Out of the Storm

Treatment & Self-Help => Self-Help & Recovery => Ideas/Tools for Recovery => Topic started by: Kizzie on February 08, 2016, 08:29:55 PM

Title: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 08, 2016, 08:29:55 PM
Note:   This thread was originally in the Discussion Topic of the month (Feb 2016). 
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 09, 2016, 12:15:47 AM
I am beginning a practice of meditation ( it's been about 6 weeks now) and have seen great results so far.  The meditation is a variety of Vipassana or Insight Meditation.  This style of meditation is patterned after the original texts by the Buddha (rather than later versions, of which there are apparently many).  I have been attending weekly classes given by an instructor with whom I am well familiar (have known him for nearly 20 years) and whom has studied meditation with various masters for 40'years.  I am giving this variety - known as Lovingkindness meditation- a try to see whether it will stick longterm.

The essence of this practice is that one sends "metta", or kindness to oneself first.  Then, one sends the kindness out to a so-called "spiritual friend"- a person who is always on your side (but not a spouse, child, or best friend- more like a counselor or mentor).  As one's practice gets more advanced, metta is sent to ever-expanding circles and will include family, friends, neutral people, and eventually those whom one does not like.  The phrases that constitute metta are things like, "May I have peace", "May I feel joy", "May I be safe", etc.  Then the same wishes are sent to others.

I have found the practice to be very soothing and grounding, and even though getting in close touch with my inner child has brought up some difficult feelings it has also brought days of calm and grounded energy.

Just thought I would share.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 09, 2016, 05:24:59 PM
I do settle in a bit at first.  The suggestion is to picture oneself in a pleasant setting, generate feelings of uplift and relaxation, etc.  it takes me about 3-5 minutes generally to do this, then I generate metta for myself for around 10 minutes or so followed by about twice as long for others.  Times are approximate as I do keep my eyes closed during meditation.

Hope that answers your question.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 09, 2016, 06:32:06 PM
Excellent!  I look forward to your reflections.  I don't get to meditate until much later today...
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 10, 2016, 12:00:52 AM
Thank you for your reflections and for sharing your own practice.

In my practice, when thoughts wander we do,something called "6R."  It is this :
Recognize - see the distraction
Release  - set it free
Relax- soften
(Re)smile - smile!
Return - send metta
Repeat - just keep practicing!

Namiste-
JDog
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: tesscaline on February 10, 2016, 05:01:39 AM
Didn't someone recently post something about mindfulness meditation having possible risks for those with CPTSD?  I can't seem to find the thread now... I'm probably looking in the wrong sub-forums.

I know that, for me, meditation has had very little benefit, if any, and can even make me feel worse if I'm already struggling with anxiety/EF states. Which sucks, because it's such a go-to for treatment programs that I keep having to re-explain that it doesn't work well for me at all, and repeatedly go through it being pressed on me by various people (counsellors, support groups, therapists, doctors, you name it).  People, even professionals in mental health, seem unwilling to entertain the notion that meditation can increase someone's stress/anxiety levels rather than decreasing them.  They take my reluctance as defeatism or "being difficult," rather than me trying to avoid re-traumatizing myself.  And that's frustrating :(
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Dutch Uncle on February 10, 2016, 06:58:02 AM
Quote from: tesscaline on February 10, 2016, 05:01:39 AM
Didn't someone recently post something about mindfulness meditation having possible risks for those with CPTSD?  I can't seem to find the thread now... I'm probably looking in the wrong sub-forums.
It was hard to find for me too.  ;)
http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=2743.msg20435#msg20435

Quote from: tesscaline on February 10, 2016, 05:01:39 AM
I know that, for me, meditation has had very little benefit, if any, and can even make me feel worse if I'm already struggling with anxiety/EF states. Which sucks, because it's such a go-to for treatment programs that I keep having to re-explain that it doesn't work well for me at all, and repeatedly go through it being pressed on me by various people (counsellors, support groups, therapists, doctors, you name it).  People, even professionals in mental health, seem unwilling to entertain the notion that meditation can increase someone's stress/anxiety levels rather than decreasing them.  They take my reluctance as defeatism or "being difficult," rather than me trying to avoid re-traumatizing myself.  And that's frustrating :(
Perhaps this quote from Pete Walker may cheer you up:
Quote"In my experience, until the fight response is substantially restored, the cPTSD client benefits little from CBT, psychodynamic or mindfulness techniques that encourage us to accept the [inner] Critic." In later recovery, when the survivor has removed the venomous stinger from the critic, these techniques can be quite valuable. Then, and only then, are we able to reconnect with the helpful side of healthy self-criticism"
© Pete Walker, Chapter 9 (Shrinking the Inner Critic), page 183
Meditation hasn't worked much for me either, but I have been angry a lot the last year(s), and vented it. I guess that falls under the "Fight" category as well. Reading this has been validating for me, as I have been a "Fawn" type for most of my life. I now know I'm on the right track by becoming an angry-(not so)young-man. I'll start meditating once I'm done raging  :pissed:  That may take while yet.   ;D
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Dutch Uncle on February 10, 2016, 08:50:02 AM
Quote from: Waterman on February 10, 2016, 08:35:22 AM
You gotta want it to work.
If you don't believe it will work or if you don't want it to work, then it won't work.
Spot on, Waterman.
I don't want it to work, I want my "Fight" response to work properly first.

I'm sorry I 'highjacked' the thread, on a very modest way, and I have also said my thing, so this will be my last entry. That's OK, no worries, I was not planning to post here in the first place.
It's wonderful for all of you who meditate that it works for you. I'm not advocating you or anybody else should stop.
But I felt I should response to tesscaline, as we have a shared (nil)-experience with the positive aspects of meditation. And I feel encouraged by Pete Walkers statement on why at this point in my recovery it might well NOT work, no matter how hard I'd try to "want to make it work".

Peace.
Dutch Uncle.

edit: this post here was a reply to a post that since has been removed. A relevant part of it is preserved in what I quoted. It was specifically addressed to tesscaline and I.
edit2: I see Waterman has left and removed all his posts. I'm sorry about that.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Pieces on February 10, 2016, 10:52:19 AM
What I have learned about meditation (apologies if this in any way rubs someone the wrong way):

I think here is a difference between meditation with a goal (trying something, trying to get somewhere, usually feeling a certain way) and meditating as in simply being present.

If you are visualizing certain things to feel a certain way (like for instance calm) and it works for you than that's a great way to learn stress management. It's obviously better than smoking, drinking, etc your feelings away. But the idea is kinda the same; I've built up an experience which I now want to go away. That is a practice you'll have to repeat indefinitely because you're treating symptom's. Some people call it a healthy addiction, while a addiction can and never will be really healthy; it's something you're stuck in. Simply being would be a way to start the stress from fully happening. Just notice the thoughts. feelings, emotions and let them be without identifying with them. It comes and it go and you the one who is aware of that. You're the space in which those experiences happen but the experiences are not who you are, no matter what the thoughts tell you. If I'm looking at a wall it means I'm not that wall; if I'm looking a my thought I'm not the thoughts.

Visualization is something you do in and with thoughts, when you give your attention to thoughts you're not present in yourself anymore, and I think that's the opposite way you should be going if you want to get back to yourself. If you meditate trying to control the experience you're having the experience has control over you, which is not what you want if what you want is freedom. Freedom would be to be able to do what you want despite having an experience (like stress/fear) that 'says' otherwise, especially if that experience is past trauma related.

Also a lot of meditation techniques involve counting breaths in a way to control to mind, which reinforces the idea that the mind has to be controlled somehow (which is an idea that comes from the same mind you're trying to control). That way meditating is mind/thought dominated. A thought will say ''my mind is very quiet, I'm doing it right!'' and when you believe that thought the mind had more control over you. Mind  = mind; it's produces thoughts. It's only of consequence when you believe in the thought that thoughts have control over you and thát thought also comes from thát mind. It's basically the mind telling itself how meditation should be going and the meditator confusing her of his self with those thoughts. Now of course the difficulty with this is that when you have been stuck in thought/trance your whole life from an early age, your whole system is wired that way and reversing that is difficult and takes a long, long time. But that shouldn't be a reason to not work on it.

I don't need control over my mind or feelings; I need to let go of believing in the thought (identifying) that my mind (or feelings/emotions) have control over me. I need to let go of the image of me being smaller than my experience. If you believe a thought you'll create that experience. If you repeatedly believe a thought and repeatedly create that experience you condition you mind/body to automatically created that experience to the point that you may forget that that experience is not who you are.

I don't want to sound too blunt but for me it really struck a cord when I realized that my problems with how I feel would only disappear when I stop making a problem with how I feel. If I just feel whatever there is to feel. That really got me thinking ''What is the problem with how I feel?'' and for a long time I gave myself a false answer ''It's because there is a thought that says I shouldn't feel this way'' But a thought itself is never a problem, it was me believing that thought and not seeing it was part of the inner critic; the voices of my parents who would tell me to be quiet whenever I would express emotion and then me feeling down about myself, believing that I was wrong/defective for having those feelings.

Coming to this point took a long time and looking back I had a lot to work through before I could even remotely feel present. That's why I understand very well anyone who says meditation doesn't work for them and I genuinely feel sad hearing those practices getting pushed on anyone. It shows a lack of understanding, which is anything but helpful. In fact, if something doesn't work for someone who is in need then it should fall on the one who is suppose to help to find something that does.

Long story short; be careful with not being tricked into trying to feel a certain way to unconsciously please the inner critic. Don't get caught up in believing thoughts about how you should be feeling. Also, do whatever works for you.

True Meditation Has No Goal - Jeff Foster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZQshhxqQSs
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: no_more_fear on February 10, 2016, 04:42:46 PM
I started meditating over a year ago and when I'd been at it for about four months my memories from childhood started returning. At first I thought the memories came back due to an altered state of consciousness brought on by the meditation, but now I think it was simply the act of sitting still for an extended period a day. Has anyone else found that it alters their conciousness? I was meditating a few nights ago and after about ten minutes I felt a shift from the emotional to rational/critical side of my brain. It was as if the left side of my brain took over for the remainder of the night. It had shifted back when I woke up the next morning.

I can understand the reservations that some have about it. I know that personaly I have a deep fear of the present moment, so when I meditate and am completely grounded I can sometimes feel a wave of anxiety. It depends on the time of day, though. I think it's to do with dissociation.

I too do meta meditation. I begin my practise with five minutes of mindfulness meditation, then switch to metta for five minutes, then back to mindfulness. I count to ten and then repeat so as not to begin dissociating. My metta meditation is completely on myself at the moment as I feel I'm th one who needs it most right now!  ;D Has anyone else had problems generating positive feelings toward themselves? I have to imagine my husband, feel the fondness I have for him, and then try to direct it towards myself.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: tesscaline on February 10, 2016, 08:11:07 PM
Waterman --

While I'm glad that meditation works so well for you:

Berating people who have expressed having adverse reactions to a treatment modality, making indirect accusations that they "don't want it to work", and basically blaming them for the treatment's failure, is extremely invalidating and re-traumatizing to those people.  It is reactions like yours to my valid issues with meditation that actually increase my difficulty with it. 

I won't be posting in this thread again either, as it's been made abundantly clear that me and my experiences aren't welcome.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: mourningdove on February 10, 2016, 10:20:12 PM
Check out what Bessel van der Kolk says about mindfulness meditation and traumatized people at 58:45.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NTADxDuhA

Posting this just to say that there are valid reasons that many of us might have trouble with it.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: tired on February 11, 2016, 01:07:55 AM
I made a meditation area with a great bench I bought online but I wasn't using it and I didn't know why.  I realized  that I need to start my day with something that makes my life feel worthwhile. Otherwise I seem to "procrastinate" by cleaning up the house in the morning; but I found that it cheers me up because I feel useful.  So I allow myself to get up and first clean up the house then I get myself cleaned up and then I allow myself to go to my clean meditation area and sit. What to do there is something I've had to think about. Meditation is a way of avoiding doing things sometimes. So I do something: I sit and work on my posture. I light a candle and if the area is dirty I let myself clean it. I'm not picky about it.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 11, 2016, 04:08:27 AM
Hi, everyone-

It seems that what began as a place to voice our experiences about meditation - a neutral ground in which we can discuss experiences, or ask questions, or learn - has taken a sort of left turn into shaming and blaming and so forth.  I want to say that nothing works for everyone, nor should it.  What works for one now may not work at a later point or may not have been a good fit at an earlier point.

I encourage us to be as self and other-accepting as possible.  I heard this quote from singer Lucinda Williams in an interview yesterday (taken from one of her songs, and quoting her own father):

"Extend compassion to everyone.....whether they want it or not."  For us, as we repair our various hurts, I think it also means to extend compassion to all parts of our inner selves, whether we can sense a response or not.  We are where we are.  We matter.  Nobody can take that away.

Just saying..
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: snailspace on February 11, 2016, 08:16:52 AM
http://www.whycantimeditate.com/  This book by Nigel Wellings is helping me understand why I find it so hard especially to befriend myself and do the Loving Kindness.  He explains why it can sometimes feel unnerving to show compassion towards yourself when it was never shown to you.  But I'm sticking with it!
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 11, 2016, 12:45:37 PM
Snailspace-

I looked at the blurb about the book and it sounds like a helpful find.  Thanks for sharing, and I send good wishes to you as you show yourself the compassion that was not shown to you by caregivers. 

Peace-

JDog
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: snailspace on February 11, 2016, 08:38:28 PM
Many thanks Jdog and I wish you the same.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 11, 2016, 09:01:48 PM
I was quite taken aback by the article Dutch posted and have been thinking a lot about it since reading it.  Now that we are working on dissociation in the Book Club I am wondering if for some of us, deeper meditation may be too much because we dissociate and mediating brings the parts into awareness of one another, possibly before we are ready  ???

I am working with a T on bio- and neuro-feedback and in one appointment he mentioned maybe trying some EMDR.  I had two really bad EMDR sessions a year and a half ago which sent me into three day long major EFs.  My current T suggested I may have gotten into my trauma too deeply and quickly without having been taught how to ground myself.  So perhaps this applies to mediation as well I don't know.

All this is to say that I am good with gentle mediation (like the exercise in the monthly recovery exercise), but am cautious about anything more indepth.  I do see there can be benefits to mediation.  When I did some biofeedback with the T I could see on the screen how consciously breathing more deeply and relaxing affected me (came way down out of the red or anxiety zone into the blue and green or calm and relaxed zones).   But t the same time I wonder if some of us with CPTSD may need to go a bit slower. 
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 12, 2016, 12:59:19 PM
I was looking at my onscreen icons on my iPad and found the Wildmind Buddhist link.  Included in it are guidelines for several types of meditation, if anyone is interested in reading and/or trying them.  The Lovingkindness type, which is the one I use, is very helpful for many people who wish to cultivate self compassion in addition to compassion for others. 

I understand why it is important for those of us with cptsd to proceed with caution as we explore our inner lives.  So many ingrained patterns which relate to past abuse or at least unhelpful patterns taught by unskillful care givers.  It takes time and courage to unwind those balls of twine.

But if anyone is ready to look into meditation as a way to begin the unwinding (or try a new way of doing so), I send support and encouragement.  You will know if and when it is a good fit.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: I like vanilla on February 12, 2016, 08:08:13 PM
I have a great deal of trouble with the 'clear your mind, sit and breathe' type of meditation. I find it very triggering for me.

On the other hand, most days, I have an early morning walk that is largely a type of meditation for me. I do not try to 'clear my mind'. Instead, I just let my brain run free flow as I move through the neighbourhood. I do listen to what thoughts are coming up. Those that run like a hamster in the wheel, I try to look at objectively and defuse; usually I discover that these are from my inner critic. I have had people tell me that this does not 'count' as meditation but that really is not my concern. My concern is to do that which works for me so long as it harms no one (and walking through the neighbourhood thinking private thoughts fits that category).

I have also been practising mindfulness which to me seems the opposite of meditation even though people generally argue that to be mindful one 'must' meditate... Meditation, as I have had it explained to me in different contexts, is 'sitting and clearing your mind'. Mindfulness then stands in contrast to it. While practising mindfulness, rather than driving away thoughts, I notice what thoughts I am having. Rather than 'calming myself' (i.e. driving away my feelings) I notice what my feelings are. I then work through or work with whatever the thoughts and feelings are. I have found that, for me, it is more useful to acknowledge my thoughts and feel my feelings than it has been to push them away in the name of having a 'clear mind' and 'centred body'.

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but I have heard in several places that people with CPTSD often have trouble with meditation. I am including the comment that I have difficulty with meditation so that others who might be in the same boat might know that they are not 'weird' or alone. It is a concern for many of us with CPTSD.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: I like vanilla on February 12, 2016, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: tesscaline on February 10, 2016, 05:01:39 AM

I know that, for me, meditation has had very little benefit, if any, and can even make me feel worse if I'm already struggling with anxiety/EF states. Which sucks, because it's such a go-to for treatment programs that I keep having to re-explain that it doesn't work well for me at all, and repeatedly go through it being pressed on me by various people (counsellors, support groups, therapists, doctors, you name it).  People, even professionals in mental health, seem unwilling to entertain the notion that meditation can increase someone's stress/anxiety levels rather than decreasing them.  They take my reluctance as defeatism or "being difficult," rather than me trying to avoid re-traumatizing myself.  And that's frustrating :(

I understand. I have the same concern  :hug:.

I'm often told 'you are holding onto the past, are in denial, and have some ulterior reason for wanting to hang on to the past and the victim role'. NONE of those ideas is true. I just get really triggered by meditation. I am lucky, however. I found a new T about a year ago. He is more interested in listening to me and helping me figure out what works for me than trying to impose some textbook prescription on me. Phew! no more demands that I 'try meditation, it will relax you'.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: snailspace on February 13, 2016, 08:25:45 AM
Sorry to hear tesscaline and I like vanilla.  Same happened with me with an incompetent therapist/mindfulness teacher.  Because I couldn't come up with feelings on demand the mindful way I was subjected to similar comments - blaming me for not being "open and "willing" etc.  It seems as if throwing mindfulness as the new cure-all into the mix assumes the recipe will work.  I do practice meditation now and again at home, for 10 - 20 mins but alone which is what I can manage.  I'm too hypervigilant to sit in a group with my eyes shut.  I'm glad you have a therapist who respects your needs I like vanilla.  I think that is truly mindful rather than imposing a prescription onto you in a mindless one size fits all approach. 
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: no_more_fear on February 13, 2016, 01:35:21 PM
Quote from: Kizzie on February 11, 2016, 09:01:48 PM
Now that we are working on dissociation in the Book Club I am wondering if for some of us, deeper meditation may be too much because we dissociate and mediating brings the parts into awareness of one another, possibly before we are ready  ???


