Out of the Storm

This has been sitting on my desktop for a while now. I thought that perhaps more could be added.
But now I feel it's time and worthwhile to at least drop these 'tidbits'...

I'll kick off with my 'therapist'-mom.
Whenever I turned to her when I was 'down' (by an ended relationship, a failed exam, job-loss or something else non-catastrophic) this was the comfort that was offered to me:

- "You have not found your leak yet, Dutch Boy" (with the 'leak' being some defect in my aura, or some other new-age tripe)

- "You have no bottom, Dutch Boy"

- "Strife is Love". (As in: = )

- "We choose our parents before we reincarnate (in the FOO. Works in relation to choosing your elder brother(s)/sister(s) too.)" (making it a FOC, and so she gets a "get out of jail free"-card for any of her behavior. She was chosen by me, it's my bloody karma. (she never told me that directly, but that message definitely stuck.)

- "people only change when they hit rock-bottom" (While there may be some truth in that, this usually was more of an obligation to sink a little (or preferably a LOT) deeper, than an encouragement/validation I had hit just 'rock-bottom', and that it was OK now, and the only way was up. Not a "wow, what great insight/life lesson you have gained, Dutch Boy! Off you go, dear son! :thumbup: .
But a way of saying: "You still haven't got a clue. Things must first get worse before they can get better." Or more specific: "Things will still get a lot worse before YOU can be better/cured, you no-good, troublesome and troubled son."

My mother's friend who called herself a spiritual healer also installed the same idea inside of me. "You chose your path, and your parents before birth." Funny that is like a get out of jail free excuse

That also stuck with me

I also had a very invalidating mother who clearly hadn't done her own work, and those statements you mentioned...the cop outs...just sound agonizing. I get it.

It's so unfair. They think they can just blurt out some phrase and make it okay . It's further damaging and it's not okay that they use spirituality as a cover up for what is emotionally abusive . I'm sorry you are hurt by her .

It wasn't right for her to push you away with stupid phrases , it was her job to love you unconditionally no matter what you were going through . It angers me how many mothers bring children into the world today with no selflessness.

I feel your pain Dutch . Thank you a lot for sharing . I never heard of someone being told some of the same things that I was told, along the lines of " you chose this , therefore , I have the right to give you no guidance or support , even though I'm your bloody mother"

I'm here with you  :hug:

Good lord, these are chilling. Not just because they're insipid or nonsensical or reveal a stunning lack of empathy or dimension, but because it's impossible to reconcile any of this with "mothering". It's virtually its opposite, a dogmatic insistence on...there's no other way to put it...suffering. On deserving it.

No healthy human does this to others, let alone a mother to her child. Adults can fend off such psychological nonsense wrapped in karma (not always easily, but escape to others & other ideas possible), but children absorb it totally. What child doesn't need and want to believe their mother? It's gospel.

Mine was like this. Encourged, even longed for me to share my problems, then flicked them away with aphorisms, hackneyed quotes or little "jokes" that cut to the quick. She too was all-seeing, all-knowing, and somehow absolved of making sense or practical suggestions or actually doing anything. Though the spiel was different the deluded holiness, utter lack of capacity, and resultant cruelty, was the same. The power of this kind of interference combined with incompetence is a perversion of nuturing. It's hard to describe to people who haven't experienced it, and harder to explain (even to ourselves) the depth or longevity of it the havoc it creates. And almost impossible to forgive.

Coda, 

The power of this kind of interference combined with incompetence is a perversion of nuturing

Well put.

Quote from: coda on August 22, 2015, 01:12:02 PM
Mine was like this. Encourged, even longed for me to share my problems, then flicked them away with aphorisms, hackneyed quotes or little "jokes" that cut to the quick. She too was all-seeing, all-knowing, and somehow absolved of making sense or practical suggestions or actually doing anything. Though the spiel was different the deluded holiness, utter lack of capacity, and resultant cruelty, was the same. The power of this kind of interference combined with incompetence is a perversion of nuturing. It's hard to describe to people who haven't experienced it, and harder to explain (even to ourselves) the depth or longevity of it the havoc it creates. And almost impossible to forgive.

For the bolded part I may never be able to forgive her. She lured me into that trap, time and again. And certainly at the moment this is not one of my goals. I first have to bear witness, to myself most of all, of the horrors she inflicted on me. Maybe if I'm done with that, I can put some energy in forgiving. If I haven't died of old age by then.  ;) I'm not in a rush, that's for sure.

I'm so sorry to hear you and KayFly had to experience the same.
I guess it's not surprising we find each other at this forum.

PS:

Quotea dogmatic insistence on [...] suffering.

Very aptly put. My mom IS a sufferer, and if she's not insisting on me sharing my suffering to her, she'll overwhelm me with her suffering.
It's one of the major 'traits' of her why I think she's is HPD. Drama! Drama is all what she craves. One way or the other.

:hug: and  :thumbup:
Dutch Uncle.

I logged back on to clarify my reference to forgiveness. For me, that grace dwells in an alternate universe. The one where I outgrew and shed her pronouncements instead of interallzing them, the one where I got lucky enough early enough to have others help me disprove to myself. Where I could just shake my head at the sheer stupidity of the past, live uninfected, honest and whole - the kind of life she didn't have and didn't want me to even aspire to because it was beyond her understanding, and a real threat.

Didn't happen. If I can't put it behind me, I'm in no shape to forgive. This is the lingering grief that those great essays by Sandra Bloom address.

Today I remembered another one of 'dear' mom.

I struggle quite a lot with perfectionism. Not an uncommon trait among those who have been abused, I have since learned.

So when I turned to her when I struggled with exams or whatever, she (and I) could well narrow it down to 'perfectionism'. Therapist Mom happy (she had identified a 'leak') and then told me 'to work on it'.  :'(

Has she ever said to me, in whatever situation, "Brilliant!". No, of course not.
Do I regularly get any sort of compliment from her, you know, the 'good enough'-kind? Nah... I could have done better/there's room for improvement.
The closest thing to approval I get from her is: "Oh well, that's your way of doing things." (with a stern face...)

Argghhhh!!!  :blowup:

It's really unfair that she did that. My parents, especially my father was similar.

It's so hard to break the cycle after it being so deeply ingrained in our minds that we must strive for perfection, which is not possible.

I was reading in Walkers book last night about thought stopping, though replacement with gratefulness, and such.

It's so hard to remember that we are good enough when coming from a place of constant disapproval  :sadno:

I keep making lists of what there is to be grateful for, and what traits I have that are good, and have especially been doing grateful work for quite some time. Always making lists of what there is to be grateful for.

Remember you are enough Dutch. I feel your pain. I know how hard it is to fight that critic that beats you up probably harder than your mother did. Please remember you are a huge asset here, just by sharing, and that we care for you.

I hope you have a good day.  :hug:

This thread touches on what's known as "spiritual bypass". It sneaks up on people, 'cause it appeals to the search for answers. When it takes over, people like your mum, Dutch,  become like evangelists of the first rank, forcing their revelations on all and any they can. Like missionaries, they know you're wrong and you just need to see the light (personally, I think they should check their batteries, 'cause their light looks pretty dim from this angle).

One author (Robert A. Masters) defines "spiritual bypass" as "the use of spiritual practices or beliefs to avoid dealing with painful feelings, unresolved wounds, and developmental needs." It kind of flies under the radar as it all sounds so good, so innocent, so pure, so true. For some people It might be all of those.

Ironically, this can become yet another religion--even if it's called "spiritual", it's still a belief system. Before you know it there's another 273 new and improved but true versions. No matter its name, it still masks core wounds under the mantle of the new truth. And the truth can easily devolve into a power trip—but it's soooooooooo spiritual, regardless of what that might really mean.  :stars:

I'm probably a tad biased—having been sexually/physically/emotionally abused by people who shouted their version of THE ONLY WAY, and beat you to prove it was all about love.  :sadno: I was left with wounds that I can't cure, but each day I venture back on the road of healing.  Probably the experience has helped insulate me for when I see and hear the same stuff being trotted out with some new spiritual slogan. I feel so bad you guys have to live with the aftermath of where people use it to avoid their own needs, get confused, and abuse others with their "truth".

My approach is echoed by these words from a song by Iris Dement:

Everybody's wonderin' what and where
They all came from
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
When the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Thank you, woodsgnome. Your words resonate deep within me.  :thumbup:
I'll bookmark the author. Spiritual abuse? Check for me. For a long time I 'went along'. Only recently I've discovered 'Humanism', and joined an active group in my town. I'd say we are agnostics. Simply curious about the 'human condition', the human experience most of all, and trying to learn from it us. No strings attached, either way.

I like the poem too.

Quote from: woodsgnome on August 28, 2015, 05:07:03 PM
My approach is echoed by these words from a song by Iris Dement:

Everybody's wonderin' what and where
They all came from
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
When the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Quote from: KayFly on August 28, 2015, 04:06:06 PM
Remember you are enough Dutch. I feel your pain. I know how hard it is to fight that critic that beats you up probably harder than your mother did. Please remember you are a huge asset here, just by sharing, and that we care for you.

Thank so much to you too, KayFly.
I know I'm on the right way now that my mom is more critical of me, then I am. But it's still a close finish, to date.

:thumbup:

Oh my, Uncle...when you said you were exploring humanism, it hit me--but of course. After all, 2 of the world's greatest humanists were Dutchmen--Desidirius Erasmus and Baruch Spinoza. And they were both run out of their respective churches for asking a few too many questions. One of Erasmus' books had a perfect title--In Search of Folly, though if I recall it's a tough read as it's sort of a parody on the church and government hypocrites he knew. Everybody then would know who he meant, but modern readers need to know the "back story" to have it make perfect senses. So you're in splendid company with these fellow Dutch gentlemen. Congratulations. :applause:

----------------------

Oh, by the way, the book I referred to by Robert A. Masters is titled, appropriately, "Spiritual Bypassing--When Spirituality Disconnects Us from What Really Matters", published in 2010.

n.b.i think maybe this should be a new thread or something but i don't know how to do that yet. 

interesting the term 'spiritual abuse' has come up here.

what you said Woodsgnome; 'truth can easily devolve into a power trip... but it's sooooooooooo spiritual'. yup, it all ends up being about power, taking power from people and exerting your own over them to feed your need... and if you can get away with doing it for God, you're on to a winner.

it is a thing that is not often talked about, but having experienced deep, longterm spiritual abuse i would say it's right up there with the others. the result of it for me, apart from the cptsd, is a total abhorrence of all things religious, tho i think i still believe in God, and stuff. i would never ever go back into a church/religious setting again and the only way i can avoid triggering is to have gone total nc with anyone connected with the cult past or present. (like, that totals everybody i know virtually).

i have heard it said (can't remember what book it was in) that spiritual abuse often presents mental health symptoms that can be virtually indistinguishable from those that result from sexual abuse by a primary care-giver - because of the deep trust/betrayal issues?

i have even been asked in counselling if i was sexually abused (i wasn't as it happens) because of the ways i was presenting. to the extent that i had the slight feeling that the counsellor didn't wholly believe me. but i might have imagined that.

i sometimes find it hard becos i don't know how to communicate this stuff with other people. it feels like a kind of a no-no subject and anyway i feel like people will think i was stupid for having got taken in so much for so long.

This thread has again made me think about defining -- and therefore validating -- emotional abuse.  Like Dutch Uncle, I have a mother (I see her as undiagnosed NPD) who appears concerned and generous.  She likes to give presents, or at least she likes to seem to give presents.  And she expresses constant worry.  I went no contact more than two decades ago (yes, really) and have had no regrets about maintaining the silence.  But I still get messages about her concern,  in writing or from the one family member I talk to, usually accompanied by offers of "help" to deal with my "problems" stemming from anger that I somehow don't feel and have never dared express.

So only recently have I recognized that the messages of concern are manipulative in  two ways.  One way is the implication that I'm not all right.  The other is that I'm responsible for her emotional state. 

On my good days (well, not that good if I'm hearing these messages), I think of this pushback as the last refuge of her losing battle to control me.  But then on other days, she starts winning the battle, usually triggering an EF.

I've been trying to get angry, read Walker's explanation of "angering," tried to do thought stopping.  But the messages still get through, triggering anxiety and more EF.

I'm amazed at how hard this process continues to be. 

Quote from: woodsgnome on August 28, 2015, 07:57:05 PM
One of Erasmus' books had a perfect title--In Search of Folly, though if I recall it's a tough read as it's sort of a parody on the church and government hypocrites he knew. Everybody then would know who he meant, but modern readers need to know the "back story" to have it make perfect senses

Praise of Folly is a nicely written small book (about 100 pages). But yes, an annotated version is recommended as it's full of references to "the classics", Greek and Roman writers, philosophers, statesmen, and Catholic saints etc. The writing style itself easy and light, as it is 'written by' the goddess "Folly" herself.

Although I'm careful of my privacy, I think it's safe to say I live in the city where he is referred to in his Latinized name. (so please don't mention that one literally  ;) )

Thanks for reminding me of both Erasmus and Spinoza. I should catch up on them, and reread Praise of Folly.  :thumbup:

Quote from: Southbound on August 28, 2015, 10:36:08 PM
Maybe I did, I don't know. What I do know is that I've since chosen to stay right away from them, and to have more nurturing people in my life.

I'm sure I didn't choose them, but like you I now know that I do choose to stay clear of them. How could I have chosen the abusive environment I grew up in? I'm not an idiot, nor a masochist  ;) .

Quote

Quote from: Dutch Uncle"Things will still get a lot worse before YOU can be better/cured, you no-good, troublesome and troubled son."

This is all it takes to screw up a life: "no-good, troublesome and troubled", without all the new-age fandanglement thrown in. Wore the same label myself in my FOO... and it's hard to shake off, isn't it? I mean, I'm the only one who's been consulting therapists for decades, and is now registered disabled on the grounds of mental illness.

I share your pain  :hug:

so know what you mean about not having "a true self to return to", Southbound.

and by the way, from th little bit of contact i have had with you, i'm pretty sure i do like you. just so you know. :bighug:

Quote Southbound (referencing "choosing our past"):

"Thing is, we were in it before we knew it, weren't we? Books (and people) tell me my true self is a thing of wonder, and when I get to that I'll know it myself. Unfortunately it isn't a case of get back to it. I have no 'true' or unadapted self to return to. I literally don't know how else to be."

I echo that, Southbound :thumbup:. I'm coming off a severe flashback that's knocked me for a loop the last couple days, but your well-put observation got me thinking. Thank you!

Maybe it's a good thing not to "get back"? Especially if there really is no place to get back to, as you say. I'd love to have a "good" time to go back to. I don't. And I hate that. I grieve it and cry about it.

But I also recall what another poster said here once; something to the effect that if we really are suffering from "arrested development" as a result of this  cptsd crud, perhaps we really don't have a second childhood, so we just make this our first. I flipped a cartwheel when I read that comment.

Sure, it doesn't change anything past. Does nothing to cure any of its hurt. Perhaps it's a fiction--and maybe that's another way to take it, too. It's in the cover of an old closed book and it's now just a musty forgotten script; deserves to collect dust. Meanwhile we're writing the new one, and the second childhood is in that sense the first.

Geez, that sounds almost like those done-over cliches about finding the "true self"  :blahblahblah: you referred to, but maybe that doesn't matter, either. Maybe all the beliefs can be pitched, as we craft the new ones here in our "new" childhood. Time to explore and celebrate/play with our fresh discoveries.

My preference is for no beliefs, period, as they failed me the first time I read the book. No dogma to tie me down, or certainty that this is a better way, even. As I write the new pages, it feels better than those in the old book; so I'll keep this one open. When I experience setbacks, they'll hurt as bad as ever if not worse, but now I have some tools to keep creating the new story, too. Just travelin' along, I guess.

So I've one final rant, brought on by what both DU and Southbound said referencing that crock of "you chose your parents"...you know where it goes after that.

I had a friend who was sooooo curious when she detected that I was very reluctant and/or plain uncomfortable discussing anything touching on childhood. And then it happened, she started in on "you know, you chose your path..."

I.........DON'T...........CARE........... :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

I don't care if I chose any of it 1,001 times over. Don't care if she did...don't care if you did. It means nothing.

Rant over--I could never fully express how angry that makes me, the throw it back on the poor victim mental garbage; make 'em feel better to know they chose it all...last call: WHAT UTTER ROT!

----------

Off the rant, thanks again Southbound, until I saw your post I was still reeling from that flashback I referred to. I didn't want to see any of this, didn't want to read about acceptance, understanding, out of the storm, any of it. But I wandered over here, your words resonated, and somehow I can feel again. You fully deserve this:

                            :bighug:

Quote from: woodsgnome on August 30, 2015, 11:46:59 PM
So I've one final rant, brought on by what both DU and Southbound said referencing that crock of "you chose your parents"...you know where it goes after that.

I had a friend who was sooooo curious when she detected that I was very reluctant and/or plain uncomfortable discussing anything touching on childhood. And then it happened, she started in on "you know, you chose your path..."

I.........DON'T...........CARE........... :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:

I don't care if I chose any of it 1,001 times over. Don't care if she did...don't care if you did. It means nothing.

Rant over--I could never fully express how angry that makes me, the throw it back on the poor victim mental garbage; make 'em feel better to know they chose it all...last call: WHAT UTTER ROT!

Well said.

Woodsgnome i have been thinking of u over the last few days becos you were in such  pain. i am glad you are back.
i want you to know that becos of something you posted a while back in a different thread, i had a bit of a light bulb moment this week and it has moved me a bit further on the path. so really i want to say thank you. i put a poem in the poem section today that came out of it, that kind of sums up what i saw. it's the first time in my life i have felt able to even contemplate looking back at some very terrifying, very deep hurt. but maybe out of this i will be able to find a Self. thank you so much for your wisdom.

southbound  i remember a year ago sitting in my tiny lounge in my tiny flat wailing with gutwrenching grief at all i had lost. and like you i have had to learn to take joy in little things like:
the fact that my room faces south so i get lots of light ( i neeeeed light); my flower pots with bright bright red geraniums on the patio, my pair of resident wrens, a good red wine, a comforting hot shower, nice colouring pencils and a sketch pad to play with, my mum's little vase, you know, things i wouldn't have even noticed much before. but they kept me sane, (even if can't quite be sane enuf to wash the pots every day or hoover the carpet as often as before....)

Quote...Arpy1 to woodsgnome:

"becos of something you posted a while back in a different thread, i had a bit of a light bulb moment this week and it has moved me a bit further on the path."

Thanks, arpy1...I always have songs floating through my head, and your post reminded me of one--it's over at the "music" section...I hope it speaks to what you're going through.  :hug:

thank you :hug:

I'm not real sure of myself at present but I like the language you guys use especially in some of the responses. just to contribute a little my mother wasn't much of an academic but she use to say things like" jealousy a curse but pregnancy is worse " ummm what was another favorite " I brought you into this world I will take you out of it " things like that were really corrosive to my emotional well being and I even recall drawing obsessive love hearts with the intials of the girl I liked at school in the heart , my decrepid mother joined in momentarily with my brothers and sister to tease me , at other times she would be distraught and blubber that she loved us kids but it looked like she was about to commit suicide , It boded well with her saying I'm sick of you bloody kids , I have come to learn that she is in denial about the fact she has mental healthy issues herself. she recently had a stroke an I was blamed for the deterioration in her health , I felt a pang of pity that one feels when an animal needs to be put down and I don't even feel he slightest bit of guilt about that. as far as I'm concerned she provided me with food an shelter but aprt from that it was just rubbish

I do know the helplessness and despair one feels when they feel like their unsalvageable as the primary caregiver is more toxic an basically only has that too pass on. I also so hate it when people say that you hae to forgive the perpertrator, I find that I hae to protect myself by fully accepting the toxicity of the person before I can encounter them again or those of a similar disposition and its also confusing because if you smell something bad you pyshically are repulsed with emoinal abuse I have come to realize that my mind switches off or I go into a self protected aversion, I don't shut down and go numb like I use to , its improving , sorry to hear about your distorted interactions with your caregiver dutchy.

Quote from: david r on September 29, 2015, 07:53:22 AM
I'm not real sure of myself at present but I like the language you guys use especially in some of the responses. just to contribute a little my mother wasn't much of an academic but she use to say things like" jealousy a curse but pregnancy is worse " ummm what was another favorite " I brought you into this world I will take you out of it " things like that were really corrosive to my emotional well being

Ughh...  :sadno:
What harsh and devaluating remarks. Disgusting.  :thumbdown:

QuoteI also so hate it when people say that you hae to forgive the perpertrator, I find that I hae to protect myself by fully accepting the toxicity of the person before I can encounter them again or those of a similar disposition

Well said.  :thumbup:
It does take quite an effort, no?

Since I see you are new to the board I want to say  :wave: and welcome, david r !

Thanks for sharing and your kind words for me.
:hug:

David, ditto what Dutch Uncle and Southbound have said.

For me, this forum offers the only place I've known where I can tell my story without cringing as I wait for some invalidating remark.  "Surely it can't have been that bad" or "Maybe it will get better if you try a little harder" or (maybe worst) "you should work hard to let it go."

To have a few people, however scattered across the globe, who "get it" has truly helped.  I wish the same for you.

Divorce. A son's perspective.
***possible triggers***


My parents had a rotten marriage.
One of my childhood memories is that I see myself* sitting on the floor, upstairs, mom being in the bathroom putting on make-up and me saying: "you and dad are going to divorce, aren't you."
I was in  primary school, probably around the age of ten. Twelve, max.
( *: Funny that. Is that already an early childhood dissociation? Because I do remember it (now, and already for decades) as an 'out of body experience'. )

My mom consoled me that this was not the case.
In hindsight (very long hindsight) she gaslighted me. I'd now say. They did divorce, 25 years later, 15 years ago.

Another childhood memory: First day at secondary school: I was not there. Had to go with mom and dad, sis(17) and bro(16) to Family Counseling, first appointment.
I was given an excuse, by mom, why I wasn't there the first day. All the other kids had their second day, not me. "I had to go to the dentist", I said. "Yeah, right!  ??? ", I imagined the others thinking, meeting my classmates for the first time. Probably they did.

Family counseling was abandoned, before it had really started. The 'problem' was between mom and dad, there were no family dynamics identified, in the few sessions we did. So I was told. I do not have much recollection of those sessions. It went all over my head I guess, a 12 year old, a child.

A tense FOO, a tense childhood.
Never realized it. I took in what was offered I guess. That's the way it was, this was normal. Well, the Norm at least. My Norm, Our Norm, the FOO's Norm.
My parents Norm.

And so it went on. Forever.
Until mom phoned me she needed to see me, and when later a car drove into a parking space just outside my window, an unfamiliar car, I knew: "that's mom, in a car that's not 'theirs', she's divorcing."
And I was right. (honesty demands to say I'm not sure if I had that realization even before she got out of the car, or only after. It might well have been both, I guess, with the confirmation following her getting out of this alien car)

When she told me, sitting on my couch with me next to her, that she had left dad and now stayed in their caravan, I felt relief. Deliverance. Validation. I had been 'right' all along. "Theirs was not a marriage!". Said the bachelor.
I couldn't utter those words, express my joy. For my mom was sad, and she made it clear that no decision had been reached on future developments. Yes, she had left. But had not broken off her marriage. They would continue to "work on it".
That lasted two and a half years. We kids were kept out of it.The subject was taboo.
Divorce papers had been signed at some point.
Didn't change much. They continued to attend therapy and counseling, together (possibly also individually) after that. That was shared. Somehow that was not taboo.
Their 'togetherness' was emphasized, celebrated, held in the highest esteem. Or so they pretended. I never bought it. Their 'split' was obfuscated by taboo.
But their fake connectiveness was all that was ever on offer.

Not their anger, not their rage, not their disappointment, not their betrayal they must have felt (well, for my dad at the very least). Not their grief.
It was still all fine and dandy in some unfathomable way.
Gaslighting, I guess.

To this day they uphold this charade.
When i asked my dad this year, when he referred to 'her' as 'your mom' as he consistently does, and I had come to understand the absurdity of it, and asked him: "What is she to you, dad?", he fell silent.
After I had let this silence linger a while longer I pressed on. "what is she to you dad? I know she's my mom, but what is she to you? Is she your friend, an acquaintance , your wife still or your ex?"
Silence
"She has turned you down twice. First with the divorce, and then again when you asked her to re-marry her, to which she consented, only to renegade on it, again. What is she for you?"
"Argghhh, I don't want to talk about it, but "ex" is such a horrible word, I can't stand it!"

Mom plays similar tricks. Keeps babbling on about how they still meet and are able to 'square things from their marriage and divorce'. *?
At the same time she expresses how good it is she has divorced.
Well, what's the eternal 'talk about it' good for then?

I know now. It's the eternal need for Drama.
It's too good to have a 'pass' on that one.
The divorce is a source for eternal dramatic supply.

I must say, I respect my father more for his consistent obliviousness for the facts than I do for my mother's consistent ignorance of following through on her decision.
But it's a close call, and they both are at the bottom of the League by any measure.

I love the Seinfield quote. That's me.

Quote from: Southbound on October 03, 2015, 09:28:42 PM
Dutch, your parents sound like a narcissistic mother and what's known as an enabling father:

Yes, I'm slowly, and painfully, getting aware of that fact. Ouch.

QuoteMessing up your schooling because they couldn't manage their own relationship is horrible. You (and your older siblings?) were sacrificed for their counselling, then they abandoned that too. Definition of irresponsible parenting. And it took them 25 years even to begin to clean up the mess, as well as sabotaging the sabotage? Wow.

Thanks. And yes, my older siblings have been sacrificed as well.

QuoteYes. She had (and has?) him well under control, didn't she? I suspect both of them believe the marriage breakdown was all his fault. I get the impression he'd be back with her like a shot, if only she'd let him. That means she's still controlling him.

Oh yes. And his ex loves it. She just gives it enough rope so she can hang him time and again. It's pitiful, really. By both of them.

QuoteJust as long as neither of them is controlling you now. :hug:

I'm fighting my way out.