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Symptoms => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kizzie on March 27, 2016, 04:53:33 PM

Title: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on March 27, 2016, 04:53:33 PM
(Note - this is a repeat post)

As you read through the various threads in the forums you will probably see that many of us have been misdiagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD).  Or if not misdiagnosed, many of us worry that we have BPD rather than CPTSD because the two appear to be alike, despite the fact that BPD is a personality disorder and CPTSD a stress disorder.  The good news is that I came across a very current research study that provides some data about the differences. 

Unfortunately, I can't reproduce it/upload it here due to copyright, but here's the reference and a short summary if you want to take it to your GP or T (or just tuck under your pillow so you feel reassured!); no doubt they will be able to access the full version through their databases (and nothing speaks to louder to professionals than empirical evidence):

The Difference between CPTSD and BPD

There has been much debate by clinicians and researchers about whether and how Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD) is distinct from Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), in particular when BPD is comorbid with PTSD (Cloitre, Garvert, Weiss, Carlson, & Bryant, 2014).  Research into a dataset of 280 women with histories of childhood abuse by Cloitre and colleagues (2014) suggests that there are four main symptoms of BDP which distinguish it from CPTSD including:

•   frantic efforts to avoid abandonment
•   unstable sense of self
•   unstable and intense interpersonal relationships, and
•   impulsiveness 

Their research also suggests that different treatment is required for each (which is key for any professionals in your life to know).  For example:

The focus of treatment for BPD concerns reduction of life interfering behaviors such as suicidality and self-injurious behaviors, a reduction in dependency on others and an increase in an internalized and stable sense of self (e.g., Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Linehan, 1993). In contrast, treatment programs for CPTSD focus on reduction of social and interpersonal avoidance, development of a more positive self-concept and relatively rapid engagement in the review and meaning of traumatic memories (e.g., Cloitre et al., 2006).

Reference: Cloitre, M., Garvert, D., Weiss, B., Carlson, E. & Bryant, R. (2014). Distinguishing PTSD, Complex PTSD, and Borderline Personality Disorder: A latent class analysis. European Journal of Psychotraumatology, 5.



Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: chairmanmeow on June 01, 2016, 04:31:46 AM
Thats how they did my ex, even though she was just like me from the same background, they gave her some nasty medicines made her worst and more unstable. Her abusive family used it to their own advantage. My CPTSD got called GAD and they sent me on my way with a bottle of SSRI's. Im glad the psychological world  is starting to really grasp this........
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: gonelikeyesterday on June 12, 2016, 09:59:30 AM
Please... Please someone help me. There's a question I've never spoken aloud. I've only found out I have c-PTSD. I don't know who to talk to, or share with. I'm carrying a lifetime of baggage around - and only just found out most other people had theirs shipped away years ago.
Please help me.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: radical on June 12, 2016, 11:59:20 AM
Hi Gonelikeyesterday,
We are here, we are all in a similar boat.
Is there a particular way anyone on the board can help just now?
Take care.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Sceadu on July 27, 2016, 02:13:08 PM
The part about "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" always scares me.

I totally panic if I think I'm being rejected.  Totally.  When I was younger and less mature I would sometimes frantically try to get people not to abandon me, but as an adult, I usually just accept it as my lot in life.

I've had a lot of fair-weather friends who hung out with me because I was a warm body and there was no one else, and then left, or just plain stopped liking me because I'm weird.  I feel like whenever someone find out what I'm truly like, they leave.  Or whenever I assert boundaries in a relationship or express any negative feelings, they leave.  This goes for friendship or romantic relationships.  If I ever ran into someone who I felt really "got" me and I felt safe with them, and then they left, I would sometimes frantically try to get them to change their minds.  I often feel like a total reject and that no one really loves me for who I am.

Does that mean I could have BPD?
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Three Roses on July 27, 2016, 04:40:27 PM
Anything is possible - it's up to you and/or a therapist to decide if it's something you should look at.

From what I'm reading, it sounds like early childhood trauma can also cause attachment disorders, so there's that to look at too. Not necessarily just BPD. (I'm starting to wonder about myself having an attachment disorder, too.)
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on July 27, 2016, 05:32:11 PM
Hey Sceadu - I agree with Three Roses that it's something to look at with your T and in particular at which symptoms (as a whole) represent how you feel.  Fear of abandonment is a major symptom of both, it's how it plays out in each and in conjunction with other symptoms that matters.

Gonelikeyesterday - how are you making out?
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: steamy on September 17, 2016, 02:30:07 PM
The thread is a little old now and many apologies for not keeping up to date.

I just wanted to comment on the point about abandonment and attachment disorders, I read Gabor Mate's "in the realm of the hungry ghosts," there are lots of issues that society is creating for children, who become adults, these often lead to addiction and attachment issues. They found that young rats that were taken away from their mother for only one hour per day did less well than those who stayed with their mother continuously. They also found that rats that were not licked by their mother had less seratonin receptors in their brains and were more likely to self medicate when drugs and alcohol were available. In the USA I see that most women have about two weeks off post-nataly, and the child then goes to a carer for 8 hours per day, while mother goes to work. I have no doubt that the lack of maternity leave has a direct impact on stress, anxiety and attachment disorders, even if the child is well loved and cared for. Of course it might depend on how susceptible the child is, we are all different of course and epigenetics could play a part. One does not need to be abused or neglected to develop attachment disorders.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: JusticeBeaver on November 30, 2016, 06:23:41 PM
I know this is an old stickied thread, but I just wanted to comment on the "impulsiveness" aspect, that it is supposed to be just a BPD trait. CPTSD can cause impulsive behaviors like binge eating, shoplifting, compulsive overspending... I have dealt with these issues throughout my life. I also fear rejection. I would not say that I am "frantic" about stopping abandonment, but I am definitely paranoid that everyone will leave me or hate me eventually.

I am not a doctor, the following is just from my research, observations and opinion. This is not meant to insult anyone or to make anyone here worry that they are BPD. I know deep down that I am not BPD, though I have worried in the past because of the overlapping symptoms between the 2. I am not diagnosed with anything. I've barely been to a therapist prior to this year, and have just sort of "dealt with" everything on my own. Individuals with BPD tend to end up in therapy early on in life, simply because the people in their lives can't deal with their behaviors.

The main issue that I see as the difference between BPD and CPTSD (I am in therapy with BPD individuals) - is an inability to be accountable for behavior on the BPD side. The incidence of painting things to be different to maintain the image of being a victim. I can acknowledge when I am wrong, and sincerely apologize. People with BPD get increasingly argumentative when they are told they are wrong.

Another issue I see is the incidence of identity disturbance. Individuals with BPD that I have met wear "different" clothes (goth, emo, BDSM wear). Or they dye their hair a million bright colors, or they wear a lot of accessories. Or they become Wiccan, or think they are an animal spirit... they have no idea who they are and try to create a persona to "make" themselves definable. People with CPTSD have a negative self image and are less likely to try to find a persona to adopt, more likely to just be down on themselves no matter what and kind of float through life unsure of what they really like or really want.

Again, this is based on my close relationships with people with CPTSD in my own family, and people with BPD that I have met. I don't know much beyond that, and the articles and books I've read.

Edit to add: I don't think all people who dress outrageously or "different" have BPD, it just seems to be a common trait among the BPD people I have met.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: mourningdove on November 30, 2016, 09:09:18 PM
Or they become Wiccan

?
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: JusticeBeaver on December 01, 2016, 02:06:20 PM
mourningdove, I guess I should have been more clear. I meant "seek out an alternative religion as a means to self-identify," wicca is one example, but they may be atheist, quaker, etc

here is a scholarly article that explains what I mean. Oftentimes, people with BPD feel so disconnected with others that they can't conform to their religion of origin, so they seek out a religious sect that seems like it is for people who are "different."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4277802/

And again, to clarify, I'm not saying that everyone who is involved in alternative religions has BPD, just that it is something I notice, that individuals with BPD tend to involve themselves with things that are different from cultural norms. We can say correlation doesn't equal causation, of course, but when I notice a pattern I take a mental note.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on February 12, 2017, 06:24:41 PM
Im no expert , but i ve read somewhere and agree with it, is that all types of PD, be it BPD, NPD, SPD, etc or other more extreme  mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bipolar, psychopathy, sociopathy whatever are all a consequence of C-PTSD or trauma for short in childhood.

C-PTSD as it becomes a more accepted definition as the cause of mental illness will replace the need to constantly label people and categorize them with differing PDs.  As we know with PD, BPD and NPD often overlap and are comorbid with other forms of PD. It is all essentially a dysfunctional personality caused by childhood trauma and insecure attachment .

The degree, type, length etc of trauma/upbringing  is complex in the way it  determines the PD or later mental illness, narcissists often suffer schizoid symptoms and schizoids are now thought to suffer  a milder form of schizophrenia.

Most who come to this site, suffer from a milder form?? of C-PTSD in some form and come from families that have PD individuals in them. It follows therefore that they too have suffered from C-PTSD and it manifests itself later as PD. 

To differentiate between say BPD or NPD and C-PTSD is wrong i believe. 

The differential is those with PD and those who believe that they just suffer "EFs " and the "4fS" , is the former "act out" their condition and have little insight into the consequences of what they do to others (lack  empathy), ie the fight end of the "4fs". 

The rest who (visit this site) have empathy/insight but have been raised by them ( PD parents) and grown up alongside them ( PD siblings), but " act in" as in internalise their rage and tend to be more susceptible to depression/panic./anxiety/phobic than PDs etc

Many "high acting" BPDs and NPDs do not act "out of the norm". I know those in my family that have high powered responsible jobs.

The current POTUS to many is  classic NPD.

The common denominator for all of us is childhood trauma to varying degrees, call it/label it  what you will, when it manifests itself in later adult life.

Just my 2cents worth?? Any thoughts??
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: radical on February 12, 2017, 09:37:57 PM
I prefer to use the term 'abuser' to differentiate what some prefer to describe as cluster B personality disorders.  I agree that developmental abuse is an important cause of most mental illnesses.  It is not the only cause, because being abused as a child, doesn't cause most people to routinely use selfishness, maniuplation, violence,cruelty, controlling others and lack of empathy and self-reflection as ways of dealing with life, feeling better about themselves and getting their way.

Personality disorders are not considered to be mental illnesses, but entrenched, inflexible patterns of behaving and thinking.  The framework of personality disorders can useful for those who find themselves in relationships with abusers, in understanding red flags and patterns of abusive behaviour.  I don't like the way this framework associates 'abuser' and mental illness in the minds of too many people.  People with actual mentall illnesses are far more likely to be the victims that the perpertrators of abuse, and already live with unfair stigma.  For many, the stigma and marginalisation associated with mental illness is as hard as living with the mental illness itself.

It remains to be seen, whether a wider understanding about abuse, and zero-tolerance rather than widespread enabling and victim-blaming would cause many abusers to change their ways.  Unfortunately, uncecked, these behaviours, can be something of a winning formula in controlling and dominating others who approach life more cooperatively and compassionately.  It can be hard to understand that some people think very differently and to misunderstand motives and behaviours according to a projection of their own intentions, values and beliefs.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on February 14, 2017, 07:21:39 PM
Quote
To differentiate between say BPD or NPD and C-PTSD is wrong i believe. 

One fundamental and important distinction is that PD's are personality disorders whereas CPTSD is a stress disorder.    While I agree trauma underlies both types of disorder, the end result is not the same and this is key because it influences treatment and recovery.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Wife#2 on February 15, 2017, 03:51:16 PM
Hazy111, I see the points you are trying to make, and I do believe that they come from a place of deep compassion for your fellow humans. That part is wonderful. I simply cannot see these as the same because I've lived with the differences.

I've struggled with this a lot. Back and forth. Do my parents display these traits ENOUGH to be a disorder, or were they victims in their own childhood, who then turned around and parented the only way they knew? Because I do NOT want to believe that my parents are really disordered. However, I've had to realize one is. Still, that doesn't give ME permission to follow in Mom's footsteps.

As an adult, I have choices. I chose to start therapy at a young age - myself, not anyone telling me I should. I saw that my thinking wasn't quite right and I needed help. I stuck with the therapy for over a year, but ran out of funds, honestly. Still, I applied what I'd learned. Then, when I saw trauma coming my way, I got BACK into therapy, knowing I'd need a 'T's help, Mom sure wouldn't and Dad wouldn't be able to either. After a third, ongoing trauma, I was mandated into therapy, which I stuck with for two years. I learned new ways of coping with the world that did help me grow as a person. I can claim my mistakes, apologize when I hurt people and feel empathy for any hurting person.

** possible triggers to follow - mild, but possible **

Below is the tale of a single incident in a string of incidents that make up the fabric of Mom's thinking, her willingness to NOT see reality, even if it hurts herself or others.

Siblings and I work together to get Mom a car. Her responses:
1) I don't want THAT car, why couldn't you let me pick the one I wanted? ** Entitlement - it was a FREE car to her **
2) I want a newer one (the one she wanted was older than the one purchased for her). ** Entitlement **
3) I don't like that model. (It's the same as the model I drive.) ** Better than - in this case, me **
4) whispered to me AS we were signing paperwork and asking her for her insurance proof (Can you just come outside with me? I need you to bring me to the insurance company office. Nearly AT the office - I need you to cosign for my insurance. I have the money, but the ** people say it's still cancelled and I have to have someone cosign or they won't reinstate me.) ** Distance from reality - don't pay bill, lose service **
5) Why do you have to have your name on the car, too? You were only cosigning for the insurance, I thought (we explain the law and she finally agrees)
6) She gets the car, we stick around a moment with the dealer. His crew try to drive her 'trade in', that she drove to the lot uninsured, to the back of the lot. They almost wreck in the parking lot - the brakes are GONE and reverse barely works. Hubby and I are mortified that she'd do that without saying anything to anyone. The dealer assures us that we shouldn't be embarrassed - it happens all the time.  ** Special treatment and Entitlement **
7) Fast-forward just over a year. I get a letter in the mail. My license is being cancelled for failure to pay car insurance. I remember that Mom had me cosign and I'd been checking, but she'd been paying, so I slacked off checking behind her. From that moment on, she hadn't paid on time, then failed to pay at ALL. My name was first, so MY license was being cancelled. In this state, a vehicle without insurance MUST turn in the license tag to avoid continuing fines. When hubby and I went to do that, she called me names, called my husband thief (for getting the tag off her car), blamed me for not taking my name off her car previously (couldn't, still needed for insurance), called the sheriff to report hubby, then when sheriff supported hubby's actions, asked sheriff to throw him out of her apartment. All so she wouldn't have to accept consequences of her actions. She didn't care that I was being fined $200.00 or that my license was about to be revoked or that my credit would suffer because of that incident. THAT is Personality Disordered thinking. ** The worst of Narc & BPD wrapped up in one easy-to-see episode **

Do you see in that story that she's displaying entitlement (not THAT car - and she wasn't paying!), special treatment (I didn't pay my insurance, sure, but I have the money now. The stupid company wouldn't work with me to cover my tracks and NOW I HAVE to reveal that I've been slack- because THEY won't let me pay late anymore - rude people!), lack of empathy (car dealers are all crooked anyway, serves them right my car's a mess), refusal to accept reality even when presented with the facts (Throw HIM out of here, please. He's a thief and I want him REMOVED). More lack of empathy (hubby stated very sarcastically, 'Thank you for costing your daughter $200 and almost her license, that was very loving.' Her response? Sincere and pissed tone, 'You're very welcome. Get out.'. She didn't even care because she'd been proven wrong!).

Now, I'm not saying that every PD person acts this way. What I AM saying is that her behavior is well beyond what most cPTSD folks would consider. It was bite-when-cornered instead of hide-when-confronted like most cPTSD folks. This whole time that my husband and mother were snapping at each other, I was sitting on the sofa, crying, filing out the paperwork necessary to turn the car completely over to my mother (free of course). I wasn't even blaming her - in fact, I accepted into my heart her blame that it was MY fault. My fault because I didn't check on my adult mother about whether she was paying her bills or not. My fault because I'd allowed the car to remain in both of our names so that her property tax would be lower (I live in a different county, cheaper on those things). My fault because my husband was making her angry.

See, hubby had to go with me that day because he knows I won't stand up to my mother, even when I'm right. (Well, wouldn't, that incident finally convinced me that she'd throw me under the bus to save herself). He knew that I'd crumble under the first sign of anger from her. He'd seen me crumble before. This time was too important to me and my FOC. I was/am the only driver. My license gets revoked and we don't get to school, work, grocery store. My credit tanks. Then, we can't get loans to cover emergencies, interest skyrockets on credit cards. This time was too important to let my mother intimidate me with her anger. HE took the anger FOR me, so we could get done what needed to get done. Who has to do that unless you're dealing with someone whose issues go WAY beyond the normal range?

Had that been my father, if somehow he suddenly forget to pay his bills, and for some reason depended on me to help before, all I would have had to do is call him and say - Dad, what's this letter from the highway department about? He would find a way to pay the bills, get the tag turned in - AND APOLOGIZE for the trouble he caused me. HE would offer to pay the fine I'd incurred because of HIS actions. Not say, 'Your welcome, get out.'

Both had traumatic childhoods. Both lost their same-gender parent in their 20's. Both lost their opposite-gender parent before turning 50. Both dealt with alcoholic mothers and passive fathers. One turned out possible cPTSD - but dealt with his issues as an adult. Not perfectly, but dealt with them. The other slipped into PD, became the ultimate victim and blames the world for everything wrong in her life. Neither seriously sought therapy. Dad did see priests for counseling, that's as close as he would get. Mom saw therapists, got her Prozac prescript renewed, or whatever, and quit going.

Dad was a college educated engineer. Mom was a semi-college educated woman who opened and successfully ran her own business for 20 years. Both active at church, in politics and with social groups.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on April 10, 2017, 09:56:46 PM
Wife#2 I feel your pain. I come from a familiar family. 

I had i believe a UBPD mother and a UNPD father and a UBPD sister. I believe i after much soul searching, reading over many years and recent  personal crisis that i have a form of UNPD. I have suffered serious depression over the years, ( ithink where my narcissistic supply runs low)

My therapist says its not NPD with me, but developmental narcissism. I dont get bogged down with the definitions. As ive seen it said before. An insightful self aware narcissist is still a narcissist . He isnt cured . I agree.

The difference between myself and the rest of my family is i have some degree of insight, i am not in denial and have some small degree of empathy .

As you know,  Peter Walker says  one of the 4fs of C-PTSD is "fight" or a narcissistic defense to trauma in childhood. ie A personality disordered response to trauma. 

 But this form of trauma and abuse  doesnt seem to be discussed on this forum, as these people are unaware of their pain and dont believe they need help. This is my family. But their pain and  rage is palpable, especially my Mother and my Sister. My Sister admits she is (always has been) deeply sarcastic, she has a jokey sign on her kitchen wall extolling it!

What is sarcasm.....its rage/anger....where does this come from??....her childhood trauma (C-PTSD).....but she point blank refuses to go there....as long as shes receiving enough narcissistic supply she can get through life (emotionally crippled )......like her mother before her.

She has told me harrowing stories of abuse by my mother when she was a child, but she told me in a totally detached unemotional way, she said she deserved it!!!!!

My father of 91, doesnt accept that there is anything wrong with his personality , his wifes , daughters. He cant understand my pain. He has no empathy. He gets severely defensive about any criticism. But i know he also had a deeply traumatic childhood.

They are stuck as a frightened small child and when criticized or perceived as criticism, abandoned or perceived abandonment, rejection etc,  ( ie they are being triggered) they lash out, cry as to play the victim, manipulate, abuse , verbal , physical , etc . Or in proper psychological terms they "Act Out" their pain and frustration like a two year old having a tantrum and everyone around them knows it.

Not wishing to repeat myself but i think you were different, if that is the correct word (apologies i do not wish to trigger any pain) in that you did not develop a  "fight defense" or PD to your trauma . You have insight, empathy.

This site as i have said before i think attracts most  people who "Act IN" , they are very sensitive and emphatic. They suffer the other 3fs of trauma. They have compassion, insight  and dont  abuse others.

But they, all the 4fs,  all come from the same root as Peter Walker says C-PTSD.

I would like to start a thread for those suffering a narcissistic fight type reaction to C-PTSD . Would it get any supporting compassionate comments? We suffer terribly too.

One fundamental and important distinction is that PD's are personality disorders whereas CPTSD is a stress disorder

 Personality disordered people do suffer from enormous stress. I think the difference is bogus.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 11, 2017, 12:27:48 AM
Hazy, I agree with lots of what you write and find your points interesting. I saw your other post, and didn't answer there because I've never been diagnosed with narc anything, not that I know of anyway. But I do know that about 20 years ago, before anybody'd thought of C-PTSD for me, my depression was labelled aggressive-depressive. I'm much less verbally aggressive towards other people than I used to be. In fact, I've been told that I'm compassionate, loving and caring towards people in my life. I don't have a FOC, just lots of good friends, and pets.
I never acted out physically, but verbally yes, like everybody else in FOO. My depression is no longer labelled aggressive-depressive.

Maybe I'll write more tomorrow. It's very late where I am and I have to get up early and go to T.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Wife#2 on April 11, 2017, 12:34:13 PM
Hazy, your points hit home deeply. I do suffer what some term 'fleas' in that I CAN act just like my uBPD/Narc? mother. When I do, my husband has to point it out to me. I HATE, HATE, HATE every time he does that, but I have to recognize that I CAN do as I learned sometimes. He knows one of my biggest dreads in life is to end up like my mother. I already look just like her and have developed the same sets of medical concerns she has. So, years ago, I gave him permission to call me out. I might fight him about whether the action/words were really like Mom. But, he doesn't mind too bad. He knows I'll go stew on it for a while, apologize when I realize he's right and do all I can to correct it.

And, I actually went to Out Of The Fog for the first time looking to learn about possible uBPD in ME - which scared me half to death, reading all the literature that the path to mental health is successful for so few. I even called a former therapist and point blank asked him if he thought I was maybe BPD or other PD. He checked his notes and told me that, no, in his professional opinion I was not PD of any flavor. Still, I'm aware of the fleas and that I get a new batch every time I'm around my birth family.

This leads me to the idea that instead of actually BEING NPD, maybe you have a bad case of NPD fleas? I say this because it seems to me that what separates those of us damaged by PD families and those who will go on to reproduce damage in their own families with PD is self-awareness and a willingness to accept that it is US who might need to change. To me, that means those of us who see some PD traits in ourselves see it as a cancer of personality and will do all we can to rid ourselves of it. Which also means, in my opinion only, that we don't HAVE a PD, we have habits learned from the PD parents who raised us, or 'fleas'.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on April 11, 2017, 04:07:50 PM
Hazy, here's my take FWIW. I read Walker's book  a bit more differently; that is, he talks about the four responses in terms of degree - from healthy through to personality disordered.  Thus, a little bit of narcissism (or fawning, fleeing and freezing) in a person is normal. It's when it gets to be habitual and severe that it becomes a problem. If you picture a continuum from healthy to PD'd, CPTSD is somewhere in the middle.

      l_____________________________l_____________________________l
Healthy                           Stress Disorder                  Personality Disorder

Those with NPD don't suffer terribly any more, that's the whole purpose of the disorder, to shield a very small and traumatized ego or self  from any more pain.  However, they cause a lot of pain for those around them although they can't or won't see that.   

Those of us with CPTSD have not yet turned that corner (as I see it and I believe this is what Walker is suggesting).  We use the defenses in an unhealthy way compared to those who don't have CPTSD, but not to the extent that those with a PD do.  It's a matter of degree. 

 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 11, 2017, 04:32:07 PM
Thank you for your explanation, Kizzie. That sounds like a good and sensible way of seeing it.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on April 11, 2017, 05:06:54 PM
Thus, a little bit of narcissism (or fawning, fleeing and freezing) in a person is normal.

One of my many therapists told me I needed a big dose of healthy narcissism. What does that mean?

Quote
Those of us with CPTSD have not yet turned that corner (as I see it and I believe this is what Walker is suggesting).  We use the defenses in an unhealthy way compared to those who don't have CPTSD, but not to the extent that those with a PD do.  It's a matter of degree.

That might answer my question, I guess.  :wacko:
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on April 11, 2017, 06:02:12 PM
I guess an example of healthy Narcissism would be standing up to our Inner Critic, learning to say (and believe) positive things about ourselves in the face of a whole lot of negativity. E.g.,  "No, I am NOT a bad person, I am actually very kind and caring." 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on April 11, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
Some interesting comments. Im glad it stimulated a response.

Its triggered some thinking in me. Denial. If there is denial there can be no insight.  Fully fledged PDs seem to lack this.

 Could this be  brain chemistry damage from her early childhood stress? The amygdala is damaged. Where the fight or flight response is activated?? Do we all have damaged amygdalas??

 As Christine Lawson also points out in her book, they (BPDs) literally cant remember the abuse they deal out, their memories are wiped out during heightened severe stress. She says BPD is like PTSD . This reminds me of my mother, she always used to say i was making things up about her, it never happened.

I think its also important to remember that BPD mothers can be loving and compassionate , its just when they are triggered for whatever reason (their C-PTSD kicks in) thats when the pain and abuse can erupt

For the record i have never been diagnosed as NPD, but i definitely have narc traits. My T says i am definitely not NPD.

Kizzie , i like your definition of NPD, as they dont suffer anymore,, therefore im definitely not!!! Hmmmm

I still believe NPD/BPD PD people still suffer, its just they ACT Out. But why then, do they only  ACT Out with those nearest and dearest to them..that would indicate they can control their emotions to a certain extent,,, do they bottle it up with say work colleagues and then vent at home , like wife beaters do with their wives.... its all so confusing???!!

to be continued......


Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on April 12, 2017, 08:57:28 AM
I guess an example of healthy Narcissism would be standing up to our Inner Critic, learning to say (and believe) positive things about ourselves in the face of a whole lot of negativity. E.g.,  "No, I am NOT a bad person, I am actually very kind and caring."

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Wife#2 on April 12, 2017, 12:23:14 PM
Thank you Kizzie, your post with the graphic really helps me 'get it'.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on April 12, 2017, 05:11:06 PM
It is confusing Hazy.  The way I see it, at some level my NPDM knew what a "good" mother was supposed to act like so she acted that way, but what she didn't know how to do is actually be authentically maternal.  Her PD kept her from knowing she was not maternal, she literally seemed to believe she was.  When some part of her slipped up and the angry, traumatized part(s) of her leaked out, she would blame others.  And she didn't have any ability to self-reflect because to do so might crack the protective shield or so I believe. 

It's why those with NPD hold fast in the face of all evidence to the contrary of what they have said or done (like He Who Shall Remain Nameless in the US does).  They must believe they are special, entitled, always right, etc., to protect what remains of a very fragile ego.  And that includes sacrificing us and anyone who will not feed their N needs or threaten the facade.

It's a really difficult truth but I found it allowed me to step back a bit and see that my FOO's personalities are disordered, that it was nothing I had done or not done that caused them to traumatize me. And it helped me to let go of the hope that they would change some day because I was hanging onto that, hoping they would love me as I deserve, but imo they are simply not able to (rather than they choose not to). 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on April 12, 2017, 07:18:47 PM
Yes Kizzie im thinking about it all over again and what we forget , is that the PD has a "false self" as my T says , it  knows how to act as an adult, parent , employee, etc but its not authentic, its false , an act. Love is conditional.

There is massive denial at all times (and therefore no insight, self reflection) as you say their fragile ( i dont think they have an ego) psyche of sorts can easily be disturbed by evidence to the contrary. It could trigger breakdown.



Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on April 13, 2017, 09:07:42 AM
at some level my NPDM knew what a "good" mother was supposed to act like so she acted that way, but what she didn't know how to do is actually be authentically maternal.

You must be my sister, Kizzie!

Quote
It's a really difficult truth but [...] it helped me to let go of the hope that they would change some day because I was hanging onto that, hoping they would love me as I deserve, but imo they are simply not able to (rather than they choose not to).


I will mull on this. Thank you.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on April 14, 2017, 01:28:30 AM
Hi everyone, more thoughts

I think also with PD the C-PTSD starts earlier in life and lasts longer an d more severe throughout childhood when the personality is developing

Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: shoshannah on April 25, 2017, 01:53:31 PM
What a great thread with great responses...spreading my love to all of you:

My oldest sister has BPD (I suspect as a result of nature and nurture)  and I have been to counseling and *begged* my counselor to tell me whether or not I have it too and she almost laughed and said "You do not have BPD." She even told me that I am very empathic and I would actually make a great counselor.

"Are you joking?" I thought... It's so weird. On the inside I am so sure that there is something severely wrong with me and everyone can tell. I self harm sometimes, I am afraid of people sometimes to the point where I have to lock myself the nearest bathroom and have a panic attack, I have depression and anxiety, I have dissociated during sex, I have a history of being with abusive boyfriends....but she told me that I seem like a very strong, warm, and likable person.

Its really weird..I was even runner up for prom queen in high school. People seem to not notice anything wrong with me at all...I have had people single me out and tell me how great of a person I am. What other people see in my DOES NOT MATCH what I see.

I haven't been officially diagnosed with C-PTSD but I STRONGLY identify with all the symptoms. I think because I grew up with a sister who has BPD who emotionally abused me for so long, my C-PTSD comes from the fact that I am on the abusive end of my sister's BPD.

So, I really don't see how someone could make BPD and C-PTSD same diagnosis. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I think BPD individuals are more likely to be abusive, while C-PTSD individuals are not.

We are very sensitive, very insecure, very down on ourselves, very confused about how to get on in this world. We are afraid, lonely, isolated, and we feel misunderstood. Our depression and anxiety might make us unreliable or neglectful sometimes in our relationships, and we might shy away from people a lot,

but we are not overtly abusive like BPD individuals have the tendency to be.

Does anyone else agree? I am a Psychology major in my undergrad, so obviously I am not credible, just speaking from observation.

Thanks for reading

xo
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on April 25, 2017, 02:11:25 PM
We are very sensitive, very insecure, very down on ourselves, very confused about how to get on in this world. We are afraid, lonely, isolated, and we feel misunderstood. Our depression and anxiety might make us unreliable or neglectful sometimes in our relationships, and we might shy away from people a lot,

but we are not overtly abusive like BPD individuals have the tendency to be.

Thank you, shoshannah. I'll take that from a Psychology major any day!
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Wife#2 on April 25, 2017, 04:28:00 PM
I like the explanation that all of us with damaging childhoods have the potential to turn out either BPD or cPTSD. The fork in the road comes down to some point at which the person either digs in their heels and shouts, "I'M FINE!" or looks in a mirror and shouts, 'WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?". The first are either so injured or so determined to 'tough this thing out' that they warp their personalities to fit what they understand of reality. The second group reflect on it all and begin seeing things that don't make sense in their own behavior. BPD vs cPTSD.

Yes, I do believe all of these groups suffer. I believe the self-delusion of the PD world cracks often and the sufferer becomes very aware of their own pain and the pain they have caused others. During those times they rock the pendulum - loving, bitter, caring, demanding, etc... That confuses the people in their world further - the seeming inconsistency of personality. This is why DBT therapy can help and why it's considered an emotional regulation disorder. If the person can HOLD their emotions still long enough to stop the pendulum, they can learn to feel the pain of their self-awareness and still live. All the empathy and other parts of their personality can have a chance at emerging.

I know my mother suffers tremendously. I know she regrets many things she did and said to her ex husband and all her children. I know she suffered at the hands of her own Narc mother. I know she suffered other incidents along the way that pushed her further down the uBPD/Narc road. Her moments of total awareness are wonderful and angering at the same time - because we want it to be consistent. When that vanishes and she's back to her (I estimate and Dad agrees) 12-year-old self, I want to scream!

I know my husband suffers horribly. I live with him and his pain every day. Does knowing he's in constant pain help? Honestly, as his wife, no. He's emotionally 17. His life was destined for cPTSD, but it started so young and it was so harsh that he ended up in uBPD/Narc territory. He has fewer self-aware moments. He really believes he has a good handle on all of his emotions. His pendulum rides last for less time lately, that is good. But, he is completely unaware when he's back on the negative, abusive side. And making him aware is to encourage his wrath.

Both my mother and my husband have had therapy. One (mom) decided she'd just live on Prozac. The other, rejected all antidepressant drugs and therapies, and discourages me from either - they're being weak and dependent on an outside source for our well-being. All while freaking out if I get low on my thyroid medicine.

I really don't think the PD's in my life are malevolent. I'm so sad for those of you who do suffer malevolence. It is easier to deal with when I know my Mom is so badly misguided by her brain, but that she really, sincerely loves me as much as her damaged brain can. My husband also loves me to the capacity that word is real inside his reality. Once I identified his emotional age as about 17, understanding his warped vision has become much easier. I don't agree or condone, but I do understand.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on April 25, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
the person either digs in their heels and shouts, "I'M FINE!" or looks in a mirror and shouts, 'WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?". The first are either so injured or so determined to 'tough this thing out' that they warp their personalities to fit what they understand of reality. The second group reflect on it all and begin seeing things that don't make sense in their own behavior. BPD vs cPTSD.

Neat distinction, Wife#2.

Quote
I believe the self-delusion of the PD world cracks often and the sufferer becomes very aware of their own pain and the pain they have caused others.

Do you have any evidence for this? I'd love to think my mother even once thought oh dear, how horribly I treated Candid!

Quote
I know she suffered at the hands of her own Narc mother. I know she suffered other incidents along the way that pushed her further down the uBPD/Narc road.

That might make the difference. My M manages to be lovely to everyone but me. I don't believe there was any trauma in her life. I'm sure she would have mentioned it!

Quote
His life was destined for cPTSD, but it started so young and it was so harsh that he ended up in uBPD/Narc territory.

Do you mean child abuse leads to having a PD? Are there any born PDd people?

Quote
I really don't think the PD's in my life are malevolent.

That would help. My M was malevolent towards me. Jury's out on Nsis, who may just be suffering from copycat syndrome. If she is, and wakes up to it, she might be worth knowing.

Hmm. So many questions.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blackbird on April 25, 2017, 06:08:28 PM
I would like to chime in with a couple of things here on this convo... Throughout my life I've dealt with all sorts of PDs, Narcs, BPD, Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Conduct disorder in my teens, etc. I was diagnosed with BPD when I was a teen (wrong therapist to diagnose, really) and later changed to Schizophrenia (wrong psychiatrist), then Schizoaffective disorder (same psychiatrist) and finally Bipolar Disorder (right psychiatrist). I had all the classical symptoms of BPD all the way until I was 27 years old. Then all of a sudden I changed, I'm mellow now and only emotional when severely triggered.

I'm completely confident my mother has a form of BPD and my uncle is a Narcissist, I've talked extensively about this with my current therapist that is to be trusted. They both have specific traits, like manipulation, cunningness, lack of empathy, etc. 

So, some PDs can be caused by severe trauma in childhood, but not all BPDs have traumatic childhoods, for example. One of my closest friend is BPD and she didn't have a traumatic childhood, still has all the symptoms as if she did.

I've met a person with sociopathic traits with a traumatic childhood that treats his children in a good way, even close to kind in his own way, but in no way abusive.

My grandfather was a psychopath, cunning, the stare, the lack of empathy, the manipulation, the treating his kids like dirt (mother and uncle).

I'm not sure but my grandmother showed signs of BPD as well.

So, my take on this, and the several years I've had dealing with diagnoses and psychiatrists is that if we have a cluster of symptoms we fit a certain box, that doesn't mean we are that label, or that we can't change (exception of psychopaths that have their brain wired in a certain way). My diagnosis has changed so many times that I've lost count, each time I would research about said disorder and say "this fits like a glove" after a certain time, because I would meet the criteria for certain boxes. But people are more varied than that, we are more holistic. Some react a certain way because they were taught to, not because they are wired that way. Some have symptoms of disorders, like mood swings that can be both from BPD or cyclothymia, but not meet the criteria for either one.

What matters is treating the symptoms, and in all cases, if the person is willing to receive treatment.

Don't know what others have to say about this.
 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: radical on April 25, 2017, 07:05:03 PM
I've read that there is a a part of the anterior cingulate cortex in the brain, in which lack of grey matter and also lower connectivity (white matter) is associated with lack of, or lowered empathy, and other traits associated with cluster B symptoms (including high hypocrisy). 

Loss of connectivity in the AC and throughout the brain, but particularly the frontal cortex, hippocampus and limbic system is typical of a brain damaged by trauma. 

What I'm fumbling to try and say is that traits of all kinds can be part of a wider picture of trauma, and/or they can be characteristics of a genotype.

It seems to me, that what we call a PD, is likely to usually be a phenotype made up of a genetic profile + trauma and other environmental influences that intensify each other, and become extremely resistant to further influences that might change or modify it.  PD-like traits can also be primarily caused by trauma, and where this is the case, they are amenable to healing, when whole brain networks respond to appropriate treatment, or other environmental infuences, once the individual is no longer experiencing brain-damaging levels of stress.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Hazy111 on April 25, 2017, 07:49:43 PM
I dont wish to repeat myself but i think its worth saying. PDs arent born, there is no genetic input. Its nuture not nature.

Dont get bogged down with the differences with PD and C-PTSD.

The origins of mental illness such as PD is an emotionally traumatic abusive childhood..  The earlier it starts, the degree, type and the longer it lasts all play a role in the outcome. They also suffered what is now called C-PTSD.

Its important to remember that no parent treats each child the same,( even emotionally healthy ones). Some get full blown PD some dont. All are damaged to a degree some suffer PTSD symptoms but do not develop PD.

The PD person has a false self , one giant lie of an individual, the true self never emerges.

When people say they had a happy childhood etc but they have BPD or whatever it is not possible. They are in denial and most probably dissociated and still are.

Overwhelmingly most people find it hard to think about their parents negatively. We all want to believe our parents loved us unconditionally.

I was like this at 17, when my symptoms first emerged and still find it hard at 52 to accept this. I dissociated. I have no really bad memories of childhood, nor do i have good ones, nothing. no memories.  it was all wiped to preserve my then sanity.  It wasnt until i read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" when i was about 47 everything started to make sense, the scales fell. At last.

It is also very hard for a parent to think they have damaged their child in any way, especially a PD one.

The false self PD person who uses projection as nearly all do,  projects their own pain, shame, guilt etc into the child and thereby the child has the problem, It isnt theirs. It didnt happen :stars: Its easier to blame the victim, no guilt. A lot of the time they disassociate too so they cant remember inflicting any pain anyway. This is the false self at play.

They continue to do this as adults, hence our frustration and rage when we realise its them not us!! :pissed:

Hazy

 :bighug: to all you sufferers. It wasnt fair, it just wasnt fair!!


Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 25, 2017, 07:50:44 PM
So if I read radical, wife#2 and Blackbird correctly (even though you are all writing slightly different things) and then add my own spin  ;) , diagnosis of BPD, or other PDs, and differentiation from CPTSD or even where they may overlap is really complex and should maybe only be done by specialists + ? Not by us in our armchairs, unless we're diagnosing ourselves, of course. Because if we're honest with ourselves and it seems that CPTSD-ers are brutally honest to the point of self-castigation, then we can assume we have CPTSD if the symptoms fit or even possibly a PD, again if symptoms fit.

But neither we nor therapists/psychiatrists ought to be throwing PD diagnoses around as accusations. "He / she is difficult, therefore BPD or NPD." Nor should we be saying that PDs all act like this or that or can't/won't heal. Quite possibly other people (possibly even over on OOTF, where I read too) say all CPTSD-ers do x and y. We know on here that we share many symptoms, but we don't all have all the same symptoms. There's also a difference between whether we say something about ourselves and our own Beast or if some non-affected person (who isn't a doc or similar) says this. Well, it makes a difference to me anyway. Probably because FOO threw unfounded accusations around about my state of being (rather than my state of health.)

+ though even specialists make mistakes. In my country BPD is apparently a diagnosis which is too readily given to a patient who seems 'difficult'. So back to 'treatment resistant', which was being discussed on another thread.
 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 25, 2017, 07:54:11 PM
, 'WHAT'S WRONG WITH ME?"

I've been asking myself this since the age of 7. Almost 4 decades. In the last few years, less questioning because I know why.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Wife#2 on April 25, 2017, 08:13:26 PM
I've written and removed this post so many times, it's silly. I want to sound smart, but when I read my post, I sound pompous or like a know-it-all. I'm hopefully not the first and certainly too ignorant to be the second.

I do believe that PD's are sometimes self-aware. I think some just can't make the change they know they need permanent. I think others are mean - turning those 'icky' feelings into negative action to those who 'made' them feel bad. Why some are mean and others aren't - I haven't a clue. I just want to rescue those who suffer at the hands of the mean ones. I do count myself fortunate that my PD's aren't mean (jury still out on my stepmother).

That's why I have a hard time saying that PD's have no empathy. I believe most do have it. It's just severely stunted or completely submerged in the personality. Not all - some I do believe have no empathy and no remorse for wrongdoing. I haven't experienced that myself, so I can't speak to that.

I can say that I understand why the psychiatric community have such a hard time diagnosing between BPD and CPTSD. It really does seem to be just motivation that differentiates. Like I said earlier - BPD are usually sure they are right and you are wrong. cPTSD are usually sure they've got something wrong (or missed the 'how to be a human' handbook as I used to describe it) and seek help about it. But, many of the ways both play out in life (mood swings, weak or missing sense of self, emotional - sometimes far beyond what the situation calls for) are just the same. So, when checking boxes and taking tests, BPD's who end up at a cPTSD conclusion may actually get help (they were searching for something when they took the test), but cPTSD's may sometimes come to the conclusion they are BPD and feel even worse - unless they see that BPD answer and reject it, continuing their search. Who is right, who is wrong? I don't know. I'm glad I don't have to be the psychiatrist who has to decide these things!
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 25, 2017, 09:20:17 PM
I've written and removed this post so many times, it's silly. I want to sound smart, but when I read my post, I sound pompous or like a know-it-all. I'm hopefully not the first and certainly too ignorant to be the second.

You don't sound pompous to me or like a know-it-all, neither in this post nor your one above. I'm interested to find a different perspective, or maybe better, differentiated perspective on people with PDs than for instance I read about on OOTF or even here. It's particularly interesting coming from you because you seem to have great understanding of and empathy for the PD sufferers in your own life. At the same time you don't go overboard with it. You still say what's hard for you about it.


I can say that I understand why the psychiatric community have such a hard time diagnosing between BPD and CPTSD. It really does seem to be just motivation that differentiates. Like I said earlier - BPD are usually sure they are right and you are wrong. cPTSD are usually sure they've got something wrong (or missed the 'how to be a human' handbook as I used to describe it) and seek help about it. But, many of the ways both play out in life (mood swings, weak or missing sense of self, emotional - sometimes far beyond what the situation calls for) are just the same. So, when checking boxes and taking tests, BPD's who end up at a cPTSD conclusion may actually get help (they were searching for something when they took the test), but cPTSD's may sometimes come to the conclusion they are BPD and feel even worse - unless they see that BPD answer and reject it, continuing their search. Who is right, who is wrong? I don't know. I'm glad I don't have to be the psychiatrist who has to decide these things!

In some of this description here, I used to be more like BPD. I've always wondered what was wrong with me or as a child more why my parents didn't seem to want me - but I think that was fundamentally the same question. OTOH I used not to be able to admit openly to any wrong, I'd blame somebody else right away, or just block. That was learned behaviour because admitting to doing something wrong in FOO was dangerous, it felt life-threatening.
e.g. I had a colleague who ended up sitting on the floor of the office crying on the phone to her boyfriend in total distress, because of me and my behaviour, and I was pretty unmoved by the whole scene. I felt a little uncomfortable, but basically felt it was her fault for being so weak and crying. We didn't get on well anyway. She was open and talked to everybody, tried to draw me out, I refused.  :blahblahblah:  :blahblahblah: There was no way I was going to do anything to mitigate that situation.  I was acting pretty like M in that situation, no wonder really. I had developed no 'tools'  e.g. for compromise (because that doesn't exist in FOO) nor for setting my own limits or protecting myself and my own sense of security/well-being.  And I had been ridiculed throughout my childhood and teenage years and into my early 20's for crying and/or punished. It was labelled 'blackmail'. Not that it ever got me what I wanted, but I couldn't hold it back. But here I was in my late 20's passing that very stuff on to a colleague, not quite so actively or verbally, but still not nice.

17-18 years on, that's long since not been the case. Once people particularly in therapeutic settings started showing me compassion and when I started to discover that underneath all that bitterness and hardness there was a) a whole bunch of raw pain and b) actually a loving heart, I started to show other people compassion, be able to admit to mistakes and to apologise to people. But it did take an awful lot of therapy to get me to where I am now. Long-stay in-patient care, if you add it altogether, will be about 18 months within the space of about 13-14 years. So if I'd been living in a country where that's not available or not in the way it is here - I wasn't in psychiatric care, but psychological / psychotherapeutic -  I'd hate to think what kind of state I'd be in now. And with what diagnosis.

OTOH, unlike my M (who is possibly uNPD or uBPD, and probably uCPTSD), I have been doing soul-searching for years and since the time I started intensive T, I have never given up (for long), have always picked myself up, got going again, looking for some T or other doc or counsellor who'd believe me and believe in my ability to progress and heal and help guide me slowly the right direction. 

In my country when you read self-help forums for borderliners, some will say the diagnosis is a stigma for life; once you have the diagnosis it's not going to be removed from your file so to speak. Maybe they would have diagnosed me with BPD back then because of the way I acted towards other people, but I've been able to change so it wouldn't have been good to have that in my file.

Lastly, at my last inpatient treatment place for CPTSD, where I went twice, patients there in the trauma group, a lot of whom had been a number of times, joked about patients joining the borderline group and coming back the following year and being moved into the trauma group. It seemed to happen fairly often. For some sessions we were even occasionally together like for some grounding techniques and imagination exercises.

I'm not a pro on any of this either, these are just my thoughts based on my own experience and what I've seen/read/heard.

Sorry such a long post, not good at summarising. Topic expands itself as I write.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on April 25, 2017, 09:55:24 PM
just found this on http://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/2016/06/23/root-causes-for-borderline-personality-disorder-most-likely-vary/   which fits our topic.

"people with Borderline Personality Disorder who do NOT have comorbid conditions like Narcissistic Personality Disorder can in fact control and improve their own social behaviors.

[It takes about two years of weekly Psychotherapy and a lifetime of dedication to working with Behavioral Specialists, but someone with BPD who is motivated to change can do it with the help of a tough-love style family and positive, non-toxic peer group support system.] "
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: mourningdove on April 25, 2017, 10:38:09 PM
I recommend this presentation by Bessel van der Kolk:

"Childhood Trauma, Affect Regulation, and Borderline Personality Disorder"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NTADxDuhA

Bessel van der Kolk, MD, delivers the lecture "Childhood Trauma, Affect Regulation, and Borderline Personality Disorder" as part of the 9th Annual Yale NEA-BPD Conference.


What he doesn't say is as interesting as what he says, in my opinion.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: sensitivesoul on June 13, 2017, 11:05:55 PM
Hey

I'm new here but I was diagnosed with BPD and then CPTSD- so thought I'd join in this discussion. I went through DBT (dialectical behaviour therapy) and noticed that I wasn't very similar to the most of the people in the group but did have lots of struggles that were the same. I don't have anger issues (aside from towards myself), I have high levels of empathy, get along well with others, and am extremely emotionally sensitive. The DBT didn't really help me, although I learned some skills that I hope I still use. Now I'm in psychotherapy talking through my upsetting memories and the personality disorder thing isn't mentioned at all.

It's hard to know if the initial diagnosis of BPD was correct or not. The thing is, a personality disorder isn't necessarily a life long condition anyway- so maybe I wouldn't meet the criteria now. BPD is hugely stigmatised and there are some horrific things I've read online. People say you should never be in a relationship with someone who has BPD, they are liars, reactive and have no empathy but that's just not true. I'm extremely kind, caring and loving, I just struggle with life because of my very difficult start in it.

I would be reluctant to declare the BPD label to people who know me but would be ok admitting the CPTSD, so I guess it mostly does come down to the aforementioned stigma. They are similar conditions in lots of ways.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on July 08, 2017, 06:03:06 PM
I'm so glad you weighed in here with your own experience as somebody with a BPD diagnosis (even if as you say yourself it may not be correct). "I'm extremely kind, caring and loving, I just struggle with life because of my very difficult start in it." is what lots of us on here could probably say too. Though if you read one of my posts a bit further up in the thread, you'll see that I certainly have not always been "kind, caring and loving".

I think it partly goes back to what I wrote before: armchair diagnoses of BPD / NPD should be treated with caution, as should even an immediate diagnosis from a professional, e.g. "you had problems with your previous therapist? You must be BPD!" Nooooo. Not so straightforward and easy.

Hope to see you around the forum some more. :hug:
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Candid on July 09, 2017, 12:02:29 PM
And I'm so glad you wrote this:

I certainly have not always been "kind, caring and loving".

... because it gives me hope that I can be all that again. It's beyond me now. I think I need to be able to defend myself and my needs before I will find out Who I Really Am.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: ah on September 28, 2017, 03:16:24 PM
This is a hard topic for me, I've been misdiagnosed as BPD in youth by my abusive family who made sure it was spread around in the family and among my colleagues later in life. So I was and am treated as the crazy lying manipulative black sheep ever since. It's been 3 decades now.

No one ever believed it was an abusive lie. Everyone was and is convinced I'm a total fruitcake. If I ever was trusting or dumb enough to try to talk to any person in my life about hurt, they instantly put on their disgusted "Oh Lord here we go again" face. My family have all disowned me. Since it's a personality disorder it's incurable, right? So I was discarded. I've occasionally tried in every possible way and never been able to convince anyone that this has all been an abusive lie because, of course, people with BPD are the manipulative liars! How clever...

(I just re-read this and wanted to edit and add: I'm of course not saying people with BPD are liars at all, but just that this was how I was portrayed to be)

I've long since given up.

I guess I can understand the therapists who misdiagnosed me. They didn't know any better. But they happily cooperated with my abusers. I distinctly remember one of the times they tried to commit me and declare me nuts (I was too young to run away at the time) and the social worker at the place asked if I agreed to a family session, I said "no, my family is abusive, you don't have my permission to invite them" and next thing I knew, I was called to her office to discover we were all there having a good old family talk. The betrayal by the therapists was... ugh.

That being said: really, from my experience as someone who's been completely destroyed personally by a mistaken diagnosis of BPD, there's just no comparison between trauma and BPD as I understood it. The main difference I can see is that as a traumatized person I don't use words or people. Not that there's a single person in the world who knows it but me, but I know it.

This can be an incredibly dangerous misdiagnosis to make, in the hands of abusers and unsuspecting cooperators.

Just my two cents... from lousy personal experience of a lifetime.






Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Liminality on September 28, 2017, 03:57:57 PM
This is a hard topic for me, I've been misdiagnosed as BPD in youth by my abusive family who made sure it was spread around in the family and among my colleagues later in life. So I was and am treated as the crazy lying manipulative black sheep ever since. It's been 3 decades now.

No one ever believed it was an abusive lie. Everyone was and is convinced I'm a total fruitcake. If I ever was trusting or dumb enough to try to talk to any person in my life about hurt, they instantly put on their disgusted "Oh Lord here we go again" face. My family have all disowned me. I've occasionally tried in every possible way and never been able to convince anyone that this has all been an abusive lie because, of course, people with BPD are the manipulative liars! How clever...
I relate so so so much to this. Unable to talk about it right this moment, but everything you just said. Gaslighting is one of the worst forms of abuse. It leaves no traces and is so sneaky.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: AphoticAtramentous on September 29, 2017, 01:12:15 AM
That sounds horrible. :( I'm so sorry to hear that.

And I really hate the stigma against those with BPD. I remember my mother watching a documentary about crimes/investigations and the narrator clearly said; "The reason this woman committed murder was because of her BPD". Sure, some people are so troubled they go and do those things, but why label the entire BPD community? :S So yeah, I'm not surprised you'd get a lot of #$^&*# for that misdiagnosis. Sad it is. :\
Glad you found your 'true' diagnosis now though!
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Pilgrim on October 11, 2017, 08:55:00 AM
Hi
I'm a newbie (oops I posted in the wrong section just a little while ago which is for those who developed C-PTSD in adulthood). Mine is from an abusive upbringing against the backdrop of the NI Troubles. Just like to say hello and say yes I had the same problem for years. I was misdiagnosed with BPD (which we all know is treated with utter contempt and stigma) and that was then changed to C-PTSD. While I know we would all not want C-PTSD the correct diagnosis was helpful - as an in-patient at times with the BPD tag the treatment and the units were straight out of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest; everything was seen as just attention seeking and health professionals just kept laying another layer upon layer. I also suffer from a very rare neurological disorder and its rareness is also damaging as health professionals just don't know what it is and just say you're faking symptoms. All that does is keep layering the C-PTSD. Trying to manage 2 misunderstood and life changing conditions is such a joy. But hey it's my birthday. Cheers Pilgrim
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: ah on October 16, 2017, 02:31:52 PM
I hope today is a happier unbirthday, Pilgrim!
Yikes, sorry you were misdiagnosed with BPD too. It's quite a ride... Arghh. I'm so glad you got the correct diagnosis in the end.
 
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Gwyon on October 31, 2017, 10:06:32 PM
Interestingly,  for me it was from being in DBT, and suspecting that I might be in the realm of BPD that I first became aware of the broader impact of my childhood trauma and that it wasn't simply "chronic depression". I'd always felt there was something more complex at work. It  was a useful revelation for me. 

Now I realize that BPD doesn’t fit, but c-ptsd does. And that's a much more useful framework.  But it was still a useful doorway to the truth, for me.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: BlancaLap on November 19, 2017, 02:45:01 PM
Hi, I have been misdiagnosed with BPS, and I gotta say it was horrible. My (in that time) psychologist knew what I gent through and used to tell me that I should "forget it".
I gotta say, I don't believe personality disorders exist, *Please, if you don't wanna read more, quit it now*, because, what are mental disorders? Most of them can't be verified through physical methods, except for some of them... For a mental disorder to "exist", a group of doctor have to debate whether it exists, which are its symptoms... what I'm trying to say, is that mental disorders aren't like physical ones... you can't see a virus, a bacteria or a malformation in the brain (except for some disorders like I said) and verifie through that that the disorder actually exists. What doctors do is see some people, "treat" them, argue what is "wrong" with them and by consensus say what is the disorder they have.
Personality disorders are very insulting because saying someone has a personality disorder is equal to saying their personality is "wrong". It's like labelling the person as utterly wrong. If you ask a person labelled as Borderline if s/he have had a hard childhood, I'm 100% s/he is gonna say yes. Labelling a person as Borderline is just an excuse for treating that person who's personality you don't like with medication that makes more harm than good. Understanding that psychological problems aren't something you can verify by scaners but rather something people have "invented" by consensus by seeing people "that do weird stuff" or that "they don't like" is the first step to change the system. Despite what some people say, labelling someone as Borderline or with other "PD" is insulting. It's bascially saying that there is something wrong with their personality. There is nothing wrong with their personality, what is wrong is what people have done to them. If we want to change the stygma there is in psychology, we have to stop believing there is something "wrong" with people and start believing that what is wrong is what other have done to them. We don't want to be labelled as utterly wrong, we want to be cured! We don't want people to say that our personality is wrong and should change, we want them to say that what they made to us was wrong and we need the support we deserve! Stop labelling someone as "with a personailty disorder" and start making other names for "mental disorders". The name you give a disorder matters. "BPD" causes anxiety, but no one labelles it as an anxiety disorder. C-PTSD causes changes in personality, but no one labelles it as a personality disorder. The name matters. Please stop labelling people.
Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: melere on November 20, 2017, 01:30:24 PM
Hi, I have been misdiagnosed with BPS, and I gotta say it was horrible. My (in that time) psychologist knew what I gent through and used to tell me that I should "forget it".
I gotta say, I don't believe personality disorders exist, *Please, if you don't wanna read more, quit it now*, because, what are mental disorders? Most of them can't be verified through physical methods, except for some of them... For a mental disorder to "exist", a group of doctor have to debate whether it exists, which are its symptoms... what I'm trying to say, is that mental disorders aren't like physical ones... you can't see a virus, a bacteria or a malformation in the brain (except for some disorders like I said) and verifie through that that the disorder actually exists. What doctors do is see some people, "treat" them, argue what is "wrong" with them and by consensus say what is the disorder they have.
Personality disorders are very insulting because saying someone has a personality disorder is equal to saying their personality is "wrong". It's like labelling the person as utterly wrong. If you ask a person labelled as Borderline if s/he have had a hard childhood, I'm 100% s/he is gonna say yes. Labelling a person as Borderline is just an excuse for treating that person who's personality you don't like with medication that makes more harm than good. Understanding that psychological problems aren't something you can verify by scaners but rather something people have "invented" by consensus by seeing people "that do weird stuff" or that "they don't like" is the first step to change the system. Despite what some people say, labelling someone as Borderline or with other "PD" is insulting. It's bascially saying that there is something wrong with their personality. There is nothing wrong with their personality, what is wrong is what people have done to them. If we want to change the stygma there is in psychology, we have to stop believing there is something "wrong" with people and start believing that what is wrong is what other have done to them. We don't want to be labelled as utterly wrong, we want to be cured! We don't want people to say that our personality is wrong and should change, we want them to say that what they made to us was wrong and we need the support we deserve! Stop labelling someone as "with a personailty disorder" and start making other names for "mental disorders". The name you give a disorder matters. "BPD" causes anxiety, but no one labelles it as an anxiety disorder. C-PTSD causes changes in personality, but no one labelles it as a personality disorder. The name matters. Please stop labelling people.
Thanks for reading!

I think you make some really good points and I've thought about this before as well. How can it really be quantified? You can't measure thoughts. There's so much we don't know about the brain--we haven't even solved the mind-body problem!

But, from what we do know, you can detect noticeable differences in neurological functionality when comparing brain scans between healthy individuals, and those with mental illnesses or personality disorders. I take that with a grain of salt, however, as those are usually composites of a group average, and that composite doesn't actually match any individual in that group. If you want to learn more about that, I read a good book called "The End Of Average". But, overall, it is something physically detectable at this point in time, with what we know, and I have faith it's a good step forward in terms of treatment.

I will say, however, some personality disorders, such as narcissistic/sociopathic are useful for diagnosing, as those can be a good label for someone who is generally destructive and probably can't be cured. But on the opposite side of things, I agree that things like histrionic/avoidant/borderline should not be under the "hopeless" umbrella, nevermind that it's possible those diagnosed with those disorders may have C-PTSD instead. In general, the key is that people with personality disorders aren't supposed to have the self-awareness that they have a problem--it's everyone else who has a problem in their mind. Again, it's possible more people are being misdiagnosed with it than those that actually have that personality disorder. But, at the end of the day, I think it's really sad people treat them as a lost cause--BPD was originally coined to categorize people who were "lost causes" to signal other practitioners not to bother with them, from my understanding. And that's truly sad.

End of the day, I think people do tend to put people too much into boxes and then decide, based on the label alone, to not accept them. I mean, I've seen my fair share of "advice" that you should cut out depressed friends because they'll just "bring you down with them." People's personalities come in all sorts of shades and spectrums and I think we have a lot of work to do towards just accepting them, flaws and all, and trying to work with them--because labelling them as "hopeless" or "defective" is not going to do that!
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: BlancaLap on November 20, 2017, 01:55:37 PM
I like your comment.
They labelled me as borderline because I met the criteria but now I don't: does it mean I am cured? Or does it mean I never had BPD? What if BPD is another name for saying C-PTSD? I have made a pdf telling Why I had the symptoms of BPD and why some of them seemed right but are actually wrong. I can download here if you want.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: melere on November 20, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
I like your comment.
They labelled me as borderline because I met the criteria but now I don't: does it mean I am cured? Or does it mean I never had BPD? What if BPD is another name for saying C-PTSD? I have made a pdf telling Why I had the symptoms of BPD and why some of them seemed right but are actually wrong. I can download here if you want.

Oh my goodness. I was really worried I was going to upset you! (Guess that's the C-PTSD talking.) Thank you.

What I've learned so far is that numerous people have speculated a lot of borderlines are actually suffering C-PTSD because there's so much overlap in symptoms. And some docs aren't up to date, or, as someone once told me, "Someone had to graduate at the bottom of their class," so misdiagnosis is common (as many in this thread can attest to). I think my stance on it is that they are different disorders, as some symptoms are almost polar opposites.

It's hard to say if you're "cured" or just didn't have it. On the one hand, while researching C-PTSD, I realized how far I'd come with managing most of my symptoms (whilst not knowing it was C-PTSD) but also that I would have been far, far more likely to be diagnosed borderline then, than I would now . . . but it still doesn't mean I was borderline then or just don't have BPD now. And I have to remind myself not to look at personality disorder criteria (or other illness criteria) because my anxiety will start convincing me I have that problem--only to later realize I was kind of "molding" myself into the symptoms, if that makes any sense. But as soon as I read about C-PTSD, it was different, because when I read about people's experiences, it was like reading my memoir. When I read about BPD or other illnesses, I felt like I was trying to contort myself.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: ah on November 20, 2017, 02:31:55 PM
I'd love to read it BlancaLap! Thanks!

I find all the diagnoses that are solely based on behavior to be a bit suspect. I'd feel more comfortable about them if doctors used them cautiously, with a big question mark, but we know they don't.
And it doesn't get any easier than catching a traumatized person in a painful triggering moment, and reaching devastating conclusions about who they are. Yeah. With a personality disorder diagnosis the conclusions are beyond terrifying socially. It's the ultimate gaslighting.

But I've also read that psychopaths that were tested had brain abnormalities, their amygdala (responsible for emotional response) was really small. And, they've seen changes in people with ptsd, stands to reason c-ptsd would have similar changes if not much more than ptsd. I guess we may see some of the harm c-ptsd does by looking at the brain itself because everything we experience changes it.

But all of this can be misused so easily, I'm really saddened by what I've been reading online about c-ptsd lately. Not everywhere, in some languages in particular. Seems some smart therapists are jumping the wagon with this newly forming diagnosis, treating it like a new BPD. They're saying it's especially resilient to therapy, requires therapy for life, ... I'm too triggered by some of the things they pretend it is and how unethical they're being, but in short they put c-ptsd in the exact same box as BPD. BPD is no longer as fashionable as it once was, since then there've been newer diagnosis fads like ADHD, Aspergers 'etc., and they need new patients. Out with the old, in with the new?  :thumbdown:







Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: BlancaLap on November 20, 2017, 03:06:21 PM
Yeah,that happens to me too! I read an article about a mental disease and I start thinking I have that disease! But as you said it felt different with the C-PTSD. It felt like I could see myself in every wordand phrase I read about it.

I want to upload it, but first I have to translate it, since it is in spanish... that or you can use google translate, but I don't guarantee you will understand it hahahahahaha
They made a scaner of my brain and they told me I have the most normal brain among the normal brains the have ever seen. And still I had traumas...
Yeah, it makes me upset too that some people label C-PTSD as incurable. I don't know how to explain it but I felt it, I sensed the end of my C-PTSD, I felt it can end and will end someday and how it will end... if that makes sense. I felt it months ago, and I believe it is true. There is a cure, although it won't be easy and it needs a lot of resources, such as emotional support and things like that... things not all of us have sadly. But if the system could make those things more available... I think that would make a lot of difference.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: this_evening_so_soon on February 26, 2018, 12:11:27 PM
I do think I have BPD (as a manifestation of, or in addition to, CPTSD) but I've never abused anyone (as far as I know). I also think my mom has BPD but she has abused people. People are different even within diagnostic categories, and there's nothing in the BPD criteria that says you lie, manipulate, or abuse people.

Honestly, I've had people use my BPD diagnosis as an excuse to abuse me much more than I've ever used it as an excuse for my own actions. It's such a stigmatized diagnosis that my mom could use it to hospitalize me when she felt like it and my ex could use it to claim my disagreement with him was pathological and I deserved to be physically abused as a result. Perhaps worst of all is the judgment one gets in abuse survivor spaces. I've had fellow abuse survivors tell me I must have misunderstood my abusers or been partially responsible in a way I didn't mention. It really hurts.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on February 26, 2018, 01:12:45 PM
I'm so sorry for your bad experiences with this. You're right: within one diagnostic category there are a lot of differences.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Contessa on August 25, 2018, 06:19:31 AM
Those with NPD don't suffer terribly any more, that's the whole purpose of the disorder, to shield a very small and traumatized ego or self  from any more pain.  However, they cause a lot of pain for those around them although they can't or won't see that.   

Those of us with CPTSD have not yet turned that corner (as I see it and I believe this is what Walker is suggesting).  We use the defenses in an unhealthy way compared to those who don't have CPTSD, but not to the extent that those with a PD do.  It's a matter of degree.

I've come in search of this thread because I have been scared lately that I have developed BPD. I do act aggressively to members of my FOO, usually as a response to a biting trigger. For years I backed down, now as a result of repeated abuses and trauma/abandonment that completely altered my life path, I respond aggressively. But only to them.

The above quote from Kizzie is as far as I have got through the thread, but the quote is reassuring. I don't treat others that way, and I do feel horrid when my outbursts happen.

But i'll be damned if I ever apologise to my FOO again. That was a pattern I noticed early on before my larger traumas. Offering an apology for my part of a disagreement has never yielded an apology in turn for theirs. My extension of an olive branch is as good as an admission of all fault to them.

Slowly, slowly... i'm cutting all contact. For me.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Blueberry on August 25, 2018, 12:41:06 PM
But i'll be damned if I ever apologise to my FOO again. That was a pattern I noticed early on before my larger traumas. Offering an apology for my part of a disagreement has never yielded an apology in turn for theirs. My extension of an olive branch is as good as an admission of all fault to them.

 :yeahthat: I can sooo relate.

There is a little part of me who would apologise to FOO but I'm keeping that part under wraps.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Contessa on August 25, 2018, 03:58:09 PM
Exactly Blueberry.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on August 25, 2018, 06:35:01 PM
FWIW Contessa, I honestly believe anger is necessary in recovery/healing.  It's that self-protective part of us waking up after years of being silenced.  It lets your family know you will not accept their behaviour any more and from the sounds of things they need to hear that.

My H used to remind me when I first started taking a stand with my family that they sleep great at night while I did not because they are wrapped in a cocoon of NPD while I am not.  So no guilt or apologies is not a bad thing. You are putting boundaries in place that are going to make your life better and healthier. And if you get a bit feisty IMO that's OK too.  Sometimes with people like we have in our lives we have to be loud and clear because they don't always hear us or respect us  ;D   

Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Contessa on August 25, 2018, 09:49:42 PM
Thanks Kizzie.

Well no matter how feisty I get, they will never hear. I am always shut down, every single time. They hear nothing. It's a cycle that builds and builds till I explode.

Change of tact to support myself.
Title: Re: CPTSD versus Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Post by: Kizzie on August 26, 2018, 05:41:59 PM
 :hug:  and    :applause: