Out of the Storm

***possible triggers on Domestic Violence, nasty divorces, mentally ill partners/family***

The importance of being a victim, and knowing that you are.

A meeting with friends a few weeks ago has spiked my interest in this subject.
I think most of us here have experienced "blaming the victim" attitudes in those we thought would be part our support-group, and other factors that make it difficult for us to even accept we have been a victim, or even accept we still are, so many years down the road.

A friend of mine has been going through a really hard time for years now. Long story short (and I'm thus cutting a lot of corners here): His wife went psychotic and completely isolated herself, and after a long struggle he divorced his wife in absentia. His wife simply never replied to any mail, registered mail and didn't show up in court. This process took years, off course: no court will easily divorce a couple with one of the partners not present in any shape or form. She was probably represented by a state-appointed lawyer who never even got to see or speak to her, as she never responded to any of his/her mail either. (I don't know all the legal aspects of this affair)

Only a few weeks ago I learned that at some point in time his wife beat him up, and also a friend at who's apartment they were staying for a while.
That's Domestic Violence.
Yet nobody called her out on it. She was already in a bad mental state at that time, so in a sense it was "shrugged off". A "she needs help, not rebuke" attitude. Possibly quite rightly so.

But I see now (or at least I think so ;) ) that one important part of the equation is missing: Why did these guys not see it for what it (also) was: Domestic Violence, and them being victims ?
Most probably they still don't see themselves as victims. I know for a fact they certainly view the (ex-)wife as a victim of her disease (which is quite probably true) but somehow this exonerates her, with the result they can't view themselves as victims. If there's no perpetrator ((ex-)wife is "besides herself" after all, so there's no 'real' agent/agency to be identified) how can one be a victim?

And I wondered, entered fantasy-land so to speak, what would have happened if they would have been able to see themselves as victims right after they had been beaten up, had gone to the police, filed a complaint, and mentally ill though-not-yet-fully-psychotic wife had been confronted with a police officer showing up at the doorstep saying: "madam, we have had a complaint filed at our office, we want you to come down to the station to get your statement on record. This is a police investigation."?

Ex-husband is still enmeshed with her, can't really 'let go', is pressured to do so, but I think everybody is missing an important clue here: He is a victim. And so is the friend who got beaten up in his own apartment.

Since then I have been working on my own victimhood, so to say.
With the essence being: saying to myself I'm a victim, period. And I must say I feel I'm making progress in my recovery. The urge to JADE seems to have faded. Not gone yet, but much, much less prominent in my thoughts. This includes a much reduced need to speak to my friends on what has happened and is still happening. Since they don't 'get it' anyway, and unfortunately we live in a society that puts such an emphasis on self-care, self-affirmation, self-help, self-expression, self-anything that there is hardly any room for outside interference as being made a victim. If we become a victim, it's again we ourselves have to 'fix' that.
Well, I think I'm slowly coming to a mindset I don't have to fix anything about that. No self-fixing, no self-healing, no self-exonerating, no self-nothing.
Having been made a victim had nothing to do with myself to start with. It was done to my self, which is a completely different perspective on my self in this whole ordeal.
Something along the lines of "I didn't cause it, I can't fix it, I can't cure it."
While that may sound fatalistic (it does to me as I type that) it isn't in my experience. I have more energy, more positive energy for sure and my days and the world does seem less gloomy. (Which might just be Spring, but lets not rain on my own parade I.Cr.!  :pissed: )

I can't really explain what has happened, or what I do differently now. But I think that by accepting that I'm a victim (which does take an effort BTW) I'm much less preoccupied with ruminating on how I could have prevented it, how I could have made it stop sooner etc. etc. Which frees up a lot of energy for: "How do I go on from here?"

I'm a bit astonished it took me a view on a friend of mine who (in my eyes) is still stuck in a (codependent?) relationship with his ex (and whom I have never heard speaking of him being a victim of his wife's illness) to acknowledge to myself I had some 'being a victim'-work to do myself. To end my own codependent and enmeshed tendencies with my abusers, who have made me their victim.
In a sense, this allows me to leave my victimhood with them, for the most significant part, which leaves me with much less to bear, to carry around.
I think. The process is still fresh, young, early.
But the changes I have experienced over the last three weeks or so are remarkable.

I wanted to share.

Viewing oneself as a victim is something that just about every trauma counselor, every domestic violence support group, advocates against.  Instead, it's encouraged to see oneself as a survivor.  Because viewing oneself as a victim can be self destructive.  Viewing oneself as a victim encourages feelings of powerlessness, self blame, and self shame.  Viewing oneself as a victim internalizes the abuse, and causes it to become part of one's identity. 

It is good to realize that someone else is doing something bad to you.  It's good to be aware that someone else is (or was) victimizing you.  It is good to be aware that this is not your fault.  It's good to realize it to the degree that it helps you get out of the situation and protect yourself.

But it's wholly self defeating to view oneself, to identify oneself, as a victim.  It robs you of your own agency.  It robs you of your own strength.  And it encourages the cycle of abuse to continue -- even if through a different abuser, in a different situation. 

 :yeahthat:

Though I want to 'propose' a caveat: How can I consider myself as a survivor without acknowledging I was a victim to start out with?
I fully accept (or am at least in the process of doing so) that I was victimized, e.g. it was outside my (locus of) control.

At the moment I think I am aware of the very thin line between the two, and as such feel as I'm a koorddanser (https://translate.google.nl/#nl/en/koorddanser) ⁽¹⁾.

As it is for me at the moment, I feel that steering towards acceptance of my 'victimhood' is actually empowering, instead of my previous mindset of "Learned Helplessness".

⁽¹⁾: I'm especially drawn to the translation from Dutch as "equilibrist". Evenwichts-kunstenaar (https://translate.google.nl/#nl/en/evenwichtskunstenaar): balance-artist.

Quote from: Dutch Uncle on March 22, 2016, 06:42:31 PM
Though I want to 'propose' a caveat: How can I consider myself as a survivor without acknowledging I was a victim to start out with?

Because you don't have to be a victim to survive something. 

You survived abuse.  You survived horrible treatment.  You survived betrayal, and hurt, and pain, and suffering.  You survived.

None of that has to make you a victim.  It just makes you a survivor.  :)

DU - Here is my thought.  Anything. ANYTHING that you can look at and see and begin to have compassion for yourself is good. Semantics be damned.  Victim, survivor, target, scapegoat, Call it what you want.  What you call it doesn't matter.  What matters is that you begin to have some compassion and caring for yourself.

This?  Is what we lack. This? Is what we need. We need to care about ourselves.  We have sacrificed our lives in the pursuit of unobtainable love from unobtainable sources and for what?

I cheer you on. ANYTHING that makes you start to feel some compassion and caring for yourself? Be it your friend's story and your most appropriate horror? Whatever can take us over the line and into compassion for ourselves is great and I applaud.

I am so sorry for your friend.  But learning to love and care for ourselves is not selfish, as we have been told. It is what is wrong with us.

We do not love ourselves enough because no one ever loved us so we allow the same cycle to repeat over and over hoping for a new outcome.
And it doesn't work.

Until we get off the merry go round, and say honestly: Okay.  I was never loved.  I think I am loveable. I am not going to hang around with people who treat me like I am not loveable anymore?  We will never learn to love ourselves and have compassion.

Keep going.

Love VF

Quote from: VeryFoggy on April 04, 2016, 06:30:45 AM
DU - Here is my thought.  Anything. ANYTHING that you can look at and see and begin to have compassion for yourself is good. Semantics be damned.  Victim, survivor, target, scapegoat, Call it what you want.  What you call it doesn't matter.  What matters is that you begin to have some compassion and caring for yourself.

To start having compassion for me for all these 'elements' of the abuse. I like it.
Thank you, Very Foggy.

"Victim" is NOT a dirty word....

But in my experience counselors (and maybe well-intentioned, yet ignorant, regular people too) have a real tendency to PREVENT you from calling yourself or your situation that. I myself was very offended that my own counselor would not admit that i was a victim of anything....She kept using the word "survivor" also. In doing that tho, she DENIED and MINIMIZED my life experiences and emotions, the same way that one of my abusers did!  :pissed:

And saying "you survived abuse" almost distances it, as if it's some impersonal thing, "out there", not really attached to your soul. It seems like a partial denial so as not to feel all the feelings that go with it. And I find that way of framing it unhelpful, if not insulting.

If one can truly believe that a victim has no fault in how or why or what they were a victim of, then it shouldn't be such a touchy word. It's OK to be a victim. Just like it's OK to cry. Accepting it can make the next step in healing come on easier and faster.

Quote from: pam on April 08, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
If one can truly believe that a victim has no fault in how or why or what they were a victim of, then it shouldn't be such a touchy word. It's OK to be a victim. Just like it's OK to cry. Accepting it can make the next step in healing come on easier and faster.

:thumbup:  I feel the same way too.

I am new down here and not a native english speaker as i am living in and from México, so for me is difficult to write in english, so i beg you have some patience with me.  Yeah, I totally agree with you: seen myself as a victim had totally change my view on myself, now i don´t waist energy trying to see myself as i haven´t passed trough really tough times. Now i can see myself with a lot of self-compassion for all i have been trough instead of not understanding me and being so judgemental and self-critic with myself because i cannot acomplish what my friends have. I don´t see any problem of seen the life for what it is, if one is a victim, that´s it.  We can start to see ourselves with self compassion (which T also don´t like their clients to be; self-compassionate) That is why i don´t like any T, all they do is brainwash their clients with the new newspeak (see George Orwell 1984) in vogue. The only thing that set people free is speaking the truth.  Hugs from México

Hi Sinforoso  :wave:  and welcome to Out of the Storm.

I'm glad you can relate, and I agree with what you said and have experienced. For me the journey of accepting I have been a victim of the abuse I suffered is new, but the times I'm most self-compassionate are indeed the times I accept I am a victim and developed coping mechanisms as a result that are not that practical at times.
Instead of beating me up over that, self-compassion works way better, it is far less stressful.
Still, it takes an effort: my 'routine' tends to be beating myself up over it.

I'm not a native English speaker either.  :hug:
To me your English looks fine.

I hope you'll find the community and site of aid in your journey. Our Guidelines for All Members and Guests (http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=1616.0) are here to ensure this a safe environment for you and it will give you an idea of the community we create with each other.

Dear Dutch Uncle, Thank you for reminding me of the "I didn't cause it" principal. The first time the other members in my Women's Survivors Group told me I was a victim acting out of the motivation of fear; it was a revelation to me.

Regarding newspeak and semantics, the first time a therapist challenged me on the use of the words "I had to" I knew what was coming and to squelch his pontificating further I threw my arms up in the air, waved them about histrionically and said "OK, I CHOOOOOOSE to!" He refused to ever see me again.   

This YouTube vid explains (to me) quite well why it is probably a very good idea to keep in mind that I have been (made) a victim: because it will enable me to let go of frustrated anger, and embrace the 'righteous anger'. Which I will feel anyway, perhaps for the rest of my life. (Intermittently, I may hope. At some point.)

Righteous Anger From Narcissistic Abuse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41BKgeUSX48)

Follow up vid: Narcissistic Abuse: Understanding Your Anger (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtyLRA4yTlI)

Peace.
Dutch.

i think it's important for me to realize that i was a victim -- a child of abusive adults who didn't take care of me. Once i admitted that, i could stop blaming myself for what happened. it was not my fault.

Once i got past that, i began to think of myself as a survivor.

Thank you for sharing this. It does resonate with me that the way you are going to court with accepting victimhood is actually an empowering thing, and enables us to stand up for ourselves.
I'll keep you in my thoughts on Monday.  :yourock:
Don't hesitate to tell your story on your experiences, if you want. I take my hat of to you for doing that. :curtsey:

Quote from: tesscaline on March 22, 2016, 06:11:33 PM
Viewing oneself as a victim is something that just about every trauma counselor, every domestic violence support group, advocates against.  Instead, it's encouraged to see oneself as a survivor.  Because viewing oneself as a victim can be self destructive.  Viewing oneself as a victim encourages feelings of powerlessness, self blame, and self shame.  Viewing oneself as a victim internalizes the abuse, and causes it to become part of one's identity. 

It is good to realize that someone else is doing something bad to you.  It's good to be aware that someone else is (or was) victimizing you.  It is good to be aware that this is not your fault.  It's good to realize it to the degree that it helps you get out of the situation and protect yourself.

But it's wholly self defeating to view oneself, to identify oneself, as a victim.  It robs you of your own agency.  It robs you of your own strength.  And it encourages the cycle of abuse to continue -- even if through a different abuser, in a different situation.

Agreed. I worked for years as a social worker. Male victims have been acknowledged for a very long time in my experience & in my culture, e.g. this is my local (Australian ) service for it http://www.oneinthree.com.au/malevictims. So I must admit, when I first read this thread I found it perplexingly obsolete but then wondered if the struggles and pain expressed here may come from a generation older than mine such as baby-boomers who may not have been exposed to info such as that in the link I provided during their formative, early adult years.

In my experience the key to recovery, repairing the damage of past abuse & being less susceptible to ongoing abuse (either from your long-standing abuser or a new one) is not to focus permanently on attributing blame (and perhaps hatred) towards the perpetrator (and I've survived both male and female abusers) but to attribute blame just long enough to overcome my denial/ignorance about being the victim of their abuse ("I was a victim? noble me? No, it can't be, I'm stronger & smarter than that and too good a person"). then it's time to move on to the next step in recovery and take responsibility for the damage the abuse caused; when I was ready to do this I found this phrase such a helpful summary, "They broke it, you fix it." It's so short but contains years of recovery work for me  :)

Imo denial comes in many complex forms and is a real blocker to insights & accepting what abuse happened & the long-term damage it caused. Attributing blaming to the perp was an important but temporary place to dwell, after that all my hard work began! These days perps are long gone but the damage is within me so recovery is all about me & trying to improve my dysfunction (suffering).

Source - 'From Trauma to Enlightenment' by Daniel Mackler and Frederick Timm.

in my own recovery, i can vacillate among the three: i am a victim, i was victimized, i am a survivor.  my mindset and perception of these three venues depends on which part of recovery i'm working on at the time.  when i'm doing inner child work, i am a victim.  when i'm in the process of getting in touch with my emotions and releasing them appropriately, i was victimized.  and, as i continue to grow and evolve as a person, i am a survivor.

i think it's important for each individual to hold dear to what works at each particular stage of recovery, to hold it as long as it works for continuing progress, and to recognize when it's no longer beneficial, and either put it to the side, or let it go altogether.  recovery is such a personal and different process for each one of us, and it's only by being true to ourselves that we are able to feel caring and compassion for ourselves. 

as far as therapists go, there are a lot of unevolved therapists out there, and i feel bad for anyone who has run into one.  i, myself, had the horrible experience with my first therapist ever, and being with her for 8 yrs., of being a victim to her npd (with which i was certainly unfamiliar at the time), and the horrific consequences of that relationship.  however, it was while i was in the process of becoming a therapist myself that i was able to recognize what was going on, and untangle myself from the web she had woven and in which she had entrapped me.  and, one of the greatest things i learned from her is how not! to be a therapist.

but, may i reassure people, not all therapists are sitting behind their desks filling brains with the latest mish-mash of psycho-babble to come down the line.  there are many who are extremely caring and concerned about their clients, and really want only the best for them.  these are the ones who listen, validate, offer realistic feedback, and are knowledgeable guides to help you find your own right path on your journey to emotional health and well-being.

unfortunately, sometimes we need to seek out a therapist who will be a good fit with us.  and that might mean trying a few before we find the right one.  but, when that 'right' one is found, the help given is invaluable. 

so, victim, victimized, surviving, whatever works for you on your journey is what's important.  you don't have to allow yourself to continue being a victim, or to continue to be victimized.  once you realize what has happened to you, put the fault where it belongs, and begin being your own best friend, any words or labels to describe your experience need to come from you.  no one else has lived your life, has shared your experience, or is recovering in exactly the same way.  and, bless our differences and individuality.  as i once heard it said, i learn by listening, not by hearing myself speak.  and i do, indeed, learn from all of you.  thank you.

Going to comment on Flutterby's post, responding to tesscaline. Apologies if I repeat anything others have said.

QuoteIn my experience the key to recovery, repairing the damage of past abuse & being less susceptible to ongoing abuse (either from your long-standing abuser or a new one) is not to focus permanently on attributing blame (and perhaps hatred) towards the perpetrator (and I've survived both male and female abusers) but to attribute blame just long enough to overcome my denial/ignorance about being the victim of their abuse ("I was a victim? noble me? No, it can't be, I'm stronger & smarter than that and too good a person"). then it's time to move on to the next step in recovery and take responsibility for the damage the abuse caused; when I was ready to do this I found this phrase such a helpful summary, "They broke it, you fix it." It's so short but contains years of recovery work for me  :)

These statements make a lot of sense.

Definitely a denier. It takes a long time to accept that something has happened, and even then I can slip back into denial occasionally. It can reach the point that friends can make a statement in exasperation for people they know who are going through a rough time, and i'll respond with a commiseration for those friends, but then my friend will exclaim "I'm talking about you!" It can take a long time for that anger to hit.

In all of it, I am not at all comfortable with being a 'victim'. Ever. For the same reasons tesscaline describes. Its difficult to feel empowered when you feel like a victim. However, I'm not comfortable with the word 'survivor' either. Yes, I was just surviving at the time these things were happening, after they happened, and with the nasty triggers. It could be denial perhaps. I might have survived in the past, and I might need to survive again. But if i'm done with surviving for a while, hopefully i'm living.

Not sure if this makes sense, but I do not see myself as a survivor, surviving is something I have done. I want to just 'be'. I think this embraces flutterby's "time to move on to the next step". Moving forward after the recovery, and then on to something beyond.

For me the point has long been that I refused to accept that my care-givers and my bro and sis were not being good to me. But they all have abused me, and they all abuse each other. This is my dysfunctional FOO, and for me it definitely helps me now to realize I was a victim of their abuse.
Me being the victim here has nothing to do with my person or personality. I think that's key for me to be able to accept I'm a victim. It's hard to describe what exactly the difference is between the two, but there is. For me.

I like very much what Fluttery said on accepting the victimhood just long enough to overcome/outgrow the denial. I think it a step in recovery for me, and perhaps someday the whole idea of having been a victim will subside to the deep nether regions of my unconsciousness.
I'm not sure how and if that will ever work, as for example I once was part of a project, and the 'boss' was an absolute *. (<--- I'm trying to stay civil here  ;) ). Nowadays I think he might be a Narc, but that is besides the point here.
I left that project half-way, basically told him to stuff himself.
If I recall that story, or other do it to me, the anger etc. oftentimes immediately resurfaces, I can even get into a rage. For me this is helpful insofar that I will never ever work for that guy again, nor his organization he is head of. No matter how nice the project will be or how great my co-workers will be. Because I know for a fact that the bossy guy will derail anything he sees fit. What he did there qualifies as workplace-abuse, he disregarded all safety regulations. I bet I could have made a legal case against him. Yet, he was a subcontractor, and the head-contractor was as unsafe as he was. So I'd be fighting an uphill battle, so I let it pass.

Perhaps with accepting that what I went through in and with my FOO will stay with me like the job-thing does. The I don't think of that job I'm fine. I'm not there yet FOO-wise, but I hope it'll come.

personally i feel a lot of conflict about being a victim, about having been victimised, and i relate a lot more to being a survivor. which is mad, becos what do i imagine it was that i survived all those years, if it wasn't those things??

it took me a full year between someone suggesting that i was in an abusive marriage, to being able to even partly accept it. i still have a problem believing that it really was abuse that my husband did.  it took many years to see how abusive the JP was, and to admit to myself that it truly was a cult, and to be able to say that without being overwhelmed with guilt and fear.  it was easier the second time around when the three women in the house i was part of started in on me, but still hard. hard to escape the terrible shameful feeling that i was the difficult person and they were not.  that was all part of the technique they were employing. 

i wonder if i have been truly able to engage with the depth of victimisation that i have been subjected to in my adult years.  it is very hard for me to believe that the people i loved so dearly, and invested in so deeply, really did that stuff to me, that they really did use me and so many others for their own purposes and so deeply abuse my trust. that what they did to me is what has made me so ill now.  how can it be? i loved them. i did what i was taught was right by them as best as i could.  could they really have done that?  how can it be true? there's still a lot of disbelief, which then devolves into self-blame - because after all, if they weren't wrong then it must be me who is.  i'm not sure how to get past this point. it goes round and round in my head still.

surviving is what i do. it's what i have done for decades, when life has been intolerable i have tolerated, when i couldn't bear it i bore it, when i couldn't carry on, i carried on anyway.  to me that is not particularly a positive image. it makes me feel afraid. it speaks of having to keep going, surviving when i had no choices, no way of escape, no self-determination, when all my courage and resilience was all used up, just to keep functioning as the good, kind, loving caring person i was supposed to be despite everything becos there is never a good enough excuse for not being that no matter what other people do.

endurance i have done in spades. it's healing myself that i find so difficult to envisage, to hard to be motivated towards, so afraid to engage in alone. so in that sense i am still surviving, just surviving.  i hate that there is part of me still, even after all this, that wants to find some help, some support, someone who can help me with the courage i lack, the motivation i have run completely out of. and more than that i hate that i can't have that, even tho i know it is out there, that there is treatment, there are professionals who can help, but i can't access that becos i have no money. and i can't get money until i am well enough to earn some. but i can't get well till i get some help. and that really hurts, and makes me very afraid that i will be stuck like this for ever. so i endure, and survive some more, becos as ever, i have no real viable choices.

sorry this is really negative but i am feeling very desperate just now.

My abusers lived according to the rules of the zero sum game. I chose to acknowledge all the abundance they can never take from me. Most of them are dead now and I'm living! Years ago I was filled with such anger I wanted to dig one of them up and jump up and down on their corps 'till it was ground into dust, but she was so evil, she could not even grant me that satisfaction and had herself cremated. If I could get ahold of her ashes I'd use them for kitty litter. Oh, I'm feeling much better now. 

i like that!  :aaauuugh:
maybe i will get to the point of total rage about it one day. not all of mine are dead. the main cult leader is, but to dance on his grave i would have to go to the community's private graveyard... so, not gonna happen, even if i could find it in me to do it.
i guess to feel the anger you maybe have to believe first. believe that yes, it happened, it was wrong and it was done to you. without making excuses for them. 
how do youget to that poiint??

Dutch Uncle

QuoteI was a victim of their abuse.
Me being the victim here has nothing to do with my person or personality.

Great point. That's all I can say.


arpy1

Quoteit took me a full year between someone suggesting that i was in an abusive marriage, to being able to even partly accept it. i still have a problem believing that it really was abuse that my husband did

Indeed. Takes such a long time. I wonder if we will ever fully accept?

Danaus plexippus
What a fantasy :) We all have to take our reprieves where we can get them. The very first time I ever woke up peacfully refreshed after about a year and a half of unsatisfying sleep was when I had a dream about one of my abusers meeting a particularly embarassing end for them. One that would provide entertainment in its retelling. What a turning point when someone elses misfortune provides you with a mirthful morning. Oh boy!

To go into the graphic details that led me to such anger would be ultra-triggering. Maybe someday. At this time the very though of allowing those memories to even speculate about the idea of crossing my mind is gut wrenching . Be where your feet are. Mindfulness. I'm ok now, in this moment. My life goes on. They are subject to an eternity of fiery poking >:D.

***trigger warning***

Quote from: Danaus plexippus on June 28, 2016, 12:29:54 PM
Most of them are dead now and I'm living! 

I wish mine were dead.
The inevitable death of my parents have been looming high, like a sword of Damocles, for ages now.
I remember well that after my parents divorced (which took them almost three years to actually do), my uAsperers 'dad' called me up a year later or so to tell me he and 'mom' would go to a notary/solicitor to have a 'writ' made that they would be allowed to attend "each others" funeral. (I'm sorry about the legal terms, but I'm not sure if they are correct in English (<--- shut UP! Inner Critic/OCD/Aspergers parent!))
I yelled at my 'dad' at the phone. Triggered at first (I think) about te mind-boggling idea they could attend "each other"-s funeral. I mean: One of them is going to be absent for sure! Through no fault of me or any other human on the planet.) but also at the audacity to FIRST speak me on this by telling me they were going to make a 'writ' on this! For crying out loud! Who does such a thing!  :pissed:  Without any consultation to any of their children whatsoever! Good Grief. I get angry and raging again as I type this!
&#%^ !!! There, I've said it.

Now, with NC to 'sis' and 'mom', the whole funeral business is getting even more tricky. At this point in time I'm pretty sure I will not even attend the funeral of 'mom'. Because she is, and has been such a  :dramaqueen: and evil  :witch: . That I will escape her carbon copy of :dramaqueen: and evil  :witch: 'sis' is a bonus.
My TherapistMom will die in my lifetime, or if she won't, at least I will be spared the agony of her funeral. Either way will do. But carbon-copy-sis will haunt me for the rest of my living days, which I do hope will be many. As far as I'm concerned 'sis' may bite the bullet anytime too.

To dance on their graves. It's not beyond me to actually do that. If only silently.

"One of them is going to be absent for sure! " :rofl: Are we venting much?

Quote from: Danaus plexippus on June 28, 2016, 02:52:48 PM
"One of them is going to be absent for sure! " :rofl: Are we venting much?

Strange as it may sound, but I have a hunch if uAspergers 'dad' hadn't used those exact words, I may have even fallen for the gaslighting. In my memory I was even mad about the total absurdity of that line before he could even finish the rest of his abusive remarks regarding the funerals.
I mean: The thought even of disallowing my divorced parents to be present at the funeral of their ex hadn't even merged in my thoughts, ever.
The accusation (as that is how it felt when he bladdered on about his actions he would take to prevent this horror) did hurt me so deep... That he could think that of me...  :no:

Again, I think (but who is to know for sure) that if he hadn't come up with the other absurdity first, I would have been full of (enmeshed) compassion for him.

If he dies last, I'll dance on my 'mom' not having been able to make it. "Look ''dad', for all the trouble you went through, she has let you down. Again. Just like when she pulled the plug on your marriage. Sucker."

PS: Yes, it feels good to vent on these things. Obviously I could not tell this to him, mom, bro or sis. Boy, do my parents know how to drive wedges in between the various 'family'-members.  :doh:

If you are NC with all of these people, how will you even know when one of them dies?  Have you been appointed executor? Given your current family dynamics, what if anything will you have to say about anyone's funeral? Do you see how you're torturing yourself over something entirely beyond your control?

Quote from: Danaus plexippus on June 29, 2016, 12:33:03 PM
Do you see how you're torturing yourself over something entirely beyond your control?

Ah, victim blaming.  :thumbdown: 

I'm gonna throw in my two cents.

When the blinders come off, we have a revelation. We cannot continue to exist in the dysfunctional system as we were, because our eyes have been opened.

And so we begin to construct new ideas about our role in that system. This demands new language, new labels. These labels are for the person who is having the revelation. It is not up to others to determine what new label this person needs, going forward into healing.

To tell someone what to call themselves is to negate their feelings - it is telling someone how to view themselves.

I can understand how some of us may have a problem with the term "victim". It brings up such strong images of helplessness, weakness, and vulnerability. Some people may be so uncomfortable hearing someone else use the term "victim" that it stirs up these same feelings in them, forgetting that it is not they themselves who have used the word but another person.

Yet for others, it may be necessary to use the word "victim" in order to see the harm that has befallen us clearly,  and be able to step out of our dysfunctional family role.

We MUST support each others' journeys and revelations, where they are. We've all been told what to do and how to think; what to acknowledge and what to deny. Healing means we need to be free to know what we know and to be who WE want to be instead of who others want us to be.

We are to be a soft spot to fall, here, for each other. Otherwise this becomes yet another toxic environment.

 :yeahthat:  Well said.

Quote from: Three Roses on June 29, 2016, 05:12:12 PM
And so we begin to construct new ideas about our role in that system. This demands new language, new labels. These labels are for the person who is having the revelation. It is not up to others to determine what new label this person needs, going forward into healing.

To tell someone what to call themselves is to negate their feelings - it is telling someone how to view themselves.

:yes:

ditto

Three Roses, you said this better than I possibly could have.

I am so tired of being made to feel even worse because I identify with 'victim' as I cope with what I've experienced. I will move on, when I am ready, to survivor.

Yet, I do understand why so many reject 'victim'. It can even be triggering to some folks. So, while I do identify as a victim when I'm finally remembering something that happened (or didn't- I was invisible emotionally), I still try to avoid that word because of the negative connotations.

But, I put those negative connotations into the same boat with the negative connotations of mental illness at all. Our society (globally, really) wants so badly to make all the ugly go away, but their way to do that is to pretend it doesn't exist or to make it socially unacceptable to talk about it. Ignoring these problems will not make them go away - that is why so many of us are here trying to sort out what DID happen in our lives.

Thank you, Dutch Uncle for this thread, and Three Roses for your opinions also!

I'm not making an issue of semantics. Call yourself a victim, if that gives you validation. It just pains me to witness you twisting the knife in your own heart. You have given me good advice since the day I joined. I wish I could think of the words to help you dispell your darkness.