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Reading the past texts, i realise, that his girlfriend said, that dad was mad at me becasue i didnt reply to his past texts.
He doesnt understand that I'm in therapy, and that its do with what him- and my mum- therefore I'm angry, and I'm allowed to feel that way.
He was mad because after that horrible phone call in which he betrayed my trust and told his girlfriend that I'm in therapy, after me saying that is personal you know? to him,
I was mad-
but more mad at his invalidation of me saying to him, that i thought he would have thought to ask me before he told her.
He invalidated that and went on talking about himself, saying , oh well...
to which i said, i don't think your hearing me...
to which the same response...
I hung up after he moaned on and on to me about his girlfriend, completely disregarding what i said.
He kept ringing and i went into a full fledged panic. i wanted the phone calls to stop.

He is mad at me, because i was angry with him- though indirectly.
I tried to talk about what i was unhappy with like an adult,
but he isn't in the place where he can talk about what happened.

He IS mad at me because i feel angry with what he did, and how he invalidated my feelings about it.
Im glad i could revisit the text conversation i had with her.
Maybe there is nothing to feel guilty about.
Bring in the new year...and thank you to everyone who has been here for me this past year.

Hope your mum is up and well soon.

Yes same. And hope your hanging in there ok too Manchesterford.

[quote Or maybe the ones we want to be there, never will be and may never have been, that is so hard to accept.

[/quote]
My gosh - yes. perhaps thats why we want partners and relationships we can never have.
Maybe we are unconsciously repeating patterns, as well as trying to solve what happened back then. Grief needs to be *about the right people*- the people this happened with in the first place.
That is eye opening to hear it written like that. Thank you!

You are welcome, Im really glad that what I wrote was of help to you.
(If you don't mind me saying..) your situation does sound like covert incest to me.

She scapegoated my dad, that's for sure. Told me things I shouldn't know.

Yes, classic.
Interesting that she wanted you to be...what did you say? ...different from other men. I wonder in what way. You have had a lot of expectation placed upon you, which i don't think is fair at all.

Wife2, Struck a chord with me when you mentioned having to prepare for your parent coming over. I find it hard to see my dad in general- but its hard in a different way when I'm not in a good place. I feel ignored listening to his problems, and just don't have the energy to be there for him.
I find it hard - exhausting, to see others when I'm in a bad place . I feel ..not right inside. Part of that i realise is that i cant let them see me, and many times, others don't notice that somethings wrong (in me). Perhaps my dad being this way (as well as the invalidation from my mother for having feelings), has resulted in me being this way, and isolating when things are hard. Thanks.

Gd Davis, hi.
Does this make sense? - It does.
Triggers here.....

Im not sure, with out knowing more to the story, weather your mums abuse, was well meaning.
It sounds to me as though it was all about her needs, not yours. It sounds like she used you to serve her.

I was never smacked, and on the face of it, great 'respect' was given to me.

Doesn't matter. Apparently, the emotional pain is the most hurtful, and the effects of that last the longest, whilst bruises heal. 
With physical kinds of abuse, you are always left with emotional scars.
And emotional abuse effects the body too, like with physical trauma. its very interesting how mind and body are connected, and stress greatly effects the body.

I've been reading Pete Walker today, and I'm pretty sure my mother has traits of fawn/fight about her (nurturing so strong it controls or smothers).

Yes, this kind of behaviour you talk about your mother having towards you, would be controlling, and would be smothering, thus, you would feel controlled and smothered.

I feel bad, as in pathetic and guilty for it,

Guilt is what this kind of abuse makes a person feel. It keeps you feeling responsible of the parent, stopping you from putting yourself first, meeting your needs, and having a life of your own.
You have a form of Cptsd - probably due to many reasons, but one thing that i see has happened from your post, is your boundaries being invaded.
Your sense of self likely overlooked, ignored.
This can create fear of intimacy- fear of being engulfed. Fear of having to always be there for someone else, fear of having to be over responsible.

You said:
My anger was not allowed. - your anger is part of your *self*.
I was supposed to be reasonable, grown up, clever.
To have empathy.
My mother approved of those things,
expected them (IMO- to ok to just expect.)
praised me for it.
I remember being enthralled, and I remember how good it felt when I succeeded in appearing to be more adult than I really was.
I remember performing. Needing her 'respect'.

I know others have mentioned on here about emotional incest / Covert incest.
That came to mind first when i read your post.
The same things you talk about happened to me too. And it is normal for the child, to feel special and great when the parent praised them for being there *for them*, so it can be hard to accept that that was actually abuse.
As far as i know, its a form of control, and weather the parent simply didnt care about what they were doing, or weather they were unconsciously repeating what was done to them and they just didn't know any better, doest really matter (though it mattered to me). The effects are the same, and it is wrong.

One question i would ask you to think about, is weather your mother did any of these things for you, that you did for her?
Even if she did, you shouldn't have to parent her back. That is too much responsibility for a child / adult child.

Cptsd can come from neglect, as well as active abuse. It seems to me, that you had both.
Im so sorry that this happened to you.   

radical, I'm sorry your also in the same place.

Thanks for explaining.

The reason much older men can be dangerous when you are much younger, is that what can appear to a younger generation to be signs of sophistication, worldliness and having their life together, is often clearly seen to those of a similar age to be patronising, self-indulgent, insecure and jerky

. 
Makes sense. I think it might work if the person seems younger for their age.

A bigger danger though is what can appear to be protective and loving can turn out to be controlling, undermining, and covertly abusive.  It can create an unhealthy dependency trap. They can have a vested interest in you not gaining confidence if it was partly lack of confidence that  drew you to them.  There can be a one-up one-down dynamic from the outset, they are the teacher and you the student, in a way.

Yes, that makes sense. Its always a possibility.

I wasn't even a damn butterfly, and why would you be attracted to someone you didn't see as being an adult?  I don't think he ever knew who I was as a person despite years together, I was just his pretty doll. He never saw me as an equal and the coercive control got worse over time.  All good relationships are equal partnerships, imo. 

Thats very sad radical, and very wrong. It sounds like he saw you, only for what he wanted you to be. Perhaps he missed out on seeing how much more there is to you.

I guess, considering the fact that i have never had a positive relationship with anybody, it is easy to think that if this dude did feel the same, which he doesn't, that it would just go the same way as all the others did, that he would be the same as all the others.  I do think however, that if anything did happen, that i would be on high alert for anything bad (which could make me seem crazy and not relaxed in itself- so not good), but if anything did come up, i would run.
Been doing a lot of that lately, and now i have left all the friends behind who were no good for me.

Also, the young years when you are living the life of an older person due to being with an older partner, you don't get them back.

That makes sense radical. That is quite scary. Im sorry if that happened to you.
When i realised that i had missed out on being a child, enjoying my teen years, being a normal teenager, and that my 20's were wasted when i should have been having fun, I realise that i have needs that were never fulfilled, hence, maybe like them, i have needs left over.
There would have to be a compromise, I would have to do things that i need- for me, as I can never let my life go by like i have done. And it wasnt even really because of my X, just never fell into that kind of crowd, and due to Cptsd, never went to university, when i could have.
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Dee, thanks for telling me what you do to meet your own needs.

It totally sucked, but perhaps my latest act of taking care of myself was going to the emergency room and telling them I needed to be watched for a few hours.  I could of hurt myself in some way, but I decided to communicate my needs.  It was hard, but the next day I felt good about my choice.

Well, i think that is amazing. And very brave.

See, i can't listen to my inner child, but asking for what i need from others- that is a big no no for me. i mean, if I'm needy (inside, even largely hidden from myself), what if others see that?
I do think you have to take care of your own needs first- the child like ones that you never got, because someone else can't fill them- well, not completely.

Im sorry you had a similar experience in your relationship to radical.
I have had similar experience to you and radical, though from a guy only a year older.
He invaded my boundaries in more ways than one, and i have huge boundry lines that keep others out. But i thought him pressuring me to talk and be open when i just couldn't, was him caring, only it wasnt, and he couldnt accept that that is the way i am (due to trauma and being made to be that way).
But i also did things to control him, things I'm not proud of. I became like my mother. I needed to frantically control how i felt due to triggers and i projected that onto him.

I think i already do make my own decisions. I always say to my T, i know you can't tell me what to do, and taking the issue out helps.
I don't think my X liked that i used to *go against the grain*, I used to speak up when things were not going to fly with me so to speak. I had opinions and i voiced them.
Though when things were tough and there was a lot of trauma stuff coming up, i did one time do what he wanted, because i was in a double bind and i knew that whatever decision i made, he wouldn't be happy with.

I think i need to listen to what she needs. Makes sense, as she was rejected and shamed for having needs in the first place. So now i can't meet her needs. I think i need to know that it will be ok if i listen, and that she is deserving of that.
Im in a place of distrust that others would respond well if i communicated a need.

Contessa, Im sorry your not feeling well. I don't know whats going on, but I just want you to know that Im here for you too.
Its totally ok that you didnt read all of the thread, just thank you for taking the time to post.

Sienna, that hard crushing really hurts hey. Your heart says one thing while your mind is on a different journey, and you find yourself at an emotional crossroad trying to understand what is happening while choosing which way to go.

You seem to really understand this.
Feel less alone after reading your post. I have been feeling pretty ashamed for having these feelings and your post has helped me to feel a little better.
This sounds like a conflict, and i wonder if its dissociative parts wanting completely different things, and trying to protect / guard that part that wants closeness.  Added, who / what you want is unavailable, thus maybe plus emotional flashback.

I'm in the same place as you, I would love to be in a healthy respectful relationship, but am vulnerable to exploitation. How I long for someone to hold me in their arms and feel complete and safe. But I can't, because I'm not strong enough to be content with 'me'.

I feel the same. It makes sense that anyone would want that connection with another, and when you add into the mix never having had it before, meaning your left with gaping holes that want to be filled.
And it makes sense doesn't it, if we have been injured, that we are vulnerable to exploitation, which is not our fault.
I hope you can get to a place where you are one day, happy and content with who you are.

With you too Contessa. 

[I guess i just want to know *how* to take care of myself.]

Dee, thanks for understanding, though you are in the same place.
You are right and i have always known this.
I guess i just want to know *how* to take care of myself.
And i know that the aim of doing that is not to shut the inner child up, but instead to accept how she feels- the hardest thing IMO...
and not just so that i can have a relationship at the end of the day. That shouldn't be the aim otherwise the IC will feel rushed and like an inconvenience (then you are repeating part of why she hid from you in the first place)

Knowing how to take care of yourself...how does one do that? Where do you start?
Instead of repeating patterns, how do you get to whats *under there?*, because all thats happening is this part of me who has these feelings that i as a child, separated into another part, keeps coming back with these feelings.
Im afraid to listen to her and i don't know how.

Dee, we seem to be on the same lines of thinking.
The best person i believe, to take care of you, is you, as when you are able to figure it out, only you knows what you really need. And only you has walked in your shoes.

When I do date again, I want the guy to be drawn to a healthy, self reliant person.  Not a person that can be taken advantage of or controlled.

Yes,    :thumb:
That is an amazing way to think of it.
I want the next guy i date to not be controlling, to not need to be with me because I'm part of the puzzle he is trying to fix in his life, and i want him to accept my own self reliance. I want myself to be able to allow some of the walls to come down, and for him in turn, to actually accept what he sees.

I have never been described as being resilient before, thanks Dee.
I hope you find what you wish for, you deserve that. 

Wife2, thanks for your thoughts.

one facet of this crush is the desire to matter enough,
to be worthy of attention and affection.

Maybe you are right.
I seem to want all the things i push away and fear.
I do think that people just say things and don't really mean them...everyones out for their own gain...Its like i want what i can never have, as it never ends up ...ok.
I guess i want to believe he cares, but like all the others, he might not. Perhaps he took the place of my father this christmas.
Perhaps somewhere deep down, i don't feel good enough, and maybe this is a manifestation of that.
I do think its something to do * my dad. I definitely have *father issues*, but i know that in reality, i would never let anyone else try to help me..because i have never bene able to. And its not their job. I know it has to come from inside of me, and its always been that way. Perhaps i just want it to be different.

If i give into my...intense feelings...im afraid ill just feel..feelings of longing..and thoes feelings are painful to me. I think i may be getting to something here. I created another dissociative part of me who holds those feelings that as a child, was futile in having, and now I'm afraid to go near them.

radical, I understand all you are saying, and thanks. I did think you were judging, but i appreciate your second reply clarifying what you meant.
The reason I am looking to where this may be coming from, is because i am very very aware that I am in no way ready for a relationship, and I think that there is possibly something deeper going on here, with in myself.
The relationship i had with my now X, was for a reason- for both of us, -only i used it in the end, once i realised about trauma etc. to help me to learn and grow, part of the reason it broke down.
I cant have a relationship, and a lot of the time, don't wish for one, as i just think that even though i have changed so much in the way i relate to others, that it might just be disastrous, as i havent finished working on myself and the kinds of people I attract.
And besides, i feel safer now that i am on my own.
I just want these feelings to go away.

Maybe i am *in my mind* repeating what happened with my father...the emotional incest- hense the attraction to *older men*, though i do find that I don't relate as much at all, to people that are my age.  And i read that a person can have an addictive attraction to men in order to repeat what happened but it usually all ends badly.  (i have experienced this more than once)

Don't know if anyone else here finds this and i don't mean to sound big headed, but i think that i have a lot more life experience and inside into life than most people my age. I feel older than my years and think about life a lot differently than others, things that i can share or have in common with anyone on the outside.
I know i have to figure out who I am, and that that isn't a good starting point for a relationship.
I was hoping that with my last partner, that we could both learn and grow together, but he just couldn't do it, as it was too frightening for him on his part.

Can I ask..?..Do you think that there is more chance of being hurt by someone who is older than you, apposed to someone who is near your age?
My X had his own trauma responses and he hurt me very much, as i did him and he was only a year older.

I have a feeling that this guy wouldn't want to work on his own *stuff* or progress spiritually in the way that I do, (like my X didnt) and being really honest and realistic, i would idealy need a partner who does or who has already done the work

As for the flirting, he might not mean it that way, i don't know...but my T did think that it wasnt ok that he sort of...went all cold on him finding out i had feelings for him.

I agree that I am vulnerable, as much as I hate to admit it.
Would you mind explaining what you meant, when you said that i am achingly needy?
I know i have a lot of needs that weren't met by FOO, and that I need to meet them myself.
My T says that there is nothing wrong with wanting connection with others, and that its ok and normal to have some needs met by others. I have always tried to meet my own needs, yes in unhealthy ways, and the hardest thing for me is letting anyone help me or be close- equals this conflict.

If anyone has any insight or experience, or can form any possible connections for me, please do let me know what you think.


Tried to not like this person after i did, after finding out they didnt feel the same way, and the age gap -they are very aware of.
Now the feelings are back.
Part of me thinks this is normal, and part of me wonders if its to do with someone in the past- a parent, or even both.

Theres so much he doesnt know about me. And so much he doesnt see because of the age gap.
I think ive already got him figured out, and i want to connect.
Similar childhood experiences..(though not sure to what extent)..
he is closed off..possibly what you might call, counter dependant ..
weird, but in a good way...
Dont know how to offer him my support with out sounding too clingy or engulfing, but worry I'm not saying what I'm thinking in terms of being here for him when maybe i should just say it.
Im being patient with him and his closed off ness because I'm like that, though it is a desperate need i have to reach in further and drag some him out.
I wish he could see past my age.
Sometimes its like he sees me and what I'm not saying, and other times its as though he doesnt and i can't be my quirky self with him even though he's into that,  so my quirky Aquarious rising ways are stifled behind a wall and i may just come across as laughing a lot and immature.
He's the sort of guy who calls me hun- his moon is in capricorn, and apparently, men are very friendly with this placement which can lead women on.
We are both the type of people who hold back feelings, so there would be some distance between us.
I feel so embarrassed after seeing him today, now that the feelings have come back, always fearing ill stay the wrong thing...so I'm holding back.
I don't feel *good* anymore and just a bit let down, but its really only because of my own stupid fantasises ..is it?
what is wrong with me???
It hurts that i can't show him i care because I'm worried he will freak out at that, and maybe I'm afraid ill be rejected and look like the needy one.

I think i can sort of figure out psychologically speaking why I'm drawn to him, but i can't access the pain as I'm not exactly sure what it relates to from my past (as I'm sure it does)
but i do think that thinking about him takes me away from my own world, but what am i running from?

So...Im here! Hope everyone is doing ok.
I survived, but...there wasnt much to survive on the actually day, which was just great.
And i think ive been pretty numb. Just watching things go by.
Anyway, still here and ok.

Dad sent a text Christmas eve, not mentioning what happened, but i didnt care about that.
His text made me sad...and i don't know what s going on- but ill talk to my T about it in Jan.

Wrote a little note to the only housemate that is in the house at the moment and left it on the couch, saying that i hope she's ok and that I'm sorry i advent been around to ask her what she was doing for christmas.
Hope that wasnt a bad thing to do, I'm trying to reach out in the only way i felt comfortable doing so. Very unlike me, but there you go. I hope the is a good thing and a positive step.

Heard her go out xmas day morning but i wasnt awake then.
Said that i hate not being able to be around...and that thats not who i am, and that..maybe we can hang out when I'm back. Just came out for coffee..she was still upstairs.
I really hope she's not down...
and feel like a terrible person, racked with guilt that i couldn't make sure she wasnt alone on the day. (the guy friend i spent it with wanted it to be just us..he is nervous around others too), so i couldn't please everyone.
Its not my fault i got so triggered with shame due to therapy topics discussed, and fear and anxiety about being around other women, but it feeds into that whole family thing that happened- guilt.
Hopefully it will all be ok.

Hey Cc.

I have been surprised at the amount of aha moments.... I have felt alone and like I dont fit in my whole life.

Oh yes, can relate.

