I've recently had reactions to new meds in the form of anxiety or panic attacks. I've had this over the years with other meds and there have been other members who have posted about similar reactions. I've started a sticky thread to collect experiences over time and see if this is the case for a few or many.
I'm talking about meds/substances that cause restlessness, agitation, anxiety, paranoia - distressing psychological symptoms in other words.
Mine include:
- caffeine
- marijuana
- steroids (had these for cancer treatment)
- pain meds following surgery - e.g., morphine
- Ozempic (diabetes/weight loss med that works in part on the brain)
Looks like the common denominator is that these work on the brain. That said, I do take SSRIs and Gabapentin and neither seem to be a problem so :Idunno:
I had another bout with anxiety and couldn't figure out why until I read the ingredients of a prescribe nasal spray my doctor had given me for a sinus infection. Corticosteroid. Honestly I thought I was doomed to being anxious, that it was becoming a permanent state and I had no idea what to do about it.
When I am triggered and having an EF I can now trace what I'm feeling to to something that has happened. But this, nothing. That was so scary because there didn't seem to be any reason for why this anxiety had overcome me again. Really, really frightening.
Anyway, I stopped using the spray once I figured it out and feel loads better already.
I hate what trauma has done to my body.
Congrats on figuring it out with the spray and so being able to ditch that load of anxiety! As well as get out of that really frightened place. :thumbup: :hug:
:thumbup: on expressing hate for what trauma has done to your body.
I know your post wasn't really about this, but I'm really impressed that you can now do the below! :cheer:
Quote from: Kizzie on February 04, 2022, 04:31:34 PM
When I am triggered and having an EF I can now trace what I'm feeling to to something that has happened.
Tks BB :hug:
Yep, those steroids are very interesting! When I was in my mid-twenties, I had bronchitis. The attack was bad enough that I went to the ER in the late evening, and they ended up giving me THREE nebulizer treatments. (the "inhale this mist for a few minutes" thing) Well, bronchodilators in nebulizers and inhalers are steroids. I was hyper as heck and couldn't stop yammering after the third one. It was rather humorous when I look back on it. Not a fun feeling at the time and glad I never repeated that.
This is really interesting but I'm the reverse. I grew up with asthma and was on ventolin and inhalers until my early teens. Loved ambien (was like floating on a nice fluffy cloud) but only had one bottle for flight anxiety. Marijuana depends and have only had bad anxiety a couple times, one I was pretty sure it was laced with something. It does make me "think more" but I wouldn't classify it as anxiety. Though, I guess everyone's baseline/definition of anxiety might be different.
Corticosteroids make me feel utterly darkly convinced that life is a pile of stupid bull**** that is not worth living but which I cannot escape from until the universe decides to let me die. This is true of prednisone tablets, which I had to take a number of years ago because my lymph nodes were swollen and threatening my breathing, and of nasal spray. Nasty!
It is a really nasty reaction that some of us seem to have. Layer it on top of CPTSD and it's truly awful. One of the worst things is not knowing if it's an EF or something else which is why I started this thread. I figured it out because I can usually track my EFs to something going on in my life but in this case, there was nothing.
I have to have cataract surgery in March and one of the drops listed on my instructions is a corticosteroid drop used 4/daily. I looked it up and lo and behold a couple of patients report that dark thinking you talk about Bach and what I experienced:
URL: https://www.drugs.com/comments/loteprednol-ophthalmic/lotemax.html
I went to my doctor for general eye irritation and most likely an incorrect fitting of my current contacts which is causing eye irritation. I was prescribed Lotemax, 1 drop in each eye, 4 x day. Obviously Lotemax is a steriod. I have NO history of anxiety or mental illness. After first day I noticed I was having weird thoughts that I couldn't get out of my head. In the days that followed, I started to have SEVERE anxiety with full blown panic attacks. I was scared to be around my husband and my children worried that I might cause them harm or them harming themselves, or somehow being subjected to harm... my worst fear. I was manic with worry and paranoia and cried repeatedly. I stopped the meds and the symptoms started to disappear.
***************************************************
I share the same experience as T-Lee below in 2015. I've never had any mental health problems, but after a week of taking Lotemax for dry eye & inflammation. I started to have dark thoughts which turned into extreme anxiety. When I say extreme, so extreme I thought the only way to end the episode was to harm myself. I luckily told those close to me what was happening and tried to work through each episode. I thought I was going insane, I even set up a course of anti anxiety medication and counselling with my GP. Until, my mum who was comforting me and helping me look after my children (because I couldn't) looked up the side effects of Lotemax and saw the reviews, most noteably the one from T.Lee. I was so relieved I wasn't going mad and now I have stopped the drops for 2 days the anxiety is fading. I also have a urinary tract infection, which when I checked is another side affect.I also went on the credible medical sites about side effects of corticosteroids and there it was, big time anxiety for some people whether it be a nasal spray, eye drops, inhaler or whatever. (Decongestants and antihistamines are right up there in terms of causing anxiety too by the way.) I phoned the surgeons office and told them I could not use those drops and wanted something else instead.
I'm not ever going to feel that way again, CPTSD EFs are bad enough!
Kizzie, this is very validating for me, because a few years ago when I was prescribed Flonase and had that side effect, no one took me seriously. I was just glad that I realised that Flonase is a corticosteroid and related it to my experience with prednisone, so I could stop using it right away. It probably would have been good if I'd been able to follow up with the doctor after that and see if there were any other possible treatments, but it was too upsetting, and I decided that it was easier to just continue to deal with the problematic nasal breathing I've been dealing with all my life.
Bach, that makes me angry & sad to hear you were not believed. Nothing more crushing than not being believed as many of us here know all too well. :pissed:
My go to now that I seem to be reacting to a lot of meds will be the credible sites that identify symptoms that's for darn sure. I'm fortunate to have a great doctor so am going to have a discussion with her about the fact that I am so sensitive to meds, moreso now as I get older.
Sigh.
Hi Kizzie,
The health detective part of me was interested in this and looked into it a little bit. It looks like steroids (such as prednisone) interact with your cortisol levels (prednisone being 4x stronger than cortisol). So, am guessing that anything steroid will affect your adrenals/cortisol etc which seems the reason for the increased anxiety etc. Growing up with chronic trauma affects cortisol through chronic stress. Although in the MW book on generational trauma, he cites an example that babies born with trauma have low cortisol levels. Any kind of hormone fluctuations can imbalance the HPA axis. So, high estrogen levels will affect cortisol (or our response to cortisol) etc because it's just a giant feedback loop. A bigger response as you get older might be because of those changing female hormones. Please disregard if it's not right for you, but a functional Medicine practitioner might br able to help balance the hormones and some are MDs as well.
Hope you're feeling more rested,
dolly
This doesn't really resonate for me in terms of psychological reactions to various drugs or substances as I tend to react in a physical way to so many drugs/substances! I'll start a new thread for anyone who wants to discuss that.
Tks so much for this Dolly, I appreciate you taking the time to do this :hug: I think I need to read up more on cortisol. I've seen it discussed but didn't pay a lot of attention. Seems like for my sake I do need to dig into things like this.
I do wish medicine were further along for relational trauma survivors so medical/MH professionals understood just how trauma an affect the body. I had a call back from the surgeon's office who will be doing my cataract surgery in March and the nurse relayed the doc's response which basically was to say it should be okay because it's not a lot of corticosteroid. Um no doctor, that's not true for me and that's why I spoke to your staff. Gah!
Now I'm going to have to convince him or find another surgeon I guess. I will be talking with my GP this week and also think I'll talk to my pharmacist to see what I can find out about alternatives to CS med.
I remember you telling me about the physical reactions you have to meds Sweet Sixty and that your T thought they were related to your trauma wholly or in part.
A thread about physical reactions would be great, tks! :hug:
Done :hug:
Cortisol is what is released in the body when there is a stress response, so chronic stress over time can also lead to adrenal fatigue, cortisol issues etc. Because all hormones are connected, an imbalance in one causes an imbalance in another ie estrogen dominance can lead to high/low cortisol etc and vice versa. It's not an easy fix of just adjusting cortisol etc but adaptogens can be helpful. Although, not if you have low cortisol. I would try electrolytes (potassium, magnesium) to help support the adrenals.
For a long time I thought I had an issue with cortisol because of the trauma but am learning that perhaps the trauma (and high cortisol /stress) led to changes in gut health which then creates systemic inflammation in the body and higher cortisol. This also led to food allergies and intolerances that then reinforce the inflammation. Lower circulating levels of nutrients such as zinc can also affect reactions to inflammation/cortisol. Because I had gut and therefore absorption issues for so long, I had really low levels of everything but especially zinc and magnesium which are important for stress management.
