Out of the Storm

Greetings community  :grouphug:

This is sort of an introductory post and I feel blessed to have found a community of people who's experience and struggles resonate so strongly with my own.  Thank you, @kizzie, for creating this space for us.

I believe that my core injury occurred during my first year of life and I'm curious to find others for whom this is also true.  I find this created a "unique" challenge for me in that I felt horrible from my earliest memories and experienced all the effects of c-ptsd as we all know them, but it was difficult to identify a source that could account for the severity of my challenges in a way that I could articulate to myself others.  It wasn't until I started becoming aware of the profound impacts of trauma and stress during the first two+ years of life, and started processing what was going on for me during that time, that I began my (still continuing) road of recovery. (And please know that in no way am I trying to make other experiences than mine somehow less traumatizing -- there are so many ways that we have been harmed, and our experiences so unique and nuanced -- that I would never minimize anyone's experience. If you are suffering, that is all that I need to know).

In my case, my family was in a violent disintegration when I was in the womb (my father was abusing my mother). My mother left my father when I was 6 months old, taking myself and three older brothers to live near her own mother. My mother was (understandably) depressed, unable to cope with an infant and 3 older children, and ended up being admitted to a hospital for depression for a few months during my second year (we apparently lived in a children's home during that period). 

All this is to say that during my first year of life I experienced the stress of witnessing anger and abuse in the household and most definitely did not receive any of the mirroring and secure attachment that an infant needs.  I'm certain that all the wiring for stress management, self-worth, and a positive sense of the world did NOT get laid down for me.  This was followed by continued trauma and shaming through custody battles and family dysfunction throughout my childhood.

Some of the resulting symptoms I've experienced are ones that most of us know well: painful chronic depression, a relentless inner critic, social anxiety and dysfunction, emotional flashbacks (of the "freeze" variety), dissociation during times of intimacy or stress, cognitive deficits (largely due to the cognitive load of managing all the other symptoms).  Most of my life has been a journey of re-parenting and building that wiring on my own and with the help of a few trusted therapists and loving friends.

One of the consequences of my trauma being so early in life was that my parents, siblings, others often told me that since I wasn't aware of what was happening back then, and that my parents were already divorced by the time I was "aware", that I was the least affected by the family dysfunction.  The "you don't have a reason to be so troubled" message, which of course was immensely invalidating and shaming, on top of the original injury.  (Adding insult to injury, as I like to call it).

I would be interested in hearing from others who's stories have a similar arc.  Did you also feel "wrong" from your earliest memories? What are some of the ways it has manifested for you? When and how did you first recognize that the timing of your trauma was a key factor, and start forgiving yourself?

And thanks. I'm glad to have found this group to share experiences and successes with.

Hey Andrew, Andrew here, nice to meet you.

Trigger warning - sexual abuse

I am only getting into my next phase of life. This past January my first suppressed memory exploded into my head. And that was male on male ASA by a predator, when I was 20 and 21, a few weeks before and a few weeks after my 21st birthday. Anyway, long story short, the earliest abuse memory I was late in my 3rd year....a few weeks shy, or maybe more, of my 3rd birthday...was CSA/R by grown man my father's age, or a little older.

And I'll leave that here...

I'm horrified and truly saddened to hear of your experience. I wish you healing.

Hi, andrewc, welcome to OOTS  :wave:

***TRIGGERS throughout the following***

You asked if others have memories of very, very early core trauma? Sadly, I have a major one that, given that I've carried it my whole life and floats into mind daily, will probably never cease to haunt me. Yes, of course I'm seeking to release its grip any way I can, but it's been a long, hard slog to find any daylight from this.

I'm not up for much detail at the moment (or ever, at risk of being violently sick), but the basics are stuff that happened in a crib; my memory is too clear on that and has never deviated or been somehow confused with anything else. While some memories can be vague, that one has always been crystal clear. So there's my first inkling.

In the years that followed infancy, even way beyond the crib molestations, I recall the m doing unsavory acts (and yes, they did seem 'wrong' even before my mind had a clear notion of right/wrong). Many times these happened in or en route to bathrooms. As I grew older, she'd just burst in (no inner door lock). This often caused constipation as I feared going to that grim place. Fine with her--she loved using enemas or suppositories; all for my good, of course.

This continued until age 9 when in retrospect it seems the f found or figured some of this out, disapproved, threatened to leave, and the bathroom visits ceased. I actually don't care why anymore (I was seeing a child psych at the time at the f's behest)--all I know is that the abuse just migrated to other forms--not as directly physical but fully as devastating. But the worst part was--somehow the monstrous actions on her part were blamed on me!!! 

:stars: My fault? Talk about adding insult to injury...blame the victim.

Regarding the crib memory, for years I'd hoped that had been and was still somehow an illusion, an aberration of my mind. Nonetheless the memory remained certain and clear. I had no doubts, but still in some desperate hope for a 'false memory' I allowed a very reputable tribal shaman, who knew nothing about me, to undertake a psychic retrieval process about 10 years ago. I was, and remain, highly skeptical of psychic methods. But in this case I was insatiably curious to confirm as best as I could my lifelong suspicions--it didn't involve money or other gratuity, I wanted another angle, the shaman seemed very trustworthy, and so I consented.

Basically, he entered a trance state knowing nothing of my past (we had only met about 5 minutes before he began). He didn't ask, and I didn't tell, any of my story--zilch about anything. So his 'journey' was undertaken in general terms, trusting his own inner process. When he reported back to me afterwards (I was there the whole time--several hours), he indicated that he'd noticed a sordid string of incidents with an adult woman (he didn't identify her as the m) all the way back to infancy and, at least by his determination, this was real. His detailed description of the surroundings matched my own too-vivid memory as well. Science can scoff at this, but I was sure after that point that my memory had substance. Of course I already knew the 9 hellish years that followed, no psychic/shaman needed; but those also were witnessed in the process.

In a way I felt relief that my memory wasn't off base, but it also was devastating in so many ways. I had no reason to doubt his veracity...he didn't set out to find harmful info, but reported honestly on what he'd found. Plus there were an abundance of other things he noted, all 100% accurate according to my memories.

So that's my experience. Not pretty. I'm ashamed to have had a role, even an innocent part, of the m's apparent glee in what she did. And I have to stop; this already took me longer than I thought it would.

I wish you well in your recovery process, andrewc.

Woodsgnome, Your experience sounds horrible and painful. I wish you well on your journey towards daylight.

I'd like to clarify a bit what my inquiry is here.  I'm particularly interested in hearing from those whose primary trauma was in-utero or during infancy about which they have no memories since it was too early.  And especially around neglect and abandonment, as that the thread this is posted in.

Who else has suffered from very beginning of life due to inability of the primary caregiver to provide any secure attachment when you were first born?  What has your journey been like?

i think i can speak to this.  i believe a lot of my core issues happened before i have memory of what went on.  my first clue was when my mother told me (much later in life) that when my sister was born, 21 mos. after me, she told my father 'not to be so hard' on their second daughter.

i never got details, so i can only imagine.  what i've lately discovered is that i suffer from alexithymia, which is the inability to verbalize, recognize and understand what i'm feeling, and have for most of my life.  much of my life, i felt 'floaty', like i simply floated thru life, kind of like a leaf on the wind.  i had no direction, no sense of self, no opinions, and no idea how i or anyone else was feeling, unless they told me.

i believe that my dad expected me to be perfect, so denied any feelings that weren't happy/smiling ones.  throughout my life, until maybe the past few years, i got angry possibly 5 times (i'm 70 now).  instead, i was tolerant, patient, and understanding, no matter what was happening. 

i would take cues from other people as to what feelings might be appropriate in a situation, because i had mostly none at any given moment.  touch is very important to me, as it gives me a sense of being.   from my research on this, i've learned that emotional neglect/denial at a very young age doesn't allow the proper connections between the emotional and verbal parts of the brain to be formed.  through my recovery, i've worked on re-wiring, but it's pretty difficult. 

i'm learning, also, that being out of touch with my feelings is probably the root of my substance abuse, cig. smoking, and eating problems.  i would feel a disturbance in my body, but couldn't pinpoint what it was, and would use something to try to ease the distress i felt. 

so, yes, i'm battling all my life to be me, without having had a chance of a clue.  i'm less floaty now, more self-aware, but i still struggle much of the time with recognizing what emotion/feeling i might be experiencing at any given moment.  most of the time i still couldn't tell you.

sending you a big hug, andrew.  here's hoping, for all of us, that we find our way.

Thanks sanmagic7. And I notice my other post about grief resonated for you as well. I don’t think this is coincidental.

Yes, my experience is similar. A poorly  formed sense of self, dissociation from emotions. I recognize all this. And it is hard to scaffold in those connections after the fact. It is  a work in progress.

Hi andrew,

Welcome :)

I can relate for sure. I was in a lot of danger many times in the womb, also after being born. Then I stayed in an incubator for many months, back when there was no human touch for babies in them, after which my mother left my abusive father but got back together with him when I was still a baby. So a lot happened long before I could speak.

I have no idea what safety is, I can't dig into my memory and find a time when I felt it. My mother used to say I was a very strung up baby, that my body never relaxed. She didn't realize it was because I was already traumatized.

I knew it was all wrong but at the same time I thought it was all normal, it was the only reality I knew. That in itself has always been crazy making. Some of the things that happened to me seemed impossible, they just couldn't happen. I didn't even have a name for them. Not being able to talk about them made me lose even the little sense of self I might have had if I could. My sense of self and my body were formed in trauma.

But the funny thing is that because my body, and my brain were formed and grew up like this, for me, this is reality. I functioned well for decades considering... but I was never fully present. It's far too easy for me to dissociate and be gone all the time. I can't quite call it my "life", never been able to call this a life because it hurts too much but I also feel too little emotion. I'm not alive. I sort of... vaguely... exist. It's incredibly isolating.

And I'm with you, I have no doubt neglect at such a young age is extremely dangerous because it leaves you dead inside, you learn to neglect yourself in order to survive it.

Yes, people used to believe babies' brains weren't formed enough for memories, so things that happen to babies don't have lasting effects. But science has shown it to be totally untrue. Things that happen before we can speak are probably hardwired into us and become habits we're not even aware of.

The saddest thing? So much of my mother's childhood was recreated in my own... she was severely neglected as a baby, her earliest memory is as a baby, standing in a crib crying bitterly for a whole day, looking out the window searching frantically for someone to save her till she collapses, all alone. She had good intentions and a big heart but she was neglecting because she was neglected long before she could speak.

woodsgnome + Andyman,
I'm speechless. I'm so, so so sorry. Speaking of unthinkables... oh the things that we had to go through, all of us, and we're still here.

Quote from: ah on October 28, 2017, 06:31:14 PM
I have no idea what safety is, I can't dig into my memory and find a time when I felt it. .... My sense of self and my body were formed in trauma. ...  I can't quite call it my "life", never been able to call this a life because it hurts too much but I also feel too little emotion. I'm not alive. I sort of... vaguely... exist. It's incredibly isolating.

This is all very familiar, Ah. Thanks for sharing your story.

Are there times that you have sensed your core self, so that you have a reference to point to? The periods of the "vacant soul" can be very bleak... I know this well.

When it hurts too much, I have been working with visualizing my infant self, holding him, and loving him unconditionally as if he were my very own son. Sometimes I can even break through the shame and self-loathing and actually FEEL loved -- actually feel worthy of it. I'm hopeful that with sustained practice I can begin to redeem my infant self.

interesting, andrew, that there might be a connection between this constant crying/grieving and emotional neglect.  my t mentioned that my crying may be leftover tears that went un-nurtured when i was a baby.  i like your visualization, too.  it seems very intense to me.

what i did with my baby me was relegate her to an angel to take care of.  i found a picture of an angel holding a baby and printed it out for myself.   that's as close as i got to nurturing my baby me.  some time in the future i may do what you've written about.  it brings up a lot of anxiety within just thinking about it.

thanks for writing this.  definitely something to look at for me.    big hug.

I understand. I believe I circled around this concept warily for years before I could really embrace it and practice it. Kind wishes to you.

I honestly don't know what's what, but I have the sense of something before that first fully known experience. I know I had a root canal when I was younger...one of my baby teeth came in dead. But I just have the sense of something happening when I was younger.

 :wave:Gwyon

I believe my issues stem from that early, pre-verbal stage too.

My mother had some kind of breakdown after the birth of my sister (1st child), and was in hospital so my sister was cared for by grandparents for the 1st year or so. My mother was on tranquillisers, and told not to have any more children. Then she had me, 7 years later, because her friend was having a baby.

From my own experience as a mother I know people assume you know what you are doing 2nd time around, especially if you keep quiet about past difficulties. My mother stopped her drugs whilst pregnant but started them again as soon as I was born, she didn't try to feed me. Having seen the way she mechanically tried to soothe my baby son when he was crying I don't think she was a natural mother.

I learnt about the infant stage of development and heard other mothers say how instinctive it was with their baby. Really? I hadn't got a clue, couldn't tell if my boy was hungry, tired or what. (Second time around, yes, I had much more idea and things were naturally easier because of that.) so, I believe that, as my mother didn't look after her first infant she was as clueless as I was when I came along, and probably had less help.I grew up with the saying that my sister was such a wonderful baby my dad wanted 6 more just like her, when I came along I was so terrible he wanted to chuck me out of the window. Like @Ah my mother made comments about me as a baby, being rigid, impossible to console. I did experience that with my son too and I hope that I have put my mistakes with him right, he certainly isn't scared of me, and does turn to me with worries.

I grew up feeling that she must have really wanted me to go against the advice but, when I came, I was a massive disappointment.

Growing up my mother still took tranquillisers until I was 16, and, when I was small, she still went to see some person that I referred to as 'a shrink', I have no idea how I knew that. But, she was still scary, to all of us, and unpredictable.

My counsellor says it is as if I am always waiting for negative criticism and, we were discussing 'safe places' this week, and she doubts if I ever had a person or place that I felt safe.

My triggers, as far as I know are around having to ask anyone for anything, people being angry, unreasonable, bullying, even if they are not angry at me. I was bullied at school from an early age and that made me highly vigilant throughout school. As a consequence I would rather do things by myself, secretly, I even find positive feedback hard to take. Sometimes I make mistakes and dread being 'found out' even if I have put them right. I get overwhelmed because I find it impossible to ask for help. I believe my attachment style is 'anxious avoidant'.

As for family, I was the scapegoat, always trying to make sense of the chaos. Everyone else just kept quiet, for an easy life. My sister cannot remember, or doesn't want to, she thinks I should just 'let go'.
But, how can you let go what you do not remember, what happened before you understood language?
G

Thanks Gromit.   :heythere:

This all sounds very familiar to me. I suspect I was a difficult  baby (I had breath-holding spells and was sensitive to any sensory stimulus) and if a mother is depressed it must be doubly hard to cope and stay engaged.

I'm fairly sure this is also me.  I do not remember any specific incidents, but I have put together that MOO was away for about a week for a medical procedure before I was of an age to have memories.  She said that after she got back I was clingy and inconsolable.  I suspect FOO was verbally abusive / negligent during that time.  I cannot remember a time when I was not anxious and afraid of him.

Quote from: Gwyon on October 28, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
I'm particularly interested in hearing from those whose primary trauma was in-utero or during infancy about which they have no memories since it was too early.  And especially around neglect and abandonment, as that the thread this is posted in.

Who else has suffered from very beginning of life due to inability of the primary caregiver to provide any secure attachment when you were first born?  What has your journey been like?

I can speak to this a bit. I have a lot of clear memories from the time one can remember, but I know there was earlier stuff too. I know for instance that B1, who is only 16 months older than me, used to be physically abused by M when I was an infant. He said so, F said so, M said so. So I presume it's true. Being the baby, I was spared (at that point). But nobody in FOO thought about the possibility of a baby being frightened. How does a baby (or small toddler) know she's not next??  Witnessing violence can be enough to cause PTSD. Once a child has PTSD in that kind of environment and without any help, CPTSD won't be long in coming.

Worse, the fact that B1 was abused was somehow reason to allow him to beat me up for years, which he did. The excuse for not protecting me you were spared when he was small was trotted out (along with the usual "you're difficult, stupid :blahblahblah:) So that reminds me of what was said to you Gwyon, about "we all suffered but you didn't, you were too young".

For various reasons, possibly intergenerational, M seemed to sort-of-reject me at birth. Not really. But sort of. People often say an older sib will be neglected when a new baby arrives on the scene. In my case it was more the other way. I don't think I was physically neglected, but M was just much more interested in B1 and his development. Apparently I could just be left to lie or sit and didn't need attention, in fact in the eyes of M I was a "boring" baby, "never moved, slept all the time". Not even noticeable in the womb.

A midwife told me that when pregnant women say the fetus hardly moves, isn't noticeable, it's because there's a bond lacking between mother and child. She had been able to introduce a connection between mother and child while baby still in utero on various occasions. And then the baby in each case became more active or at least more noticeable. While there is some conjecture here from me, i.e. I'm piecing some of this together,  I'm sure that if you interact more with your baby, she will with you too, but if you're totally involved with the older child, then, well, maybe not. But yeah, go ahead, blame the baby. Over the years some therapists have suggested that I made myself as 'unnoticeable' as possible from a very early age, possibly from infancy.

I don't know what my core trauma is though.  Plenty came later which all could have lead to problems with attachment.

My journey: I'm approaching 50, have had depression since at least the age of 7 if not earlier, and have been in some form of therapy or counselling or just "working on myself" for most of my adult life. I'm single and always have been. For a long time I thought my problems started at 6 1/2 - 7 years old, but through therapy I realised that I'd never been very happy or securely attached, it's just that things got really bad at 6 1/2 - 7 years old.

Thanks all. It's informative and validating to meet folks with similar stories & challenges.

Quote from: Gwyon on October 27, 2017, 06:23:44 PM
Did you also feel "wrong" from your earliest memories? What are some of the ways it has manifested for you? When and how did you first recognize that the timing of your trauma was a key factor, and start forgiving yourself?

I might be able to connect with this. I don't really have a defining moment or a "core trauma" that I know is the beginning. All the fractions of memories I have from childhood where I felt mistreated already passed "that moment". I can only infer that something wrong happened early because of the long existence of my symptoms. My earliest memory about pleasing others to avoid being punished went back to when I was three years old. I would agree to join those role play games where I was the slave and the other kids were masters (don't want to go into details there. It is more emotionally humiliating than anything physical.) And it was consensual, meaning I agreed to everything, even though I was and am utterly disgusted by myself. As soon as I started going to school, I felt if I stopped working or trying to please the teachers and other students, I would not survive, or worse, I would be tortured forever.

It might sound silly, but the moment I realized that something was actually wrong was when I found a video created by OOTS on youtube, which listed symptoms of C-PTSD, and I just matched myself to it one by one. "So these are not 'personalities', but actually symptoms." These were my thoughts, and then I tried to start digging and got some more details from my mother. She told me that when I was just born, FOO said he would never love me because I was a girl. He returned later to apologize to her but maybe the damage was already done. And when I was six months old, I was sick but couldn't swallow the bitter meds, so my FOO forced it down on me and I nearly choked to death. She also mentioned that sometimes when I returned from day-care/kindergarten, my arms and hands would have scratch marks presumably coming from other kids. So I guess those are the earliest "wrongness" that happened to me, and I have zero memory about them. Otherwise the illogical fear and everything else seemed to exist since "day one". I've read from other people's comments that symptoms can still be improved without knowing the source of trauma, but I am very confused about "how". 

I too, unfortunately, can relate to this thread.

This next part has a trigger warning, and while I will not go into details I just want to make sure everyone has a proper warning.

It started for me actually before I was conceived. :/ My mother already had three sons in her early 30s when she met my father. My father having his own past wanted to be married and settled before he had any children. My mother had different thoughts. She quit the birth control she was on and convinced my father that all was safe while he still thought she was on it. Needless to say I was conceived. (Which hearing this story made me feel like a pawn for her game from the very beginning.)

Once I was born, my mother was excited..until the new baby feeling wore off. From then on my brothers beat me (even in the soft spot on top of my head as a baby), dragged me by my limbs and picked me up my hair, etc. And my father tells me that my mother would always tell him that I was a beauty and would be great at getting men to do what I want them to do (which would play a role in her future plans).

And then at 18 months she kidnapped me in the middle of the night for 10 years. Moving every time my father would find me and make contact. And I lived in her world for those years. I won't get into details. Maybe sometime, I don't know.

This is the end of the trigger warning.

This has caused me a lot of problems, some I haven't even realized or been diagnosed with. I have ended up with PTSD, C-PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Dissociation, Panic Attacks, intermittent explosive disorder in adult among others. In the beginning of the healing process I had severe Stockholm Syndrome.

While I am in the middle of all of it...still, I would not wish this for anyone. And it saddens me greatly that so many can relate here. In case you haven't heard this in your life, I'm sorry for what you went through.

Melodie

I was spearated from my mother at 18 months, I did a hallucinagenic medicine that showed me waking up in the morning and she was gone.
I was stuck standing in the corner of my crib looking at the open door of my bed room. It sucks, never having a proper opportunity to separated an form my inner strength separate from her. But I beleive I can do it now. Im 33.

hi Gwyon, yes indeed - I have so many similarities to your story.... my dad was highly unpredictable and "mentally ill" booted my mother in the stomach late in her pregnancy with me (I get triggered by jolts and frights - which happens all the time in normal life, really sucks!), and my mum put up with lots and went into a serious depression for a while after I was born - she got a bit better and left him - involving the police and restraining orders... yet my mother was still distant - emotionally unavailable, couldn't process her own stuff let alone bond with a baby who needed lots of nurturing, as babies rightfully do.  Adding to this a certain sense of doom in the form of pre verbal sexual abuse (the body knows etc) and I have been left with soooo many symptoms and triggers. Although it seems as though I am doing well... underneath I still am confused by emotions - for so long was on autopilot and am very scared (aka, cannot) reveal my true thoughts to others for fear of rejection and shame. Pretty sure this points right back to lack of healthy attachment and trying to survive by being a loving non-needy kid so I would have my mum. Ahhhh am floating away now, get the dissociation when I first read your post - and came back to it to respond. But - yes, me too.  And keen to hash out the long shadow this crap has cast. I am shocked and saddened by everyones stories here. Why do people do these things....? (no answer needed, there is none)
I was abused and hurt but couldn't do this to my own kids. oh thats the other thing - strangely my *empathy* went through the ROOF as a child, for others - especially children. Became protective and a defender - even for kids older than me. Still like that now, people getting picked on or bullied. Sensitive, hypervigilant - yet numb  and confused. 
Anyways - high fives, such an eloquent and insightful thread this is.

Ha, yes. I had empathy for other children, sometimes, anyway. Where my parents said I was getting too involved emotionally in others' lives and problems. 

blueberry - ahh interesting.  yah then I also had a jealous/mean streak too - surprising when it would show up but it was rooted in being rejected and feeling inferior.

I'm new and more than a little terrified. Yes. Yes, it was, well one of them. There's...a lot.
I know the egg donor didn't want children.
She had cats which she cleaned up after (toxoplasmosis), smoked cigs, drank, all through the pregnancy. I remember being in the womb...hearing muffled, angry voices...
She went back to work a few days after my birth, left me with my dad (and honestly I don't even know if he really is my dad...I'll leave it at that) whom she basically made quit his job and give up his drivers license...
They kept me high chair bound, in diapers, till I was five.
Neglect. I remember being in that awful high chair...begging to go to the bathroom because I was sick, vomiting everywhere, my dad laughing hysterically.
The great aunt egg donor cared for, had alzheimers...she was violent too. Egg donor said that the great aunt tried to drown me when I was two or three...why didn't she stop her great aunt.
I didn't learn to swim, due to paralysing fear...until I was 27. (I taught myself, thanks to studying the mammalian diving reflex...)
When I was 20 the egg donor told me she regretted not getting an abortion, when I was 10 she lost custody to another family member (ANOTHER source of great pain, another abuser....my family is full of personality disordered, cruel and psychotic women).

She never cared. The wound began in utero. She had cats, drank, smoked...because she didn't want me.

(Welcome on here GoodSeedOfTanit  :heythere: I'm glad you found us and that you've posted, even though you're frightened.

I'm sorry that your early life seems to have been very very neglectful and abusive. On here, we care about you!  Feel free to post more when you feel ready, but do go at your own pace.)

We really do care, and I'm so glad you are here. Are hugs okay?  :hug: If you are okay with one.

Many of us here can totally relate. Telling your story here is not at all like telling it "out there". We will believe you, we've been thru the wringer, too.

I just want to say how sad I feel to read all of the terrible accounts of childhood that everyone has been so brave to tell. So much violence and neglect to such vulnerable little children.

I think that my background is a bit different.

Firstly,  I was always told that I was a desperately wanted child, whereas so many others were not wanted at all. Nm had married very young, to the absolute love of her life (enabling F) ,  happy to escape a rather sad childhood with two older parents who weren't each others first choice of love.  She had two miscarriages and then had me.  Sounds as if it should have been blissful but the birth was difficult and she has admitted often that from day one of my life,  there was just nothing there,  no bond, no love, just emptiness.  She had admitted this quite freely, as has my F, but they can't see that this could possibly have had any effect on me at all.

GC was conceived six months after my birth,  and nm admits, very matter of factly, that she didn't want another baby as her first baby and motherhood in general was just such a disappointment.  However, she says that GC sister was just such a lovely baby that she made everything right. 

Probably sister was a better baby,  who knows, but maybe that was because nm felt so differently about her.  But whatever our differences, nm could say that the reason she did not love or even like me was because of my deficiency in my ability to love her.  GC sister loved her so the fault lay not with her mothering, but with me, a baby of only a year. Classic dysfunctional family all set up by the time I was 15 months old.

My life was then very, very regular physical abuse, whenever nm was in a bad mood,  which was most of the time. But, much, much worse was the emotional abuse.  It was all consuming. I can't even begin to describe it, there is just so much.

For me, the tragic thing is that all of this is fairly freely admitted by my parents.  GC sister has always refused any discussion of anything.   The issue is that they don't see that any of this could have impacted on my development at all.  When I raised the issues, when in my forties,  they just cut me and my children out of their lives for good.  They said they were perfect parents and I was just ungrateful and unworthy.   Five years on, we have been in absolute NC.

So, yes, core trauma started from birth and I realise now the extent of the damage done, which has ruined every aspect of my life.

My heart bleeds for all of us hurt and damaged little children.  Gentle hugs for all of us.

Oh Libby  :'( :'( that matter-of-factness is so awful. I can relate to both that and this "the baby - you - was to blame for lack of ability to love M" and M and F's inability to see how that could possibly have a damaging effect on you.  :hug: :hug:

deptofhearts, thx so much for sharing. A big yes to this:

QuoteAlthough it seems as though I am doing well... underneath I still am confused by emotions - for so long was on autopilot and am very scared (aka, cannot) reveal my true thoughts to others for fear of rejection and shame.   

Thank you too, Libby12

When the pain is deep down in your neural circuitry, how does one "rewire"?  Slowly, in any event...

I firmly believe core trauma can develop in early childhood life. I was born to a Heroin addict father and a toxic, neglectful, and unstable mother. Neither parent wanted me and they debated having me aborted (as I was told). When I was one month old I was hospitalized for an unknown reason and diagnosed with "Independent Baby Syndrome". This syndrome is indicative of an infant the becomes rigid and shakes when cuddled. This occurs because parental embracement and nurturing did not occur and when someone embraces the baby they reject it in this form due to the foreign feeling.
At the ripe age of two I was formally abandoned by both parents with reoccurring returns and re-abandonments. Aside from the abandonment, my parents were very physically, emotionally, mentally, and sexually abusive to one another and to me. I lived in a constant state of fear and isolation, never knowing where I would be living or with whom. In addition to the aforementioned scenarios, our home was full of drugs, weapons, frequent return guests (drugs), filth, caged snakes, lack of heat or air, and lack of food. Not to mention I was not allowed to express any emotions, especially crying, or things would become very violent and things would be destroyed in front of me.  All of this was my life before age five, when it worsened.
My core trauma occurred before age five and firmly lives within me. Unfortunately this isn't the entire core, there is a lot I left out. I am glad you all are here, but hate that you have experienced trauma.

That sounds horrendous, K92.  :'( I'm glad you found us and hope that being here helps you heal, as much as possible.  :hug:

K9 2, I'm glad you found this place. Hope hugs are okay for you.  :hug:

Quote from: Andyman73 on January 03, 2018, 09:13:16 PM
K9 2, I'm glad you found this place. Hope hugs are okay for you.  :hug:

I love hugs!!!!! Thank you!

:

Quote from: K9 2 on January 04, 2018, 01:23:09 AM

Quote from: Andyman73 on January 03, 2018, 09:13:16 PM
K9 2, I'm glad you found this place. Hope hugs are okay for you.  :hug:

I love hugs!!!!! Thank you!

:grouphug: :hug: :bighug: :hug: :grouphug:
Here's a few more for you!  ;D

Andly :phoot:

There was a couple years in my early teens when she was honest about some things.  And there things I heard others say to me in private, but I didn't know how to connect when they said them or what to think. 

"She never let us play with you or hold you," she said with a bewildered look on her face. "One time you were in the crib and she was taking a nap.  I snuck in to pick you up, but before I could hold you she came into the room and took you away and put you back in the crib."  grandm

"You were always happiest alone.  I would fashion a pallet (blanket) on the floor and set you there and you were very content all by yourself."  her

"Your brother was so difficult for me, but you were a very quiet child."  her

"Your m was always so 'business-like'.  When you were a baby, she never let anyone else handle you." (Very aged grandmother trying to describe my mother's lack of emotions.

"We saw your brother playing with the neighbor child and that kid was so terrible.  We didn't want your brother to be spoiled like that so your father decided another was necessary.  I didn't want another child after your brother being so difficult, but your father insisted.  I finally agreed provided he buy me a washer and a dryer." 

My brother couldn't take the best and formula wasn't produce at that time.  My mother finally found goat milk for him.  According to her this was a horrible experience for her she she would say in brief. 

My brother is a psychopath - inability to emote or has a delayed emotional response.  He's a suit and tie type of psychopath.  Everybody likes him (but he doesn't like everyone else unless they are part of his plan.)   I imagine that my bro was probably allergic to our m, not the breast milk and his psychopathy was a result of trauma. 

Based on my mother's brief guilt behavior when I joked about me being fat because I was starved in the womb, I have reason to believe she attempted to self-abort through starvation.  I was only joking around with her at the time, but she suddenly became very guilt-ridden in her behavior.   I weighed only 4lb 2oz when I was born.   

I have a scar on my upper lip.  I have scar on my tongue that looks as if it was nearly bitten in two at a very early age.  I do not know what happened.  I do know that my mother's story did not match up to her face when she told me.  Again, she had a look of horrific guilt on her face while telling me this. 

She was never openly violent but inwardly she was the most hateful person I have ever known and very sadistic emotionally and mentally.

"I can do whatever I want as long as I tell people what I'm going to do."  her talking about mind games.  She really believes this. 

k9 and paperclip, these stories reinforce to me why it's so difficult for anyone not familiar with such trauma at such an early age to even begin to understand what it means for us to be struggling with the invisible wounds we carry.  how could anyone comprehend this and what it does to the human brain, psyche, and spirit?

that you have survived, that we here have all survived to this point is nothing short of a miracle.  so very glad you're here.  this is indeed a very special community composed of very special people.  i'm so grateful for you all.   love all around.

Quote from: sanmagic7 on February 19, 2018, 11:56:22 AM
  love all around.

Right back atcha, you survivor you.  No more alonies.

A big yes to this sanmagic:

Quotethat you have survived, that we here have all survived to this point is nothing short of a miracle.  so very glad you're here.  this is indeed a very special community

Quoteit's so difficult for anyone not familiar with such trauma at such an early age to even begin to understand what it means for us to be struggling with the invisible wounds we carry. 

This has often been a source of bitterness in me... that so many others take for granted, like the oxygen they breath, their inner sense of security --something we have to build for ourselves through long years of struggle. Then at other times I can simply accept and forgive, and be thankful for the empathy and compassion that my journey has given me.

Quote from: Gwyon on February 21, 2018, 05:08:27 PM

Quoteit's so difficult for anyone not familiar with such trauma at such an early age to even begin to understand what it means for us to be struggling with the invisible wounds we carry. 

This has often been a source of bitterness in me... that so many others take for granted, like the oxygen they breath, their inner sense of security --something we have to build for ourselves through long years of struggle. Then at other times I can simply accept and forgive, and be thankful for the empathy and compassion that my journey has given me.

:yeahthat:

It really feels that way, as though people take the oxygen that they breathe for granted and can't imagine being alive without it. I keep trying to remind myself that it's a blind spot most people have, they can't imagine things that are far beyond their own experiences, things that scare them and would shatter their safe worldview.
It does feel very lonely though. I live without any oxygen, and if I don't hide it from others, I'm blamed for it. Often I'm offered advice  :doh: well intentioned, naive, clueless advice from people who haven't met evil and can't imagine it.

Personally, this is my suspicion as well - I was a month premature, and had no sucking reflex (one of the odd things about fetal development - there is a time when we cant feed...), it also transpired that I had issues with formula and ended up on soy or goats milk dependant on what was available...

My m returned to work early, and I was in the 'hands' of a childcare lady, who, amongst other things forced the adoption of using my right hand (yes, by binding), as I was apparently showing signs of being a leftie, and she didn't approve. I have no memories of this time at all. All of this is of course thrown back at me by my f, as 'of course I love you, i taught you to feed' as a precursor to the next round of verbal assault.

It's a mess, horrible and complex, and nasty - enmeshed within my FOO.

Rowan

 :hug: :hug: to you Rowan.

Rowan,
You are amazing and wonderful just as you are. Leftie rightie or bothie, like me. Safe hugs if okay... :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug:

Andy

 :wave: Me. for sure.

Intuitively I've known it for some time. Through deduction from conversations I've had with my mom, I verified it. Finally, last year my therapist confirmed that I had an attachment disorder...still do but much better today than ever. Intuitively, I know it was as an infant....I saw it when I watched my mother fumble through grandmother-hood with my daughter when she was infant. I had the most intense trigger to watching my mom coldly handle my daughter when she was about 6 weeks old. I can vividly remember my daughter acting colicky and my mom just laying her on her back and repeatedly plugging the pacifier in and out of her mouth with a disinterested expression on her face as my daughter lay screaming and staring at the ceiling. I remember this overpowering urge to swoop in and "save" my daughter (MYSELF) from my mother. At that point, I confirmed for myself that the trauma began at infancy. My mother has not one nurturing bone in her body.

My parents RARELY spoke about me positively. I was told that I was a "good baby" and my parents joked that once I started talking I "never shut up". Nice.

How did it impact me? Anxiety, depression, internalized self-hatred, low self-esteem, co-dependency, low expectations of myself, etc. etc. The only therapy that has led to significant improvement is attachment-based therapy.

SolongStockholm my T thinks I may have attachment disorder too, but I don't think so, more just C-PTSD as I do have empathy. As you can see from my earlier post, seeing my mother with my infant son, she had no idea how to soothe a baby.
G

Definitely
And I didn't know it until (at age 30) my mother told me I'd always been difficult

'You were always difficult. You were difficult as a baby. I had to hit you to make you cry so that you'd fall sleep' (elegant piece of victim blaming!)

I remember her taking my head, taking my brother's head and crashing them together. I was only a toddler and my brother was younger but I still feel the dizziness and recoil. I remember blood from a head wound. I think she pushed me into a wall.

I remember learning from the earliest age possible that it's just not worth going to mum. It's not gonna work. No nurture, no comfort, no warmth. She needs you to be good, don't ask for anything. Have no needs.
That and other things......
So, yes, years later the nightmares, the phobias, the hypervigilence, the eating disorders, the inability to form intimate relationships ....
And then the self doubt, because it was all so early
They really stitched me up.

***Trigger warning - mentioning physical violence here ***
Jenny Blount - I am so sorry you have experienced those things - no one should have to experience that.  My M used to do that with my sister's head against a wall on an almost daily basis, and would joke about 'banging your head's together' - I don't know if she ever did that to me, as I don't have any recollection of it, but my sister has told me that she suffered a lot of damage to her head as a result of this horrific treatment. 

:hug: to you, if that's ok and wishing it had been different for us all.
Hope  :)

Thank you to all of you for sharing your stories. It has provided me with a sense of sanity and somehow a sense of connection to others ( even though I've not met any of you)
Neglect in the womb and as an infant, and childhood also set up foundations for me that have made my life a difficult one to navigate.
I have memories of complete terror and fear, powerlessness and exhaustion as well as despair from infant neglect. These themes have shaped all my choices and I have been sorting through these themes and attempting to re wire my brain and heal those split and broken parts of myself. Unfortunately my choices from  a damaged perspective, created even more neglectful and abusive scenarios my whole life, until I started to delve very deep into myself and find self compassion and self love.
Now I experienced overwhelm and exhaustion and isolation when I am triggered. I cannot work very much and I haven't had a relationship for 10 years. The triggers can be like popcorn at times and I feel like my brain is exploding. But I am proud of myself for surviving and having the courage to keep going and believing in myself despite my darkest moments.
Thank you and I am sorry you all carry the deep wounds also. 💓

(Welcome to OOTS, Eljay  :heythere: )

Double post in the main...  :whistling:

:doh:

I was reminded of this by my dear partner, who reminded me that I'd been a difficult baby.

Thanks for all the lovely hugs, trying desperately to learn how to make that translate into warm'n'fuzzies

Rowan

Hey guys,
Humbled by your responses
Thank you

'Come sit beside me' I said to myself, and
(although it doesn't make sense)
I held my own hand, as a small sign of trust
And together I sat on the fence.

I've always loved that ditty, says it all really!

Hi Jenny Blount,
I think that poem is lovely - and it made me think of something I recently saw on a u-tube video about actually hugging oneself - i.e. putting arms around oneself with compassion and I have tried it, and it has been helpful in grounding me when I feel anxious or upset. 
Hope  :)

I know about head banging togehter too. Worst concussion I've experienced to date, was from M crashing my twin-brother's head and mine, together.  Knocked me out, head hit floor for 2X damage...TBI. Was not right for at least 2 weeks afterwards. This was maybe about 6-12 months after my first, a playground accident, that caused bl**ding from my R ear and broke R collarbone too. The known effects from that one lasted about a 7-10 days.  Ended up with 50% hearing loss from that ear. Was maybe 6-7 years old. I remember after regaining conciousness, having to hold on to grocery cart, to stay on my feet. Oh, didn't I say? She did this in a grocery store, left us laying on the floor and went on shopping. I had OOBE then, remember seeing myself lying on floor, not moving. Then walking behind myself once on my feet again.

AFter that is when Things in my head were no longer same as they had been. Like add symptoms and more.

Hi everyone, I'm new here and it broke my heart to hear your stories - what you have suffered when you were tiny babies, it makes me so sad and angry. I don't think ''regular people'' have any idea of this level of suffering. I haven't had such an extreme experience as many of you, but I know I suffered very early emotional neglect. I think I first started battling depression around the age of 2, by 6 it was part of my identity. My mother was chronically depressed, father abusive alcoholic (also chronically depressed). I remember long, dark, lonely and quiet days at home with my mother. She went through the motions and did her best to keep me clean and fed. But I always had a feeling I was dead, or a ghost. A death in my soul; but not a peaceful death, a panicked, overwhelmed death-like feeling. Time stood still, the days were so long, inescapable, slow pain.  Life already feels far too long and I'm only 38. An extreme emptiness and lack of connection to life, that's how I've always felt. I started to hate myself very young (by 4 I think I had BDD, I was disgusted by my face and appearance). I remember trying to wash the freckles off my face. I felt so ugly and that I was a horrible girl. There was no sexual abuse but I think the lack of mirroring, attachment, attunement etc was what caused the depression & toxic shame. The abuse came later. I still struggle every day to try to connect with life, how to live when you never even had a ''Square one?'' how do you build a life and live among other humans who you really have such little shared experience with. Big hugs to everyone here and I'm thankful to join this community.

Hi Stepone,
Firstly, you never ever were ugly or horrible, not then and not now. Okay? You are beautiful. And wonderful. And worthy. And deserving. As are we all. Yes, I understand you don't feel it. Most of us here don't either. Takes a long time to get there.  Here you will  be welcomed and accepted as you are. WE're all friends here.

I can relate to some of these sad stories as well.  I am an only child and came from a situation with a father who had been very traumatized as a child and did not really want to be my Dad.  He wanted a boy, not a girl, and I am sure there is much from my first two years which I will never remember.  What I do know is that the stress in our home gave me severe cholic which caused me to cry in pain.  This apparently embarrassed my Father and he made our little family move somewhere that there were no near neighbors so I would not bother people.  He had lots of stress in his job and brought it home with him.  Mom tried to protect me from his moods and anger, and mostly did so.  However, we had a home invasion when I was a baby and my "protector" ran from the home to get help from down the road.  I was upstairs and the intruder was downstairs.  It was the only time I didn't cry upon waking from a nap, so clearly I felt the danger.

On top of these dynamics, my Dad teased me all the time and made it clear that he considered me to be of equal status with his pet dog, who used to bite me.  Anyway, he was not a horrible person but really not Father material.  When he died, I felt nothing about the loss for many years.  When my Mom died, years and years later (I was in my 50's), my entire life fell apart.  I finally had to confront my demons and codependency. 

I am still daily working on overcoming codependency, anxiety, and depression,  it was a gift to  discover this site 4 years ago.  I appreciate the hard work that everyone here puts into their healing.  Y

Hi Andyman73, thank you so much for your kind words - they bought many tears and really touched me - I hope you also know that you are wonderful and  that you have made a new person feel very welcome and safe, thank you :)
And Jdog, I'm so sorry your father treated you so horribly, my father also wanted a boy and was very disappointed to see I was a girl. He was present in the delivery room and has told me (''jokingly'') of his disappointment at that time. He also couldn't deal with his job stress and drank heavily and was angry/abusive throughout my childhood. I'm 38 now and they are still alive, I wonder also how I will feel when they pass away. Take good care and I hope you know that you deserved so much better.

Quote from: Stepone on July 25, 2018, 03:05:36 PM
Hi Andyman73, thank you so much for your kind words - they bought many tears and really touched me - I hope you also know that you are wonderful and  that you have made a new person feel very welcome and safe, thank you :)
And Jdog, I'm so sorry your father treated you so horribly, my father also wanted a boy and was very disappointed to see I was a girl. He was present in the delivery room and has told me (''jokingly'') of his disappointment at that time. He also couldn't deal with his job stress and drank heavily and was angry/abusive throughout my childhood. I'm 38 now and they are still alive, I wonder also how I will feel when they pass away. Take good care and I hope you know that you deserved so much better.

Hi Stepone  :wave: :heythere: You're quite welcome!
Ya makin me blush!  ;D Thank you for saying that. I know how hard it is to feel belonging anywhere. As most of us do, I'm sure. For me, it was a huge struggle to even feel worthy of any online survivor community. One thing I do to help myself, is to warmly welcome new members whenever I can. We all need to stick together. Nobody knows like we know. I'm honored to have made you feel welcomed and safe.  ;D

** TW**. I am sure my trauma started immediately after birth. I was given up for adoption at birth and spent 8 months in an orphanage (yes, in the US).  My adopted mother said I hadn't been held and had never seen solid food.  When I had kids, it always struck me when they were that age how much love, nurturing and teaching we had been through, and I can't imagine not having it (although the cptsd won't let me escape it). Now if only my adopted family (my FOO) hadn't ignored, ridiculed and let me know how worthless I was, along with physical abuse, ignoring the sexual abuse by a neighbor starting when I was three, I would definitely say the first 8 months were my core trauma. But who knows?

Checkach-

Welcome to our forum.  I am sorry that not only did so much happen to you early in life but that you seem to recall it so vividly.  You will find much support here.  I hope that you also have support in the real world, whether that's in the form of family and friends or a therapist, or all of the above, 

Thanks for writing.

My primary care giver (my NPD mother) was my first and main abuser... mostly neglect and emotional abuse.  The physical abuse was from most adult female family members on my mother's side (grandmother, aunt, older cousins, etc.).  The men tended to be alcoholics and were simply checked out.

Some of my emotional flashbacks are very hard to pin-point the source of.

I just had one this weekend... likely triggered by a very rare call from my mother, whom I have cut off contact with... mostly.  I can't seem to close the door completely.

I was fine the day of the call and pretty good for a few days, but this weekend, I just emotionally crashed and dissociated from myself.

She had called me to inform me of my uncle's death (on my dad's side... the more sane side)... I was numb about this news... still am... also numb about my grandmother's death a few months ago (also dad's side... this leaves only my dad for that extended family).  His role is the peacemaker and enabler of my NPD mom... so I can't really keep in communication with him either.

I attributed the numbness to having my guard up with having to talk to her after almost 2 years since our last conversation.  And maybe it was anxiety from not feeling anything about these rare family members who were not abusers... I should feel something, right?

So this weekend I jut had this overwhelming sense of sadness... but I could not pin it down to anything in particular that I was sad about.  I told my wife it is just really hard to have a mother who never loved me, and can never love me.

Not sure if this helps... just that I identify with having faceless "moods" probably springing from emotional trauma from before the age of 3.

Hi RiverRabbit,
I just wanted to say that I read what you wrote here, and I relate to what you're saying - and I hope you will find some support here - in this forum - I think emotional trauma from such a young age, it's tough to process - and I wish I had more words right now, because I am not sure what else to say right now.  I do relate also to what you said about finding it difficult to pin-point the source of flashbacks or feelings - I do that as well.
Hope  :)

Hi River Rabbit.

I think that your reference to "faceless moods" is a really apt expression. The EFs seem, for me, to be linked to particularly traumatic early childhood events, but the rest of the time, I too have these faceless moods. For me, this reflects the utter emptiness of never having any love, or anything positive from my mother, from the day of my birth. This was always quite freely admitted by her, and she couldn't see how it could possibly have had any detrimental effect on me, as she fed and clothed me. This has damaged me to the very core of my being, so I understand your thoughts entirely.

Having a mother who never loved you isn't something that can be got over, I don't believe, but we can learn to mitigate its effects.

Take care,

Libby.

Yes, I grew up with an alcoholic father and a drug addict mother knowing that I was a revenge baby and wasn't wanted. My mom went off birth control without telling my dad and got pregnant. When she told him she was pregnant he wasn't happy so she tried to abort me with home abortion tips, they didn't work obviously. Anyway she had me but I wasn't wanted so they started neglecting me, they wouldn't pick me up if I was crying and they prided themselves on the fact that they could leave me alone for hours at a time in a swing or laying on the floor and I wouldn't make a sound. They told me that "once I learned my place and how to shut up I was an easy baby to care for". At 6 weeks old my mom went back to work and I was bounced around between my grandma's house and my aunt's house. My parents really didn't raise me and I never really had a home or a primary caregiver. My grandma and aunt told me that as a baby I would rarely smile or coo, I shrank away from touch, and would just sit quietly without making much if any noise (no I am not autistic).
Sorry for the brief overview it's all I can manage right now.   

I can relate to this. It is hard for me, because I try to look for the rational, the reasonable. And without any memory I doubt. But it's like looking at fossils. Inside a rock you can find the impression of leaves, animals, tracks. The actual plant, the animal that lived or traveled in that primordial mud is long gone. But there is an impression of it left. A trace of its existence. A fact.

I can't deny that I have CPTSD, because I can line up all the symptoms, all the problems, all the losses and deficits and tick them off like a list. But without any memory of that earliest abuse/neglect I think could it really have happened? But the shadow impressions are there in the rock. Indelible, immutable and unarguable.

I wish I had the memories. Because then I would have something I could fight.

Maricelt-

I absolutely understand and echo what you are saying about wishing for more than shadows to fight.  It's very tough to have been abused before words could be formed.

It has been so incredibly valuable to me to read all of these entries. Thank you to everyone for sharing.

I am learning that I have been quite dramatically affected by neglect and abandonment in my very early years, potentially from when I was a baby.

My mother recently admitted that she used to take drugs to escape whilst in the same room as as me when I was a baby because she 'couldn't deal with it' ... I don't know if that means me crying, or maybe my need for her brought up some sort of dissociation, as she was abandoned during her childhood a number of times.

Some body work I did with a therapist included her asking me to recall a form of violent abuse that happened to me regularly, that has no particular start date. I became paralysed with fear and she tried to help me work through it by rubbing my hands against my arms. I almost fell asleep, my arms and legs went numb and I couldn't talk properly for about 5-10 minutes. She held my hands until I could sense touch again and once I had regained physical sensation, I cried. She believed that this indicated a strong likelihood that abuse had begun in infancy. Whether this would be neglect or violence I am not sure.

Some things that I think might be related to early years neglect/abandonment are:
- My main trigger response is freeze.
- I have spent my life trying to make cosy safe spaces, with warm blankets, soft bed, snug.
- I can viscerally remember the smell of my mother's skin, and even the taste. It feels like a sad memory. Perhaps I craved it.
- When I think of myself as a baby I feel uncomfortable, sad and often feel like crying

This is an old thread and I apologize for the late contribution.  Its for myself mostly.
I was not wanted by my father, and apparently there was much conflict and stress while i was in utero because I was a surprize sprung on my father.   My mother told me he refused to ackowledge me, touch me or pick me up when I was a baby.  She also told me she was suicidal (and obviously depressed) when i was in my first year and was threatening divorce.  My father was institutionalized for a breakdown around that time. 
Mom also left my sister and I alone for hours when she left the house to drive who knew where.  Often when my father got home from work he had to change my diapers, and I can only imagine the resentment he felt (and transmitted to me) while he did this.  At least once the police were called when my sister was wandering the yard naked, in the snow, when she was 3 (and I would have been just a few months old).   I remember being locked in my room in my crib for the afternoon nap that lasted for hours and no matter how much I cried out mom didn't come.  Was she even in the house?  I'll never know.  I also never spoke until I was 3 years old.
Both parents were completely self absorbed and neglecting.  My sister got some attention from my father but me, none except anger and slapping.  I was never considered interesting enough to bother with by my father, and only if I was cute or sad enough to entertain her  was my mother good for more than a few moments attention.
I have never had a deep sense of safety anywhere or with anyone, and it is still a struggle 60 years later.
Thank you for the space to vent a little.

This first comment is not specific to the thread, as I did contribute to it earlier.

I'd just like to mention there's no need to apologize for responding to old threads. People come and go regularly on this forum, and many 'older' posts newcomers might find relevant and wish to add commentary. In part I surmise that's why the old material is archived (thanks, administrators, for doing this!). Another reason I mention this is there's loads of material from even a few years ago that is still as useful as when originally posted.
---
If it's alright, cgl77, I'd like to offer this --  :hug: I also relate to what you noted about the unsafe feelings lingering for so long after the initial abuse/abandonment incidents. Though I'm sure it felt awful to write about, I hope that you also derived some small sense of relief just for having found this way to vent.

It's very hard to find people who can truly empathize with what you described. The feelings can destroy our trust in people, as you point out. At least here, cgl77, you are not alone in your sadness from things that were senseless and not your fault.   

I would like to add my :hug: if it's okay, cgl. You're valued here.

Thank you both for the  :hug:  it feels great!
I was diagnosed with major depression 25 years ago and have had several good therapists, two of whom suggested there may be PTSD.  Like many, I partially dismissed that as improbable because 'no single horrific event or wartime episodes occurred so how could it be PTSD.'   Then suddenly last April the veil tore and it has been flooding out ever since.  I had done an admirable job of suppressing!  I feel lousy now, and look longingly at the TV adds where people my age are depicted riding Harleys along the coast or traveling the world or hugging grandkids and I just feel like crap.  Dealing with SI is a daily event.  I feel panic when this feels like the 'new normal'.  I am so grateful to my dogs and a few  kind people, plus a good therapist, for staying with me while I wade through the #$*&!   

Woodsgnome thank you for your comment about not apologising for responding to old threads. Our shared experiences, whenever we write about them, remain those experiences and remain highly relevant to our journey of understanding.

cg177, I, for one, have been helped and prompted to respond by reading what you wrote.

I'm in my early 70s and share your experience of a father and mother by whom I was abandoned from the start - a father who did not touch me except to beat me or talk to me except to demean me; a mother who lashed out at me at random, routinely left me 'to cry it out' on my own and once confessed that she used to go shopping all day and forget she had a baby and then come home at night and find I was still there in the cot.

Recently I had a full day and night of being caught in a terrifying state of pleading panic and disintegration where all I could do was cry and say 'please', pleading uselessly into a void. I think I was caught in that timeless panic of so many years ago. I too, after all these years "have never had a deep sense of safety anywhere or with anyone".

What extreme cruelty to cause such profound damage to a helpless human being!

So thank you for sharing. My heart goes out to you because I sense we share similar experiences.

Its worth noting, bluepalm, that the neglect we're talking about from decades ago would land mom in jail today, as it should.  I know I have minimized to myself the extent of the neglect and abuse and that just doesn't work.  My family appeared to be a healthy, all american middle class nuclear family with enough food, clothing and shelter provided.  My parents considered that to be all that was necessary for parenting.  Of course, the real damage being done wasn't visible to outsiders and that's part of what made it so insidious.

Your (pl) stories made me weep. I understand the feeling, as my history is very similar, and I've also been carrying this around for decades. No matter how I try to analyze it, it all seems so senseless.
I wish there were a way to ensure that only people who really wanted to be good (enough) parents reproduced. So much damage and pain could be averted

  :hug: Thank you all for sharing so bravely of your inner pain on this awful matter. My heart aches for all of us being born into a family/parent who wasn't prepared for a child.  A child is supposed to be the most beautiful gift a person can have... So it is not possible to make sense of our experiences. I read all your posts and it took me some time to do. Needed time to process. Many times I tried to make sense of this "childhood " we had.  And I came to think of my cat. She had kittens on many occasions.  But as soon as she could she dumped the kittens and went out to have some fun. So just like her my m was able to get children. Her body functioned in this aspect. But just like that cat my m was no mother.
To be a mother is a verb. It's not a title.

So bcz of her I have lived with cptsd my whole life. Having thoughts and feelings that were symptoms of the abuse. The only reason why I function at all is bcz I had older siblings that were curious about me. So they touched, they spoke and they acknowledged that I was born. Or even alive.   :disappear:

But you here have given me so much healing by sharing. I can not enough tell you please  - Thank you so very much for articulating your own experience. I have now for the first time in my life been sleeping without nightmares. Consisting of dreams were I am being murdered in one awful way or another. My inner infant screaming for food  - has been heard through you - and I now am able to eat in a normal way. There are many things still to heal. But I am so thankful for you.
:grouphug:

 :grouphug:  back atcha, heart!  i'm just glad some of those issues have been put to rest.

 :yeahthat: Good progress, Heart :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: :grouphug:

I understand and identify. You are not alone.  :hug:

Quote from: saylor on November 24, 2019, 04:54:33 PMI wish there were a way to ensure that only people who really wanted to be good (enough) parents reproduced. So much damage and pain could be averted

Thank you for this observation Saylor! A few years ago I had a similar reflection that went like this:
In order to legally get behind the wheel of a car you have to spend months practicing driving accompanied by an instructor, then accompanied by your parents for at least several months more. You have to read all the rules, study the road regulations and at the end take a written test as well as a test driving a vehicle with an examiner. And there aint nothing MORE complicated than a baby! Why in almost all societies is there zero preparation for future parents? Not that that would necessarily change deep-seated mentally unbalanced people... Certainly it'd be a political minefield topic, but wouldn't some kind of screening during preparation to have a baby be a way to let folks know... "Hey, um there're two or three things we noticed about your behavior that will probably be really destructive to any child you have... Are you really certain you wanna have kids?!?!"

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. Took awhile to read through it and much of it wasn't easy, but hearing all this really makes me feel less alone. Thank you thank you thank you.