I am sorry you have difficulty connecting to others. I have read from Pete Walker that interpersonal relationships are especially hard and is where most of our triggers lie because we were hurt in our first experiences of interpersonal relationships.

Most likely, you were forced into the roll of pleasing others and taking care of others needs earlier in your life, that your own were not forfilled- sense feeling resentful. If you are giving too much to others in your life now, i just want you to know that its not your fault.
People are taught certain ways to be, and maybe you were taught this.
AND no matter how you are- no matter if you are giving too much than you are getting back-
that does not give anyone reason to mistreat you- it doesnt make it *ok*.

I wonder too if people are worth connecting too.  Thought that people are all just the same, that they will let me down also.
but then i try to hold onto the hope that, I am attracting what happened to me, through other people and am attracting other who share the same view i have of myself. - who treat me the way i think i expect i should be treated.
I know i have my own wounds to work through, therefore my own wounds slot into the other persons like a jigsaw piece- and thats not my fault.

I understand totally what you are saying about your doubts with others .You have every right to doubt as you may have bene hurt. You have every right to distrust.
it is a lot to try to connect when you have been hurt / used etc. in relationships.
I would say, if you are able to, to remember that and to be patient and gentle with yourself. In time, with healing, it will come. 

Thank you for sharing that bring em all in.
Isn't it eye opening when you start reading?
Yes, that is how i feel. With my X i was so angry sometimes the guilt was berried, but yes, i do.
Im sorry you had similar experiences in your FOO with anger.
It can get you into dangerous and unfair situations as an adult with an inability to say *no*.

My problem i guess, is weather or not i deserve to feel the guilt (which might be part of the childhood programming and the narc stuff)...
Thanks again, for letting me know I'm not alone. 

Hey bring em all in,
Thank you for your reply, especially as its close to xmas.

Your post didnt come across as narcissistic to me at all (i worry too about that in my posts to others)

I hate it when people tell me what I SHOULD/SHOULD NOT think/feel/do and I try my best not to should on anyone else.

Me too! Its so nice to have someone else who also thinks that, when it seems that the rest of the world does exactly the opposite! Im sure i did at one point cos i was brought up that way and didnt know any better, but know i know its like..ahhh!

I am glad that you are glad that I'm using the forum. I get weirded about that...about what it looks like and what others think. I have been trying to shorten my posts as they are long.

Haha, well, welcome to the forum!
Im so sorry you felt so awful last night. What did you do in the end? Did anyone know?
Hugs to you. 
You are right, CPTSD and what happened to cause it is serious.

I've learned not to minimize and get caught up in "I'm lucky that..." thinking. It's one thing for me to be grateful for what I have and for how bad things could have been, but that doesn't mean I deserved or should forget what did happen. My mother died in 2009 and my dad in 2012 and I still have emotional flashbacks that leave me feeling like a 7-year old boy freezing and fawning to curry favor with others.

Im sorry things were so tough. You are right, and its so refreshing to hear you say that- about not invaliding yourself.
I guess i do worry that others would think this is nothing, even if its not, and i guess we have to take into account the flashbacks. I realised that being homeless would be awful..(that might have been an EF in itself as its similar to the abandonment fear I'm feeling right not about my dad)
but being homeless is another type of ...difficulty.
The fact that you have a home / place to stay- you do appreciate- but that doesnt take away the pain of other things that are happening.
And i guess i felt guilty about that. Man. Whats with that?

I agree, his behaviour does seem narcissistic. Not sure if he is a narcissist but doesnt have to be of course to have narcissistic behaviour.
He could be a different type of narc to my mum.

Yes, your experience sounds like what is happening with my dad (emotional incest)
Only found out what was happening this time last year and i wonder if I'm feeling *too responsible* for this situation.
Thank you so much for the book recommendation. I have that one but havent read it yet.
Its so great to hear that it helped you to understand *why* you feel the way you do, and what you can do about it ..not about the feelings.
I have heard that instead of trying to understand or rationalise or make logical, to just feel your feelings no matter how awful they feel.
Easier said than done at times...sometimes feeling what you feel, then finding out why can help take some of the pain away i find.

I love Pete Walker also. Great book.
One Ive just read is called *Silently seduced, when parents make children their partners*.
Trigger warnings and if you havent read, may leave your head spinning.

Yes, i totally agree, that our parents are the way they are because of their own childhood experiences. Knowing that always make me feel understanding but i know i need to leave it at that and not get sucked into anything or just accept what they are doing.

You have helped me, very much, by being here, wanting to help, for taking the time to read my long post and for letting me know I'm not alone, and that I'm in your thoughts.
I know it sounds cheesy, but that means the world to me.
You are in my thoughts too.