I wish the doctors were responsive to this too but it's not really in their wheelhouse as I found so had to do a lot of research. I am lucky to be able to do private testing through a fmp which I definitely recommend as they're much more up on these things. It's not cheap but i don't think I would have gotten any answers/help just staying with regular docs. TCM docs were also really helpful.
https://journals.lww.com/nursingmadeincrediblyeasy/fulltext/2021/01000/mental_status_changes_with_corticosteroid_therapy.11.aspx
Excellent, validating article Dolly, tks! I am off to my GP shortly so will be taking the article and talking with her about this. I will see the surgeon on the 28th so want to go to that appt as prepared as I can be.
Good luck! You could ask them to test your hormones and see if anything turns up. If they say your results are "normal" at least you'll have your levels if you want do some more research.
This is also interesting if anyone wants to have a read:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5736941/
Hi Kizzie,
Have been doing some more reading on methylation and low folate levels and came across something perhaps. Your reaction to Ambien popped into my head when reading about overmethylation. Perhaps an adverse reaction is a sign of undermethylation.
"Sometimes diagnosis can be predicted based upon reaction to medications. Many overmethylated people will feel much worse taking an SSRI such as Paxil, Prozac, Welbutrin or other. These drugs tend to lower histamine further creating more of an imbalance. Overmethylated people often do better on benzodiazapenes such as Xanax and Ativan. I have had patients take both SSRIs and benzos and either do poorly or well on both."
https://askdrgil.com/need-know-using-methylated-folate/
Also, the pam medications you mentioned are benzodiazapenes, so might not work with low methylation?
It looks like coffee and pain medications (including opioids and antidepressants) are metabolized by the same cytochrome P450 enzymes. The paper below goes into genetic testing for specific enzymes (MTHFR, COMT, CYP) to see if there is lowered functioning leading to reactions on certain medications.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5743122/
https://mthfrsupport.com.au/2018/09/coffee-metabolism-and-your-genes/
I guess it's not so much about hormones but the methylation pathways that then influence the hormones. Who knows - ha! Anyways, please disregard if not helpful. Just trying to get a better understanding of this stuff myself.
dolly
Wow Dolly, this is awesome as always. Tk you so much. :hug:
I know something like this is going on with me so this kind of information validates and inspires me to keep going to find what I need to feel better.
I just have to get my GP and her psychiatrist colleague onside to dig into this which feels a bit daunting at the moment. I have a second cataract surgery this coming week to get through so trying to stay grounded, calm and as stress free as possible but once that's over and done with I will pursue possibilities like this with her.
I just think how long I've lived with this stuff going on and if it helps other people that's great.
Take care, it sounds like you have a lot going on right now. Operations are stressful.
It's interesting that it's for your eyes. I feel like I've come across a few different things that connect methylation to eyesight. I was reading about thiamine today (viral infections can deplete thiamine which helps regulate blood sugar and insulin levels) and it linked a deficiency to cataracts. Apparently, a lot of the b vitamins - B2, B9, B12 - involved in methylation are also very important to eyesight.
This has a blurb about thiamine and cataracts:
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/thiamin
Hope it goes well :hug:
:hug: :yourock:
Just a bit of an update. I've been taking the new SSRI for just over a week now and so far my anxiety does seem to be getting better. So perhaps it actually was as the psychiatrist suggested, that the one I was on was having a paradoxical effect and causing more anxiety, sort of like "rebound congestion" when you use too much nasal decongestant and you end up causing more congestion. I hope so.
I'm still not on twitter, don't watch the news, am not reading any trauma books or posting/reading much here just to give myself as much calm as I can to help bring the anxiety down and keep it down.
:hug:
Hi Kizzie,
That's great that you've found some relief from the anxiety brought on by your SSRIs. Like you mentioned elsewhere it's hard to pinpoint where the anxiety comes from when we've been through a lot trauma-wise. As I'm finding out, not all roads lead back to trauma even though it's really hard to discern what is what.
dolly
I do think that the main reason I have reactions to medications is because my system was so affected by the hormones/chemicals of trauma and fear. I also think some of these things get worse with age as may have happened with my SSRI. I've been on it for a long time and suddenly it starts causing anxiety rather than helping reduce it. :Idunno:
As you say it's hard to discern what's what ???
I think of it that our bodies are systems that are constantly in action and processing new things. For me, we were born with a predisposition to certain conditions and it's likely the high stress/trauma that started our bodies processing things in certain ways and developing subsequent conditions etc. I also think plastics, toxins, nutrition, medication etc play a part in how these systems then react too. So, are in an evolving feedback loop of cause and effect. The trauma likely initiated it but it takes on a life of its own as the body tries to rebalance itself. If we are needing more B6 for example because of stress, and we continue to experience that stress but are also not getting the B6 diet wise, or have the enzymes to activate it etc it's going to have a knock on effect on our bodies and how we feel as a result.
When I looked up the ventolin I was taking as a child it actually may have had an adverse reaction because it was shown to increase histamine, which meant more cytokines crossing the blood brain barrier and more anxiety. After reading stories of how much peoples' mood, personalities, outlooks changed after adjusting nutritional imbalances, it's hard not to consider this as a big factor in how I see trauma affecting me. It's thrown up a lot of questions - what I thought was "me" and that's how I acted/felt because of trauma maybe isn't so cut and dry :stars:
I love that you're digging into all this Dolly, it's not for the faint of heart :thumbup: :applause:
I wonder what will be common knowledge in 5, 10 or 20 years from now? I'd like to think readers will come across this thread and Sweet Sixty's thread years from now and say, "Wow, these survivors understood how important it is to look at how trauma and other complex factors impact the body, not just the mind."
Here's to hoping it turns the tide and ACEs, childhood trauma, and chronic stress and their relation to chronic health conditions are put on more peoples' and doctors' (!) radar so people don't feel the need to blame themselves for what they're feeling and experiencing.
I also forgot to write yesterday that part of me wonders about the book you mentioned before about the person in CBT for 20 years if maybe some component of what kept their trauma alive was physical in nature? That being said, I do think therapy is comforting and I can imagine not wanting to break that bond with someone after so long.
QuoteHere's to hoping it turns the tide and ACEs, childhood trauma, and chronic stress and their relation to chronic health conditions are put on more peoples' and doctors' (!) radar so people don't feel the need to blame themselves for what they're feeling and experiencing.
:yeahthat:
If you're ever interested in writing an article for our blog on this topic Dolly, plse PM me as I'm always looking for survivors' perspectives and issues of concern.
Thanks Kizzie maybe once things get settled I'll try to put it down and figure out a way to tame my run on sentences :whistling:
:thumbup:
Happy to report I am not having anxiety attacks like I was so it confirms for me and my GP that it was the particular SSRI I was on.
I do wish psychiatrists were more available to help sort out meds. Where I live you can only get one appointment through health services and that's it, they don't track you or anything after that. Instead of me going to the psychiatrist my GP connected with him instead. My GP is awesome but she doesn't have the deeper knowledge that the psychiatrist she consulted with does. He knew right away what was happening and was able to help her and I make the appropriate change.
Lovely to be feeling better and thankful my GP goes the extra mile :yes:
Hi Kizzie,
That's great :cheer: I'm kind of in awe that psychiatrists will just prescribe a medication and then leave a GP to sort it out (if there is one) while you deal with the effects. To me, that's literally their job and points to maybe something wrong with the system as a whole. Glad your GP was there for you. :hug:
Now if more would look into the connection between MTHFR mutations and major depressive disorders and adequate methyl donors, my rant.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4898281/
dolly
That articles so confirms for me the need for medical (and ideally mental health professionals) to be knowledgeable about how medications/ supplements can exacerbate psychological symptoms.
I know when I was looking into corticosteroids and read about the two people who used eyedrops and developed very bad anxiety I was shocked. One of the people had reported this to her doctor and they had made a plan for her to see a therapist and also start an SSRI. She thought she was the problem. How many others is this type of thing happening to?
( Just an aside - When I read the article I kept reading MTHFR as "motherf*****" lol which about sums up the mutation ;D )
I think that's true and that these things don't operate in a vacuum from each other and to start an SSRI because of a reaction to a medication is almost unbelievable. It just seems like such a failure for doctors to do what they're supposed to actually do. It's also in line with what sweetsixty was talking about with pharmacogentics (?) and that not everybody is going to respond the same to different medications because of genetic variations. That's probably not taken into account enough.
A lot of people read it that way ;D From reading other peoples' experiences on different forums, it does sound like some doctors do test for MTHFR and will prescribe Deplin, which is high dose methylfolate, if they're found to be homozygous for the mutation (C677T), but I don't think that's the majority. I know from my own experiences and learning about how these things actually work, is that folate needs to be properly metabolized (and there needs to be enough of it) in order to have adequate neurotransmitter production. It seems so fundamental but isn't addressed at the GP.
Just a bit of an update. I've further lowered my dose of the new SSRI I'm taking (Lexapro) and weaned off the benzo I was on for a few weeks (clonazepam) and still no return of that horrible anxiety. So for whatever reason (I'm personally thinking aging) after being on it for about 6 years I became quite sensitive to it. We were upping the dose which seems a natural response to my anxiety when we should have been lowering it. A bit counterintuitive but it worked thankfully.
Whatever, I'm just glad to be on the other side of them. It was similar to being flattened by depression, couldn't get out of bed, didn't eat, insomnia.... but it was anxiety. I've had some bad bouts of depression where all of that happened but never anxiety that caused me to become non-functional basically.
Oddly enough after what I just went through and as I mentioned elsewhere on the forum, I have decided to ask my GP if she will refer me to a clinic here to do a trial micro dose of Ketamine to see if I am okay to go ahead with ketamine assisted psychotherapy. I was reading about what it can do for people with treatment resistant depression, anxiety, PTSD and chronic pain and it has some legs (research re its efficacy).
I have definitely made progress since finding out I have CPTSD but want to see if I can build resilience and maybe even find the joy, peace and enjoyment that often eludes me.
Anyway, I'll post as I go.
So I spoke too soon. Two days after stopping the benzo back came the anxiety and on a holiday here (Jul 1st is Canada Day) no less so had to ride it out. I went into my pharmacy on Sat and because they know me they gave me enough of the benzo to get me to my appt on the 5th.
So quite the discussion with my GP. We lowered the SSRI dose again and she's now going to refer me to a psychiatrist who hopefully will see me long enough to figure out what is going on. Typically you don't get much time with them and there are fairly long wait times to see one. They have the knowledge and experience to sort odd/complex cases like mine out though.
It was a No to the Ketamine as well, too much going on to try it at the moment.
I am so discouraged.
:bighug:
Tk you BB, I definitely needed that. :hug: back at you.
My anxiety has been way up despite the benzo so it's a rough ride again or still. I hate this.
One clinic of psychiatrists my GP referred me to declined me apparently. Maybe not serious enough for them? They aren't taking anyone until October anyway.
We also have something called Access Mental Health here. My GP referred me in March so I could see a psychiatrist to manage my meds - still nothing from them. I phoned, she phoned and you have to leave a message and they will get back to you in 2-3 business days. Mental health is just not a priority funding wise obviously.
:hug: Kizzie.
It's so complicated and frustrating so much of the time.
Tks Armee, It's bad enough trying to find a therapist who knows about CPTSD but a doctor/psychiatrist, good luck. It's still PTSD, not Complex PTSD.
We so need for medicine to know about and be able to treat us for the injuries exposure to traumatic stress causes, not just psychologically but physically. There is very little I've come across about psychopharmacology in everything I've read. One recent book about treating complex trauma had one paragraph and yet so many of us are on one kind or another (SSRI's benzodiazepines, etc). My GP still refers to me as having PTSD but at least she is willing to admit my case is complex and she needs a hand from a psychiatrist to help get me the right med(s).
I came across this webinar in an email from ISSTD today so am going to take it into my GP the next time I go (21st). You never know, she may take the time to attend. It's only three hours and the cost is quite low.
"There's a Med for That! Trauma Psychiatrists Discuss How to Think About Medications for Complex Trauma and Dissociative Disorder Patients" - Webinar presented by the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation and The Centre for Advanced Studies in Trauma and Dissociation October 28, 2022. Cost is $79 for non-members and $59 for members (US)
Link - https://cfas.isst-d.org/content/theres-med-trauma-psychiatrists-discuss-how-think-about-medications-complex-trauma-and#group-tabs-node-course-default2
Presenter: Benjamin Israel, MD
Dr. Benjamin Israel is delighted to be participating in the ISSTD's online education series. Dr. Israel is a Clinical Assistant Professor at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry. He works at a variety of clinical sites focused on consultation-liaison and emergency psychiatry. In July 2022, Dr. Israel opened a trauma-focused outpatient community psychiatry clinic within the University's Division of Addictions Research and Treatment. Dr. Israel is the lead author of a forthcoming publication exploring trauma-responsive addictions treatment and clinic management. Dr. Israel teaches and supervises psychiatry and psychotherapy trainees at all levels. He also sees private psychotherapy patients, most of whom suffer with complex posttraumatic and dissociative syndromes. Dr. Israel has presented to professional audiences locally, nationally, and internationally on the diagnosis and treatment of complex posttraumatic syndromes. He has developed and led workshops on trauma tailored for medical providers who are not mental health or trauma specialists. Previously, Dr. Israel worked at the Trauma Disorders Program at Sheppard Pratt Hospital, where he functioned as a psychiatrist, psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, and Service Chief. Dr. Israel graduated from the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine and completed residency training at the University of Maryland / Sheppard Pratt combined residency program in Baltimore. He is board certified in adult psychiatry. He lives in Baltimore, Maryland, with his wife and their two sons.
Presenter: Rich Loewenstein
Richard J. Loewenstein MD is Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD. He is the founder of, and from 1987-2020 was the Medical Director of, The Trauma Disorders Program at Sheppard Pratt, Baltimore, MD. He is rated by U.S. News and World Report as among America's top 1 % of psychiatrists. Dr. Loewenstein did a research fellowship at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, MD. In the past he was a faculty member of the Departments of Psychiatry at Yale University, New Haven, CT; George Washington University, Washington, DC; and University of California, Los Angeles, CA. He is the author of approximately 100 papers and book chapters on dissociation, dissociative disorders, and trauma disorders, among others. He is the Section Editor, Dissociative Disorders, of the American Psychiatric Association (APA), DSM-5 Text Revision (DSM-5TR), to be published in Spring, 2022. He is co-editor of the 4th Revision (in preparation) of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD) Guidelines for Treatment of Dissociative Identity Disorder in Adults. Since 2000, he has been an author of the Dissociative Disorders chapter in Kaplan & Sadock's Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry. He is leading the revision of the Dissociative Disorders chapter for the upcoming (11th) edition of this textbook. He is distinguished life fellow of the APA and, among other awards, has received the Lifetime Achievement Award of the ISSTD.
So I decided to go to a private psychiatrist which is horrifically expensive but I need to see one. It's $1400 for an assessment and $365/session, all out of pocket so it may dig very deep into our savings depending on how long it takes. What else can I do though? I need someone who knows more about meds than my GP (and she agrees I need a psychiatrist), ) and the wait list for psychiatrists paid for by our provincial health is months long. It's absolutely appalling.
I just finished filling out the intake forms - 30 of them if you can imagine. There was only one form about trauma and it was to screen for PTSD. The mental health sector is very slow to change.
My GP did switch me to a new SSRI and I do feel somewhat less anxious so fingers crossed this will be the one.
Oh Kizzie. I'm so glad you'll get some help but so sorry it is so expensive.
Tks Armee :hug:
Quote from: Armee on July 18, 2022, 05:00:57 AM
Oh Kizzie. I'm so glad you'll get some help but so sorry it is so expensive.
:yeahthat:
I'm so grateful I live in a country where that is all covered by
all health insurance, not just by private insurance.
Kizzie, it hurts to hear how much you have to dig into your savings. I really, really hope it helps.
(My therapist said a few years ago he got about €80 for 50 minutes from my health insurance (not private), a psychiatrist probably gets more but I'm sure it's not the equivalent of $365).
Yes, crazy expensive here (just like Internet, cable TV). I didn't realize you were covered to that extent in Germany BB :thumbup:
Should be that way everywhere. You just can't separate mental and physical health, they are intertwined as we know (and the ACEs and other studies have demonstrated).
Hi Kizzie,
I also hope that it helps. It's shocking to hear about the cost involved.
:hug:
Hope :)
Tks Hope :hug: Hugs do help.
I emailed to see if the psychiatrist got the forms and he did but is on holiday until next week so wont be reviewing them for a bit. :doh:
My GP called yesterday to see how I was doing and we ended up in a conversation about how frustrated we both are trying to get me the help I need and how the system is broken. There just aren't enough medical professionals to go around. We have a shortage of GPs across Canada and psychiatrists are even fewer. Gah.
Hey Kizzie,
This came up this week on my radar and thought it might fit in with what you're dealing with.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/how-do-you-know/202207/serotonin-imbalance-found-not-be-linked-depression?amp
dolly
Tks Dolly. The whole idea of medications/psychedelics affecting neuroplasticity (versus serotonin or the like) does seem to be cropping up more. Here's an article I just found when I was looking into Ketamine you might find interesting:
Vargas, M. V., Meyer, R., Avanes, A. A., Rus, M., & Olson, D. E. (2021). Psychedelics and Other Psychoplastogens for Treating Mental Illness. Frontiers in psychiatry, 12, 727117. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.727117
Conclusion:
The ability to selectively modulate neural circuits using small molecule psychoplastogens opens up new horizons in neuropsychiatry focused on healing pathological neural circuitry rather than masking disease symptoms. This type of circuit-based approach represents a fundamental shift in how we might treat a number of neuropsychiatric diseases and has important implications for the future of CNS drug discovery. Given the history of neuropsychiatry and the intractable nature of brain disorders, we need to take advantage of every available tool in our therapeutic arsenal including both hallucinogenic and non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens.
Ketamine and psilocybin have demonstrated that it is possible to produce long-lasting beneficial changes in neural circuitry using small molecule drugs, and they have forged a path for future, optimized psychoplastogens to take their place. If we ever hope to heal the nearly 20% of the population suffering from a mental illness, we must find innovative ways to reduce healthcare costs and broaden patient access to psychoplastogenic medicines. Non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens have the potential to be truly scalable solutions to many of the problems facing neuropsychiatry.
I hope I live long enough to reap the benefits of this exciting new research!!
It's actually something that I've seen firsthand recently. A colleague, who is usually fraught with anxiety and second guessing himself, came to work after microdosing psilocybin. It was like meeting a new person that was a lot happier with himself.
On a recent trip to Vancouver, I visited the magic mushroom dispensary and will see. Although, I don't think my issues will resolve until I get what's causing the neuroinflammation under control. Neil Nathan talks about Ketamine resetting the nervous system as well in the book I've been reading, Toxic.
Hope you get a chance to test it.
dolly
There is a magic mushroom dispensary in Vancouver? I mean where else but Vancouver but is it for legal use?
I know you've been doing a lot of research into neuroinflammation - have you come across any mention of the use of hallucinogenic and non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens to reduce it?
Well, I think it's a grey area but they operate as cafes/stores with business licenses. I think it's like the pot cafes in the 90s/00s.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6385792
The only thing I've come across is the Neil Nathan excerpt on Ketamine but that was more resetting the nervous system after mycotoxins/Lyme exposure. I think the underlying source of neuroinflammation needs to be addressed first or in conjunction but that's just my thinking.
A quick search and did pick up a few things which are interesting:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165247820303977
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8352634/
Whoa, that is some exciting research!
Big Pharma must be in a spin seeing studies like this that threaten so many of their drug lines. I wonder if they're doing their best to get head of the market on these or suppress/criticize the data? (I'm more than a little distrustful after the whole Purdue oxycontin debacle.)
Anyway, psychedelics really do seem to have some "magic" to them in terms of both physical and mental health. Exciting times.
Interesting about Vancouver mushroom cafes, inevitable next step after cannabis became legal I suppose.
Wow. This thread is both exciting and frustrating. I'm using clinically infused Ketamine and it's really helping, but I'm told psylocibin works much better and much more permanently. I'm frustrated that I can't participate yet. I'm hesitant to just try to use it at home on my own. I am waiting for the laws to allow a clinician to administer it safely in a way that will guarantee healing for my depression/anxiety.
Dang. We're so close. But like Kizzie, I live in a country (the US) which is owned by Big Pharma, who is NOT about to lose its income from SSRIs. The bullies own the population here. They are making massive money on our illnesses, and they have NO intention on allowing that to change.
Quote from: Kizzie on July 27, 2022, 02:42:31 PM
Interesting about Vancouver mushroom cafes, inevitable next step after cannabis became legal I suppose.
I remember seeing an article in the Guardian about trial research being done at UBC (?) with microdosing LSD I think around 2010 and it caught my interest back then.
I don't know if I've had any "profound effects" from the little bit I've tried recently. I do notice some sleep effects though which I think psilocybin is supposed to effect via serotonin levels. It's like a grogginess at certain times which is not great. Maybe there's more of an overall calmness? But it's hard to tell as I've been detoxing mycotoxins as well as being out of the moldy environment for a couple weeks, which I think helps.
I've recently subscribed to a magazine called "Psychedelia" My Summer issue just came a few days ago, and it pointed me toward a book, which I just bought on Amazon.com. It arrived Friday. (It's also available on Kindle, but I prefer paper because I'm old).
It's called The Microdosing Guide Book: A step by step manual to improve your physical and mental health through psychedelic medicine by C. J. Spotswood, PMHNP.
I've only read the first chapter so far, (I think it was just published 3 weeks ago). He says he gets all his information from reputable research papers, and just wanted to collect it all into one easy-to-follow guide for those of us who are overwhelmed with information on the coming age of microdosing.
Thanks Papa Coco, I'll check that out.
I just want to add a word here that OOTS does not endorse or promote the use of microdosing with illegal psychedelics. It is also recommended working with medical professionals with legal substances such as Ketamine.
I know many of us are desperate for relief, myself included, but just please be cautious if you do choose to micro-dose.
The good news is there is a LOT of research being done and it is likely we will see more legal psychedelics for therapeutic use in the near future.
kizzie, reading thru your experience w/ getting help w/ meds from someone who is a specialist (psychiatrist) has been terrible - frustrating, maddening, and heartbreaking. so very sorry you're going thru all this. the mental health realm is sadly and sorely lacking in compassion, and relational trauma is sadly and sorely lacking in understanding, let alone validity and acceptance.
i agree w/ you about staying away from illegal drugs. there is so much we can't understand about how something works on the brain, in what capacity, and what dosage to use that keeps us sane and healthy.
i do sincerely hope you find some help and relief for what you've been going thru, my dear kizzie. standing right beside you with this. sending love and a hug filled w/ help and hope. :bighug:
Tks so much for your caring support San! It has been and still is horrible and I don't wish this on anyone. Mental health is so secondary in medicine to physical issues. I was at the ER twice this week and that was quite clear sadly.
I will take your hope and hug it close as I try to get myself the help I need. :hug:
Kizzie;
HUGE hugs from me too. :hug: I think you're such an amazing person. I'm sending the most positive thoughts I can your way.
Quote from: sanmagic7 on August 02, 2022, 03:41:12 PM
i agree w/ you about staying away from illegal drugs. there is so much we can't understand about how something works on the brain, in what capacity, and what dosage to use that keeps us sane and healthy.
i do sincerely hope you find some help and relief for what you've been going thru, my dear kizzie. standing right beside you with this. sending love and a hug filled w/ help and hope. :bighug:
:yeahthat:
and I'm so sorry Kizzie that it's so hard to get adequate psychiatric care in the form of being prescribed medication that will help where you are!
I'm grateful that it's plainly much easier where I am, tho not psychedelics et al, just plain what they're allowed to prescribe. It's good to be able to feel gratitudeI hope you don't have to go to ER again, but if you do, I hope you can picture some of us from OOTS sitting there with you if it's helpful
Kizzie sorry to hear that you've been in the ER twice this week. Hope you find some relief.
If anyone is interested, there is a documentary on Netflix right now called how to change your mind about the growing research into psychedelics.
Ah, Kizzie. I'm wishing you a better week. I'm sorry I wish I had something helpful to say.
Off to my GP this morning and going to ask about Ketamine and about going off SSRI for some other kind of med as I think for whatever reason I've become intolerant of SSRIs. Couldn't even get out of bed yesterday.
:hug:
I'm so sorry it's been such a challenge Kizzie. I really appreciate you .
Good luck Kizzie! :hug:
i echo everyone's sentiments, kizzie. hope it goes well w/ your GP and you finally get some relief. we'll be there if you want the support. love and hugs :hug:
Tks so much everyone :grouphug:
So she did agree to refer me for the Ketamine BUT first we have to get my blood pressure down. It was quite high yesterday and when I went to the ER and I'm not taking anything so I'm taking readings until Tues and then she will decide what to do. I'm fairly certain she will put me on BP medication until I get through all this anxiety but that's OK, better doing something about it then let it take a toll on my body.
Anyway, once it's down and stable I can go try the Ketamine providing they clear me also. The only contraindication is my BP so I should be OK to go ahead once it's down. The clinic is booking in to Set so it will still be a month or so but it gives me something to hang onto. I just hope this helps. I start therapy with a trauma therapist from the clinic on Mon - they treat a lot of PTSD but also Complex PTSD.
Kizzie,
I'm so glad you and your doctor are working together for this Ketamine journey. I'm with you, No one should do anything like this without a doctor's assistance. It's important that your BP is stable before starting and I'm glad your doctor is fixing that first.
Congratulations that K is going to become available to you!
Yay Kizzie :cheer: So happy for you that there seems a way forward.
That's great Kizzie. I hope you find some relief in the ketamine treatment.
Tks again everyone. We've reach 5 pages on this thread so am going to lock it and will start a new thread if/when there is anything to post about.