Out of the Storm

Symptoms => Six Major Symptoms => NSC - Negative Self-Concept => Topic started by: Boatsetsailrose on November 15, 2015, 08:31:43 PM

Title: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Boatsetsailrose on November 15, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
Hi I wanted to share about my perfectionism and ask if others have same / similar

Obsessional thinking started for me in my teen yrs - I'd do rhymes to aid relief of my anxiety -
Lining things up was also prevalent - order

Later in life it's been an issue and I've worked on the compulsive stuff but still a work in progress with mentally trying to order things and what I have to do

I'm noticing lately that I'm getting more obsessive around order again and checking - and checking in my mind things in the future -
It seems the premise is 'if I get things perfect everything will be ok '
I seem to have a great fear of 'things going wrong and getting into trouble '
I want everything to be perfect - perfect me perfect you perfect world - I want to know everything be everything and be perfectly perfect -

Oh the madness of it

I know underlyingly its fear - and I know where it stems from - but changing it - now that's a different story -

How does it get changed ? Anyone have any success or is it a problem for you ?

It's an odd thing because it's not me yet it is ---

Mindfulness does help - and learning to tolerate the feelings of uncomfortableness of non perfection
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Phoenix on November 16, 2015, 01:42:04 AM
Hello!

Just to understand it more... what elements of it feel the most frustrating to you? Just the overall frustration of feeling compelled? Or certain compulsions (like aligning things or checking things) or bigger picture compulsions like being a workaholic due to perfection, etc.

And also - what is the feeling when you don't do the compulsion that you have to tolerate? Discomfort? Anxiety? Have you every in the moment asked why it bothers you or it's a physical feeling?

Feel free not to answer these! Sometimes expanding can help someone.

I definitely suffer from perfectionism and compulsions/compulsive thoughts/etc. sometimes they even seem to be weird superstitions... that being said - the sillier ones of them (aligning items, spacing, symmetry, preferences for certain numbers, superstitions, etc.) don't really impact my quality of life or get in the way of things or cause me embarrassment so I don't mind them. My compulsive harsh obsessive thoughts are a bigger problem for me and - i'm out of work now because of health... as a result of this undoubtedly... - but my being a perfectionistic workaholic is a problem. (Also my perfectionism is hard on my husband because I project it onto him too... luckily he's pretty perfectionistic too so we survive).

Not sure if any of that helps!
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: woodsgnome on November 16, 2015, 05:51:03 AM
Oh, yeah :yes:; perfectionism has been a huge part of my life's puzzle. Or, I hope, was; as I'm trying to learn to accept that it's not only alright to be imperfect, but it's "perfect" to be so.  A perfect paradox (sorry, couldn't resist)!


It's natural to figure that by being perfect we'll be safe. Only problem with that was the results never quite arrived per the expectations. Then the failure to be perfect created even more anxiety. So maybe it's best (perfect) to always try for the best; while realizing that one can stumble, but still find a way?  A better way we have yet to discover. So perfectionism is more like a moving target, perhaps; not a sure destination. Yet still worth aiming for, based on what we've found out about life, about ourselves.

Or, as Alan Watts said once, "One is a great deal less anxious if one feels perfectly free to be anxious, and the same may be said of guilt." Probably that could be said about seeking perfectionism, as well. We're free to want it and it's okay. 

Boatsetsailrose said: "It seems the premise is if I get things perfect everything will be ok." But maybe it already IS perfect; it's good to anticipate a future, but now is as perfect as life will be until then. It takes a lot of self-trust to wander into this new way, though; we're so used to all in life that went awry. And we have to trust in maybes. But, as Watts said above, it also allows us to be "perfectly free." I like the sound of that. 
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: arpy1 on November 16, 2015, 10:13:01 AM
QuoteIt's natural to figure that by being perfect we'll be safe.

yep. if i don't get it right, i am in danger, someone will hurt me in some way. 

trouble is that when i did my best to be perfect and get it all right, it didn't make me safe. it made me less safe.

now that i have failed to be perfect and got nothing (in some people's judgment at least) right, i am no more or less safe than i ever was...

i think wsg has hit the nail on the head. getting it exactly right for those around us equates with not being in danger of something bad happening to us...  it's a survival technique that served us well up to a point. but it has become a prison to us.

the safety i have now, such as it is, is down to the fact that i removed myself from all the relationships where i was getting damaged in some way.  not so much to do with how perfect i am, more to do with how dangerous they were to health.

that's a really helpful insight, woodsgnome, thank you.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Rainydaze on November 16, 2015, 05:17:07 PM
I procrastinate due to perfectionism. I don't want to start something for fear of getting it wrong so I hide instead. When I do have to do something for someone else, for instance at work, I check my work a million times before submitting it. If I make a mistake my first reaction is to feel like the world is ending...it's still always an eye opener when in response people are kind and I don't get shouted at!

Quote from: arpy1 on November 16, 2015, 10:13:01 AM
QuoteIt's natural to figure that by being perfect we'll be safe.
i think wsg has hit the nail on the head. getting it exactly right for those around us equates with not being in danger of something bad happening to us...  it's a survival technique that served us well up to a point. but it has become a prison to us.

the safety i have now, such as it is, is down to the fact that i removed myself from all the relationships where i was getting damaged in some way.  not so much to do with how perfect i am, more to do with how dangerous they were to health.

:yeahthat:

Crazy making, isn't it? To survive growing up you have to keep your tormentor on side, whereas as an adult it's safer to get away from them.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Boatsetsailrose on November 17, 2015, 08:44:26 AM
Yes something about aiming for it but accepting when it isn't
That resonates for me -

I'll try and be productive and accept the feelings when I'm not

My best is good enough

Play is important too ! Tonight I go to Ariel hoop and swing upside down :)
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: tired on December 09, 2015, 01:46:13 PM
I'm like that with conversations with people. If just one tiny part of a conversation doesn't flow exactly right I get depressed immediately and I have to cope with something like a nap or food.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: tired on December 09, 2015, 02:02:18 PM
I have found that lately I let myself indulge in making things perfect and that helps actually. I think when I was growing up so little was expected of me and I was mocked for even trying so what i called perfectionism maybe was more like feeling stupid because I'm such an underachiever .
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Dutch Uncle on December 09, 2015, 02:28:36 PM
Quote from: tired on December 09, 2015, 02:02:18 PM
i called perfectionism maybe was more like feeling stupid because I'm such an underachiever.
This resonates strongly with me.
I consider myself a perfectionist and underachiever as well.
In fact, I have "Stop underachieving" written on a blackboard in my 'study'.  ;D
Above it I have written "Learned Helplessness".

I have an idea the two are linked in my case.
Very critical parents: I couldn't and can't do anything 'right'. There's always something not right. Bleh.

I'm trying to teach myself that what I do is "good enough", at times "pretty good!" even.
And at times there's an "Oops..."
Oh well.
(The latter doesn't sit very well with my Inner Critic though.  :sadno: )
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: tired on December 10, 2015, 09:59:49 PM
i was thinking today about posting something about this.  i think my mood depends on my functioning and whether or not  i did something perfectly.  some days if i work hard, which is not a bad thing to do of course, and i get a lot done and the house looks good and i'm not super bloated and i am feeling like i fixed whatever was broken in my life, i feel really happy. like i somehow got lucky and now here i am with a clean kitchen or whatever else i did.  then maybe i get busy one day like today and i decide to make ten thousand christmas cookies with sparkly icing and the kitchen is a mess and i eat a few cookies and get bloated and also this morning i feel like maybe i interrupted someone when they were talking, and i forgot to message someone, and i have a bunch of laundry piled on my bed.  and i have a vague feeling of depression. i'm a disappointment.  i can't even manage to get through one day and feel caught up.  when will i get caught up.  i clean one part of the house and then the moment i feel like i'm getting somewhere i'm faced with some other crap i've neglected.  maybe this is what happens when years or decades of life go down the drain and you're not just a week behind you're a lifetime behind.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Sesame on December 21, 2015, 01:48:33 AM
Yes, I am quite the perfectionist. I also end up procrastinating to avoid making things that are less than perfect. I make lists of everything I need to do, I'm highly organised. I set out exactly what I will wear the next day every evening. I have a specific order of things I do when getting ready in the morning and I can get easily flustered if I have to rearrange that. I get very stressed when others make last-minute changes to plans or when things are random and done spontaneously as opposed to organised beforehand.

