On my other thread, we started talking about attaching too much and not attaching enough with people during sex. I think this attachment issue in general is an important thing to talk about. Maybe we can learn from each other.
Like other people here, I have had too much and too little bonding with various things, situations, and people in life. Inappropriate bonding strategies. Inappropriate Oxytocin release patterns. I am working my tail off try to correct this in myself. I am working to try to re-calibrate my pattern of bonding.
You can see that problems with bonding result in a lot of crazy, seeming illogical behaviors---by us and others. It is like having a beautiful, wild pony inside of us, gotta find a way to tame it---or a lot of destruction will result.
I used to grasp too much to things and people. Now I am suprised how I turned the switch to the other side, and not grasp at all.
My beloved therapist said the other day that he thought I was a feral person. I appreciated his honesty and candor. I am a feral person. I was not insulted.
So now, I am in a detachment phase. I don't think it will last forever, it is more of a neural remodeling process, methinks.
attachment. That is my biggest issue. I have three sons and my youngest is a daughter (18). She is very VERY close to me and I am very cognizant of the fact that I did NOT have a mother/daughter role model as to what is appropriate and what is not. My daughter will call me and put me on speaker to say hi to her friends (she's a freshman in the dorms and has a group of 12 friends who are close). My T thinks this is off base. It sent me into a panic because, I love my daughter--but my concern is NOT attaching to HER. (I found out they do this with all the moms but I'm the fav right now because I bought them a Christmas dinner). I can go weeks without talking to my sons and it's not an issue at all.
I've been celibate for 12 years. I left my ex a year earlier, but we never divorced (Long story).
I had a problem with WAYYYY over attaching to my therapists--this neediness that is beyond description that really just re-injured me.
After three days of sincere soul searching, I realized I am gay. I've been out for 13 years. After breaking up with my girlfriend (physically abusive relationship), I chose to not date until my daughter was 16 because my ex physically abused my kids for the word 'fag.' By the time my daughter turned 16, I was sick and fat from the medications I was on and the truth is, I wouldn't want to date me. So now I'm just waiting until I have something to give in a relationship.
So attachment to me, is the key issue for me. If I do attach, it's wildly dysfunctional and outrageous. THAT is what I'm currently afraid of in my current therapeutic relationship. (Let me clarify, now that I KNOW I'm gay, I don't confuse the attachment with sexual desire, so it's not as confusing as it was before)
I have NO idea what a healthy, bonded relationship feels like. I wouldn't recognize it if it was thrown right in my face.
Amamiame, I totally understand where you are coming from, and I very much empathize.
:hug:
It seems like regulating the bonding system has to do with regulating the fight or flight system. From what I read, we need to experience a veeeeery safe relationship (maybe with a therapist or somewhat else) in order to dampen the f & f reaction.
I have read that attachment problems can be alleviated and made better as adults. It is not easy.
Like I said before, I am kind of in a detachment phase, as I used to be much more clingy. I have the sensation that I am being smothered in many, but not all respects. Like my personal space violation trigger gets tripped a lot. It is like I have gone from completely disorganized attachment to avoidant, which is a step "up" in the lesser of two evils.
Here is a paper about establishing secure attachments.
http://undividedjournal.com/2012/11/29/the-ultimate-secure-base-healing-insecure-attachment-in-the-nondual-field/
Quote from: marycontrary on February 13, 2015, 03:05:44 PM
It seems like regulating the bonding system has to do with regulating the fight or flight system. From what I read, we need to experience a veeeeery safe relationship (maybe with a therapist or somewhat else) in order to dampen the f & f reaction.
It is like I have gone from completely disorganized attachment to avoidant, which is a step "up" in the lesser of two evils.
Mary, both of those statements are very profound to me. I'm Avoidant now too and never thought of it as a step up, but you are right! And yeah, it does have to do with fight/flight. Most definitely!
Thank you so much for those thoughts... it's so right on target! :hug: :applause:
Ana, thanks for such the sweet words :hug:
I can't help but feel that this is a temporary phase in development, if we keep working through it. You know, it is kinda like going on an elimination diet when a person has a food allergy. It is an epic pain in the *, because you remove wheat, soy, corn milk, nuts, etc. etc...THEN you slow reintroduce each group one by one until you discover the offending agent.
Disorganized attachment is the lowest level of development, I have read. It is about the level of a 2-3 year old. Avoidant is about a 5 year old in emotional development. I think that the next leap is into secure attachment, if we condition our fight or flight reflexes properly. I have no idea how long this takes, but I feel it getting nearer for myself.
mary, thanks so much for that link. It's dense and difficult in places and I'll have to revisit it, but I identify with so much. One of the (many) points that rang true was acknowledgement mindfulness techniques can play, and the universal distinction between feeling secure with other people and secure within ourselves. Of course they are inextricably linked, and horrible early parenting damages both, but the fact remains that each of us need to "find" our own centers as individuals. Trust is the core. Maybe if we learn to trust ourselves...
Sometimes better adjusted and engaged people often strike me as incredibly shallow, though I envy their apparent ease. They seem to be able to avoid the deepest existential pain, or at least aren't paralyzed by it. I think I have always thought too much, felt too much...at least that was the accusation. It feels like an inexhaustible (and exhausting!) struggle with past and present. The security I seek, inside and out, materially and emotionally, seems increasingly out of reach. I worry about "inflicting" myself on others, while at the same time feeling greatly wounded by their insensivity. Your remark about the chance to grow (and for me it must be without a therapist) is just so very heartening. Thank you.
Coda, that is some really good stuff. :hug: You really put those words in just right, and it rang true to me also. I felt exactly like you before, especially with that "inflicting" thing....I realized that it was just an illusion. Like you, it is me that felt offended and drained by people's profound lack of empathy. But you know what i found? There are a few people around that actually appreciate a person's sensitivity and just a small handful of people like this can replace thousands of fair weather friends.
Thank you for your kind words.
Like C. said, I am trying to fall in love with myself. I got dressed up and when to a concert and symphony (both free). No less than 13 males greeted me when walking the 3.8 miles to the places. I loved it I am practicing eye contact and greeting people on the street (it is culturally expected here). I had some fresh juice and had a great time. So I took myself on a date. You realize you are not inflicting as terribly as one thinks one does. But I do feel a detachment right now, no doubt.
Coda; that is me as well. I wrote this week in my journal that I have to 'protect' people from me in order for me to be safe. What a paradox that is. And, personally, I think that is where the worst of the worst pain comes from.
Others just don't understand. There's a song by Avril Levine called "Nobody's Home." and another called "Take Me Away." They are sort of my mascot songs. Hope you enjoy them!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eLfvdeInFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao70O2FuJ_U
Before discovering the book on CPTSD I read a lot about attachment types and discovered that I tend toward an "anxious" attachment. In a serious relationship I used to panic at the slightest problem and assume the worst. My most recent relationship allowed me to practice self-calming and dealing with EF over what to non-traumatized people would not have seemed so serious. With the help of T., CBT and reading I was able to weather my EF's and reconnect with BF which helped me to not become so anxious with the next trigger and calm myself more quickly.
I'm pretty sure that my father has an avoidant attachment style and my mother has an anxious one. What a toxic mix. My exH is disorganized. My previous BF's were usually disorganized or avoidant. I think my recent BF actually had a more normal, healthy attachment style.
Maybe we need another thread on falling in love with ourselves? haha I like the concept of falling in love b/c of the action that it requires. I can't just just sit back and hope that it happens. I love your description of your date with yourself Mary. When I think and act in this way it does contribute to my happiness and it also seems to feel compassionate b/c I accept that I may not feel love for myself, I may feel insecure but that's ok cause I'm working on it! ;)
I like to cook myself a nice meal, dress up and do anything lol! a movie, a concert, etc. I met someone who sends herself birthday, mother's day, and valentine cards. Actually selects, signs, and posts them in the mail, sweet!
Very interesting thoughts and experiences related to attachment.
I wonder if I'm still disorganized attachment? I'll have to do some research.
My attachments are one extreme or another... either I'm extremely attached instantaneously to someone, (this only happens with intimate partners... no such thing as "casual sex" for me) or I could care less if I never talk to them. Mostly the latter. It's not a feeling of animosity, it's just total complete apathy.
The weird thing is how my behavior conflicts with the attachment feelings. I rarely ever get flat-out rejected by an intimate partner; it's usually me cutting ties because something about the situation becomes intolerable to me, and I feel powerless to change it, so I don't even try. The last time this happened, the guy I dated before I met R, I recently thought how strange that I was SO heartbroken for SO long, but I never even once asked him to change or correct the thing I saw as a deal breaker. I chewed off my leg and ran for my life, (figuratively) and then literally contemplated suicide. It makes no sense whatsoever. The guy probably never had any idea, and probably even wondered how I could be so cold and never see or hear from me again.
With female friends, there are a couple who reach out to me once in a while, but I never initiate. I am grateful when they do, and I always respond, but they are probably getting tired of the one-sided nature, and I hear from them less and less. And I don't care. :-\
Quote from: CodaI worry about "inflicting" myself on others, while at the same time feeling greatly wounded by their insensivity.
Yes, that, exactly. I didn't think anyone else ever felt that way. I used to either keep the h*ll away from people, or fling myself at them and tell them aaaall about my life story, desperately seeking help. Later, I began to realize that it's okay to make friends... but once I had them, I kind of didn't know what precisely to do with them. It became this scary, unpredictable thing. I usually withdrew. That's probably disorganized attachment?
It's good to know that becoming avoidant is actually a step up... I'm avoidant now, with a very few exceptions. I'm hoping it will get better once I've exorcized a bit more of the harm my FOO has done.
I'm reading a book called "The Narcissistic Family". It's about families where the children have to fulfill the needs of the parent system. So even if there isn't an actual narcissist involved, the parenting style itself can be narcissistic, either overtly or covertly. An overtly narcissistic family would be a clearly dysfunctional one. A covertly narcissistic family would be one that looks fine on the outside - the kids are fed, no one beats anyone up, no one's drinking or taking drugs. In either case, the kids commonly show symptoms that are usually only found in Adult Children of Alcoholics (http://www.searidgealcoholrehab.com/article-adult-children-of-alcoholics.php).
Yup, that sounds exactly like an attachment issues. And I am also an ACOA.
If there is one thing I cannot forgive the perpetrators for, it is for the destruction of bond formation development. There is nothing that I have lived with that has caused so much suffering.
Well, I am trying to practice.
Wow I didn't expect to see myself in that list... but nearly every behavior matched. ACOA, hmmm...
Same here. That list fit in an overwhelming number of details - but there's no addict in my family, no alcoholic, no nothing. I couldn't explain it at all until I started reading that book.
Cat, I think it might be possible for people to have addict tendencies and behaviors, without any obvious substance in the picture. What do you think?
Could be. My mother is a dutyholic, if such a thing exists. Most probably, that wouldn't have been so bad if there'd been more room for myself in our family. My father was critically ill for many, many years, and that took up almost all the available space. It was like there was an elephant crammed into the room and everyone else had to squeeze themselves into pretzels to fit. Given the circumstances, I simply wasn't important enough to enter into the equation.
So I'm still relating to people as if we were having an emergency: I focus on them, I stay out of their way, I protect them by holding myself back and inflicting as little of me on them as possible, and I protect myself from their (presumably) very short temper by keeping my distance from them.
It's so stinking complicated!!
I grew up with two alcoholic parents. I didn't feel much bonding at all. When I was in my 20s, I was anxious attachment and clingy - I think in early romantic relationships, I was just happy that someone found me loveable and stuck like glue.
Now in middle age, I'm more avoidant. I jumped right over healthy attachment, apparently.
Perhaps I found it was safer this way. Lower expectations, few disappointments. People are scary.
Wow thanks for all of your thoughts, people. Like I said, I think as we heal, it changes around. Yes, i am on the avoidant end, but I am a lot better than I was. I am just now really understanding the magnitude of this in my gut.
Our abusers turned our bonding systems into scrambled eggs...
Yep. I'm seeing more clearly now, that I have that deep, desperate need to be loved, so I *must* have the romantic partner role filled at all times, no matter what. Aside from that, everybody else can come or go or drop dead for all I care. No wonder I don't have any friends!
Wow, there is so much good stuff to chew on here.
C.: Are we related? Ha. I think I have the same parent scenario as you. An avoidant father and an anxious (flipping from hateful to smothering) mother. Until recently, I just ignored that I had attachment issues at all. I just convinced myself that I was an independant woman who didn't a man to get by in life.
Which takes me to what Mary wrote:
QuoteIf there is one thing I cannot forgive the perpetrators for, it is for the destruction of bond formation development. There is nothing that I have lived with that has caused so much suffering
Amen to that. The truth is that despite my delusional belief that I prefer being a lone wolf, I have suffered greatly in this inability to bond with others. It is painful. I am lucky to have one very dear friend who has been just stubborn enough to keep loving me know matter what. I am grateful for the gift of her friendship. I am not bonded with any of my family members and I can't stay in a relationship for longer than 2 years (if I can even call most of them relationships) if or when I do have one. Promiscuity has been prominent in my life with multiple partners most of whom mean little to me accept the promise of warm flesh. I'm just being very honest -- and it makes me kind of sad to actually admit that out loud.
I think "attachment" is an area that will be of great exploration for me on this new journey.
Edited to add: Self-love seems to be of great significance too in moving forward.
Oh, and if I do bond with someone emotionally, it is always to "distant" people (psychologically or geographically) and it's not a healthy attachment. It is like I am purposefully setting myself up to be re-traumatized by their inevitable rejection/dismissal of me.
I prefer keeping folks at a distance. I learned a social skill from someone many years ago where if you ask people about themselves they soak it up and it keeps the focus averted. Rarely do I find someone who reciprocates but when they do I know Ive found a keeper.
Recently a very close friend and I have grown apart and I emailed her twice about how I felt and how much her friendship means to me. She suggested that we get together to talk in response both times so we did. I felt it was in her court as I said what I had to say but neither time did she bring it up!! We have called each other 'family' as we were so close for a few years but she wants to pretend there isn't a problem and I refuse to play that game. She is a fellow trauma survivor so seems conflict is hard for her but she's shared with me in length discussions and conflicts with men she's dated but can't invest in our friendship? Well now we barely talk because I feel hurt that she's not investing. She has just moved in with her boyfriend so I suppose that will take all of her time now. It's tough to have expectations of something like healthy openness and it's also tough to be the only one trying. Seems the pendulum rarely swings in a balanced manner.
What an important thread this is. I went through and re-read everything. I think it is truly at the root of CPSTD. At least, it's at the core of everything I am going through.
Agree. Everything that matters is relational and how we can get healthy with that.
Kizzie; would it be possible to make this a sticky?
Done!
:party:
Wow you guys are awesome! Thank you.
Here are some new realizations about myself that have recently emerged. I have learned rudimentary skills in intimacy and find I can be intimate, but my brain gets tired and I need quiet time. I fully realize my maturity level is that of a small child, but it is a lot better than it was.
I can relate to the brain tiredness. When I'm talking to people, I'm either falling back into my old patterns of behaviour, which means I'm socially hyper-vigilant and over-focussed on them, trying to intuit what to do in order to stay safe (=no abuse, no dismissal, no abandonment). So that's exhausting. Or I'm adopting new patterns of behaviour, good and healthy ones. But those are new, they're still unfamiliar, so I have to focus on them consciously and concentrate. And that's exhausting too. But I guess it'll get easier over time.
Detachment is a form of self-sabotage for me, I think.
I recently started forcing myself to get out of the house, and two weeks in a row I went to a Wednesday morning "between jobs ministries" thing they have at a local church. I made note of my behaviors & interactions, as if I were an anthropologist following myself around, trying to understand social dynamics.
I put on my professional knee-length "jackie o" type of dress, pearls, bring my professional game. I pay attention, take notes, and I am very smiley, happy, friendly, and engaging with everyone I meet. I always converse at length with whoever sits next to me, exchange contact info, and I'm pretty sure we both leave feeling good about the whole thing.
The first time, I ended up getting an interview with a recruiter I met there. I got offered a job, but after doing some math, I decided it just wasn't worth it - the drive was too far, and the pay was too low. So I emailed the (male) recruiter and explained my reasoning. His reply to that email had a distinctly flirtatious tone to it, which disgusted me. OK, that's beside the point, another topic...
But the next time I went, I met a lovely female professional, and we had a wonderful chat, lots in common, etc., but here I am over a week later and I have not followed up with her. Or the other people I met the previous week. I have not checked my LinkedIn messages since Jan or Feb. CLEARLY this is self-sabotage, and I sit in this house day after day, feeling out of touch, and hopeless, (yet more apathetic than anything) and I cannot bring myself to do the most basic essential interactions, not even online from the safety of my home, with people.
Have you noticed how unpredictable and the infrequency of my visits here in OOTS? Kinda the same thing happening that always happens. I make connections, then I let them die of neglect. It's my comfort zone I guess, and I don't know what to do about it. I have close to 100% success rate at killing connections with people in my life. Family, friends, communities, I have nearly zero meaningful ongoing interactions.
The one thing I hear over and over again, from people who are well on their way to recovery from trauma, is how IMPORTANT it is to have a strong support group or community. How can I ever expect to improve, if I have no such thing, and I constantly sabotage every attempt?
Anamiame, I agree, this must be at the core of mine too.
Quote from: voicelessagony2 on March 13, 2015, 03:39:06 PM
Have you noticed how unpredictable and the infrequency of my visits here in OOTS? Kinda the same thing happening that always happens. I make connections, then I let them die of neglect. It's my comfort zone I guess, and I don't know what to do about it. I have close to 100% success rate at killing connections with people in my life. Family, friends, communities, I have nearly zero meaningful ongoing interactions.
:applause:
LOL PERFECT! So me. I do that not only here but IRL as well. :doh:
The problem I am having now, is, I think for the very first time ever in my life, I've ATTACHED to an adult and it scared the livin' CRAP out of me! For me, it's extremely painful because the 'inner children' are SO afraid of getting hurt. I never realized just how painful it could be; but I know you have to go through the pain in order to properly heal.
I still hate it though!
Thanks Mary for starting this thread. It's golden. Related to so much of what has been said. Enjoyed the article you shared. I agree that having a sense of non-duality/connection with All That Is is grounding and helpful. I also agree that it's not the whole "answer" since we live in a relative/relational world and that aspect needs to be addressed and healed as well.
I relate to moving from disorganized to avoidant, and I like seeing it as progress. I think I'm somewhere between avoidant and ambivalent/anxious at this point. It's still so stressful. :stars: I can also relate to not wanting to "inflict" myself on others; protecting others from my inner-pain and trauma. I think I come off as socially capable but a little sad and nervous. I think it's a turn-off to people and that makes me sad because I can't snap my fingers and rid myself of the trauma. There's no "social skill" that will lift that part of the equation. So I feel like I am trying to cultivate friendships and deeper connections but I'm operating with a handicap.
I am also very picky about the people I allow in my life. Perhaps too picky because if I pick up on "character" issues I'm outta there. But, at least in my culture, "character" issues seem to be the norm. What I mean is that people appear to have little integrity relationally, e.g. they don't return calls/texts/emails, they say they want to get together and then are never available, that sort of stuff. It's a real turn-off for me. I feel like I'm reaching out for connection, doing all the work and it comes to nothing. *? Everyone is so busy. It's a crappy culture to try to cultivate friendships in IMHO. Like I say, perhaps I'm too picky/judgmental/have unrealistic expectations of people. Seems I'm attracted to busy/unavailable people. They seem interested in me, but are so rarely available for face-to-face time it's not even worth it. I feel like I'm out-of-sync. Perhaps I'm too serious and not compelling enough.
I think what I'm wondering is: do I have attachment issues? or am I merely feeling the affects of an attachment-challenged culture. Ya know?
Hi Rrecovery, I hear you about the cultural issues. I bet it's both...
Hi C. Yeah both. The culture exacerbates my own issues.
I'm seeing a REALLY nice guy right now who I feel anxiously attached to. It causes somatic symptoms in me. He's 99% sure he'll be moving out-of-state for his next job. Talk about exacerbating anxious attachment :stars:
Ugh...I see how the anxiety from that situation could wiggle it's way in to other areas of your life. At least I find that happens for me, if I have a very big challenge causing an emotion it's like it creates a special set of glasses w/which I start to see other things as well. Also, knowing his leaving seems like it would also fit in with a normal type anxiety about relating and might even be situational as much as an "anxious attachment"...
Thank you for your post - it makes me feel less weirdo :)
I am in a detached phase - it gets lonely but I know within myself it's been healing to 'have time out -
:wave:
I feel I am slowly coming back around and opening to people - I have to go slowly - I haven't been able to rely on my radar for who to make friends with but have identified ( with therapist ) that I don't want to go for the loud / dramatic people anymore but more for the people who have some balance and poise - I feel I'm getting some more balance so am hoping it works out - :)
Yes acoa is also for anyone who identifies with a dysfunctional family - I have been to some meetings and got lots of identification - cried and released - felt really good to be in those meetings
I used to go to ACoA meetings and found a lot of comfort in knowing how many dealt with the same issues I had. The Laundry List, etc., quite helpful...
I thought those meetings were only for people with parents or family members who were alcoholics/addicts. But I looked in to it, and like you said, it's meant to address any/all family dysfunction. Thank you for pointing that out as an option. It's the first F2F group I've come across that most closely responds to the reality of someone w/C-PTSD.
Quote from: C. on April 13, 2015, 06:04:36 PM
Ugh...I see how the anxiety from that situation could wiggle it's way in to other areas of your life. At least I find that happens for me, if I have a very big challenge causing an emotion it's like it creates a special set of glasses w/which I start to see other things as well. Also, knowing his leaving seems like it would also fit in with a normal type anxiety about relating and might even be situational as much as an "anxious attachment"...
Yeah, I think it's both. My body is creating a somatic illness over it - that's the EF facet. I'm also finding that when I try to meditate that I'm in a constant state of low level anxiety, like I'm waiting for the shoe to drop.
Quote from: Anamiame on February 12, 2015, 03:26:12 AM
So attachment to me, is the key issue for me. If I do attach, it's wildly dysfunctional and outrageous. THAT is what I'm currently afraid of in my current therapeutic relationship. (Let me clarify, now that I KNOW I'm gay, I don't confuse the attachment with sexual desire, so it's not as confusing as it was before)
I have NO idea what a healthy, bonded relationship feels like. I wouldn't recognize it if it was thrown right in my face.
Ana, I'm wondering if you think your relationship w your sons models out healthy attachment? You love them, and yet you let them live their life as self confident individuals with lots of freedom and autonomy? I don't know.
Just wanted to mention that recently I found a book for ACoAs that is one of the first (that I am aware of) to link having an alcoholic parent to trauma and attachment issues. It's "The ACOA Trauma Syndrome: The Impact of Childhood Pain on Adult Relationships" by Tian Dayton PhD (see http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/Books.html).
My F was an alcoholic and I went to meetings years ago and like you Wingnut found them helpful. Back then though the emphasis was on dysfunction versus trauma and attachment issues. I always felt like there was a lot missing and there was. I think that moving from characterizing alcoholic homes as dysfunctional and recognizing this instead as traumatic and abusive sheds a lot more light on the needs of the ACoA community. Like those of us with CPTSD, ACoAs need (deserve) greater attention from the mental health community and more treatment options imo. I suspect that the "ACoA trauma syndrome" Dayton talks about is very similar to if not the same as CPTSD actually.
I read that book and found it an interesting blend of information I've read in the past about ACoA and the new information on trauma. I think her role playing practice sounds very powerful. I'm not sure I could do that in the setting that she provides, but I am wondering if it would help to simply talk to a pillow like it was your abuser (and then kick the crap out of it - oops...did I say that???)
Go for it Wingnut lol :pissed: