe the memory of what that was like is unfolding. I think there's so much of it, just the repeated sense of saying something, not being heard, and/or fighting against the idea of feeling like a bad person (around people) etc.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on June 19, 2023, 09:02:06 AM
Another thing that is starting to surface is the fact that I could have bought a house, or I could buy a house. I don't know if this is some barometer of a happy family, or stability, but there is something in my mind that never deemed it possible to have that. That it was always somehow about survival or somewhere deep inside a belief that nothing would ever be good enough. I don't know how to describe it, it was like always living with this idea of insecurity and that's what it would always be like. I guess stepping back, I can see that I was replaying/repeating the insecurity and instability I experienced in childhood. I also felt too, that I needed someone to have those things, like I felt like I needed a parent. I guess I thought that security and stability had to come from a partner, but am seeing that it's coming from me.

It doesn't feel like a yeah, go you girl boss (hate that phrase) moment in my mind either, like I'm proud of myself for these things, but rather alienating. I guess that's a clue that some part of me is tying this back to my family. Ie I can suceed, but no one can love me. Or maybe, success comes at the expense of my family. I feel like there is something in me that has rejected moving forward/doing well (whatever that means) because it means that I will eclispse my family. I think probably this is tied to my gm saying something to me like, one day you won't need me any more, and never wanting me to leave/have my own life. I think this is one side of the polarization, that there is a part that doesn't want to let that go. The other side is the critical voice (of my gf/family) that says nothing I do is good enough, or I could have done it better, that I can't survive on my own without them, and maybe shuts down before I make a mistake. Maybe also where this sort of fantasy idea about life lives? I can't commit because there could be this other life/possibility? So, I sort of stay trapped again.

Interesting, that I really feel this behind my right ear where I hold a lot of tension on that side. My right shoulder is slightly raised. I felt it the other day in regards to men who are threatening/aggressive/passive-aggressive that it's like it collects all those tensions/fighting feelings there. Maybe like a freeze?

It's good to put the polarization down here because I feel like it's something that's hard to get my head around. I don't even think it's polarization, but maybe two legacy burdens vs me (living my own life on the other side? I don't even know what is there fully). 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 07, 2023, 10:58:45 AM
I didn't think it was so long since I wrote in here.

Came to a realization this week with t that the dissociation/feeling that is going on is probably positive, and a deeper level of relational (?) stuff coming up. So, I dealt with that guy in the past, but now this is the residue, the body sensations, preverbal feelings etc of misguided (right word?) attachment. Or, what I felt in the past when my attachment needs weren't met, which isn't a predictor of the future, but feels like one haha.

T said something as well - I can't remember the exact quote though she has said it before - that it is better to be a sinner in the world of the devil than to be the only one right. I'm not sure about the last part, but for the first time I was able to feel what it must have been like to feel all that bad stuff about me that I believed growing up. Going back to the dream that I had with that demon thing in it, it was like this is how I feel about myself (around people/doing something "bad" etc). Somewhere in my internal world, I am trying so hard overcome this thing, or not be it?

I've had a couple other negative/"bad" people/things show up in my dreams recently. I think somehow the proximity to people, or showing myself etc has been bringing this out, but I don't know. I feel like I'm taking care of things in my life right now too, but there is also a larger impending sense of doom if there is an obstacle or surprise. I have this surprise anxiety that shows up, or maybe it's been there but I'm just feeling it in a different way right now.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on July 07, 2023, 01:00:04 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I just wanted to say that I read the last couple of entries here in your journal, and think you're really addressing quite a few things, and I also wanted to say it's great that you're able to buy a house, if you choose to do so.  It gives you some choice and also a true sense of independence - at least I think so.

I thought it was interesting that you hold/notice tension in your right ear area - I find I get tension held in my left temple area.  I am left-handed though.  I wonder if that is relevant.  I don't know.

I wanted to send you a hug too  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 09, 2023, 07:50:39 AM
Thank you Hope - it's like I never had the consciousness before that I could create a plan for my life and accomplish things. I always felt at the mercy or needing other people, and very slowly I guess I can come to rely on myself and the things I have built for myself. It can be a fleeting feeling though.

I think the pain in the right side is in my neck, but is also where I carry stress. I've had my shoulder seize up with stress before. I think it is related to some very early form of protection. T wants to do some deep brain reprocessing but I am having concerns after what's been coming up.

So, I wanted to put down how I felt after the session with t. I discussed the podcast on IFS and dissociation with her and the things that stuck out for me. When I mentioned/told her about secret parts, I became emotional and when she asked me what was behind that emotion, I didn't know, it just felt like sadness. My voice also became quiet and was a shift from how I normally talk. After the session I wondered if compliant parts were active because I felt like maybe I was trying to reassure her about how I felt, that I was ok.

She thinks that DBR is helpful because it is pre-parts and deals with the shock in the body from attachment wounding. I can see how this is helpful but I'm also concerned how parts, and now secret parts that I'm not fully sure how they're active yet, will respond to something like that. Especially since it feels like it's something outside of my control.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Denali on July 09, 2023, 04:52:35 PM
:hug: I'm sorry you had to endure so much from the stepfather's issues. Also that no one protected you from the beast.

I can empathize with people knowing what's happening to you, but not putting a stop to it.

I remember getting a lot of you poor thing looks. There were people I thought loved me and claimed they knew I was abused by anti-mom. However, they allowed her to live there and when I came to visit them, I'd be pushed to interact with anti-mom. 

Children are underestimated. There is an idea of when children are young they are oblivious to their environment and going ons.

I agree people feel dangerous. There are times I wish I had a shell to hide in when I have to be around people.

I hope you can enjoy your new flat.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 19, 2023, 10:13:42 AM
Thank you Denali  :hug:  I'm sorry you had to go through that and weren't protected. I feel like those people are still a big trigger for me in trusting people and opening up. The ones who can see what is going on but don't get involved. It brings up a lot of anger in me and find myself admonishing them for their lack of authenticity. It's like deep down, I know I won't be able to trust those people.

I'm sort of floating with a feeling that comes after being "exposed," or like I've shared to much of myself. I don't think I have ??? I've just been a person, trying to relate and empathize with people. It's kind of like a feeling of dread where all the bad things come up that are out of my control, but I don't think it's overtly conscious.

I have been talking with a friend who has recently gone through a break up. We've had a little chat on social media over the years which has been friendly but also maybe underlying flirtatious. He's asked me if Im coming to my hometown to visit and we've been chatting more. I kind of opened up about stuff yesterday and chatted a bit about IFS, he about his ex when I asked him if he had anyone to talk to. Not implying me, but just concerned that he was able to handle stuff right now. I like talking to him, but also know that he's probably not in the best place for anything further. I went to work with the same kind of feeling/intention as I was with friends that I hadn't seen in a couple months. Maybe it was too open. I feel other people take this as a sign of weakness and I am a target for bullies, or people being overly passive-aggressive/competitive with me. I will emotionally try and remove myself from situations like this, but I also want to stand up for myself.

I also think I anticipate this behaviour from people and lack engagement from the beginning. I guess it's my experience that people don't have the same genuineness or will ultimately "be out for themselves." T and I have been talking about healthy narrcissism this week and it's still something that's hard to wrap my head around. I feel like there was also a feeling of deep down, that I can't stand up for myself or react as well, which is maybe why I feel dealing with passive-aggressive behaviour so difficult. Because if you react, then you are the one with the problem, and it takes me back to being a child where I had to remove myself and not react. Having compassion for people like that is difficult and afterwards I do feel angry tho maybe I am taking on their repressed anger. However, I see it as my fault/something wrong with me/my responsibility.

I feel like after this, I'm going through familiar feelings of it's because of me, there's something wrong with me, I've done something wrong, but almost as if it's repressed? Maybe this is that floating feeling.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on July 27, 2023, 06:30:23 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
You mentioned having a feeling that comes after being 'exposed' or like you've shared too much of yourself, and I wondered if that's reduced now - and how you're feeling now about it?  I hope you don't mind my asking you that, but I related to it - as I had once opened up quite unexpectedly with someone about some personal things and felt incredibly exposed.  But thankfully that feeling did dissipate and reduce over time.  I also didn't feel judged by the person with whom I shared things - although I had wondered what might happen.

That 'floating feeling' - it sounds like it's got a lot encapsulated within it.  I found what you wrote in your journal entry to be very interesting, and it brings up thoughts in my mind - although I can't really express them properly.

Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on July 29, 2023, 08:48:40 AM
Thank you Hope  :hug: I had started writing my post and got busy with work and couldn't finish it. I think your comments are very valid for what I was writing. I remember a bit in the John Bradshaw book where he talked about feeling exposed after sharing. What I'm realizing now is I think that is related to sharing my authentic self and how I never learned to do that growing up because it wasn't safe to do so. I feel like I'm starting to understand that feeling as shame, and just be able to name it, that it doesn't mean I'm inherently flawed etc (or that someone else is better - thanks mom for comparing me to other people throughout my life), as she suggested in the video is opening something new. All this stuff is just shame, it doesn't make it true about me. It's a pattern of thinking of how I learned to survive in the world.
_____________________

This video popped up in my youtube feed. I really like her videos and glean a lot from them.

Toxic Shame: What It Is And How To Heal From It
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47iJrbO2ug

This one had a lot to unpack and I think it's a core concept/fundemental understanding to myself and how I think/act. However, the process of picking out and identifying shame is not easy. I think it's developed into my identity and is probably the only understanding I've had of myself from a young age.

She saying for the shame bound person there is a difference in your authentic self vs the self you present to the world because at some stage we learned that who we are/our authentic self, is contaminated. So, there is a relief when you can be on your own and be "yourself," instead of being with other people when you realized you must be other/seek validation etc. I think perhaps this is a large part of the dissociation, or humming, I am feeling right now, tapping into this authentic self vs. my other self, but it still doesn't feel right etc.

When I am around people it is as if there is this fear/anxiety that bubbles up in me. Yes, I can chat, I can be personable, but there is also a feeling of guardedness and a relief when I do leave and am on my own. It's like I don't have to force things anymore, or battle this feeling inside that pushes me away from other people. This feeling I think is what I have been trying to understand in therapy for a long time and I guess I can identify it now as toxic shame.   

At the end of the video, she talks about starting to be able to name shame when it shows up in the body and say, "This is a feeling. This is not an objective representation of reality." It's not telling the truth of who a person is, it's just a feeling state. "This was a way of thinking that allowed me to shut down in a way that was adaptive at the time, but it is no longer needed. I am an adult, not a child and I can feel that shame."

These are some other points that I found useful:
 - When our authentic selves become shame bound, we lose connection with our inner wisdom and ability to trust ourselves. To be shame bound we learned from a young age that our feelings didn't matter

 - need for control and to not allow spontaneous feelings to arise

 - will disconnect from feelings and learn to rely on logic to make decisions in all aspects (with no input from emotions/feelings etc which is our very own inner wisdom), or we become dissociated from our true moment to moment feelings, but in order to live intensely, we become addicted to fantasy (other people are better than me, if I could just get this/be this/do this etc and pick people to become limerant about)

 - in this fantasy world we are safe and no spontaneous feelings will ever arise because we are in control of what happens. We are terrified of spontaneous feelings arising in the body because wee believe feelings are shameful. Ex. you may allow yourself to feel a certain way about someone - hopeful, excited etc but when you are with them, you feel scared, frozen in front of them, and will then go home and feel all of your real feelings when you are alone and are then safe.

 - shame bound people also engage in addictive behaviour because we didn't have a secure base to return to to regulate and need to find something to take comfort in for emotional regulation.

 - find a way to convince yourself that there are others who have gone through this process and can be trusted

There's a lot more and I feel like I'll need to rewatch the video a few times
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 08, 2023, 07:49:11 AM
After watching the video, I went back to the John Bradshaw book and tried to pick up where I left off. It's so difficult to read, and it's like every paragraph completely explains my life so far. I guess it's just the realization that this is it, cutting right to the core.

He talks about how toxic shame is reinforced through perfectionism and school, and how we strrive to attain good grades or are shamed if we fall below that. This was also reinforced in my family, and how people who are shame bound are usually high achievers, but that no accomplishments can take away the shame. Shaming is also done through peer group shaming, being made fun of etc. by elementary and high school children. I can think of several instances this happened growing up and am always on alert to it now I think, even if I'm not really conscious of it.

I brought this up with t this week about toxic shame, and how I learned that I couldn't really talk about things with other people because they wouldn't get it etc. So, I had to put it away and have another persona with people. Not full persona, but I just couldn't be authentic with everything. I felt emotional after the session, but in a good way. That it was good to share this.

I've also started reading Trauma and Dissociation informed IFS by Joanne Twombly, which was only 82p for the kindle edition (!). I like her idea/explanation of safe space imagery and that we can prepare for intrusions. I've done SSI in the past but it was always like it didn't necessarily feel 100% safe, and that I was just going through the motions. so, I'm going to try this and see what happens.

One thing that stood out especially in the book was to make sure that we're not operating from a parentified child part. I feel like it makes so much sense why I get overwhelmed doing things sometimes because I'm not doing them from adult me, I'm doing them from the me who always had to take care of everything/everyone and make sure they were all ok (as a child!). I think this state of not doing things is also a form of functional freeze response, but perhaps that could also be coming from a parentified child part.

Spaced out writing this a bit. The shame stuff is so difficult to talk about face I think because it brings up all those emotions. I would like to touch base with those parts but has been difficult to go inward and do that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 12, 2023, 08:23:30 AM
I think I learned quite a bit from the Joanne Twombly book. She explains that DID, OSDD, and CPTSD all have varying levels of dissociation, which is something I never knew, that there is an inherent level of dissociation involved in CPTSD.

When going through the different kinds of safe spaces I noticed perhaps different parts coming up for different spaces, and it also validated some of the things I had done automatically/intuitively in previous IFS sessions. It also made me understand some of my parts better, the ones that I perhaps didn't know what to do with, or how to interact with. She explains that parts can grow and change the more we get to know them. So, what might start off as something inanimate can develop over time into something animate. It also made me realize that parts can be stuck in time and that I probably have quite a few parts stuck in the past. What's important, or maybe this is where the dissociation comes in, is that I can interact with these parts and bring them into the present. I'm thinking of the part that doesn't necessarily know or believe I'm an adult and can handle adult things.

I'm also realizing that I like what she says about medication. I think there is a part that feels once I take medication, it is bad or means that there is something wrong with me, not that this is a trial and it doesn't mean that I have to take this for life. That medication can me a very useful tool to manage strong emotions at times and gives a bit of a break to understand what is going on. I have taken ativan in the past and found relief. I wonder too, if microdosing is doing the same now. I guess it's giving myself/parts permission. Perhaps this hesitancy came from seeing my dad on prozac and hearing from his t that that could be a factor in why he committed suicide, or potentially if it's just that there's something "wrong," and it's affects on the reality I needed to believe in.

I guess overall it's given me a better understanding, or belief, on how to give my parts what they need. Part of me also wonders if I'm blended with my high achiever part/getting things done part when writing this out
_________________________________________

I felt I came to an impasse with the person I was talking to. Even though they initiated it, I noticed I was the one to ask questions about their life and how they were doing. I waited and that same level of interest wasn't reciprocated. We had a big chat and they talked about some of their stuff and I mentioned I didn't want physical intimacy right away, but wanted to get to know someone. I didn't hear from them for over two weeks after that, and when I did, they didn't ask anything about me. So, I'm happy that I'm noticing the signs of emotional unavailability, but the feelings of when you actually walk away (I guess it's the disappointment) aren't that great. I guess it brings me back to growing up and when I did have needs, they weren't addressed or dismissed. I think it takes me back to that toxic shame place and that I'm not worth it etc etc. I think it also puts me in a rut about reaching out again, but I'm trying to work on that.

I met someone else on a dating app that I don't know I just get good vibes from and I think would be a good match, but would be a sort of long distance situation. We had a good chat but when I brought this up and that I would be into making it work, they said we could meet up but also stopped responding. When I think about meeting people around where I am there's no one on the apps I fancy and such a general vibe of misogyny at the gym that just puts me off. Again, I think a familiar damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I did make a new gym friend but worry that I'm emotionally distancing because I'm hypervigilant at the gym (said misogyny - I guess that's one of my triggers)

I also wonder if I perhaps have parts that are used to be being the scapegoat and taking everything on as if it's my fault? I wonder if this is what's showing up at the gym, that people want to blame me for what's going on even though I feel like I'm just there to work out. Maybe there's a part that feels it has to engage and take this on? I also tried putting those parts in a safe space, so that they didn't have to take anything on and I think I felt even more affected by peoples' passive aggressiveness. It's like disengage and feel overpowered by peoples' behaviour, or stand up for myself and feel like it's all my fault/that I'm going to be blamed/be the scapegoat. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And of course, I don't want my new gym friend seeing any of this internal struggle.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on August 12, 2023, 12:14:46 PM
A long distance situation sounds like it could work well from your point of view since you don't want physical intimacy right away. And even if it can't develop much due to distance it does at least give you exposure to a possibly good relationship/trust etc. Of course that very much depends on the other person, too, and what their objectives are. Of course it is extra hard when we have to deal with issues like toxic shame because the other party will likely have no experience. So if they decide they are not all that keen on developing the relationship they could display mildly dismissive behaviour which would do no more than irk most people at worst, but which actually triggers deep hurt in us.

I am really sorry to read that you have issues at the gym. I know a lot of people find this and it always makes me sad for them. The gym is my happy and safe place and I am very fortunate never to have felt unsafe in all the gyms I have visited, except for once when a bipolar member became violent (not towards me but he was big and jacked and scary). I hope you can find a way to work through this. I'm glad you have made a new gym friend. If you need to emotionally distance a bit while at the gym they will probably not think anything of it other than you are working hard. And maybe in time you will be able to get closer.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 13, 2023, 09:59:55 AM
Thanks NK - I would very much like exposure to a good relationship to build trust. I'm wondering how limerant I am about this person and the idea of what they can bring into my life to a certain degree. I agree that peoples' mildy dissmissive behaviour does send us into a tailspin and have learned a lot about myself through peoples' behaviour in online dating. It took a long time to begin to think, it says more about them behaving that way and it's not about the person I am, my value etc. I don't think I'm 100% of the way there consciously, but am working on it.


I talked about this with t, the feeling of standing up, speaking out, and being the scapegoat vs.keeping it all in and being overpowered is a polarization and familiar pattern from growing up. I feel like if I be who I am and take up space in the gym, I will be "punished" for being who I am. I guess punishment comes in the form of ridicule, humiliation, undermining etc (and to a certain degree I feel it as competitiveness/jealousy which is how FOO behaved and I think makes me feel powerless). I think this is also familiar from growing up. I think I'm constantly hypervigilant and scanning people for their reactions/emotions etc. and ready to take them on, seeing if it was somehow me that was the problem.  I was going to write that I lift weight and am maybe an easy target because "normal" women don't do those things, but I think that's another pattern of "old thinking" from growing up. Why do I have to be different etc. Essentially, it's me, I'm the problem.

In the Trauma and Dissociation book, she talks about a client who was taking on everyone's feelings and emotions and that they developed/used a bubble with a valve so that he could let the emotions in when needed and then close the valve again. I think I'm used to living life with the valve wide open all the time, or wanting to shut everything/one off (I think because it will be my fault etc). I gave some thought this morning to why being around people make me anxious (that potentially there will be "violence" - poss the humiliation/ridicule etc I perceive from other people - and I will need protection - which I never had growing up), and I remembered that my m had violence in her life at an early age. My gm's story of leaving my biological gf was because he hurt (beat?) my m and she wouldn't allow it. I think gm potentially had the same, or a very strict, corporal punishment type of upbringing. I had the same with the wooden spoon and was often threatened with it/had it used on me. She had someone very aggressive in her life, could snap and be that way herself, and I guess I am expecting the same on some level from others.

I also find that I was made fun of (humiliated?) for having this anxiety, and/or people thought it amusing to antagonize me with it (passive-aggressiveness). I guess I can see why I am wanting to shut everything/one out, try to numb and not show any emotion etc. And on the other hand I just want to go to the gym and work out hahaha. My sf was also one of those 80s muscle meat heads, so I think that throws something into the mix as well for the gym being a triggering place.

A man came up to me in the gym yesterday and asked about something I was doing. I think he saw me helping out my gym friend and maybe felt comfortable to approach. So, I take 5 mins and tried to show him how to learn/process what he was doing), and introduced myself. It was a friendly interaction and I felt some reciprocity and genuineness. I think there is also something in me which is on guard for other people trying to undermine that, or potentially, how could I be so nice and trusting? (Maybe my FA attachment), or that I will have to prove what kind of person I am  (that I haven't done anything wrong).

It seems exhausting reading this back, but on some level I think it's an accurate description of what's going on. No wonder I want to dissociate.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on August 13, 2023, 12:41:39 PM
I do weightlifting too. And boxing. I do remember feeling out of place in the gym when I started, but I hired a coach. Partly so I could learn how to do things safely but also so that I could feel more confident in the "boys" area of the gym. If anyone challenged me I could just say to them "this is how my coach has told me to do it". Nobody ever did challenge me, or even offer unsolicited advice. I am quite lucky in that I am tall, so my height and weight is equivalent to most average men. This makes me feel more confident, in that women are not going to bother me and men are not going to see me as a small, weak target. Also I feel safer now that I have developed my physical strength and know that I could hit someone pretty hard if I need to. It is kind of sad that these are considerations in the back of my mind, but I think they partly contribute to my feeling that the gym is my happy place. I feel safe there (and in most other places now) because I know I can physically defend myself. I am also lucky in that my parents despise physical fitness. They were not muscle meat heads (unlike your SF) and there is literally NO danger of EVER finding my parents in a gym. I can see from what you say why you might find aspects of the gym triggering.

The interaction you had with that man sounds positive, though. And it is good that you have your gym friend because over time that might make you feel more comfortable in the gym generally. I do hope so. I also wonder whether any glances in your direction at the gym are actually nothing to do with misogyny or criticism at all. I have contact with a lot of serious-minded fitness people both in real life and online and there is literally not a jot of misogyny to be found among them. It could be that the people in your gym are simply admiring you for showing up and doing your thing in an area that does still typically attract more men than women. Whatever the reality in your gym, I admire you for going to the gym and doing your thing.  :cheer:  Keep doing it!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 14, 2023, 07:49:24 AM
Thanks NK  :hug: like you, the gym/exercise is my happy place and it's been so helpful to me over the years to connect to my body. I get what you're saying and other gyms I've been to haven't been like this where maybe people are quite serious about training. But I don't think that's any excuse either as I've been to gyms like this as well and it's not the same attitude. T said I should find a new gym but I like it for the sauna, which I think is helping me. I've heard young guys on several occasions talk about girls they would (four letter word) and how so and so will have to do etc, and had guys pacing back and forth behind me when I'm lifting etc. I guess it's more of a teen population/old people/dads who "lift." Though again, I've been to gyms with those populations too and it was fine. I had a chat with a woman who was younger and probably more "visibly" gay, and she said there was a group of girls laughing at her. I told her that not all people are like that here. It makes me sad that I've never seen her back at the gym. I've also heard one old man talking to another about me and how "theres's just some people you don't like." I think because I don't stop and chat. However, old men (or probably men in general) feeling like they are entitled to my attention is a trigger for me. Who knows, most of the time I am in my own world concentrating anyway and people could misinterpret that as being unfriendly/stand-offish.

I think there are supportive people there but it's also very much my pattern to push people like that away because I'm stuck in toxic shame/feeling like I've done something wrong. I guess I'm trying to work on that.

________________________________

I was going back through old journals yesterday to get a better idea of my parts and to revisit some IFS sessions, and I am very surprised at how much they echoed what was in the Trauma and Dissociation book. I talked about feeling like there were layers of parts underneath an inner critic part, and how there was a part that doesn't want to know about parts because I think there's something defective/wrong with me. Although, I guess the latter is slightly different to not wanting to talk about parts because other people aren't supposed to know about them. I also made a note about other, hidden parts that don't want to come out yet. 

It was helpful to reread my experiences with Self because it also echoes what was in the book, and that I have a hard time connecting to it. It shows up as a dark cloud, something frozen, which could mean that being in Self was seen as dangerous. There were also preverbal parts I think coming up in the sense of somatic sensations, which I don't think I realized were preverbal parts.

Snowdrop made a comment about dissociated parts at the time that I don't think sunk in. I saw a part that would "dissociate," like all of a sudden I would space out, or get distracted, and think ah, this is dissociation and asked her to step out. But "dissociated" (I don't know how to describe it) where you're not aware that maybe parts of you are dissociated, that parts aren't aware of each other, was something I didn't grasp. I also wrote about how I was afraid of unleashing something and this aligns with what Snowdrop/Joanne Twombly wrote about how dissociated parts carrying extreme burdens.

I guess I'm thankful for my "figuring out" part trying to get to the bottom of all this and that I wasn't doing anything wrong, that I can trust myself and my experiences even if I don't fully understand them at the time. I think growing up I always had to "know" because then I wouldn't be surprised/caught off guard. I think this is what Heidi Priebe explains in the video where in the fantasy world, there are no surprises so you can have control. I guess this is part of the process of unpacking what it means to be a "shame-bound" person, that I can trust my inner experiences and wisdom. It was such a mind meld (not the word I want to use) to have my gm tell me that her way was the right way and I didn't know anything about how the world worked when I grew up trusting her to protect me after dealing with my m. Of course I wanted to trust and believe her, and believe in that attachment we had, which I needed so much. I think perhaps in here somewhere is the self-like part Owl was referring to.


I guess enough for now,  think I need, feel it would be best to just reassure my system and parts that I'm there for them.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 14, 2023, 08:02:03 AM
While I was going through my notebooks yesterday, I wrote the following but didn't post it. I guess I was trying to fit together the pieces of what I had wrote about my hesitancy around people at the gym (don't want to say fright, but maybe it was freeze) and the reading I am doing on dissociation. I'm going to put it in here too because I think it's a piece in figuring out what I just wrote about trusting myself and my experiences.

I don't know, I don't have any answers or if this makes sense to anyone. I guess it's just a step in figuring out (thanks figuring out part) my hypervigilance and not being able to step back from people.

______________________________

Sthing else I forgot from the Trauma and Dissociation book was that dissociative disorders can be described as fright without solution.

When t an I did some safe space imagery many years ago, I chose a forest at night. I feel like this might not have made sense to t, or there were intrusions, and we went back and found another one (I think I remember her saying it doesn't sound very comfortable or something like that. Looking back on it now, I think there were very specific reasons for me choosing it. I've been feeling a lot of resistance to t's suggestions too and will shut them down, then think I must be bad for doing that. Well, not bad but wrong? Perhaps on some level that she knows better? I don't know. However, maybe I can see why I'm resenting them a bit because I did inherently know what I felt safe with). I can see now that a forest at night is a very good place to hide or be invisible if you need. When I elaborated on the safe space now, being in a blind came to mind, which is basically being even more hidden. I think I'm learning to trust my internal process a bit more.

It's coming up how i couldn't tell adults (my gm) about my internal process or have it be shaped into something else, and I'm starting to see/wonder, if this is rehappening with t.

I'm also going back through my old notebook and noticing a podcast I listened to with Mary Shutan where she talks about protection. This is definitely one of the themes I noticed in my life, looking to other people for a sort of protection, even if I don't realize I'm doing it anymore. I don't think I had that protection growing up from my m (nor did she), and a very kind of maladaptive protection from my gm and gf where I thought I was protected, but it was more about them. To an extent, I think my dad provided this, but I also get that he was distant sometimes. How do you learn to protect yourself as a child from the people who are abusing you?

She says that we have to protect our energy so that we can be who we are and do what we are meant to do (who are you, what are your gifts, who are your allies etc). So, I guess it's kind of a catch-22 try to put yourself out there and be who you're meant to be, but also protect yourself, which you never learned how to do. I guess on some level I did protect myself (through dissociation?)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on August 14, 2023, 11:16:00 AM
I don't think you are bad or wrong for disagreeing with your T. I doubt your T thinks so either. Her comment about a forest not sounding very comfortable may have been meant to prompt you to discuss your choice of safe place a bit more. It is certainly unusual and may thus reveal helpful information. It is good that you are learning to trust your internal process a bit more, because the next step might be to feel better about discussing it more with T rather than reverting to assumptions that you are bad and wrong. Because you are not. And I can completely see what aspects of a forest in the night might feel safe to you.

As a child you did protect yourself in the only ways available to you. The problem for adult you is that the protective mechanisms are still in place but they are now protecting against dangers that are not there. Elements of danger are present in everyone's life but you are an adult now and effective ways of protection for an adult are very different from those needed by an abused child. Also, I think we had to construct guaranteed protection for ourselves because we knew nobody would do it for us or help us to see what was appropriate and understand the level of danger. So where other people learn that they need goggles if they dive to the bottom of the swimming pool, and an oxygen tank plus training if they dive deep in the sea, we are all climbing into our submarines at the very sight of a puddle.