I've found going ahead and trying little changes in my routine and going out of my comfort zone every now and again helped me become more flexible. Don't do it at a high-stress time... e.g. Don't change the way you would do things just before rushing to the airport to catch an 8-hour flight. Do it at the weekend when there's no rush to get out the door and if you forget anything because of deviating from your usual routine, it's not as big of an impact. I slowly realised it is all right to let go and make mistakes.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: dischorde on February 11, 2016, 02:15:54 AM
 :yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:

I procrastinate constantly even though I'm well aware of why I'm doing it. I'm petrified of making a mistake, and probably the worst part of it is that even if I don't get shouted at for being stupid - I still think people think I'm stupid for it which makes me mortified nonetheless. The self-sabotage-so-I-have-an-excuse, see-you-can't-use-that-to-prove-I'm-stupid method.

And then I shame myself for being so stupid to sabotage (and be imperfect) in the first place.

I too was never good enough as a child, and I was told that I was an IDIOT because if I was smart, I would have magically known or done everything I was supposed to do. I somehow internalized this to mean if I wasn't STUPID, I would be PERFECT.

Weirdly enough this has made me mostly an over-achiever (Well, to everyone except for me. *I* am mortified I ruined my gpa by procrastinating senior year so much it dropped by  .09 . Now people will round down and say I got a "3.8" instead of a "3.89" when I had a "3.98", which means essentially I dropped my gpa by twice as much because the first number is all anyone will notice. Yes, I actually care this much about .09 on my GPA and I don't even have any reason for people to be care what my GPA even WAS right now <--- perfectionism everybody!!).

Here's a real perfectionistic doozy I've been dealing with recently:
I feel that "good enough" (read smart/perfect) people only try if they already are certain they will succeed - only stupid people try if there is a chance they will fail because they are so stupid, they think they can actually succeed (where obviously if they were smart they would know they would fail and wouldn't try!). So, if I try and fail, its not that I'm a failure - its that I am clearly an IDIOT because I tried.

Wondering if anyone else has felt this way and have any suggestions for how to convince myself to "try anyway"?

I logically know that the above thought is totally batty and truly successful people have failed constantly and don't consider failure a useful tool. But my inner critic doesn't care.

Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Pieces on February 11, 2016, 09:05:06 AM
Compulsive thinking for me has always been about venting fear/anxiety, letting some of it out. Or at least , that's how I experienced it. But venting it isn't letting go. It's something that very early on became a way of not dealing with what I was feeling, which in the past was something I needed. It's thinking feeling away, dissociating from them by giving all the attention to thoughts. It's the fear of feeling. Knowing that makes reversing that possible; direct attention at the feeling and getting real close with them. Scary as * at first, I won't lie.

Of course, for a child that feels (deeply) negatively about himself the fantasy of perfectionism (the fantasy of never getting a negative comment/rejection again) is a beautiful dream. I can't recount the number of days (weeks?) I spent (day)dreaming about having a perfect body and everyone liking or even admiring me. It was pretending that then I would never have to feel down about myself anymore. Letting go of that fantasy and accepting that as an adult the only one that can make me feel down about myself is me wasn't easy.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Dutch Uncle on February 11, 2016, 10:31:24 AM
Your probably quite right, Pieces. Yet, I'm not at that place yet. Far from it. But I have the feeling that by finally venting, expressing my fear/anxiety I am removing the barriers that keep me from 'feeling'. It's a phase I guess.

Quote from: Pieces on February 11, 2016, 09:05:06 AM
accepting that as an adult the only one that can make me feel down about myself is me wasn't easy.
But what about the people who are putting me down? There's plenty of them around on this globe. I do agree though that I have the power to 'not feel down about myself', but when loads of pressure is piled up on me, by people putting me down, is a tough struggle.

And so I feel that in this stage my focus on removing, distancing me from those who put, pull and keep me down is a good focus. And in order to get there I need my venting of fear/anxiety: preferably at those who do put me down, at the moment they do it. Well, certainly then, when I still run into those who a have kept at bay.

This is a great thread by the way.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Pieces on February 11, 2016, 12:07:58 PM
Quote from: Dutch Uncle on February 11, 2016, 10:31:24 AM
Your probably quite right, Pieces. Yet, I'm not at that place yet. Far from it. But I have the feeling that by finally venting, expressing my fear/anxiety I am removing the barriers that keep me from 'feeling'. It's a phase I guess.
Sounds good :) Each step, each phase is important, even (or especially) the tough/scary ones, all though saying things like that is always a lot easier when you've worked through them. Even knowing that it's a two step forward, one step back process I always find staying positive during the one step back part very hard, but recognizing the inner critic part there does help a  lot (You see? It'll never work, you'll never be okay, you'll be miserable forever, because that's all your worth!)
Quote
But what about the people who are putting me down? There's plenty of them around on this globe. I do agree though that I have the power to 'not feel down about myself', but when loads of pressure is piled up on me, by people putting me down, is a tough struggle.
My honest answer? People putting you down can only be a problem/painful when their being negative about your resonates with your being negative about you. Even more honest answer? You probably wouldn't experience it as being put down if you weren't busy putting you down. If you weren't busy putting you down you would see their behavior for what it is; it's about themselves. Same way that their experience of you is about them. It's a projection of how they see themselves directed at you. It's not even them being negative about you, it's them being negative. Period. That they direct it at you isn't what it's about.

I don't in any way mean to say you're doing something wrong, because you're absolutely are not, what I mean to say is that when experiencing something like this is an opportunity to ask yourself ''what thought am I believing about myself that makes me experience this this way?''. It's a way to further get clear where you're at in how you view yourself, and how you treat yourself based on that. Now that's extremely though to do when the hurt has been hit and you're properly feeling down. It's probably the last thing you feel like doing at a moment like that. But maybe a while after.
QuoteAnd so I feel that in this stage my focus on removing, distancing me from those who put, pull and keep me down is a good focus. And in order to get there I need my venting of fear/anxiety: preferably at those who do put me down, at the moment they do it. Well, certainly then, when I still run into those who a have kept at bay.
I have found that to be a great focus, and one I needed to create a space safe enough to work on myself. At one point I just couldn't deal with people anymore, in any way. I couldn't face anyone, even with all the medication. How to explain something like that to anyone? When the thought of being seen and/or having to talk to anyone 'simply' debilitates you? I think I would have the same success if I tried to explain someone that one time sneezing gave me a three day anxiety episode.
Quote
This is a great thread by the way.
Sure is!
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Dutch Uncle on February 11, 2016, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Pieces on February 11, 2016, 12:07:58 PM
I don't in any way mean to say you're doing something wrong,
None taken. Thanks for your thoughtfulness though. :)

What you say resonates well, so thanks.  :thumbup:
I'll get there one day, I've come a long way already.  :yes:
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: betamax524 on February 12, 2016, 06:27:18 PM
I have the same problem as well :~0 Growing up, I was the only child in a house full of busy adults, and most of them were emotionally distant, so I turned to people at school to get the validation I needed. Problem was, they quickly labelled me as a "gifted child," and started placing all these high expectations with me, so I cam to associate validation and achievements with attention and "love." (It doesn't help that my usually distant family would pay more attention to me when I bought home medals.)

However, over time, this lead to me being extremely afraid of failure and the (perceived) inevitable rejection, so I ended up stuck in a vicious cycle of procrastination and stressful cramming-because I was never sure I could "do it right." I still have vivid memories of panicking and crying over month-long projects that I would do the night before they were due, and not having the words to explain to my mother why I just didn't do it immediately. But I pretty much ignored this stress, which meant that come college, I collapsed without some sort of rigorous system/outside pressure to somehow "reign me in."

Currently I'm on a break from school for an indeterminate amount of time, and this has helped me relax a lot, but at the same time my perfectionism has seeped into things I enjoy :~/ It's frustrating to not be able to just do the things I want to do, out of fear that people will reject me. There's a lot of insight in this thread that I'd like to try, though, and hopefully I can bring this up with my therapist when we find a new one! (If you're curious, it's simply a matter of practicality. I'm pretty comfortable with my current therapist, it's just that he works near my college-which happens to be 3 hours away from my house. Bummer!)
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Sceadu on July 27, 2016, 02:46:16 AM
Hope I'm not out of bounds in posting on an older thread, but . . .

So many things in this thread resonate with me!   Yes, yes, and extra yes.  I am a perfectionist because being perfect makes me safe.  I was labeled as gifted before I even entered school and always had higher expectations than other students.  Other students were allowed to be average, but if I made any mistake at all, it always elicited a lot of unwanted attention.  My feelings were also expected to be perfect when I went home to my family.  I was socially awkward and different from my peers, so pleasing adults was how I found acceptance.  This was particularly true with my behavior; if I misbehaved, I often found myself receiving disproportionate or merciless punishment because the teacher/authority figure needed to prove that my intelligence and work ethic did not make me "special" and immune to punishment.  Like other posters have said, being mostly perfect became a prison because it only led to continual expectations to be mostly perfect.  I developed OCD in middle school as a consequence.

I can tackle projects with great enthusiasm if I think that I can make them nearly perfect.  This sort of stress-fueled drive is what got me through college (and graduation with high distinction).  I have struggled with my job from the beginning because I was verbally abused by my mentor in my internship, who told me that I had chosen the wrong profession and would inevitably fail.  Every time I have to do a project for work I hear her words telling me that I chose the wrong path and that I'm not good at this.  If I can't do something perfectly, there's no safety, only the risk of drawing attention to my failures.  I feel like my job is a constant exercise in exposing my vulnerabilities, and I often feel like a fraud, because someone will see my work and realize that I am bad at my job and should be rejected/fired.  Academics were always the arena where I could prove that I was a worthwhile person, because heaven knows I didn't have that kind of security in my social life.  It was always that sort of hope, like, high school is awful, and I will get out of here some day, and my grades are the promise that one day I won't be bullied and alone.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Boatsetsailrose on July 27, 2016, 07:55:56 PM
Sceadu
Thank you for posting ...
You have shared some ponient things that I haven't had the words for ( I nearly said wouldn't have the words for and then realised that was tapping into the 'not good enough language of which I am coming to realise is not always the truth ) .
Quote 'my feelings were also expected to be perfect when I went home to my family' I have never thought about this but it is so true, don't express or show yourself no ones is bothered anyway ....

Regarding your job this is exactly how I feel ... Where others get joy from doing things well I just feel rubbish and that I will get found out and sacked ...
My boss , my driving instructor and others say 'the thing is you don't see your abilities ' and I think 'what abilities ' it's like that part of my brain is missing ...
I can't relax in my work and feel under threat
Exhausting
Saying 'I am enough, I do enough does help -
Reflecting on my work day and looking at what I have done and pulling out something (s) that I did good 'enough' and finding someone to talk to about my job and insecurities is important ...
I have to say the perfectionist stuff is dying down now I am back on medication but I don't want that to be the long term answer - I want to be able to 'work with these damages I have ...
It's so core and fundamental I honestly felt I was going mad with this stuff , it was seeping into everything to the point where I was so obsessional and disabled ...

There is hope for sure and from my previous experience working with a therapist seems key
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Sceadu on July 27, 2016, 09:48:45 PM
The interesting thing about the emotions part is that my parents were NOT overtly abusive.  They were invaliding at times.  I suspect this is because they were raised in a very staunch religious culture where displays of negative emotions were seen as almost unholy.  My dad especially had a very cold mother who was not nurturing at all, and I think he reacted negatively to my emotions because he was taught to react negatively to his own emotions as a child.  They say that we are most often critical of people who embody things that our Inner Critic beats ourselves up for.  I don't hold a grudge against my parents because they didn't know what they didn't know.

I became very stressed by school early on.  I do not have happy memories of elementary school and I do not think of childhood as being carefree.  I think that my nervous system was probably overaroused for a lot of my growing up years.  Because I was so sensitive, I would snap at people in my family because that was at least a little bit safer place to reveal my negative emotions than at school.  It didn't help that I lived in such a small town, and my mom worked at my elementary school.  She was sort of compromised as an advocate for me because the adults who were critical of me were often her friends and colleagues.  It was often convenient for my negative feelings and experiences to just dissipate on their own because it meant a lack of confrontation for my peace-loving parents. 

My internship at the end of my undergrad years was far and away one of the most overtly abusive experiences I have ever had in my life.  My mentor was the only person I would see (other than the "customers") all day because it was a very independent work environment.  Five days a week, seven hours a day, it was the abuse channel.  I would dream that I was there and being abused and then get up to go be abused some more.  Someone asked me once what my proudest accomplishment in my life was, and I said it was surviving that internship.  Surviving is a relative term.  I still wish I could be "perfect" enough at my job to feel like no one would abuse me like she did.  Two  years into my career, a "customer" launched a months-long campaign to get me fired for incompetence because of a very misplaced grudge.  That pretty much ripped open all the wounds again.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: movementforthebetter on July 31, 2016, 07:10:34 PM
Yeah, another perfectionist here. First I flunked out of college In college because I couldn't handle the pressure. The second time, a teacher said they'd break me of it but in two years it didn't happen. Instead I had 4 mini-breakdowns and 1 mega breakdown in which campus security was called because they thought I would be violent or self harming when I scored off-the-charts stress anxiety and depression. In reality I was a prisoner of my inner critic and reached the point that everything triggered panic. I graduated dean's list and won a scholarship but was to distraught to enjoy it. I cried the whole night before the award day and wanted to be working on school projects instead of celebrating.

I got this from my uPDM and it's usually her voice that pipes up when perfectionism kicks in. After 24 years of being a loafer my brain flipped and decided if things weren't perfect the universe would end. I realize now that both laziness/procrastination and overambition are reactions to my inner critic.

In my first career job post college perfectionism was practically a disability and I do not say that lightly. I worked countless hours of unpaid overtime on projects to make sure I put forward only my best work. This was awful because I was convinced my reputation and budding career depended on my capable success in a job that was actually a no-win situation in which I was being (and let myself be) exploited.

Now I am not working yet after being laid off and trying to untangle myself before moving on in work and life. I am trying to learn compassion for myself. It is hard but progress is happening. I have only just started to be aware of the inner critic though and I suspect that may be a lifelong project.
Title: Re: Perfectionism -is this a problem for others with cptsd ?
Post by: Joeybird on December 27, 2016, 02:31:16 AM
I was told that instead of being perfect, my goal should be average. I have my own version of what is average for me. Believing that helped me very much.