Forgiveness will set you free...
Forgiving my perps ( I have 2) will somehow help me move on????
I see parents forgive their children's murderer....and yet I could never forgive the wrongs against me. How do they forgive? Why does it help to let their monster know they are relieved of any and all guilt (that they never even felt) by the victim? NO ABUSER DESERVES FORGIVENESS. NO ONE.
I can't understand why forgiveness has to be a part of healing. I don't have forgiveness in me...and so I'm a lesser person ( wow not like I don't feel that way anyway)
I want to SCREAM at every person spouting off the necessity of forgiveness right in their face. The self righteous, all knowing, all healing power of forgiveness. F#$% THAT.
I am angry and feel like cursing every word. Just the idea that forgiveness is a task I have to complete . All it feels like is me selling myself out. My soul was murdered before I had a chance at "normal" life so now I have to forgive That? What kind of CRAP is That?
I longed for the death of my first perp because I just knew I would feel some lift that he was not on this planet any longer. Imagine my surprise when the death only sunk me deeper. Imagine my surprise when I felt worse. Like he got away with an entire life of never being exposed and now he never will.
I just want to know if anyone else here can understand how upset the idea of forgiveness makes me. If forgiveness has helped You, truly than I am so happy for you! I just don't understand it. I know I will never forgive.
hey, mourningme,
to my mind, forgiveness is something individual. some people find it to be releasing/freeing. i'm not one of them.
there are things that have happened in my life that i can accept - they happened, i'm dealing with the consequences. but, at the same time, i don't feel a need to forgive, and won't, unless, somewhere down the road, it seems like a constructive thing for me to do. but, and this is a biggie, as far as i'm concerned, it will have to seem that way to me, and not because it seems that way to others.
this topic has come up often on this forum. many, many people feel like you do. i was always of the mind that i don't have the power to forgive, that such power lies somewhere else. i've given over the whole question of forgiveness to something bigger than me. if that something wants to take on the task of forgiving the abusers in my life, so be it. it's out of my hands, and i'm not concerned about it anymore.
i know that often in 12-step programs, other healing groups, even some therapists, think that personal forgiveness is important to get past the abuse and heal. i don't agree with them (i'm also a therapist, have taken part in many different kinds of groups as a member as well as a leader). i think that we as individuals will find our own way to move on, no matter what form that takes.
i do know that healing can happen without forgiveness, as i've experienced it myself. i believe your anger is a result of these others who demand you 'forgive' are stepping over your own personal boundaries and beliefs about it, and you may even be feeling violated because of it. in my mind, you don't have to do anything you don't feel comfortable doing, including forgiving anyone for anything. you have a right to your own perspective and perception about any and everything.
this, to me, is the beauty of individuality. sending love and a hug full of peace of mind.
I'm with San that forgiveness is an individual need/want and we each have to do what helps us to recover. Anger is important to healing, it helps us protect ourselves and get that Inner Guardian in the ring fighting for us, helping us to set and maintain boundaries, etc. Getting stuck in the anger is not healthy though imo, it keeps us from moving forward at some point.
I can't forgive but I do understand that my parents were dealing with a lot of trauma of their own and somehow that's been enough to take the sting out (i.e., it's not me or anything I did or didn't do), and be able to move past a lot of the anger and bitterness. It's still there to a degree but it has faded into the background more and made room for other things.
Hope this is helpful, if not plse ignore.
Quote from: sanmagic7 on July 08, 2018, 03:28:05 PM
i was always of the mind that i don't have the power to forgive, that such power lies somewhere else. i've given over the whole question of forgiveness to something bigger than me. if that something wants to take on the task of forgiving the abusers in my life, so be it. it's out of my hands
This is how I feel too. My abusers will be judged (or forgiven) by someone or something much bigger than I.
In my grief recovery class, while writing completion letters, I could not use the term 'I forgive'; and I replaced it with their suggestion of 'I acknowledge the things that you did or did not do that hurt me, and I am not going to let them hurt me anymore'. By making that statement I took back my power and was releasing their continued hold on me. They own their actions and I gave them back to them to do with what they will.
I hear you, mourningme. I don't think I can ever forgive my father for abandoning my family, or my mother for the emotional abuse we endured from her afterwards. How do you forgive someone who never acknowledged the harm they did? Who never apologized? Who never changed?
I think forgiveness as an intellectual act is one thing -- but emotionally, it's something else. The type of abuse that causes cptsd is much tougher to forgive than ordinary wrongs. We survivors of cptsd have to first protect ourselves, forgive OURSELVES, and fortify our boundaries against future harm before we can take that big leap to forgive the perpetrators of our long-term suffering.
People with cptsd tend to be tough on ourselves, self-critical. I would recommend extending forgiveness to yourself first -- true acceptance -- before you think about forgiving those who harmed you. Self-forgiveness and acceptance is tough for us, but necessary.
The word and concept of forgiveness is something I tried to figure out, but in the end I realized that for my own peace I just couldn't tolerate the idea of its implications. I'm with those who've had to find alternative means to dispose of the ashes, so to speak.
Referring to ashes reminds me of something I've tried--write little messages (similar to those suggested by MGrizz) and burn them. I like symbolic actions, especially for deeds that are done with but still intolerable. So seeing the hurt, symbolized by the written notes, burst into flame and disappear was something that made it feel more like an actual release than just reciting some bland forgiveness mantra devised by professionals who insist on telling me I have to forgive no matter what. Yeah right... ??? :pissed: :thumbdown:.
One of the words I burn is actually that f word already mentioned. I don't even have a replacement word in mind, just the physical sign of turning it all back, releasing it in a tangible way. I tried so long to understand what the experts said was so necessary. Guess my needs are beyond their well-intended but meaningless formula.
Quote from: woodsgnome on July 08, 2018, 05:47:44 PM
Guess my needs are beyond their well-intended but meaningless formula.
I couldn't agree more.
I've been thinking about forgiveness too for a long time and struggling with it. I guess I eventually gave it up as an empty word, meaningless white noise. I can look up the word in dictionaries but it doesn't mean anything to me. It's just a label. But it may just be me.
Maybe forgiveness is useful for small to medium sized experiences, the sort of ordinary day to day things that are annoying but not that dangerous. It has its limits, though. Big traumas are far beyond the scope of this theory of "forgiving". It tries to flatten them to fit it but it just doesn't work.
I don't forgive my past or current abusers. It's not that I refuse to forgive them because I "hold a grudge" because I guess that's victim blaming. I don't forgive them because paradoxically maybe, forgiveness seems totally unnecessary to me. It's too small, too narrow. It assumes that other people's behavior revolves around me, but some life experiences are too big. They're beyond forgiveness so I let go of forgiveness.
But it's all so hard to discuss. It seems almost a taboo, like social sacrilege to question forgiveness nowadays :Idunno:
And there's an odd ethical pressure added to it, as though doing it makes you a good person whereas not doing it makes you less than. Forgive and you'll recover! Well, that feels more like shame to me. It's cold and unforgiving toward people who are in pain.
And logically :whistling: :Idunno:
If my abuser is a bad person who hurts me over and over, what's the use in forgiving them? Let's say I forgive them but the next day they'll hurt me again because it's their habit. I'll still end up with continual harm, and I'd need to keep forgiving non-stop. There would never be an end to it. My forgiving wouldn't change their behavior, or take away my pain.
If they're not bad, then making huge mistakes and being dumb is a big part of the human experience. It's what we're all made of.
I care about some of the people who hurt me, the ones who are hurt but not evil. I see no contradiction between these two things, non-forgiveness and caring. I can feel both at the same time. I can even end up with NC with them because I care.
Actually, I wouldn't
want to forgive the really big things.
I think forgiveness can be dangerous if it tries to normalize the abnormal. I know I stayed in abusive relationships far too often in my life because I believed I was supposed to be forgiving. But violence and abuse, they're immoral. They don't just cause me pain. The same actions would cause cptsd in anyone who would have to experience them. I think people are complex enough to feel pain and also care simultaneously. I know I am. There's no need to deny pain to feel other things alongside it. It's maybe bigger than forgiveness and more nuanced.
Besides, trauma is real. So is violence. I would ideally want them both to never, ever be normal. We need to be able to say "This is not normal, so normal theories don't apply here either. Extreme measures needed. This is the twilight zone."
Maybe?
I have no idea what forgiveness is in the context of repeated, severe, and damaging abuse over years, by those we most needed to be able to trust.
I understand that if someone acknowledges what they have done, acknowledges the harm and pain they have caused, expresses regret and shame about their actions, is actively working on the reasons they behaved as they did, guarantees via a promise that they will never act in this way again, and additonally asks for my forgiveness, without the expectation that this is something that will magically be granted, then I may over time trust that person again and the realtionship may be healed. This seems like genuine forgiveness, but I've never experienced it.
What I have experienced in some cases, with some family members is letting go of my active, ongoing anger but not my distrust, keeping whatever distance is necessary to keep myself safe, and living with a cognitive dissonance that is damaging to me, but which allows me to live with love that I am unable or unwilling to let go of.
What I think is dangerous and something I have done in the past, is "forgive" and accept ongoing but more covert abuse in the form of denial, victim-blaming, scapegoating and gaslighting, and live in a kind of crazy-land of denial about it all. Included in this toxic cocktail is a kind of patholgical gratitude when the person has caused me great harm deigns to be kind to me for any period of time. This, to me is the essence of trauma-bonding.
Quote from: sanmagic7 on July 08, 2018, 03:28:05 PM
hey, mourningme,
to my mind, forgiveness is something individual. some people find it to be releasing/freeing. i'm not one of them.
there are things that have happened in my life that i can accept - they happened, i'm dealing with the consequences. but, at the same time, i don't feel a need to forgive, and won't, unless, somewhere down the road, it seems like a constructive thing for me to do. but, and this is a biggie, as far as i'm concerned, it will have to seem that way to me, and not because it seems that way to others.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
Yes! All I ever hear about recovery is that word and it just seems like another continuation of dissmissing and invalidating my experiences just to placate the people around me who are uncomfortable with my abuse. Thank you for mentioning you are a therspist but dont agree with this. It really helps.
Quote from: Kizzie on July 08, 2018, 04:09:55 PM
Anger is important to healing, it helps us protect ourselves and get that Inner Guardian in the ring fighting for us, helping us to set and maintain boundaries, etc. Getting stuck in the anger is not healthy though imo, it keeps us from moving forward at some point.
I can't forgive but I do understand that my parents were dealing with a lot of trauma of their own and somehow that's been enough to take the sting out (i.e., it's not me or anything I did or didn't do), and be able to move past a lot of the anger and bitterness. It's still there to a degree but it has faded into the background more and made room for other things.
Hope this is helpful, if not plse ignore.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
My anger and rage is all consuming. I have been running from it for 30years and now that i have acknowledged it, it refuses to be silenced ANY more. It is the leader of the pack as far as cptsd symptoms go, as I suffer from all the symptoms ...anger is the leader. I am firmly grounded in it. Im not happy about it, in fact it literally eats away at me, I just cant deny it.
Quote from: MGrizz on July 08, 2018, 05:09:36 PM
This is how I feel too. My abusers will be judged (or forgiven) by someone or something much bigger than I.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
As someone who was not raised with religion....this is a concept I have always struggled with. Although I have looked in on religion from the outside and at times considered if "letting jesus save me" would truly relieve me of this pain...I cant help but be suspicious. Without intending any disrespect to anyones religious beliefs, and speaking in my personal opinion only, as someone who wasn't fed religion as a child I find it very difficult to wrap my head around it. It begs all those questions..if there is something bigger then why are some of us put through such horrors in our lives? In my case why are innocent children ruined by the evilness of some adults without consequence? And then said child grows up, battles with the consequence in their EVERY WAKING moment...and they are ridiculed into relieving all abusers of guilt. My brain and my body wholeheartedly rejects it.
Quote from: Sadie48 on July 08, 2018, 05:21:06 PM
I hear you, mourningme. I don't think I can ever forgive my father for abandoning my family, or my mother for the emotional abuse we endured from her afterwards. How do you forgive someone who never acknowledged the harm they did? Who never apologized? Who never changed?
I think forgiveness as an intellectual act is one thing -- but emotionally, it's something else. The type of abuse that causes cptsd is much tougher to forgive than ordinary wrongs. We survivors of cptsd have to first protect ourselves, forgive OURSELVES, and fortify our boundaries against future harm before we can take that big leap to forgive the perpetrators of our long-term suffering.
People with cptsd tend to be tough on ourselves, self-critical. I would recommend extending forgiveness to yourself first -- true acceptance -- before you think about forgiving those who harmed you. Self-forgiveness and acceptance is tough for us, but necessary.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
Self-forgiveness and acceptance....that is the struggle isnt it? I wade in the ocean of self loathing and hate and shame over what happened to me and what I was manipulated into. I have recently woken up to realize that NO, a girl growing up does NOT seek out the things that happened to me. The ABUSER seeks to get their needs met by wasting an innocent child. I see that now and it has been the "levy" against the damn I have been struggling to hold up for 30 years. The water is rushing now and drowning me.
Quote from: woodsgnome on July 08, 2018, 05:47:44 PM
The word and concept of forgiveness is something I tried to figure out, but in the end I realized that for my own peace I just couldn't tolerate the idea of its implications. I'm with those who've had to find alternative means to dispose of the ashes, so to speak.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
I feel EXACTLY this way. I cannot tolerate all the implications of it. It makes me feel very bad inside when I consider forgiveness....it just seems like turning away from myself yet again and going toward darkness.
Quote from: ah on July 08, 2018, 09:05:56 PM
.... I eventually gave it up as an empty word, meaningless white noise. I can look up the word in dictionaries but it doesn't mean anything to me. It's just a label. But it may just be me.
Maybe forgiveness is useful for small to medium sized experiences, the sort of ordinary day to day things that are annoying but not that dangerous. It has its limits, though. Big traumas are far beyond the scope of this theory of "forgiving". It tries to flatten them to fit it but it just doesn't work.
I don't forgive my past or current abusers. It's not that I refuse to forgive them because I "hold a grudge"
But it's all so hard to discuss. It seems almost a taboo, like social sacrilege to question forgiveness nowadays :Idunno:
And there's an odd ethical pressure added to it, as though doing it makes you a good person whereas not doing it makes you less than. Forgive and you'll recover! Well, that feels more like shame to me. It's cold and unforgiving toward people who are in pain.
.....My forgiving wouldn't change their behavior, or take away my pain.
I care about some of the people who hurt me....
Actually, I wouldn't want to forgive the really big things.
I think forgiveness can be dangerous if it tries to normalize the abnormal. .... The same actions would cause cptsd in anyone who would have to experience them. I think people are complex enough to feel pain and also care simultaneously. I know I am. There's no need to deny pain to feel other things alongside it. It's maybe bigger than forgiveness and more nuanced.
Besides, trauma is real. So is violence. I would ideally want them both to never, ever be normal. We need to be able to say "This is not normal, so normal theories don't apply here either. Extreme measures needed. This is the twilight zone."
Maybe?
Thank you so much for replying to me.
So many things you say are resonating here. It just brings relief to see so many of you respond with thoughts and ideas that I thought no one understands. Just being validated is such a relief. The social pressure to forgive to me is just society's way of snuffing out mental health issues and the causes of some mental health issues. Not for the victim, so everyone else doesnt feel uncomfortable. I have been uncomfortable everyday and every minute of my entire life and Im supposed to rise up and forgive??? I will never get there.
Quote from: radical on July 08, 2018, 10:39:57 PM
I have no idea what forgiveness is in the context of repeated, severe, and damaging abuse over years, by those we most needed to be able to trust.
....
What I have experienced in some cases, with some family members is letting go of my active, ongoing anger but not my distrust, keeping whatever distance is necessary to keep myself safe, and living with a cognitive dissonance that is damaging to me, but which allows me to live with love that I am unable or unwilling to let go of.
What I think is dangerous and something I have done in the past, is "forgive" and accept ongoing but more covert abuse in the form of denial, victim-blaming, scapegoating and gaslighting, and live in a kind of crazy-land of denial about it all. Included in this toxic cocktail is a kind of patholgical gratitude when the person has caused me great harm deigns to be kind to me for any period of time. This, to me is the essence of trauma-bonding.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
I also have been living in cognitive dissonance my entire life. When your perpetrators are your own family members whom your own parents neglected you in their care and neglect to protect you from your older sibling who continued abuse....
Where else do you go but CD? I dont know any other way to be. It has been who I am my entire life I am only realizing it now.
mourningme, i'm glad you found some solace in these responses. i'm also glad you're beginning to simply embrace your feelings, emotions, thoughts, etc. as part of the trauma you've experienced. i think that's a very good sign, something that can be helpful to most everyone.
it sounds like you're finding your own path thru all this. i agree with sadie that if we need to forgive anyone, it's ourselves for what we've been taught we are, and how that's manifested itself throughout our lives. we're not terrible people, we've been carrying shame and guilt that belong to all the others who have hurt us. our wounds and damage are on them.
you're right - we didn't ask for this, didn't want to be abused. we learned we had to accept it under fear of death of one kind or another. it became part of our everyday life. we coped, we struggled, we survived. we did what we could with what we were given, and now we have the chance to change our lives. we have strength beyond measure.
i'm glad you've realized what's gone on and are now giving yourself a chance to have a different life. sending love and a hug full of care, comfort, and acceptance.
Quote from: Sadie48 on July 08, 2018, 05:21:06 PM
I hear you, mourningme. I don't think I can ever forgive my father for abandoning my family, or my mother for the emotional abuse we endured from her afterwards. How do you forgive someone who never acknowledged the harm they did? Who never apologized? Who never changed?
It was a great relief to me, after being raised and imprisioned in cult-like Christian environments where I was forced to 'forgive' abusers for every. single. thing. all the time. no matter how much damage they'd caused. because THAT was being 'Christian'...
to finally realise that absolutely no where in the Bible does God, the biggest forgiver of them all, EVER forgive someone who isn't genuinely sorry and who hasn't acknowledged what they've done.
That freed me from the last bonds of feeling like I had to forgive the worst of FOO and others inspite of them wanting me to suffer.
Edit: Oh, and I had it validated that someone just saying the words 'I'm sorry' doesn't count as an apology if they're just saying it to get you to shut up! I had to hear 'I'm sorry IF you felt that way' so many times, it felt like it tore a wound in my soul.
Quote from: mourningme on July 12, 2018, 06:04:47 AM
Quote from: MGrizz on July 08, 2018, 05:09:36 PM
This is how I feel too. My abusers will be judged (or forgiven) by someone or something much bigger than I.
Thank you so much for replying to me.
As someone who was not raised with religion....this is a concept I have always struggled with. Although I have looked in on religion from the outside and at times considered if "letting jesus save me" would truly relieve me of this pain...I cant help but be suspicious. Without intending any disrespect to anyones religious beliefs, and speaking in my personal opinion only, as someone who wasn't fed religion as a child I find it very difficult to wrap my head around it. It begs all those questions..if there is something bigger then why are some of us put through such horrors in our lives? In my case why are innocent children ruined by the evilness of some adults without consequence? And then said child grows up, battles with the consequence in their EVERY WAKING moment...and they are ridiculed into relieving all abusers of guilt. My brain and my body wholeheartedly rejects it.
Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was not raised with religion either and I too, as a child, often wondered if there is something or someone bigger than us then why are we put through the horrors we went through. That being said, even though I don't know anything about religion, I'd like to think that the abuser will be judged in the end and the thought does give me a bit of comfort, thinking that the abuser would have to answer to someone or something more powerful than he for what he did -
one never knows.
What I was trying to say in my earlier response was that I took the forgiveness out of my hands and put it back in the abuser's hands to do with what he will. I acknowledge what he did but It's not in me to forgive his evil; he needs to forgive his own evil. And by handing that 'requirement' back to him, I feel I took my power back.
I was talking with my psychologist last week about forgiveness. And I told here there are things in my past that I might be able to work towards forgiving, but there are certain things and certain people I will never want to forgive - because I feel they do not deserve it. And she agreed, she agreed that there are things that are unforgiveable.
Hi mgrizz, thank you for replying again. I completely agree with you, finding some comfort in the thought that my abusers will be judged and made to answer for their evil actions against other humans. I imagine my one perp who is already dead burning in an eternity of * for the hurt he caused to me and many others who werent protected from him. He was offered up a buffet of small children to abuse across his life and he happily did so ruining many lives. Now he is dead and instead of the relief I so craved...I have this hopeless helpless knowledge that he is still ruining my life every damn day now..all these years later. And then the battle of "them still winning" sinks me so much more. The burn of having these things wreak havoc on every facet of my adult life...the despair.
Its so incredibly painful so imagining him burning in * does give me comfort...I just wish I knew if * was anything more than a man made construction built to control people on Earth.
Im so glad that you were able to get your power back and I am truly happy for you in your situation..I wrestle with releasing it to a higher power and I hope I can get there one day.
Quote from: Sceal on July 22, 2018, 06:15:27 AM
I was talking with my psychologist last week about forgiveness. And I told here there are things in my past that I might be able to work towards forgiving, but there are certain things and certain people I will never want to forgive - because I feel they do not deserve it. And she agreed, she agreed that there are things that are unforgiveable.
Thank you for sharing this with me. Thank you for helping validate my feelings on forgiveness and sharing that your psychologist didn't push you into it but agreed that there are things that are unforgivable.
I am grateful to every person here who has responded. I feel like I am getting heard for the first time in my entire life. ❤
Dear mourningme,
I agree with you, wholeheartedly. The whole culture in this country stresses forgiveness, especially of one's parents. But anger is a very appropriate and necessary emotion to feel, as is a whole range of other emotions that need addressing in order to heal. It is toxic to insist on forgiveness. It is toxic to tell a victim that anger is inappropriate in any way.
Pete Walker wrote a whole book arguing against this weird insistence that we forgive. I recommend the book. It's called The Tao of Fully Feeling. He is extremely direct in his criticism of spiritual and therapeutic practices that tell victims their job is to forgive without any regard for victims' plights. Alice Miller is another amazing advocate for victims of trauma, and she shows absolutely no patience for insisting that victims must forgive in order to "heal." So there are folks in the psychiatric field, who are on our side. I, personally, have found great comfort in their work. Even when I'm not reading them, I am glad to know that there is a movement in the psychiatric field that pushes back against the weird sanctity of forgiveness. All best to you. I hope you continue to share your insights in this forum.
All best, LittleBoat