It seems to me that you are doing excellent work in unravelling all this and going back over your old notes. Of course it is slow and painful but it's good that you kept all those notes.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on August 14, 2023, 02:40:02 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
There is so much within what you've written that I find interesting and helpful.  I am also keen to buy the book by John Bradshaw 'Healing the Shame that Binds You' as I've been meaning to read it for some time.  I just checked my book shelves to check I don't have it already - I have one called 'Family Secrets' but not the other one.  I will hope to buy it.   I think it would be helpful and wanted to thank you for talking about your experiences with the book.

I think it's great that you're utilizing your old notes in that way.  I echo what NarcKiddo said about how it's good that you kept all those notes.

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 15, 2023, 08:22:38 AM
Thanks NK and for reading through this - I think the feeling bad is because whenever she brings something up, sometimes there's such a reaction to it. I can see that perhaps the feeling "bad" is because I also wasn't allowed to have my own inner world/person, as well as having "negative" reactions to things. I wasn't allowed to be angry, I as told (in a nice, loving covert way) to let those things go, that I can't be angry etc. T and I have discussed things in the past and at times it's been a big turning point in knowing that she didn't feel as I assumed. I think this is something I will bring up with her.

Thanks Hope and thank you for reading through everything too - it is a very good book, but also difficult to process everything I think. I really recommend the Trauma and Dissociation informed IFS by Joanne Twombly as well. She has many good approaches to working with parts and lays it out really well how parts come up in CPTSD. You might like the deep, dreamless sleep exercise.

After reading the Daily Morning Homework exercise in the trauma and dissociation IFS book, I tried it with my parts and let them know what we were going to be doing yesterday. I think it went well. I was able to clean and not procrastinate, send emails etc and go to the gym and not feel overwhelmed. Today is a bit different. I feel like I have problems keeping a schedule sometimes, or get anxious easily when unexpected things come up. I can and usually do handle them, but it feels like a bit of "brain chaos" for a bit. I think these are parts that are coming up and I'm trying to listen to them, but it's been difficult. I guess I'm worried that if I listen to the parts that have resistance, they're going to mess me up and all the things I need to do (for survival? for success? but whose ideas/agenda is that?). A lot of my life was you have to go to school and get good grades and that's it. Just a constant push to go where? Do what? Anyways, bit of a tangent.

I'm thinking about protection as well and I brought this up with t last session and she said it's a very early need. I'm thinking how it played out in my family that my gm left my biological gf to "protect" my m from his abuse, that my m blamed my gm for not "protecting" her from a neighbour (?)/someone who molested her (I don't know all the details). How I worried if I was able to "protect" (take care of) the little girl I saw come up after asking my system about someone I was romantically interested in; how I'm hyperviglilant around people and feeling like I don't have protection/need protection.

JT describes it in the book using right/left brain imagery tho she describes it's not 100% physiologically accurate. Our thoughts will come up in the primitive brain first before we can even begin to regulate them in the logical left brain. I think when it's happening to a baby perhaps it's even more ingrained in the primitive/right brain, and that need runs very deep in how we react to things.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 20, 2023, 09:28:35 AM
Joanne Twombly talks about Multiple Reality Disorder where parts can be stuck in different times and need to be reoriented to the present.

"Clients with dissociative disorders and complex PTSD may have parts who are not able to learn coping skills, be witnessed and/or unburdened, until they are retrieved/oriented to the present. Parts "living" in their childhood, experiencing the felt sense of being abused and neglected every day, may not believe it's safe to communicate or work on anything until they have been oriented to the present.

Old messages including threats about what will happen if they tell and lies communicating that safety can only be found by following family rules, can be remarkably tenacious. In addition, adult parts of the system may not want exiles in the present because of fear (or the reality) that they may be too disruptive."

After reading about bringing parts into the present and going inside to try and talk to my own parts about this, I passed out for about 30-45mins. I think it was an experience of strong disassociation. Still feel a bit off with this one. I think it could be a bit of both, that I have parts that are still stuck in the past as well as adult parts that worry what will happen (and if control will be lost) if I bring those parts into the present.

I talked with t about the feeling where I am talking about my experience of something and she makes a suggestion of what it might be, or that maybe "that feeling of not good enough is under everything," reminds me of my gm turning what I would say (about my experience) into something else. I guess it denies my experience/right to exist, which I think feels deeply threatening. She listened and I felt as if a part was very nervous speaking about this as if something bad would happen, or I would be abandoned etc. It also just made me very nervous to speak about those things. I don't know if parts fully took it in, or saw, that I was in the present.

I do experience parts as being in the past and it comes up as these things are "removed" from each other. I don't know if it was a "dream," if I could hear parts because I was half asleep and more relaxed, or was prompted by what Hope wrote in her journal, but the other night I "heard" should we show her what happened? And it made me pretty anxious.

I also learned that basically, we don't/our parts don't have the coping skills etc because we were watching our parent(s) with their own maladaptive coping skills. It came up that narcissists are basically dissociated because they relate to others through a false reality. Perhaps, the dissociation is partly "learned" through watching my family members and their connection to reality.

I think I need some time to process absorb everything that's happening.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Blueberry on August 20, 2023, 10:30:24 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I've just been reading quite a number of your recent posts. I can relate to a lot. Particularly interesting for me is what you write about your parts and dissociation - it's useful for me to read in relation to my own parts. It sounds as if you're further along than I am so that gives me helpful input too.

I don't know of the Joanne Twombly book (but I can google it obviously). Is that the one you're referring to when you talk about the trauma and dissociation book? I have a t&d book, but it's by Boon, Steele and Hart and I always forget the exact title in English. I haven't so far managed to really get into it and work with it, repeat the exercises, well apart from Chapter 1 last year inpatient. You're obviously further along in the actual work with the book :thumbup:  :applause: 

I was really interested to read about your forest place as safe place (tho I think you call it something slightly different from 'safe'). I had a particular safe place for one part and it didn't seem safe at all objectively speaking. A tiny island in the middle of the ocean with huge waves crashing against the rocks a foot or two from the part's feet and always in the dark. My brilliant T of the past 5 years was able to help me communicate with the part about why that particular place? Feeling safe meant being alone, which is likely to happen on such an inhospitable island! When I mentioned this dangerous-seeming place which the part wouldn't leave, a previous T from way back said 'Oh yeah, inner children particularly like dangerous places' which made me think there was something wrong with the place and that I needed to get that particular part off it 'sometime'. Previous T was obviously not as well informed or as experienced. If you feel 'bad' or 'wrong' about places because of something your T said about those places, I'd suggest talking to her if you can. Based on my experiences, you can't have the wrong place in your imagination. That place has a reason for being in your imagination.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 21, 2023, 07:16:37 PM
Thanks for stopping by Blueberry - it's news to me that I have dissociation. I thought it was just spacing out or daydreaming, not that there were parts dissociated from me. I don't think I have DID, but it was very interesting that she put CPTSD in the list of dissociative disorders. I'm glad that you related to what I wrote and have some experience with it.

This is the book here and it's quite an easy read. I will have a look at the one you mentioned. Also, the Janina Fisher book on Healing our Fragmented Selves is supposed to be good as well. I don't know how far along I am as I feel like I'm just putting the pieces together that this is a thing for me, but I do find her exercises helpful.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trauma-Dissociation-Informed-Internal-Systems/dp/B0BRXZWP5C/ref=sr_1_1?crid=DIMLBMWLXIA5&keywords=joanne+twombly+internal+family+systems+trauma+and+dissociation&qid=1692644506&sprefix=joanne+twombly+internal+family+systems+trauma+and+dissociation%2Caps%2C125&sr=8-1

I'm glad you realized there was something about the place that the part needed and it was not "bad." She has a very good way of describing in the book how you can begin to look around, or ask the part if there's anything there that it needs to feel safe, or is helpful ie is there a tall building the part can shelter in away from the waves etc. I think the power of suggestion is very tricky for NPD children because we are so used to not trusting our internal system.
 
I agree about telling the t what feels right, but what I'm realizing is that, on an unconscious level, there is a learned helplessness and the idea that someone knows better than me because of how I was brought up. To have my feelings etc shut down, and for so long, in such a way that I don't think it's a problem or could know any better. I think there's a part that does this because it needs the other people to be safe, or do what the other people are suggesting so that I can get better and be "safe."I guess there was no proof that I could trust my internal system, and that the things my gm was saying wouldn't come true. So I needed, or looked to someone else in the same way as I did with my gm. It's just what I'm sensing happened. Saying no, and asserting things is a tricky one.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on August 22, 2023, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on August 20, 2023, 09:28:35 AMI do experience parts as being in the past and it comes up as these things are "removed" from each other. I don't know if it was a "dream," if I could hear parts because I was half asleep and more relaxed, or was prompted by what Hope wrote in her journal, but the other night I "heard" should we show her what happened? And it made me pretty anxious.


Hi Dollyvee,
I thought about what you said here, and wanted to say that I remember in the night that I had invited parts to 'show me things' - and that the effect of that had been overwhelming for me.  Therefore since that time, I've often said to the parts - 'I'm happy for you to show me some things, but please don't overwhelm me' and somehow that instruction/request has worked out - as they haven't overwhelmed me like they did on that other occasion.

I have put the name of the book by Joanne Twombley on my list of books I think I'll buy - but probably not till later in the year, but I am grateful that you have said some things from that book in your journal, as it sounds very interesting and relevant to stuff I've been looking at myself.

 :hug:

Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 24, 2023, 08:44:42 AM
Thank you Hope - that's interesting. I don't remember reading that you asked your parts to do that. I thought it was just the expereince of talking to them in the night so that they were more settled.

I did one of Joanne Twombly's tapping exercises to bring all parts into the room (for people who don't have a connection to their parts). Just below the clavicle it was fine, but then I remembered she suggested tapping on the outside of the arms with them folded across the chest, and that brought up this feeling of fear right away. Just panic and fear and needing to run.

I feel like I have two modes right now, being worried that something is going to happen, and trying to space out/block that out (tho I do wonder if this is essentially bringing it on/self sabotaging as I'm not proactive and doing things). T has brought up before that my experience growing up was always that something bad was going to happen, or the good would be overturned. So, maybe now I'm sort of self sabotaging because I'm ready for those bad things and that's an environment I know (and can blame myself for bringing it on). Work has been going well, though maybe not as busy, and am going away on vacation. In a part of my mind though, it's going to end in disaster (not going to have any money) and how can I spend this money going away. This is where the lines do get blurred though because I think the cost of living crisis has a very significant impact on a lot of people and it's something to factor in. Everything has gotten more expensive and doesn't seem to be slowing down with no help for rents/utilities from government etc. I also wonder if this is a young part that is thinking about this things and not an adult part. It was celebrated by my gf about how cheap he was. Any time I spent money on something nice, it was must be nice to have so much money etc.

I had the experience recently of someone quoting some conspiracy theory garbage at me about that I found distressing. I think perhaps because what they were talking about was a situation that directly impacted my family. Anyways, I showed them a newspaper article and they basically ended up saying that they were older ("more wise") and that they believed they were helping people (morally superior) etc etc. I looked up how to deal with conspiracy theorists and there was information out there about what to do. I later reassured my parts that see, I am an adult and am able to research now on how to handle people like that. Looking back at her now, I do wonder if this person is a covert narcissist. Though, they could just have a very thin connection to reality.   
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 26, 2023, 08:04:06 AM
I did the tapping exercise again after recording myself doing the voice instructions for it. Actually after the second time doing the exercise, I felt more relaxed and I guess more in the present. Something still felt off though, or maybe I worried myself into feeling off or there was the underlying anxiety that I couldn't shake? I had a relook at a "self holding exercise" I found when I was first starting IFS that I posted in my journal. Rereading it now makes more sense. I'm also noticing that there is a part of me fighting doing these exercises and writing in my journal.

"If one has no access to Self, concepts such as self-esteem and self-defense can be confusing. They may make sense intellectually but not experientially. It's not that one does not care about these concepts, one may care a lot about them; it's just that they make no sense without an embodied experience of Self.

Accessing Self would also allow access to the inner knowing of what one wants some refer to as "My Truth" or "My Personal Truth" as well as one's Personal Will, the "decider" or action-taker. The ideas of Personal Truth and Personal Will probably are difficult for someone who has no access to Self to really truly "get.

There is a baffling passivity that comes with having no access to Self and being stuck in states of Immobility (deer in headlights) Dissociation (mind is in another time/place) and Hyperaraousal (uncontrollable terror). Of course, as the agent of life (Self and Will) has been totally obfuscated and lost, passivity would be expected. These exercises help gently bring one out of this extreme passivity."

https://www.new-synapse.com/aps/wordpress/?p=234

I think I fluctuate between all three states. The hyperarousal coming up the other day during the tapping exercise, but could be perhaps underneath quite a few feelings. I did this exercise and the first part, or shift, went very fast. When I first connected, it was like my mind was racing all over the place. The second one took a lot longer and I don't know if I actually "shifted," or had the change of state she is referring to. At first I felt like this kind of very stiff shell, or maybe exoskeleton, inside kind of rising up. Maybe it was just becoming aware of it. Then, I felt a lot of memories about when I went to school, the school of my choice after I left the path my family wanted me to go on. There were a some feelings around that like maybe I wasn't seen there (or successful?), or got validation for my creativity, like it wasn't good enough, but also how carefree it was and just went out and did stuff.

So, I don't feel like that experience "completed," but I also felt/got the impression that it wasn't going anywhere and was kind of stuck. I'm not sure why it came up about that time, maybe because I am going back to my hometown shortly and the last time I lived there was around that time. I'm also thinking of moving back and maybe I kind of have a fantasy about what it will be like, or there's things coloring my ideas of what it would be like. I guess it also made me aware of what I am accomplishing (or not accomplishing) and putting out into the world.
_________________________
The also very funny thing I noticed is that my new gym friend has a veery similar history to my family's history. I don't know if I subconsciously picked someone like my grandparents to feel safe with, or someone to trauma bond with
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 27, 2023, 07:36:33 AM
I was talking to t about some of the things coming up with protection being one of them and how my gm protected my m from her biological father's abuse (as gm describes it) and maybe had some kind of abuse like that herself. I got the "impression" that t was sympathetic to my gm, or that it was up to me to "forgive" my gm for all that happened (and allow it to happen (?), and perhaps that I was wrong for holding onto this or feeling this way though I didn't recognize this until after). I became really upset and defensive with t, feeling like I had to defend myself and what I was doing, that I was alone in understanding what it was like to go through those things, and maybe some anxiety that I was "wrong" for doing those things (later saw this as guilt).

T asked me what was making me cry and I said frustration. I also told her that it was funny because here I was trying to focus on my life and sort things out and I felt like I was back in the same place, talking about my gm and feeling like she was taking all of the focus on her. I also felt like t was upset that I called my gm a victim, and tried to explain my frustration over having to rush to her side every time there was a health "crisis" only to watch her repeat the same behaviours until another one came and we were expected to rush to her side worried again.

Other people have gone through similar things to her and have not come out like that. The new gym friend is a good example. I could feel the part of me trying to protect my "self" and not have it engulfed by this, and all the things I should do. I think guilt was very familiar, and probably from very early on. The feeling I have of "giving my power over," and thinking other people know better than me, is an almost automatic response at times. I tried to communicate this to t and how I think it comes from being enmeshed with my gm and the right to have these boundaries (and a self) feels very chaotic when people get too close to this. It was very emotional to talk about these things. I tried to state that I do have empathy for  what my gm went through, but also that empathy very easily turns into guilt or feeling like I have to do something. She also asked me about my anger towards my gm, and looking back i think it comes from trying to have boundaries when I was the one who was "supposed" to save my gm (in the files from her psychologist, he describes that our relationship was the only thing that made her happy/feel better). At the time, I think I was probably the little child part who had to go through these things and feel guilty if she didn't do them, but also didn't want to do them. I really felt like I was back in the same place of having to justify myself yesterday with my gm as the "poor me" in the background.

I guess as an outsider looking in maybe that sounds harsh, but I think if someone went through having an NPD mother/gm it's maybe familiar. T said that she was proud of me. It was also very emotional just to express myself and set those "boundaries" with t and say what I think was happening (and not have it turn into my gm asking why I was angry at her and feel guilty for expressing myself).
_________________________________

Growing up it was always, don't be angry when I was upset and I think as I became a teenager any time I expressed something to do with my gm or her behaviour (setting a boundary etc), it became why are you angry at me with her being sad about it/acting hurt. I wouldn't even be angry, just trying to have a discussion about something she was doing or had done that didn't make sense to me and I would end up feeling guilty/frustrated. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on August 29, 2023, 09:57:17 AM
So, I had an interesting "bit" after posting this. After commenting on gc's post, I decided to look up the article on legacy burdens in Innovations and Elaborations in IFS and came across a couple things. There was an article on being blended and obstacles to unblending that described a situation close to mine with parts who want to be very active, and then not do anything, where the parts were so polarized and neither wanted to relax control. So, they did a simultaneous unblending. I'm not sure if this was 100% applicable to my parts, or something that just seemed relatable. I very much have a part I think that is very hard working and another which maybe shuts it down because it's scared we'll work all the time. What was also similar to the article is the idea that I had to do these things for a reason, and I am probably "worthy" if i do them, and feel worthless/bad about myself if i don't. I think this is related to what my grandparents/family expected of me.

The other thing that very much popped out was the idea of loyalty in the article on legacy burdens. This is such a powerful thing and I don't even know how fully conscious of how loyal I am to my family despite of everything that's happened. How/why did it take 10/11 years for me to even acknowledge what my second t said about my mom being a narcissist? Enmeshment is a factor, but isn't that a kind of loyalty as well? I also wonder about the dissociation coming up, and passing out, when reading about parts coming into the present. These parts could be scared about coming into the present and lack knowledge of the resources adult me has, but *they can also perhaps be loyal to the grandparents and mom that they wanted to protect, or felt like they wanted to help, and didn't want to leave. I see adult me as a loyal person, and I get the feeling that this came from childhood.

The other thing which popped up in the legacy burden article was the realization of how the client's problem solving part and helpless part (also both dealing with their own feelings of worthlessness) sounded like her father and mother's relationship. I started to wonder after reading this about my feelings that came up in my session with t, and I wondered if, to an extent, my criticism of my gm was maybe a reflection of how critical my grandfather was to her and the frustration over not being able to do anything was a reflection of my gm's helplessness (learned or not). They were going through a divorce when I was around 2 and I know I would have been exposed to these dynamics. I think there was also an implied loyalty to my gf, he always wanted to know that we loved him. I think I also felt a loyalty to my gm in that I felt like I had to take care of her (because I was the one that made her feel better). I think there is a freedom in this knowing this isn't all my stuff, only a portion.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on September 02, 2023, 06:37:23 PM
Hi Dolly,

That's interesting how you related to that article and your grandparents.  It makes me think about how my current inner IFS resembles my FOO and my upbringing.

I remember reading a fascinating book back in the 1990s called "why we do what we do". I can't remember the author's name, but the book was a series of about 111 questions that I answered on paper. Twice. The first half of the book asked 111 questions that I was to answer from my childhood. In other words, "When you were a child, describe your relationship with your mother" Then the same questions were asked about your father, Gm, Gf, school, peers, siblings, etc. It asked about interests, what made me happy, what was I afraid of, etc.  Once I'd answered all those questions as a child on paper, the second half of the book asked me to relate to my today self. It asked roughly the same 111 questions, but this time it asked about how I relate to my children and spouse and boss and job, etc. I can say that by this time, I'd written so much that I really didn't remember the answers I'd given as my 4-year-old self. But when I was all finished with the entire book, I reviewed my own writings and answers to all 222 questions and was shocked to discover that my answers of how I relate today to people and situations, and even God, told a very bold story about how my current life was influenced by my childhood life. Speaking only for myself, I guess you could say that, for me, my current Internal Family System sure looks a lot like my childhood's External Family system.

I will say that, for me, the thing I was most shocked at was that my relationship with my parents was one where they told me they loved me, but when I wasn't what THEY wanted me to be, they'd threaten to disown me, ignore me. My mom would say "I'll put you on the street with a for sale sign on you." My parents had money and time, but no matter what I asked for, they usually refused to give it to me, which made me feel like their love for me was conditional and they really didn't have my best interest at heart. I sometimes felt punished if they gave me something I wanted. They'd often blame my getting a bike or an ice cream made them lose out on something they wanted. I'd feel unworthy to ask for things. Later, when I got to the current day questions about how I felt about God, what I wrote was almost exactly the same as what I'd written about my parents when I was a child. I wrote that God tells me to pray to him, but when I do, he punishes me for asking for help. My view of God was that I was unlovable, even though he gave me life. Exactly how I'd felt about my parents when I was a child. He threatens to send me out of his grace if I don't comply with his wishes. (I'm no longer a Christian. This book may have been part of what brought me to the decision to be spiritual but not religious). It was so exactly the same as how I'd felt about my parents when I was a kid, that I came to truly understand that the family who raised me truly set the programming for who I would become when it became my turn to be the adult.

What you wrote above just made me think about that book and about how my upbringing forged my beliefs in who I am and who I relate to today.

Secondly, you used the word loyalty a lot in this post. You mentioned that your loyalty played a part in how you related with your family. That word tends to send a shiver down my spine. Loyalty is how my narcissistic sister and parents and friends kept me in their control for so many decades. All those sayings about how family sticks together and how we owe it to them to put up with their abuse because of the loyalty of family. While true loyalty is a great trait, it's a trait that is easily used as handcuffs to keep us bound to a person, brand, merchant, ideal or any other entity regardless of whether the relationship is good for us or not. 

Loyalty is a good thing when we have legitimate reasons for being loyal. It's a curse when we are loyal because we're told to be. Narcistic family members use loyalty to keep their "servants" and their "scapegoats" in line. Advertisers use Loyalty to buy customers. When I was a boy, my dad was a Chevy man. My best friend's dad was a devout Ford man. I used to ask why it mattered. Then one day in a Psychology Today article, the author mentioned that in the 1950s, advertisers realized that if they could get car buyers to be loyal to their brand, they could make any junk they wanted to and their loyal customers would buy it anyway. Hence the massive sales of the Vega and the Pinto. Terrible cars that loyal customers felt they should buy.  So to me, loyalty is a great thing, but it's a good idea for me to always apply critical thinking exercises when I'm wondering why I keep letting someone, or something keep me loyal to them. Sometimes the loyalty is a bond that saves, other times it just prolongs the agony of the relationship.

I like your thought about how loyalty plays a part within your IFS. It makes glaringly good sense to me, that my loyalty to my sister and narcissistic friends was driven by various IFS parts feeling loyalty to them.

I think of loyalty as a great thing, but it's a tool that needs to be monitored and adjusted. Loyalty drives voters to vote party rather than person. It drives wars and many other dangerous behaviors. But loyalty, if it's done with critical thinking, gives us the staying power to be helpful to people who need help. It drives us to forgive those who we are loyal to, and if we put our loyalties in the right place, we can do a lot of good in this world. If we put our loyalties in the wrong place, we just prolong our own suffering.

These are just some of the thoughts I had about my own life while reading your post.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 04, 2023, 04:02:45 PM
Thank you PC  :hug:  I want to respond but need to put some things I'm experiencing recently first.

So, I've come back to my hometown and am spending time with my father's sister. It's hitting me like a train. I've come on the forum, read people's' replies/thoughts etc, and it doesn't make me feel so crazy etc for being myself (of my healing self). The thing is, I do love my aunt and I think there's a lot of good qualities. Maybe it's just the negatives that are grating in me right now.

My dad and his siblings had a difficult upbringing. As I've known my gm (his mom), she's been an alcoholic, fun yes, fly off the handle in a rage while drinking, also yes. I remember being around 4/5 and my dad anf gm getting into a huge fight at Christmas dinner. I don't think we ever went back for a Xmas dinner there. I kind of brought up a few things with my aunt before about gm being an alcoholic and her response was times were different back then, people had it harder etc. Yesterday it was she wasn't always an alcoholic, it was only after the kids started to leave etc (but also gm and gp liked to party while we were growing up and then they would fight). My therapy/trauma brain is thinking that my aunt is in the mode of "my childhood wasn't so bad," "other people had it worse etc" that I think is the denial/survival skill many of us on here are familiar with before we actually acknowledge how bad it was.

The problem is is that even if I tiptoe around it and try and drop  thoughts about trauma, it's like an accepting but not really accepting of things. Like other people have trauma, but I've pulled myself up by my bootstraps and I did ok), or the white knuckle/push everything down approach. Any sort of mention of therapy/psychological things is a n acknowledgement that they exist, but also not something that she'd be willing to try. She was surprised that my dad involved me in some of his group meetings, and I got the impression that this wasn't/isn't stuff to talk about. I brought up that dad was the only sibling in therapy, or went to therapy to try and deal with stuff and she said it was because he was developing OCD. When I brought up the connection between mold and OCD, and that dad didn't have this his whole life, I don't think it really registered.

I think about my dad and how it must have been difficult to be the only sibling going through the healing process and dealing with a family that maybe didn't fully understand.  I guess this is the first time I'm seeing my aunt as close minded about things even though my cousin has mentioned it before. I'm also thinking about the ways this behaviour shows up in me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on September 04, 2023, 11:17:49 PM
Hi Dolly,

Sounds like you had an interesting and eye-opening visit with your aunt. I agree with your comments about there being a little bit of denial there, and that she's still living in the "It wasn't so bad" place of denial. 

No doubt your grandparents' drinking and partying was tough on your dad and his siblings. Booze and fighting affect kids. In my family, I'm one of five siblings, and I too am the only one who ever opened my eyes to the abuse and who went to therapy. It kind of supports my theory that millions (or billions) of human beings are dealing with lifelong trauma, but only a small percentage of us ever open our minds and accept that we were negatively impacted by it, and we'd be different today had we been raised in a more respectful environment.

I wonder who your aunt would be had she been raised without the erratic, "fly off the handle", and arguing behaviors of her parents. That kind of stuff stresses kids out whether they want to accept it or not.

If she ever does open up to the idea that she's been in denial/survival mode for years, she'll be lucky that she has you on her side. You've blazed a trail that if she chooses to follow it, you'll be there as her guide to the healing process.  If she doesn't ever consider that her parents did some harm, well...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 05, 2023, 02:09:26 PM
I too often think of forums like this as the ones who "made it" to the other side. We don't really hear about the ones who are stuck in "it wasn't so bad," only the ones who are trying to change.

I guess it's just frustrating/stressful because in that denial there is also a push for a "fantasy" of how things are, which I see showing up in little ways. The nephews are really smart etc (tho all grandparents think their kids are gifted to a degree), but unwilling to look at that they might have behavioural issues (which have magically gotten a lot better), or another cousin posting this kind of fantasy life on Instagram with aunt saying won't all the people be jealous.

I just kind of let this stuff go before, but seeing the connection to my dad and erasing the what happened, is making it harder to do. Of course, if you say something it's stirring the pot, looking to explode.

I do think my aunt cares very much about her daughter and grand kids, and tried to change the life she grew up with, but I think there's blind spots that have come with that too that she's unwilling to look at. Unfortunately too, it feels like I may have blazed a trail but it's something that would open mr to criticism about "not doing the accepted thing." She tried to go in on my cousin the other night, who is just fine with her life choices and very happy where's she's at. Of course her daughter is the one who has done everything "right." My other cousin has said that it's an endurance test to be around them and they're getting worse with age.

I'm really getting the familiar feeling of walking on eggshells that I had around my father at times and the need to very much hide what I'm thinking because it's going to be taken wrong. All of a sudden I'm a teenager wearing baggy clothes again.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 09, 2023, 09:34:04 PM
Quote from: Papa Coco on September 02, 2023, 06:37:23 PMI like your thought about how loyalty plays a part within your IFS. It makes glaringly good sense to me, that my loyalty to my sister and narcissistic friends was driven by various IFS parts feeling loyalty to them.


Thank you for your reflections PC. I think within those parts that feel loyalty there is potentially a legacy burden, something I'm taking on out of loyalty to the family, even though it's not mine.

It felt so good to be back last summer and now it's just difficult. I think I'm starting to see some of the issues on my dad's side that I never really looked at before. Yes my family is kind on that side but they're also in denial and that's not a good place for me to be. I'm starting to see why I felt the need to check out from everyone and go do my own thing. It's supportive, but only to a point, and an underlying sense of competitiveness which my other cousin confirmed. I think I'm just really struggling with the sense of being alone like I felt as a teenager as I was going through all of this. At least I guess it just confirms that there was a reason to feel those things I was feeling at the time and I wasn't being difficult, or unreasonable.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 10, 2023, 06:15:57 PM
I took a trip to the home I went to live in with my dad yesterday and I guess ultimately, is where he died. I didn't go inside, but it's on the real estate market for a crazy price, and as my aunt said, who knew. Finding it hard not to feel scammed about that, that it's just one more thing I've missed out on, left to fend for myself. But that's an aside, sort of.

Before I came back, I was having difficulty remember what the street looked like that was across from the park, which was next to my high school. It bothered me, so I went on google maps to look it up and walked the streets that I walked coming home from high school. Though I don't think I was ever walking back to that house, but to my friends that lived in the area. When my dad was alive, I went to a different high school. My new school was brand new and I was meant to be starting it after the summer after my dad died. I didn't really want my routine disrupted (or it felt too traumatic to start a new high school on top of everything that happened). So, my grandmother would take me, which was a 10/15 min drive away. But what I'm remembering as I write this, is that I often took the bus in the morning before I could drive (and I'm seeing now why driving continues to be a source of pride because it was my independence from my family once I learned). I think I took the bus to not be a "burden" on my grandmother because she was "frail" and had issues and I was "thrust" upon them. This is how I saw it in my head. I could and did take the bus to be independent, but I think my grandmother "preferred" to be involved and maybe that's why I'm "forgetting" my independence? This is interesting.

I think I also took rides from my grandmother because she took me directly to my best friend's house (at the time) and then we would walk to school together. In my mind we were exceptionally close, but perhaps this had more to do with codependence and not being able to fully comprehend everything that was going on at the time.  It's also interesting that this was also not a situation which fostered my independence.

I'm writing this because I think there is very much a part, or parts, that are not in the present. As I was driving around the neighbourhood and past the park, I knew I had been back to these places in dreams. I could also see that the neighbourhood had very much changed and was in the process of changing, but it was like a part of me couldn't fully take that in? I looked at the listing photos of the house and while I could very much see that it had changed, I was also drawn to remembering what it was like when I lived there.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on September 30, 2023, 07:20:11 AM
I've been having weird symptoms since I came back from my trip. I guess a part of me feels like I'm crashing back into my life here and messing it up? That could be old thinking, but there's a shift and I'm not 100% sure what's causing it. I've been ill and gaining weight again, but also that it's so hard to connect to people.

While I was away I went to an alternative bookstore that I used to love 20 years ago. It's like I've forgotten that metaphysical part in a way, but not completely. I think it's still there behind the IFS, meditation etc, but I guess I just feel like a totally different person. After picking up a book, I decided to get some energy work done. It may seem out there for some, but I think the things she talks about in the book make a lot of sense. When she spoke about people who always feel like they have to guard their energy, and that it's as if there's no protection/boundaries, I felt like it described all the things I have been feeling over the years that t's don't 100% seem to get. I know I've mentioned this to t and the response was, why does it bother you? And it's like I can't not let it, even after all these years in therapy. So, I decided to try this as an experiment. I'm not trying to blame t here or critisize, just thatI don't feel like anyone has ever 100% "got" this feeling that I experience, and even after knowing it intellectually in therapy, it's like I still can't emotionally shift it.

Last night was the first session and she did a clearing as well as some ancestral work. When my male ancestors came to me to help with healing, I spontaneously broke out into tears and just cried. I thought/realized the lack of men in my life, or role models (I don't know the right word here), and maybe how I've been "failed" by men. Again, I don't know if that's the right word. Afterwards, she told me that the women were lined up very closely to each other and that she facilitated creating space for the men to come and integrate with the women. I told her that I could relate to this image as my gm frequently told me that, "you couldn't trust men," and it was sort of like we've had to fend without them (gm, m all choosing not great relationships and me trying to go it on my own sort of).

The other thing that came up was just how foreign the idea of having ancestors to help is. I'm struggling with this a bit I think. In my mind, I think because there was no help that I knew in my family, it's hard to find a connection to the idea that there are helpful ancestors. I guess it's just a feeling like there's just dead family tree above me, but also maybe that that's not true as there must have been strength to survive and endure this long. I also wonder, if it perhaps is so difficult to fathom because it challenges what I have been told about my family from my gm, or the part of me that was told, "it's your family that will always be there for you," as an excuse to accept their treatment has resistance to this idea.

They also gave me homework which was to find enjoyment in light hearted things, and get in touch with that part of myself.I I also feel as if that's difficult as I'm pretty sure I've neglected those feelings a lot. When they come up, I'm pretty sure that I'm thinking about security/safety and how people will respond whether I am consciously aware of it or not.

I'm not sure what's going to come of this experiment, but I'm hoping it helps me let go of some things.   

______________________

I'm also rereading some of your thoughts on loyalty PC and realizing how triggering it was to read at the time (not your fault), just the idea takes me back to a place where I think I felt very helpless for a long time (with no one to listen). I think there were a lot of those feelings coming up on this trip whether I realized it or not.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on September 30, 2023, 12:00:23 PM
hi Dolly,   i hope you have a nice day
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 01, 2023, 09:41:03 AM
Thank you Larry, I hope you have a good day too.

______________________________

I've listened to a podcast on ancestral medicine and IFS and took away some insights into this work. She said that we are very much a reflection of our ancestors, and are an embodiment of their gifts and blessings. I guess that's a more positive way to connect to the idea that there are healthy ancestors to connect to. I mean there must have been one that made it right?

She also said that ancestral work is a way to work through our legacy burdens. For me, it also seems as if it's forming a connection to legacy burdens in order to understand better what's going on. I know I've had and suspected legacy burdens in some of the IFS work that I've done. However, I haven't always been sure of where they originate or how to elaborate on them and perhaps this would be a good way of doing that.

I still definitely feel that, with trauma, there is hesitation about connecting to the "family." Maybe part of that is being able to choose, or discern, between what is a "well" ancestor, and what is an "unwell" ancestor.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on October 05, 2023, 11:13:21 PM
Dolly

I hope you're doing well. I am happy to hear you did some energy work with your metaphysical studies. The metaphysical and spiritual healing I'm participating in is working better than any other angle for me right now. I haven't been as active on the forum because the metaphysical/spiritual activities I'm doing now are making me feel really good, and I don't know how to talk about them without crossing a line of political correctness. So, I'm not sure what to write on the forum while I'm feeling good. I hope your spiritual activities are helping you as well. I'd love to talk more about it, but I am cautious not to talk much about spiritual stuff on the forum.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on October 07, 2023, 08:23:43 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
That podcast sounded interesting.  I attended something recently (although can't remember what it was!) where they mentioned about the ancestors and how they would pass on wounds that needed resolution - and someone asked a question about whether those intergenerational wounds would finish if there were no further children to pass them onto.  Someone answered that the spirits would then connect to someone else (not necessarily with any blood connection) - so they could also be passed on that way.  I thought that was interesting.

I wanted you to know that I've purchased Joanne Twombly's book about Trauma and Dissociation - thanks to your mentioning it.  I am looking forward to reading it.

I also wanted to send you a hug.  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 08, 2023, 11:49:32 AM
Thank you PC  :hug:  - I sent you a message which appears has been blocked by a firewall, but I'm happy to talk about this anytime if you want to DM me. I'll try resending it in a bit.

Thank you Hope - Welcome back  :hug: I hope you find the book as interesting as I did. Well, not just interesting, but helpful in explaining my internal geography and responses. I'll be looking forward to hearing your thoughts, good and bad, after you finish reading it.

_____________________

So, after a dating experience, which I won't go into too much detail about, but there was, to me, a lack of up front communication about what the person was capable of/what was going on with them that felt like it was drawn out over time to save them having a difficult conversation, or coming off as the "bad guy" for not bringing it up sooner, none of which they actually acknowledged, I realized a big trigger for me, and other FAs apparently, is being taken advantage of. I came back to this situation, after telling them that it felt like there was a lack of reciprocal effort, because I think underneath I felt like I was being taken advantage of, or that they weren't being honest with me. I guess there's a question of whether they were intentionally, or unintentionally not being up front, but it did happen nonetheless and I felt like I was strung along.

Apparently, after a little digging, there were a few sources that mentioned FAs can feel taken advantage of because they "take advantage of themselves." I had a little trouble processing this at first. I mean, how am I taking advantage of myself? I feel like I'm on my side. I guess, looking back, it's maybe a boundary issue. There were a couple instances when I asked this person about certain things and they avoided, or held back, from answering. Not wanting to be one to "push things," I left it alone, thinking they would be up front with me in they way I had with them. Looking back, this is an assumption that has gotten me into "trouble" before. I guess maybe I've had to hold back from saying things for so long, so as to not upset people, that I will still take it on, thinking I have to minimize myself in order to make/keep other people. I also realize that there is a line here where you're not supposed to push things in the beginning as it means having expectations, or not giving space to the other person as you're still both "figuring things out."I guess it's one of those things that makes dating with trauma hard, and takes time to understand.

I've been doing more reading on working with ancestors and on the history of my ancestors on general. I think it's brought up underlying things/ideas that have maybe always been there, but existed just off the frame of my awareness. Ie the ideological creation of what it means to be from this country and how that was sort of a construct beginning in the Romanic period, a form of nostalgia/creation and maybe not so much to do with the ancestors themselves.

It also came to me the other morning while driving how much of an issue I have had growing up feeling like I don't have a family, or feeling like there is something "wrong" with my family and it's something I've had to "hide," that I am essentially, cut off. I guess this makes sense that I would have a problem connecting to ancestors or feeling like I belong in my family.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 11, 2023, 01:22:35 PM
I'm realizing how much this dating experience has fed into a pattern of me making concessions for people because I don't feel lovable on some level. He was lukewarm in pursing though was positive, and not clear in his communication about what he wanted, it must be about me. However, at that point when I noticed, I think I was angry for making those concessions in the first place which I don't think I realized that I had already made. I guess it's the line that's walked between giving someone the benefit of the doubt and being the crazy girl, though perhaps I could have questioned things more when they came up. Instead, I think deep down it was about me and feeling like I was unlovable. If things didn't work out, there was something wrong with me. Again, I guess all stuff I very much didn't want to be true and overlooked these things.

_____________________

I put a paragraph in Papa Coco's recovery journal yesterday about looking to our ancestors for healing, or some type of support. A concept that I've been finding challenging coming to terms with. I had already written around the paragraph that, "I Think this is a challenging concept when your family has oppressed you or you've had abuse/trauma. To see a higher power, to have deference in where you've come from and the people who have done those things to you."

Today I read the following, which might be the antidote for these feelings by placing our "families" in a larger context. I wonder if that's what many of us are trying to do here, to make sense of why our parents "did this to us" when it fits into something bigger.

"Understanding family patterns also makes it easier to externalize or detach ourselves from any given pattern or legacy—and not take our own lives so personally.

For example, if I know that my challenge to be more open-hearted and expressive is something my father, his father, and the recent generations before them all struggled with, I can see the pattern as its own kind of living thing or configuration of energy. It is no longer something of my essence, but rather a complicated habit in the house of my life, family, and culture. In this way, I can spend less time indulging in shame about it and more time working with family and friends to together transform our burdens.

As a psychotherapist and community leader, I have also observed the unrealistic psychological expectations people place on their parents and elders in the United States. Longing for our caregivers to embody the divine mother and father is entirely natural. But it's also unrealistic.  Some cultures anticipate and address this problem in certain ways. First, children often have multiple parent figures (e.g., aunts, uncles, elder siblings, extended family), which can reduce the intensity of the divinity projection onto one's actual parents. Second, adolescent rites of passage encourage young initiates to forge direct relationships with the gods. When these rites are successful, they can soften expectations placed upon parental figures by facilitating direct, nourishing relationships with the sacred feminine and masculine and thus prevent a potentially devastating level of disappointment in family.

Finally, traditions of ancestor reverence help people see parent figures in an inter-generational context and in this way shrink (or inflate) family back to a normal size—not too large, not too small."

It makes me remember the thought I had the other year that it was just my mother's time on earth to do the things that she needed to do. Her behaviour is/was not about me as a person. This comes from a line of people doing those things, or living out those patterns. It's not just about me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: StartingHealing on October 11, 2023, 03:09:35 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on October 11, 2023, 01:22:35 PMhow much of an issue I have had growing up feeling like I don't have a family, or feeling like there is something "wrong" with my family and it's something I've had to "hide," that I am essentially, cut off. I guess this makes sense that I would have a problem connecting to ancestors or feeling like I belong in my family.


I totally relate to this dollyvee.  I have had / have the same feelings. since there was no info on my genetic ancestors at all when I was growing up.. never had the stories of wonderous deeds done by my ancestors.  in my mind I "know" that my ancestors were doing the best they could at the time being fully human.  Some were "complete rascals" to borrow a phrase from Alan Watts, and some where upstanding citizens of their time period.

I have done the genetic genealogy and have built out a family tree.  There is a great deal of knowledge there but it's all mental it hasn't been incorporated into my sense of self as of yet.  that is something that is an ongoing process for me.   

My spiritual path that I am on does have aspects related to ancestors and using discernment to tell the difference between "good for" and "nah" ancestors.

Wishing you all the best
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on October 11, 2023, 06:24:49 PM
Dolly,
I see my dad in the mirror every morning. I hear his voice in my own. I see my mother in my own eyes. I feel her anxiety when I'm challenged. I can believe that their traits did pass on into me. I  have my mother's sense of humor. She had her mother's sense of humor. My son has my sense of humor. Some ancient spiritual texts have mentioned that these traits embody 4 generations. So, my great-great grandparents are partly in me, and my great-great grandchildren will have a little of my spirit in them too. I think you're really onto something, and I'm going to start reading some of the books you recommend. A lot of what you are saying is ringing true for me too. Just hearing a psychic who didn't know me, tell me what my grandmother's name was, and that she's watching over me, and then finding out from family later, that Anna really WAS my grandmother's name, proves to me that on a spiritual level, we are connected to some parts of the generations before us.

StartingHealing, I resonate also with your comment that a geneology might not need to be incorporated into our sense of self. I'm no longer seeing PTSD as just a physical or emotional issue. I'm starting to really grasp the spiritual nature of our trauma disorders. It's starting to look to me like the reason people with CPTSD tend to be better people than the bullies who put us here has a spiritual component. I had 4 siblings. We were all abused by the same family and church. I'm the only one finding healing because I'm the only one who sees that healing is needed. My brother uses drugs and workaholism to ignore his spiritual growth. One sister is a workaholic also. Another is a narcissistic monster who takes every chance to hurt everyone she comes into contact with, and the youngest of us lost her battle with depression in 2008. I'm the only one of us who has a strong spiritual belief that things should be better than they are, and I'm the only one of us seeking help and finding it. I think it's the spiritual aspect of my healing that's finally starting to move me forward into a more "awake" way of seeing reality.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 12, 2023, 10:56:06 AM
Thank you StartingHealing - it's really complicated.  In my family, family was paramount. I was often told that there is no one that will be there for you, but family will always be there for you, which, I felt, was a messed up way to justify or excuse behaviours, but also feeling like there is a grain of truth in it when thinking about ancestors. Maybe this is why the concept is difficult. There was also a sense of guilt on behalf of my gm that she had let her family down by doing the things she did, and she felt like she made mistakes and needed to make up for that.

In my heritage, there is a focus on graves and cleaning up the graves of your ancestors (maybe this is normal?) where you go to pay your respects etc. I guess the emphasis on this and accepting the kind of behaviour that there was in the family, just felt really heavy and made me feel really cut off.

I've done parts of my genetic tree too, and can see how maybe the patterns of trauma formed given the time periods, events etc. I guess it helps to know that I'm a part of these things and as a result, things coming up aren't my "fault." I'm glad you've found a way to incorporate your ancestors into your spiritual practice. Wishing you all the best too  :hug:

Papa Coco - in the Daniel Foor book he talks about noticing coincidences as potential signs/communications from the ancestors. A few years ago, when I was going through my aunt's record collection with her at Christmas, she pulled out the Knack and mentioned how my dad loved, "My Sharona." I had no idea and never heard him listen to this song before. A year later, on his birthday, I had the radio on tuned to Radio 6, and My Sharona came on. I've listen to this radio station a long time and they play ALL kinds of music, but never had I heard My Sharona. Of course, it could be that I just didn't remember it etc as I didn't have a reason to, but that being said, it is such a memorable song.

Years and years ago, when I was first starting to learn about these things, I had some energy work done and she said to me that my dad is really proud of me for all the things I've done. I guess it's a difficult concept to accept that maybe he is healed/doing ok given how he died. I guess part of that is me confronting everything that I had to deal with surrounding his death (and things with my m/family etc).

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on October 12, 2023, 04:23:34 PM
Dolly

You bring up some good points. When you say that your dad is now proud of you, but his life didn't reflect that kindness, I've been told that when our parents die, they leave their meanness and selfishness to die with their bodies and while they're in spirit form, they are spirit. Spirit is love, kindness, gentleness, etc. They can't be their old selfish human selves while they're in spirit form. Maybe my grandmother, Anna, really was rough and tumble when she was here, but the Anna I know now is a loving spirit that watches over me.

My sense of humor is always on. Even when I'm depressed I can still find things to laugh about. I find that sometimes a cute, or humorous way of looking at complicated issues helps me understand and express them. For now, I've begun to say "What happens on earth stays on earth." Which helps me to remember always that our problems and our personalities stay here when we pass. Our loving souls are eternal. So when our parents passed, they left their human issues here and they are pure love now.

As far as I'm concerned, the My Sharona story is definitely your dad coming through. My hot water tank went cold one morning. My Jeep was blocking the temperature controller and no one could reach it. When I pulled the Jeep out of the garage, I saw someone had turned the temp nob all the way to zero. I had used the hot water only a few hours before and it was piping hot. I called a plumber who laughed at my story and told me that there are no motors attached to that temp nob. It can only move when a person moves it. She jokingly suggested I have a ghost in the garage. I turned the temp back up and the problem was fixed. I later told Coco that the plumber said we have a ghost, and Coco said, "Today's the anniversary of Mom's passing." Her mom died in our home in 2017. She had been living with us for 14 years. She passed of old age in her bathroom. We believe that was not a coincidence. That nob couldn't have moved on its own and nobody: NOBODY had access to it during the night. So your My Sharona story is just another Tuesday in my world. I'm not shocked or amazed. I'm just hearing a story of how your dad reached out to you with a song.

I don't believe in coincidence either. And as of this week, I'm moving toward believing that there is a spiritual solution to every human situation. Our IFS parts are not just figments of our imaginations, but are soulful connections to real entities??? Okay, now I'm starting to sound crazy. I'll stop here before men with straight jackets come to take me away.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 13, 2023, 08:10:28 AM
Thank you PC - I think that's a very powerful story of your MIL. my dad was kind, but troubled with his own generational issues wherever they came from (alcoholic mother, but great grandmother was ok, and her siblings are/were quite straight). Why I bring up the way he died is because suicide is seen as a troubled death, and perhaps it could be the religious and legal ramifications surrounding it until very recently. There's a lot of "stuff" surrounding it. I never told anyone really about how he died growing up because of what their reaction would be. I was also told by the new owners that my dad was still in the house (however much they shouldn't have said something like that to a 14 year old). So, in Daniel Foor's terms, perhaps my dad is well, but not at a 7 or higher on his scale. He's not the ascended ancestor that would, let's say, help me heal parts of the family line, but perhaps is doing much better "in spirit" than I thought. Who knows, maybe that came through because he was asking for help (and maybe this is the reaction of a person who had to grow up and take care of things at a very young age because here now is another person asking for help that I don't know what to do with).

And no, I don't think that IFS parts are a figment of our imaginations either, nor are they really just "archetypes" that we work with. I don't think men in straight jackets should take you away. However, there is a very real and recent (religious) history of people being persecuted for having "different" beliefs. Actually, not just religious, but you're right, medical too. I'm thinking of people who were taken to asylums for being gay. I read not long ago, and just checked the dates, that being gay was listed in the DSM in 1972. That's really mind blowing, but shows how quickly we forget recent history even thought they might persist on some level.

I listened to this podcast last night, which gave me a lot of food for thought around the idea of working with ancestors. It came up that maybe the reason I'm resisting this so much is because I was brought up to do things for my family at my expense of Self. I was given a lot of responsibilities of things to do in the family, and from a young age, of things that weren't mine to do like a lot of other children raised in NPD families. My sf even made me do chores in an unreasonable way (wow, I'm really being diplomatic with that another learned behaviour - don't lash out). He was a (insert swear word) that often made me do chores in a very demeaning way, for very little money/allowence, and gloating when I was made to do these things. The family also used/misused/abused my willingness, out of love, to do things for them. Working with and healing the ancestral line perhaps feels like an extension of that in some way. Although, I think the podcast clarified this somewhat.

She says that we are part of something much, much larger and it isn't necessarily about us. This really came through to me. As much as the world we live in tries to tell us it is only about us (social media to put out our opinions, cater algorithmically to our tastes, so we can buy stuff etc, narcissism rising as fast as obesity since the 70s where thinking about yourself only is becoming normalized) in the end it's not.

She also talks about the very deep changes we need to undergo together to change these patterns, that we need to do shadow work that comes along with this and face the difficult things in our past. She says that our anger about things will only get us so far, and that if we don't work on these other aspects, we end up creating a different version of what we've tried to heal from. I also like that she talked about having many more healed ancestors than unhealed, and it's only been the recent past that we haven't been taking care of our ancestors.

Here is the podcast is anyone is interested. It starts around 25mins in. The earlier part she is talking about the structure of online courses, but also a little about clearing. So, you could listen or potentially skip ahead.

https://whyshamanismnow.com/2020/06/ancestral-healing-where-to-begin/
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 13, 2023, 08:27:51 AM
edit: she also says that unhealed ancestral wounds prevent us from seeing reality clearly, that ancestral healing changes the reality in which we are functioning. Reality is coloured by the past, which is the reality of the world around us, the reality of ourselves and the reality of what is possible. As long as this reality is coloured, and being distorted by these unhealed ancestral wounds, we will lack the freedom to be the living and to create, innovate, and see in new ways.

Really powerful stuff.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on October 13, 2023, 04:17:27 PM
Dolly,

This is really powerful stuff you're saying. And wow, is it ever timely.

I wrote a long reply, and then thought that I was using up your recovery journal to talk about ME. So, if you look at my recovery journal for this morning, you'll see how closely related your day is to mine today. My entire day today is all about weeding through the fallout of my family making me do THEIR chores while destroying my own sense of self in the meantime.

To see my response, go to my recovery journal for today. The ENTIRE journal entry is about me, but it was inspired by your post today.

Papa Coco
---

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: StartingHealing on October 16, 2023, 12:14:20 AM
Thank you for the link dollyvee.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on October 18, 2023, 09:29:54 AM
Thanks SH, I hope you enjoyed parts of it/found parts of it useful, or maybe didn't and that was useful too :)

So, ah yeah.

I've been exploring some new things, which I've written a little about above, but also not sure how much I want to talk about here. I think there's definitely some things coming up, all good. I spent a day reading about flowers and growing hydroponic flowers. It didn't have a price, or was something that would have an "outcome," or was for healing (an outcome too). I read about a guy who made this very efficient indoor hydroponic farm inside of a shipping container and was working to supply local city restaurants with produce this summer, and was fascinated. What I noticed too, and only recently became aware of, was that I tried to make other people excited about it, like it was for them to be interested in. I could never be interested in this, it wasn't about me, or I didn't feel like I could take up the space to make it about me.

While I was out walking this summer, I really marvelled at all the different wildflowers that would come up. At times, I would be like what is that?! and see this delicate thing that would only be there for a couple days. In my mind, I would be organizing flower arrangements, thinking how lovely it would be to combine this with this, but also not thinking that this was something for me. Of course, there is something to that, if everyone came along and took flowers etc, it could have an effect on the natural biodiversity. However, it's maybe more about the idea in my mind that these things, as superfluous as they seemed, weren't for me. I was brought up to do things, to get results, get good grades, do things for other people, and to an extent, we all share that as a society, but what about play and just doing things because it brings you joy? I wasn't allowed this space growing up (except when I lived at my  dads). My gf would say that that's just a waste of time. Why are you wasting your money on that? I think this is similar to what Papa Coco was talking about in his journal too.

So, I picked a couple flowers, three exactly. A piece of yarrow, a wild snap dragon, and a meadow flower. My reasoning is that they were mowing the fields anyway. I've also bought some fresh flowers, and am learning about growing flowers hydroponically. Just for fun. 
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on October 27, 2023, 12:20:03 PM
Hi dolly,  sending some sunshine for you and your flowers !   :sunny:  :sunny:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on October 31, 2023, 03:00:47 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I remember reading what you wrote about the flowers you chose - I meant to reply earlier, but somehow didn't - but I think they sound very beautiful, and I hope you enjoyed them.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on November 04, 2023, 06:10:34 PM
Hi Dolly

I'm just checking in to say hi. I hope you're doing well. Sending sunshine for the flowers!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 06, 2023, 10:51:01 AM
Thank you Larry, Hope and Papa Coco. My flowers are doing well and the collection is growing - haha. No pun intended.  :hug:

Just quietly going through and processing things that are coming up. Feeling more space with certain things and other things that are requiring attention.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on November 06, 2023, 08:21:35 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on November 08, 2023, 03:54:22 PM
Dolly,

I love your pun: Your collection is growing. HA HA. Double meanings, both are true.

I read your response to my journal, and I see you working on your power.  Working quietly through things, processing, etc. I respect that so much, as I'm in the process of learning that I share too much and give away my own power too often. I've read articles about how oversharing is a common trait in adults who were traumatized as children.

Thanks for addressing this oversharing trait. It's true wisdom and I need to address it also.

Good luck with the balance of knowing when to share and when to be discrete. I'm working on the same thing right now.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 15, 2023, 10:25:09 AM
Thank you PC  :cheer:

There's a lot in the John Bradshaw book that's hitting home right now and it's taking me a little bit to stand back and work out what's happening.

I'm noticing there's a lot of shame behind my reactions to people, that shame drives me to create a fantasy about people and situations (especially with romantic interests) where shame then appears and then brings me back down to reality. It's like I have these feelings (that I feel not good enough, there's something wrong with me etc) that I don't think I am especially in touch with , or connected to, because really, who wants to feel stuff like that? Then someone comes along that I sort of fancy (the who/why is also probably interesting and subconscious ie emotionally unavailable so I can repeat the stuff with my mom and family), and my brain sort of says, this is it, they don't think I'm those things. I think they like me for me, that must mean I'm not flawed. So, the fantasy starts (and attachment too) only I don't really know this person, and my rational mind is saying you need to be friends etc and this other part pops up that starts looking for danger, trying to protect me. Do they seem like they're being deceptive etc and it's like the fantasy part wants to override it, and somewhere I'm just saying slow down.

Then what happens, through being hypervigilant I think, is I start looking at this person's friends for example, seeing what they're like, and thoughts start creeping up like, "oh, I think they would be much happier with someone like that; or I'm sure they would be interested in someone like that." And I start looking for evidence that this is true, which if I see a little portion of, it's going to confirm all my suspicions, and all those feelings of shame come flooding back. What's even more out there that's happened recently, is that the friend was genuinely kind to me and I felt this genuine connection in a short interaction, and that brought up all these feelings of how I feel like I'm not good enough for this person, I won't be good for them etc. So, I start armouring and pushing everything out because it's easier to do that than to feel all this stuff that must be "true" about me. It gets compounded when other people in the environment we're in I think don't like me (another thing I think is true, but have acknowledged that I often overlook the ones that might or whoa re kind to me), and I think that there's no way I can be vulnerable here, or show an authentic self. Though is my authentic self always vulnerbale? Maybe it's the strong part that I feel like I can't show?

So, this is all how the shame drama plays out and basically how I think I'm self-sabotaging my relationships (if there ever was a relationship there to begin with though I do think there's definitely some initial qualities that draw me to a person that are positive). This gets compounded when JB talks about "roles" that we fulfill. So, in my family I was the one who had to take everything on I think, the one who had to fix things for other people, and I was the one who made them happy. In dating, if someone pulls away for example, it's like I have this compulsion that comes up. My attachment feelings are triggered (this is rejection, what about the "fantasy," the feeling we had etc?) and I start taking things on. I think I have to fix it because that time I didn't say something or did x. It must be my fault. I know that I'm taking on responsibility that is not wholly mine, which is also a form of control against the feelings coming up. What's even more difficult is that there is a part of my brain going what are you doing? You don't have to do that, if I chase someone who seems like they're rejecting me for example. It's like I just give up that power and assume responsibility.

"The dysfunctional family system roles are ways we lose our reality. Over a period of time the fact that we are playing a role becomes unconscious. \ We believe we are the persona that the role calls for. We believe the role-designated feelings are our feelings. The role literally becomes addictive."

The next layer that's coming up is transferring shame through "niceness" and people pleasing. I was a really "nice" person, it's on them that they don't want me etc. Nice (me) vs deceptive (them) gets set up etc. This is what usually happens and I can stay in my shame, or keep it protected because these ideas keep playing out. Only this time it was different and it didn't come to a point where they "did something," but it's like I had some distance from it and can see these things playing out. I can see the compulsion coming up and my need to fix it. Of course there is a possibility that they will "do something," be deceptive etc, but I have the option to not fall into my previous role and to deal with the feelings that are coming up. I don't have to be angry that they're not giving me what I need for example, but have the choice to accept that they're not going to, to discuss it etc. I also have the choice to accept that it's not my responsibility to "fix it" no matter what the compulsion is, and that I didn't do anything wrong. These feelings aren't coming from a place where I feel like I can't control them because I understand a bit better what's going on, or am at least acknowleding, or trying to, that there's shame present. The fantasy version of them that I have is not who they are and it's not going to help me get closer to them, and it's also putting my "stuff" on them that I need to deal with. I think there might be dissociation present here too that keeps these feelings cut off, or tries to suppress them.

It's a lot and like JB says, these feelings are mood altering. It feels good to play this stuff out even if it's not serving me. It's confirming everything about the world that I think is true. These things also get so split off that we feel they are us when they're not actually our authentic selves. So, it makes sense that even though I feel like I'm better and understand things, that these patterns keep coming up. I don't think I've dealt too much with the feelings of, or been aware of, the feelings of shame that drive them.

This is already long, but I'm also noticing that shame comes up around people and that I'm subconsciously holding onto these feelings and looking for "protection" from certain people, or looking for a protector in certain people because I feel shame about who I am. Of course I feel shame and jumpy around people after the way my sf treated me and how I then was a more visible scapegoat in my family. My m already set this up I think, but was maybe more hidden.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on November 16, 2023, 03:57:52 PM
Wow Dollyvee, there is so much in what you wrote.  I feel like you're really analysing yourself and how things are in your relationships, and learning so much within that.  I just wanted to say that I read what you wrote, and I think it's very far-reaching in your ability to look at these things.  I hope you don't mind my saying that.  I mean it as a compliment, and that I am impressed by your working through things in that way.  It's thought provoking.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on November 21, 2023, 09:40:27 AM
Thank you Hope  :hug: I'm glad that made sense to someone. I appreciate you reading through that and being able to reflect on what I said.

I've been feeling less of a need to do things to be "there" for the other person, to go to the gym at a time that's good for me, to do things that feel good for me instead. I don't have to do these things for someone. I'm still friendly, wish them well etc, but I'm also not controlling things, or trying to bend things to achieve a certain outcome. The compulsion to feel like I have to do that (that it's my fault etc) is so strong. But I feel better I think. I'm feeling more at peace with my space in the gym, which is a triggering place for me.

I think the time to talk/deal with anger is coming up and I'm realizing how it affects me. So, potentially doxxing myself (who knows!), I went away on vacation where I spent some time in the woods. I've seen ticks in that area before and when I came home this time, I started having weird symptoms. I went to the doctor a few times and they assured me that it wasn't a tick because I didn't have a rash etc. I was pretty adamant about getting antibiotics as a preventative measure, and having them listen to me, but after one doctor sort of caved and gave me a week of antibiotics, I think I just gave up. I self abandoned because it was easier to do that then feel again like I was being the "crazy," difficult one as I had so many times growing up.

Anyways, I put all the tick stuff out of my head and didn't think about it until explaining to a family member what had happened after I got home when I realized that this "cough" I've had could be a symptom. It's not a cold, not covid (I tested), but a weird dry cough. Sure enough it's a symptom of lyme and I also connected the dots about how sore my neck has been. I've ordered tests and made an appointment with my FMP to see what's going on. I'm just thinking about how I feel like my options are to be angry that I trusted these people who, in reality, are certified to know what they're talking about and everyone will "believe" them, or to be the person who is going by their gut instinct about what happened. It makes me feel angry to not be believed, and then I think "crazy" on the other hand when I just do my own thing. I wrote off my feelings because I didn't know if I was aligning my symptoms to my "fear," well worry, of being bitten by a tick, but now am realizing that I wasn't "crazy" for being so adamant.

It's like when I explain to people about my reactions or feelings about certain people or situations, even with t, they will write it off as putting things on certain people. Sometimes that's true and sometimes it's hard to say where certain information comes from. There's also a long history of doing that in my family and feeling of not being understood for why/when I needed space. This also came up, or became apparent in the conversation with the family member. The old feeling of people talking about you behind your back and subtle competitiveness reared its head. I get the feeling of why do I have to make things so difficult for myself, why can't I just go along? And then something like the above happens and I see that I have to fight for myself.

Fight is an interesting word choice too.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on November 22, 2023, 02:33:01 AM
Dolly,

You're really digging in. I'm impressed. I honestly believe that the more we seek, the more we find. The more we examine ourselves, the closer we get to understanding ourselves. You are definitely a strong searcher. You read the books and scour the internet for help. it's impressive.

Gosh, I'm so sorry about the Lyme's. I hope you can get it cleared up quickly. At the same time, I sure do know what you mean about how nobody is really there to help us unless we push ourselves in and do most of the research ourselves. Doctors have let me down so many times it's head spinning. And they don't have to be accountable for passing us off as hypochondriacs when we later prove that WE were right, and they were wrong, and we then have to make them give us the medications they originally withheld.

I sincerely appreciate your hypervigilance, as I've lived with it also. It keeps me searching every crowd for any danger. It keeps me careful about who I love and who I push off from. Sadly, for me, it's been turned on a bit high, so as I live, I occasionally realized I'd walked away from people who I discover later, really did like me. But I went into a triggered state, or misunderstood a reaction, or heard a rumor that I shouldn't have listened to, and made the Hypervigilance in me ignite, and poof. Off I went. I figure there might be people out there who really did like me, but I got so scared I pushed away and left. It's not our fault. It's the trauma responses that were put into us. In The Body Keeps the Score, Van der Kolk makes it clear that what abuse did to us changed the wiring in the amygdala. Our reactions are hardwired reactions. When someone pushes a certain button in our consciousness, a predetermined response happens in our subconsciousness. Examining our reactions is the first step in rewiring the amygdala. And you are diligent about self-examination.  

It all falls back on the recreation of not feeling heard. The world makes us help them, and when we need help, we either can't ask for it, or we do ask for it and nobody steps up, or we just do it ourselves and call it "just another Tuesday."

I too often wish I could just sit back and let the world do its thing. "Live and let live." Or today's modern version of that saying is, "I'll be me, you be you." But my pull to be responsible for everyone's happiness and wellbeing is so deeply engrained into my DNA that I just can't do that.

I hope the best for your physical health. I don't know too much about Lymes, just that it's not to be ignored.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on December 04, 2023, 11:45:45 AM
Thank yo PC - I'm testing now a few different things as Lyme can mimic other viruses. It just feels so "boring" to have to stand up for myself all the time. I wasn't sure how to describe it, but the other day I read something about fearful avoidants avoiding conflict so they can maintain personal relationships. It's always felt so wrong to stand up because there was always the threat of people leaving (acting out/rejection) or setting boundaries somehow being my fault. Going through these experiences is like reliving that I guess.

This book. John Bradshaw says that "to be vulnerable opens us up to being shamed." I had an experience the other week where someone said it was nice to see me again, in an environment where I was hypervigilant, and it was the bottom fell out. It was almost like something stopped me from reciprocating because I knew I could be made fun of by some of the people there and I wouldn't be safe. I talked about this with tt and it wasn't like I had shame coming up, but I think it was the feeling of knowing that I could be shamed for being vulnerable like I was in the past. The thing I swore I would never want to happen again. And if it did happen, how could I go about convincing myself that 1) it's not like last time 2) I'm still a worthy person 3) that next time won't be different? Because I think all the little hypervigilance antennae I send out are looking for that confirmation that those things are true.

"Control is a way to insure that no one can ever shame us again. It involves controlling our own thoughts, expressions, feelings and actions. And it involves attempting to control other people's thoughts, feelings and actions. Control is the ultimate villain in destroying intimacy.

We need to control because our toxic shame drives us outside ourselves. We are literally beside ourselves. We objectify ourself and experience ourself as lacking and defective. Therefore, we must move out of our own house. It's like living in your front yard — guarding hypervigilantly so that no one will ever come in.

Achieving power is a direct attempt to compensate for the sense of being defective. When one has power over others, one becomes less vulnerable to being shamed."

I wouldn't say that I need to control other people, but the thought of not having some degree of control over myself, and the situation (to an extent) is difficult. I have to be ready for what people say and do. I would also say that I strive for independent power and now power over others, but a power that I can defend myself if I need to, but that drive is there. For example, the need to be self sufficient over personal relationships.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on December 04, 2023, 04:15:09 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I am glad that you're looking out for your health with respect to the concerns about Lyme - and hope that you are able to find out what the issues are.

I read what you wrote here about 'control' and I found it thought provoking.  I recognise in myself that I sometimes try to be in control of situations - maybe attempting to look out for other's feelings, rather than minding certain boundaries, and I am working on that side of things to be better able to be open to interactions, and feel less like I need to control them.

I would like to send you a hug, if that's ok  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on December 06, 2023, 05:13:06 PM
Hi Dolly

Control is the issue of the day here in my life also. The more books I read about spiritual healing of physical problems or physical healing for physical problems, the more I see the topics of shame and control come up in book after book. It seems logical that the more we try to control our feelings of vulnerability, the more out of control we become.

I think of control as a bit like hanging on too tightly to the handlebars, which makes riding the bike much more difficult than a light touch and trusting that balance will happen with momentum. I'm glad a lot of authors recognize this. Any book that shows how we can learn how to let go and be at peace in the moment is a good read.

I drank to control the feelings of vulnerability to a life that had problems I couldn't figure out how to manage while sober. People called booze "liquid courage." Back when I was raising a family, I lived always on the verge of losing my home due to chronic money problems. I was terrified that if I were to lose the house, my FOO would stand back and laugh at me for being so stupid that I couldn't support my wife and children.

I was far more afraid of the public shame of being unable to support my wife and children than I was about living under a bridge with them.  Since I didn't know how to fix the money problems, and I didn't know that feeling shame is normal and should be accepted, I drank instead to try and control the shame by shutting it up under the distraction of the alcohol.

It didn't work. The drinking to suppress shame actually became more shame.

Alcoholism is an extreme example of a way we hide from our shame. Other examples are anger, irritability, insulting others, greed, (If I can get rich, I can hide from the shame...but like with booze, the wealth eventually becomes part of the shame). The more I focus on this concept, the more often I catch myself reaching for anything, from junk food to angry outbursts, anytime I feel vulnerable to my own shame. ALL the things I've used to hide from shame, became part of the shame. The only thing I can do to stop the treadmill is to start accepting shame as a way of digging down to find the root of it, and then dealing with it, rather than try to counterbalance it with aggressive or passive control tactics.

Thanks for sharing JB's words from his book. It's solid information and is corroborated by other good authors as well. I think how we hide from shame is a pretty credible topic for research.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 01, 2024, 12:39:42 PM
Hope - thank you  :hug: I hope you find some room to work with what came up  :hug:  I often felt that way as well, stepping outside myself to control the feelings of other people as a way to control the environment and what happens. I guess this is the root of codependency, and again, a way of not dealing with my own feelings.

PC - you're right on with the feelings driving addiction and control. JB goes into this in the book and that toxic shame is the root of addiction. He also goes on to say that it's the process of giving up that control to a higher power (whatever that might mean to someone) as a means of releasing control and helping bring that toxic shame to "light." Rage is also the face of toxic shame as all the other emotions become "bound together" as I understand.

Have been stepping back and maybe having a brerak/processing things. I think perhaps this has helped me a bit to realize the critical voice in my head that is always blaming (shaming) myself for not being x enough and how much that voice sounds like/reminds me of my gf. How much is just blocked out because "I can't feel like that." It's such an immediate reaction to go into that. T and I talked about this recently and she said that our ideas about relationships, and responses to relationships were formed very young. Just realizing how much of my reactions are from a "young" place.

I guess there's some core things I've been dealing with lately, feeling like I'm going to be blamed when I stand up for myself. And just saying to myself so what? Trying to challenge my negative thinking that I have done something wrong (but of course looking at my own accountability). Again, I think this feeling of doing something wrong comes from a very young place and when I start to "step out" (I don't know how to explain this) of my preconceptions, I find maybe there are some places where this originated that I don't quite remember well. I'm thinking about my aversion to cooking sometimes, and this prevalent feeling that I will make a mistake. Then I remember cooking with my grandmother when I was quite young (maybe 5?) and wonder if perhaps her behaviour was perfectionistic and scolding for not doing things "right" as I remember her being in later years. However, I don't know/can't fathom why this would "freeze" me.

Thinking about the idea of vulnerability and trying to challenge my ideas about being in "danger." Something I read recently was to challenge the idea that your partner (or the person you are dating etc) is not out to hurt you. Of course, there are situations where you have to use caution, but it's also about trying to understand the difference between the two. I know I have been activated lately by someone I'm interested in and I immediately took their reaction as bad/making fun of me/humiliation. It took a bit to step back and try to evaluate that maybe that's not what it was, or that I don't have enough information to discern if that's what it was. I guess part of the issue too is that sometimes I want to believe that they weren't doing that instead of the truth of the matter, which is that maybe they were being unkind. I think my brain blocked out peers/kids/people being unkind etc a lot because I didn't have any boundaries to model it on growing up. There was no role model where I learned how to stand up for myself, I just blocked it out instead and tried to avoid people like that. I think I had to take peoples' behaviour and that was all I had to work with growing up. (I think this is what I mean in therapy when I say I had/have to take it all on).

It's so funny too, or I'm realizing how much I push things (feelings) out of my mind. I had someone say something to someone that kind of "exposed" my feelings for them, basically telling them I was interested in them. Internally, it brought up a lot of things. It sounds so childish, or at least that's what I was telling/reprimanding myself with, but it just brought up all that stuff about putting myself out "there," and how difficult that is for a shame based person to do. Adult me is saying a guy knows you like them, so what? But that's nowhere near the emotional reaction that's going on inside, which is like there's no where to hide. I was sort of pissed off about it at first, though I think they mean well. I brought up how I thought it was a bit much and I didn't ask them to do that (though I had talked with them about this person before and did ask if they knew/to find out their name). I don't think I did this in an angry or heavy way, but tried to be a bit firm. They genuinely apologized to me and asked if I was mad. I said no because I didn't feel really mad, but it didn't feel right for that to happen.  We are fine and worked it out. I pushed it out of my head (emotionally I guess because bringing things up like that there is probably a bit of dissociation going on) and in the car on the way home I thought about how I don't think anyone had expressed genuine concern for violating any boundaries growing up, or listened when I talked about my boundaries/what I felt, and it brought tears to my eyes. And then, of course, I feel shame that I didn't get that experience growing up when everyone else has had such seemingly normal lives.

More to write on the JB book and maybe how much I feel like I'm outside myself, that there's this image of me that I have to maintain that I think other people respond to, and how I imagine what their responses would be. Lots of shame stuff rn.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 02, 2024, 10:55:43 AM
A couple insights from the JB book that I think are really pertinent today:

"we are willing to ask and believe that we do have the right to depend on someone, or something greater than ourselves"

I think about how much of the time there is something in me that says/feels, I have to do it on my own, which, as illustrated below is part of the battle, but can be also taken too far.

"the goal of life is to move from environmental support to self-support. The goal of life is to choose undependence. Undependence is grounded in a healthy sense of shame. We are responsible for our own lives."

I also think how much time, effort, and energy I put in to looking (consciously or not) for someone to protect me. It's confusing because you do want to have someone you can depend on, but I guess what matters is where that need is coming from. Is it coming from something in childhood that I didn't get, from that particular emotional place?

______________________

Hmmm so I'm readding to this. It's very interesting that I left out another quote that stood out to me today, which was:

"Perhaps the greatest wound a shame bound person carries is the inability to be intimate in a relationship. The inability flows directly out of the fundamental dishonestyy at the core of toxic shame"

I ended up speaking with someone that I'm interested in and I guess have been building up an image in my head about whether I admit it or not, or really I guess whether I realize it or not, and I found myself telling a "white lie" about something I did. I woke up with it on my mind and was trying to fathom why I did that? Did I want to seem a little more interesting? I haven't done something like that in ages (well, I don't know how much they were white lies, but maybe just dancing around the truth so I don't have to explain why I was on my own, or fully explain myself etc). I was just like what am I doing?! And then of course, more shame for having done the thing, I'm a horrible person. I guess this is the dichotomy JB talks about in action. I am either super human (no flaws) or now, subhuman and worm-like. I guess the way through is that I am just human and sometimes I make mistakes like that.

Again, it's really about being seen for who I actually am. If he doesn't like me as I actually am, then what? The other thing I read was to focus on if you like them, rather than if they like you and at times like this, I guess it's good to remember. I feel like I am beginning to put this person on a pedestal (unknowingly, it just happens so quickly at such a deep (?)/ undetected emotional level) and it's hard to reframe it. Ie that it me who is worthy and has to decide if I mesh with this person and want them in my life.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 03, 2024, 10:16:04 AM
Rereading what I added yesterday and realizing how much "dancing around the truth" there was (and is though maybe not as much anymore). One the one hand, my biggest aim was to be honest, but on the other, it was like I just couldn't let people see these things about me. It's not like it was even really conscious either.

I found JB's talk about the infancy and toddler stages in childhood really pertinent as well. In infancy we need mirroring and unconditional love, which are non-verbal to an infant. "I'm so glad you're here, I'm so glad you're a girl, I want to be near you, to hold you, to love you." I don't think I had these, or a messed up version. I know my mother told me I was a "mistake," and how my gm cried when she found out I was a girl.

As a toddler we need to hear, "it's ok to wander and explore. It's ok to be angry, to say no. It's ok for you to do it and do it your way. I'll be here. You don't have to hurry. I'll give you all the time you need. I won't leave you."

When I was reading the above, I started thinking about how frustrated I get with t sometimes when she suggests things that I might be feeling, or connect it to what it might mean. I feel like just let me say it, or be it. Then I started thinking about how it was like with my grandmother and how maybe there was a way to "do" things. Like I was being corrected all the time. What's funny is I only have a vague memory, or feeling, of this happening with her at that age, and crossed it out when I wrote it out in my paper journal, putting question marks beside it. It's like I can't remember this, and was worried I was putting a false memory on it (because my gm loved me? That she meant well?). Then I wrote, "or that any protest or contrary idea other than how she was a loving person was always shot/guilted down." That I do have a very strong memory of it happening, especially from when I was a teenager. It just felt like light bulb moment that there was some pattern/dissociation happening from a young age where I wasn't allowed to believe something and it still affects my memory/thought processes today.

He also writes that, "each time we start something new, we trigger our infancy needs. After we secure and trust our new environment, the toddler part wants to explore and experiment." It reminded me of the times I felt that sort of free floating anxiety starting something new, and could never quite pin down why I would have that. I think it comes up a lot around people, and they think that I am fearful or not confident, which I don't really think is true. It's just dancing around, trying to manage this pretty much subconscious feeling coming up that I don't really understand. I can see now how not being welcomed into the world, to not be told how much, how happy people are, that I am here, might give me that feeling.

I feel like I am also working on giving up control to a higher power. I didn't actually realize what a challenge that is and how parts of me are opposed to that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on January 03, 2024, 01:29:04 PM
I've just been catching up on your journal and a lot of what you are writing about from the JB book is resonating with me. Particularly the parts about control a few posts back.

The comments about the childhood stages resonate hugely too. I am pretty sure I did not get much in the way of mirroring and unconditional love as an infant. Of course I cannot remember, but my mother told me regularly during my later childhood that I was a hideous-looking baby with googly eyes. She also told me my father did not want children, and certainly not girls. And although I cannot remember anything much prior to the age of six, I know that after that age I was not permitted to explore or take risks or do anything my way, so I cannot imagine I was permitted to do that as a toddler. Your comments and insights are very helpful. It seems like you are getting a lot of good healing work done right now and I am happy for you.

Thank you for sharing all of this.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 04, 2024, 09:13:00 AM
Thank you NK. I'm sorry your mother said those things to you. I know how hurtful and awful it is to go through things like that. My mom used to call me Miss Piggy because of what I would eat, and tell me how "chubby/fat" I was compared to other kids. The adult part of me is like well who was the one feeding me? And another part that reframes it as projection and understands that she felt that way about herself, so she put it on me. However, thinking about it, I'm also reminded of the part of me who felt bad about myself for years, not being able to connect those dots.

It's also interesting that this comes up in dating and I don't even realize it. That I think I start to self sabotage/shut things down because I feel like he would like someone who is x, or has x qualities. That way of thinking about myself was very much reinforced by my m. It's not just the original abandonment, but the putting down afterwards too. I feel like I'm noticing how much abandonment comes up in dating and I'm not even aware that that's what it is. It usually goes there's someone and maybe there's a mutual interest, vet this person for all early red flags etc. Then if that's going well, I notice myself thinking about them, focusing on the good feelings (limerance?). However, I can also feel myself pulling away, and notice that I will be anxious if I'm going to see them again. This is where I think all the abandonment feelings come up and my brain goes to work trying to self-sabotage etc. But what I'm noticing is just the feeling of anxiety that's there and that I think that's abandonment stuff. I try to remind myself that I will be ok if things don't go well, if they end, but sometimes that feeling is fuzzyy and hard to hold on to. I feel like I'm putting my stuff on someone else and it kind of sucks because I don't really want to do that.

I feel like the way through is "radical honesty," and getting out of these ideas/fantasies in my head, but it feels so difficult/ worries me I guess because I feel like I've been punished for being myself in the past. I guess this is the point where the bottom just falls out. I guess I'm trying to be understanding and patient with myself as I go through this and hope that someone else is able to understand that as well.
_____________________________

Coming back because I'm writing about the stuff above but also not about how hard it has been to do some things that I need to do (write some emails) and deal with some pretty big things that are happening. Just life stuff that has happened that I need to face involving bad business managers. It's been kicking around in the back of my mind how my gm had similar issues when she was around my age. It also brings me back to how there is always a focus on money in my family. And now I've made a "MISTAKE" by trusting someone (no being vigilant enough) that has to do with money. It will of course be ok, but it's just bringing up stuff which I then think I'm blocking out.
_____________________________

I bought some lilies for my room and they're such an incredible vibrant pink <3

_____________________________

I also think it's going to take a while for the infancy and toddler stages and reaffirmations to sink in. T has only been talking about it for seven years though in a more intellectual way. Now that I know/can fathom what these things look like, and what they're supposed to "feel" like, I think I can come back to it.

_____________________________

I remembered this dream I had in April I think that was quite a powerful dream at the time. I think I may have written about it here, but can't remember. There were these two guys watching me, observing me, and it was because, or I had brought this demon energy back with me (that connected to my gf? something to do with the Second World War during which he grew up). I feel like it was dealing with a lot of the stuff now about being seen maybe and how difficult that is. I don't want to be observed because I am carrying around awful, generational toxic shame.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 04, 2024, 08:32:43 PM
Dolly,

I can picture the lilies in their vibrant colors. What a nice thing to do for yourself.

That's interesting that something today brought back the dream you had 8 months ago. Something must be similar about today as was happening in April. The dream sounds like it had a pretty deep impact. Your brain, or your IFS Parts, or even your angels may have been helping you access some feelings that are hoping to be addressed in some way.

Did you bring the dream to your T? My T loves it when I bring my dreams in. He is able to do some good deep work with me through the meanings and feelings that specific dreams bring up.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 05, 2024, 10:24:15 AM
Thank you PC. They make the rooms smell great as well.

I did bring the dream to my t and another one I had had a few days before as both really stood out, and felt like there was a lot going on. I'm so reluctant to have people put their interpretations on dreams though because it's both deeply personal (as you mentioned with communication from a higher power(s)/ancestors etc if you believe in that) and, like now, you never know after some reflection/time what was/is coming up at the time. T suggested/thought however, that it might be a feeling similar to how I would have felt as a child where I was "all bad" etc. Now, in the light of the toxic shame stuff coming up, I can relate though am still reluctant to say it's all one thing.

I don't mean to be pedantic writing about this romantic interest stuff in my journal, it's just such a big source of anxiety. Well done for all of you that managed to somehow minimize those parts of you that were a barrier to this, but I haven't been able to effectively do that.

I had an experience with this person and was excited to see them and continue the conversation. Maybe that's the first flag. I've talked with t about the dampening of hope and how I try to minimize things like this because on some level I think things are never going to work out. On the other hand, I can recognize that that's a lot of pressure to put on something at the beginning. However, I don't think I recognize that I'm doing that emotionally, which I guess is part of the problem. Anyways, I took what they were saying to me as they could see I was eager and they were trying to let me down gently, explaining why they weren't going to be around. They were telling me how they were sore after working out, but my brain and body read the "cues." Of course the cues could be correct and I'm not just willing to believe it (I can see how people say I overthink things). Anyways, I just sort of said I hope you get some rest and went into the change room as we were both walking that way, which they said bye, but sort of curtly like they were upset I just walked away. This put me in a place of feeling lots of things and being hard on myself in an environment where it doesn't feel safe to do that.

I think I was acting from quite an anxious place, trying to figure out if they liked me or were interested. It's so hard to slow down my reactions in situations like this and is one of the reasons that I prefer to stay isolated. I don't feel like I can take his (or other peoples') behaviour in a "normal" way. It's easier to be nice, to keep a distance and dance around stuff like this because otherwise I could do something to upset someone else (?), do something wrong, or people will see my reactions and think I'm crazy/judge me etc and these are things that I can't control.

I guess underneath it all is the me who had to go through a rejection and subsequent humiliation which hurt very much. It's also reliving the feeling of I've hurt someone that cares about me by being myself, or I didn't say the right thing, how could I be so stupid etc? Tbf I don't really know this person and have no idea if they care about me, but the young parts need to feel that's true I think. So, they can believe (?) that he's not going to hurt me. It just sometimes feels like a cruel joke to keep going through this. I'm trying to step back I guess and see that these are just thoughts and not reality, but again, it's so hard to do that in the moment especially when I do have other experiences/instances of things not going well with other people.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 05, 2024, 12:06:06 PM
I'm going to come back to the above because, funnily enough, the part in the JB book I'm reading right now has to do with dreams, and working with your inner life through dreams.

I haven't been very good lately at writing my dreams down when I wake up. Sometimes I do it all the time. However, other times there is a block and it's like I just don't want to. I woke up the other morning with a vague memory of a dream, but didn't write it down. It was like something in me didn't want to evaulate it, or it just didn't make sense. On going to bed the night before, I had asked for a dream about the situation with the person I talked about above.

After reading the part in the JB book today, I decided to write down what I remembered of the dream. There was a friend from Uni who was holding something in his hand. He was always very calm, dependable, though maybe a bit arrogant at times. His step son was there and was grown. He had grown into someone with emotional/behavioural issues and was "all over the place." Looking at it now, it's kind of a reflection of my own inner world of being calm, dependable on one hand, and out of control on the other. What's interesting is that I had a memory come up of being with a friend in high school who came with me to visit me at my mother's house. I think I got overly emotional with my mom and went to that state/place that I regressed to when trying to deal with her/get her to understand something etc. My friend was said something along the lines of, "what are you even acting like right now?" Who are you essentially? I guess like it was my fault (?) that I was so worked up (I think because my m was refusing me something). I guess the act felt shaming in itself that she didn't understand what it was to deal with my m and why couldn't I just control my emotions. I was the problem in other words. One of the instances I think where I learned that people don't understand (though at 18/19 who has a clear picture of narcissism?).

It just made me think about the dependable person I had to be, and the emotional person I wasn't allowed to be. I can see this coming up I guess in relation to this person. Does it mean that I can't express both sides? Or maybe that I want to integrate and be able to express both sides of me? (rhetorical).

I know that my m had her own traumas that she went through that made her who she was, but oh man, I think it made me angry too (and probably powerless) when people took her side too.

I think there is also the experience that both my m and gm were these two kinds of people. Nice and demure and then fly off the handle, like flip flopping between two personalities, and I've tried my best to suppress (and of course learn and grow from|) whatever instance of that that would come up. My m and gm very much both had abandonment trauma and I guess that is maybe what is coming up with this person, or my own version (inherited or otherwise) of that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 05, 2024, 09:23:29 PM
Hi Dolly,

I'm no expert on dream reading, but your assumption seems sound to me. It's making you feel that disconnect between being in control and out of control at the same time. Or of being loved for who you are versus being loved for what you can do for someone.

I've learned a lot about myself through dreams. Some dreams feel like dreams: Like my brain is working through things. Other dreams feel like visions or even visitations from other people. I think all are valid. All are meant to help us in one way or another.

And I really resonate with your romance situation. I was living in so much of the same distress and self-questioning that you describe until I met Coco. I believe that for me it was my fear of abandonment that made me feel incomplete without a partner. Now, I still have all those same abandonment issues around my casual friendships, and even with my own children.

