Out of the Storm

Development of CPTSD in Childhood => Other => Causes => Personality Disorder (Perpetrator) => Topic started by: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 03:17:12 PM

Title: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 03:17:12 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted already, but I read this very useful article today - on "How Narcissistic Parenting Affects Children" and I relate to all the things listed there.  The article is in Psychology Today and was originally posted in February 2018, it is by Karyl McBride, and a link is here:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201802/how-narcissistic-parenting-affects-children
Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Eyessoblue on July 11, 2018, 03:33:30 PM
Hi hope, thank you for posting this, I have had a sudden realisation that this is how my mum's mum treated her and pretty much how my mum treated me, I've never put that connection together before but has really given me something to think about and explains how generational behaviour works itself through the family system. Thanks hope.x
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 03:47:41 PM
Hi Eyessoblue,
I am glad you found it useful too - I was just popping back to put the list of items that Karyl McBridge had highlighted - as I found it so helpful:

This is the list:

"So how does narcissistic parenting affect children?
    • The child won't feel heard or seen.
    • The child's feelings and reality will not be acknowledged.
    • The child will be treated like an accessory to the parent, rather than a person.
    • The child will be more valued for what they do (usually for the parent) than for who they are as a person.
    • The child will not learn to identify or trust their own feelings and will grow up with crippling self-doubt.
    • The child will be taught that how they look is more important than how they feel.
    • The child will be fearful of being real, and will instead be taught that image is more important than authenticity.
    • The child will be taught to keep secrets to protect the parent and the family.     
    • The child will not be encouraged to develop their own sense of self.
    • The child will feel emotionally empty and not nurtured.
    • The child will learn not to trust others.
    • The child will feel used and manipulated.
    • The child will be there for the parent, rather than the other way around, as it should be.
    • The child's emotional development will be stunted.
    • The child will feel criticized and judged, rather than accepted and loved.
    • The child will grow frustrated trying to seek love, approval, and attention to no avail.
    • The child will grow up feeling "not good enough."
    • The child will not have a role model for healthy emotional connections.
    • The child will not learn appropriate boundaries for relationships.
    • The child will not learn healthy self-care, but instead will be at risk of becoming co-dependent (taking care of others to the exclusion of taking care of self).
    • The child will have difficulty with the necessary individuation from the parent as he or she grows older.
    • The child will be taught to seek external validation versus internal validation.
    • The child will get a mixed and crazy-making message of "do well to make me proud as an extension of the parent, but don't do too well and outshine me."
    • The child, if outshining the parent, may experience jealousy from the parent.
    • The child is not taught to give credit to self when deserved.
    • The child will ultimately suffer from some level of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, and/or anxiety in adulthood. 
    • The child will grow up believing he or she is unworthy and unlovable, because if my parent can't love me, who will?
    • The child is often shamed and humiliated by a narcissistic parent and will grow up with poor self-esteem.
    • The child often will become either a high achiever or a self-saboteur, or both.
    • The child will need trauma recovery and will have to re-parent themselves in adulthood."

Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on July 11, 2018, 05:15:51 PM
Yikes, that is so me and helps validate once again why I have had such a long road and difficult time recovering from a covert NPD FOO. 

So sad for those of us who grew up with NPD FOO :'(   Thanks for this Hope, it's a great article for validating why emotional abuse/neglect are as insidious and damaging as overt and visible forms of abuse/trauma  :yes:
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 05:23:55 PM
Hi Kizzie,
I agree it is vey sad for those of us who grew up this way.  I was interested that you mentioned that your FOO were 'Covert NPD FOO' - and I wonder if there's somewhere that defines what 'covert' means' - i.e. is there a difference and some people might be 'overt NPD FOO' - sorry if that seems like a silly question, but I am wondering if 'covert' is the opposite of 'overt' - or if it means something else.

Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on July 11, 2018, 05:40:11 PM
It is the opposite of overt or more obvious N behaviour. My FOO were quite concerned with putting forth an image of a happy family so we looked good on the surface, but it was just that, an image.  All of the things in the article were true for me, they were just disguised, cloaked in the guise of good parenting as the article touches on. 

Being raised by a narcissistic parent is emotionally and psychologically abusive and causes debilitating, long-lasting effects to children. It is often missed by professionals, because narcissists can be charming in their presentation, displaying an image of how they wish to be seen. Behind closed doors, the children feel the suffocation of self and struggle with loneliness and pain.

I've heard it referred to as "stealth narcissism"  which really describes my FOO to a "T". It makes it doubly hard for children and others to grasp what's really going on. 
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 06:45:35 PM
Hi Kizzie,
Thank you so much for explaining that, and I relate completely to the 'covert' aspect - now I understand what it means.  I have read about Narcissistic parenting before, and related to it - but to see this list and to relate to each and every point on it - it really brings it home to me - but it's also very validating at the same time - because I realise that for those of us who have experienced this form of parenting, we're up against a lot.  It has significant impacts.

Thanks again for expanding on it - to help me understand better.  It also explains why others 'wouldn't see it' - because there's a pretense of normality about it.  I think the term 'stealth narcissism' is very apt.

Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Blueberry on July 11, 2018, 07:41:26 PM
Thanks from me too for posting, Hope. I decided not to read the whole list atm because enough effects jumped off the page at me all on their own. I like the way K.McBride refers to 'narcisstic parenting' as opposed to narcissts. The emphasis is on how the parenting played out rather than whether the parents are/were narcissts. I'm still not sure about even undiagnosed diagnosis. But the parenting style and effects - oh, yeah  :yes:

I agree Kizzie, it helps validate the reasons behind a long, long road to recovery and how difficult it often is.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Libby183 on July 12, 2018, 05:04:44 AM
That's it, exactly,  Blueberry.  I don't think that my parents were narcissists as such. But within the nuclear family,  as parents, they absolutely were. They were perfect parents and heaven help us if we didn't agree.

For my damaged  mother,  her children were the first things in life which she had complete power over, and she exercised this power, from day one, for all she was worth.

I read a quote that said that overt N's think they are great and the world agrees. OTOH, covert N's think they are great but everyone disagrees.  Hence abusing their children within the 'safety' of the family unit. 

Makes complete, but very sad, sense.

Love to all of us with imperfect parents.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 12, 2018, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: Blueberry on July 11, 2018, 07:41:26 PM
I like the way K.McBride refers to 'narcisstic parenting' as opposed to narcissts. The emphasis is on how the parenting played out rather than whether the parents are/were narcissts. I'm still not sure about even undiagnosed diagnosis. But the parenting style and effects - oh, yeah  :yes:

I agree Kizzie, it helps validate the reasons behind a long, long road to recovery and how difficult it often is.

Hi Blueberry,
This is a really pertinent distinction you've made, in my view. 
Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on July 12, 2018, 07:54:55 AM
Quote from: Libby183 on July 12, 2018, 05:04:44 AM
I read a quote that said that overt N's think they are great and the world agrees. OTOH, covert N's think they are great but everyone disagrees.  Hence abusing their children within the 'safety' of the family unit. 

Makes complete, but very sad, sense.

Love to all of us with imperfect parents.

:yeahthat:

Well said, Libby. 

Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: dollyvee on January 05, 2020, 10:54:52 AM
Really thankful for finding this forum as difficult as it can be to read sometimes, given the things it brings up.

This was a good check list of behaviour and feelings I can see in myself. It's almost like stepping back and seeing my own feelings in the third person which is very helpful when feelings and can be so difficult to untangle. Understanding the enmeshment is one of the hardest things, sorting out where it all comes from.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Hope67 on January 05, 2020, 04:52:18 PM
Hi Dollyvee,
I'm glad  you found this article helpful, and I'd like to welcome you to the forum, as I see this is your first post - people are so supportive here, I hope you'll find it a positive place to be.
Glad you found your way here.
Hope  :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on January 05, 2020, 06:00:54 PM
Just wanted to say welcome to OOTS Dollyvee and that you're in good company with those of us who developed CPTSD/RTR as a result of parents with NPD.   :grouphug:   

It used to be a tough sell (that the emotional abuse of being captive to someone with NPD was indeed big T trauma), but I sense that's beginning to change, perhaps because there are so many of us sadly and that we're finding one another and talking about the deep and debilitating wounds disordered parenting can cause.  Whatever the case, glad too you found your way here.   :)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: DingDingCrunch on February 17, 2020, 10:45:49 PM
This is a great article! Thank you for sharing. I really love this channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIELB1mz8wMKIhB6DCmTBlw

It is helping me to be able to set better boundaries with my parents without feeling as guilty. I feel so confused as to who I am and what I like sometimes, I am so used to thinking of maintaining an image or helping others first. I also like Les Carter's books, and the book Codependency No More by Beattie.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on February 18, 2020, 06:11:43 PM
Tks for the resources DDC! 

