Out of the Storm

Hey all!  :)

So I've just discovered that I am a freeze-fawn combination and I was wondering if anyone else shares this as well? I've read Walker's descriptions for both the Fawn and the Freeze type, but I'm interested in the interaction between the two. Is there any information specifically on the freeze-fawn type? Also, if anyone relates to this type and would like to share their story, that would be great!

Thanks!  :thumbup:

hi - not sure if fawn-freeze would be the same as freeze-fawn. but, there is a definition from  pete walker starting on p 134 of his book "complex ptsd: from surviving to thriving". i will type it out for you either on the forum or in pm if you prefer. (it's the type i also identify the most with)

Thank you Three Roses, that would be very much appreciated!  :)

ok here goes! :)

Fawn-Freeze: The Scapegoat

The fawn-freeze is typically the most codependently entrenched subtype. Not all scapegoats are fawn-freeze, but since fawn and freeze types are both prone to extreme self-denial, many end up in a scapegoat position.

This is also because these are the two most passive of the four F's. They have both typically suffered the most punishment or rejection for asserting themselves in the toddler stage.

When the fawn freeze is not able to escape the scapegoat role in childhood, she is then set up to be similarly victimized in adulthood.

In worst case scenarios fawn-freezes are easily recognized by fight types who take them captive. They may then turn them into doormats and subject them to domestic violence (DV). Sometimes, the fawn-freeze does not even recognize that she is being abused. Other times she blames herself (as she had to in childhood).

Moreover, as we know from studying the dv cycle, many narcissistic abusers know when and how to shower romantic tidbits on their victims just when they are at the point of leaving. These narcissists are often the charming bullies described in the last chapter. Their infrequent tidbits have more warmth in them than anything the codependent received at home, so she quickly becomes rehooked, and just as quickly the cycle of abuse begins again.

It is important to note that many charming bullies also offer copious tidbits briefly in the courtship stage but these peter out to near starvation rations once the entrapment is complete.

Many fawn-freeze types only make token efforts at recovery, if they do not avoid it altogether. Often fawn-freezes were forced to so thoroughly abandon their protective instincts that they become trapped in what psychologists call "learned helplessness".

(Omitted two paragraphs here concerning info specific to males.)

I have worked a great deal with ... fawn-freeze types in my years of doing telephone crisis counseling. Hope for them lies in understanding how their childhood abuse set them up for their current abuse. This is often difficult, because scapegoated fawn-freezes were often punished extra intensely for complaining.

Numerous times I have heard dv victims say: "But I don't want to act like a victim!" Usually, I then try to help them see how much they truly were victims in childhood. However, if I cannot get them to see this they usually are not able to rescue themselves from their current victimization.

Given that description I guess I'm a freeze-fawn type too. I definitely have "learned helplessness". I mostly identify with the freeze-type, though perhaps I'm more fawn than I'm aware of.

Thanks for the write up, Three Roses.  :thumbup: Very insightful.

Thank you so much for posting this Three Roses! It really resonated with me, particularly the part about not being able to recognize domestic violence when it happens. Besides identifying how victimized we were in during our childhood, is there anything else (either that Walker suggests or that you've found helpful) that can be done for fawn-freeze types?

This seems like a really tough thing to overcome, so I'm sending you (and Dutch Uncle) and everyone who is struggling with this a hug!  :hug:  :hug:

haha... it's ironic but I've actually been running from therapy/recovery for a couple of years now. But recently I've really been pulled toward ... I don't know, SOMETHING... anything to start the healing process. I was just diagnosed with PTSD about two years ago (I'm 59) and subsequently did some reading that "helped" me remember the rest of my childhood, so I've been dealing with that.

That said... since we are resistant, I think it's good that we recognize that about ourselves. It seems to me that if we are resistant, and finally talk ourselves into doing something, and if we get scared off.... I can see where I, at least, would use that for justification to not return. Maybe (knowing me) I'd even be looking for that! So, start off with accepting we're resistant and don't try to force ourselves to do something too early just because we "should". Wait until we're really ready.

Also - in Walker's book, he talks about finding a "good-enough" person to engage in something he calls "co-counseling", where you and a friend trade 30- to 60-minute sessions and talk/listen. There are guidelines in his book for this. My friend, whom I trust completely and without reservation, have discussed doing this for/with each other as we each know and accept the other unconditionally.

The co-counseling concept is interesting, I had never thought of that. I'd be curious to know more about that. I'm glad that you have a friend you trust enough to do that with, that seems scary (at least to me), so congratulations on trying that, it takes courage to do that :thumbup:  :)

I have had a hard time getting myself to therapy and committing to it as well, I'm rather scared of opening a can of worms that I might not be able to close (if that makes sense). I've found a therapist I actually trust and I'm so grateful for that, but it seems, given the description of the fawn-freeze type, that there's a lot that needs to be done in order to heal. I'm feeling pretty anxious about that right now  :blink:

Looking into it it looks like I'm a freeze-fawn type too. Interestingly i was in a long term relationship with dv and didn't realise I was being abused for almost 10 years. The co-counselling sounds interesting.

LanaBanana, it took me a couple of years with my current psychologist to feel ready to open up about my childhood abuse. I just knew I want ready before then to work through it. Try not to beat yourself up about it, in my personal experience it takes time to feel ready to open that can if worms and I'm sure you'll get there. Sending you hugs

Thank you Silverlight! Sending you hugs too, that 10 year relationship sounds awful, I'm so sorry to hear that  :hug:  :hug:

I've been really hyper-vigilant about people lately, I'm really really scared of ending up in another abusive relationship like the one I had. I also tend to blame myself for not recognizing some of the red flags early on, as well as the abuse that occurred during my last relationship. So I think that's why I'm a bit worried about therapy and recognizing my fawn-freeze tendencies. I may be beating myself up about this though.  :stars:

Quote
Numerous times I have heard dv victims say: "But I don't want to act like a victim!" Usually, I then try to help them see how much they truly were victims in childhood. However, if I cannot get them to see this they usually are not able to rescue themselves from their current victimization.

It took a while to let this sink in, but I have to agree that this has been an important step in my recovery: accepting I have been a victim. I'm still in the process of doing so, it's not something like turning a switch on/off.
I bookmarked this in my own copy of Pete Walkers book. Thanks for reminding me, Three Roses and Pete Walker, that being a victim is nothing to be ashamed about, it's not been my doing.

:hug:

i am definitely a freeze-fawn, with a side of flight and a garnish of fight!

one thing i think i have realised,LanaB, is - the can of worms thing? well i know that fear, am facing it right now in fact. but i reckon that to take the lid right off would be too traumatic  :spooked: so maybe, drill a couple of holes in the side and let a bit seep out at a time? that way i can still manage to function a little bit at the same time.  to that end i am currently (slowly) re-reading Pete Walker, a tiny bit at a time, and stopping when i get too triggered. no idea where it will lead me but at least i am making some kind of effort to help myself.

i also like the idea of a co-counselling relationship. i think it would be lovely to have such an agreement with someone, with sensible boundaries of course.
sending you a hug  :hug:

Thank you Dutch Uncle and arpy1!!  :hug:  :hug:  :hug:  :)
It makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one with this.
Does anyone find it hard to relate to other people? I seem to feel that people are dangerous and I should avoid them, but when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate? 

Quote from: LanaBanana on June 08, 2016, 01:23:23 PM
when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate?

Yes. But always reluctantly.
For the result it doesn't really matter if I do it reluctantly or not, I guess. But I realize I never did it wholeheartedly. I'm not sure if this is typical for "Fawning". Perhaps it is. Would it be a different thing if I would do it wholeheartedly instead of reluctantly? I don't know. Thoughts, anybody?
Is the reluctance a sense of 'buried' fight-response?

omg, yes, LanaB!!!

and nowadays i hate myself when i do that. i used to think it was the right way to respond. i didn't know that boundaries were even ok, let alone vital. i thought they were sinful. so i have been well trained to have none at all.

now my boundary is basically the size and shape of my skin... no where for anyone to get in to the real me (whoever she is), unless it's a bit online, where i can remain anonymous, or  with the one relatively safe friend i have left from my past, or in the one safe space that i feel i have, the GP's surgery room.   i would rather be alone than risk getting conned and betrayed again.

so, I seem to feel that people are dangerous and I should avoid them, but when someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, I forfeit all my boundaries. Does anyone relate? yup yup yup.

the reluctance, D/U i am wondering about.  i don't find it easy to relate to that becos of never having done it reluctantly. maybe it is a kind of flight/fight shield that you have adopted to prevent anyone having the chance to hurt you again? kind of like how i self isolate and avoid humans in general? interesting.

i would rather be alone than risk getting conned and betrayed again.

Arpy1, I totally get what you mean, I have the same feeling too. I'd rather keep myself safe and be alone than risk getting hurt again.
Dutch Uncle, I think I get what you mean, whenever I meet someone at first, even if I forfeit my boundaries, I still pull away at times and am considered to be rather distant. Like Arpy1 said, I think it's a kind of defense as not to get hurt.

I think ultimately, I view relationships with other people as an automatic forfeit of my boundaries and identity, and I have never been able to see this pattern. I may have a reluctance after I have forfeited my identity and pull away as not to get hurt, but I still seem to enter that pattern regardless. I've been blaming relationships, thinking that they were unsafe and unreliable (and my early relationship with my FOO was without a doubt), but I haven't seen how I contribute to making relationships unsafe for me. I have a choice now to either continue avoiding relationships, saying that people are unsafe and can't be trusted, or I can learn how to establish boundaries early on and how to maintain my identity with other people as to be able to have healthy relationships. The problem is, I don't know how to establish boundaries or how to start being myself with other people. Any thoughts and suggestions?  ???

Yes, I also like the idea of being safe and alone much better than being around people, who also seem dangerous/unpredictable to me. However, it seems it is just the idea i like, as staying isolated doesn't feel good either.

so how do you establish boundaries? first of all, it seems you must convince yourself that you are worthy of boundaries. think of it this way: every house has an area around it that is considered that house's property. while it may be ok that little children or dogs & cats wander in and out of your yard, you would think differently if the neighbor's all decided to use your yard as a waste receptacle or party area. Coming outside to find your neighbor in his pajamas in your lawn chair, reading your newspaper, you would recognize immediately that boundaries had been crossed! so we must see ourselves in this same light; we have a bubble of personal space, we have limits for tolerating others' behaviors.

a useful exercise an old counselor had me do was to write down my family's unwritten laws, and examine them objectively. each family has a set of (usually) unspoken/unwritten laws & rules; they are seldom stated plainly but they are expressed and expected. For example, two of my FOO's rules were  "don't draw public attention to yourself" and "never talk openly about your feelings". however many rules your family had, list all of them that you can think of, on one side of the paper. then, challenge each rule from an objective point of view - and write a new rule for yourself. so while on one side of the paper you may have "don't draw attention to yourself", on the other side of the paper you may have something like, "cut loose and have fun!"  and "don't talk about feelings" could become something like, "i will talk about my feelings when and if i need to" or  "my friends and i share our feelings openly & honestly".

after i did this exercise i was amazed at the blatantly dysfunctional set of rules i had internalized! it took some time with me reading and re-reading MY new set of rules for myself, daily or sometimes several times a day, to be able to replace them. (i also found i had to re-write some of my new rules to reflect my new, healthier outlook.)

right - so step 1 is "I'm worthy of boundaries" and step 2 is "here are my rules". now how do we apply them? it's not necessary to challenge people each time they violate a rule - in fact it could have just the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve. but  if someone is disturbing you, overstepping their authority in your life, intruding into your personal space (unwanted touch, etc) it is absolutely vital for your own mental health that you take whatever steps necessary to clearly establish the boundary that has been violated. there's an example of this in mr walker's book, where a woman who'd been repeatedly physically abused learn to stick up for herself at work. when a co-worker started touching her, she said nothing - but when the co-worker started letting the touches linger too long, out loud and in front of other co-workers she plainly stated, "i don't like it when you touch me. i don't want you to touch me anymore." the co-worker stopped his intrusive and unwelcome advances.

healthy people (yes, they really do exist) not only have their own boundaries, they expect you to have them too. they will appreciate knowing the limits of the relationship!
sorry this was so long. it was really helpful for me emotionally to say all this! thanks for listening.

Three Roses, don't apologize for the length, this really helped, this was exactly what I needed, thank you!  :)

I've started doing step 1, and it's a constant upkeep, but I had never heard of step 2. That's really great, I never thought of writing the unspoken rules of my FOO down before, but it makes a lot of sense! Like your family, my FOO had the same "Don't draw attention to yourself" and "Never talk openly about your feelings" rules, it's interesting to see them written down. I will probably take up this exercise as well, it seems like a great way of addressing my problems, thank you for this!  :)  :hug:

you are so welcome! it helps me, too, to be able to talk to you and the forum about this stuff. i'd be so interested to hear what you discover for yourself!

Hmmm I wonder at learned helplessness.
I wonder at what constitutes fawning, I have much doubt in my own self narrative on this. I want for those omitted paragraphs about males.
When people are kind, when people ask, weither its out of empathy or the fact that I can I just give without much thought or reservation. Simply because I can, which is a fine line because when you do kindness people are compelled to do kindness in turn and thats a slippery slope that leads to an uncomfortable amount of attention and prying at my vulnerability that my freezing can not allow. So I do things because I can, because I am so abandoned, like a cat content to have you in the same room but wont tolerate your affection I follow and keep a distance in some push pull. Is that a fawn trait, I never feel like what I do has any return or at least expect, or are these lies I tell myself... I dont know.. iv moved past being blindsided by the physical aspect of my anxiety disorder and have really started to pick at the core of my emotional lackings...

Three Roses, do you think it would be beneficial for me to write down the unspoken rules in my abusive relationship as well? For example, in my FOO one of the rules was: "Don't draw attention to yourself". However, with my ex, one of his rules was: "Draw attention to yourself by wearing revealing clothing". I adopted my ex's rules during the relationship even though they made me feel uncomfortable and went against some of my FOO's rules (that were also restrictive in their own way). What I'm left with now are two sets of different rules. Maybe it would be good for me to write both my FOO's rules and my relationship's rules down too (if that makes sense), what do you think?

By the way, it helps so much knowing that someone has gone through some of the same things, sharing tips on working through this is so great, thank you!  :thumbup:

Chairmanmeow (love the name by the way), I totally get what you're saying about being like a cat and being happy that someone is actually with me, but not being able to tolerate their affection. That could be because we're not used to having people express their affection towards us in a healthy way, and we view this as an automatic forfeit of our boundaries and identities? I think that's my take on relationships with other people that I tried to express in my previous posts, if that makes sense. I'd be curious to know about the passage omitted about men as well.

Im very much a freeze type in the way I handle boundaries, the more I pay attention those who have even a twisted source of affection will compromise to an extreme to get that cookie in that jar.
For me I was emotionally abandoned completely or enough that I severed myself from everyone. I have zero hopes and expectations, my boundaries are well formed trenches, land mines, barbwire fences and such.
With good reasons because instability in my attachments sends my world into chaos, my anxiety disorder to the point of intense physical suffering, and flood gates of the worst feelings.
But the whole freeze-fawn type resonates with me still... out side of boundaries, I ruthlessly self abandon not for gain but out of a sense of being totally lost, The effects of dissociation are strong in me, when I do have attachment I dont carry them lightly, I over invest, I cling to a necessity scarce in my world, and sometimes unwitting dissapear in the process I loose my sense of self I drift I fall apart I shut down again when this attachment causes me strife, I revert. I become blank and helpless. When I break it down it feels like two extremisms dictated by interpersonal distance to freeze and fawn those who are past those barriers.. or is this just the nature of freezing?

Chairmanmeow, what you are describing sounds a lot like how I feel too, about having no expectations of a connection with people, or viewing them as dangerous, but also self-abandoning, or forfeiting my boundaries and identity, when someone shows me kindness. From what I understand, this seems to fit the fawn-freeze hybrid type, as we often dissociate from people or hurtful situations, but we also fawn and merge ourselves to other people too. Currently, I'm trying to find ways to work through this problem as to be able to have a healthier relationship with people instead of either dissociating or fawning (or using a combination of both).

I hope this helps!  :)

Yeah thank you, It clears up much for me...
Its one of those things you feel but cant exactly put your finger on sometimes.
I think about my last relationship, she never thought beyond herself only thought of me when it had a bearing on herself.
Its only after the fact in these late hours I start to see the abuse in it. And that is still a bit of a struggle to actualize my heart is a door that is either completely open or shut. And that seems to be the hallmark of this hybrid type.

Which has me thinking, you ever here of helpers high, the reward you feel when you help and care for another. When you live in such a impoverished state even those tidbits are a significant something within a safe reach. I wonder if we dont find ourself inherently chasing that in some way...

That's interesting, I've never actually heard of helper's high. I don't know if you're referencing the actual need to help people, regardless of whether people want it or not, or if you're referring to tending to other people's needs and helping them with their problems because it's easier tending to other people's needs than to your own. In this case (the last example, and like my own situation), it would be a fawning response, as you would take care of other people's problems at the profit of your own needs. It seems that was the case with your last relationship. Where she took advantage of your help (and that's clearly abusive on her part), you also forfeited your boundaries and weren't maybe able to communicate your needs either. I hope I am making myself clear, and I am really not trying to blame you for her behavior. I think though that some of our fawn-freeze tendencies have the potential of attracting people who abuse our willingness to help.

Did that clarify anything?  :blink:

Those 2 paragraphs:
Finally, there is growing evidence that a significant number of men also silently suffer domestic violence. A male client once told me that no matter how much his wife assaulted him, he couldn't stop himself from saying "I'm sorry" to her. This only made her madder, but not as mad as when he flashbacked into saying: "I'm sorry for saying 'I'm sorry' ", even though his wife would slap him in the face every time he did. Not surprisingly, further investigation revealed a borderline mother who still slaps him in the face when she is displeased with him. As a child he was required to keep his hands down whenever she slapped him. He then had to apologize for making her "have to" punish him. Unfortunately, he left therapy after only a few sessions because his wife looked in his checkbook, and then hit him repeatedly for "wasting his time and her money."

Walker, Pete. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA (p. 135). Azure Coyote Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Helper's High is the name for the positive emotional state some people experience after providing help to others. Studies have shown that helping others can produce feelings of happiness and can activate reward centers of the brain just like food or drugs. Research also suggests that being kind and generous benefits both physical and mental health. So if you feel great after doing volunteer work or donating to charity, you can say you're "high" on helping.

Read more: http://www.alleydog.com/glossary/definition.php?term=Helper%27s%20High#ixzz4B1kOtV4l

I just caved in and got the ebook version... that girl and her whole family were messed up, when I looked back and was still blaming myself I found the way I was handling my stuff healthy and all the stuff they say dont do described everything she did. Everyone in her house was a bit of a narcissistic cutthroat sociopath, and they did not like me one bit. lol Its hard for me to find any balance when it comes to relationships Im allways ready to cut my losses keep everyone at a distance,
I will never make the mistake of loving someone with no emotional intellect again.
Establishing boundaries, open discussion, made her so caustic.. she would lash out, take things out of context hold them and bring them up month latter. At the end my nerves were so done I suffered a lot physically and she took it worst then I did, all i wanted was for to be their that was enough, she couldent "fix" me.. but even being supportive was imposable for her. When she realized she could no longer put everything on me is when she decided to abandon me. Thats the type of person she was, but having someone to care about, provided a distraction, gave me focus some reason to still be living.

Chairmanmeow, I totally get what you're saying, I can see parallels with your last relationship and mine. Although I don't think I experience helper's high, I think I get the concept. From what you're describing, I think you did everything you could in that relationship, as I did in mine. The fault lies with the people who abused us, not with us. But I think our fawn-freeze tendencies make it easier for us to stay in these kinds of abusive relationships without realizing we are being taken advantage of. Like you said, having someone to take care of, or just having someone there with us does really make us happy and satisfies a need we have. However, we seem to forfeit all our other needs in order to be with this person, and even when this person hurts us, we don't recognize it or expect them to take care of us and respect our needs. I think that addressing these tendencies can allow us to find healthier relationships with people who respect our needs, and in my case, it's pretty hard because I feel like people are dangerous and can't be trusted, and I tend to stay away from people all together. Until someone shows me a tiny bit of kindness, and that's when I'll forfeit my own needs and boundaries, and in the process, I open myself up to any kind of abuse. This is my case, and I'm not sure if that's how you feel, but from what I understand it fits in the fawn-freeze tendency.

The part about the client who couldn't stop apologizing really struck a chord with me, I have that problem too. I tend to apologize for situations that are clearly not my fault, and I've apologized countless times when other people hurt me, either physically or emotionally. I still have a problem apologizing and it's really hard to break free from that. For example, if I execute a move perfectly on someone in my MMA class, I will immediately apologize to them thinking that I've hurt them, even when they reassure me that I did everything correctly. I don't know if anyone else who has fawn-freeze tendencies can relate to that, but that really hit the nail on the head for me.

Yeah its ironic isnt it?
The inherit mistrust that must be overcome is go great, that the trust you give that person you let in makes an idiot of you when that person takes you for granted or advantage.
And I say to myself I love you, so I would never have such and such an attitude, thus is trust, and maybe the denial because if they have such an attitude then they are not worthy of my trust and banished back to the other end of the spectrum.

I really love this right now.. just breaking it down and being able to relate is kinda forcing what I over look and take for granted in myself in a kinda awesome and horrible perspective. Much appreciation..

I haven't read all the recent responses (have a small child being a bit clingy today, i think she's teething) but i just wanted to say a huge thanks to Three Roses for your response regarding boundaries. I can see how writing down my FOO rules and challenging them will be really beneficial as I know one of the biggest ones was "keep quiet in order to keep safe" and so that has lead to me allowing people to walk all over me.

I also wanted to say LanaBanana that i 100% relate to not letting people in and them doing it to readily once kindness is shown. For me specifically in romantic relationships. And like others I then freak out and pull away. As for friends I just isolate myself.

It's unfortunately sad that we end up in these situations because of how dysfunctional and abusive our FOO was. That's why we have to recognize our own dysfunctional tendencies and address them so that we can break that pattern. In my case, it feels uncomfortable and stressful when I am with people who treat me right, because being treated badly and being abused is what I know and has become "comfortable" for me. It seems harder for me to recognize when I am being abused because it is what I expect in a way.

It's a sad situation and takes a lot of work to overcome, I hope that you're able to sort of piece your situation together in order to break free from that and learn to have healthier relationships. You deserve so much better than the abuse you've been through Chairmanmeow  :hug:

Also thank you Silverlight for your input, it helps knowing that I'm not alone in this  :)

Wow. This is a great thread. Thanks so much for all your sharing.

Quote from: Three Roses on June 08, 2016, 05:02:43 PM
a useful exercise an old counselor had me do was to write down my family's unwritten laws, and examine them objectively. each family has a set of (usually) unspoken/unwritten laws & rules; they are seldom stated plainly but they are expressed and expected. For example, two of my FOO's rules were  "don't draw public attention to yourself" and "never talk openly about your feelings". however many rules your family had, list all of them that you can think of, on one side of the paper. then, challenge each rule from an objective point of view - and write a new rule for yourself. so while on one side of the paper you may have "don't draw attention to yourself", on the other side of the paper you may have something like, "cut loose and have fun!"  and "don't talk about feelings" could become something like, "i will talk about my feelings when and if i need to" or  "my friends and i share our feelings openly & honestly".

That sounds like a useful exercise, thanks.
My first reaction is though that there were no rules... That is: While my parents were very strict and enforced rules with physical and verbal violence, they broke their own rules repetitively. Nut I guess I should still be able to draw up a list of rules that we kids should abide too, even if they didn't.

Quote from: arpy1 on June 08, 2016, 02:36:35 PM
the reluctance, D/U i am wondering about.  i don't find it easy to relate to that becos of never having done it reluctantly. maybe it is a kind of flight/fight shield that you have adopted to prevent anyone having the chance to hurt you again? kind of like how i self isolate and avoid humans in general? interesting.

I'm a bit puzzled about this myself. But I think the best example of me giving up my boundaries reluctantly is when I stopped running from my physically abusive 'father' and said "OK, hit me. I don't care." I literally gave up on my boundaries, on my "Flight" even, my self-protection/self-preservation, but not because I thought/felt it was OK he would hit me. I resigned in my fate, or some such. If I was not able to escape the inevitable beating, which I wasn't: he always would corner me in the end and hit me, I might as well give up on protecting that boundary. Reluctantly.

"My first reaction is though that there were no rules... That is: While my parents were very strict and enforced rules with physical and verbal violence, they broke their own rules repetitively."

This sounds familiar; my FOO also had a similar code I would state as, "you are a child, we're adults. Don't question our authority or else!"  They were also highly inconsistent, doing/saying/expecting one thing one day and the opposite the next.

In fact, one of my dad's favorite sayings was, "Don't do as I do, do as I tell you."

thanks guys, this thread really resonates with me, and i think the idea of writing down the unwritten rules could be a helpful exercise for me, both for my FOO and for the cult i spent so many years in. trouble is i am terrified of doing it! even thinking about it is horribly triggering, not for the FOO so much as for the cult years.  that had the deepest and most damaging impact on me i think. maybe i might start by writing down just one and then get over that one until over time i compile a list?

i was watching a very interesting Youtube vid about Robert Lifton's eight principles of Thought Reform which come out of his seminal work on brainwashing done when he studied Korean POWs in the second half of the 20th C. One of the principles is about  unwritten rules and the way they work in a group, whether a family, a one on one or a larger group.  they formed a huge part of my cult experience and deeply affect me still.  powerful and frightening stuff. i hate that i was so gullible and easily subverted even though i know intellectually that i was not to blame for being taken in. horrible.

Quote from: arpy1 on June 09, 2016, 09:21:32 AM
thanks guys, this thread really resonates with me, and i think the idea of writing down the unwritten rules could be a helpful exercise for me, both for my FOO and for the cult i spent so many years in. trouble is i am terrified of doing it! even thinking about it is horribly triggering, not for the FOO so much as for the cult years.  that had the deepest and most damaging impact on me i think. maybe i might start by writing down just one and then get over that one until over time i compile a list?

One is a baby step.  :applause:
Alternatively, if your FOO is less triggering, why not start there? With one?

:hug:

Iv had much to think about.
The fawning aspect of myself is something I never got a clear view into so I will post some insights that came about the last couple days personally. I dont know where this going to go...

Iv allways been a strong freeze type, I am the most profoundly abandoned person, I isolate I keep a distance in my interpersonal relationships, Im allways ready to cut my losses. But something happens when people do get close to me, you cant really freeze when you have a close intimate relationship, its not effective and I have no desire too, a starving man will eat food off the floor without much thought.
Those who get past those frozen walls come at the cost of great amounts of trust, and when your world is so isolated just the warmth of a touch brings about an ecstasy of depth of emotion the ability to even process some hurt safely and comforted, which just presses that bond with a profound deepness that the other party may not even be aware of or experiencing. At that point if you made the mistake of drifting to a narcissistic personality (which is the tendency, when they desire you they do so in such a clear way its almost imposable not to fall into their comforts when you have such a disposition) your pretty much fcked. They become the only source of relief and humanity you experience, you give to them everything you know you need hoping for reciprocation, and the animals that they are they dont work that way. But somehow your ok with that because even a little bit of affection is better then the world of isolation numbness and pain you habitat without them.  Dependency becomes a choice, tearing away I think is even more painful to my type then those more balanced.
Ill share something embarrassing in its own way but also revealing because it confounded me for the longest time in myself and puts the nature of this all in a stunning perspective. 8 years with someone you develop a healthy sexual relationship. We tried new things she liked to tie me up. My own mind is a confusing thing, I found myself letting go without the elements of disassociation, being desired and not able to really go anywhere or do anything left me with no expectations to agonize over, no choice but to accept comfort and love, fully embrace a fawn response unhindered by freeze tendencies. Only to come out of it being shamed by your own inner critic for reasons your can put your finger on other then fear of being so open and genuine. A embarrassing self loathing at the triggering of a freer state like a switch to accept and take and fawn, and indulge in those emotions usually tied to pain.
Its not hard to grasp the emergence of a sub culture full of narcissists and freeze-fawn types, I dont think its a healthy thing either for everyone involved, but thats my opinion. I think Freeze-Fawns live in a world of two extremisms. I dont think Im capibal of having a healthy relationship anymore, even with good boundaries I give in great amounts what I need and the tendency for narcissism is culturally endorsed and measured on the rise. I cant give a little kindness is a trap I fall thoroughly into against my will and my frozen distrust and isolation just push me to hide to deeply into fawning making me Isolated and emotionally reliant on someone who doesnt understand me or my broken needs. I think Im going to give up on relationships Im not good for myself or other people and this is beyond regulation..

Chairmanmeow, I really feel for you. There have been so many times I've wanted to give up on people all together, and I still think I am fundamentally better off alone. But as you said, I end up starved for human contact and find myself in bad relationships with narcissists or unhealthy people. I think that in order to break that pattern, we have to address the fawn-freeze tendencies we have, as well as our Inner Critic, and it's really, really hard. Although you alone know what's best for you, I urge you not to give up on relationships and people entirely. You came to OOTS for a reason, and I suspect you want to heal from the years of abuse you suffered. Don't give up on finding meaningful relationships with healthy people, and don't give up on your own recovery process. It's long and confusing and hard, but I personally think it's worth it.

You said that your Inner Critic kicks in during times when you felt free with someone else. That voice of self-loathing is from the extensive abuse that you suffered for years, and it's stopping you from being able to form healthy bonds with people. But it's not impossible to break free from that voice. You can learn to quiet it down a little with practice, so that you can be able to let go and have a connection with someone. I personally think it is not impossible, and I believe that with time and practice and the right resources, you can heal and let go of your fawn-freeze tendencies.

I hope this helps, I know that recovery is a long and hard process. I hope you don't give up on it though  :hug:  :hug:

Very interesting to read.
Do you guys know if you can be a Freeze first- then fawn second?
and also, do you know if you can be a Freeze Flight type?
ive never heard of Freeze Flight but think that that is me.
Thanks

Awesome! Thank you Three Roses  :)

Yes Sienna, there is that type - but just from reading your posts i can tell you you don't seem even close to this type. i want that to really, really sink in before you even read this. you are a warm and caring, sensitive and loving individual with a heart for honesty and justice. at least that's how u come across here. with that being said, and bcuz i said i would, I'll type it out for you but not completely as i think parts of it would do more harm than good for you, at this point.

P 127 of Pete walker's "complex PTSD; surviving to thriving" book states: "The fight-freeze ... demands that things go his way, but he is not much interested in having any human interaction. no one gets to talk at the table, not even him - unless of course someone needs to be put in their place.... The fight-freeze type is a John Wayne couch potato, dominating family life with foul moods and monosyllabic grunts and curses. he is typically as untreatable as the extreme fight types mentioned earlier."

Hey three roses, thanks a lot for your reply.
I think you may have misread what I wrote/
You thought I meant I think I am a fight type but I think I am a freeze-flight (run away type)
I know  counter dependant and maybe co-dependant. Maybe I flip and I very much "used" to be a fawn people pleading type who would also escape myself by listening to others problems but I never felt any worth from doing for others 
I fawn if it eases the situation but not to make others like me.
T says I'm definitely freeze and they I'm very flighty.
Hope this makes sense.
Like my mother I can be fight but I'm much more avoidant - so you are right. Thank you.
Do u know if freeze-flight is a type?
Ps. Thank you for your compliment.
What did u mean when u said it would do more damage than good!

Ugh they was meant to be a ? At the end!

Yup, I sure did misread what type you wanted to hear about! I'm so relieved lol, that 4F type sounded really negative in the book and I was super afraid it would hurt your feelings, and that is the last thing is ever want to do! Whew! Ok I'll put my glasses on and get back to you! :D

Hey Three Roses, I'm sorry you worried!
If I was that type, it wouldn't be cool and I guess it might be rare if I accepted it-
But I would be researching reasons why I'm like that.
You defiantly I didn't hurt my feelings - the article didn't.
Thank you so much for researching for me from the book.
I have it but have no space on my phone to download it a again and I don't know how to fox it-
I really appreciate you doing this for me  :hug:

Sienna, there is no freeze/flight. There is a flight/freeze type but seems this would be different than what you're looking for? Anyway, if you think of something else I'll look for it for you. :)

The Flight-Freeze Hybrid The Flight-Freeze type is the least relational and most schizoid hybrid. He prefers the safety of do-it-yourself isolationism. Sometimes this type may also be misdiagnosed as Asperger's Syndrome. The flight-freeze type avoids potential relationship-retraumati-zation with an obsessive-compulsive/ dissociative "two-step." Step one is working to complete exhaustion. Step two is collapsing into extreme "veging out", and waiting until his energy reaccumulates enough to relaunch into step one. The price for this type of no-longer-necessary safety is a severely narrowed existence. The flight-freeze cul-de-sac is more common among men, especially those traumatized for being vulnerable in childhood. This then drives them to seek safety in isolation or "intimacy-lite" relationships. Some non-alpha type male survivors combine their flight and freeze defenses to become stereotypical technology nerds. Telecommuting is, of course, their preferred mode. Flight-freeze types are the computer addicts who focus on work for long periods of time and then drift off dissociatively into computer games, substance abuse or sleep-bingeing. Flight-freeze types are prone to becoming porn addicts. When in flight mode, they obsessively surf the net for phantom partners and engage in compulsive masturbation. When in freeze mode, they drift off into a right-brain sexual fantasy world if pornography is unavailable. Moreover, if they are in intimacy-lite relationship, they typically engage more with their idealized fantasy partners than with their actual partner during real time sexual interactions.

Walker, Pete. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA (pp. 125-126). Azure Coyote Publishing. Kindle Edition.

If it helps...

Three Roses,
That is what i found too. Thank you for having a look.
Can you not be a freeze type first? Then have a second trauma hybrid??
Pete Walker said that not many are Freeze with Freeze hybrid.
He said not many are pure freeze types.

Sorry if you dont know- its ok if not...just wondering...
If you are a flight type with Freeze second...it doesnt make sense..because when relating to others- i just freeze like in therapy.
And in my other relationship with X i was very avoidant and would isolate.  But its not just simply because he was a narc. I was very closed off to begin with, though he did not help.
I am like this with others though. Avoidant. Avoidant of social situations. Avoidant of being honest and authentic.

Basically, does anyone know if Freeze always comes second? if its a second trauma hybrid?

Thanks a lot chairman meow.

I related a lot to this when i read it in Pete Walkers book. (cant re-download - problem with space on phone and dont know how to fix it at the moment)

I think i may be this type, the counter-dependant has been described as being a work aholic. the only bit i dont relate to is working a lot.
During a crisis i run away- flighty.
and after an argument i run- then freeze right away.

Think my dad is a flight type. He is very avoidant and so was my mother.
my mother- counter-dependant. Narc- so also co-dependant on others. well being counter-depdnant means needing others there who you can be counter dependant off.
Dad- co-dependant possibly- abusive relationships.
man I'm confused. maybe i dont have a definite type but am all of them.
but ive heard people are more one than the other.

Thanks a lot. I think ill take this to T and ask her what she thinks.
A way you behave so often, and i cant *see* what i do. Maybe thats part of the denial of the freeze type.
Thanks so much.

Ok, just reading the website- pete walker.
says:
The entitled fight type commonly uses others as an audience for his incessant monologizing, and may treat a "captured" freeze or fawn type as a slave or prisoner in a dominance-submission relationship.
So being a freeze and with a narc in an abusive relationship - that happened to me.
I used to be afraid of not doing what he wanted- for the re-procussions. Definitely learned from my parents.
But he was mad at me because i was so avoidant and closed off. -Because i wouldnt talk about anything intimate or personal, rare that i did, and it had to be more about other people- and not about how i *felt*.
We were both avoidant. Him more- co-dependant i thought at the time, before i knew he was a narc. But he is co-dependant. All narcs are.
he tried to get me to talk and invaded my boundaries. He tried to fix me.
I tried to fix him but didnt know i was doing that for a long time.

I might have reminded him of his parents perhaps - being closed off. With holding love. I just couldnt give him love as he hurt me and betrayed my trust over and over but i couldnt leave him for not trusting my own feelings, thinking it was all in my head despite my feelings of rage, and i used to act like my mother. So angry.
Until i learned that i had to hold it in like i had to in the past with my parents. I started smoking.

So yes, i always thought, sure I'm co-dpednant but more counter.
now it makes sense, but I'm still not sure.
sorry. ugh.

Freezing only is effective as a last resort with no other options, I believe what you say has a ring of truth in this particular nature, the way we deal with people and situations when they have a far interpersonal distance is very different then our reactions dealing with those he need or have a very close interpersonal attachment to.
I am a heavy freeze type but when attachments are close I fawn. So rather then being a rather submissive Fawn- Freeze
I keep ruthless boundaries and break down into codependency when my trust is earned...
Pete kept his hybrid list to what he was an expert in but I think if you break own your traits and organize your tendencies to a close and far interpersonal distance and take a good look at your coping method with your FOO you will sort out your particular nuances... Between all of us we could prob make a complete hybrid list I bet

Actually the more I think the more sense you make lol
you can run from situations that are far enough to throw away, Flight
You cant run from situations that are close and your invested in, it sounds like you flight realize you cant go and thus you freeze.
Thats kinda how it seems to me..

Freezing only is effective as a last resort with no other options,
Right- now i get it! Thanks!
Ok, now this is all fitting into place in nice neat little ordered boxes in my mind - it now makes sense!
If you are eg. a flight - freeze-
as an adult, you might jump straight to freeze- and could be a heavy freeze type (thus making you think that you are freeze first- because you are mostly freeze)
The reason you are mostly freeze, is because the other defences you used, did not work, were not allowed, etc. so you started freezing.
So now, sometimes the first defence you developed works for you-
but you mostly jump to the one that ALWAYS worked.
man this makes sense.
Thank you billions.

the way we deal with people and situations when they have a far interpersonal distance is very different then our reactions dealing with those he need or have a very close interpersonal attachment to.
Yes, i like the way you phrased this.

I am a heavy freeze type but when attachments are close I fawn. So rather then being a rather submissive Fawn- Freeze
I keep ruthless boundaries and break down into codependency when my trust is earned...
I think i do this too. I'm always scared so i dont know if being scared and untrustworthy whilst being desperate for connection makes a difference.
Sometimes I'm numb and on auto pilot doing it just trying to survive. and I'm terrified to be alone.
i do tend to rush deep into relationships then pull back and am avoidant again.
if you are familiar with astrolgoy- i launch head first into love like an aries in love when it comes ...and like to delve deep and not waste time like a Scorpio.

Yes , i agree, and thank you for the suggestion. I need to gather up all the traits and look at them.
t I think if you break own your traits and organize your tendencies to a close and far interpersonal distance and take a good look at your coping method with your FOO you will sort out your particular nuances... Between all of us we could prob make a complete hybrid list I bet

haha, im glad I'm making sense! :thumbup:

You cant run from situations that are close and your invested in, it sounds like you flight realize you cant go and thus you freeze.
Yes, i think so too. Apparently using alcohol etc and nicotine to numb out is flighty, not dissociative. But i thought it was because alcohol numbs you like dissociation.
if you jump straight to these and dont leave, then i see that as freezing, even if you can run away (Flight), sometimes, i just dont and dont have the energy.

Hey guys!

Thanks for posting this, but now I'm really confused...  ??? What's the difference between freeze and flight types and how they relate to fawning? I use alcohol to cope too, but I thought it was more of a dissociating response (that would fit into the freeze type). I use it primarily to numb what I'm feeling, not necessarily to escape a situation, if that makes sense?  :blink:

Hi! I'm jumping into this as a total newbie to all of it. I believe that I am a fawn/freeze. Here's why:

I will try to predict what you expect of me and to do that before you ask. If I've made you wait and ask, I want to do it RIGHT AWAY. If it's something I hate or don't want to do, or that hurts me, I will freeze into myself hoping it will go away before I have to respond. I hate hurting others feelings, even if they've trampled mine. You can hate me, I can cope. But, believing I let you down - I am crushed! If I can't immediately make it better, even denying my sincere thoughts and feelings on the matter, I will do all I can. If I know that nothing will be enough, then I'll hide inside my own head. I can get so deep in there that others have been astonished at what it took to get my attention!

I think that a fawn/flight would react like this: I will anticipate your needs and do all I can to make you happy and comfortable. But, if I get the (inevitable to me) impression that it isn't enough, I would try to control what I can by making sure everything is like it was LAST time things were ok. If I only felt ok last time when I (lined up all the cans in the cabinet, alphabetized the CD rack, scrubbed everything until it shown), then I need to do that again. Maybe I'll get that OK feeling again.

Alcohol can be a handy tool for the dissociation of freezing. It usually is a one way ticket into your own head, but has the tendency to turn the windows opaque, so you don't have to see too much on your journey.

I think what makes them distinctive as far as self medication gos is attitude.
Are you passive and lean to a learned helplessness, a sort of self abandonment which is a freeze tendency, to resign..
Or to flight active escape, to get as far away by whatever means, it takes much more energy, and flight types find comfort in burning energy and movement even if it takes them no place, hence the OCD tendencies.

Hey  Lana banana
I can't send the to you but if you are able to read Pete walkers book -c PTAs/ from surviving to thriving it if you google freeze fawn trauma hybrid Pete walker it will explain.

Flight types run away instead of freeze. They are active: working a lot -going out - except sizing may be partying. Always  Buisy. OCD is very flighty behaviour. These are ways they run and distract from pain.
Freeze are inactive. They numb out, fantasise- basically they go into themselves. Avoid others.
Can do drugs to  achieve the disassociative numbing out effect .
It's not  abnormal for a phone type to use alcohol .
Any type of content alcohol but I think that it is a more freeze response .
Everyone has bits of all of the trauma trauma types in them.
  Wanting to know what you're feeling is understandable  totally .
Sounds like from my new found knowledge thanks to three roses, that you fawned, then froze and ended up freezing more as that was your only real option as a child.
Correct me if u think  wrong.
So now you freeze and use alcohol to numb / to achieve they feeling of being disassociated.
The dawn thing may come up now and again and sometimes you may fight or or flee but they are not your main responses.
Does that make sense?
Not sure if I'm right.
Pete  rocket talks about the phone flight as well on his website.  I think anyway or I might be thinking about the phone fight.
I think that my dad might be iPhone 5 it was a narcissist and he was very avoidant and run away a lot but that could be him dissociating .
It's all very confusing
I hope this helped

Thank you Sienna, Chairmanmeow and Wife#2! I'm way more passive than I am active, so given what all of you have written, I'd fall into the freeze category rather than the flight one. That helped a lot, thanks!  :)

Also, has anyone ever dissociated to the point of falling asleep? It sounds weird, and I can't find anything about it anywhere, but it's like at some point during a dissociation episode, your body shuts down and you have the uncontrollable urge to sleep, even if you were perfectly awake 2 minutes ago. It has nothing to do with being tired, but it feels more like you have no control over your own body, kind of like narcolepsy. Has anyone ever had that?  ???

Thanks!  :thumbup:

"Freeze types often present as ADD; they seek refuge and comfort in prolonged bouts of sleep, daydreaming, wishing and right brain-dominant activities like TV, computer and video games...."  full info on all 4 types here - http://pete-walker.com/fourFs_TraumaTypologyComplexPTSD.htm

Dissociation allows the freeze type to disconnect from experiencing his abandonment pain, and protects him from risky social interactions - any of which might trigger feelings of being retraumatized. If you are a freeze type, you may seek refuge and comfort by dissociating in prolonged bouts of sleep, daydreaming, wishing and right-brain-dominant activities like TV, online browsing and video games. Freeze types sometimes have or appear to have Attention Deficit Disorder [ADD]. They often master the art of changing the internal channel whenever inner experience becomes uncomfortable. When they are especially traumatized or triggered, they may exhibit a schizoid-like detachment from ordinary reality. And in worst case scenarios, they can decompensate into a schizophrenic experience like the main character in the book, I Never Promised You a Rose Garden.

Walker, Pete. Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving: A GUIDE AND MAP FOR RECOVERING FROM CHILDHOOD TRAUMA (p. 118). Azure Coyote Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thanks guys!  :)

Are the bouts of sleep sudden and totally out of your control? I've had depressive episodes where I've overslept, felt lethargic, and found comfort in sleep. I was referring to a sort of sudden and uncontrollable urge to sleep while dissociating. I don't know if they are the same or if that's what Pete Walker meant.

Thanks for the responses!  :thumbup:

Depression when its not chemical (brain chemistry, clinical depression)
Is often the same as extreme disassociation the flip side of shutting down from anxiety overdrive.

So I imagine the side effects of depression would translate...

Thanks Chairmanmeow, I'm not too sure if that answers my question, but thanks!  :thumbup:

 Nana banana I have that too. Where your suddenly do tired u just need to lie down and sleep.
I have read online that that can happen.
And as a freeze true oversleeping is something Pete walker talks about.
Do u feel that hour limbs are  heavy when you ate disassociated abs need to fall asleep?
I think it's similar to being drunk or stoned. Hope this helps.  :hug:

Yes, that's exactly how I feel, thank you Sienna!  :hug:

When my ex would get violent, I'd end up dissociating to the point where this would happen to me, I'd suddenly start falling asleep even though I wasn't tired. It felt like I had no control over my own body, and it made my ex even more upset.

Thank you for your reply!  :thumbup:

 :hug:
I'm sorry you had a violent X.
It's must have Bryan terrible that he got mad they you fell asleep.
I hope that you u understand that it's not your fault being so tired like that. And therefore, it wasn't your fault they your X was upset.

uku defi story are not alone in experiencing this. Oh and just thought - even though huh are not tired then u disassociate and are tired due to that, I have found that when the disassociation suddenly lifts. I'm not tired anymore and sometimes I can't sleep when so tired when disassociated.
After it it's like someone flipped a switch and going into disassociation can feel like that to me sometimes.
Sometimes I just want to stay wake as I enjoy sometimes that disassociated feeling Snd I end up being just so tired though whilst experiencing it. Now I'm just rambling.

Thank you for your support Sienna!!  :hug:
I think I get what you mean of not being able to fall asleep afterwards. Dissociative episodes are weird, I don't think I fully understand them yet  :blink:

Quote from: chairmanmeow on June 09, 2016, 05:15:26 PM
We tried new things she liked to tie me up. My own mind is a confusing thing, I found myself letting go without the elements of disassociation, being desired and not able to really go anywhere or do anything left me with no expectations to agonize over, no choice but to accept comfort and love, fully embrace a fawn response unhindered by freeze tendencies. Only to come out of it being shamed by your own inner critic for reasons your can put your finger on other then fear of being so open and genuine.

I just wanted to say to chairmanmeow that this is what brought me to OOTS in the first place, so you're not alone. I fell for someone quickly who promised control and to take care of those things that I always wanted taking care of as a child. Only to find they were not there outside this type of relationship - that it was for their own gratification when I tried to establish healthy boundaries (to which I'm still questioning but it's a learning process).  So, you're not alone in feeling that when you come out of something like this that it's you, and you're just not lovable or why did I choose someone like this, what's wrong with me.

I've been in this situation before and I think what's helped me this time with someone who's emotionally unavailable (after recognizing I had CPTSD and starting EMDR with a good therapist) was that I noticed when I started to "spin out" when he would be emotionally distant. So, I had started on the inklings of a healthy self in the first place and could see that something was off. I stuck with it (the research - trying to find out why I was spinning out in the first place) and it eventually led me here. Even though I knew about CPSTD, and that I had it, I couldn't recognize that I was in a flashback because of this person's behaviour. In Pete Walkers book, it's the freeze type and the fawn that have the most buried sense of self (but I'll need to double check that!). So, it's no wonder this feelings are so hard to place.  :fallingbricks: