Out of the Storm

Please note that this thread started off as two separate ones about eating issues, but it was decided to amalgamate them so anyone who wants to post about the general issue of over/under eating can do so. So, for anyone posting to this thread please know it is OK to talk about any eating issue you may have without worrying about hijacking the thread


It feels like the right time to tackle my long standing CPTSD related morbidity - my weight.  I have never wanted to talk about it here because I had gained so much when I started OOTS and was ashamed because I just can't seem to get a handle on it.  I'm the yo-yo dieter personified - lost  25 - 50 pounds many times trying all kinds of methods (WW, Dr. Bernstein, a medically supervised program, even a gastric band), but would gain it all back and then some. 

Not too long ago I was watching a show about a transgender youth and she was also struggling with weight gain.  She saw a hypnotherapist and in exploring why she was overeating she said something that resonated completely with me "I am hungry for acceptance."  Hunh, maybe my struggle is because I am hungry for love or at least part of me (inner child) still is I think.  I wrote this in another post about a different topic - as a child I always felt like I was starving in what looked like a sea of plenty (covert NPD family and M who went out of her way to feed her image of being the best mother ever).  But that all felt empty to me, like it wasn't about me. 

In my childhood I developed this habit of eating when I went to bed. I would cuddle down under the covers and eat my snack, I guess it was a source of comfort after a long stressful day.  It is still my safe place and time when I can block out the world and food still gives me such a sense of comfort.  I have tried not to eat at night but it's like I cannot get to sleep unless I do. I'm pretty sure I can feel my Inner Child crying because she likes it and doesn't want to give it up frankly, like it's all she had and how can I take it away from her?  Quitting smoking was honestly easier to do then to stop eating at night, maybe because I was stopping something adult me liked and I could see the health reasons so much more clearly.  I'm left with the inescapable conclusion that trauma  is still driving this need, and like most issues relating to my CPTSD until I bring it fully to the surface and process it I will not be able to get a handle on this. 

Anyway, I'd be interested if anyone has a shared experience or some thoughts on this  :yes:

I'll get back to you on this Kizzie. It's not a topic I can write much about this evening. I am an overeater now though. I don't yo-yo, I just add more and more weight. I used to be a bit underweight.

Maybe a year ago I tried exploring the topic in trauma T but there was no definitive answer as to why I eat and what food is replacing. I've looked at the issue in various forms of therapy before but never in trauma therapy. My T is always interested in why I or inner parts of me do things and not what people in general / past therapists / the media think.

i agree with you both that the 'why' of this eating is the most important thing to discover.  i know  a lot of people who have gone 12-step (OA) with this and never delved into their issues and have done really well with it.  i went the OA route for over a year, but it really didn't help much.

have also done a therapy group on this, and even wrote my own 6-wk. program that i've taught others, and many of them seemed to get a lot of help from it.  however, it never quite took with me for some reason.  now my body's systems are so messed up that i can pretty much eat healthy most of the time, but i have to have a certain amount of fullness feeling in my stomach or it knocks me out of whack emotionally, and i feel stressed, and that then wreaks havoc with my being and then i eat more to calm myself  -  it gets to be a loop that i get stuck in until i can start over.

so, kizzie, congrats on your courage for posting about this.   it sounds like you might already have insight into your 'why'.  have you ever done any 'talk to the child' work in therapy around this?  i'm thinking about the idea that you put a representation of that little you on a chair, then sit opposite her and tell her what it is she needs to hear, what she needed to hear from her/your parents that would assuage her need to eat something in order to reduce her stress from the day.

food as comfort is not unusual, as i'm sure you know.  i just wrote about my sugar addiction (which i once read was a way to 'sweeten' up your life, like eating chocolate was a substitute for an unsatisfactory sex life or ice cream was a way to 'smooth' out a rough patch, etc.).  while i've gone without sweets before in my life, i think part of what i've done with them lately is, once again, cuz of stress -   

so, i'm basically being abstinent from sweets right now, and have to find a way again to be ok with not doing what 'everyone else' does re: dessert and snacks.  the one thing i can tell myself is that i don't 'need' sweets and that they are, in fact, harmful to me.  my metabolism has changed, my body doesn't process sugar like it used to (i was raised on sugar), and it's now hurting me.

it's one more abusive relationship that i have to go nc with.  love and hugs to you, kizzie, and my best to you with this.  it's a stinker.

I related to that need for comfort food before. I'd feel numb and helpless, so I'd reach out for a nice lovely bar of chocolate regularly. I managed to stop it with mindfulness for craving, or mindfulness for addictions really. It's less of something that I stopped by forcing me to change my behavior outside, but by being able to accept and fully feel whatever is inside as I wanted to grab for something sweet. Sometimes even then, I'd eat, but awareness would grow where I'm aware of the craving well before something sweet is near.

I guess another reason why I got rid of it is I replaced it with another comfort, which honestly was TV. It sounds bad trying to replace the bad, but what I watched was the type of TV I could learn about life and get inspired by certain characters to act. It was procrastination sometimes really, but it was an upgrade of destroying my health and making my worries worse. Eventually I'd upgrade into more active escapes, like journaling, learning a new hobby, or something like that.

I didn't really see things as "unhealthy" coping skills or "healthy" coping skills. I saw it as a spectrum, a collection of steps going upward, and how different activities are different for all of us.

Not that I'm perfect health wise. I'm not that fat, but I'm a little soft in the belly area, but I guess it's alright.

Hey there,

This was sort of my area of speciality. That being said I've totally relapsed on my eating issues and body shame. My business was to help trauma survivors with body shame and so on. I went to nutrition school. It was an anti-weight based health paradigm school. The point is restrictive dieting doesn't work, in fact it just creates more problems and weight tends to increase over time. There is so much to say here, but the most important thing is that it's not wrong to have fat on our bodies. Weight is statically the worst indicator we have of health. What are better indicators? Healthy behaviors are a much better indicator. The number on the scale doesn't mean as much as we have been led to believe.

I carry a lot of my shame from my trauma and project it onto my body. I'm doing it all over again now. I've been binging and eating just lots of whatever. I feel like I've regressed back to little 9 year old me that was trying to put on weight to protect herself from abuse and also perpetuate this feeling of unworthiness. If I'm 'fat' then I'm less than, I don't deserve xyz (love, acceptance, sunshine, pretty much whatever). It can go pretty deep. I think a bit of fat can feel like protection too.

I actually think it's sweet that you are soothing your inner child with a snack at night. Maybe she just still needs it. Here's a possibly radical idea, what if it was just ok to do this? What if it was ok to be 'fat'? Dieting doesn't work, restrict=binge. That's the research. We can make healthy behavior changes but when they are weight based, they are shame based, and the research is that this pretty much never works, or only does so for a short period of time.

Anyways I thought I just kick some of these ideas around in case any of this struck some cord with you. I know you are looking at it as a health issue. All I can say is for many of the weight thing is so much deeper. If we let go of the number on the scale (this is a big idea for most of us as we have been led to believe low weight=health) and focus on small attainable goals like eating more fruits and veg, or getting a little more activity this actually goes way further for our health than changing the amount of fat on our bodies. 

I'm crying cause I gave up on my business/program about this, and you know where I'm at right now. This is my life's work. Thanks for reminding me Kizzie... :hug:

I lose 15-20kg, then have a bad patch and start eating again, I used to be very under weight, didn't eat for days , then when I began working I could afford to binge and stacked the weight on, now Im never full and crave unhealthy foods. Being able to link my eating issues with my CPTSD hopefully will help me deal with it. Good luck, sorta helps to hear that there are others with similar issues.

Pls excuse minor hijack Kizzie!

Quote from: artemis23 on March 30, 2018, 01:48:56 AM
I'm crying cause I gave up on my business/program about this, and you know where I'm at right now. This is my life's work.

:bighug: :bighug: to you artemis.


From me, huge thanks for the information on this topic.

Over in Kizzie's thread Weighty Issues I wrote this "Maybe a year ago I tried exploring the topic in trauma T but there was no definitive answer as to why I eat and what food is replacing. I've looked at the issue in various forms of therapy before but never in trauma therapy. My T is always interested in why I or inner parts of me do things and not what people in general / past therapists / the media think. "  I don't want to take this thought further over there and hijack the thread.

I remembered today there was one answer my T and I came up with. I used to be 'anorexic without significant weight loss'. I didn't want to exist, I didn't believe deep down that I had a right to exist. I didn't even digest food and absorb nutrients properly back then. e.g. I was on iron supplements for years because of that. It was as if my body refused to take on the iron. My iron stores were always super depleted. For about 2 years now, they've been good. I haven't changed my diet significantly, except maybe in that it's less healthy. There's certainly no additional iron in my diet. Recent blood tests show iron levels all fine.

Anyway deep belief: Blueberry no right to exist, Blueberry took up too much space but blueberry better try her best not to take up so much space. So don't eat. Don't, well, exist. Do best to be invisible.

That's changing. It's real progress  :cheer: I do have a right to exist, just like everybody else on this earth. And one way in which this is noticeable is that I'm no longer trying to fade into the background, literally. I'm not trying to be invisible. I'm bigger, I take up more space.

So I asked myself this morning if I couldn't find ways other than eating and my physical size to show that I'm good with taking up space on this earth. Other ways are scary. NTS that's a child speaking ('scary' is childspeak for me). I have been finding other ways which I post about on here from time to time. But immediate feeling this morning is: other ways are scary and difficult. Sometimes they lead to very strong SH impulse. Part of what is behind SH (in my case) is: not wanting to exist, wanting to reduce myself. So, counterproductive if I do SH instead of overeating.

artemis' suggestion (on Kizzie's thread) that maybe one could be just good with one's weight, or something to that effect, is good for me. I'm long since 'pretty good' with it actually. Much more accepting of it and of me than when I weighed 30 kg less. But then sometimes I'm blindsided by what other people think and say. It's not their business but it's not always easy to ignore. Or just knowing how important physical health is for some friends and I feel ashamed in advance for when they next see me and see I've gone up another size.

On a desert island I'd be good with my weight and size (but not with all other physical aspects of myself that were shamed a lot by FOO) but not in society all the time. I try to remember that on particularly good days moodwise, I feel less fat than on bad days moodwise, though physically there is no difference.

NTS: my thread on here was entitled Taking Up (Physical) Space or sth very similar.

No worries BB, not a a hijack because I was going to do the same thing.  Artemis, in the midst of a really bad time you took precious energy to help me -  :bighug:  tk you so much my friend, I can't tell you how wonderful that made me feel.  :yourock:   Perhaps when you are able this might be an area for you to pursue again.  I think there are many, many of us out here who could benefit from a knowledgeable and compassionate nutritionist  in our corner who gets that Complex PTSD plays a big role in why we over/under eat.  It would be akin to having Pete Walker in our corner.  Because he has Complex  PTSD he seems to understand our issues from the inside out and outside in, that's why his writing resonates with so many us.  Anyway, that's for another day but it may be a path for you in the future.

I know I will definitely benefit from finally being able (and willing  :)) to talk openly about this whole issue in the context of having Complex PTSD because I sense that's where my answers are.  You may be right Artemis that perhaps my IC still really needs that nighttime eating, that is   what it feels like.  I can sense anger and fear when I think about a whole exercise program and diet, we've been through that many, many times and I just couldn't seem to sustain it. When I think about it in retrospect it was because inevitably life stresses would trigger me into having EFs and poof there went the energy and desire to keep going, and up went the need for numbing, comfort. I loved that food comforted/number me and I guess I really needed it, and I guess still need it. Hmmmm.

I do have hope (and perhaps that's why I am able to finally post about this), that I can help younger me.  I have worked with her in recovery and have gotten her to trust me about other issues (e.g., going to the dentist or doctor's does not elicit fears and tears and the need for comfort food like it once did; I quit smoking and drinking because she understood how bad it was for us).  I don't want to shame her or me and yet it's hard to look in a mirror.  So how to stop shaming and feel more compassion and find comfort in other ways that are meaningful to her/me? 

I never have addressed this in therapy, honestly I just could not bring it up because on some level I knew how much I needed the comfort/numbing and was afraid how I would feel if I had to give it up forever. No amount of reason ever seemed to do anything to dissuade that deep feeling of need.  I suspect that Inner Child work is the way to go on this.  I do sense that she is still hungry for love and joy, that despite the recovery she and I have experienced there is still a ways to go toward thriving - not quite there yet. (By the way, since yesterday she has been giving me a hard time for posting about this.) 

Anyway, maybe we can put our heads together and come up with some real ideas of how to help those of us struggling with this problem.

Blueberry, I can total relate to feeling like you don't get to exist and wanting to take up less space in the world. I do this thing where I gain weight and use it to shame myself for taking up too much space, I've done it weight weigh loss as well. I'm so glad that you've made progress with yours and body size. That's amazing progress and not easy to fight the stigma that surrounds all of us about weight and health. We have become obsessed with this, globally. Its a many billion dollar industry and they generally just make more and more money because we are doomed to fail at dieting and there is always something else to pick at that's not this or that enough. It is totally understandable that other ways you are less comfortable with taking up space in the world can trigger SH. I tend to self destruct before succeeding at something, without even realizing it.

When dealing with other's opinions of or reactions to my body, I (eventually) try and see it as a mirror of their own insecurities. Sometimes those people are just downright mean. Like this one 'friend' who always comments on my body and it's always triggering. I just avoid her now and I know how unhappy she is in her own and that's sad. We all do the comparison thing and it can drive us to insanity. I would say that I don't know why or when we all needed to look the same when we are a diversity of colors, shapes and sizes (and that's normal), but I do know and it was extremely political. Actually, as soon as women's lib hit in the US, the culture shifted to the 'twiggy' ideal. That's a fine body type if it's yours, but only 5% of women posses it naturally. Since you have had a full on ED you know what it's like to spend that much time thinking about food and your body, doesn't really leave much for anything else...like joy or creativity. That's a long story anyways.

Keep at the taking up more space thing as safely as possible. When I started making videos I nearly panicked every time I was so uncomfortable with the whole thing. And other things I did, it was rough but it gets easier with practice. But thanks for sharing about this.  :hug:

Thanks Blueberry and Kizzie! I cried cause I forgot who I was for awhile, man that was hard. And since I had a breakdown and failed, and then was with abuser who made sure I didn't succeed at this, and now my mom who any time I bring up the little amount I need to finish it up, magically becomes unsupportive, it means SO SO much to me to be validated and shown that I am a person who has something to contribute. That I've just had a setback and put it down again. I've been thinking lately how I don't have to give up forever, I just have to get back up at some point. I let people down, I felt so much shame. I want to be done with that. This is really important work and as many of us can contribute to us as possible are needed.

Kizzie, I'm proud of you for bringing it up. For so so many of us food was our only comfort as children so it's no wonder we return to that old friend. They've proven that sugar soothes anxiety. Food is calming to the body, especially when we make these associations in our early programming. I could understand why your IC doesn't want to give it up. When I've worked on this myself with mine, I try to do gentle reparenting.

I think the first thing with food stuff though that totally takes the shame/fear out of it and can even change the whole behavior is total and utter permission. No more dieting rules, no more restrictions or strict programs. Small, gentle changes. Telling yourself you can have as much ice cream (or whatever) as you want sounds crazy, but now try telling yourself it's your last bowl ever...hahah. I find when I just allow myself to eat emotionally or however I want or need to it takes the shame out of it because we remove the 'shouldn't'. I was taught that it's time to decriminalize food. No good or bad foods, all food provide some nutrients, some just are more dense in nutrients than others. I tell my IC or self I can have as much of it as I want, and sometimes i eat a lot and then gradually, magically, I can enjoy different amounts.

The body shame and the mirror is what it is. It's ok to not feel good about how our bodies look. Blueberry mentioned in her other post, fat is a 'feeling'. We really call it that now. What does it even mean. We aren't fat, we have fat. Lately I've been complimenting my body on it's ability to store excess calories SO efficiently. lol. Like wow what a wonderful thing we have been given, to have a body. We almost all have forgotten what it does, instead are hyperfocused on how it appears. I made this beautiful free body love meditation but the sites down at the moment. But shoot I need to hear it.

Also, I can and will highly, highly, highly recommended some great books.

1) Eating in the Light of the Moon, by Dr. Anita Johnston (for women). Fabulous...uses myth/archetype to digest this whole subject. For women, specifically. Most of us have forgotten we are naturally round (not all, and every body is perfect and beautiful thin or round or whatever), but this has been robbed from us. (this book is my favorite).

2) Health at Every Size by Linda Bacon - Easy to digest about all the research on how weight does not equal health and so on. She's a personal hero and leader of this movement in the US nutrition world, it is really picking up traction despite the media.

It helps me to help you. A read something a wise woman wrote that said something like sometimes a sister just needs to help lift up another sister to remember who she is (mama gina), substitute whatever gender pronouns but yeah. It's real.  :hug:

i saw the ryan gosling movie last nite 'lars and the real girl', and the message i got from it was that we need to do what we need until we don't need it anymore.  so, i think you're right on, kizzie, with just letting it be for now, till you and your little you are ready.

i also agree with you, artemis, that numbers aren't the answer - scale, size, pounds/kilos, etc.  i also liked what you said about having fat rather than being fat.  takes that label right off.  i believe that the healthier we get through recovery, the healthier we'll manage thru other areas of our lives, including food/eating. 

bottom line - we're ok the way we are.   love and hugs all around.

Keep on talking to me  and to all of us who struggle with this Artemis  :yes:  I'm not kidding when I say that younger me leaned forward and read every word with such a feeling of hope and acceptance.  And yes, there were some tears because she can finally talk about what she needs and with you and others who want to stop body shaming and all that kind of naus.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.   :hug: 

I have to go out right now but I will be thinking about all that you have said and will look at the books you have recommended.  It may be that we can add a section to our "Books" page as it seems there are more than a few of us who have struggles with food.  :thumbup:

I feel the need for a :grouphug:

 :grouphug:

Oh, yes there are quite a few food strugglers on here.

Guys, honestly I can't relate much. I've never really had much of a problem with appearance, but I thought I'd give you guys a hug too.

:grouphug:

Sceal had a similar problem and I replied to her something about it. Maybe you guys can benefit from it too, though not having experienced it to the extent you have, I can't promise I'll fully understand you all.

Quote from: DecimalRocket on April 01, 2018, 12:50:58 AM
Sceal, I can't relate much. I've been insecure, but not of my looks, and comments of being physically beautiful or ugly has no effect on me. Though thinking of having a specific gender with my looks worries me, and I try not to think about it too much. Though, I've had friends who felt this way, and I've seen a lot of these kinds of issues online.

It must be hard really. Changing yourself physically is something incredibly difficult when it comes to weight. Not to mention other physical parts that can't be changed much because of genes. Unlike the things I'm insecure about which are often invisible traits, physical traits are easily seen. People can look at you and they'll know it, and you'll know they know it.

I've been introduced to cartooning before, and while I'm not that good at it (Things that aren't STEM or writing related is a little. . .), I often found it interesting how different body shapes are on characters. When looking at animation where everyone looks exactly the same isn't as interesting, and variety speaks to the talent of a cartoonist's ability to show the uniqueness of a character. 

Sometimes I observe people's different appearances from afar, and I like how different people are. I remember when reading about drawing, one artist talked about that when she drew, everything was beautiful. There's a counterintuitive drawing trick where people are supposed to draw a picture that's upside down. This is because they're more likely to see it purely as lines, shapes and shades rather than be prejudice to it of what you think it is.

The special thing about drawing is that they don't draw what they think is there. They draw what they really see is there.

I had/have similar problems as well. I was naturally small but the second I started putting om any kimd of healthy weight I stopped eating, and often puked up what i did eat. (This is why i didn't respond to kizzie, I felt shame for having the ooposite issue....)

The cause was two fold. One, not wanting to take up soace or exist (you hit this one on the nail, Blueberry). Two, I had to be perfect and the level of perfection meant being 'twiggy' as someome mentioned here.

I still struggle with eating, all centered around thoughts that directly deal with my Cptsd. I am now what most people would consider healthy weight, but I have the need to lose weight... to not be as noticeable or imperfect.


Sorry I don't mean to hijack if I did at all

Sending more of a group hug  :grouphug:

Have been reading with great interest, and relate on some level. I just cant respond because some shame demons have reared their head.

 :grouphug:

 :grouphug:

I'm glad you brought this all up Kizzie, I'm dealing with it too rn. It's easier when I can relate to others for sure.

I'm not sure if I mentioned it here, but the article I published that has my F up in arms and being stalkery and annoying, it was all about this, and it was/is beautiful. It's not about him really. But reading this and responding has given me a lot of strength and courage and I'm not afraid about him anymore. A peace has descended over me about it. I remembered why I did and and will continue with it. I wrote applied for a grant to get some funding for my site and realized there are other ways to do this. Maybe create a whole resource page and just drop the coaching till I'm well again. And shame on him! I will turn what happened to me into something good. I'm coming back to life! Thank you for your courage and vulnerability. No shame, no shame!

I'm glad you shared, Elphanigh. I've done that as well at different points. What i realized in my journey was that it was easier to feel shame about my body than about the trauma I went through...easier to feel it about something I perceived to be 'controllable' as well! And in a society where no one is safe in their body type, regardless, and body shame is part of the culture (very much now for men as well), it's easy to just slip into this behavior, and totally understandable.  :hug:

No worries Elphanigh, that's not a hijack! Sounds very similar in fact - not wanting to take up space or exist. And then having to be perfect. We just had different ways of dealing with it. I never puked and I'm glad about that for myself. That's not a 'holier than than thou' thing, it's just that I have trouble inflicting actual pain on myself or doing things to my body, it even feels slightly cowardly but it's probably good that way! Have trouble doing things to other bodies too, e.g. when I had my pets, I used to need help to administer meds. Also has to do with my problems with my hands and slightly technical things, I realise as I write.

My SH method also had a lot to do with not being perfect physically and with not existing. Every hair gone meant I existed less. That's not an interpretation in hindsight. That was the really the case back then, my thought sometimes with each hair gone. "I exist less, I weigh less."

Sounds really positive artemis  :cheer:

Quote from: DecimalRocket on March 30, 2018, 12:42:49 AM
I related to that need for comfort food before. ... I managed to stop it with mindfulness for craving, or mindfulness for addictions really. It's less of something that I stopped by forcing me to change my behavior outside, but by being able to accept and fully feel whatever is inside as I wanted to grab for something sweet. Sometimes even then, I'd eat, but awareness would grow where I'm aware of the craving well before something sweet is near.
....

I didn't really see things as "unhealthy" coping skills or "healthy" coping skills. I saw it as a spectrum, a collection of steps going upward, and how different activities are different for all of us.

Sounds like real progress to me DR  :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Artemis, I am really glad that someone understands. Thank you for validating and sharing.

Blueberry, glad it was similar enough  :) I am very glad you never puked and struggle to. It is much better for your body. I didn't for very long, and it wasn't my normal go to, but it worked if I absolutely had to eat kind of thing. It was unhealthy and I am always glad when others did not go quite so far in that. My self harm, outside of this, was never very physical compared to other people's either. I had a hard time inflicting much actual pain tbh.

I'm so glad we connected over this issue Artmeis, it seems it is helping you and I and will others too  :cheer:   Maybe once you are feeling better you  might consider sharing your article with us, it sounds really interesting. 

So I'm beginning with some mantra's which are "I am not fat, I have fat,"(love turning negative msges around),  "No shaming" and "Small changes"  Simple, easy to remember but powerful messages I can give myself.   I am also going to read one of the books you recommended and there is an Inner Child workbook I am going to order to see if maybe that will help me to reach that part of my IC that is still hurting. 

More to follow :)

QuoteI'm long since 'pretty good' with it actually. Much more accepting of it and of me than when I weighed 30 kg less. But then sometimes I'm blindsided by what other people think and say. It's not their business but it's not always easy to ignore. Or just knowing how important physical health is for some friends and I feel ashamed in advance for when they next see me and see I've gone up another size.

On a desert island I'd be good with my weight and size (but not with all other physical aspects of myself that were shamed a lot by FOO) but not in society all the time. I try to remember that on particularly good days moodwise, I feel less fat than on bad days moodwise, though physically there is no difference.

In this you hit the nail on the head here for me BB.  I just don't want to see anyone any more who will look at me and think "Wow, she's really put on weight" or new people who will think "She's quite heavy."   I have created a bit of a dessert island for myself because I just don't want to feel  shame or anger over what I look like any more.  I don't want to feel "less than" anyone simply because of my weight.  I don't want to feel bad any more because I am a good person, I am NOT weak or lazy or any of the other stigmatizing things people think/say about those of us who are over/underweight. Something is driving me and I just haven't figured it out or gotten the right kind of help to deal with it .... yet.  I think if I could reach into the pain and process it, this need to overeat would die off naturally.

I can relate to under-eating and purging because of needing to be perfect Elph.  I did everything possible to be perfect and just couldn't keep the weight of so that sparked some real depression and a deep sense of failure I must say.  At some point I felt too tired and broken to keep on trying with my overeating.  It's why I hide out, well hid out - I guess now I am outing myself  :)     

When I think back, I can see when and why I began to feel tired and broken.  It really began to rain on me starting in 2005 when I graduated with my doctorate after years of hard work only to end up being diagnosed with ovarian cancer a year later. I made it through surgery and chemo only to end up soon after with increasing physical pain and restriction due to osteoarthritis.  I then found out I have Complex PTSD and went through a bout of drinking and a breakdown in 2013-14. It is no wonder I felt too tired and broken to keep fighting my overeating, I was and anyone would be.  I realize in looking back how much I have had on my plate (figuratively) and that food literally helped me through it all.   I also realize I I have been waaaaaay too hard on myself and also that this is a good place to start, with more self-compassion and really embracing the idea that over/under eating is not a moral failure, it is a symptom of pain that has not been dealt with.  :yes:

:grouphug:

Kizzie, it is my goal to come back and reply more but I wanted to make sure I got to this when I saw it.


I am so glad you understand the under/over eating in that way. You frame it so well when you put it as a side effect of unresolved pain. It truly is that.

Sending many hugs  :hug: :grouphug:

Thank you for sharing so openly. I love to see you "outing yourself". It is an inspiration

Love the mantras Kizzie. Yeah I can share it but it destroys my anonymity haha. So that's the only drawback. Not that I really care at this point...but maybe better for now as I still fall prey to paranoia/hypervigilance.  :hug:

love the mantras, kizzie.  sounds like you have a plan.  good for you.    :hug:  :hug:  :hug:

I'm in the same boat as Elphanigh.
But I am on the verge of tears reading this.

 :hug: :hug:

Kizzy, I can relate. Overeating is partly a symptom of pain. It's also a cycle that happens with dieting and weight loss/gain and body shame. The science is conclusive, when we restrict something, we end up binging. The idea that we 'shouldn't' eat something tends to make us eat a lot more of it. It's a vicious cycle. It's exhausting. For me, at times, food IS the ONLY or one of the only real comforts/pleasures in my life. How many of us carry shame about pleasure? As a survivor of sexual trauma, I know I do, but all abuse leads to this thing where joy and pleasure get cognitively mixed with shame in some way.

Plus, in today's world where the media tells us what to eat/what not to eat, how to look/how not to look and all that horrible stigma you are talking about, we have forgotten that we are SUPPOSED to enjoy eating, it's one of the greatest pleasures of life. Just some food for thought.  :bigwink:

"Food for thought" - love it Artemis  ;D

I remembered reading a book way back when in one of the many programs I attended called "When Food is Love" by Geneen Roth - have you read anything by her?  I seem to remember it did resonate but it wasn't recommended by the program, instead one of the other participants very generously gave us each a copy of it.  The msge of the program we were attending was eat less, exercise more so I drifted way from it like so many others.   I could only do that for a bit and then something inside would take over and I would be off to the races eating for comfort again.  Failure again  :'(

I realized after writing my earlier post that I was able to stick to the various programs for a while because I tapped into the perfectionism I was gifted with by my family.  Hard to attain and sustain though when food represents comfort.  I have always had this sometimes sad, sometimes angry voice in the back of my mind saying, "Do not look at me like I am weak and lack will power, you know nothing about me. I survived abuse, cancer and two knee replacements; quit smoking and drinking; had and raised a wonderful child all while getting my doctorate and moving all as the spouse of a military member; and on and on so don't judge me."  It hurts and brings a lot of shame and feelings of being a failure to the surface. 

I guess I created an island because I didn't want to feel that any more. Now that I am talking about it finally, what is starting to become clear is that one thing I need is much more compassion from self and others  :yes:

Quote from: Kizzie on April 03, 2018, 06:48:10 PM
I realized after writing my earlier post that I was able to stick to the various programs for a while because I tapped into the perfectionism I was gifted with by my family. 

Exactly. But perfectionism is very strenuous, so being perfect with my eating, and cooking healthily (ie. at all instead of eating out of a packet) meant I had no energy for anything else. Well, I looked after my Little Furries. But otherwise there was tons of 'normal' stuff where I simply had no energy. Collapse while washing dishes.   :stars: :stars: at how bad it was.

For me in addition e.g. in inpatient T where I'd stick to the meal regulations for  the eating disorder group, "I'm a good girl." I do what I'm meant to. But it's never worked really long term. Maybe months, or even a couple of years, but the healthier I get emotionally-speaking, the harder it has become to desist from over-eating. (Or also not eating or drinking tea/water). BTW 'meant to' is a lot like 'should' which doesn't work any more for me.

Quote from: Kizzie on April 03, 2018, 06:48:10 PM
what is starting to become clear is that one thing I need is much more compassion from self and others  :yes:

Me too! Compassion from others - I get a lot of that here, and from other places IRL. But compassion from self - I'm working on it. T reminds me quite often in a nice, friendly way.  ;)

Kizzie, have a :bighug: with tons of compassion.

I just popped back in to move my posts but you have replied so I'll leave it.  I don't want to get off on my track as I think taking up more or less space in terms of body size is an important topic to dig into.  Sorry I hijacked BB!  Tks for the compassion and hugs, much appreciated  :)

I didn't even think of it as a hijack, Kizzie. It's more: we've presently got 2 threads running on eating disorders. Apparently we need them. They're striking a chord atm.

Your post helped me realise things too.  :hug:  :)

Having said that, you may be right that "taking up more or less space in terms of body size" is an important topic to dig into. I hadn't thought about that - that it could be good to feel a bit further into issue or also see who else on the forum might feel affected.

It's a pretty deep topic for me. I realised that further upthread when I made the connection to my SH, with part of that being 'not existing', chipping away at myself bit by bit in a way nobody is meant to notice. I wasn't meant to exist according to FOO but nobody outside FOO was meant to notice anything was awry in any way and they might have if my SH method had been a bit more obvious. Especially FOO might have noticed and ridiculed and harangued. So better for nobody to notice. So just chip away, gram by gram, hour by hour.

 :hug: :hug: to you Sceal.

I am so glad that we are all beginning to talk about this. Everything that you both say has resonated with me. Although I am not quite as good about opening up about my own experiences with it.  :disappear: It is so important to talk about these things, and it is amazing to read people that get it. The attachment to trauma of the eating disorder or food issue makes it different sometimes, it is good to see others connecting it to their trauma. Makes me feel like I can draw the same line with mine.

I was anorexic/bulimic in a weird combination for several years in high school (although I was already naturally thin and athletic) I still struggle sometimes with limiting behaviors food wise. However I have grown to stress eat in the last few years, it was a new  not so great skill. I am finding it is just as unhealthy as not eating was... I have been trying to tackle but unable to really work on it. I did well for a month, but then life really exploded so the bad habits started again.

Anyways now that I have also hijacked a little... thank you both for opening up this topic

Interesting Artemis that you bring up how stopping ourselves from eating with pleasure at all makes it worse. It's mostly controlled, but I still eat out of stress at times.

We're human after all, and we were evolved to make the most out of sugar since in ancient times, it was very difficult to find them. Now in modern times, we have an overabundance of sugar, and that can affect most of us. Back when my eating was less controlled, I often made 2 days of the week a total binge day with whatever I wanted. It made it easier to control the rest of the week too, but now it's controlled enough I don't need a specific binge day.

Even outside food, there's a lot to say about how guilt isn't the best motivator. Lots of business, parenting and teacher's books who emphasize that motivating through shame makes it easier for people to retaliate or not follow what's agreed on works. Because when it's through guilt only, there's no reward whether I follow my cravings or not. When I actually take pride on accomplishing something well with how I eat, or at least trying to, motivation was easier.

 :hug: to Sceal too.

BB, would you be OK if we merged your thread with mine and titled it "Discussion about Over/Under Eating" or something similar, sticky it and add a note at the top of the first post to the effect that hijacks are not an issue and members are free to talk about any aspect they'd like?  You asked about a separate sub-forum but the board is already too big and there are so many comorbidities unfortunately.

 :grouphug:

It's certainly a good idea to not add a separate sub-forum! Sticky-ing is good as you've done. Let me think on the merging. Sometimes ideas need to drift thru my brain and float in my subconscious for a bit before I can feel a definite 'yes'. I'll not be back on for another 10 hours or so anyway. By then I'll prob. know.

Okey dokey, sounds good.

Could you wait till tomorrow please Kizzie? I'm sure in the end we will merge these two but there's something bothering me and I'd like to allow whatever it is to resurface and be dealt with. It's an IC thing. I have T tomorrow anyway in case I don't get further on my own.

Yes, go ahead and merge the two Kizzie, when you have time.

OK, the threads are merged so it will be a little disjointed. 

Again, for anyone posting to this thread please know it is OK to talk about any eating issue you may have without worrying about hijacking

I feel ready to share (I hope). ( I might delete this post later on, I am not sure if it's too soon for me to talk about this. So I ask very carefully and kindly not to be given advice on this topic. I just need support and understanding, or questions. And I hope it's okay I am open about that. )
I got what is called "unspecified eating disorder", which is something that is rarely if ever talked about. It's hard for me to explain it, because most of the time I eat too little (apparently?) while feeling it's too much, or feeling it is the wrong sort of food entirely. And the constant feeling that I'm doing something wrong, and I can never get it "right". And sometimes I eat too much, and I think it is qualified as actually too much. I can eat til I get sick.
I also eat to drown out emotions, although I don't realize it while it's happening. I don't realize that is what is going on - most likely because I'm in so little contact with my emotions. I'm having a hard time to making sense of this in my own head - so I'm fine if someone else is confused by this too.
I rarely feel hungry anymore, I notice I get worn out, my head gets empty or I'm suddenly nauseus. That's when I realize it's been too long since I last ate. So I try to eat regularily. If I eat breakfast at 08, I need to have lunch at 12-13. And so forth. My T wrote in a letter to the hospital recently that my eating disorder is a result of my trauma's.
We've never discussed that. She might be right, in fact - I am fairly certain she's right. But it surprised me to read it, when we hadn't talked about the food in connection with trauma.
There is alot of shame. Mountains upon mountains of shame.

Hey, Sceal, it's really OK, good even  :thumbup: that you're open about what you need.

I actually think I do understand roughly what you're talking about. I don't feel confused. I certainly understand about the constant feeling that I'm doing something wrong. In my case it comes in different contexts, that's all.

I'm sorry you feel so much shame. I know the feeling too. If it's not too much or inappropriate  :hug: :hug:

If there's anything in this post of mine which bothers you, tell me, I'll remove it.

There's nothing in your post that bothers me, dear Blueberry!
and the hugs are so extremely welcome right now  :hug: :hug:

Sceal, I can totally relate. My ED and food issues don't fit neatly under any diagnosis. Plus, they totally shift and change. Sometimes I'm eating too little thinking it's too much, I used to do this and purge it some years ago. Then sometimes truly eating too much. Then not at all. It's just all over the place for me. It's totally shame based, you nailed it on the head. I think that not eating really helped me keep myself in an even more extreme state of dissociation as well. It's numbing. Over eating feels more like addiction/self medication kind of a thing for me. It's compulsive like. It's all so complicated.

Sceal and artemis, I understand exactly what you are talking about.  I have always had a problem with food, but not like a definable eating disorder.  Actually,  I think I am scared of food, because it was used to control me so much by my nm. I find it hard to know if I am hungry or not, I eat something then feel anxious that it was the wrong thing or I feel too full or it will make me ill.  This then feeds into my vomiting phobia. At its most simple level,  it comes down,  I think, to the way if I said I was hungry,  nm would tell me that that wasn't possible because she was not hungry. If I didn't want to eat, I was told I had to because she had cooked it, it was lovely and the whole family were hungry and enjoying it! 

I have improved a lot since being nc with FOO,  but the issue is still very much there and, in fact, it is something that we have just started to address in EMDR therapy.

This is a huge area within trauma, I have read, and our difficulties seem to make perfect sense within the cptsd framework.

I will just ask, if you don't mind, but does anybody have an issue with food smells? I feel as if I really over react to food smells. They can cause flashbacks,  but a food smell I can cope with one day,  can cause such distress another day, that I can't tolerate it and won't eat it.

Thank you so much for talking about this. As ever, we realise that we are not alone in these things and that really helps.

Libby

sceal, just sending you love and hugs, and letting you know i'm with you. 

So brave of you Sceal to talk about something that causes you mountains and mountains of of shame   :hug:   I feel a little braver when you and others post (which is not to suggest you can't take the post down if you need/want to), so tk you and everyone who has been so open.  :grouphug:

I've been thinking about feeling driven to overeat and I suspect the toxins released by the trauma that resides in us may have a lot to do with this and maybe with feeling hungry then not, smells bothering us one day and not so much the next, etc.  In other words I don't think it's all psychological, there's a strong physiological component as well.  Excess cortisol comes to mind for example.  Trauma causes changes in us not only emotionally but physically and for any of us with CPTSD, any program/treatment must take this into account. In all of the programs I went to I never felt like any hit the mark in this respect.  I just always felt like the message was I needed to have more willpower/persistence/whatever.  :doh:

I watched a documentary a while back about a woman with anorexia and she had tried everything to no avail until she found a doctor who suggested deep brain stimulation.  Quite literally it was about saving her life at that point so it's not for everyone by any means.  It took a year but she now eats normally.  Anyway, it stuck with me because to some extent because I feel that my drive to eat is similar to how she felt the drive not to eat (albeit much, much less so obviously), Abstinence hasn't worked like it did for me with smoking and drinking  so I'm not sure it's an addiction so much as some parts in my brain are suppressed and others overactivated.   :Idunno:   I'm not sure what would help with this, maybe a range of tools from mindfulness to neurofeedback?  :Idunno:  Just noodling here  :)

I am humbled by the support. Thank you all! Too much for me to reply to for now.

But Kizzie, I'd like to say something to you. You say abstinence hasn't worked with food as it does with smoking and drinking. First of all, It's an incredible feat that you managed to quit those as they are so addictive. But food however, is something we actually can't quit. We don't need smoking and drinking alcohol, but we do need food. Our bodies will work against our willpower and stubbornness, and eventually we will have to eat - or we die.

A personal trainer told me recently that when people start to diet, or they want to change their way with food... they try to fix everything at once - and in the long run that's just impossible. It's too much work, it requires too much of us. And when we have other things that we're trying to work through as well, it just... it wont work. So it is better to focus on changing (not fixing) one thing. One small thing, and build it into a habit overwriting the one you want to change. So when the stress hits you revert back to the new habit, not the old.

Something I was taught at uni last year was that in order to create a new habit, or change the way we think about our habits we use enormous amounts of resources to avoid the old habit. And the willpower that we use gets depleted, it only last for so long. And our willpower is strongest if the brain has high glucose levels to work with, once those get depleted (as they do quite quickly) our ability to resist temptation becomes weakened.

I just realized I had alot to say afterall. It's not easy any of this, and neither is it simple.
:grouphug:

The first book I ever read on eating disorders were about them all, in one book.  The book theorized that binge eating, bulimia, and anorexia are all related in some way.  Additionally, whenever I read any of the symptoms of CPTSD, eating disorders are often listed.

I agree Dee, I think it's all linked, and that really helped

I did read somewhere that salt, sugar, carbs and fats light up the brain much like drugs so perhaps I am dealing with an addiction to the pleasure these provide me, especially for younger me who still seems to need more/different comfort.  Add to that hormones and chemicals like cortisol that are released when we're stressed and it's a very powerful push, which I guess is that feeling of being driven I experience.   :Idunno:   

So small steps and new habits Sceal, I agree. Fortunately younger and adult me do enjoy love salads and vegetables so I have started finding different ways of making these (chopping, cooking,  experimenting) and integrating them into meals to a greater extent.  So far so good, we are enjoying it. Having fun was how i enticed her out a few years ago so might as well go with what works.  :yes:

I find it hard to choose a small step and stick to it. Just that. Because on the days I feel better I add more goals.
I've had to deal with a bucket load of body shame this week after going through various skills for DBT to calm me down from being in a crisis. I was under the tolerance window when I was doing these that it just messed up my system. And it's still lingering. It's affecting my eating too. Not that I go out of the way to eat less or different. I just had breakfast and then a minor snack if you could call it that instead of lunch.. and not dinner until 7 hours later. It's not good for me. I'm struggling to deal with the food and the body shame at the same time.

Quote from: Sceal on April 12, 2018, 08:20:42 PM
I find it hard to choose a small step and stick to it. Just that. Because on the days I feel better I add more goals.

Sounds very familiar.

Combined in my case with emotional growth in all directions all at once. So I have all these different impulses for changing things in my immediate life. It always feels as if I'll shut down these changes if I restrict my eating. So NTS the feeling of restriction is the problem. Topic for Screen Processing or therapy next time I'm there.

It might well be a biggie because when I was growing up FOO did quite a lot emotionally to shut me and my life energy down. Actually all the different kinds of abuse shut me and my life energy down. I'm noticing that rn as part of me goes numb. Or in part I shut my own life energy down as a child / teenager in order to make myself as small and non-noticeable as possible.

Restricting anything seems as if I'm restricting myself. Need to work on emotions and maybe even physical body believing that's not the case. Cuz cognitive belief is not enough for me to change my eating habits.

Quote from: Kizzie on April 12, 2018, 08:13:59 PM
I did read somewhere that salt, sugar, carbs and fats light up the brain much like drugs so perhaps I am dealing with an addiction to the pleasure these provide me

I read that a long time ago about sugar, but unfortunately it's not something I feel I can give up atm. When I restrict my sugar intake, I always up my fat intake especially in the form of cheese.

Dee and Kizzie, I think it's all linked too, all these eating disorders.  I used to be pretty much an undereater, except when I went on an eating binge and would eat way too much at one meal. But then I'd go and restrict myself again. I think I've posted this somewhere before on here - I had what they refer to here in inpatient treatment as an anorexic lifestyle. I restricted myself a lot, I didn't allow myself things, even quite healthy things like a set of water colour paints. I thought stuff like "Why do you need those?? You've got pencil crayons, that's enough!" Although at the time I had no financial problems, there was no reason to restrict myself. I did buy them for myself but I remember the struggle.

In inpatient treatment in the eating disorder group they often made a correlation between eating problems / ensuing problems and emotional issues. This evening I had digestive problems and feeling a bit nauseous. So I ask myself "What else can't you digest?" Idk if there's always a correlation, probably not. There could be a plain old physical cause in some people's cases. But tonight in mine? There are quite a few emotional issues I'm having trouble dealing with and digesting.

I'm weird in my eating habits. I like some super healthy stuff. Like I'll wander into the garden and pick fresh spring weeds and have a big salad, maybe with a bit of fruit added for colour and taste. Then another time I'll eat a bunch of bland-tasting, industrial sugar-filled whatevers. Atm I'd be the first to admit that they don't even taste good.

I feel very fat today. This morning I was active, doing volunteer work for a group I've been a member of for years. It felt good. But when I got home again I couldn't somehow think what I could do other than eat or sleep, so I ate and then went to bed for a while. Though there are tons of things I could have done. But no, binary choice. Eat or give up and go back to bed.

Then I remembered I tend to feel bad and spaced out after FOO contact. I did have a little of that recently and I have felt a bit spaced out all day. So feeling bad due to FOO contact could have been what 'pushed' me to eat. It was of course my decision to actually eat. There are stops along the way. I feel as if I have no will power atm.

Sceal- omg I am in love with your trainer! You lucked out, most of them really push people into dieting/food shaming. They sound really competent and like they know the research! Kudos to them and you for getting support for healthy lifestyle. Proud of you. :hug:

Blueberry. I've been feeling really fat too. It's a crappy feeling for me, like I'm not good enough/don't deserve to live even. Deep shame. I'm dealing with so much right now, not feeling like I deserve care or support because, I realize, that's the environment I grew up in/am living in. FOO contact is really triggering, esp for the food issues. My cycle is trigger, overeat, then beat myself up/shame self for not having willpower. In a way I am abusing myself for them...with food. Nothing to feel bad about, just something to notice. And honestly it feels safer sometimes for me to be 'fat'. Like I'm less shiny or less of a target to predators. Like my family. To the narc M who is obsessed with her looks and I'm def a threat. I think that's a big part of why I've been overeating. And what I survived last fall with DV and assaults. Of course, what's actually attractive is confidence, but because of societal stigma I feel less confident when I feel fat or gain weight. Something to think on anyways.

The truth is you are doing the best you can. Proud of you :hug:

I have been overeating a lot since I moved back in with M, and gaining weight. To hide. To self soothe, to shame myself and prove I'm unworthy of love and support and resources. But I just filled out an app for a grant that may be awarded to me for psychiatric hospitalization which I could really use a long term stay at a trauma specialized one. And I finally called this crisis center here that's amazing, they deal with sexual trauma/rape. But they are so good and I should get some counseling and she said there is safe housing program I can apply for. Please pray or send good vibes out for me for this. I have to get out of this environment to heal. They just can't be supportive whether they are abusive or just in their own denial/ignorance about my illness.

What I'm about to write is probably pretty obvious. However. Eating my feelings down doesn't work because it leaves me feeling as if I'm somewhat emotionally stable but then when some added stress comes along or maybe a few stressors, everything crumbles. (Of course there are other reasons why eating feelings down doesn't work but this was my lightbulb moment this morning.)

Quote from: artemis23 on April 16, 2018, 12:04:15 AM
Sceal- omg I am in love with your trainer! You lucked out, most of them really push people into dieting/food shaming. They sound really competent and like they know the research! Kudos to them and you for getting support for healthy lifestyle. Proud of you. :hug:

I wish she was mine, but her fee is almost as big as my monthly income. So sadly I can't afford her. But I had a free consultation with her, and it helped at least a little bit. She gave me some things to think about.

Next week I'm going to the hospital to get information in regards to wl surgery. I'm scared. About the food.

We're at Page 5 and just to keep things manageable I'm going to lock this thread and open a Part 2 so it isn't quite as unwieldy to load and read.