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Very interesting! I think if we're touch deprived we need that feeling of being held and soothed rather then being "worked on" as you say. I'm glad to hear you went for the CST therapy after your experience with the Korean massage. It's lovely that you were able to feel grief and comfort at the same time.

I had something similar happen when I had cancer some years back. I made the decision to have my hair shaved which was recommended by a woman's cancer group I attended. I was scared and upset understandably, but I came to see why it was a good thing to do. They made the whole thing into a kind of ritual of being cared for and held in my grief. Once my head was shaved, they gently washed my scalp and then gave me a long, soft head massage in a room with soft light and music. It was absolutely wonderful. As you experienced, it somehow balanced the grief, sadness and fear I was feeling. They gave me a lock of hair as I was leaving and suggested I burn it. My H and I did so in our fire pit and it was like sending my cancer out to the universe.

Our stories do make me sad I must say. It highlights just how much we needed caring touch and holding when we were children and I can't help think how much better off life would have been if we had been. I also can't help thinking about those who were sexually/physically abused and became touch adverse. It would be so much harder to break down those walls and try some healthy physical touch. CPTSD is a beast.

Oh Stussy, I am so sorry to hear this Yes, I've also worried about what my trauma has done and does to my H and S. It is out in the open though and we do talk about it which helps. I try not to let my symptoms spill over onto either of them, but it happens sometimes and then I make sure I apologize. I think letting them know I really care that my trauma affects them has been key to helping us all to deal with it.  Sometimes it's just really hard though I know.

Just some thoughts but have you and he ever considered couples therapy with a therapist who understands trauma? Or maybe he needs a therapist of his own, someone he can talk to to help him deal with the stress?

Tks Dolly. For everyone's information Here's a link to Ingrid Clayton's book - https://www.amazon.ca/Fawning-Need-Please-Makes-Ourselves-ebook/dp/B0DPYJPL9R and one of the videos (not sure if it's the one NK posted) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7-njK7kiM. 

I had not heard of her work before but from the sample provided at the link she does a good job of explaining what fawning is, why we do it, and most important of all, how to step away from it. 

Books like hers and the many others we tend to read are good, great in fact at putting things into words things we feel or know but aren't quite able to bring to the surface and articulate. As the saying goes though, "If you can name it, you can tame it."

Just my thoughts Pelican but it might be an idea to see your GP as there could be something physical going on, especially given you have a regular fitness routine. You may need some lab work to see what if anything is going on.

I will say that the stress of CPTSD often does have the effect of draining us of energy so you may want to bring this up with them although they may not know about complex trauma. If such is the case there is a download here you could give to them. Sadly, sometimes we have to educate our healthcare professionals about trauma as it is not taught regularly in university medicine programs just yet.

Hey Layla, yes Wobbly has not been back on the forum since they posted unfortunately. I did want to say, however, to you and other members that oftentimes when someone posts to an old thread it sparks some good discussion around the topic. Plus, it helps you as the new poster to think through an issue yourself sometimes.

So I say even if a thread is old go ahead and post   

This topic has been moved to Conferences/Courses.

https://www.cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=17115.0

[she was making me invisible in the process]

It is difficult Big Blue, or at least it was for me. I pretty much had to stop myself each time for a long while and figure out if I was other referencing. If I did not feel like I/my needs were being taken into account, either by me or the other person I would make a real effort to pull back inside my body and end the one-sided dialogue ASAP.

When my NM was alive she would talk right over top of me (and I let her because if I didn't she would do the hurt thing) until one day I could see very clearly she was making me invisible in the process and it really hurt every time she did it). I just up and calmly and firmly said something to the effect of "Wait a minute please, I didn't finish what I was saying" and it stopped her cold. The next time she did it I out and out told her she needed to stop talking over top of me, that it was rude and made me feel bad. She was very much taken aback but she finally learned I had boundaries, that I was not just a set of ears put on this earth to listen to her prattle on and on.

A bit of a chuckle - my H is awesome at dealing with people who hog the stage. We had a neighbour some time back who would talk endlessly and had me caught one day. My H just started up the lawnmower near where we were talking and that gave me an out. Can't talk over that!     

Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm Layla 

Good for you on your recovery, you've done some amazing work!    I think you'll find this group will help too as we do get it. 

Hi Mamatus:

I'm sorry you are having a particularly tough time at the moment. Over the years here there seems to be two main ways members deal with the Inner Critic that work. The first is to challenge what it is saying to you. The second is to make peace with your ICr by talking with it and calming it (E.g., I know you're trying to help me stay safe by keeping me quiet, isolated and invisible but I've got this now, I will keep us safe). 

The first worked best for me because when I compared myself to those who abused me and others who were not exactly positive human beings, the criticisms just did not hold up. I began to see myself as what I truly am and that is a decent, caring person who does not hurt others.

Whatever works for you of course   

Hey Big Blue, as often happens when I read your posts I find myself saying "Yes!"

Several years ago I came across something to do with the being "other-referenced" versus "self-referenced". It rang so true because in my family of origin I had to constantly be on the lookout for anger leading to abuse/neglect so I was very "other-referenced" as a way of keeping as safe as I could. This carried over to all my encounters with others and I kept losing myself. I did not know who I was and how to reside in my own body. I always allowed myself to be pulled out by others and the main strategy I had was to be overly interested in them and overly empathetic to anything they were going through. It was a kind of fawning response but it did keep me safe or so I thought. What that led to is as you write "And what emerges is exactly what hurts so deeply: the feeling that something fundamentally human - reciprocal empathy - is missing."  I did not ask for reciprocity, I made it seem like I didn't need it so of course people were happy to talk about themselves. It's not something that grows genuine relationships though.

At some point I knew I had to start self-referencing and it was difficult I will admit. There was no roadmap other than when I felt myself being overly concerned with others I needed to pull back and try to look after me. That felt selfish for the longest while. I also starting pulling back from people who only have the capacity to talk about themselves. Now people who do that actually make me angry because I grew up with N's and it drags me back to my roots, a place I don't want to go. When you can't get a word in edgewise it says something about that person, and it's nothing I want to rescue them from anymore or expend my energy on. That sounds a bit brutal as I write it, but I am not talking about people who need genuine empathy, support, compassion, etc. It's those who are only to happy to take up airspace without reciprocity - big red flag for me these days.

Anyway, now I feel like I am much more regulated which is to say it feels like I have an authentic interest in others and genuine empathy that I don't get lost in. I do still have to watch myself because old habits die hard, but what helps is knowing about being self versus other referenced. I can hear myself telling myself nowadays to stay in my body and make sure I remain regulated in relationships.

Great post, thanks!

Awesome post TBB!  This would make a great article for the OOTS Blog if you ever feel like you want to write it up. (No pressure though). The blog is here - https://www.outofthestorm.website/guest-bloggers.

That's awesome Teddy Bear! I'd be interested to hear what the study is about if you're allowed to share about it.

Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm Mammatus

A lot of us here are very familiar with perfectionism and being high achieving that never quite seems to fill in the emptiness and leaves us exhausted. It's tough we know so I'm glad you found us. I hope you find it helps to talk with others who do know what you are going through and can share what helped them and provide some support/comfort so those dark days are not quite as lonely and bleak.

 

Hey Blue Sky, big hug as I know that would definitely stir up a lot of emotions for the reasons NK suggests 

I know one place my mind went to is "Will he abuse her too?" I wonder what if anything he thinks to himself knowing what what he did to you now that he has a child. Maybe he's able to stuff it down but hopefully she will like "a burr under the saddle" for him. We can only hope.
 

SO, I don't speak French but tks for being willing to look up the link. 

It is rather depressing to hear of so much predatory sexual abuse/trafficking in the news at the moment. At the same time, I think (hope) this is a wake up call about what is happening behind a LOT of closed doors.

I see so many resigning/ being fired in the fallout from the Epstein files and it gives me hope that we can hold abusers accountable, even if they are rich and powerful. I must admit I cheered when King Charles stripped his brother Andrew of his titles and royal goodies. It sends a very powerful message worldwide and we need that, to know that powerful people will be outed and punished. I know Trump hasn't been but I think (hope) that it's a matter of when not if.  Fingers crossed!