I don't know if my oldest son loves me or hates me. I finally stopped bothering him by wishing him happy birthday every year, and he hasn't bothered to connect with me since. I kept connecting with him, but he kept ghosting me and cancelling every lunch date on the morning of, and I finally decided that I don't believe he wants me in his life on any level. What few final and public Facebook posts I saw from him pushed me away for good. He has apparently become a staunch trump supporter and had only horrible things to say about his mom and I about how brainwashed and stupid we are and that if we ever die he's going to give his inheritance to trump. HIs exact words to the general public were "I don't want anything from them." I took that as a cue that I'm no longer welcome in his life, and I did what I do: I  disconnected 100%, or what the trauma experts call "I fled". I don't know if I'm right or wrong to do what I did. I'm his father. Should I be bigger than that? Should I keep proving my love for him in hopes that one day he'll come to realize what his politics is costing him? What I do know is, it's very hard to know what other people are thinking, especially when they give off these strange cues while I'm living with abandonment issues.

My biggest question is: Where's the line between what's really happening versus what I perceive to be happening with another person? How do I know for sure when to pursue and when to walk away?

I know it's not exactly the same as what you're going through, but not knowing if I should pursue my son or let him go helps me to resonate with the frustration you must be feeling over trying to read these romantic relationships that keep coming up for you.

To make my own personal abandonment situation even more confusing: I have known a lot of people in my long life. A lot of them were important to me in a lot of ways, and a lot of those gave me signals that led me to believe they wanted me gone. Then, occassionally, years or even decades later, I find out that some of them felt a loss when I vanished on them. I had left because I didn't feel like they liked me at all, then 20 years later I found out they liked me a lot and felt abandoned when I left them. That only adds to my confusion. HOW DO I KNOW when I need to pursue versus walk away? It's a question I'm still looking for answers for.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 06, 2024, 02:03:44 PM
Thank you for sharing that PC. I'm sorry that things are like that with your son. It made me think of my brother and the things he has said about me, and for a moment I felt the pain around family that a lot of us have to go through. For me, it's just something that I don't deal with I guess. I can also see how going through versions of that might make one reluctant to open up to other people. We don't know what other people are thinking and we can only go by their actions and set good boundaries. But tbh sometimes I still don't know what that looks like. I was explaining to t about a woman in the sauna that gossips about other people and she commented that she was crossing other peoples' boundaries. It didn't even cross my mind that that's what it was. I just knew that it made me feel very hypervigilant.

Quote from: Papa Coco on January 05, 2024, 09:23:29 PMMy biggest question is: Where's the line between what's really happening versus what I perceive to be happening with another person? How do I know for sure when to pursue and when to walk away?


Exactly. I feel like I have to rely on my internal antenna but it takes time and going through these things I guess to be able to figure out what it's telling me, and what is hypervigilance/old stuff as well as what is fantasy. To go through all the shame and feelings coming up instead of trying to lock them away and then be hard on myself because I'm not this "other" person that would do those things (whomever that might be). I feel like it's more the former lately and less the latter which is progress. Though, if I'm honest, parts of me still feel like I did something wrong and need to apologize. However, I also feel like there are times like this when I have misunderstood something, or have jumped to conclusions because of past stuff and want to say, I interpreted what you said as x, but at what point is it over-explaining?

I'm trying to ground myself by saying, these are just thoughts in my head and not reality. The other reality is is that I've had a lineage of relationships modelled for me with messed up, controlling narc men (just processing the gf stuff here I think) and narc women. Relationships were never safe on that side of the family, even if they were presented to be. So, I guess trying not to be too hard on myself for my reactions and hoping someone can be understanding about that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 06, 2024, 05:10:55 PM
Dolly,

I share the sentiment that parts of me (also) feel like I always need to apologize. We both probably know this is trauma. Our FOOs had us in their control when our brains were wiring, and this is how they wired us.

My T does this thing with me when I express real fear around real things, like climate change and losing our democracy or whether I can trust someone or not. Sometimes, rather than sit there and ask me why I'm afraid, or try to diagnose the root of my fear, he looks me in the eye and says, "I'm afraid too."

It's surprising to me how good it feels to have someone just admit it and share in the fear with me. It is so validating to know that he sometimes has to decide who to trust also and that he is willing to admit it to me. It validates that my fear is normal because he feels it too. It helps calm the loneliness that comes with feeling isolated and shunned by family. When people tell me I shouldn't be afraid of my relationships or safety, I automatically feel shame around how I "should" be feeling differently than I do. When T just sits with me and says, "we can be afraid together" It feels honest and bonding. And that bond helps me a lot.

For now, I'll just say that I typically feel that same worry with you that I can't determine if my inner antenna is picking up bad vibes from the people I'm with, or if it's picking up--and acting on--the trauma from the people of my past. I don't have any better solution for myself than just keep working toward progress rather than perfection as I navigate my social life with this trauma anchor chained to my leg.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 06, 2024, 09:17:14 PM
Thank you PC  :grouphug: I don't know if it's an "EF" but I have been quite emotional, with tears the past few days and lots of stuff is coming up, which I think has to do with the scenario you mentioned. I am not very good with connection and I think this is where those tears are coming from. Connecting to another person, even just for a talk, or showing myself in an authentic way I guess, brings these feelings up. I know that having someone connect to me and say, "I feel afraid" would be a similar scenario, and I would feel a lot of resistance about that. Sometimes, with my first t, I would just start crying (well I would get teary) and he would ask me where it's coming from and I couldn't say. This "stuff," or feelings I guess, are usually very well hidden. Coming out of hiding, through connection, I think brings this stuff with it.

___________________________

I've been clipping some little posts from instagram (ah, instagram therapy) but they are nice little reminders too of what healthy guidelines might be:

- listening in full and inquiring about their intent, if confused before responding. It's important to recognize that we all filter information differently. Sometimes how something is intended isn't how we receive it.

- taking responsibility for what we hear, perceive, understand, react to and interpret.

- (on self sabotage) thank your brain for trying to protect you and remind it that it's not actually effective. Instead, learn to challenge your own thoughts and stop treating them like facts.

- (on self sabotage) cultivate a practice of self-trust. Because you know in your soul that you will be okay no matter what, all the sudden attaching to someone else seems a lot less scary.

- a secure partnership requires both people to simultaneously tolerate their own distress while responding to their parter's distress. This means managing your emotional needs and trying to understand your partner's needs as well.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 07, 2024, 01:12:38 PM
Trying to find some space to deal with the feelings that have been coming up and I rewatched a talk that I've commented on here before, but I don't think I summarized? I'd have to check. These are my thoughts/summary/paraphrases and haven't used direct quotes all the time.

Moving Beyond Fear: The Ultimate Protection Is Within You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0g05e8QIs&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=19&t=1421s

Rewatching it after connecting to the insights made about the infancy and toddler stages by John Bradshaw, has maybe given some insights about the nature of cptsd for me, or the nature of my cptsd after growing up in a family where you were not allowed to have an identity.

The infancy stage is the first developmental stage of our personality as I understand it where we are mirrored by a mother (usually) and told (non-verbally) how welcome we are to be here, how much they want to hold us, to love us. There is a feeling of unconditional love. I think when we do not get that, for example growing up in narcissistic families where one is not able to mirror back to the children at that age and confirm/validate them, we have an experience of fear, or this fear of empty space. We have no connection to "mother."

TWR describes losing connection to unbounded sacred space/infinite possibility when we try to identify with a relationship (family, husband, wife) to get over/because we feel [a] lack in love; in order to fill this empty space, but in doing so, we obscure the connection to that space or infinite awareness (called "mother"). So, from the very beginning, as children of NPD parent(s), there is a loss of identity and a need to fill that space with some sort of secure job, relationship, idea in life so that you're protected; you're ok.

We seek to find reassurances through people (and jobs etc) that you are ok, but you are identifying with something that you are not, which is why these feelings of being ok and protected never seem to stick. For example, suddenly that person disappears and you have that empty space back and the person who you were identifying with (that part in you), no longer feels supported. You are experiencing that empty space and fear because you have been identifying with the thing you have created in your mind (fantasy etc). I feel like children of narcissists have had this from the beginning, the feeling, fear of the "void" because there was no support from the beginning. Only that empty space.

This is where I think I need to do some work and maybe where the difficulty comes in. He says that you can never be lost; you were just too connected to something else [other] than you were to your own being. Of course, this is where I also think teachings, and concepts, like this can be difficult for people with this sort of background. Maybe it's a part (very much in fact that sounds like my gm saying, it just isn't that easy; the world doesn't work like that). Or maybe it's a part that took on some of those beliefs. In my family, you there wasn't a "hopeful" outlook. However, there is also the question of where is the line between hope and fantasy, which I often think blur for me (because of having those certain unfulfilled needs as a baby etc), hoping that this person will maybe be what I'm looking for and (dissociating) into fantasy instead of acknowledging the reality of what is happening (because I believe I am a bad person/not good etc and they will validate me).

At worst, we identify with a condition: I am not good. I think that growing up without that support from infancy and the feeling of being wanted as a baby, as well as being a receptacle for all the projections of a m's, gm's, gf's etc own lack of self worth and shame would have led me to take on the idea, and feeling, that I am not good. In relationships/with romantic interests etc this also comes up as I am not good in a fear of being seen. I am attributing my sense of self worth to another person (as much as I think I'm not/would not like to). TWR asks what are we saying to ourself when we repeat this mantra? He also says that we do not have to repeat this mantra. Just because it comes up doesn't mean we have to take it on. It doesn't mean that we can do everything, but we can say I would like to try, it would be interesting to do. We can redirect those ideas into a sense of hope, an optimistic, lively energeticness. There are possibilities.

"Fear is experiencing the emptiness without the feeling of warmth, awareness, and completeness after losing something you have been identifying with."

"Sacred space produces illumination; it illuminates the warmth within you, to be able to say, "I love you" without identifying with something else."

"Somebody put you in that space to feel that emptiness in that way. You have to be strong enough to say, 'this space is a new space, I need to illuminate this space, to be aware of this space.' You are exploring the awareness and perfection of Self with a warmth quality; [without an identity] which you would have never let go of, but they took it away. Thank them, thank the situation. Look at it as an opportunity." You can never lose who you are, you can only lose an identity.

He says that we also have a fear of the unknown which makes us feel uncertainty because we don't know what's going to happen. But it also opens up possibility of everything that you don't know to happen. Any place that you feel limited and closed, that's the place that you need to open up. It's personal and experiential (so varies from person to person).

"I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that there are infinite possibilities to what could happen and I'm so hopeful to the possibilities of spontaneous perfection. It's not an end, it's a beginning. Fear is preparing to ending something and that is the great opportunity to begin something properly in the right way which will help oneself's deep sense of self development."

He speaks about how when we feel fear, we go outside ourselves for "protection." There was no sense of protection as a baby with a narcissistic parent. That identity, sense of safety wasn't given at the beginning and are looking for it outside ourselves. I do this all the time. These men feel overpowering, will there be another one to step in and protect me. I don't know how much I actually act on this, but the thoughts are there. I feel a sense of relief from governments etc about protecting me if something happens (which did not during covid etc imo). But, he says, at some point you realize there is nothing outside the moment that can help end something, and must look to the inner refuge/ultimate refuge for protection. I see this as somewhat parallel to John Bradshaw's idea in giving up control to a higher power. Neither trying to control (my life, emotions, outcomes, other people), or anything outside myself, is going to give me that sense of protection that I've been looking for since I was a baby.

"None of the things you identify with will protect you; you need something beyond all of those things which is the ultimate refuge within oneself. This does not mean that one tradition is better etc." This makes me thing of my gf where there was a sense of righteousness and a way to do things. It was his way or nothing. If you had a different idea you would be stupid or wrong, and he would laugh at how you could be so foolish. I realize how much I had to take this on in a way (as sometimes it was practical, "common sense" stuff that was actually helpful. My gf was smart, which makes it a challenge to let go of. He did achieve monetary security in his life after a lot of hardships and challenges - being a refugee, living through WWII, but I also think of how dependent the women in the family were on that, looking to be taken care of (?), and how he would use money as a means to control. He didn't like some choices you were making, that's fine he would just cut you off. He was always right and you would be wrong. Of course, then my ideas about protection, sense of security (identity), and love would then be challenged, or activated. Money means control but also survival, and taking care of me means love. I didn't clock why when the guy I have been talking to told me he worked in finance (with a sense of assurance) that I sort of felt something in me sink. It's been on me to be self-sufficient and to not rely on anyone for money or anything (at least this is what I'm telling myself/protecting myself with).

He goes on to talk about how the way to the ultimate refuge is through the three doors in the body, mind, heart or stillness of the body, silence of the (monkey) mind and keeping an open and focused heart. I feel like those of us with cptsd/trauma backgrounds have specific challenges with concepts like this because sometimes our bodies cannot be still with memories, or we had to be still/freeze for safety; to be silent meant survival for there would have been negative consequences (fear of annihilation) for speaking up; and keeping an open heart would mean feeling like we had to continue to love those who were hurting us at the expense of ourselves and our boundaries. 

Some fianl thought are that I feel like there is shock that comes along with the loss of identity for a child (baby) who experiences this which is then replicated throughout life as they search for that mirror, or identity in other people/jobs/ideas/forms of security whatever they might be. I feel like this shock/fear might be hard to manage because there was no safe mirror from the outset, with no reliable idea/replication of "mother." So, while difficult, perhaps it's also an experience of detachment, which comes with an (immediate) connection to the unbounded sacred space though with a sense of fear to be worked through with a hopeful outlool.

Just my thoughts and ramblings.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 08, 2024, 11:59:48 AM
I tried to put this into practice yesterday when feelings of shame (?), or feelings of not being good (?) would come up, and would instead try to think that this is an opportunity to see that I am worthy of love, or a positive relationship. Maybe I could have started at, I would like to try to have a positive relationship. However, this was much harder to get a hold of than I imagined. It's like that thought goes so far back that I couldn't get to the basis of it, if that makes sense. That maybe the need for control, and ability to not see a positive outcome, was quite strong. Maybe I am trying to control the outcome in some way by doing this though. If I say these things to myself, then I might have a chance of getting the relationship (thing) I want in my mind, and am not really open to the infinite possibilities (including the ones I'm trying to avoid - rejection and hurt). So, to some degree am trying to control the outcome. I think this is human and we all do it of course, but maybe it's helpful to me to be aware of that, and to sit with that part from way, way back and try to see if it could take even a little bit of this on board.

I've also been thinking about how I coped with all those feelings coming up, or going back to that time when I was in my late teens/early 20s dealing with this stuff, trying to find my way and the life I wanted while the other part/half was all over the place emotionally. I guess it felt out of control, to use a word that has been coming up lately. I remember being at my first t's office in uni (before I left), sitting in the chair just crying and not always being able to articulate what was going on. There was a feeling of weakness too I think, that I couldn't get a hold of this. Maybe also a sense of shame about it in relation to other people. My second t wanted to diagnose me as either (slightly) histrionic or BPD because I wasn't able to deal with the emotions that would come up. He was a good t though, and suggested my m was a narcissist. Although, I'm surprised about the lack of awareness about having a narcissist as a m could do to you emotionally. I guess I felt like I was blamed with a diagnosis, and it was my fault that I couldn't control these things. So, I pushed the emotions down and kept going after the life I had thought I wanted. I was still in contact with my family at this time and his suggestion of NPD didn't cross my mind to look into until 10 years later. I think I just took it on that these things were somehow my fault, and if I could just fix myself it would all work out. My family would see where I'm coming from, I would be understood etc. So, I think I kept these things pushed down. It was also challenging at work to make a career with all these things coming up, and I don't think it felt safe to deal with them either.
 
For me, I think if something didn't feel "safe," I would try to push it down, stay a distance, or cut and run. I don't necessarily feel like that's a healthy way to address things and think I'm trying to work through that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on January 08, 2024, 04:08:36 PM
I think you are doing fantastic work. Good for you.  :grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 13, 2024, 12:06:29 PM
Thank you NK  :hug:  - t is on christmas hiatus and I think I'm workshopping some things here

So, I think I inherited a lot of ideas about relationships from my FOO. Over the years there's a lot of things that I'm aware of intellectually, but seem to keep coming back to, or popping up emotionally. One is that x partner (whoever they might be) is going to leave me for someone else. I think this is abandonment trauma passed down, but again, is one of those ideas/beliefs that just sort of gets woven into your mind somehow. When I was cleaning out my gf's house after he passed, I found a letter from my gm where she wrote, you're going to leave me for someone younger (or something along those lines. Part of me wishes I really would have kept it now). On the flip side, my gf had also accused my gm cheating in the past (she said she never did). Her psychologist reports that I found a few years ago, talk about how she could never fully invest in the relationship with my gf. I also remember her telling me when I was around 4/5/6 (?) that one day I would get older and not want her anymore. My m also had a lot of stuff around her f leaving the family (or being asked to leave) when she was around 4.

As dysfunctional as their relationship was, my gf and gm also couldn't leave each other really, and continued to be friends after the divorce (after about a decade of really bad relations).

I guess this is coming up for me now because one of my first impressions were that this guy wants the attention of these younger women that around. Of course, that could be true. I don't 100% trust my inner processes about this though, even though I sort of acted on it and initially distanced myself. I don't know how much is old stuff/not my stuff that is coming up. I thought, I could ask for more information and find out and, even though that seems like the most reasonable approach, tbh, it seems like a foreign idea as weird as that sounds. Like I have enough (space in the world?) to be able to do that?? I can make a decision about something (well not exactly something but a relationship which I think I was at the mercy of growing up)?

I don't know what exactly is coming up. I read something about what to do if the fear of being cheated on is ruining your relationship and it said focus on the fact that you will be ok if something like that happens. (I don't think it's expressly this fear that's coming up for me, maybe just that they're not genuine? I don't know). However, I do think that I will be ok if something that like happens. What I do feel like would be an issue is that I should have known better, and why didn't I trust my instincts (instincts that were running off a first impression/very little information), and how could I be so stupid, which very much sounds like my gf/family. The self-attack after a humiliation. Because it would be, how could I be so stupid to think that I had anything to offer, that they would be interested in me? They would then be holding the key to my self-worth (as I think my family did growing up). That is very much a feeling that I felt growing up and there's the part of me that wants to protect me from that humiliation at all costs. Of course, these aree just thoughts in my head about something that has not even happened.

In my family, relationships brought security, not happiness and you stuck by all sorts of ill treatment for security. I think I grew up having to do this too because I didn't have anything else as a young child. So, in my life interestingly, I've focused on career over relationships, which was also a focus on security. I can't be in a relationship if I'm not secure etc. I feel like I've forgone relationships (though I've dated and said I want a relationship) because it messes up my idea of security. My gm was very focused too on me not being dependent on a man, and I guess I can see that (though it came in a very high dramatic look how much I've messed up my own life, I don't want these things for you, I'm such an awful person type of way). To even start to actually show up in an authentic way, is bringing a lot of this stuff/feelings up.

Anyways, the thing I read said to focus on what you would be afraid of for yourself and your future if someone cheated on you. What I came up with was:

- somehow my security would be tied to them; that it would mean a threat to my security (identity)

- that I had made a bad choice when I should have "known better" (gf); how could I trust someone (you can only trust your family - gm)

It's kind of, again, that damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario that I knew so well growing up. I guess I can focus on the part of me that knows that I will be ok, that things have worked out so far. That the adult me has taken steps to maybe be in Self and help all the younger parts that didn't have that growing up. And, the really difficult one rn, that I'm not a bad person as well as, that person is not trying to hurt me. I'm amazed at how quickly I can be put back into a place where I am on high alert for danger, that someone is trying to hurt me. It's being in this place an dealing with x romantic interest at the same time that feels really disorientating.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 14, 2024, 12:12:14 PM
So, what I feel like I'm coming back to in a way is that I've had to show people the truth about their behaviour (to save myself as a child), and I feel/think there's a sense of loneliness and having to sacrifice relationships along with that.  I stood up to my m and sf and received their treatment/punishment in return. I guess this sounds easy on paper, and looks like the right thing, but I think in my mind it works as, "I'm the one who made my mother not love me by standing up for myself, or look at all the pain I caused her by my (selfish) actions." I think it makes me quite ready to sacrifice myself (because I blame myself) for someone else, and I'm ready to make things work, but in the end I'll still have to show people the truth about their actions to save myself, or sacrifice the relationship. (I'm not sure about this last part as it doesn't 100% make sense yet; maybe it's a young part).

But I think I'm coming from a false selse (or shame self) because I feel like I have to make it work vs the me who stood up (the authentic self) because that person is flawed and couldn't/can't be loved (?).
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 14, 2024, 08:57:27 PM
Dolly

I'm sending you my thoughts and friendship. It sounds like you are really working hard on yourself right now. I'm always impressed by your efforts. You are a smart person and I hope that your current efforts move you forward a few steps in your journey to healing.

I tend to learn about myself by what you post about your journey. The words you've been sharing about the shame that befalls us, have given me a lot of great nuggets for my own meditations and readings. Thank you for being so open in your journal. It helps me too.

I don't have much to add, but I hope this virtual hug gives you some warmth.

:bighug:

Your friend, PC.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 22, 2024, 11:20:24 AM
Thank you PC  :bighug: Thank you for being here and being a friend. It does bring comfort to know that there's someone else who has been through a similar journey.

There's a couple things coming up that I wanted to write about. 1) I think one of the biggest forces driving my behaviour is the idea that relationships mean that someone wants something from me, and distancing myself from people because of "control," that I cannot be an autonomous person around people. That I think they will want to put something on me, want something from me etc and I feel powerless. Therefore, it's better to keep some distance. I am wondering if this came to me and is something I learned watching other people in the family because they had it done to them. Ie my m and gm's relationships with men, that they tried to control them. These are my expectations too and I think I'm trying to change that view, that there can be something else. I don't have to "fight" relationships and people can respect my needs.

2) I never had a healthy way of doing things modelled for me with regards to big life events like buying house or car without some sort of control (my gf not agreeing to something because he didn't like the terms etc even if it made sense financially business wise; my m refusing to cosign a mortgage because it would be for me and my sf wouldn't allow it). The last one in really tough. I know there are a lot of people that don't have help from their family because they're not able to help, but to have them not help as a form of punishment, or because it's something about me, hits very differently. Of course too, he had been doing similar things since I was 7/8. I can understand my mistrust, and level of anger/anxiety over being "controlled." I guess I also very much understand the want/need to be able to do things on my own as a form of safety and protection. I also think that not engaging, or doing these things (aspiring to them too), is a way of not having to deal with the feelings coming up around them.

However, I think the sad (?) thing is is that I've also found people in my life who want to model my sf's behaviour and where I feel again, that part of me is listening to people who are trying to tell me there is something wrong with me. I think my m too, and gf, participated in this behaviour albeit in sometimes more covert ways. Gf was probably an original model for it.

It would be interesting to think what/who is/was behind the 7/8 year old who doesn't have to believe those things about herself. It would be interesting to think too, that she will not be punished for being that person.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on January 22, 2024, 01:26:48 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on January 22, 2024, 11:20:24 AMThat I think they will want to put something on me, want something from me etc and I feel powerless. Therefore, it's better to keep some distance.

This resonates so much. I find it so hard to say "no" that I would rather not be put in that position. In my case it comes from not having been able to say "no" to my mother as a child. I was made to believe that bad things would happen if I said no, and indeed bad things did happen to the best of her ability. At the very least she was hurt and upset by any recalcitrance which meant I had failed in my job to keep her happy. I could then beat myself up and she didn't have to bother.

The problem with allowing people to respect our needs, I find, is that in order to respect them the needs have to be revealed and we have to be prepared to protect them by saying "no" if necessary. I've been doing that a bit, recently, and the sky has not fallen if I have said "no". Not even when I have said "no" to FOO demands. But it is emotionally such terribly hard and stressful work to say "no" that I fear it will take a very, very long time to build new neural pathways around that word. Ugh.

This is all becoming rather too much about me when all I really meant to do was say point 1 of your post particularly resonates with me.

I am sorry you were punished for being you when you were younger. But you can protect that little girl now.  :grouphug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 23, 2024, 09:47:53 AM
Quote from: NarcKiddo on January 22, 2024, 01:26:48 PMThe problem with allowing people to respect our needs, I find, is that in order to respect them the needs have to be revealed and we have to be prepared to protect them by saying "no" if necessary. I've been doing that a bit, recently, and the sky has not fallen if I have said "no". Not even when I have said "no" to FOO demands. But it is emotionally such terribly hard and stressful work to say "no" that I fear it will take a very, very long time to build new neural pathways around that word. Ugh.


Thank you NK and I hear what you're saying. Part of my mantra when I'm around other people and feeling overwhelmed is saying no repeatedly, that whatever it is, I'm not taking it on and I do find that helpful. I guess it's the part of the brain that's before that state that I struggle to understand and break through to sometimes. I think it's the programmed part of me from a very young age who's responsibility it was to meet everyone's needs and make them feel better. It's like I can read body language and if someone's in distress, I do feel empathy for what they're going through (I think). Or like, that person seems insecure about something, I want to offer kindness. It's such an automatic and under the radar reaction.

When it gets complicated is if I don't do that and unpacking that I'm not a selfish or bad person for doing so. I think this is an automatic reaction as well. That person feels uncomfortable now, I must have done the wrong thing. And, if that person doesn't come back from that, if they don't respect a boundary, then there is a loss I guess. For example, in dating I guess there is a part that attaches, or thinks that maybe this acceptance means I'm not the person I was told I was, and when that is taken away, I'm left with the original feelings. However, because of how deep the wound is, I think a lot of this is buried. I mean I guess surface wise, I know that people need to get to know each other and it doesn't always work out, but I think there's another part active. It's either they want something from me, or are they going to be safe, which I think is this idea (maybe fantasy of what I didn't get growing up?).  There is another part that is willing to be giving and open (though I also don't think this part is respecting my boundaries (?), or blocking out information about who people are, what they have done -nothing dire most times, just who they are as people ie angry etc) because I have to see the "rosy" picture, or it's my responsibility to take that on. There is no other alternative to this. I think this is a very deep part and likely dissociated. Kind of like what came up the other day about my gm, that any other idea of her other than being a loving person was shot, or guilted, down.

I think part of my modus perandii is to not create any waves. I always try to be as waveless as possible because I don't want to stand out, I don't want an opinion that I have to defend. But also the crazy thing is is that I am very much opinionated and am willing to go out on a limb with things. Though maybe for ideas and not with people if that makes sense? Hmmmm I think I may have just unearthed some oppositional parts (can't remember the exact IFS term right now edit: polarized parts). So, thank you for response and helping me work this out  :hug:

(the other thing that's interesting is that I think on some level I'm aware that this is going on with other people and feel some level of shame (?) in going through it around them. For example, with romantic interests. I would love to not put any of this on other people and to deal with it "on my own," but I guess some part of me is involving them and "putting them through the ringer" because I feel like they want something from me. Also, of course is how do we vet people when we were never allowed to have boundarie?

____________________

Kind of along the lines from above but I did a larger macro dose the other day, which I haven't done in about a year. I felt quite sleepy (though didn't sleep the night before very well which has been happening recently), but also felt good. I had a feeling of all of "me" and how much I need to control (though I don't know if that's the exact way to put it) and all the negative self belief/anxiety, but underneath there was something solid (though dark/unknown) and strong. I was thanking my protector parts and wanting to connect to this other part, trying to bring this underlying part out more. I dreamt that night I was in a room, scraping layer of old plaster off the wall and wallpaper too. I said about the wallpaper that it will be difficult to get off. When I looked up taking down wallpaper in the dream dictionary, it said "beginning to let your guard down; revealing aspects of yourself that have been well hidden." I guess it would be interesting to think that those aspects of myself that have been well hidden are not bad (parts).

____________________

I also had an interaction with someone yesterday where I felt like I was being challenged (in my mind unfairly so). What I noticed was that it brought up a freeze response (like what did I do wrong, what have I done), but I could also see (I think) that it linked back to what I spoke about before with my sf and how his behaviour made me feel, and all of a sudden I am back in that place (having to stand up to people). I guess this time I'm not in that place, and the adult me can say that that person's behaviour is not about me and I don't need to react (or feel the same) as before.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on January 23, 2024, 12:01:41 PM
I could have written so much of that myself!

The wallpaper dream is interesting. My hunch is that the hidden parts are not bad parts. Partly because (and I know very little about IFS theory, so I am winging it here) I don't think any parts are bad per se. They have developed for a reason and they react according to that. They may now be unhelpful or even harmful to us, but at one point they were needed. However what I really suspect about hidden parts is that they are probably good and almost certainly very vulnerable (or make other parts more vulnerable), which is why they are hidden away. For instance, you mention the part that likes to be giving and open but in the process does not respect your boundaries.

I'm glad to read that adult you can stand firm and say other people's behaviour is theirs. And that you can recognise where your initial response is coming from, which means you can consider how you want to behave rather than just being a victim of the knee jerk emotional response. Good for you!
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on January 24, 2024, 09:06:36 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I am hoping to come back and read what you've written - because I see you've written quite a few things that I relate to - and I want to digest what you wrote.  I've only skim read what you wrote this time, but hope to pop back and read properly. 

Sending you a hug too  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 24, 2024, 10:38:59 AM
Thanks NK - I'm glad you could related to what I wrote. Parts are an interesting one and while I totally agree that there are no bad parts, there is also a question of who's parts are they? Something I've come to realize is that legacy burdens are parts that are not yours that you (or a part of you) has agreed (or perhaps needed to out of safety which is a form of agreement) to take on in some facet. So, for example, 70% of the part could be someone else's, and passed down through the line (ie generational trauma/beliefs etc). For me, it has been a process I think of understanding that there is dissociation around parts sometimes, maybe partially in the form of allowing myself to even believe that the things I am experiencing/feeling are true (when I have had my reality "corrected" so often growing up), and then beginning to understand the parts and where they come from, and then finding the ability to connect to them (perhaps some dissociation here as well though I think it's related to being "allowed" to believe they are true).

As for the part that "likes" to be giving and open (people pleasing behaviour I think), I think it's perhaps related to a very young part that was conditioned to behave like that and likely does so out of safety. For me, it's behaviour that is difficult to access and "control." It's like a switch flips and becomes hard to settle around people that I feel are "selfish," for example. I feel that people also take my "niceness" for weakness and just perpetuates the cycle of being hyperaroused, feeling in danger, feeling the need to protect myself and then feeling like I did something wrong/am not nice etc. It's also interesting that apparently our primitive brain is wired for connection and a sense of loss of connection is perceived as a threat to survival (when we needed groups to survive; and likely a mother to depend on as an infant). Anyways, I'm rambling.

Thank you Hope  :hug:  Yes, I have written a lot haha. Had the need to work some things out. These are just my thoughts though. Sometimes it's just helpful to put what's going on out into the ether.

So, I had a though yesterday about having to show someone that I was bullied growing up and it brought up a lot of shame. It brought up tears, but I think it's shame behind those. Just a feeling of I don't want to show people, or be vulnerable and have to tell someone about that. I think, to even write it on here, feels quite "exposing." When my sf would treat me a certain way, my m would say don't show him that it bothers you, or something to that effect. I think it has been the toughen up/lock it away method around certain things since then.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 27, 2024, 05:38:27 PM
Dolly,

I think a bit the same way as you. Authors who write the books like It Didn't Start with You, and a good number of spiritual and psychological experts corroborate that we are sometimes home to some leftover parts from our ancestors. Sometimes when I'm exploring my own IFS population, I start to think there are possibly hundreds of them in there. At least sometimes it feels that way. And I even explore the notion to ask, "Am I sharing parts with anyone else?" It sounds crazy to me, but I think it's always okay to at least ask the non-traditional questions.

I have had a few instances during therapy with my DBT therapist, when I hear what sounds like large groups of IFS parts screaming in my head when I get too close to a memory that I normally avoid. It sounds like an amusement park where a hundred people are screaming from the roller coaster area.

I don't know if anyone has ever commented on how many parts we can have, but it would be interesting to hear some expert thoughts on that.

I'm good at accessing my fawn parts now. Fawning and being a people-pleaser was my go-to protection mechanism for my whole life. I guess I still do it today, but I'm kind of getting a little bit of control over it. It still happens though. It's sort of like being held-up by a mugger. If someone threatens me I first look for a way to make them like me before I'll defend myself.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 28, 2024, 12:48:57 PM
Thanks PC  :hug:  There is a list of questions that Ann L. Sinko asks parts to help define if they are legacy burdens or not. These are from Innovations and Elaborations in Internal Family Systems Therapy:

Table 10.1 Client Statements That Indicate a Possible Legacy Burden
• My mother (father, grandmother, etc.) had this too.
• It's always been with me.
• I will be bad, if I don't... (caretake, accommodate, be nice, follow the rules, etc.)
• It's unsafe to shine.
• I always knew it wouldn't be okay for me to get too big for my britches.

Table 10.2 Questions to Ask to Identify a Legacy Burden
• Does the severity of your symptom fit with your life experiences?
• Do your symptoms make sense to you?
• Do you feel like this energy belongs to you and you alone?
• When did you start to believe this? (If the answer is always, keep an ear out for a legacy burden.)

Innovations and Elaborations in Internal Family Systems Therapy (pp. 166-167). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.

I resonated with some of these when I met a part before. It just didn't feel like mine. However, I can see aspects of me that are also in this part, but I don't think it's mine. Listening to one of Bob Falconer's talks, he's described people with hundreds of parts (if I'm remembering correctly) where they had them all in a safe place on the beach and would go the beach during morning meditation and ask, "does anyone need attention," and access their parts that way. I had, maybe let's call it a fear, that I had numerous, endless parts and perhaps it was overwhelming, or I thought that I was doing something wrong, or probably more likely, that I was wrong because I might have all these parts. However, I can see that this is maybe a skeptical, controlling, or judgemental type part at work who is maybe worried about perfectionism etc. If I have hundreds of parts, I have hundreds of parts. But this is just my experience.

I didn't also understand my dissociated parts either when I first met them, but vividly remember the feeling as if there were "layers" of parts, but this is something different.

It's funny you mention groups of loud parts screaming because I felt that the other day when I thought about dating again, and like you mention, I think it was because I was getting close to something. That the shame I have been feeling in relation to intimacy and dating is closer to the surface and that experience would bring it up.

I am reluctant to say that the people pleasing parts are fawning parts because they feel much closer to freeze than fawn under the surface. For example, the part freezes first because it feels it's in danger, and then perhaps tries to correct the situation by being "nice." Though I can understand how it might be taken for a fawn part, I don't think it's the underlying motive if that makes sense. For me, it's as if something is frozen in the first place and unable to react. I think it's probably a very young part.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on January 28, 2024, 01:05:52 PM
Your final paragraph is very interesting and gives lots of food for thought. I suppose I have always thought that people pleasing = fawn, but once one considers the underlying motive I think my response is also born out of freeze. The motive is protection and (in my case too) it stems from a very young age. At that age fight or flight were simply not available options. Actually playing dead, as it were, in a total freeze response was also not an option, but I think I essentially froze, in that I froze myself and anything I might want or need. The focus was then on the appeasement. But I don't think I ever wanted her to do anything other than stop being horrid. I don't have any memory of wanting cuddles or her brand of love (though I must have at some stage, I suppose).

The legacy burden is also a fascinating area, since so much trauma goes back for generations.

Thanks for discussing these aspects. I know that the purpose of a journal is not to be an interesting read for others as such, but yours is.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on January 29, 2024, 04:48:14 PM
Dolly, I have to agree with NK about how your journal entries are interesting reads. Your research into these IFS parts has been a key driver in my learning to explore my own IFS parts.

Thank you for sharing so openly about it.

And as for dating, whoo-boy! For me, dating is 90% trust, and 10% everything else. Nothing will ignite the screaming in my IFS community like fears of knowing how and when and who to trust.

I hope that when you reach the point where dating begins, that everything you've been learning through therapy and research will get its chance to practice in a newer and more positive way. You know more now than you did in the past. Maybe when you start dating again, all that you've learned about IFS Parts will make for a better experience than when you were less educated on spotting your triggers and parts.

I often find comfort in Maya Angelou's words, "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." This quote always helps me to forgive my own past struggles and gives me confidence that maybe I know enough now that I actually will have a better experience going forward.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on January 30, 2024, 12:04:19 PM
Thanks guys - I learned a lot about IFS when I first joined the forum from reading other peoples' journals (Hope, Snowdrop and Owl), and it inspired me to look into it and try it, even if I didn't fully understand everything that was happening. I'm glad to pay it forward and continue the "tradition." We're all helping one another learn about ourselves.

NK - I think that rings true for me, and that as a baby I couldn't fight, or flight so froze instead. I don't thikn the fawning came until later. I'm also leaning towards an identity issue. That when I have that feeling of closeness, or perceived closeness (ie someone wanting to get to know me etc), I think my immediate reaction is that I won't have space for myself. I won't be allowed my identity, which perhaps as a baby, felt like death or annihilation. So, there is a panic that someone wants something from me (I can't be myself and therefore it's like a death). I really wish there was more about fearful avoidant attachment out there. Maybe I just haven't found it yet. When looking up books on FA recently, someone suggested Healing Developmental Trauma. I may have to go back to that.

For myself, I think it would be useful to notice when these feelings come up and to try ask the parts to step back for Self a bit. It can be quite zero to 60 with emotional reactions, but I'm noticing little improvements I think.

Thank you PC - It's really tricky. I guess the best I can do is show up for myself and your Maya Angelou quote illustrates that perfectly. I don't know sometimes what trust is I think. I have in the past not trusted myself and the information I received about someone only to be disappointed later, by "trusting" in the person to be as open or forthcoming as me. I guess it's the delicate balance of allowing myself to take up space and ask questions (fearing that rejection/that things won't work out and realizing it doesn't have anything to do with me being a "bad"person etc) when things don't feel right. I also don't want to be the Spanish Inquisition either and allow people the benefit of the doubt. It's also really hard because ideally someone would understand, and give you space /let you figure things out, but people have their own working parts too. So, yeah whoo-boy!

Thanks for listening and responding though. I appreciate that what I am going through resonates with people.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 01, 2024, 04:52:59 PM
Dolly,

In reading what you responded to NK about how as a baby, you couldn't fight, I am quite sure that is absolutely true.

According to Van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, our trust issues begin as infants. We are born with a survival instinct. We are biologically wired to rely on our "herd" or "family" to protect us while we're too small to protect ourselves. Our survival instinct is to cry, which was designed to bring mom and dad to our rescue. That's how we're originally wired to survive. In a perfect world, our protectors respond to our cries by holding us when we're scared, feeding us when we're hungry, and protecting us from predators and natural dangers. But for those of us who cried at a week old and were left to cry until we just gave up, that's when we began to learn that our instinctive survival wiring didn't work as designed.

So, we began our journeys to finding alternate "workaround" ways to trust ourselves instead of our protectors. (Or even how to protect ourselves from our protectors). Some of those alternative ways of protecting ourselves aren't serving us anymore. So now we need IFS therapy to try and fix that.

I've been meditating on trust a lot lately, and I'm beginning to see that trust, by itself, isn't the issue for me, but the feeling of being safe is where my life's trust issues live. I don't care if I distrust someone who can't hurt me. But if I distrust someone who CAN hurt me, that's when my feeling of not being safe confuses my trust issues. In reality, no one can be trusted at 100%. Everyone lies or makes mistakes, and becomes, by definition, untrustworthy. So, for me, learning how to feel safe around myself, and around my own thoughts and around other people, is how I need to build up my ability to learn better who and how to trust.

Naturally, I don't know if what works for me is right for you too, but I figure if I at least share my thoughts, maybe some of what I say can help. I sometimes think I'm just one hungry creature telling another hungry creature where I found food. Your posts help me, so I hope that I can return the favor by sharing my reactions in return.

My T repeatedly coaches me to just hold my IFS Parts and to be the parent they are still crying out for. I don't always have to understand the part's thoughts or motives, but by just saying, "I've got you," and really allowing myself to just hold them the way an infant wants to be held by their parent, brings some of my parts to merge in with me better. That's trust that I'm building within my own parts. As more and more of my parts get held when they cry, the parts feel safer with me, and as a result, my own lifelong trust issues begin to grow beyond my skin. I still have a ways to go. But I'm making progress.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 01, 2024, 06:49:58 PM
 :hug: to you Dollyvee.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 04, 2024, 11:35:09 AM
Thank you PC & Hope  :hug:

PC, I think that's a good point that no one is perfect and it's about how we trust in ourselves if someone lets you down that you will be able to cope, and that it's not a reflection on you. I think I was expected to "know" things and to not make mistakes, but we can't ever fully be sure that someone won't let us down, or let's say cheat/leave us in a relationship (or whatever ignites our abandonment trauma). What's more important is our trust in ourselves that we will be ok if it ever does. It's such a deep (young) reaction that I think it takes so much time (and trust) to begin to step back and process it.

Your post also made me think of the Ideal Parent meditation by Dan Brown that I bookmarked ages ago, but never got around to watching. I think maybe I was vaguely aware of the feelings it would bring up and just blocked it out. Or, as happens, it left me with a sense of being "angry." I think I also felt like I didn't know what ideal parents would look like (or maybe it was a sense of feeling like I didn't deserve that, or like it would never happen anyway). I went back and watched it today, and there were a lot of tears, but I feel like the awareness that has come up around shame recently has helped a lot, and it didn't feel as fuzzy. There was some anger (?) or maybe uneasiness around attunement as I think people (gm) probably attuned to me but it was with an agenda. So, there is a lot of protectiveness about someone being aware of my internal state because they might somehow use it against me, but at least there's an awareness of (somewhat fuzzy) people who wouldn't do something like that. I think I will watch it a few times.

If anyone else is interested this is the meditation here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2au4jtL0O4

He's an interesting guy and has done a lot of work with SA survivors and proving the false memory theory to be false I believe at trials ( :cheer: ). He's also wrote a book on the A-Tri meditation cycle which is interesting to me.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 04, 2024, 07:44:25 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Sending you support for having just watched what sounds like a very powerful meditation - it's great that you felt that awareness around shame and that it helped a lot.  I am intrigued now to watch the meditation myself, so I'm thankful you've put a link to it.  Maybe I'll take a look in the coming days. 

I am also interested that Dan Brown has proved the false memory theory re: SA survivors, to be false.  That sounds really great work.

Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 04, 2024, 11:01:11 PM
Thank you Hope  :hug:

Sometimes I forget how much good information there is that is actually meant to help us. (My attachment system says yeah there are people that want to help  :cheer: )

I thought I posted this but can't see a reference to it in a search, but if anyone is interested this is an interview with Dan Brown from Therapist Uncensored who I quite like.

https://therapistuncensored.com/episodes/tu157-treating-complex-trauma-and-attachment-with-guest-dr-daniel-brown-replay/

"We are very excited to resurface this episode this week as it is one of our most popular, and it is rich with great content. Follow along as Sue takes a deep dive with Dr. Daniel Brown into complex traumas, the myths behind false memories, and the 3 essential ingredients of effective treatment for many clinical issues. Dr. Brown has been an expert witness in over 200 child sexual abuse cases, and is also known for his work at the International War Crimes Tribunal for his role in developing a standard of evidence for victims of war atrocities. Learn more about how treatment from an attachment perspective can lead to significant and long-term healing."

I also had a look for Healing Developmental Trauma which someone on another forum had recommended for fearful avoidant reading. It was in my to sell/give away pile and the receipt said I bought it 9 years ago and it's just the thing I have been talking about in my journal about infants born into freeze. This is the connection survival style. I guess sometimes things take time to understand and be ready for.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 06, 2024, 11:56:19 AM
I think it's taken me nine years of work to begin to understand how the things in this book relate to me.

Some notes/things that stand out and I can see in me and relating to the connection survival adaptation.

p239 "establishing trust: she carefully tracked my responses and reacted to any misattunement on my part with despair and shame...I was repeatedly reminded how mother and infant co-regulate their emotional arousal, influenced and being influenced by each other's changing behaviour. Neurologically, signals between a mother and child pass back and forth between each other at amazing speeds, and it has been shown that mother and infant, in response to each other's facial expressions, show sympathetic cardiac acceleration and parasympathetic deceleration.

With Emma, who, like a baby, sensed every affective nuance of relational attunement or misattunement implicitly in her body, I had to be emotionally present and genuine. She needed consistent demonstration of my trustworthiness and capacity for empathetic attunement.

Hypervigilance is experienced like a baby's bond with its mother, constantly tracking peoples' emotional responses looking for "danger" (inauthenticity, misattunement, evidence of distrust). Like Papa Coco mentioned, no one is perfect and there will be moments of misattunement in a relationship. People can help co-regulate our emotions, but they are also not our parents. I guess it's helpful to know what a young response this is and how long I have been doing it.

p239 "She frequently expressed how important it was that I take her seriously, meaning that I not pathologize her. She felt that a diagnosis would strip her of her dignity and show "one up-manship"on my part, proving that I discounted her experience on a fundamental level. She wanted to be seen as person of value and was both terrified and infuriated by the possibility of being put in a diagnostic box."

This sounds quite close, if not almost verbatim, to what I experienced when I first started therapy. I think there is also the underlying feeling of disconnection and holding back because people have not related in the past, wanted to judge me, or when I felt like I wouldn't be seen etc

P240 (parphrasing) parental attunement helps name/untangle a child's non verbal state. Without this attunement and "without words to mentalize the physical experience, unnamed, overwhelming emotions and sensations remain in the body and its. organs and are expressed as psychosomatic symptoms."

"When children miss their developmental markers at the sensory-motor level, the physiological foundation is not at a place to support the emergence of their emotional and relational capacities...Without the necessary sensory-motor skills, children have a diminished capacity to respond, the demands of the environment cause greater stress, and they cannot keep up with other children. More importantly, they often lack the key defensive reflexes that would allow them to adequately protect themselves, and they are more vulnerable. As a result, children who sense their vulnerability will scapegoat and attack them.

Emphasis in bold is the story of my life. This is an underestanding of the process that led me to feel like that and be in that position, and that I'm not "crazy" and it wasn't all in my head. I was treated a certain way (and still am to a certain extent - gym & work) because of how I was treated as a baby. I think my sf probably picked up on this, and my m too, though it initially came from her (probably because she had a similar experience.

Another core tenet of a connection survival strategy is a sense of impending doom/that something bad is going to happen, and as the book mentions, it's because something already had. I know this was also reinforced in the family, that you can't trust anyone, and "the world just doesn't work like that" (when thinking of something good but don't have a specific example). So, I think there is a legacy of this and becomes a bit blurry trying to pick out what is mine etc. But I notice it in me regarding relationships etc. A slight reaction from someone means that he's not interested and it's all over; that it's never going to work out etc.

p140 "When early life experience is traumatic, the trauma lives on in the form of on-going high arousal states in the nervous system. Unresolved high arousal becomesthe source of a relentless, nameless dread, a continuing sense of impending doom that never gets resolved"

"adults who develop the Connection Survival Style are engaged in a lifelong struggle, conscious or unconscious, to manage their high levels of arousal. They struggle with dissociative responses that disconenct them from their body, with their vulnerability of energetic boundary rupture, and they psychological and physiological dysregulation that accompanies such struggles"

I'll come back to this because there is an interesting idea about internalized rage (when one could not rage against the primary caregivers as it was unsafe), so it makes one feel powerless. The Connection Survival Style is also characterized as the beginning of our identity, which I thought was interesting.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 07, 2024, 12:48:40 PM
Am thinking about a core facet of the Connection Survival Style which is lack of "aliveness." Sometimes I become aware of how compartmentalized my life is. I do things, have a job, basic plan for success with that job (like how can I continually get work, what do I need to do for that), but I'm never thinking about the next step like what do I want out of life? What do I want out of my career? It's maybe more focused on accomplishing things. John Bradshaw descibes toxic shame as being locked in a sense of doing, that we are a "doing" rather than a "being."

I have a place that I live, but it's kind of on a survival level to an extent. Sort of like the meme, a man will live like this and see no problem/be happy. Once in a while I will buy something for decoration etc, but it's not like I'm making something my "own." I guess there is a part of me that feels, what is the point? Though I don't know if I ever consciously voice that. It's only been the past few weeks (maybe months?) that I have had an urge to "nest," and started thinking things like these sheets are terrible, I really need new ones (because I've had the for 8 years)

One thing I think the book is making clear is that I think there's a form of dissociation, or maybe chronic dissociation, going on from a very young age. What I find tricky is how can you even be aware that you are dissociating when it's been such a large, and hidden, part of your life? I remembered the feeling/thing I was shown/memory when dealing with another romantic interest last February where, half asleep, I saw myself helping a little girl (infant/toddler?) through a change room at my old pool. I felt very maternal, protective, helping her. When I became conscious that this was the change room in my old pool, where I'm pretty sure my m said I learned to swim as a baby, I became anxious and worried if I was able to take care of this little girl. At the time, I had no idea that there was another, maybe dissociated part that was coming up, pushing someone away (or how it felt with the romantic interest - that on one hand, I want a relationship, but on the other, something stops it). Maybe the part that became conscious was how the little girl (me) felt at the time, and worries that taking care of another person is too much if I don't know how to take care of myself. At the time I also wondered if this was generational, and if I was picking up on my m's and gm's feeling that they didn't think they could take care of me.

I guess relationships are about co-regulation and someone is not going to magically not have any needs and help you heal your self-esteem. You also need to be present to "take care of their needs" (in a non-codependent way) at times. I watched a good video by Heidi Priebe about toxic shame and limerance today where she talks about this. She also says that we cannot [heal our self-esteem] if we are chronically dissociating from [the things inside us that we find disgusting and wrong] and living in a world of fantasy connection. It just feels tricky I guess when you're dissisociating on such a fundemental level for so long. I guess it becomes about finding a way to regulate that anxiety/terror. And/or showing those parts that you can be maternal/take care of things.

Another thing about this chronic dissociation, that I think Narckiddo touched on, is not being aware that I have any needs on some level. Like with buying new sheets, it's not really a life and death need, so is it really a need? Can I have something beyond life and death? Sometimes it feels like a perpetual not knowing what I want (and I guess not knowing myself because I was never allowed/didn't have a chance to). When other people come into the mix it becomes more complicated too. Like how can I say I feel tired, I don't want to do something and it means not showing up for this person (ie if they need me to help coregulate let's say). I think I've been doing such small things like that for a long time for people, that it's second nature, and I become unsure of what my needs are, or dissociated from them, because it might mean that I will lose my attachment figure as I probably did in the past. Not 100% sure if this falls under the chronic dissociation umbrella though, but probably goes back to the same time as a baby where there were issues with needing things. Also, similar to what Papa Coco mentioned I think, that crying as a baby, having a need, wasn't soothed for example.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 09, 2024, 12:12:21 PM
I watched another Heidi Priebe video where she does a good job of summarizing toxic shame. For anyone intrested, this is the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxBm9r2tpyY

There's a couple things that stuck out. First is that emotions are shamed and it becomes about "I am wrong, bad" because these emotions are wrong/bad as it mentioned in the Healing Developmental Trauma book. However, what I think is so different, or alien to my understanding, is that "secure" people experience the full range of emotions throughout the day, every day. Their parent/caregiver was able to mirror those emotions back to them, help them name them, and give coping strategies and advice for what to do with them (ie that sounds like sadness you're feeling. Sometimes when people are sad, they cry and it helps them grieve and feel better). If you weren't allowed to feel that emotion because our own parent/careegiver was dysregulated, or not able to deal with their own emotions, whenever sadness, or anger in my case, pops up, we understand that it is "bad" and then becomes covered in shame, which is where we feel bad for feeling that thing. So, it stays in our system and we're not able to regulate it. (I think this is the chronic impending doom for example in the HFCT book).

What's interesting too, is when she talks about complex shame binds where the emotion we were feeling was not only shamed, but then labelled as something else. This is where I think things get a bit tricky for me emotionally at times. For example, when you were angry your parent could have told you to stop being selfish (I think perhaps in my case there was a sense that any emotion was selfish as it wasn't supporting NPD family members). So, when you are angry you now do things to sooth what you know as selfish. I have been bad (angry) and hurt that other person, so I will stop being selfish and give to them. However, she says that this maladaptive coping strategy likely had the opposite effect and brought more of this energy into my life that caused me to get angry in the first place. Anger is generally a warning that your boundaries are being crossed, and taking responsibility instead of setting boundaries is going to not make you feel better. So, we push down the feelings of distress and feel chronically dysregulated, but not sure why we're feeling dysregulated because we did the thing we were told was going to soothe the emotion.

I want to bang out that last part with a drum haha because I think that's so much of why I felt crazy growing up. I was doing the thing that people loved me (who I understood to love me) wanted me to do and it only made me feel worse. Setting boundaries also made them upset and me feel bad for doing it. We then find ways to comfort and self-sooth that which we can't name and don't understand what's going on inside us for example through food (I do this but it feels very unconscious). Our ways of coping and self-soothing then create a shame double bind because these are things that we don't want other people to see (because secure people don't regulate like that and wouldn't understand), or we don't like the way our body feels when we have been eating/drinking, or another one for me, our bank accounts when we have been shopping.

We then go through a process of isolating instead of co-regulating when we feel these things come up, we feel like "our emotions don't make any sense, and if I tried to show someone what was up for me, I would probably be shamed even further because my behaviour doesn't make sense, and then I would be labelled as weak etc."

The second thing that sort of stood out or kept popping up was, how did I deal with this as a baby?/how do babies deal with this? For example, if I get upset as a baby, or shut down and freeze, because I feel like I don't have any energetic boundaries, how does shame manifest for me? What did I do to deal with it - just shut down? It's not like babies can set boundaries or tell people no, that doesn't come until you're a toddler. So, how can I begin to show people an authentic self when nothing has made sense for a long time? Yes, I feel like I've developed a very good false self who can be kind and empathetic, but also falls apart (in the sense that these buried emotions which are unnamed etc come up) when people come close and then need to self-isolate to begin to regulate them. I guess by understanding (and writing out this process) it helps me be aware of what is going on, and what's coming up maybe feels so scary because that's how it felt as a baby or small child (??).

She talks about taking our inner critic offline as much as possible and to begin to look at yourself as a person that makes sense. We learned that our feelings don't make sense, or to suppress some things, to fit into an early caregiving environment.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on February 09, 2024, 01:06:43 PM
I know next to nothing about babies, never having had any myself. But from what I have read, I think babies probably cannot feel shame during the early years. They do not have the cognitive capacity. They don't understand things outside themselves - hence why they can't understand why someone might have a different point of view, or things might be happening in the outside world that they cannot see.

However, I am pretty sure they know how vulnerable they are and that they must look to a caregiver for literally every need they have. I think that if they cry out because they have a need, and that need is not met, they quickly realise the caregiver is not reliable and they cannot be sure of having any needs met. I suppose that to a baby every need is equally important, so if a caregiver is unreliable in dealing with one need it probably follows to the baby that there is no guarantee any need will be met. That means death and the baby must do whatever is in its power to get needs met. Silence may have better results because the carer does not get so angry if the baby is not screaming. Or the baby may simply resort to shutting down because expending energy in screaming is pointless if the need is not met.

I am working a lot with my T at the moment on feelings which seem to be replicating how I must have felt as an infant. It is quite interesting because I have very few early memories (before age 6 when everything went to * and I remember more than I care to) and of course I don't remember being a baby. I have had to piece together what it must have been like from what I know of my mother and what little I have been told. This has always slightly worried me, because I wonder if I am just making it up. But my mother is currently exhibiting very reprehensible attitudes and behaviours around relatives who are vulnerable because they are sick. This is making me very upset, far more so than is logically warranted. I have come to the conclusion, with my T, that this is bringing up feelings I have had before. I will probably journal these myself but I wanted to mention it here because it fits in very much with what you have written.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on February 09, 2024, 03:02:27 PM
Thanks Dolly. Your bolded aha insight makes so much sense to me in a family dominated by personality disorders and although I never thought about it it rings very true for me to, that we learned to soothe the other's emotion when we felt bad instead of ours. Hence yes obsessive caretaking and doing for others and then feeling worse and worse. Explode-y was how I labeled it. Because there are so many emotions mixed up at once. Thanks for these insights and links.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 11, 2024, 10:03:25 PM
Thank you Nk and Armee.

I think what I'm trying to understand, or comprehend, is how this stuff I experienced as a baby manifests for me now because underneath it all, I think some of my core emotional reactions are stemming from there. I agree that babies can't feel shame, or don't cognitively know that "I am bad" yet. Though I wonder if it is the beginning of that feeling somehow when we're not responded to, or receive misattunement. I guess the anxiety I felt as I became conscious that I was the little girl in "memory" I had at the pool is probably pretty close to how it might manifest. Just a kind of panic/high alert.

I discussed the book with t and she said it looks like you were ready (to hear? I can't remember the exact phrase) this. I guess it's taken me time to seperate from my emotions and be able to have some space from my dysregulation, but I don't know if it's like I've cognitively/consciously come to this place. I feel like this stuff (these emotions and anxiety) are very much frozen and only come into consciousness through specific interactions, like romantic interests.

I don't know if could willingly access these things to work on them. It's like in that memory, they flash into consciousness and then a brief moment of anxiety, and then I guess I dissociate them, or they're gone. I know t has talked about things like preverbal trauma for years, but it's like I could only grasp them after it I read it in the book and it made sense rationally. The connection survival type is disconnected from their body/feelings and "tend to relate to others in an  intellectual rather than feeling manner." I feel like maybe things are blocked off unless they come through the rational filter, or am in that mind. She talked about feeling things in the body and it made me uncomfortable. I think it's going to bring up issues of being gaslit in my family when I talked about things before that I wasn't comfortable with. It was always, it's not that bad why are you making such a big deal out of it (ie your feelings are not valid). The thinking mind is also not overwhelming and I don't want to not be able to function.

Anyways, some thoughts for Sunday that have been kicking around the past couple days
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Armee on February 11, 2024, 10:23:20 PM
I also wanted to thank you for the links to Dan Brown. My therapist has slowly been introducing me to the ideal parent protocol and had sent Dan Brown doing that video meditation version. The bells he used made me jumpy so I stopped but may work up the nerve to try again. And I enjoyed the interview podcast you posted.

In a way I can't help but think maybe babies can feel shame. If you are a baby and cry and need food or a changing and your parent comes and is quite noticeably upset that you have needed something I can't help but imagine that shame would be learned pretty quickly from a few interactions like that.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 12, 2024, 12:56:40 PM
 :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 14, 2024, 10:14:58 AM
Thank you Armee and Hope

I've had a whole thing here that I wrote about the sessions in the HFDT book that have disappeared. I will repost  when I have more time but it's been very powerful stuff to read.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on February 14, 2024, 12:44:11 PM
 :wave:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 15, 2024, 07:07:03 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
How annoying that you lost what you wrote, and I hope that you are able to re-write it again, should you wish to do so.  I wanted to say that I related to what you said about how you'd been working for 9 years and then feeling you can process and take in stuff now - I very much feel the same - I have read some books about a similar time ago, but haven't really felt that the content has been as meaningful - but currently, I feel like I am able to take more of it and process it more. 

I was looking in your journal for the author of the book you mentioned, called 'Healing Developmental Trauma' and I can't see the author, despite trying to look - could you let me know who the author is, as I'm interested.

Thanks  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 16, 2024, 09:48:47 AM
Hi again Dollyvee,
Just to let you know that I have found the book you mentioned, and I've ordered it, as it looks really good, and I am intrigued after hearing your enthusiasm for it - it sounds really useful.  Thanks for sharing your experiences with it so far.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 16, 2024, 12:05:23 PM
Thanks Hope  :hug: I'm glad you managed to find the book and hope it will be useful for you. For me, I feel like it's a missing piece. I am very much a fan of IFS, but at the same time, it also felt like there were things going on (in thee body etc) that I couldn't "control." This book does a good job of outlining what those things might be and how they originated.

For example, it talks about how people with the connection survival style are very much "out of their body," and operate from a sort of dissociated rational, or at times, spiritual understanding. When I brought up the book with t and its emphasis on very young/preverbal connection and trauma, and how I related to that and understood it now, she said it was like I was now "ready" for it. However, and I want to go back and explain this to her better, but I don't think it was a matter of being ready for it before. I think it needed to be in a "rational" form (researching for example) for my mind to understand it. It's like the emotional part is cut off, and even if I wanted to access these things, and I feel like I have been very much wanting to, there is a split and it's just not available to. Something similar came up with the Somatic IFS book I was reading where it just didn't make me feel great, and was very much in the body. So, I stopped. There's not a facet that let's me titrate this connection (to body/emotions for example).

A later chapter in the book describes the work happening in sessions between the therapist, Aline, and the client (right word?), Emma. They had been working on expanding Emma's tolerance to build connection and begin to trust Aline, using neuroaffective touch and beginning to name, and open up the emotions Emma was feeling. However, due to a scheduling issue, the work comes to a stop as Emma feels closed and "contracted." What is interesting is that Emma explains, "I know consciously that you haven't done anything wrong, but my body doesn't know it." It's like the body is independent of the conscious mind.

Some nots that I made during the chapter, which I think are significant to me, but not sure how much sense theyy'll make. These are things I identified with about the process:

 - after the connection was broken, Emma angrily condemned herself and wondered how she could have let herself open as much as she did, felt shame that she had allowed herself to care for Aline, and berated herself for being a burden

 - while the connection was inittially developing, Emma felt that it was dangerous to let herself need Aline, and a fear of dependency on her because she could just disappear. "She was terrified that I would drop her if she let herself trust the connection...and wanted reassurance that it was safe to trust the connection"

 - when asked what made her lose her sense of connection previouslyy, Emma explained that, "people freaked out and she ended up taking care of them and their upset; they said it was my fault and that I was too sensitive; they never listened to me." When she tried to talk about the lossof conenction previously, she was attacked for being overely sensitive and demandiing, or too needy" (and weak for me)

 - Aline felt that if there was any chance of the connection to be restored, they "both had to honour what was going on inside her without any time pressure, without any judgement, or preconceived idea of outcome."

- Aline also told Emma, "we don't know what will happen, but I want you to know that I trust your sense of what you need. I trust that you know what is right for yourself, and am open to what you might need from me. I want to remind you that we have an agreement to be truthful about our inner experience."

- Aline also urged Emma to "stay with heer feelings, even if they were feelings of mistrust and disconnection. She could retract and peek out of the corner of her eye and see that I was still there. She needed to feel them and not be rejected for having them."

The bold emphasis is mine. I feel like there's a sense of agency with this approach that is important. It's not something you "should" be doing, or I should feel this way (or I will be rejected if I do etc). Sometimes I feel like t and I butt heads when I'm explaining something (my experience) and I feel like she's maybe trying to direct it in a certain way. On the one hand, I know I'm open to other peoples' ideas etc, but it's like this part of me is adamant about something and I think it's because no one ever said those things to me; that it's ok to trust my own experience etc. The pressure about me needing to be a certain way I think is also very strong, but also subconscious. Around romantic interests, it comes to a point where I consciously understand that I will be ok if they reject me, but something is also frozen and unable to do things for myself because it might bring about a rupture.

This idea of agency is also very important I think. However, I think agency has been confused with selfishness growing up, and the idea of being selfish after being in a narcissistic household gets distorted. T talks about a healthy selfishness, but maybe the idea is healthy agency? Where I have empathetic agency, but also realize it's ok to do things for myself. However, there is also the other end of the spectrum where I do everything on myy own because it feels better that way.

I think this is mostly what was in my missing post. I'm looking forward to bringing this up with t and seeing what she says.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 16, 2024, 05:55:44 PM
Dolly,

I just downloaded the book in my audio program so I can begin listening to it on my long drives or boring housework days. It looks interesting. I'm excited to get started.

I have been trying to find my balance between narcissism and self-love. I assume that is similar to your words of agency versus selfishness.

When I remember that old religious saying, from when I was religious, "Love thy neighbor as thyself" I am now drawn toward the word "as". My narcissistic family, and my narcissistic church experience taught me to love them more than I love myself. But the ancients wrote this sentence with the word "as", not "instead of" or "more than". When the flight attendant tells me to put my mask on before I put one on my seat-mate, they are reminding me that I can do no good for anyone else if I don't respect myself enough to tend to my needs first. First-responders have to keep themselves healthy and strong, otherwise they can't help us when we need them.

I am not saying we "should" love ourselves as we love others, I'm just saying that I'm finally reaching a point where I am starting to see that I have the right to love myself as much as I love my family and friends and neighbors. As for me, I don't learn so good anymore when people use the word "should" on me, but I'm always grateful to those who share what they've learned so I can choose for myself whether I want to know more. So thank you for sharing this book with us.

My new motto is "Together We All Win" and by sharing where we find good info with each other, we're kind of heading toward the finish line together.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 17, 2024, 09:34:14 AM
Thank you PC -

I think it goes beyond just loving myself though I'm sure that's at the root of everything right? When she says, "both had to honour what was going on inside her without any time pressure, without any judgement, or preconceived idea of outcome." This really hit home and was akin to things that came up during energy work. I think growing up there was never any space to just let things unfold, or to do something at my own pace etc because it always had to be done for someone else. While I rationally understand to slow down, and listen to myself, do it at my own pace, it's like something in my body still does not. I guess healing is about helping to build that consciousness around what is actually going on, but it's like, at times, this stuff just happens automatically under the radar, in the background.

TW ~ SA (?)


Over the xmas break with t, I had a third sort of "odd" dream about my gf with tones of nakedness, sexuality etc. I talked about the "loose boundaries" that existed and how, let's say it was never "absolute," there were things that fell under an inappropriate umbrella. Inappropriate is a c**p term. In the JB book they would have fallen under SA I think. Anyways, when  I was sevenish, I remember telling him that I don't like it when he touched my bum as he was coming up behind me on the stairs. This was met with, well it wasn't that bad. Why are you making a big deal out of it, it's not like I really did anything? T said this was gaslighting. What I heard in my family is that I was making a big deal out of nothing, it's not that bad. I feel like the same things happened with how my sf treated me as well. I felt good after talking about this stuff with t even though I had been worried to bring it up.

I keep having these dreams and am starting to realize that I stood in as a romantic liaison (is this the right term?) with my gf. Why would he need to get married when he had his grancdhildren to be there and do things for him?


end TW

I'm still processing this I think. When I switch to "adult consciousness" the idea of it makes me angryy and I think what the heck were you doing? Let the child have her own life, or just gross and too close.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on February 19, 2024, 09:54:24 AM
Hi Dollyvee,
I really related to what you said when you mentioned that "this stuff just happens automatically under the radar, in the background". 

I read what you wrote about SA, and I am glad that your T pointed out the gaslighting behaviour of your family in response to what happened.  The behaviour from your gf and your sf was not right.  I am really glad you were able to talk to your T about this, although I know you were worried about bringing it up.  My F also used to feel he could touch my bum when he was coming up behind me on the stairs, and for me, I felt continually like I was running away from inappropriate stuff through my childhood, teens and even beyond that as well.  I stand with you in feeling that shouldn't happen, that it's not right. 

I'm glad that when you switch to "adult consciousness" that the idea of it makes you angry.  It makes me angry too. 

Anyway, I had wanted to say something in response to what you'd written, when I first read it earlier in the weekend, but I didn't feel able to find words at that time, but I am thankful to have found words today, and just wanted to say I read what you wrote, and I support you in your reactions to it.

Sending you a hug of support  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 19, 2024, 10:08:14 AM
Discussing this book with t and was/am worried that she doesn't "get" it or understand the importance to me, and how much I feel like it makes sense, but I think she was very open to it as well. So, will persist. Looked up NARM practitioners and slightly concerned it's not grounded (ie "clinical," reputable ie people who are dependable, or seem dependable to my young self). I don't mean this as being judgemental although I suppose it is. I do feel a little concerned that NARM doesn't seem widely circulated and there's only about five practitioners in a large city close to me. Though I guess this is how things start? There is also one who is accredited in the "regular" psychologist route and does neuroaffective touch maybe about an hour away. I will talk to t about seeing them as I think it would be beneficial.

I'm reading the second book called The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma and he does a good job of breaking down the differences between cptsd and ptsd. PTSD is shock and cptsd not so much. It's interesting that EMDR is used for shock. So, maybe not the most effective for cptsd?

He also writes that:

A young child who experiences environmental failure has the lived experience that they themself won't exist without connection and love.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 43). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I feel like I have to keep rereading this because it makes sense why I keep subconsciously playing out these patterns with romantic interests. If they love me, my environmental failure, sense of danger will go away, but also I will be allowed to exist. It is about my identity. So, I keep looking for  romantic interests/being in a relationship  (that love of being wanted; safety of a relationship), but also fearing rexperiencing what happened when there was connection as an infant (that I wasn't allowed to "exist," or my identity was threatened/they wantt something from me=danger). I also think it's coming from such a young place that it feels very under the radar. I think it also makes sense why it was hard to separate from my family who said they "loved" me, and maybe why it is hard for me to accept that they did in their own way?

I also thought this was interesting, talking a little about how the NARM approach works:

Clinically, we track the movement between states of connection and patterns of disconnection with our clients. We will explain this process fully in chapter 6. For now, it is important to clarify that NARM therapists do not make it a goal to eradicate these patterns of disconnection; they also do not make it a goal to get clients into states of connection. The NARM approach supports clients to experience greater agency in relating to these old patterns of disconnection. We know that when our clients no longer need to automatically rely on these strategies of disconnection, they will move organically and spontaneously toward states of connection.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 57). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I think awareness and agency (to me this is the game changer as they said in this second book) around when you are connecting vs disconnecting is important. For me, it hasn't been on my radar that this is a thing. It's what do I need to get done, how is someone responding to me, have I done something wrong, then proving why or why not -reposibility taking/not taking etc, why am I feeling off. I can also see that these are responses learned in the environment I grew up in, and how they are still very much a part of my (subconscious) life. I think actually looking inside for connection and disconnection (and naming that's what it is) was missing. I guess it can relate to some of those things, but perhaps it's more than that. I think connection and disconnection can also apply to "reality." I think it's also something that I don't think will happen, and fear will happen on a deep level.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 19, 2024, 10:20:35 AM
Thank you Hope :hug: I want to say that I ook your comments to heart, whenever you were able to write them, and I feel like that a lot of the times as well. I can read what people write, but it takes some time to respond to them. I'm also sorry that you had to go through those things growing up.

I think it's quite incredible how we are able to function on different levels. Talking bout this stuff, I see the little girl who stood up for herself and said no, I don't like that, and then had to withstand everyone (family) trying to take that (identity?) away from her. So that in certain ways, she did feel like it was a problem to say things, and that maybe it's better to make yourself small, and that you don't want to be "difficult." But I think there is also (somewhere) the awareness that, no, these things aren't right, and that sh does deserve to be heard, and it's not her fault that they didn't listen to  her.

 :hug:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 19, 2024, 11:15:28 AM
something else I guess in relation to what I wrote and Hope responded to (writing a lot today), is t discussing being objectified when we were talking about this. I had such a visceral, bad reaction to it that came up in my body that I sort of thought, yucky, and pushed it down. I feel like maybe it's good to start to take notice of things like this, or when that "push down" happens.

Also, at the gym last night and shifted into "adult consciousness" around someone and their actions (what felt like subtle passive-aggressiveness to me), which made me angry. However, it was also like I couldn't "do" something about it, and those feelings sort of evolved into helplessness (and then dissociation?), which I think is pretty familiar.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on February 19, 2024, 12:15:36 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on February 19, 2024, 10:08:14 AMPTSD is shock and cptsd not so much.

This makes so much sense and yet it has not struck me before. In many ways the label "CPTSD" is incorrect in so many ways. Well, the P and the D at any rate are very misleading. But shock - yes, that seems to be an integral part of PTSD. But with CPTSD not so much, if at all. I can see how shock might be a part of it in circumstances where a child has a normal upbringing and then there is sustained trauma later in life. However, I then wonder whether someone who experiences sustained inter-personal trauma later in life has actually had a normal upbringing. They would probably think they had, because we all do since that is what we are conditioned to think.

I think it is good that your T is open to the book. Maybe it is not necessary for her to fully "get" it so long as she appreciates its importance to you. Maybe someone without the same or similar lived experience could not fully "get" it in the same way you do.

I agree with you that it is good to take notice of the visceral reactions and the push downs. I think we can learn a lot from those reactions. I've been paying attention to mine a lot more recently and discussing with my T. I am starting to get the feeling my visceral reactions are confirming things about my childhood that I cannot remember consciously because they happened when I was too young or I have been unable to form or support conscious memory.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 21, 2024, 11:01:56 AM
Thanks NK - I think the rub with t is that she is quite "shock" oriented with EMDR and deep brain reprogramming (which I don't have a great body reaction to; something about the process doesn't feel right). The part that I really identify with with the NARM technique is agency and the confirmation that I do know what is best for me deep down. Though she did seem open to it a bit last time. This had never been said to me growing up, and I feel like this is where we butt heads when she will say something that I feel guides me to think something as an end result.  I can feel it happening and always feel defensive about this. I think it just reminds me of the power dynamics I had growing up. I feel like I'm going to have to say something like this approach doesn't work for me, it would be better as a suggestion (like asking what I thought about something I don't know). I'm rambling/worrying about the connection.

I hope you're able to find some space for the reactions coming up. I'm realizing it's such a big thing that I don't know where the reactions are coming from, or didn't know. My default survival style has been to stay in my mind. If I can do that, and evaluate the situation, I will be ok. But feelings aren't like that. I think it's been helpful to understand that this is how I process things to stay safe. During an IFS a few years ago, I had this rock like part that kind of stomped around, making noise (?), and not really listening, or reacting to me trying to interact with it. I think to calm it down, I put it in this kind of bunker/deep freeze (ha! thinking about this now). I'm guessing these were the preverbal reactions that happen on the inside that I don't know what to with, so I freeze them. I think the rock part was disruptive, and I can remember many times in the past where I was told that, or that children should be seen and not heard.
______________________

Interesting that they talk about the sense of being "bad" forming in a three month old baby in the book:

A three-month-old baby cannot say to themself, "My parents are under a lot of stress with finances, paying the bills, dealing with family issues, and that's why they go out and get drunk and come home fighting and be scary to us children. This isn't about me, it's about their troubles." Even if a young child could think this way, it would be too much for a child to experience that their caregivers are unable to meet their needs for safety, security, and well-being.

For a child in this situation, it is better to feel that they have done something wrong—and therefore there is hope they can fix it—rather than accept the helplessness that feels like annihilation and death.


Helplessness feels like annihilation and death. Then to have people in my life that I feel tried to make me feel small, put me in a position of helplessness, on top of the misattunement I felt as a baby. So, being close to people maybe feels like annihilation and death because this is what I knew when that feeling of misattunement comes up? As PC mentioned before, no one is perfect. They're going to have moments when they feel crappy, and snap for being upset, or moments of not being truthful. I know I have constantly looked before at their behaviour, paying attention to when things feel "off," or they seem mad at me, or are they deceiving me. Again, consciously I think I know that it's not me, but my body/subconscious is noticing that lack of connection, and it's not like I can easily say, ok stop doing that thing. I guess this is what makes relationships so difficult for me. There's also the opposite where their behaviour is not ok and I should be putting up boundaries, but it's like I don't know the difference.
_______________________ 

I had quite a few vivid dreams last night. I woke up around 2am and stayed awake for a while. I think I was half asleep, recalling the anxiety I have getting close to people, and had an image of my mom being angry with me, or something like that. I can't quite remember. I guess it felt very "big." It reminded me of an IFS where my mom was attacking/bullying me and wouldn't stop. I was also imagining a NARM sesssion, or someone speaking to me in a way that affirmed my agency, that I do know what is good for me, or something along those lines. I felt very soothed, regulated I think, and then all of a sudden the idea of sex popped up, and it felt so jarring. I noticed tension in my hip when it wasn't there a few moments before. It was just a bit odd like where did that come from?

Interestingly, I got the impression this morning (and what made me recall part of the above) is that the idea of somebody touching me makes me feel like i want to fight them/feeling very defensive. As I was writing this, I think I felt shame around that feeling coming up. Like I shouldn't be feeling that way, it's not "nice" in essence, and made me recall all the times I was praised as good growing up. Heller says that feeling anger, or even aggression, towards our caregivers threatens our attachment to them and this is where splitting into the good/bad child begins (?). When a child's needs are not being met, like in cases of abuse, neglect and chronic misattunement, they activate a protest response, which serves as an urgent response to their environment to get their needs met. This can then turn into anger or even rage and in ordeer to survive, they split because they cannot see their caregivers as bad.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on February 21, 2024, 08:43:05 PM
Dolly,

I know that fear of annihilation too. I think of it as the most terrifying of all human fears.

I used to think "God" would reward me for falling on my own sword and taking the blame so my FOO and church wouldn't have to.

Gads. What a confusing trip through life this has been.

I for one appreciate how you share these things you learn. You bring up stuff that really helps. I really like the bold sentence you posted:"For a child in this situation, it is better to feel that they have done something wrong—and therefore there is hope they can fix it—rather than accept the helplessness that feels like annihilation and death." It helps me frame my own situtation more realistically than me thinking I'm being good by taking the blame for everyone else's sins.

Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 22, 2024, 08:11:01 AM
Thank you PC - I feel like I've been writing a lot lately as I grasp this NARM stuff. It doesn't always feel coherent, but I think it's because it's bringing up a lot of stuff. So, I'm glad/happy that it resonates with someone. How I went through life trying to "help" (to fix) things with my family so they will love and accept me, and I still do with people to a certain extent. That's all I did with my family who then didn't show up for me, or support me for being me. Any support it felt like, and I'm tired to repeating that as I imagine some us on here are too. You should't have to fall on your sword for your family. Perhaps it might be helpful to look into where this "blame" is coming from and what it is? I think for me it's always been there, the feeling of having to fix it, and "take it all on."

When I put my foot down, as I did with my mom that Christmas, or want someone to show up for me, I am often disappointed. I had hopes recently that it seemed like someone was interested in me and they would "show up," but looking at their actions, I feel like they're "hiding" from me. This could be because they are deceptive, or more likely, and possibly both, they struggle with their own issues around shame and showing their authentic selves. So, here comes the tricky part, I feel like it's time to move on because I'm being treated like an enemy (it feels), and I don't deserve that. My attachment system has been in an uproar and there's the subconscious part that wants to fix it (put myself out there, take responsibility), and keeps going back to it, but I've done that and it's not on me. Will this person be reasonable and understand (or even communicate)? It doesn't seem like it, but it would be interesting to think that there's hope they might. And here I am leaving my mom again and her blaming me for abandoning her. Me being again, the faulty one, the not nice one.

I also felt quite "overwhelmed" when I saw this person and didn't understand the hiding, what was going on, what they wanted from me. It's possible that mentally (adult consciousness) understood someone's need for space, but child consciousness does not. Ideally, someone would show up and understand that sometimes I am in child consciousness and would be supportive. However, it doesn't seem to work out that way. So, at times like these, I feel it's just better to remove myself from the situation. Now maybe a little bit better prepared to face the loneliness, or whatever lurks there, with the loss of an attachment figure. 

(when looking at this with adult consciousness, where I felt like they were pissy/angry because I was just looking at them, trying to gather information, out of interest about who this person is, I'm happy that I removed myself from the situation and went to another area to do my thing. I don't want to take stuff like that on. Did they wander over, out of their way to see where I had gone? Yes. Did they try to engage me and say hey (repair)? No. Sometimes it's about protecting yourself from other peoples' negativity (as I often couldn't do with my family). I guess there's the disappointment (right word? pain?) when the fantasy doesn't become the reality again, but I'm taking care of myself. Or maybe just repeating the same pattern again. Who knows?)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 25, 2024, 11:12:07 AM
I don't know if the above makes a lot of sense. I spoke with t about it, and it feels difficult because I can look at what's going on from a lot of different sides and viewpoints. Perhaps though, the part that I feel like I discredit, or gets discredited, is the part of me who feels like I'm taking on negativity. It could be that this person was having a bad day (as suggested by t), but I also think there's a collection of "felt sense" negativity, and it sometimes comes down to t just seeing one instance of this in the example that I'm explaining. I'm not elaborating on the other times I felt this same thing. Then, it becomes, again, that I'm not trusting my "felt sense" for reason x,y,z when maybe it's valid. In other peoples' eyes, it could also be that I am putting my own ideas onto someone's actions. I just feel like it reminds me of all the times I had to take on other peoples' negativity growing up and there was no one to support me with that. Growing up in that environment sometimes gives you a "spidey" sense about things sometimes that's hard to justify to other people. It can also be hard for them to understand your reactions to things when you "know" there's something going on.

I would like to move on I guess from whatever illusion I had in my mind. I feel like I've been "hit with a brick" since this incident. I think this is very much the loss of attachment (illusion) that I had in my mind, and I am feeling everything behind it that I probably felt as an infant, that source of pain. When someone takes away your identity, say thank you. This is my "stuff" to deal with. I would not like to react to the other person, and be upset, as I have done in the past. Though it becomes difficult when you feel like they are reacting, and it becomes how am I not going to get dragged into this and let this fantasy go? (when I feel like I do need help with things sometimes and t wants to talk about interdependence). I guess it's the fantasy of how I want things to be vs how they actually are, and if I feel like there's negativity or dishonesty, then it's acceptable to put up some boundaries and it doesn't make me "bad" or "mean."

edit: writing this down has also helped me to see the connection between this incident and the IFS where my mom was in the cave, bullying me. Essentially, I had to take on her negative behaviour and she wouldn't leave me alone until I walled her up. I guess this feels like a repeat of that, or is evocative of that, and I can understand why I might be so sensitive to it, or it feels really strong.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on February 25, 2024, 05:50:30 PM
Quote from: dollyvee on February 25, 2024, 11:12:07 AMGrowing up in that environment sometimes gives you a "spidey" sense about things sometimes that's hard to justify to other people. It can also be hard for them to understand your reactions to things when you "know" there's something going on.


This resonates. Especially right now, for me, as my FOO has problems due to father's illness. I get messages which I am sure are loaded with subtext. But the bare text seems fairly neutral. So if I reacted as I want to I would look hysterical or weird. It's really hard to navigate situations where all the warning klaxons are going off but you seem to be the only one aware of them. Still, I think you are right to follow your instincts. The klaxons were not installed for fun. And maybe they are not all needed any more - but it's a tough job working out which are very valid and which are redundant.

I'm not surprised you feel like you've been hit with a brick. This stuff is really tough to handle. I think you're doing really well.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 25, 2024, 09:34:34 PM
Thank you for validating that NK - I think it's fair to assume that you have probably had a history with your m and know the outcome of said texts where other people wouldn't have had that experience. So, you know that they're not just neutral texts. It makes sense to me that you would have that reaction. The klaxons are not installed for fun. I feel too, that we are told, we are out of the environment, we don't need to be hypervigilant any more. Yet, in times like these, maybe these people remind me of my FOO for a reason as you said.

For example, this guy I'm talking about seems to very protective of girls. I seem to have got in this situation again. My experience of these girls is that I've felt passive-aggressiveness from them before and am protecting myself. Am I being horrible to them? No, I just know what kind of two-facedness is happening and I prefer to wish them all the best and stand up for myself/ not deal with it. However, I feel like this person is treating me as if I'm being awful to them and he needs to stand in and protect them. Of course, I feel like when I explain this to t, or someone else, I'm told I'm putting ideas onto peoples' actions, or have to through a lengthy process of explaining why. Not all the time, sometimes people get it, but often times I'm just exasperated having to do that. Maybe this isn't the best example. It's funny though how it keeps happening.

What's interesting in the Healing Developmental Trauma book is that he talks about people (children) with the Connection Survival Style as having access to esoteric spiritual states because they have a failure to emobody. Listening to my "intuition" and dreams has helped me, even if it doesn't make sense to other people. I am sure there is a degree of hypervigilance mixed with the intuition which makes it difficult to discern what is real and what is past stuff. I know/think that the situation above has brought me back to the little girl in the cave with her mom bullying her, and once that happens, hypervigilant or not, it's not a ledge I'm going to come down from easily, or a connection I will be able to keep. I basically just go offline I think. Friendly, but offline, like I will never let you get to me. It sort of reinforces the idea I had of this person at the beginning that they want something from me. Maybe I was trying to talk myself out of feeling that and maybe there was reason to feel it, but wanted the fantasy of someone showing up for me. Like maybe this time it's different.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 26, 2024, 02:15:00 PM
Some notes from the Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma and some thoughts:

Most clients have spent their lives running away from their inner worlds, which causes lasting patterns of disconnection, disorganization, and ultimately suffering. In this chapter, we provide guidance on how to use exploratory questions in a
supportive way that helps connect clients with disconnected parts of themselves, thereby giving them an opportunity for greater organization and freedom from suffering.

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (p. 117). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

"Secure attachment is built upon authentic empathy, which emerges as caregivers recognize the uniqueness of their child and meet them with curiosity, openness, and interest.

Many children are not raised in such environments; their caregivers focus instead on the child's behaviors, performance, goals, and results, which can lead to a child feeling fundamentally unseen. It is a form of objectification when adults focus solely on correcting a child's behavior. This lack of empathy gives the child a sense that no one has interest in who they are underneath the behaviors.

The environmental failure is experienced by the child as their personal failure. Tragically, a child then learns to treat themself in ways that they were treated. If a child's openness and curiosity are minimized, unsupported, or attacked, they learn to do that to themself.

Chronically misattuned connection from caregivers leads to transactional relationships as children learn to adapt to the expectations of the adults in their world"

Heller, Laurence; Kammer, Brad J.. The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma (pp. 119-120). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

I think I understand a bit better why I keep feeling like people want something from me, and perhaps at times they do. I guess the below illustrates why maybe it is so hard to open up and meet people etc because perhaps it is just reinforcing the transactional relationships I had growing up. I know I place a lot of weight on the people who are genuine and not superficial. It feels very personal as well, like the superficiality is touching something in me; it's not just that's who they are, move on. At time, I think it does (or maybe more so in the past) elicit a judgemental response, which I feel was a form of protection, having no understanding of how to navigate these relationships. I don't think I had boundaries and it just became of repeat of what I had growing up - giving everything to someone because I was looking for acceptance (protection/right to exist), find out they don't see the "real" me (that it is transactional), then become disappointed and withdraw, or feel that it's something to do with me (I'm not fun, not this x, I don't fit in etc). Again, like PC mentioned, everyone is going through something and perhaps there are times when people might act in certain way. However, it's just like this stuff goes right to my core. It's just like regoing through the pain I had growing up all the time.

"Adult relationships are often transactional in the sense that one person is trying to get something out of the other person. Like a game of chess, these relationships can feel like navigating a set of strategies. As children and as adults, people are rarely met by another with openness, curiosity, and interest. It is our perspective that we are living in a time of a collective failure of empathy."

That being said, I think I have made a new friend. I think perhaps we click is because they are a doctor and have a sense of empathy as well as a mutual interest in the gym, but perhaps as well that we are both expats. I don't feel my usual "klaxons" going off and feel like I can be quite open (mostly I think) and animated in talking. I don't feel like that with more what I call "superficial" people and I guess I feel like I "should" have empathy and be curious about them (they are people), but I feel like something in me doesn't feel protected. I just go back to "that place," and I think I probably miss out on friendships this way. However, maybe I'm just doing things at my own pace too, which I think is important.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Larry on February 26, 2024, 04:28:00 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on February 27, 2024, 10:57:11 AM
Thanks Larry

So, I don't know if I wrote this or not  before, but my initial impressions of this person (romantic interest) was that he doesn't seem like the relationship type about a year ago. Fast forward to now, and what's going on, when I feel like perhaps my initial impressions were correct (and this person is not approaching me to chat etc when I've broken the ice three times or so), but when I give them space after it seems like they're not interested, they seem to half pursue. Again, this behaviour is bringing up alarm bells, which part of me wants to excuse with perhaps I'm  not communicating, pushing them away. But at the same time, they are alarm bells.

What I'm curious about though is what if my initial impressions were correct? Why did I feel like I discounted that, or how am I rearranging what I want now (a relationship) to accommodate this person? Mostly subconsciously I think. I felt in the beginning, I did pull back because I wondered why they were interested in me now - did they want me now because my body has changed in a year? This brings up the initial feeling I had that they did want something from me, but I sort of dismissed that as me projecting past stuff onto him. However, I'm just split and of two minds - that I've been holding back because i have these fears and I guess am sabotaging whatever was happening (ie he's now mirroring my behaviour and witholding), or that I did have valid concerns that seem to now be "true" (that he's not pursuing because he's not the relationship type). It could be that he's mirroring and apprehensive about my behaviour, or it could be the reverse. I guess whatever option is "correct," I now feel like I'm in the position of justifying, proving my behaviour like I did with my mom, or at least, that's what I feel like I have to do. I could also just ask this person what they want from me, and see what they say. Though does feel a bit confrontational. I feel like the uncertainty around this is familiar as is the difficulty of me being able to handle the uncertainty. Though I have got better than in the past. It just feels too overwhelming. And I guess on the other hand is the familiar sadness of being alone like I was growing up.

Basically, here I am running away (?) from a situation/relationship that doesn't feel safe again, and I can't tell if it's in my head or if it's justified.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 02, 2024, 12:43:20 PM
All the above is still complicated for me. It's like watching my brain play out, "is this dangerous for me?" in real time.

Talking with this with t has been a challenge. I can see her perspective that I need to feel the grief from this "loss," but I think there's a miscommunication/understanding on what's going on beneath this and this lack of connection. Or the issues with connection that are coming up. Whether it's good or bad, I have issues (anxiety, feels overwhelming) about someone getting close to me. In the beginning, when the feelings were good, it was well this person seems like the not wanting a relationship person, let's hold back and see what happens. Oh, they've acted in a way that confirms my suspicions (ie it's not going to work out), let's hold back because it feels they're upset and that feels overwhelming/something I don't want to engage in. I don't think it matters how perfect that person is (how harmless they seem etc), if I can't allow someone to be close. Or there is some sequence of events, or magic password (of someone showing how completely HARMLESS they are, like rolling on their belly and what relationship does that?) that I don't know, or have the keys to in my body. I feel like this is on my part to deal with.

Maybe I've picked someone again that isn't able to give to me, but as I explained to t, I feel like these parts are out of my awareness. Like it's a deep thing in me that is trying to pick someone to have that connection I didn't have as a baby, thinking this person will be the "one." I don't think that's fair to put on someone else, or expect, especially since I feel like deep down I don't know if I would trust someone with that anyway, and that feels like the issue to me. There isn't something someone can do that I would trust them, or it becomes oveertrusting/trusting the wrong person, and being in the middle trying to work out which one it is I guess? I feel like I've been doing this for 20+ years and I'm tired of it.

What's interesting, and an area where I think t and I are having a difference of opinion, is that this "stuff" is preparts, which has come up again. I felt in the past that even though we have these sensations that are perhaps not defined parts, they still go into the creation of parts. In the Healing Developmental Trauma book, when talking about the survival styles, and I guess the connection survival style, which is formed pre-birth to 6 months, this is described as the development of Self and how we begin to understand ourselves (?). I wonder if this is helps shape our connection the the IFS Self with a capital S? In the Joanne Twombly book, she talked about it not being safe for some children to be in Self and understand what that connection is like. In the Healing and Developmental Trauma book, he talks about the failure to embody (or be in Self?).So, I guess to me, this is our relationships to Self that is formed here in both senses of the word. If we have issues connecting to Self for whatever reason, then parts of us are dissociated as I understand. I could be conflating two things, but this is how I see them connecting.

I guess the issue is is that t sees this as preverbal shock and would like to use DBR which she has brought up in the past. Actually, she hasn't 100% brought it up yet, but I feel like I'm being led in this direction. I told her that I think we're going to have to disagree because I feel like using a process on a part of the brain, which is/might be dissociated and not connected, feels like it would be dropping a bomb underneath the system of parts even if it is not specifically a part. I guess how to get parts on board when they're not actually a part, and/or when it doesn't feel safe to be in Self? I think t is really trying to help and does care. I just feel like this is a new situation where I'm having to say (like in the book), I trust that I know what works for me only it brings up again all those times that I felt like I was being "difficult." Let's see what happens. It's like being in that place on the outside again it sort of feels like for "standing up" for myself, but again, being alone.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 03, 2024, 11:40:16 AM
Simmered a lot with conversation with t last night. I feel exhausted trying to have to explain why I think someone is angry (or upset, or defensive - could be all of the above) when human beings read energy and non-verbal communication. I feel like I can tell if something is off/angry by the look in their eye when they're looking at me. I guess what I find frustrating is that I'm having to explain/defend this when we could've been talking about the patterns coming up, or how it was like when my m looked at me that way, or what I did to deal with it then (probably shut down) vs. what I could do to deal with it now. Not if what I was feeling was "true."

Interestingly, I watched this video by Heidi Priebe today and I think it touched on this whole "drama"/whatever is happening with this person. In it she says that people with low self-esteem/attachment issues can feel like they don't matter (which was shown to them growing up), so they feel like their actions don't have an impact on the people around them. Or, IMO, vice versa (which I think is where t is coming from) is that they "caused" it. What stood out for me, is that underneath it all, I feel like people won't want me, or there will be something better that comes along (ie I don't matter), and once I see evidence of that, I am caught in a negative feedback loop about the other person and that's what my brain goes with to protect me. Oh they seem off, they're rejecting me. They looked at someone else, I must be a placeholder. But in the beginning, it's me saying they're not really going to want me anyway because that was my experience growing up, or they're only going to want me because they want something from me. I think this is very true for how I go into dating in general. I think I used to feel like this with friendships, but maybe a little less now.

It's interesting too how "they want me/don't want me" defines my right to exist as a child, and how maybe I'm carrying this over now. For me, I feel like it comes down to protection (is it dangerous/not dangerous), which is what I must have felt as a baby, and it's either on or off. Like can I attach, or do I have to protect myself? I feel like I subconsciously look for this a lot, and it's a lot less about what I (self) feels ie do I enjoy this, is it pleasurable etc. I also feel like maybe this is something under the radar and difficult to turn off. That anxious feeling where it's just overwhelming. I think this relates to what she explains as not going into situations authentically where we are trying to get these needs met (in probably a subconscious way). So, if subconsciously, I feel like life is overwhelming and I need protection, then I won't be actually getting the need met that I want (an equal and caring relationship).

I also had a dream last night that maybe relates to the above. An old roommate from my early 20s came up who was a lot more sexually adventurous at the time than I was. In the dream, I moved into her apartment, which I think is maybe similar to the ways I looked to her that she was doing better in life than I was. I think I had a very "pure" version of someone liking me that just never seemed to happen (probably because I never thought I was good enough, that someone wouldn't want me). I can actually remember having a crush on someone all through first year at uni, watching him from afar and finally my (another) friend was like this is ridiculous, you guys need to meet. We did, and he was really nice. However, he couldn't make a date and had some function for work, and I was leaving to go away. I took it really personally, which I think was probably confirmation to me that he didn't want me etc, and maybe even this kind of relationship (nice feeling?) that I want doesn't exist. Ie there's something wrong with me. So, I kind of looked to what other people were doing (the roommate) because what I seemed to be doing didn't work for me and I felt like I wasn't good enough. However, I didn't see that I was maybe trying to win the love of people who couldn't love me like that (my FOO). I guess I started doing things that brought me further away from the connection I wanted, but maybe, paradoxically closer over time as I had to figure out (the hard way it felt like) what wasn't working.

It's also really interesting that I had a dream the other week about my gm and how she was supposed to give me some juice, but never ended up giving me any. (Juice symbolized life force and vitality). Maybe, like the above, where I was trying different things that I hoped would work out because what I (thought I) was doing wasn't working, to get the illusion of love (from my FOO), and where I wasn't actually getting any juice. I guess in simpler terms, maybe I was doing something to get the illusion of love that I thought I needed. Looking back on it, I think that guy at uni was really sweet and genuine, and there was something there that I think would have been fulfilling for me, but I needed that "immediate" love/validation/connection/however to describe it to fill the void of FOO. Like if you can't love me like this, right in this way, now, I'm out. Not overly harsh or demanding, but maybe petualant and immature. Tbh I still think I'm doing this to an extent which is maybe why I had the dream with my gm, but I don't really understand how (I was going to say "turn it off, but on reflection, these are parts coming I think that are asking to be heard. I think /feel I've done a good job of trying to turn them off and navigate it, but it doesn't mean they aren't there, it's not a need, and it's the healthiest way to approach it). It's interesting that I haven't noticed this really immediate need to be "loved"/validated in this specific way or it's done (don't know how to describe it) before. It's like I'm not leaving space for the other person to show up, or leave them too much space to show up in a specific way, which I don't think is fair. I wonder where that's coming from.

Long, convoluted post hahaha processing stuff. So, my apologies if it doesn't make sense :blahblahblah:  :grouphug:

The Biggest Blindspot Of People With Low Self-Esteem (& How To Keep It From Ruining Relationships)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFUIv2YXRjw



Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 04, 2024, 10:37:54 AM
I feel like this is looking at the problem from the "other side," seeing that I'm going into situation as they don't want me/ won't want me. It felt sort of similar to the brick to the head, but not quite as strong; just as if I was "split," or open.

What's funny in writing that is I remembered my gm telling me one time when I was maybe 5/6/7 that one day, I won't want her anymore. Also when I was in the change room yesterday, I overheard another woman saying how her husband found a younger woman and moved on. Something my gm talked about a lot too. I guess why it's funny is because I came here to write about a part I met last night that reminded me of my gm. I woke up in the middle of the night and was sort of ruminating on dissociation and doing DBR with dissociation, and guess I "felt" the dissociated parts, and up it popped. I immediately thought, it reminds me of my gm, and tried to ask it if it was a part of me, but it was veery sheepish and didn't want to talk. What I think is interesting too, is that this feels like anxiety of people coming close to me, or what does it want? When I tried to deal with the part I sort of felt sleepy and checked out, but it also felt like I went back to the place of feeling helpless and having no boundaries. I also tried to check in that I was in Self, and was curious about the part.

I guess I was worried about containing the part, so asked it to go into a waiting room. I noticed that I had an image of the recent romantic interest that I've been dealing with come up, and it was like I could see warmth in him. There was no being on alert (or he's going to leave me for someone else etc). My image of this part is that they look quite sad, and a little pathetic like I want to help them, but also that they say they want to help me, and it feels like not help, but a form of "helping" where it's actually a sort of sabotage.

After that, I had a dream with my gm in it where she and my sgf were sitting in a car in this plastic greenhouse/round garage. She was being critical (and controlling though it's funny because I think it's hard for me to see that despite me having this great aversion to being "controlled"), and I am pulling out the pegs/bolts so the door can be opened. Afterwards, I am in a car park being chased by a group of men, and I escape by running into a flat, which they are guarding the entrances to. When I looked up greenhouse in the dream dictionary, it says process of transformation, or you may be too overcontrolling and want things done your way, but are in the process of isolating yourself. This reminded me of my gm and how when my gf would do out, if he was gone for more than an hour (or something), she would call him so he would come home. I remember thinking, he's off with friends two doors away, but she didn't really like to go out and would just sit at home. (I can see how I also like doing this, just sort of being on my own).

I think these are very much underlying things coming up that are outside my usual frame of awareness. I think perhaps the part is not mine, but I have taken it on to some degree to "help" because she "needs" it. However, there's also the other side, controlling and manipulative, which tells me it's an act. This is something I grappled with (and the guilt for not "helping") for a long time. I wonder if the feeling of they won't want me is passed down in this part?
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 04, 2024, 11:03:44 AM
I also want to say that, for everyone, man this stuff is hard. I can also see the "loop" of feeling rejected byy people growing up might enforce the feeling that no one would want me, but my gm was "there" for me when others weren't. Of course, I could have been expecting people (kids/teens) to fill a need that the family and gm created in the first place, which wasn't essentially "authentic," but like "believe all this stuff about my family/me that isn't 'true'" (not sure how to put this).
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on March 04, 2024, 12:08:19 PM
So much of what you write always resonates with me, dollyvee.

Your last comment about having a need that the family created in the first place, and therefore not an authentic need of your own, particularly resonates with me. I am familiar with the feeling of having to fit into a certain mould. My mother was and remains very performative in terms of meeting the needs of others but I have realised they are mostly needs she finds convenient to fulfil or which will make her look/feel good or virtuous.

Like you, I have developed an enormous aversion to being controlled. It can make me somewhat perverse at times - if I feel I am being railroaded into something I will do my utmost to find a way out of it, even if the thing in question is something I might actually enjoy.

This new part you met last night is interesting - I'm glad you were able to corral it in a waiting room while you considered what to do. I wonder if/when it will come back.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Papa Coco on March 04, 2024, 03:31:52 PM
Dolly,

Powerful dream! I use the dreamer's dictionaries also. I have learned a few good things through my dreams.

What I mostly resonate with is your later comment "Man this stuff is hard!"

Hard is a good word. Because I see our brains as having once been moldable, soft, juicy clay. Our FOOs and our schools and churches were able to mold that clay into shapes that THEY wanted to mold us into. In our teens, the kiln hardened that clay into the shape THEY chose for us.

Now we are trying to reshape that clay into what WE want to be, but that clay is hardened. How do we turn an ashtray into a flowerpot once the clay has been hardened and glazed in the kiln?

Man, this stuff is hard.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 12, 2024, 12:36:30 PM
Thanks NK and PC  :hug:

I started another entry with some notes I took from the PGTHDT book but feel I need to write about something else that's come up. I think it's a correlation of things. I had a dream last night that I was back in the house with my dad and my cousin was there. I used to go back to this house a a lot in dreams, but rarely have them now. What I think/realized is that this was a place/time when I started to throw myself into my studies/work I guess as a way to cover up some of the other things that were going on. It also gave me an identity I think. Perhaps this is/was a coping mechanism that also cuts me off from love and closeness.

Someone posted the other week about memory and being able to remember who their teachers were. I tried to write these down and had almost all of them grades 1-7 except grade 5 (and one of the teachers from grade 7 which is another story). I can remember the classroom and there were two teachers actually as it was large and open, with two rooms that were connected. I think I can remember their faces too, a bit. After I did this, I remembered that this was the summer I went to Europe with my m and gm where, reflecting on it this morning, I was basically psychologically punished for two months by my m with my gm drinking and letting it happen, but also sort of scolding m for doing it. Grade 5 was the first year I went to live with my dad, and this was the summer after grade 5. I remember a picture I had from a team I was on before I went on that trip. I was happy, like I was finding my place, was encouraged by my dad, made to feel like a person, that I mattered. Then I think about what I looked like after that trip, or on that trip. It's not so much that I gained a lot of weight (because I was eating to deal with my m's abuse and essentially treating me like I didn't matter, that she didn't "want" me, that I abandoned her), but also that I remember just feeling so lost and empty. My sibling had just been born as well, and my m lavished attention on him and shunned me, but I never held it against him. I loved him.

I thought back to a time when I was 21 and worked in a pub in Scotland. I think I had been through my first t and had tried to get my m to come in so I could talk to her about things, where she just took it as I was telling her she was a bad mother. I overheard a comment that one of the women made towards me, I think because I was so skittish, with empathy about how some mothers treat their children. At the time, I'm pretty sure I felt shame about this. Now I feel grief? tears? sadness? at how a total stranger could see that?

Perhaps this is coming up because I feel there was something in the "romantic interest's" behaviour that I didn't like, and didn't feel like this person would be on my side. It just really stuck out as, I can't take this on, or work with that. I guess it's a boundary instead of feeling/thinking how can I work with this to make it work. What came up afterwards was anxiety and an anticipation of retaliation, or revenge. I can see perhaps, given my m's behaviour, why I would think this. I also tried thinking about the incident that happened from "adult consciousness" and was just hit with a lot of emotion/sadness/tears and feeling of how people have treated me badly, or just been awful to me. But it wasn't a feeling of self-pity sadness that I sometimes feels happens when reflecting on this stuff, but genuine grief (?) about it. I don't know how to describe it. I know this time happened with my m, but I guess this is like seeing it from a different side. I've felt anxiety (?) after setting this boundary/realizing what my boundary is (that I can have one), and I think this is where it's coming from.


Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 21, 2024, 11:01:50 AM
I think there's been a lot coming up lately with regards to this situation with this person, in whatever fantasy or reality concept in my mind. I'm glad to write my dreams down here and it sort of highlights what's going on.

I decided to try and see a NARM therapist and have been for two sessions now. It's an interesting concept and differs from "normal" therapy, or what I'm used to, in that there is frequent, or regular check ins about how I'm feeling about something and just noticing what is going on in the body after I've shared something for example. At the end of the session, we talked about a "knot," or seeing the two sides of trusting this person. I actually don't 100% remember what she said which I will bring up, but I did feel like an animal pinned down, struggling to escape when trying to take this in, and checking in what was going on in the body. I couldn't locate any parts that I think felt it would be ok (or supportive parts? I can't remember). I feel like wow, we just went right to the issue there.

Interestingly, I ended up seeing this person at the gym after the session and I had the same feeling/reaction, and that I couldn't trust them and was the same pinned animal trying to escape, even though I think their initial response to me when I noticed them around was ok (I don't know how to frame it, it didn't feel negative). After seeing/feeling like they would be on the side of someone else who is jealous/reacts in a similar way to my m (?), I don't feel like it's a safe situation for me. However, at the same time, I can see that there is probably some old stuff coming up as well that is coloring my reaction to things. After this, I feel like I'm feeling a lot today. I'm also noticing i'm getting quite frustrated at certain things not working properly. 

Right now I feel like I'm really dealing with or feeling the garbage I had to go through for standing up for myself when I was eight. It's funny now how I think this is coming up again when, for example, I feel I have to "stand up" against jealousy or competitive behaviour from other women around romantic interests, and I feel like that is being seen as "wrong," or "bad," by this romantic interest and how again, I'm somehow at fault for it. So, the only thing I feel I can do is remove myself from the situation. Whether or not that's true or the case, I guess remains to be seen. I feel like there's always some "crazy" woman that I have to deal with in these situations, which I guess is like dealing with myy m all over again.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on March 21, 2024, 01:02:07 PM
It can be hard to unpick what is a reaction from the past and what is a reaction to the present. So I think it pays to think about reactions, as you are doing. I think that if you analyse the reaction the first time you have it then you have less chance of it "sticking" automatically. If there is doubt then you are in a better position to analyse again the next time you come across that person. You're not boxing yourself into a position based on trauma.

That said, I often find that it is very hard work to unpick a trauma reaction, and very emotionally draining. Sometimes I just go with the reaction even if I know it is a trauma reaction. For instance, I will sometimes find myself going to visit FOO because it feels the "least worst" option if I am not feeling strong enough to reject the visit. I thought T might not approve but she says that it is fine to do that. The important thing is that I am making an active and informed decision and not just following a knee-jerk trauma reaction.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: Hope67 on March 23, 2024, 03:27:43 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
Wow, that is great that you've found a NARM therapist, and that you found the first couple of sessions to be helpful. 

I hope you'll be able to untangle more of your feelings around that romantic interest person, and work out what you want from stuff related to that. 

Sending you a hug  :hug:
Hope  :)
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 24, 2024, 10:08:09 AM
Thank you NK and Hope  :grouphug:

Hmmm I think it's very difficult not to fall into a reaction seeing this person. My initial feeling (looking back because I can't seem to come out of it in the present; I'm not sure what's going on lately but it's been hard to 'step back') is that it's sadness and feeling like I "hurt" this person by feeling like I had to stand up for myself (because of someone else's jealousy and unfair reactions). When I put it in black and white like that, it seems like a repeat of how I felt after I decided to leave my m's house as a nine year old after my sf's treatment of me (with, I guess, some element of worrying what the retaliation will be for it). Maybe there's also the familiar feeling of sadness because I had to do this for myself, and it means I'll be on my own. Last session new t congratulated me on making that decision so young and I asked how I felt about that. I said it's hard to connect to, or think about it in that context because it was like it was "beaten out" of me later, and I was very much punished for doing that. Maybe this is how this part stays stuck in the past by forever thinking there that I must punish myself, or there will be punishment for having boundaries? Or that if I set boundaries, I must be on my own?

I think it's also hard because I don't think my reactions are happening in a vacuum and I'm sure there are things that he's dealing with based on my reactions as well. Anyways, I don't know if I'm just torturing myself all oveer again for doing something that's right for me, even if it means leaving someone behind that I might care about (based on how they've treated me - and now my brain says maybe that 'treatment' is a projection of what happened in the past so you can 'protect' yourself  :fallingbricks: ). I guess I just hope there's someone who's patient enough to sit with me even with their own stuff while I figure it out.

________________________________

New t and I have been talking about "not doing" things, or working so hard. I admit, I didn't react well, or I guess am proud of my work ethic as I also think it's been a benefit to me. Then I remembered that this feeling of "being a caged animal' was familiar and I had felt it before with a "mom part" in IFS. So, I went back to read my old IFS entries and was quite shocked at what I found, how "real" those parts are. The mom part started off as another part who was busy all the time. I likened it to the guy who spoke really fast in commercials. If you grew up in the 80s in North America, you probably know who I'm talking about. What struck me is that this part is really busy I guess and "zooms" everywhere. This part also resulted in a, or morphed into another part which was like a pinned animal when I asked it questions.

When I had some energy work done, flowers came up for me as a source of healing (and connection I think) and colours. I've always loved being in the garden and flowers, but it was also like something was in the way? Or that other people have to be on board before I can enjoy it? There was an IFS entry where I gave one of the parts flowers and she seemed to like it very much. I'm not sure what makes me doubt (?) the realness or validity of my own internal experiences sometimes. Or maybe it's the lack of being able to form a connection with it (dissociation?). I feel like I'm thankful for writing these experiences down in my journal with openness about what happened.

I also want to say that when I went back and read these things, it was like my brain felt different. That there was some ease, less "zooming," but then I think there's a part that gets worried about that ease, or feeling things like that. I feel like it's hard to connect to parts right now.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: NarcKiddo on March 24, 2024, 11:37:40 AM
Ha! Another person who does not react well when a T gently suggests taking a step back and having some rest might be a good idea. Yeah, that resonates.

It feels like a positive development that your brain felt different when reading those things, given that you felt more ease and less zooming. It also stands to reason that not all parts might be on board with that feeling. The unfamiliar is always a challenge. It can also be very hard to accept that old coping mechanisms are no longer helpful, and may even be harmful now, because our lived experience of them is that they were helpful back then. I guess there have to be parts who go around saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and maybe they need more convincing that some fixing is needed now? Just thinking out loud here.

Since we haven't got a flowers emoticon, here's some sunshine to make the flowers bloom for you:  :sunny:
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 24, 2024, 12:18:52 PM
Thanks NK - it's funny to think how much of a protection mechanism it is to "work hard," and not even realize that that's what it is. It was such a prized attribute in my family too. But I guess I can see it as a form of control too, the always having to do something to (maybe) be a step ahead for whatever impending doom is about to come, in relationships and life. I can also see how maybe that "impending doom" is generational though I'm not entirely sure how to handle that yet. Well, I tried in my IFS before I think but maybe I need to build my trust in Self first. I hope you're enjoying the sunshine too.
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It did come down to me feeling like the "stuff" wasn't all mine when we discussed the feeling of the knot and the caged animal metaphor came up. I said that this sort of frozen feeling, or being stuck (?), is when I start feeling like this has to do with other people in my family and goes back to their views of how unsafe the world is/was etc. I guess maybe I'm carrying that too. When I had the reaction to this person the other day, there were people around that I don't see as "safe," or are competitive and I think maybe that had something to do with wanting to push someone away.

What's interesting too, is that this zoomer part had to take on, or there was an element of men thinking she was stupid, dumb blonde etc. So, maybe this competitive 'guy' energy triggered that part as well? I'm not really sure how people don't get triggered by blatant sexism/wanting freedom and independence from that, but I think that's a theme in my life and the women in my FOO's as well. They were in controlling, jealous relationships and I'm trying to avoid that at all costs. Maybe this is another theme that I'm playing out, and or projecting. Am I testing this person to see if they're going to be jealous and controlling, and not telling them that I've been on my phone because of work etc as they had done with me? (I wrote that and got the sensation of likmaid (how do I even remember that name?) which is a sugar/candy thing I used to eat all the time when I was young (7 and younger). It reminds me very much of the time I lived with my m and probably pre sf where I was on my own a lot and used to ride to the 7-11 to buy candy. Maybe when we lived at sf's house too, which was only a street away from our old house. I very rarely have visceral memories of that time. If I think about it, this is probably around the time I really had to start shutting down my emotions because of my m's behaviour and then because of my sf's. Enjoying this was probably a treat. Maybe it was from an even younger age as well.)

I would like to feel compassion for this person beyond whatever stuff is going on with me too.
Title: Re: dollyvee's recovery journal
Post by: dollyvee on March 28, 2024, 09:52:13 AM
I found myself talking about something unexpected yet had such a place of prominence in my family and relationships with the NARM t yesterday - money. It was such a thread in the relationship between my gm and gf, between my m and me, between my m and gf. It was a form of control - if you don't do this, you will be cut off. So, it's kind of interesting how I avoid money, or it doesn't seem to factor in consciously when I'm thinking about relationships, but it reared its head and all the business after my m's death with the brother, sf, sgf. NARM t said, how does it feel that they actually stole from you (my brother and sgf)? There was no dancing around it, having to try and prove what was going on (who was lying and who wasn't), trying to prove I think on some level my "innocence." She said no wonder you feel like someone is going to take something from you (I also replied that my m and gm I think have been taking from me for longer than that, and gf), but it's true. And, for whatever reason, these are all the things I've tried to hide about my family. For shame? That people will then think I'm like this and judge me for it? But here I am too, trying to "hold on" and prove that I'm "good," I'm not like that.

When she asked me how I felt about that, I said it made me feel small, like someone could do that to me. I guess it's hard too, to not to be cynical when you've had these experiences? I also thought after how usually there is a part that is worried it will be believed and has to try and prove it; I guess looks for a witness or "back up." I think there's also another part that's worried about survival on some level. If people take from me, how will I survive? I need this, I have to protect this (or I am unprotected on the other hand), that I think has kept me in that drama, or engaged with the family on some level.

I'm also realizing that m and I's final fight was about helping me as a co-signor for some finance. There were a lot of battles about her helping me financially (just doing the basics as a mother sometimes), where I felt supported as a child/dependent. But that help etc never seemed to be there, and that's when my gf would step in, but it also had to be "proved," and to be on his terms etc (to have this to 'exist'). I guess that felt "safe" until I did something to upset him etc. I think this was a thread between him and my m as well. My gm would also get involved subtly in my gf's relationships and tell me that if he married so and so, there would be nothing for us kids. It's funny that after my m's passing, when it was essentially his money and where it was going that was being discussed, sgf and gm were talking about getting a lawyer after my brother "suggested" (lied) that there was money coming to them. All these facades of "care," but at the end of the day it's what are people taking (stealing from me, and me having to prove my right to it/to be here), watching my brother tell lies and have people defend him/support him (at my expense).