A number of members have said that swearing is very triggering for them given that many suffered from CSA and/or emotional abuse in which offensive, demeaning sexually explicit language was used. As such, we have instituted a new Member Guideline as follows:
Swearing is not permitted because it is triggering and offensive for many of our members who have suffered from CSA and/or physical/emotional abuse which involved aggressive, threatening and/or demeaning language so please be considerate.
A filter has been added to replace offensive words with an *. However, if a word slips by please report the post and it will be edited accordingly.
Those who want to express anger or frustration may want to consider using one of the angry emoticons instead, for example:
:blowup: :pissed:
That's interesting. I'm triggered by being told not to swear because in the midst of my childhood abuse, sexual abuse, mental and physical abuse,, when I tried to speak out angrily and swore, the only way my perpetrators (my parents), could win an argument, was by saying "don't swear" taking the authoritive figure, and therefore oppressing the problem further.
I get being triggered, and I do swear when expressing anger at times in this forum. Sorry if I have personally offended anyone.
We all have different triggers I guess.
Quote from: KayFly on August 15, 2015, 08:20:48 PM
I'm triggered by being told not to swear because in the midst of my childhood abuse, sexual abuse, mental and physical abuse,, when I tried to speak out angrily and swore, the only way my perpetrators (my parents), could win an argument, was by saying "don't swear" taking the authoritive figure, and therefore oppressing the problem further.
You're not the only one. I understand why swearing upsets people, but I also understand this.^ :(
Quote from: Kizzie on August 15, 2015, 07:31:18 PM
A filter has been added to replace offensive words with an *. However, if a word slips by please report the post and it will be edited accordingly.
It's unclear for me if this means that replacing one or more letters from a swear-word is OK to do? Or is that still considered swearing?
QuoteThose who want to express anger or frustration may want to consider using one of the angry emoticons instead, for example:
Is typing #%&! considered an emoticon or swearing?
I ask because using either (the #%&! and [letter]*) has been earned me warnings at OOTF and led eventually to the extermination of my account there. I don't want that to happen again.
I'm a bit afraid to even ask this, and hope this is not considered a "Fake Question", which has been another offense that added up to my list of misgivings there.
It truly is not clear to me if the extended auto-censor now provides sufficient 'protection' or if this new rule means any word edited by the auto-censor should be edited out completely by the poster.
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on August 16, 2015, 04:05:13 AM
Quote from: Kizzie on August 15, 2015, 07:31:18 PM
A filter has been added to replace offensive words with an *. However, if a word slips by please report the post and it will be edited accordingly.
It's unclear for me if this means that replacing one or more letters from a swear-word is OK to do? Or is that still considered swearing?
Typing any form of a swear word is not acceptable "f***" or "f**k" for example. The filter will pick up most full swear words and replace them with an "*" but it will not pick up "f***" or "f**k" so these are what may slip by (or swear words that are not in the filter).
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on August 16, 2015, 04:05:13 AM
Quote from: Kizzie on August 15, 2015, 07:31:18 PMThose who want to express anger or frustration may want to consider using one of the angry emoticons instead, for example:
Is typing #%&! considered an emoticon or swearing?
Good question Dutch, and your reason for asking it is a reasonable one. To my mind "&*^%" represents swearing to most of us, but as to whether or not it's offensive I'm not sure. so let's see what others have to say.
Is "*&^%" an acceptable form of swearing or not? Speaking up is a "good" thing so please weigh in ;)
Thanks.
I hadn't realized [letter]*** gets passed the filter. It makes perfect sense though.
Nor had I realized the filter does not 'produce' an 'acceptable' form of a swearword. Which is the case at some other BulletinBoards/fora. Thanks for clearing that up.
I'd say @#$&! is an 'emoticon'/non-offensive. Much as it is in many comics/cartoons. Since it is an generic expression of anger/frustration.
I think I even murmur that in real life sometimes ;D . Non-intelligable sounds.
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I agree with Dutch Uncle. Keyboard mashes are not words, so they can't be considered swear words. To me, there is a big difference between doing that and typing an altered expletive that everyone can still recognize.
I think that banning the keyboard mash would be going too far, because that would be essentially saying that no one is allowed to express their anger and frustration except by writing well thought out and sensitive prose that happens to be impossible for many people when they get triggered (or searching for the approved emoticons).
Good feedback tks DU and MD. :thumbup:
I'll leave this open for a bit in case anyone else wants to weigh in.
I grew up in an environment where vocabulary, in terms of learning how to use it effectively, was not important; what I did learn, is how to swear and I learned that very well! As I grew older, I naturally found a love of reading and writing and through that, I found different ways to express myself. I also learned to respect the company I keep and to the best of my ability, use my words appropriately.
QuoteI think that banning the keyboard mash would be going too far, because that would be essentially saying that no one is allowed to express their anger and frustration except by writing well thought out and sensitive prose that happens to be impossible for many people when they get triggered (or searching for the approved emoticons).
I agree here as well. Mourningdove, you said that beautifully!
As with all aspects of language, there is a time/place where swearing totally fits my emotional state and is just as valuable as any other word created by that energy.
Taking others into consideration, if we must alter the way we express ourselves to accommodate the group as a whole, I say it's a good thing but banning the keyboard mash? No...
I read a post here a few days back and someone used "effin" in place of a swear word. And for me, it worked; I felt the energy behind the statement just as if the swear had been spoken.
So "effin" is OK?
Thanks, Lifecrafting. :)
I wrote a version of the following earlier, but then got triggered (see above for why) and scared and erased it:
I am willing to go with the flow, because I don't want to trigger anyone, but my personal preference would be to allow expletives as long they were always preceded (like at the beginning of a post) by trigger warnings for language. That way no one would be taken by surprise by troubling language, and yet people would not have to police their own communication so thoroughly when they are upset. There have been many times that I have not posted here when I was upset and could have used support, because I didn't have the ability to (or didn't want to) censor myself every sentence. And that in turn made me resentful.
Quote from: Lifecrafting on August 17, 2015, 11:17:09 PM
QuoteI think that banning the keyboard mash would be going too far, because that would be essentially saying that no one is allowed to express their anger and frustration except by writing well thought out and sensitive prose that happens to be impossible for many people when they get triggered (or searching for the approved emoticons).
I agree here as well. Mourningdove, you said that beautifully!
:yeahthat:
I want to add that there are posters here, like me, for whom English is not their native tongue, nor is their culture "English". It's pretty hard to figure out what is allowed.
As an example: for me personally, the whole concept of "bleeping out" whole words or part of it is completely alien.
And so, to find out what is acceptable or not really is a matter of "trial and error". And by that I mean NOT wanton "trial" (as in: let's see if I can get away with this), but of unexpected "error" (as in: "Oops! What happened here?".)
Quote
I am willing to go with the flow, because I don't want to trigger anyone, but my personal preference would be to allow expletives as long they were always preceded (like at the beginning of a post) by trigger warnings for language. That way no one would be taken by surprise by troubling language, and yet people would not have to police their own communication so thoroughly when they are upset.
Yes, I feel the same. I'm wondering though, if it would it work for the group as a whole? If someone couldn't read the post because of swearing, would they then miss the value of such a post?
QuoteThere have been many times that I have not posted here when I was upset and could have used support, because I didn't have the ability to (or didn't want to) censor myself every sentence. And that in turn made me resentful.
I completely understand. I too, would choose to express myself without censorship; what if we just have a swearing page....HA! Just kidding. That would be so intense! OK, so I wanted to say freaking intense there.... OK to use that substitute?
Seriously though, would it be helpful to create a circle of friends here who could be of support through PMs at such times? I know that's not ideal but aside from creating a page that allows for mad (p.o. - is that allowed? Gosh this thread has me thinking!)language.... I can't think of anything else.
QuoteI'm a bit afraid to even ask this, and hope this is not considered a "Fake Question", which has been another offense that added up to my list of misgivings there.
Seriously...what is a fake question?
Quote from: Lifecrafting on August 18, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
QuoteI'm a bit afraid to even ask this, and hope this is not considered a "Fake Question", which has been another offense that added up to my list of misgivings there.
Seriously...what is a fake question?
It was not explained to me. Apparently it's self evident.
After some puzzlement I've decided not to try to figure it out.
And I couldn't ask, that message had come through loud and clear. ;D
I think "fake question" is an accusation that is made when someone thinks you are not really looking for an answer, but rather trying to disrupt by asking. I think this is dangerous to do on the internet, especially in settings that are designed for support, without solid evidence of malicious intent.
I was wrongly accused of something like this once on a website that was supposedly for support and it was devastating for me because it gave me massive EFs that came from childhood peer bullying and parental abuse and it was traumatic enough that I still have flashbacks about it. I'm sorry you were accused of asking a "fake question," DU. That question you asked seems reasonable to me.
Quote from: Lifecrafting on August 18, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
Quote
I am willing to go with the flow, because I don't want to trigger anyone, but my personal preference would be to allow expletives as long they were always preceded (like at the beginning of a post) by trigger warnings for language. That way no one would be taken by surprise by troubling language, and yet people would not have to police their own communication so thoroughly when they are upset.
Yes, I feel the same. I'm wondering though, if it would it work for the group as a whole? If someone couldn't read the post because of swearing, would they then miss the value of such a post?
That's a good point. It could also be problematic if "offensive" language was then quoted by another without the trigger warning. There are definitely pros and cons to every decision.
With the caveat that I don't want to 'solve' a problem I am hardly aware of (because I have no idea what the mods encounter during their work), I think that disallowing anything that's in the auto-censor filter is a good way of indicating what's acceptable or not. Posters can then see when they post if it's OK or not, and take appropriate action.
Like mourningdove said, there are pros and cons to any decision:
- There will still be the question what should be in the filter (thus it doesn't 'solve' the question on what should be allowed or not)
- People, certainly here, are regularly already 'nervous', and they might as well forget to check if their post has been 'corrected' by the auto-censor. I do 'fire-and-forget' posts here! (usually not though). So then it might appear as malicious intent, if a poster has left *'s in their post. When it's not.
I think a *trigger warning for language* will defy it's purpose. Who am I to know if the language used below it will be triggering for me? One thing I've learned here is that there is a myriad of triggering language, since we all had so different specific experiences. But the experiences are, in all their diversity, so incredible similar in the effect they had on us: cPTSD.
In general I like the idea of encouraging posters to use emoticons to express anger, frustration, rage etc. , but I think there's too little choice at the moment.
:blowup: would definitely not work for me, as this is exactly I want to learn to avoid ;) . Being able to 'vent' my anger in other, more constructive ways is a means to prevent me from blowing up. That's a bit self-destructive, which I've done for so long, too long.
:pissed: is a great emoticon, that I also use.
But if I really have to/need to say [inappropriate language], I need something stronger than that. :pissed: is waaay to well behaved. Some smiley for :over-the-top: could do this community a service, IMHO.
And thanks mourningdove (and Lifecrafting) for your support.
I was puzzled by the action taken then, let's leave it with that.
The mere fact I was allowed to even mention it now, in this context, has convinced me such silliness will not happen here.
So, thanks to the mods as well. :thumbup:
What has happened in Vegas, can stay in Vegas. Over and done with. :yes:
And I'm sorry to hear, mourningdove, that you've had a similar experience. It's so hard. :thumbdown:
Wow, what a great thread everyone, this certainly got some good discussion going! :applause:
A couple of things:
Fake questions - glad to know what this is now, you had used the term elsewhere DU and I wasn't quite sure what it meant.
Emoticons - just a suggestion, no "approved" ones ;D
Symbols Mash - In addition to the posts here, I've had a couple of PMs suggesting members are fine with this but not swearing outright or using F**** in place of, so I think basically we're onside as a community about this. I am going to edit the Guidelines to reflect this, but please feel free to carry on with the discussion and if other ideas come up we can consider them. :thumbup:
The specifics of what constitutes triggering can be pretty broad, plus it's very individual and hard to pinpoint every trigger over a varied community like this. According to this site's glossary, triggering can stem from "small, insignificant or minor actions, statements or events that produce a dramatic or inappropriate response." That's a lot of ground to cover.
Viewed from that perspective, lots of encounters produce triggers. The most innocent reference can set off the EF/trigger node. I've had days where it seemed like triggers kept coming and wouldn't stop. Recently I was in a horrid state when someone I met resembled in every way--looks, manners, voice, everything--someone who'd abused me. I had to get away, fast; and felt awful the rest of the day.
Some religious terms, to me, can be more triggering than the foulest profanity would ever be; and for others, the same words would be seen in a very positive light. I cringe when I hear certain terms which the speaker considers quite meaningful to them but are very scary to my sensitivity. I associate the words with some of the darkest memories I have; of people who perverted those very words into horrific abuse. They sometimes hid behind the very language use I'm referring to.
It's not that anyone should refrain from them for my sake. They don't know what's going on when I hear them, that I flashback hearing certain terms. Nor should I expect that they'd understand. I've learned it can easily happen, but what rankles is if they cross my boundary and belittle or invalidate my feelings. I have scars which still ride close to the surface.
Which doesn't cover the profanity issue, per se. Personally, I am a bit put off by some of it if used excessively, but I also had a front-row seat to the hypocrites of my past whose actions were more obscene than the foulest words imaginable. Once I became a trickster, I especially enjoyed one scenario which caused a certain holier-than-thou teacher to slip and hear him utter the most vile language you'll ever run across.
Living in my backwoods area, it's often hard to find many ordinary conversations where profanity doesn't crop up as an acceptable part of everyday speech. It could be called the macho/backwoods dialect. Personally, I find it unfortunate but it's not hard to find examples--I used to work in a preschool program, and you'd hear 4 year-old bat that stuff around.
So I'm drifting away from the issue at hand--on this site, civility is a prime necessity. Seems reasonable, until our inner selves cry out in anger and pain. It's hard not to as we're reacting to people who made no attempt to be civil, would spite any notions of decency, whether it involved language or not. So it's understandable when and where it might pop out; but I also acknowledge that guidelines might reinforce the common sense we strive for.
So it's kind of a fine line. This site does have the trigger alert system and now the language advisory. The anger factor always, and often needs to, come into play when we've been through the firestorm of emotional upheaval. I can go either way, having heard it all in daily life, fom some 4-yr-olds even, but see the sense of what's been decided about certain over-the-top expressions. We know 'em, but probably don't need to see them graphically presented here either.
Quote from: KayFly on August 15, 2015, 08:20:48 PM
That's interesting. I'm triggered by being told not to swear because in the midst of my childhood abuse, sexual abuse, mental and physical abuse,, when I tried to speak out angrily and swore, the only way my perpetrators (my parents), could win an argument, was by saying "don't swear" taking the authoritive figure, and therefore oppressing the problem further.
I get being triggered, and I do swear when expressing anger at times in this forum. Sorry if I have personally offended anyone.
We all have different triggers I guess.
I'm glad you said that now all I have to say is I agree and "me too". Swearing is a release but maybe also a disguise -- as long as I'm swearing I'm not crying and I don't attract bullies who will tell me more things about my deficiencies I don't need to hear.
Quote from: Lifecrafting on August 17, 2015, 11:17:09 PM
I grew up in an environment where vocabulary, in terms of learning how to use it effectively, was not important; what I did learn, is how to swear and I learned that very well! As I grew older, I naturally found a love of reading and writing and through that, I found different ways to express myself. I also learned to respect the company I keep and to the best of my ability, use my words appropriately.QuoteI think that banning the keyboard mash would be going too far, because that would be essentially saying that no one is allowed to express their anger and frustration except by writing well thought out and sensitive prose that happens to be impossible for many people when they get triggered (or searching for the approved emoticons).
I agree here as well. Mourningdove, you said that beautifully!
As with all aspects of language, there is a time/place where swearing totally fits my emotional state and is just as valuable as any other word created by that energy.
Taking others into consideration, if we must alter the way we express ourselves to accommodate the group as a whole, I say it's a good thing but banning the keyboard mash? No...
I read a post here a few days back and someone used "effin" in place of a swear word. And for me, it worked; I felt the energy behind the statement just as if the swear had been spoken.
So "effin" is OK?
So we have to get our swear words pre-approved? What's the use? Non-spontaneous swearing doesn't get it for me. It's just another control mechanism to add to all the others. My dogs know a certain way I say (geez is it okay to say "the F-word", not the word itself just the F-word) that word - they know when I'm just saying it for the heckuva it and when I seriously ticked. If it bothers them they go in the other room for 10 minutes they come back and all is well.
Hope4Me,
What I think is to be (has been?) worked out is a way for spontaneous posting of thoughts/feelings without "triggering language". For me, swearing, used within the context of one's present state, is not a problem but there are some who really do have a problem with it. Coming to a consensus for the group as a whole would be touchy ground and not everyone will agree but in terms of coming to that decision, I can see that a general rule must be followed for the benefit of all; does that make sense?
QuoteSwearing is a release but maybe also a disguise -- as long as I'm swearing I'm not crying.
This is interesting.... For me, when I use my "go to word", I'm actually falling apart, usually beginning with anger but the bottom line is that I'm really feeling my hurt and I'm usually crying. Thanks for posting; you have made me think this morning!
I guess I missed your introduction to OOTS; Welcome!
There is much to be learned here about cptsd from many sources and the fellowship is just so supportive and loving....I wish you the best.
this has been an interesting discussion; funny isn't it how emotive this kind of thing can be? for me, to swear in the cult was total no-no, but of course, folks did it. and when i was bringing up my kids, i was shocked at how their generation (born 1990's) uses what for me was really bad language but for them is part of their culture - they don't turn a hair at what makes mine curl.
i am afraid i swear a lot more now i am alone and 'free'... i know it's really a kind of teenage rebellion in me, some 4 decades late. everyone has their own take on this i guess, so really, maybe it's a question of being kind to folks and not putting trouble in their way, isn't it?
i just wish i could work out how to use these emoticons, they say a lot without any words at all.... let's try... :wave: ... it just says 'wave' so let's see if it comes out as a smiley or not when i post...
Yay! it worked. now i can swear in emoticons and no one will be hurt. technology is wonderful :yes:
Quote from: woodsgnome on August 18, 2015, 09:13:44 PM
It's not that anyone should refrain from them for my sake. They don't know what's going on when I hear them, that I flashback hearing certain terms. Nor should I expect that they'd understand. I've learned it can easily happen, but what rankles is if they cross my boundary and belittle or invalidate my feelings. I have scars which still ride close to the surface.
Which doesn't cover the profanity issue, per se. Personally, I am a bit put off by some of it if used excessively,
[...]
civility is a prime necessity. Seems reasonable, until our inner selves cry out in anger and pain. It's hard not to as we're reacting to people who made no attempt to be civil, would spite any notions of decency, whether it involved language or not.
[...]
The anger factor always, and often needs to, come into play when we've been through the firestorm of emotional upheaval. I can go either way, having heard it all in daily life, fom some 4-yr-olds even, but see the sense of what's been decided about certain over-the-top expressions. We know 'em, but probably don't need to see them graphically presented here either.
(
bolding mine)
I find this all so eloquently put. :thumbup:
Quote from: arpy1 on August 21, 2015, 01:15:51 PM
i know it's really a kind of teenage rebellion in me, some 4 decades late.
Probably I've said this before, but anyway: my accountant, a wonderful women, told me last year: "Dutch Uncle, you should at times behave a bit more as the adolescent you were never allowed to be." (paraphrased)
Perhaps that's some Inner Child Work that in general is not 'quite' what our T's would advise. But probably they would agree. ;D
I'm glad that at the moment we appear to have reached a consensus where we can still scream and shout, if need be, without offending anybody.
"I scream,
You scream.
We all scream,
for IceCream!"
(blatant reference to the movie "Down by Law" by Jim Jarmusch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_LMI0mPFMY
PS: on second thoughts I should add a trigger warning with regard to the whole movie. The clip itself is fine.
Thoughtful and thought provoking discussion in this thread :thumbup:
I agree with Lifecrafting: Coming to a consensus for the group as a whole would be touchy ground and not everyone will agree but in terms of coming to that decision, I can see that a general rule must be followed for the benefit of all
It's all we can do really. What's particularly positive for me though is that we worked through this issue together and quite well as I see it. No shaming or put downs or any of the other lovely behaviours we grew up around. We were civil and considerate whilst talking about something we all had differing opinions about. Yay us! :cheer: