Out of the Storm

I've done  a ton of reading over the past several weeks and somewhere I read that Freeze type is 'untreatable.' 

I'm not one to talk about the specifics of the traumatic and ongoing abuse I suffered as a child as I have spent 30 years processing, etc.  Over the years, I have always felt/said, "I can help others, but no one can help me."  Every time I dabbed my foot into the water, I wouldn't just be splashed but drenched in a resounding "NO..." including all the guilt, shame and humiliation that goes with reaching for something you shouldn't.  Here, I'm talking about therapy. 

I am hyper-vigilant, as is the case with most of us.  I pick up on things no one else would (making me an excellent therapist/social worker.  I had to...to survive.  Any time the slightest thing happens, I over analyze it for fear of being shamed again.  On Monday, I told my T about my prior T's for the first time (remember, 12 years of 'counseling' with her).   A few weeks ago, I gave her a copy of the paragraph that contained the statement that Freeze types are untreatable.  She rolled her eyes and said, "I really wish you wouldn't be reading this stuff."  Her overall response was accurate.  On Monday, I forget what we were talking about, but sheasked me what brought me back into counseling this time.  I was a little shocked that she didn't remember....my mother's death.  She remembered it immediately and again, her response was right on target. 

We had a good session.  I was in a good mood. 

Then something happened.  Probably an EF...but whatever it was went directly to what I have thought/felt since I was a little girl...that I can't be helped.  That I am broken beyond repair.  Looking at it from ALL angles (Intellectually, professionally, emotionally, spiritually, and realistically), this does NOT end well for me.  There is not one scenario that I can play out in my head that has this ending well. 

Of course, the IC comes in and berates me with 'you are such a stupid idiot!  What the * were you thinking???  You were at a great place, why are you doing this now?  How utterly stupid are you!" 

I can't find where I read that statement.  I don't remember where I read it.  I've tried to google search it but nothing is turning up. 

So...my questions:

1.  Has anyone successfully healed from Freeze type?
2.  Does anyone know where that quote came from?
3.  Thoughts/feelings on the subject? 

Fellow.freezer here and hypervigilant.
I can hear my cat's feet bend the carpet nap, know what I'm sayin'? ;-)

I read in Walker's book that freeze was most difficult of the 4 types to recover from, but not impossible.  I didn't even know what dissociation was until 2 years ago. It has been a long road.

Is your therapist a trauma specialist? I believe we freeze types have some fundamental ground work to get down, such as staying grounded and learning to feel what is going on with our bodies. I have over the past several. Months been focusing on what is going on in my body vs only my 'thoughts'. For example when I feel anxious my chest gets tight or when I feel attacked my gut wrenches. This is where we have to start toward the road to feeling whole. Sometimes it frustrates me because it seems so elementary but in a short amount of time this focus is making a difference. 

Do NOT give up on yourself. Change is possible! Hang in there friend.

Hi Anamiame,  It's too bad the world has those negative wizards, people who say X is untreatable.  What they're really saying is that THEY don't know how, or modern Western science hasn't "proven" a method, or whatever.  Just because there is less known about something doesn't mean it isn't possible.  Would anything exist with that type of thinking?  I tend to be skeptical of anything with such extreme statements of prognosis...And being in the profession you've probably noticed that people often find a passion in their field.  I'm sure there are therapists who have a special interest in the freeze type response and how to help those with that need.  Kind of an odd comment by your T, but it sounds like she probably had her own emotional response to the content of the book (irritation, anger) that would make such a bold and discouraging statement.

From what I've seen you ARE on an active track towards healing and recovery.  You're a dedicated mother and being honest and authentic with your recovery.  Moments of discouragement are normal and as we learn to weather and cope, these emotions they pass more and more quickly each time.  Writing here is a great strategy ;)

Also a Freeze type. It's a lot better than it used to be. But I still get that response - something happens that's too overwhelming, and I go into Standby mode. It's milder than it used to be. But there's definite, absolute improvement.

Now, a big part of it is that I now avoid triggers. Which means I avoid people. Which is bad. But I'd rather deal with loneliness than spend my entire life frozen over. The lack of emotions, the lack of simple basic awareness, the numbness - no, no, no, and no. I'm determined to move out into the world again. But for some time, I was so ravaged by EFs, and so deep in Freeze mode - if I had to take a hacksaw to my social life in order to make sure I wasn't triggered, then so be it. It was the one thing I could do at the time.

I've got a few more means at my disposal now. It turned out I'm highly sensitive, and there's several simple things I can do that make my life easier almost at once.

The other thing that's helped was seeing things clearly. I guess all of us have grown up in families that treated us in some abusive or neglectful kind of way - and then made us think that their behaviour was normal and justified. Our sister site calls that the "Fog", I think. Hence the name - "out of the fog", meaning: you finally realize what exactly has been going on, and you see things clearly. I like that metaphor a lot. That's what it feels like, as if a thick, grey, pea-soup fog is finally thinning more and more. Like I'm deprogramming myself from some kind of brainwashing.

Several things happen when I'm gaining clarity about my past. For one thing, it's a lot easier to see that my habit of self-blame is a part of the propaganda and power-play that's involved in any abusive relationship. Abusers often arrange situations so you'll end up blaming yourself.

Also, the way I see things now makes me realize that my past self was actually right in lots of the things she thought and felt at the time. That makes it easier to access my emotions now.

Thirdly, I'm starting to get royally cheesed off at how things used to be. Anger is an antidote to Freezing, at least it is for me. Whenever I get angry at something: WHAM! - wide awake in a second. Which doesn't mean I'm now pursuing anger. My mother was explosively angry a lot of times during my adolescence, so no thanks. But there's a good, clean kind of anger, the kind that lets you see things for what they are, the kind that gives you the determination and energy to go protect yourself, or to fix things, whatever needs doing.

Two other things that helped were visualizations and humour. Freeze is caused when we're faced with overwhelming pressure, no? So anything that de-overwhelms this pressure has to help. Anything that makes things look smaller. And humour will do that. It doesn't even have to deal with my past - simply just listening to stand-up comedy has something reviving about it, something that wakes me up. Just the simple act of seeing a comedian face up to huge, overwhelming social pressure and cheerfully ridicule it - that has such power.

As for the visualizations - you probably know about how you're supposed to imagine that your past traumatic events are a black-and-white movie that you can then stop or fast-forward? Another thing that helps is imagining it's all just a tilt-shift picture, like a miniature train set, something I can look at from up above.

Soooo... if I'm to sum things up, I'd say it's rather like getting a car out of deep mud. You're pretty much stuck at first. But it's still possible to get out. Slow work, very frustrating, but not impossible.

I'm starting to suspect that Freeze is a part of my ability to stay with a problem, to see things accurately, to not simply decide that everything's hunky-dory, "what elephant in the room, there's no elephant, la la la la la I can't heeeaaar you", which was the official party line in my family of origin. The part of me that Freezes has always been the part that couldn't be fooled. The clear-sighted part. The part whose emotional reaction to what was happening was spot-on. That part was in an absolutely impossible position. This was the one thing left for it to do. Seeing it this way makes it possible to not feel quite so silly about Freezing. There's something of a Shakesperean tragedy about it. Maybe not exactly something heroic, but it's safe to say that Freeze isn't the same thing as simply "opting out", which I thought it was for decades.

Yikes, sorry this is so long. I'm a bit over-caffeinated. And also, many of these things are still just directions I'm moving towards, or trying to. So there's a LOT of failure and hit-and-miss and course corrections. Just in case I accidentally sounded like "hey, I got this figured out".

Thanks everyone. 

Wingnut, LOL YES!  Super-sonic hearing.  I had to be tested prior to being a therapist and I tested at 5 decibels, where most people hear at 25.  In HS, I'd sneak into the house super quiet and find my mother so she couldn't see me.  I could tell by how she wore her pants if I was safe or not.  If not, I hid.  Same thing with smell.  To me, it's the silver lining of the storm.  LOL

Bheart, thanks for the encouragement.  What's interesting is, I decided to post over a couple of days and I post, and forgot the MOST important thing!  I 'compartmentalize' emotions and have been doing inner child work in therapy.  Without going into detail, we've sort of 'mapped' it out.  I was trying to explain to my T that the fragmentations were 'normal' and she responded stating, "Come on, Ana, you know professionally that people don't normally do that."  That sort of affirmed the quote of it being 'untreatable.'  Also, that was the exact word.  I had been reading on links from OOTS, but I just can't find it.  I also can't find it in my journaling but I know my T has it. 

C.  Thank you SO much for your kind words...I think I really needed that--sometimes it's easy to over focus on the negative which blocks out the positive. 

SCat, I LOVE this!!!!

Quote from: schrödinger's cat on February 26, 2015, 08:02:03 AM
But there's a good, clean kind of anger, the kind that lets you see things for what they are, the kind that gives you the determination and energy to go protect yourself, or to fix things, whatever needs doing.

One of my 'fragments' is an angry teenager, which has a negative connotation, but it's not--it's EXACTLY what you wrote.  By the age of 14, I was sick and tired of the BS and called a spade a spade.  I was very good at righting wrongs for my siblings and even for myself.  I don't know where I got that chutzpah, but I think it's been the cornerstone of my life since that time.  The picture I get in my mind is one of the covers and videos of Avril Levine. 

Deep mud...I like that!  It's the perfect analogy. 

Just like S.cat said YES it is treatable. What kind of damned fool would say otherwise?  And Like S.cat, it will probably never completely go away, but it is a heck of a lot better than it was.

Quote from: Anamiame on February 26, 2015, 01:42:01 PM
One of my 'fragments' is an angry teenager, which has a negative connotation, but it's not--it's EXACTLY what you wrote.  By the age of 14, I was sick and tired of the BS and called a spade a spade.  I was very good at righting wrongs for my siblings and even for myself.  I don't know where I got that chutzpah, but I think it's been the cornerstone of my life since that time.  The picture I get in my mind is one of the covers and videos of Avril Levine. 

You were able to stand up for defenceless people even though you were in a precarious situation yourself? That's usually what the hero is able to do at the end of a twohundred-page novel once he's been handed a magic sword.   :waveline: 

Hi Ana - FWIW, given there isn't much you've been able to find that does actually confirm the Freeze response is untreatable, maybe you can take that to mean it actually is treatable? (i.e., there's more evidence to the contrary than there is to support the idea it isn't treatable)

Like many here, I am a freezer but nowadays I do so a lot less intensely and often, and it's through practising many of the strategies Cat talked about. There is some nice, warm sunshine around the corner for you and we're all here to help you get your car unstuck from all that childhood mud.  :sunny:

Hi Ana, I do plenty of freezing, although I don't think I could quite be defined as a Freezer, because of my angry side.   I do thoroughly understand that feeling of hopelessness of ever "recovering" from this condition we have.  I have had a long hard time fighting off the despair.

What I tell myself, FWIW, is that this condition has been and will be a chronic thing in my life.  Some people spend their lives fighting off Diabetes Type I.  I will spend my life fighting off Cptsd.   I will continue to work toward recovering my self, in all sorts of ways, inch by inch.  I will consult "experts" of all sorts, take what works for me and leave the rest.  I will value all anecdotal evidence from people like us, take what works for me personally and leave the rest.  I will seek far and wide for tidbits of information and wisdom, even from unusual sources.

Life is as full of miracles as it is of tragedies, I believe, or at least I keep telling myself that.  Anomalies happen all the time, for better and for worse.  Tiny bits of information, tiny freaks of nature, can save lives, or can take lives.  Lots of "experts" are wrong lots of times.  They are not prophets.  Even "science" and "scientists" are often wrong.

Many people can only offer us love and comfort and encouragement in the journey.  How wonderful there are people who can offer that!  Even if they prove to be wrong about what else would help me, even if I know right away they are clueless about what else would help me, I am grateful for a flash of compassion from a person with a generous loving nature.    :wave:

Any "diagnosis" or "prognosis" from any kind of "expert" can never be taken as the word of god or the prediction of one's fate, IMHO.

Quote from: Kizzie on February 26, 2015, 07:09:15 PM
There is some nice, warm sunshine around the corner for you and we're all here to help you get your car unstuck from all that childhood mud.  :sunny:

One other thing I'd like to mention.  I went to a training recently.  We discussed the F's (they mentioned 3, but we know there are 4), and the "new" awareness about all of this is they believe that freeze is always the first response, then comes flight or fight.  A normal first response, a chance to assess a situation.  I just found that interesting.  It makes sense in light of the need to anger or relax...kind of like healthy versions of fight or flight.

There is so much wonderful information and support here.  Thank you for bringing up the topic.

Quote from: Trees on February 26, 2015, 10:39:55 PM
What I tell myself, FWIW, is that this condition has been and will be a chronic thing in my life.  Some people spend their lives fighting off Diabetes Type I.  I will spend my life fighting off Cptsd.   I will continue to work toward recovering my self, in all sorts of ways, inch by inch. 

Trees--THANK YOU for this!!!  I have Lupus and I have to fight it every day.  I've never thought of CPTSD as the same.  It gave me that 'AhHA' moment!

As is typical on therapy days, I was 'out' of that EF/state of mind, whatever and was in a very upbeat jovial mood.  I told T what happened and all of your responses.  She let me 'report' information today without trying to connect feelings.  I was telling her some of the really gross details of how my mother lived.  I think I've told her before--but 12 years is a long time...so I can't remember.  However, her reaction to the info said she had never heard it before.  I literally laughed at one point and told her that I do get a perverse type of pleasure out of shocking her.   ;D

Once again though...she did everything 'right.' 

She asked if I could agree to not question my memories or be 'afraid' of lying...and she is right, every single session I come in and question.  It's hard not to though.  I couldn't agree to it then, but as I thought about it on the way home, it does make sense...especially for where we are now.  So...another step in trusting. 

I can't thank everyone on here enough for the support, ideas and kind thoughts.  I truly believe it helped me to get centered again.  I'm still trying to get the 'hang' of all of this. 

:hug:

Quote from: Anamiame on February 26, 2015, 02:07:45 AM. . . Probably an EF...but whatever it was went directly to what I have thought/felt since I was a little girl...that I can't be helped.  That I am broken beyond repair.  . . .

Of course, the IC comes in and berates me with 'you are such a stupid idiot!  What the * were you thinking???  You were at a great place, why are you doing this now?  How utterly stupid are you!"

Actually this sounds like two distinct inner critics at work here.

Frozen, hyper aware out of necessity from childhood also and *shudder* still in contact with uPDm. What has helped me out my foot down and unfreeze some is as SC mentions anger and humor. Coming OOTF and finding strength in having my own mind and preferences has been empowering. Mindfulness practice and guided audio relaxation has helped EF immensely.

Quote from: Anamiame on February 26, 2015, 02:07:45 AM
Probably an EF...but whatever it was went directly to what I have thought/felt since I was a little girl...that I can't be helped.  That I am broken beyond repair.  Looking at it from ALL angles (Intellectually, professionally, emotionally, spiritually, and realistically), this does NOT end well for me.  There is not one scenario that I can play out in my head that has this ending well.   

I have felt exactly like this.  Those are almost exactly the words I used to describe how I felt at the time.  It is so comforting to hear others mirroring my own experience. It makes me feel validated, which is really important, because, like everyone else here, I missed out on this as a kid.

I have always struggled when a T has asked me how I was feeling.  I have lied before because they clearly were expecting some response and I didn't want to let them down!  But the truth is I often haven't got a clue.  I am also trying to learn about feeling and the fact that thought and feeling are not the same.  I feel a bit cheated actually because I am getting the impression this "feeling" stuff can be very rewarding and help you decide what you want in life.  It's really hard to learn about this stuff and I find it's as exhausting as if I were breaking stones!  It's really really really slow progress but I might be a tiny bit better at it.  At least, I think I can be honest if I don't know how I'm feeling and I can forgive myself for not knowing, and I really want to feel sometimes.

I don't know if being a freeze type is treatable or not but I want to believe it is.  I want the full experience.  I want to try.  I now understand that what I do and how I react in some circumstances is perfectly normal given my experiences, even if I don't always have a narrative to fully explain what just happened.  I also appear to have found some self compassion, which means I learned something!, and I'm going to try and not beat myself up about reacting differently to other people.  I don't know if it's that self compassion or something else I've learned but I am more likely to notice when I am feeling something (not always sure what, can't name them yet) and try and respond to that by being kinder to myself.

I don't know if I will ever be in a position to trust people fully.  That still sounds like a really scary prospect.  I suspect I will need a lot more face to face therapy with a good T.  I do think that having my experiences validated through reading other members posts on this site will make me more confident in finding a good T.  Some Ts want to tell me what is wrong with me and how it can be fixed.  I now feel I have a much better idea about what is wrong with me and I am more likely to say so.

I try and approach learning about feeling like learning any new skill.  If I bought a violin today, I'm not going to be a virtuoso by the end of the year.  I may never be a virtuoso but I might be able to stop making that awful screeching noise at least lol.  That is a terrible analogy.  Sorry!  Basically, I think what I mean is, I need to work hard and remember I'm a beginner.

Gashfield: 

Glad you are here!  And I'm glad that my experience helped you!   :hug:

Hi Ana, I'm a freeze and I've made a lot of progress.  It has been a long road, 30 years and counting, but I feel like I'm "a million" times happier and healthier than I used to be.  I don't believe that any psychological condition is untreatable if the sufferer is open, willing and motivated (except, perhaps, if the person is neurologically incapable of empathy).  Even many PDs are being successfully treated these days. I know the feeling of "I can help others but I cannot help myself."  At times I have felt this and it was excruciating.  But I was wrong. I have helped myself and am continuing to help myself.  One thing I'm thinking as I've read this thread is that I think freezing as a strategy has a lot of merit - to "pause" things while a strategy can be figured out can also be transformed into a strength - not feeling compelled to act until we are ready.  Thank you for sharing and I wish you every success in your therapy  :hug:

In my experience it's very much treatable but it's so very difficult. My journey has consisted of tons of awareness of when i dissociate, lotss of mindfulness of what's going on in my body, doing lots of body stuff (exercises and stretching) and stubbornly deciding to stay put when i get that urge to dissociate. I also do a lot of mantras such as i can handle  this, tolerate this, accept it, make space for it, etc. 

To answer your questions. I thought I recovered from being in afreezer then sorry to say I am not recovered. This time around after being retraumatized again my recovery time is much faster. Like 1 or 2 days instead of months. I have learned to accept the possibility of not recovering and honestly as painful as it can be, it has shaped who I am. A resilient, creative, passionate and compassionate person. Sometimes I ponder the Hero's journey in mythology. I see my traumas as being on a quest and being chosen to go on the quest. I know I will prevail and sometimes be knocked down, but will get up because I have always survived.
There's strength in surviving. Traumatized people are some of the most inspiring and beautiful people on earth!
Take care
Seriousann333

The problem is that you don't know what you're doing so you can't fix something that a part of you is hiding from yourself! It's really an impossible situation.

I feel like psychoanalysis was my only hope. I went for 5 years and my therapist was able to point out many many things I was doing/saying/feeling without realizing it.  I still do the freezing but I have some awareness of it.  Before analysis I would not have noticed at all or perhaps not enough to do anything. It's like seeing something fleeting out of the corner of your eye but when you turn it's gone. 

I don't believe anything is untreatable frankly.  If I did, I would be dead right now.  I look back on all the times I felt something was absolutely impossible and I could never do it, and I have actually done many of them already.  I was so certain I could never do them.  Sometimes I got help and sometimes I did it myself. 

Whether you would need help or just time, I don't know.  I sometimes wonder, what if I didn't go to therapy? Would I have learned all that just over time, because that's sometimes what happens?  I think we expect things to change quickly and they don't.Self discovery happens slowly.  Maybe the trick is to live in the meantime. 

Southbound, this is exactly me too with the dissociation.
I have to listen to a tv programme / series when I go to bed at night- not sure why, think thoughts keep me awake. If not, its kind of like sleeping with out a having a pillow.
And i do start my morning with internet.
I dont like silence in the house.
I have to have a programme on while i eat. Music doesnt cut it- i have to live in a tv programme.
And i have to listen to music on the bus.

Once, when i felt myself disasociate (depersonalise), i was washing up when it happened, I realised in my disasociated state, that I had lots of internet racket going on in my head, lots of thoughts and music and voices. My own thoughts are the voices.
And then i felt i was drifting away from the internal chatter- that i wasnt paying attention to anyway, but disassociating made me recognise that there was chatter, by forcing me to step back and the sounds quietened.

I definitely think you can recover from this.

I've found that recovery is all about mindset. If I read somewhere that there is no cure for something I'm suffering from then I stop trying. If someone tells me it is possible to recover then I kickstart into motivation and have significantly less anxiety about my future then i did when I was convinced it was hopeless trying. I'd imagine you are the same, which is why you asked the question in the first place. I think in this case, you should tell your brain it IS possible to recover. Every time you start thinking that it is not possible, stop and replace the thought with 'I'm going to get past this or die trying'. I'm also a freeze type and I'm actually starting to be more aggressive with myself when I go into these states...I've set a boundary with myself, and I tell myself 'NO' when I feel the need to get away. I used to read the paper at the table having lunch with colleagues but now I force myself to join the conversation. Yes it's uncomfortable, yes it sucks, but the only way out is through.

In saying all this, I think it is dangerous to label freeze type as another "disorder" that we need to "cure". The brain repeats things that it finds pleasurable. Chronic daydreaming and dissociating from the world via fantasy is more pleasurable than feeling painful feelings. You should look at freeze type as an addiction not a disorder. If you look at it that way, would you ever tell a heroin addict that they can't kick their habit? Any addiction can be recovered from. Yes you might occasionally crave being alone, but it doesn't mean you need to give in to those cravings. There is a youtube channel called navs recovery by leyla loric, she has successfully healed her dissociation. If you look up 'cure maladaptive daydreaming' on youtube as well there are some great tips there if you find yourself daydreaming a lot.

The spartan life coach is great on youtube as well. He uses NLP and said that to heal from freeze response you need to convince your brain that it is dangerous to continue freezing, and safe to be present in the moment. At the moment your brain thinks it is safe to dissociate, and it also finds this pleasurable because fantasy is fun. I think we also need to learn that we are allowed to express feelings even when other people are around. I think this is a form of social anxiety...being scared to be vulnerable in front of others. Social anxiety can be cured.

As helpful as forums are when it comes to connecting with people who suffer similarly, I find them to be quite dangerous as there is a major theme of negative mindset. The main thing I have seen on every single forum I've ever been to regarding mental health is '...... Can't be cured, you just learn to manage it'. Yes I've accepted cptsd will be lifelong but that doesn't mean that every single aspect of it is. I definitely think some symptoms can be recovered from to a point where they aren't part of your life anymore.

I hope this helps, I'm going to say that I am learning to choose healthier ways to cope with negative feelings, and I am learning to express feelings to others instead of holding onto them all myself.

 :applause: :applause:  :applause::and :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:, Laynelove. Loved this take from your commentary:

"I think it is dangerous to label freeze type as another 'disorder' that we need to 'cure'. The brain repeats things that it finds pleasurable. Chronic daydreaming and dissociating from the world via fantasy is more pleasurable than feeling painful feelings."

I'm speaking as a classic freezer, per Walker's description. And I don't feel defensive about it. I have, actually; 'cause there have been several who consider it a problem. Well, guess what, it saved my life to follow that path, and I find it laughable to think of it as some problem that I must solve or sink beneath the waves of normality.

Saved my life? Hey, I was so depressed when a kid I wanted to end it, saw no way out. But I found a way, and while I'm sure some crackfire T would love to label me a poor freeze sort/avoidant/daydreamer/escapist/etc./ad infinitum I'll just say it again: saved my life to be this way.

I literally live in the woods. I came here 40 years ago, found I could at least live with myself; and yes, I was escaping from a horrid life, no ifs/ands/buts. I live in a hand-hewn self-built house that's a work of art. Speaking of labels, I didn't come here as a back-to-the-land nature freak, but as a confused human looking for himself, seeking only to find the PEACE denied him by people who nearly destroyed his will to live. Survived, and did alright by anyone's standards (and no, I don't mean money, it was never my consideration other than to have enough).

I created an artistic career that brought me in touch with people. I still can't fully trust anyone, but I've worked with lots and spoken to thousands of people, acted as mentor and teacher to many along the way.

And yes I'm that terrible varmint known as a hermit--which doesn't mean someone who sits in the woods and lives in regret. I have plenty, and I can trigger at the slightest mention or memory, and certain people and situations almost always end up in an EF episode. I can't sleep many nights when the memories crash. I'm still learning to live with the downside, but there's enough upside to almost make me proud to be a freeze or whatever the label has to be.

I think a lot of people must miss Walker's positive treatment of the different responses to cptsd. Check out pages 106-107 and those around it and you'll find all sorts of upsides to each condition. As a freeze, I know I've loads of mindfulness--if it came about as a reaction to the bad stuff, well it obviously took a good turn--people pay huge sums for mindfulness training, I find it just a part of my makeup. Should I feel bad for that?

Walker lists awareness, presence, and my life's dream--PEACE--as positive characteristics for freeze sorts. I'll take it. Yes, I've literally hidden here; yes, I can easily dissociate; I sure am a hermit, but I've also been very sociable in my profession when I had to be and creative as * in living despite the obstacles of the "disorder".

Walker does note that freeze types can become quite content with their condition. Really--that's a problem?

Laynelove added: "You should look at freeze type as an addiction not a disorder." I'd toss out addiction and replace with something like creative passion for life. It's just a choice that, in my case, I felt compelled to take. Maybe I'll have to write a book--"The Freeze's Manifesto" or something :bigwink:.

So yes, I have huge problems. But I also did something with what was dumped on me. Yes, it's hard to get a grip on dealing with people, and my trust level still rests towards the bottom on any scale. It's hard to motivate myself to do things; but I've certainly done lots--I've won awards for, gulp, working with kids. I don't call it recovery, just fortitude in distress. Recovery? I don't see it as a prospect, and no longer worry about it...Acceptance of what I can/can't do is more important.

So next time someone admires how I live, alone and in the woods, and admires what I've done, I'm not about to correct 'em and say "but don't you know, I'm one of those poor freeze types? The ones that cause therapists to furrow their brows and pull sad faces." Yeah, right.

I know, another long post but it's obviously something that stirs me. Still here, still working, but also dreaming, fantasizing a way to be a part of this world as best I can. Blinded by tears sometimes, lots of cptsd-remnant pain, but it's been a good life too. As Laynelove points out, it's good to remind ourselves sometimes.

Southbound

How cool that now you dont start your day with internet.
And also cool that you are writing a book!

It is interesting to me where the voices come from. Maybe its normal to have them. Maybe we have them because we dont pay attention to ourselves.

I definitely think you can recover from this.
I've found that recovery is all about mindset. If I read somewhere that there is no cure for something I'm suffering from then I stop trying. If someone tells me it is possible to recover then I kickstart into motivation and have significantly less anxiety about my future
:thumbup: :thumbup:

Do you mind me asking Southbound, how it was that you came to figure out that you could live with yourself?
It is one of my worst fears, living alone- alone.

I hope to one day trust myself. I dont trust anyone and thats bad, but maybe its so bad because i cant even trust myself. when it comes to me, its as though I'm a body, but my insides fall to my feet and I'm hollow. I gave up on myself a long time ago and wonder if ill ever get the motivation back for myself.

Walker lists awareness, presence, and my life's dream--PEACE--as positive characteristics for freeze sorts. I'll take it.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
I will have to read that chapter, because I'm confused as to why we are aware = arnt we less aware of we are disassociating?
Do we disassociate because we are TOO aware?



Quote
Walker does note that freeze types can become quite content with their condition. Really--that's a problem?
Walker also said that freeze types are unaware of the life narrowing consequences of their freezing- or something to that nature.
I wonder, If anyone can truly greive etc- do Cptsd recovery work-
when they disassociate.
Disassociating takes away our feelings- and aparently-
If you dont ever feel the bad feelings-
you end up not feeling happiness fully too.
So if you disasociate and have absance of feeling-
can it really swing like a pendulum back and forth between *feeling* and *not feeling*?

I know it can perhaps in the beginning of recovery -
when you still disassociate.
You may be able to tolerate with in time painful feelings-
but afterwards you may disassociate.

ps. Im sure the mods will be understanding of what its like when you need to vent- or your passionate about what your writing and your on a roll.
I understand.

I wonder if as you recover from cptsd, your trauma response type could change?

Eg. If I work on self assertiveness, self confidence and self love, will I switch to a fight type? If I see myself as something worth fighting for I guess it could happen right?

I wish there were some studies we could take part in. I don't know about you guys, but I'm sick of wallowing in my own self pity and I am pretty keen to actively help find some solutions to our problems.

Does anyone know about any studies or trials or anything like that?

Quote from: Laynelove on October 26, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
I wonder if as you recover from cptsd, your trauma response type could change?

Eg. If I work on self assertiveness, self confidence and self love, will I switch to a fight type? If I see myself as something worth fighting for I guess it could happen right?

Yes, I think it is even the point.
From what I have gathered about the "four F's" in the first place is that one is not 'better' than the other. We can use all four. As anybody does. "Freezing" in itself is not a 'bad' thing/type, it becomes problematic if we "Freeze" when the situation calls for another response, and/or another response is at least 'available', a valid option.

Perhaps an analogy helps (for me it usually does):
If I'm about to cross a street, and suddenly a car pops out of nowhere at high speed, I'll Freeze in my action to cross. A very sensible and potentially life-saving Freeze response.
If I do the same when already halfway ON the street, not so much.
If I freeze every time I want to cross a street, with no traffic at all in sight, it's also not very 'apt', but then a mere annoyance.

Key for recovery is, I think, to find access to all four F's, and apply them in the 'right' situations. Getting rid of ALL freeze responses is not the end goal, just the dysfunctional "freezes".

As far as "Fight" goes: I did a self-defense course once, and in the first lesson the teacher basically said: "OK, we're going to learn you how to fight, but remember that walking away from a fight is still the best way to make sure you will not get beaten up."

http://youtu.be/FhXJC5J1LuU

Just some more info on freeze response, it's solution focused and really helpful  :yes:

Thanks for the video link, Laynelove. Her summary touches on the key, that we can access the awareness/mindfulness/presence that Walker indicates is very doable for the freeze-dominated type. Realizing what's happening, appreciating why one's having difficulty with it, and living around, within, and through the situation, from major life decisions to taking the next step.

The anxiety doesn't disappear, but being mindful of it might allow one to do things they didn't think they could. Temporarily at least, but perhaps longer. It's a little deceptive, though, as it takes loads of patience to get to a comfortable level with it.

Does it always work? Not at all--name me a fool-proof method and it would be way cool. In my own case, I turned down lucrative-sounding jobs and money based on my freeze instincts--I was aware they weren't what I needed. Was I wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what one's trying to achieve...in my case, that was always what I considered most peaceful. I've had blowhards convinced that's my cover/camouflage right there, but to me it only shows their own covert way to invalidate my life. This society is so full of opinions presented as facts rather than as...opinions (surprise!). Crazy.

Southbound wrote: "...it's hard to know when to stop when we get fired up about something."

This may be a little off the freeze/dissociation thread's theme, but these "cross-fire" questions do pop up within disparate topics. So slightly out-of-place or not, here's my take on length of posts.

In my case, I always start with an intent to be brief, but my life story started in an atmosphere of constant misunderstanding (some deliberate; some not so much; all abusive in nature). As I've gone through life, I've carrried this fear of being misunderstood, and probably reflect that. Trying to "twitterize" is impossible for me, as is soundbite-style rapid-fire speech (unless I'm performing as an actor and the script calls for it).

That's the crux of it for me...I worry about being heard; but then more so about was I truly understood. That's all (whew!). :disappear:

This all also so fully describes what I've been been experiencing and what I'm currently feeling super stuck in--and also part of why it feels so hard to go back into therapy, and why it feels like such a huge breakthrough when I cry/allow myself to feel anything in this state. But just reading some of this stuff is giving me so much of a better idea of what I should be looking for as I'm going to try to get back into therapy because I'm really, really done with feeling this stuck/trapped and being frustrated with how far back I fall after making what feels like progress.