Still amazes me how many of us there are and that we seem to have escaped the attention of MH professionals for this long.  :'(   
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: dollyvee on October 18, 2020, 11:05:08 AM
Quote from: Kizzie on January 05, 2020, 06:00:54 PM
Just wanted to say welcome to OOTS Dollyvee and that you're in good company with those of us who developed CPTSD/RTR as a result of parents with NPD.   :grouphug:   

It used to be a tough sell (that the emotional abuse of being captive to someone with NPD was indeed big T trauma), but I sense that's beginning to change, perhaps because there are so many of us sadly and that we're finding one another and talking about the deep and debilitating wounds disordered parenting can cause.  Whatever the case, glad too you found your way here.   :)

Thank you Hope and Kizzie for your welcome messages in January. I didn't receive notification. I agree it was a tough sell to myself especially, that this was abuse and trauma. Glad that other people understand it now though.

Dollyvee
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on October 18, 2020, 02:32:51 PM
 :grouphug:

(Note: Our notification feature has a glitch but at the moment I am caught up in terms of time and energy in a family health issue.  Hope to get to the glitches once things settle.)
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Violet Magenta on October 19, 2020, 01:15:07 AM
The whole list rings true, and this REALLY hit home: "The narcissist is not accountable for their own mistakes or behavior, so the child believes they are to blame..." It still happens in nearly all interactions with my parents to this day. One of my biggest battles is with a miasma of toxic shame that clouds my whole life. It is hard work. Hang in there everyone. Thanks, Hope, for sharing this.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Asche on January 02, 2021, 01:12:00 PM
Thanks for the pointer to the article.   I think I tick off most of the bullet points, and the others are still "maybe"s.

I've been reading (and re-reading)  Trauma and Recovery  and The Body Keeps the Score, but neither one explicitly discusses Narcissistic parenting.   My therapist thinks my mother had NPD (based on my descriptions -- my mother died about 11 years ago.)  I've never felt like either emotional abuse or emotional neglect really described what I suffered, but this seems to be it.

Decades ago, I summed my mother up as "she sees everything that happens to her as a morality play put on for her benefit/edification."  I think she saw every interaction with anyone as a judgement of her goodness/badness as a person.  Other people weren't real to her, they were only extensions of herself and her needs.  So when things happened that she saw as indicating that she was a bad person, she would get angry (I remember her losing her temper all the time when I was young, and she would regularly hit us with a fly swatter or forsythia branch) or come up with some reason as to why it wasn't her responsibility, or simply pretend it wasn't happening.  Yeah, there was -- and still is -- a lot of gaslighting in my family.

I had a number of problems with school and with my brothers when I was younger, and she basically would tell me that it was my fault and I should just handle it myself.  My life was * until I eventually trained myself not to care and not to feel and to tell my parents as little as possible about my life.  My teen years were spent just trying to stay sane until I could move out.

When I was young, I had piano lessons, but I hated to practice mostly because my mother would come in and comment on it whenever I did.  I got the feeling that she wanted to somehow appropriate my music for herself.  And one time I played a Beethoven sonata (because the music was right there on the piano), and afterwards she told me, "your father used to play that piece, but he won't ever again now that he's heard you play it."

And there was one really weird experience I had with her, years later, when I was in grad school.  I was talking to her, saying how what I believed was ultimately my responsibility; even if I decided to uncritically accept someone else's judgements and beliefs, it was still something I had chosen.  She told me I was "so arrogant" and then acted like I had really wounded her.  At the time, her reaction confused me -- to me, it felt like what I said was obvious, like saying "water is wet."  But now I think it was because I was asserting that I was a separate person from her, rather than an extension of herself.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on January 02, 2021, 07:45:08 PM
Hey Asche, I grew up in a family with NPD so can relate to much of what you're saying. It's difficult whenever I re-read the list in the article, but confirms why I have CPTSD.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know about our sister site Out of the Fog which has lots of great info about personality disorders and a support forum like ours here - https://outofthefog.website/
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Asche on January 03, 2021, 05:47:09 PM
Quote from: Kizzie on January 02, 2021, 07:45:08 PM
.... just wanted to let you know about our sister site Out of the Fog which has lots of great info about personality disorders and a support forum like ours here - https://outofthefog.website/

I know about that website.  My impression was that Out Of The Storm was particularly for people with Complex PTSD, which I pretty clearly have, and Out Of The Fog was for anyone dealing with people with personality disorders.  But I've looked at both, trying to glean whatever might help me get clearer about who and what I am.

A lot of what I am struggling with is actually believing that my problems arise from how I was treated, and that that treatment really was that bad -- that I'm not just being a crybaby or just "trying to get attention" or making a mountain out of a molehill.   Everything seemed so superficially okay, and people outside the family always said how wonderful my parents were and if they ever mentioned my obvious problems, it was to imply that they were because I was doing it wrong.  I've been mostly holding onto the fact that I can clearly remember (and always have remembered) that I was thinking of suicide and how I might go about it on a daily basis and wishing I had the nerve to go through with it, because even I can see that children don't do that unless it's pretty bad.  (I still struggle with suicidal ideation, half a century later.)

My therapist and I don't spend a lot of time talking about C-PTSD as such, because our time is focussed on dealing with the issues, not trying to come up with DSM-V categories.  But I've looked at a number of web pages that list the symptoms of C-PTSD, and I clearly have most of them, and I can't say I don't have the others, because of the distortions in my thinking that still remain.

Therapy has been pretty slow and discouraging because I developed a lot of work-arounds to cover up the problems.  Also, I don't recall ever having had a person or place where I felt really safe.  (Van der Kolk mentions that people who as children never had anyone they felt safe with have a particularly hard time undoing the damage.)

Fortunately, I interact very little with my FOO, partly because I have organized my life far away from them and partly because my siblings don't seem to have much interest in interacting anyway.   My parents are dead, but even before they died, they avoided dealing with me to the  extent they could while maintaining the pretense of being a happy loving family.  I suspect that they would have been more willing to interact with me (e.g., let me know when they were passing through, or when relatives died, etc.) if I had made more of an effort to keep up the pretense that they were loving parents.   Since they died, I have the impression that things have eased a smidgen with my siblings, but it's hard to know because everything with my FOO has always been so murky and ambiguous and just plain strange.
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: Kizzie on January 03, 2021, 07:45:20 PM
You're correct about Out of the Storm and Out of the FOG, I just thought it might be helpful even if you aren't dealing with your parents in life any more because for many of us the ghosts of our parents continue to haunt us until we can figure out what happened to us. 

Reading posts at OOTF about what people are dealing with someone with NPD may help you to see the behaviours/abuse more clearly and also to learn the language surrounding NPD.  That really helped me to articulate all the confusion and chaos I felt around my family.  Most of all being at OOTF helped me to see and accept that it wasn't me, it was what happened to me at the hands of my NPD family and that meant I could get on with dealing with my symptoms here. 

I hear you about never feeling safe.   Safe connections with others is especially important in our case but there's just not much available at the moment that focuses on this, partly due to COVID of course but more because we are not recognized as a trauma population the same way others survivors like refugees or soldiers/first responders with PTSD are.  I'd so like to see more groups/safe spaces for us like this one in the UK - http://bodyandsoulcharity.org/. 

Anyway Asche, I hope being here helps you with your symptoms and that you feel safe enough to keep posting  :grouphug: 
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: dollyvee on January 03, 2021, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: Asche on January 03, 2021, 05:47:09 PM
A lot of what I am struggling with is actually believing that my problems arise from how I was treated, and that that treatment really was that bad -- that I'm not just being a crybaby or just "trying to get attention" or making a mountain out of a molehill.   

Welcome to the forum Asche and I hope you find what you need here. Growing up with narc parents can be extremely insidious and a real mind bender. I found some of  the posts on OOTF dealing with gaslighting very helpful.  Reading about other peoples' experiences with it helped me to get a little distance from my own experiences and begin to frame them in a way that I could see it as abuse. It's so much easier to get angry over how other people have been treated than my own treatment and I think that's a good step towards healing.

:grouphug:
Title: Re: Article about Effects on Children of Narcissistic Parenting
Post by: int101 on May 18, 2021, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: Hope67 on July 11, 2018, 03:17:12 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted already, but I read this very useful article today - on "How Narcissistic Parenting Affects Children" and I relate to all the things listed there.  The article is in Psychology Today and was originally posted in February 2018, it is by Karyl McBride, and a link is here:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201802/how-narcissistic-parenting-affects-children
Hope  :)

yes, i remember reading that article, that woman knows her stuff. It is very rare for a therapist to understand what you went through.