I'd been thinking this myself, Kizzie and I'm very glad you said this as I now think I was right to have reservations. When you say deeper meditation may not be the best thing, do you think that five-minute meditations, or something similar, may be better, then?  That way it would be lighter, as you suggested.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 13, 2016, 06:16:39 PM
 I am good with gentle mediation by which I mean practising breathing and relaxing the body.  My T explained that when we breathe shallowly the lack of oxygen in the bloodstream sends a signal to the brain that we are in a distressing situation and so we go into reaction or poised to react mode.  By learning to breath more deeply, we bring in more oxygen to our bloodstream and change the signal (I.e., Ok, getting enough oxygen, things are good so I can relax). 

In my sessions thus far though he didn't suggest that I try and  my mind or anything, just focus on breathing and watching the screen.  Thinking back I realize that having that screen to watch had something to do with being able to focus on breathing. In the past when I've tried it on my own there was so much chatter going on in my head I couldn't get past it. With the biofeedback I was able to better focus on my breathing and let the chatter flow in the background and then quiet -  not altogether, but definitely it decreased.

So all this is to say I am good with practising breathing (gentle meditation) as I clearly saw that it works and I have a physiological explanation of why and how it works which is appealing.  I haven't  done well with practising in my own (the chatter!) so am considering buying a biofeedback device to help.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 13, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
Interesting tidbit - I just checked the Index for "Coping with Trauma Related Dissociation" (what the Book Club is reading and working through), and there is only one mention of meditation (p. 370 if you have the book). It's just one paragraph about dealing with isolation and loneliness by connecting to your God or the universe through meditation. Other than that, nothing.  I don't want to read too much into this, but it does lead me wonder why mediation is not discussed as a recovery strategy for those of us who use dissociation as a coping strategy.  ???  Food for thought.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Pieces on February 13, 2016, 10:05:58 PM
Quote from: Kizzie on February 13, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
Interesting tidbit - I just checked the Index for "Coping with Trauma Related Dissociation" (what the Book Club is reading and working through), and there is only one mention of meditation (p. 370 if you have the book). It's just one paragraph about dealing with isolation and loneliness by connecting to your God or the universe through meditation. Other than that, nothing.  I don't want to read too much into this, but it does lead me wonder why mediation is not discussed as a recovery strategy for those of us who use dissociation as a coping strategy.  ???  Food for thought.
To me, the very first exercise is an meditation exercise, to get you in the present moment, to observe instead of being lost in thought. Actively being present = meditation. They just call it something different, same way that mindfulness sometimes get's called ''attention/focus exercise''. I think it's a more practical and suitable form of meditation, a tool to learn to do things differently without going too deep. It's not about how it's called but if it works and the word meditation seems scary for some people..
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: tired on February 14, 2016, 12:45:25 AM
I was thinking, after reading last few posts: Sitting still with just my mind is scary because my mind is the source of my problems. So first I had to get some control over it .  Years of analysis therapy and other things like restructuring my life have lessened the c-PTSD problems so now I can tolerate it. But I still have to force myself to let go of the netflix and other distractions i use all day long.

It helps when I do it. I think I'm at a point where I can benefit if I make myself but it took a long time to get here. A long road of self discipline along with tons of therapy and many life lessons.

My mind is like a monkey. Try making a monkey sit still.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 15, 2016, 09:16:11 PM
I see what you're saying Pieces about mediation being present instead of lost in thought and rumination.  It certainly explains why watching the screen in the biofeedback session worked better than when I try and meditate on my own at home.  It kept me in the present moment instead of being swept up in the stream of consciousness chatter in my mind.

I realize now through this discussion that I do think of mediation as a process of going deeper inside my self.  That's where the trauma resides so it really is scary. Thinking of meditation in terms of learning to focus and be in the present, however, is much more appealing.    :yes:

Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 16, 2016, 03:00:15 AM
I love that reframe, Kizzie! :applause:
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 16, 2016, 04:31:14 AM
Definitely a benefit of discussion  :blahblahblah:    (i.e., increasing our understanding of something)  :thumbup:
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Jdog on February 16, 2016, 12:31:07 PM
Cool.  Discussion does help.  I wanted to say that my meditation practice is not really about taking a deep dive into the self, specifically.  More of a way of giving positive energy to myself (in whatever form I find myself at a given moment) and then letting that spread outward.  The deepening happens eventually, but not because I try to make that happen.  The distractions and mind wandering are accepted and handled gently so that the calm focus can return.  Nothing harsh, no "shoulds."

Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Pieces on February 16, 2016, 01:25:34 PM
Quote from: Kizzie on February 15, 2016, 09:16:11 PM
I realize now through this discussion that I do think of mediation as a process of going deeper inside my self.  That's where the trauma resides so it really is scary. Thinking of meditation in terms of learning to focus and be in the present, however, is much more appealing.    :yes:
I understand what you mean, although for me it's the other way around; I would like to get to where the trauma resides but there is a great big blockade and I can't reach it. I know I shouldn't even want to force it but walking around with this big, black hole in myself gets pretty frustrating.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Butterfly on February 17, 2016, 01:35:24 PM
The thoughts in this thread regarding being in the right healing place makes so much sense and helps me answer the question why any sort of meditation didn't work for me in the past. My healing journey wasn't far enough along and I hadn't found what worked for me - more on this below.

It's also pretty clear there's so many varied forms of meditation practices as there are practitioners! Whatever works for each of us even if that means not consciously meditating is what's important. The thoughts on accepting one another is what this community is about - supporting one another and respecting others individual journey. So many of us were denied a voice and feelings for so much of our life the least we could do for each other is allow it here. Even if we don't agree we can still support one another.

Pieces, what you say also about visualization helps me answer the question why some of the guided meditations I come across irk me so much. Thank you so very very much! Visualizing the physical or being guided along a visual journey isn't what I need. I'm plenty familiar with how to disassociate and I think this is how visualization meditations feel to me, like just more disassociating. That's also a similar point you raise Kizzie about disassociating and I so agree.

Also the meditations to try to change my thoughts to positive don't work because I believe all my full range of feelings are valid and are simply my body's signal that I need to give attention to something. I've long ignored my body's natural signal until it got my attention in a very real and physical way that I could no longer ignore. What I do enjoy and need very much is being present with feelings, grounding, really getting in touch with feelings, allowing my feelings and thoughts, not to try to change them but to listen to their message.

Vanilla, what you describe in walking with nature is so nurturing and I love that for healing. It's very grounding and present in the moment. This may be similar to something I came across on walking meditations. Examining thoughts objectively sounds like it might be related to the practice I found a few weeks ago called RAIN to get in touch with and validate ones feelings and thoughts. That's helped my recovery as well.

Monkey mind! I so relate. It's difficult to focus with such a jumpy little bugger! My mind will spin at such speed. It has helped to calm my body some with deep breathing and simply relaxing not to control my spinning mind but to better pay attention to it and help make the spinning thoughts productive and meaningful. I tend to ruminate endlessly about situations I wish I'd handle better or to plan for encounters with uPDm. This wasn't helpful and impacted my physical health.

My T suggested riding my stationary bike and using my HRM see my heart rate rise but then to stop, do deep breathing and consciously bring it down. Is this similar to what biofeedback is like Kizzie?

So much of the thoughts in this thread will help me find guided meditations that work better for me and I thank each and every one of you for your input and sharing all your experiences!
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: Kizzie on February 17, 2016, 07:53:42 PM
I think riding a stationary bike and then stopping would be a form of biofeedback Butterfly, good idea  :thumbup:   It's a concrete example of how deep breathing brings down your heart rate, and perhaps even of the effects of having more oxygen in the bloodstream (feeling calmer after a workout).  Thanks for telling us how beneficial it has been to have so many points of view/experiences to add to your understanding, I agree completely!   :hug:

Pieces, I hear you about wanting to get behind that wall and I agree, it is frustrating!!  We do need to get behind it to get at the trauma and deal with it, I just don't want to find myself blowing through the wall and tapping right into all of that through the type of deeper meditation techniques I was envisioning. For me it's too much at once (as  when I tried EMDR). 

Hopefully this won't take the thread sideways, but I have been wondering if neurofeedback has a similar effect to deeper forms of meditation.   My T did a brain mapping session two weeks ago and identified certain areas that are over-aroused and others that are under-aroused.  We will be starting some training to calm/stimulate those parts with the end goal of teaching my brain to work more fully and thus, effectively.  And perhaps this is what some forms of deeper meditation strives to achieve - building more neural networks in areas we may not use enough,  decreasing the intensity of others (calming them)  by having more options in what/how we think?  Changing the default settings so to speak (rather than default to fear/anxiety, we can make new settings that involve a more balanced perspective?) 

Okay, time to get out of my head and do something physical lol.  :stars:
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: woodsgnome on February 20, 2016, 05:24:41 PM
I don't really meditate but I meditate all the time. Whoa! What's this? Be patient; I'll try and explain. Short of the explanation, this can be summarized by sharing my view that meditation is a state of being, not one of doing or action; although many actions/techniques can positively interact with and enhance one's being.


I sense that my inclination to meditate was destroyed in childhood by religious teachers who sought to pound their version of spiritual truth into me. Not having a well-grounded or supportive FOO background, I may have been especially vulnerable. Regardless, my confusion and hurt was heightened by the fiercest abuses being shrouded in the religious/spiritual language that accompanied it (e.g. "we're hurting you because god loves you"). The wonder is that I even made it past adolescence without total collapse. Or did I? Not sure; moot point anyway. This seems related to what's called 'dissociative intrusions', where one memory bleeds into and/or overtakes another and gluts whatever else is being experienced, such as meditation.


Nowadays, I don't seek to meditate, but as I look around, I realize that I live my own form of meditation. I live quite peacefully and it shows. Over the years I've explored all kinds of meditative techniques, mantras, chants, postures, breathing (difficult for asthmatic), this/that/other. Some of them I gravitated towards, even; but all of them tended to renew my terror—even if I followed the instructions, I feared failure that I'd ever get it, or that I'd screw it up, or 'someone' would hurt me for doing it wrong.  Memories flow in of beatings, scorn, ridicule, and worse from those first 'teachers' on their own twisted path. Those associative monsters easily filter into any meditative technique I've ever tried.


So when I say that I don't meditate but actually do so all the time, I guess what I mean is that when I view my life's path as a whole, a lot of it was built--inside and out--on just living/being in a meditative fashion, even if I didn't consciously call it that. The outside example is easy—I found a way to live peacefully, in my cabin in the woods. Yes, it involved getting away, literally, from people; and yes, it's part a denial and escape in the manner of a true 'freeze' sort that Walker would instantly recognize. And I'm also done beating myself up about having chosen that option. A very harsh lesson came with accepting that, though; it's taught me that so many cptsd symptoms still travel with me daily.

I admire and encourage everyone to find a meditative scenario they feel speaks to them and enhances what speaks to and from the heart. No matter what it's called.
Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: I like vanilla on February 24, 2016, 04:02:12 PM
Possible resource(s): Yesterday, the Spartan Life Coach (aka Richard Grannon on Youtube) posted a new video where he spoke about the problems that people with CPTSD can have with affirmations. These are different than medication but I think the problems that some of us with CPTSD have with affirmations overlap with the problems we might have with meditation.

In yesterday's video, SPLC reminded that he had posted an earlier video for meditation with CPTSD. I have looked it up. It was posted on August 5, 2014. The SPLC gives some ideas on why meditation can be problematic for some of us with CPTSD and some direction on how to approach meditation so that it can work.

[one note of caution: Grannon uses swear words, including several 'f-bombs'. If these words are triggering to you then you might wish to avoid his videos]

Title: Re: February 2016 Topic - Meditaton
Post by: I like vanilla on February 24, 2016, 04:03:04 PM
woodsgnome: words of wisdom. Thank you!  :applause: