Ok...please could someone let me know what they think might be happening here?
Sounds like hoovering to me...and I'm not sure his feelings are genuine.
Even if they are...i cant have any sort of relationship with my X.
And does this new girlfriend know he sent this message?
Little backstory-
at refuge due to things narc X did after he broke off our nine year relationship.
I left the house in a panic, and then a day later, he had packed all my things in to bin bags and told me to come and get it - via a text- on my birthday.
His new girlfriend moved strait in- they were in bed together that night before i had moved out- despite him knowing i was uncomfortable with that until i moved out...he did ask..but went against what he promised.
She had been using a present he gave to me for christmas.
He insisted he pay my phone contract when we were together- as i oculdnt afford it.
Its now comming to an end, and at volunteering, he told me he has to cancel it-
which is what i wanted when i had the money to pay for it myself. Only i still don't have the money.
I wrote about it in Emotional flashbacks, titled
Feel unsafe, simply having my clothes back at refuge- is this normal???
It feels wrong pasting his email...i just don't know what else to do..and I'm feeling quite alone...
His email:
Hey,
It was actually really nice talking to you today, even if it was only superficial!
Anyways, I was thinking on the bus, and I can't leave you without a phone, especially the internet - I know how much you love Youtube and stuff.
I've took out a sim-only contract for you, so you get to keep the same number, although what you get will be slightly different.
You now get:
200 minutes,
Unlimited Data (30 gb of which you can use with personal hotspot)
Unlimited texts.
Actually, I think the only bit which changes is your minutes.
Anyways, I'm not sure what sort of shape your phone is in, so I'm going t get you an iPhone 6 if youll let me.
I don't want anything for either the contract or the phone, call it a christmas present or something.
Anyways, what I said before still stands: I am here for you if you ever need anything, and for what it's worth, I miss you.
Hope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.
Take care,
XX
He cant see that what he did was wrong, when i went to therapy to change my behaviour towards him. He misses me? It seemed like he couldn't wait to get rid of me.
I don't know what to do about this. I don't want him to pay.
Never again will i rely on him to help me out with anything...and i wish i never did.
I told him thanks, but that i just don't trust that he will pay it (and its not his job).
Quote from: Sienna on September 23, 2016, 10:01:51 AM
Ok...please could someone let me know what they think might be happening here?
Sounds like hoovering to me...and I'm not sure his feelings are genuine.
Even if they are...i cant have any sort of relationship with my X.
And does this new girlfriend know he sent this message?
IMHO, the answer to your (understandable) dilemma lies in the bolded part.
I'll dissect his e-mail, as
I read it. Which is of course my subjective take on it. With my Narc-radar on full power. Mind you, I'm a novice in Narc-radar training.
QuoteHey,
It was actually really nice talking to you today, even if it was only superficial!
Reads as: "Hmmm.. nice... superficial... just what I want. Best.Deal.Evah!"QuoteAnyways, I was thinking on the bus, and I can't leave you without a phone, especially the internet - I know how much you love Youtube and stuff.
Honeymooning. "I'm such a sweet guy! I know what you like and what you want. I'm just the perfect guy to give it you."QuoteI've took out a sim-only contract for you, so you get to keep the same number, although what you get will be slightly different.
"So I get to keep her number. Anything could happen. Got to keep that (Narc) supply under the press of a button. I might need it some day."QuoteAnyways, I'm not sure what sort of shape your phone is in, so I'm going t get you an iPhone 6 if you'll let me.
He's got you begging for mercy. (If you like music: this is an awesome tune relating to this: Mercy (with lyrics) by
Duffy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJCrb1oNbH4)) This is not a gift, if you take it: You will have asked for it! He's just being very generous!
"Don't you forget this, Sienna! I'm your benevolent X!"Remember the http://onlinecounsellingcollege.tumblr.com/post/137408111161/how-to-deal-with-emotional-manipulators
QuoteHow to Deal with Emotional Manipulators
1. Don't negotiate with them. For emotional manipulators, it's all about having, exerting and gaining more power. So they'll always push for more and they'll never compromise.
2. Don't engage with them. Don't try to talk, or reason, or discuss some matter with them - as they'll try to twist your motives, and leave you feeling "bad".
3. Don't confront them. They're quick to take offense and they love an argument. They'll then turn and attack you – and never let things go.
4. Know your own personal buttons. They'll aim to press your buttons to get a strong reaction. But knowing yourself well means you have the upper hand. Plan how to "not react" and to stay detached and calm.
5. Refuse to accept help as they'll treat you like "you owe them". You'll then be in their debt – so it's hard to feel you're free.
QuoteI don't want anything for either the contract or the phone, call it a christmas present or something.
"Great, I'll have her hooked at least until X-mas. That'll be the most excellent opportunity to hoover again. Hmmm... what will I text then... Hmmm... "Hi honey, merry X-mas. How's the iPhone 6 holding up? Enjoying it? I knew you would. xxx, X."... yeah, that sounds awesome. Awesome me that is!"QuoteAnyways, what I said before still stands: I am here for you if you ever need anything, and for what it's worth, I miss you.
He doesn't. He's keeping you on a leash until he
will miss you. When he has entered the discard-phase of his current conquest. But even then you will just be a tool to get to her. It's not really "missing" in a sense we understand.
QuoteHope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.
Take care,
XX
As Maya Angelou has said: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." This bolded part sounds pretty ominous to me. And it probably proves the phone is just a tool to keep track of you. Mind you, all Apple products have a "where is my phone/laptop/etc" function. I can actually see where this laptop I'm typing this on is on a map. (I guess I have to have WiFi or other internet-connection on for it to be able to do that.) If he buys the phone, what's keeping him from using that function? Especially when it's in
his name?
Don't take the poisoned pill, I'd say.
QuoteHe cant see that what he did was wrong, when i went to therapy to change my behaviour towards him. He misses me? It seemed like he couldn't wait to get rid of me.
I don't know what to do about this. I don't want him to pay.
Never again will i rely on him to help me out with anything...and i wish i never did.
I told him thanks, but that i just don't trust that he will pay it (and its not his job).
It's blatantly obvious he couldn't wait to get rid of you. And to get his new conquest in
your his last X-mas present.
Probably the biggest "up yours" you can give him is to not reply, sort the phone/internet access thingy out on your own, and when you have let him know in the next hoover (which probably be in the vain off:
"Hey, I got you the iPhone anyway, where can I drop it off?") "Thanks for your gallantry, but I got it sorted out already, bye!" and let him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you. He won't be able to control his need for letting
her know how much leeway her leash gives her. But that is their mutual problem, not yours.
:hug:
Oh my gosh Dutch, thank you so much ! Thank you so much for being here!
You are so good with this stuff. I will reply properly when i can.
Your so kind, i can't tell you how much i appreciate your ongoing support. I hope your ok Dutch. :hug:
Quote from: Sienna on September 23, 2016, 11:23:06 AM
I hope your ok Dutch. :hug:
Yesterday I called the cops on trespassing DramaMama, which counts as progress I guess. I feel pretty OK about my (non?-)reaction to her (narc) behavior.
You sharing your experiences surely help me getting 'tuned in' on my narc-radar, I suppose.
Together we stand strong, and strong we stand together. :grouphug:
Oooh, Dutch that sounds serious.
It sounds like progress yes...You have taken an action to keep yourself safe and i think thats great. :thumbup:
Its sad that it is this way for you, and i hope you are not feeling too unsafe, though of course, thats very understandable.
I am here should you want to talk about things...and I'm really glad you let me know how you are doing.
Its so great that we can stand strong together :hug:
Take good care, both of you :hug:
Hey Dutch,
Just replying to your previous message.
Thank you so much for your insight on the email. You brought up things that i would have never have thought of.
And i want you to know, ..only reply if and when you feel like it. I know you have a lot going on.
I never looked into *hoovering* that much- knowing that its a possibility it could happen, but thinking that it never would, or that if it did, it would be years down the line when he finishes * his new girl.
You have always been here, and i know you had a good knowledge on narcs.
There was no much for him to gain at all IMO at the way i responded to him in our *superficial* interaction.
Honeymooning definitely. A term i hadn't heard before.
He doesnt know, that the internet is my survival strategy to me. I need the forum and i need videos- watching narc vids helped me during the time we split
Quote"So I get to keep her number. Anything could happen. Got to keep that (Narc) supply under the press of a button. I might need it some day."
This is so super scary.
Exactly. He is getting me the new phone anyway it sounds, where as before he wrote that he *will* he said that he will only if ill *let him*.
In the relationship, talk about begging for mercy.
He needed approval and validation and to know that he was appreciated so bad, always doing practical things for me- well, things he wanted to do...and he picked a perfect partner - me, who was unable to show appreciation as much as i needed- despite his behaviour. I inherited my mothers reluctance???...awkwardness at being thankful, maybe because i don't trust others well.
He has a very co-dependant side to him (and yes, i know all narcs are co-dependant) But he may have been in a way, forcing my appreciation upon him because he needed it so much.
And thank you too Duch for the link on how to deal with emotional manipulators.
The very idea that if i accepted his offer of a phone etc and him paying, he could do what he liked with it- could stop the payment - i knew that and i wont let him pay for me...
but also..it opens avenue for communication from him even after i have the phone he gives me.
And the fact that apple devices have a tracking device- that is terrifying to me. This will not be happening!
QuoteWhen he has entered the discard-phase of his current conquest. But even then you will just be a tool to get to her. It's not really "missing" in a sense we understand.
It makes me so sad to think that, he doesnt care about this girl who used to be my friend.
That if i fell for this, he might use me to hurt her. I already opted out of the triangulation via contact with her that i think he wanted to happen.
Even though she did what she did...i don't want her to get hurt.
I even don't want her to hurt him..but in my angry moments- i couldnt care less- but thats another unprocessed part of me talking.
QuoteHope you're really OK, and I'll come find you when I've got you the phone.
Oh,...so its
not really my choice! He is getting the phone then anyway!
Its a bit too late, Where was he when he threw me out, and during the difficult times that have followed since i have been with out him?
It so sad. I havent been able to access any sadness, and for my own safety after we split- and for being at the refuge- i oculdnt express my anger- so it disappeared.
I still cant feel anger and definitely not sadness properly at all-
but the interaction and his hook- him asking me how i was the other day made me feel sad.
And it feels wrong to ignore his supposed *kindness*, and its sad-
but i know if have to do it.
Of course, i wonder if its just my own lack of trust as he would say...my radar has been up big time (well-it always was)...but i worry I'm destroying friendships because of my own trust issues.
Maybe i am- it was always both of us in the relationship..
But in this instance -
thats his voice in my head.I need to listen to my own voice regarding him and ..this situation.
When he says, i hope your
*really ok*...it further verifies the fact that the other day when he asked how i was, he may have bene trying to pull on my heart strings.
He knew I'm sure that i wasnt being truthful- because he knows i never am with people. He knows some vulnerable things about me - such as my counter- dependancey- not that he understands it properly.
There is still a small part of me who still wants to go home. Home to him. To feel safe, but i rarely felt safe there, and i know i wouldnt now. Arguments and flashbacks always came to an end before they would come back round again, and he wasnt always there and his apologies were fake. But this time, there will be no *going home*.
I don't want to go home to
Quote*to him, to ALL of him*.
Just the part of him that might listen to everything bad thats been happening, and who *seems* to care- though
only sometimes But i think that as it didnt come.. like it never came with my parents- i just gave up. not that i would have taken him seriously anyway if he had seemed to care.
I gave up wanting that, and that want got disassociated away.
I don't know if its the dissociation or my own trauma reactions..but despite these wants....i have kept strong and not needed him. I have literally given up...and I'm too tired to give away any of my energy on him, because i need it to deal with my own *.
I made my own X up, the X i would tell only bits too, and smoke as a crutch. I now talk things out to photoboth on my laptop- its lonely but it was lonely with him , and talking to myself has been more beneficial at it allows the honesty i could never give him, and sometimes feelings to come out.
Sometimes i wonder how i will live - (and yes, its all about my own needs- not him...)..if i cant go home to him and be able to speak the truth of things that have happened to me since we split...as that feels like the only way ill ever be able to get any relief and cry and release all that is inside me that i cannot feel. It feels like the only way i will be able to feel and let go a little the feelings that have stagnated and turned into numbness.
Im scared that if i don't accept the phone and he has it anyway, that ill have to have a conversation with him about it...and that he might spread rumours about how ungrateful i am etc.
and what if he gets his new girlfriend involved and she says to me that he was only trying to help blah blah blah...
(she said the other day i can have her iPhone 6 when she's done with it)
Dutch, i was wondering if you'd mind explaining this?
Quotelet him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you.
He won't be able to control his need for letting her know how much leeway her leash gives her.
[/b]But that is their mutual problem, not yours.
I don't know if this was too much. I think that there is just a lot inside that i need to get out. Maybe its all grief but I'm so blocked i cant grieve and apart from T who doesnt know this yet, i have know one to hear this ..but i think you will understand.
Thank you Dutch. :hug:
Thank you radical. Same to you too. :hug:
Quote from: Sienna on September 23, 2016, 05:28:00 PM
Dutch, i was wondering if you'd mind explaining this?
Quotelet him give the iPhone to NewConquest, which he probably will do while letting her know it was actually meant for you.
He won't be able to control his need for letting her know how much leeway her leash gives her.But that is their mutual problem, not yours.
I had to learn this too. Here's an article about what I hint at:
http://esteemology.com/the-three-phases-of-a-narcissistic-relationship-cycle-over-evaluation-devaluation-discard/
There are many more about the phases of a narc-relationship, and/or what happens after a break-up. F.e.: When Narcissists Move Onto New Supply, The Illusion Isn't Real (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIZrwy56lY)
Mind you, if he is a narc (and it sure does sound like it to me), his new conquest (your former friend) will get the same treatment as you.
This is not about you, or her, but all about him.
QuoteIm scared that if i don't accept the phone and he has it anyway, that ill have to have a conversation with him about it...and that he might spread rumours about how ungrateful i am etc.
and what if he gets his new girlfriend involved and she says to me that he was only trying to help blah blah blah...
(she said the other day i can have her iPhone 6 when she's done with it)
He will. If he is a narc, he will have already started doing this. It's hard to accept. I find it hard to accept with the narcs in my life. But I've come to know it's all true, and it will never stop. NC is the only way. And whoever will buy his manipulative gossip... Try to shrug it off, they are 'being had' by a 'smooth operator'.
Even though it's hard to blame them, ignore them. They'll either come around some day, or they don't. There's nothing you can do either way.
Don't take her (this former friend's/his new conquest/supply) iPhone either, I'd say.
Thank you Ducth for the article.
And you are right, the is nothing you can do if he decides to spread, and the gossipers, / believers...cant change them, not my right to. I think it just makes me nervous.
I told her i didnt want her phone. Thanks for the advice.
Hum. another instance where he didnt follow through with what i said id prefer after asking me as he has/will get the phone.
Stupid phone.
Just wanted to say thank you for the article and vid. that woman good.
So many realisations - which i wanted to put down here, but internet faliour- they got lost...
V helpful- thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I know i splurged a lot of * all over my second to last post...dont know if anyone cares..i have so much in my head and its so tempting to get it down and out of myself, but those thought are creeping in again to...not do that. They may be based in reality though.
i am ashamed...and that i tend to blab a lot. whats the point of this?
i guess I'm saying that ill try to stop. but only if the reality that my head is telling me is true...
X spoke to me at volunteer place. Just happened. Not a situation i could avoid or get out of easily.
He asked if i got the email.
Said yes...not sure what to say
Cant even remember what he said.
I said that i told him the other day, that thanks, but that i wanted to pay for it myself.
He said *no you didnt!* - *you didnt say that!*
and i saw that other side to him come out- the scarier more annoying side that i lived with.
He seemed really annoyed and aggravated.
I ended up saying under my breath, that i cant do this.
I cant do this today, not today...
and he went all soft and said, ok then, ok, its ok, well do it another time...
Im so embarrassed about my reactions lately, I made an escape down the corridor carrying both the half made cups of tea i was making, and the milk container, and another flood of tears erupted from me.
I went to receptionists office which was where i was going with the tea, shaking and crying- huge adrenalin rush which did not feel good - I'm such a mess.
people said on here to not go to volunteer place anymore ,but its all i have left and it keeps me sane- and i cant stay at the refuge all day or ill go insane.
it was fine after he tried aggravating me as he stopped it- until now. Ill leave if i have to.
The lady was like, oh whats up and tried offering me a hug.
I turned away automatically and rejected her hug- afterwards i felt so upset about my doing that. If others hug me when I'm upset, i freeze and feelings vanish and i feel so stupid as i suddenly feel like nothing happened and i find hugs hard to accept when I'm upset.
All i could mutter was that i cant do it, i cant do this head screwy thing again- never again.
She was so lovely and said that it must be hard seeing him about.
Brief recap to her as i felt so stupid..and she said that yes, i did say no thank you to him.
I definitely don't think sometimes, that i am in a good emotional place to hold down a job. So thankfully, this isn't one.
I feel like I'm falling apart. One of my worst fears is that others would find out. But i don't know what to do about these sudden intrusions of tears and anxiety.
I wonder if narc X...knows that i didnt say *yes* of accepting the phone?
I actually said to him, *thanks, but I dont trust that you'll pay it*
if it hurt him ... did he just block my words out?
Its so scary when you know what is going on- you know what you said, and you know your being told otherwise. Don't want to go back to him if the choice became available. no no noooooo.
Quote from: Sienna on September 27, 2016, 02:25:41 PM
I wonder if narc X...knows that i didnt say *yes* of accepting the phone?
I actually said to him, *thanks, but I dont trust that you'll pay it*
As far as I understand Narc's/Cluster B's: Yes, he did know.
Quoteif it hurt him ... did he just block my words out?
As far as I understand Narc's/Cluster B's: Yes, but only to his convenience. He knows. And it's not even that 'deep down inside'. It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.
QuoteIts so scary when you know what is going on- you know what you said, and you know your being told otherwise. Don't want to go back to him if the choice became available. no no noooooo.
Very, vey scary. I so relate. And everybody thinks you're the crazy one.
you are not.The story you are telling
is crazy. But it's his craziness, not yours.
Good grief, I have to tell myself that every day.
Belief in your own memories, Sienna. You know. Nobody else but you knows what you have witnessed.
I believe you too.
The receptionist lady does too. She doesn't understand, but she believes you.
:hug:
Thanks Dutch, ...
I know X struggles with dissasociation- I'm pretty sure its disassociation. Definitely emotional numbness...and forgetfulness...and not remembering the past. At least thats what the used to say-he cant remember the past like i cant...and i feel terrible that it used to trigger me- his forgetfulness, so i turned into my mother as i would EF and would get so annoyed with him. Until i realised it was hurting him so i would smoke instead if a trigger happened.
hmm. if it was not what he wanted to hear, he may have forgotten it- blocked out what id said.
But- he was annoyed i could tell...so i think he did know i had him on the truth there.
i think he wanted a fight...Oh my god- and me being like...not today...and not sounding ok when i said it...i gave him my energy ..which is why he let me go...
ugh.
Sorry, i have another question...hope its okayyyy...reply thought at your leisure...
QuoteAnd it's not even that 'deep down inside'.
It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.
You mean, he blocked out the fact i said no thanks...
but - he
can access that
if he thinks hard enough...and the answer- but he wont want to / wont do it- because he's afraid of being wrong?
So he does *think* i said something different?
He is trying to fool me- but is he trying to convince himself that i said yes?
Trigger Warning ******
QuoteAnd everybody thinks you're the crazy one.
I know- you pointing that out- just put it into perceptive...its absolutely crazy...how could this happen? What is wrong with other people? X (not his fault he's a narc)..but he does look stupid to me...desperate. And these other people are believing him just like i did...they are believing something that is not real...they are believing *his* illusion that he wants everyone to bleeive- he is doing it because i presume, he is trying to control my mind so that i do what he wants.
* scary.
This was why living with him after he broke it off was so scary..only you can *properly* see *it, this!* when you havent been *in it* for long time.
QuoteThe story you are telling is crazy. But it's his craziness, not yours.
Good grief, I have to tell myself that every day.
Thanks Dutch. Its so hard when you have been around this...brainwashed for such a long time.
QuoteBelief in your own memories, Sienna. You know. Nobody else but you knows what you have witnessed.
I believe you too.
Dutch, its so incredibly validating and comforting to be believed. Especially as i know that you understand this. Thank you.
A lot of the EFs lately have been around not being validated or believed. This means so much.
God...i never thought i would receive so much support and understanding , and encouragement, about this situation...i never thought i would feel less alone...
not even I of course, knew that something wrong was going on, and when it felt bad, i didnt trust it. So i couldn't reach out with the *truth*.
Never did i ever imagine that i would be being told that my perceptions were not wrong, and that i should trust my memories as i was told that it was me, and i believed that.
How things can turn around.
Im sure you understand.
Thank you!
:hug: :hug:
Quote from: Sienna on September 27, 2016, 05:51:34 PM
Sorry, i have another question...hope its okayyyy...reply thought at your leisure...
QuoteAnd it's not even that 'deep down inside'.
It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.
You mean, he blocked out the fact i said no thanks...
but - he can access that if he thinks hard enough...and the answer- but he wont want to / wont do it- because he's afraid of being wrong?
So he does *think* i said something different?
He is trying to fool me- but is he trying to convince himself that i said yes?
I find it very hard to understand all this myself. But somehow the key to this all is we
can't understand it, since we are not narc's/cluster B's. Or Asperger's as in the case with my dad. It requires a different mind-set. No empathy will ever get you (or I) there.
Long post about my own experiences. I'll give you the "TLDR summary" up front.No, he is blocking YOU out from the fact you said "no thanks". He knows. And no way he is going to block that out. He wants YOU to block it out.
He doesn't have to think AT ALL. He KNOWS. He's not afraid of being wrong, he knows he is. He's afraid YOU knowing he's wrong. If you would tell him he's wrong, most probably he won't even be surprised. He'll throw a hissy-fit more likely.
He doesn't *think* you said something different. He wants YOU to think you said something different.
He wants to convince YOU that you said yes.
I assume this is (among other things) about him wanting you to get HIS phone. And that's all it is. He wants to have a piece of him ON YOU.
This time it is "all about you". About you being his, that is.
Here's the long post about my own experiences. Or rather, a step in coming out of the FOG. A lengthy processI can only reply to your question with an example of my experience with my narc/cluster B (histrionic PD) mom. (quite possibly you're already quite familiar with what I'm going to say, but hey, I need to repeat all this to myself more or less daily anyway. :aaauuugh: why not do it here again.)
DramaMama had an upcoming birthday-jubilee. :cheer: Attention magnet! :cheer: So she plans a big celebration in the summer prior to said
Jubileeeeee. Which falls through as bro is going on a far east trip with his FOC that summer. So it gets rescheduled to next year. AFTER the actual Jubilee. I get a date. I bloody well make sure I mark it down. Not just in my agenda, but I dare say in every braincell I have. And every other cell I have to spare too.
When I actually go over to her to celebrate the birthday (on the day itself, in between Jubilee parties so to say) she mentions a different date for the Jubilee-Festivities as I had in my mind. I say: "Huh? wasn't that at date X?" "No way, uHPD mom says, "its never been that date, it's always been date Y!" "Oh dear, I screwed up" I think. Oh well, no biggie, it's eight months to go. "Sorry mom, no problem, I'll be there, for sure. Sorry again for being not being even remotely concerned with the effects of my uncaring, inattentive and insensitive behavior."
While actually thinking: "No way I got this wrong. Too much is at stake here."
But hey, whatcha gonna do? Call her out? Its a no-win situation. So I budge. Fawn.
Next day I think: "I still only got all this in my brain, not on paper. I might have it all wrong AGAIN. (there you have it: questioning ones own judgement, based and backed up by memories). So I e-mail her: "Do I remember right now, it's date Y, right? I want to make sure I write the correct date in my diary now. Can you confirm?"
"Yes I can confirm, and by the way, you were right, it once was date X, I just forgot to tell you, and I also know how that came about, it's because you hurt my feelings three months ago." (well, actually it wasn't revealed to me that fast, this is the short summary of an our long e-mail go-and-forth)
So that's how close to the surface these "oh I forgot" tactics are for the cluster B/Narc/Histrionic. It's right under the surface, and I bet they know all the time. They just keep it hidden deliberately, since no-one can call them out on it. It's what's called "plausible deniability" in psychological terms. And the cluster B's thrive on it, and it's what drives us crazy. And the cluster B's know this. But they love that. It's what gets them their way.
We go :stars: and they go :whistling: . And when you catch them in their lies, they go :dramaqueen: and throw a pity party. Then their feelings are hurt AGAIN. Which to the cluster B only proofs that their original hurt, which 'inspired' the lying, cheating and forgetting from the beginning, was the right thing to do.
And thus the circle is back to where it began. No.Accountability.Ever. It simply never happened.
And you are the 'fool' to think it did.
With a bit of luck your Narc will do the same as my Histrionic did: getting caught in their own lies by telling a bigger one. Admitting one part and hoping they can get away by 'one-upmanshipping' that one with a trump.
The trick to entangle the mess is to say: "Ha! you just admitted to a lie! The rest you are telling me now must be a lie too!"
In my case, the perceived 'hurt' from three moths before was a boundary-bust-effort by her I didn't fall for. Of course she was hurt! So she 'upped the ante'. By trying to make me feel I had actually hurt her feelings by 'forgetting' her Jubilee-date. Which was impossible for me to remember, since she never told me!
Clever, isn't it?
No, it isn't. It's sly. A different ballgame altogether.
All this was not about me being at her Jubilee, but about my life revolving around her Jubilee. And she made sure I would keep spinning 'revolving' around it. Never to actually know what, how and when. Keeping me in constant demand.
In the very end, this story had an interesting twist.
All things considered, I personally had decided to give her a big present on her actual birthday. A 200 euro present. The day after (the day of the e-mail exchange) I had told her at some point: I'll be there, but please send me the program, and then I'll decide what parts I'll attend to. A few months later she cancelled the whole event. LOL.
Thank you Dutch for sharing your experiences, and it wasnt too long at all (if thats what TLDR means). Its ok for you to repeat yourself.
Sometimes that is what is needed, and if this thread can help you too- then thats great IMO!
(sorry my post is so looooonnnnngggggg....brought some stuff to mind)
Trigger Allert too **
QuoteNo, he is blocking YOU out from the fact you said "no thanks".
He knows.
And no way he is going to block that out.
He wants YOU to block it out.
Scary, scary stuff. Perhaps I'm doing that thing again...where i think something - or, intuition is saying *he is aggravated, he knows the truth- he is just denying it*-
then i go and question it like i always have because i cant trust myself..and then i wonder if he is genuinely having a memory problem....man i have a lot of healing to do. :(
Are you sure he KNOWS he is wrong? i have heard that they believe the lie they tell themselves.
it makes sense though what you are saying...if he believed he was right..why would he REALLY
need to convince me of it?...there must be some self doubt in there somewhere- well- of course there is!- he's a narc...but I'm wondering if he knows there is...
QuoteIf you would tell him he's wrong, most probably he won't even be surprised. He'll throw a hissy-fit more likely.
God. i really don't remember much of the stuff that happened in the relationship. Basically, i know that he got mad when i said that he was wrong. He said that i tell him he is wrong and wont budge. That i think I'm right and that there is never any room for *possibility* on my behalf, for the fact that
I could be wrong.And i know that i was like that.
I did have huge issues like my mother, with being wrong- with admitting i was wrong.
But i don't know what out of all of it is my stuff- and what is his- and its all mis mashed together in my head- and it always was.
But I think that he might have told me that with out a doubt *you are wrong*, so i didnt have a problem saying it to him-
unless we both just did that to each other from the get go.
You assumed right. It is about the phone.
I couldnt understand why...apart from that he would be able to try to hoover me by needing to talk to me about *the phone* in the future.
QuoteHe wants to have a piece of him ON YOU.
Ugh!
QuoteThis time it is "all about you". About you being his, that is.
It is? I thought it was all about him meeting his own needs by using me?
Dutch, i have to reply to some of what you wrote about your mum..if thats ok...(let me know if you are uncomfortable with me just naming her mum. Could call her DM- DramaMamma.
QuoteI get a date. I bloody well make sure I mark it down. Not just in my agenda, but I dare say in every braincell I have. And every other cell I have to spare too.
Hahaha! Though, not so funny.
QuoteWhile actually thinking: "No way I got this wrong. Too much is at stake here."
But hey, whatcha gonna do? Call her out? Its a no-win situation. So I budge. Fawn.
Really really hard, tough situation to be in. :pissed: :fallingbricks:
QuoteNext day I think: "I still only got all this in my brain, not on paper. I might have it all wrong AGAIN.
Man, how many times i thought this over and over.
Started recording arguments with X. didnt help. he didnt want to watch them even though he said it would be a good idea.
Another question of mine answered- if they saw video tape of the situation in which what you are saying happened did happen, what would they do!
Quote"Yes I can confirm, and by the way, you were right, it once was date X, I just forgot to tell you, and I also know how that came about, it's because you hurt my feelings three months ago." (well, actually it wasn't revealed to me that fast, this is the short summary of an our long e-mail go-and-forth)
This is just so abusive Dutch. It makes me feel so sad that this is happening to you. I just want you to be safe and as happy / content as you can be.
QuoteIn my case, the perceived 'hurt' from three moths before was a boundary-bust-effort by her I didn't fall for.
Oh dear. Yes, have experience of similar too. They blame you for getting upset / angry / putting up boundaries due to THEIR behaviour.
This is absolutely mental Dutch. No wonder our minds get screwed over, growing up like this.
She cant *admit* she is wrong. It sounds definitely more about her feelings than yours, which is definitely not how it should be. Im sorry your DM is like this. Not ok, and you deserve better.
If these people (PD people), just forgot they told you something, then thought you forgot, and were upset that you forgot....that sounds more like a memory problem to me...so then, it must be on purpose...as know one with trauma is THAT forgetful all the time are they?
I understand about keeping themselves wrapped around you and your life. Wonder if X knows I'm fearful of him...maybe he likes putting me under uncertainty about when he will *appear*
My X used to say, oh sorry, i forgot, in response to breaking promises such as, ill be home at 11pm, or ill ring you to let you know...or..sure ill do my share of the cleaning...and a lot of times sounded like he wasnt bothered but would ah its so complex-
i think i get why he did that-
because maybe he was in trouble with is parents for forgetting stuff...and he met me- a partner who got :pissed: when he forgot stuff...
and i got with him, who got mad when i accidentally broke stuff- just like my mother and he got annoyed at the fact that i didnt seem at all bothered. I just learned to keep my feelings in about stuff like that as i knew something bad was coming...and i wanted mother and then X to think i couldnt care less- oh well, clumsy me, this is just what i do- i break stuff.
sorry..im loosing where I'm at...
so yes, if i knew what i was doing, then maybe he did too.
and he didnt show any caring about my hurt sometimes and we had arguments about the broken promises thing.
Yes, they love it, and they need aparently- our energy. For us to be one down they feel better.
Feel like such a fraud, - have to be honest. when ive done this too with my x. like my mother, i felt powerful, but i realise i was repeating what she did to me, and that i felt i would die inside if i didnt outlet my anger. i just realised in therapy that he was the target and that i had to stop. So i stopped.
QuoteWith a bit of luck your Narc will do the same as my Histrionic did: getting caught in their own lies by telling a bigger one. Admitting one part and hoping they can get away by 'one-upmanshipping' that one with a trump.
Ah this is so sad. But if it happens, i hope he can see it for what it is..though I'm not sure he will ever change.
He said to me years ago that he has lied so much that he doesnt know what the truth is anymore. He confused himself he said. And he HATES people who lie! Wonder why! People are mirrors that you look into and you see yourself.
But this might have been another lie to win me over of his..i don't know.
QuoteThe trick to entangle the mess is to say: "Ha! you just admitted to a lie! The rest you are telling me now must be a lie too!"
I did this and it didnt go down well. Same as when i would tell him he was wrong or even omg LETS AGREE TO DISAGREE- WE BOTH REMEMBER THE EVENT DIFFERENTLY-
he was NOT ok with that.
Your mother cancelling the event is very interesting. Im guessing its cos she knows (in narc term speak), that you will not be *good supply* during her birthday time.
Its so great that you stood your ground...kept to your own boundaries of what you wanted.
After all of this awful behaviour towards you, i don't blame you for not wanting to go.
Thank you Dutch. Its hard cos writing this i realise i have forgotten a lot i guess of the relationship, and i cant match this stuff to stuff my UnNmother did. i just cant remember...or i still can't see it.
I appreciate you sharing a lot. It seems to parallel...i will have to re-read and get my head around it. :hug:
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I just have to say, that you saying about the date with your DM, -
when i was a child- i would arrange a time to meet friends, and mum would give me a lift.
I would often get the time wrong, turn up, and friends weren't there.
T thinks i could have been stressed so i forgot and told mum wrong when i came off the phone.
Maybe i did.
But i started writing it on my white board in my bedroom, as i was in so much trouble with mum for this...(a suggestion of dads), and then i told her the time.
I would panic and look at it over and over for fear id still gotten it wrong. The time was still wrong.
I wonder if she rubbed it out off the whiteboard and changed it to something else to make me think i had written it.
Its like that thing i hard from someone???...about salt- they kept buying salt. Narc H hid it. They believed they mustn't have bought salt..over and over even though they kept repeatedly buying it.
He left and she found the salt all in rows on top of the kitchen cupboard.
:hug:
X wants to give me the phone and he wants to pay for the new contract.
So-why did he cancel my existing contract- yes it was coming to an end- but why not pay that if he so wants to pay for something?
It was more expensive though- maybe thats why-
and i KNOW its not his job to pay for it-as its my contract to pay.
Wonder if he cancelled my original contract -when it came to an end-
then bought the new phone and contract deal-
knowing that wouldnt take up his offer, and that i would most likely not be able to afford to pay my own contract myself. Thus i have no internet.
Im in starbucks at the moment.
Never told him he was still paying it as i thought that after all he has done- ill let him pay it.
I rely on the internet so much and now its gone. its all i have of any contact with other people now days- and this forum...and its my only entertainment and source of info.
Havent had any money to get myself a new contract. Im totally skint and freaking out.
Think if should just take the phone.
Due to huge money issues at the moment, that being, i have *none*, if he pays it, i will at least have a phone. I need a phone to call up these companies.
I need the phone for internet.
This forum is helpful beyond belief. I feel so isolated with out it in the evenings, and the internet in general.
But he might take it off me. He might have already given it to his X. Doesnt he know my location right now anyway..as he payed my contract?? its an apple phone so he can find out where i am cant he?
Receptionist wanted to know why i wanted to use the phone earlier today- so told her and she thinks i cant be with out a phone- so to just accept X's offer.
I told her i cant and that she doesnt understand...but maybe i just should...