Messages

Gromit, thank you so much for posting this topic! I have a very severe case of scoliosis which is now giving me big-time problems in later-midlife. I was diagnosed in my pre-teens. I am adult-child of two uPD parents (NPD & BPD). I only came to realize their unofficial diagnosis a few years ago. I often thought the scoliosis was caused by a surgery I had as a young kid, which could have started a pattern, but I also have wondered how much is emotional "bracing" ... now in my adulthood I see how fearful I am of my father, and how overbearing both of my parents were and still are. The level of infantilizing and subverting in my FOO is quite severe, so perhaps my muscles responded by shrinking further into myself and twisting myself to accommodate them. It really makes sense. Thanks for reminding me of the psychological connection, and also the crawling exercise which someone once taught me many decades ago that I totally forgot until now!

Hi Blueberry - no problem, it's okay Actually I did go and it went far better than I feared! So I don't feel any worse off, thank God. My 'detached contact' seems to be working okay.

Hi Three Roses - actually I do have the Kindle version of Pete Walker's CPTSD book, and so far I have only read bits and pieces in small doses. Thanks for the reminder, I should probably explore that more, esp. parts about flight/freeze. I can't say I've gotten deep enough into the book to see what to do, although I do have a printout of the 13 steps for EF management which is good. I'm not really in a panic state like I was many months ago, so that is an improvement now that I think of it. I'm more like in a long, extended, dissociated state of mind and that's what I have to see what he says in the book I guess. I have not heard of the other book, will check out. Yes, I would love to have the links if you could post them here, thanks!

I'm having trouble grasping the reality of my situation, that I've been stuck in the 'off' position of freeze mode for the last 2 years - and NOTHING seems to be enough to break me out of it! Even the prospect of potentially being homeless for a 3rd time. I can't get myself to apply for jobs. This has gone on for far too long. I thought that finally leaving my NPD parents' home would be enough to snap me into reality, but instead it's like I'm still recovering from them & my past losses. I cannot go to therapy because that would mean asking them for money to fix a problem largely caused by their psychological abuse. A part of me is so damaged by decades of money problems and career disappointments, that I think I don't want to go through it again so I avoid everything to do with employment, even though this is not acceptable. I am months away from not being able to afford the new place I finally got.

I get the strong feeling that my flight/freeze mode is essentially a form of dissociation, but I haven't the slightest idea how to work my way out of this ... anyone in a similar situation? Or anyone with any ideas of what to do about this? Thanks.

Hi, I came over to this "frustrated" part of the forum after seeing the note about the "difficult day" forum. I'm thinking what do we do when EVERY day is a difficult day? So I came over here and saw your post

I've also quit jobs before before finding new ones. There are times when I got so triggered at jobs that I actually walked off the job. Literally packed up my desk at the end of the work day without telling anyone, cleaned all my stuff out, and just never went back. That's how bad it's been for me. I've had issues keeping jobs and applying for jobs. My last one I held onto though until there was a big layoff, and I've been in a frozen state having difficulty getting a new one since then. I waste an enormous amount of time when I could be trying harder to get one. I'm only here today because I just don't know how to handle this issue anymore, and I'm really, really depressed about it too.

It sounds like you based your self-worth on your job performance (perfectionism), and depression I think is the flip side of anxiety, they go together usually. You sound like me in the Flight trauma defense that Pete Walker talks about in his book about the 4 F's. I am usually in Flight or Freeze due to my CPTSD from being in a 100-percent covert narcissistic family.

I think it's so great that you cleaned your house & revamped your resume. Maybe it would be easier to find a job that isn't so performance-based like a call center, like something that gives more room for imperfections, like working on phases of a project.

As for how to cope, I can say what I'm going to try to do today ... read my two books on hidden abuse and CPTSD, and try to find just one job that I can apply to by midnight tonight. My goal is to gradually apply for one more each day until I'm up to 10 each day. I'm hoping that's not too perfectionistic, but I'm trying to take action without it feeling like too much at once.

Anyway, I really just posted to say hang in there, you're not alone, there's people like us.

I'm asking the same question. I feel like it's too late for me. I've kind of given up at this point. I just feel like the damage has been done. I don't think I ever stood a chance of knowing how to relate to most people, being raised in a completely narcissistic home. I'm in the minority (meaning, the introverted one or just different one) in every social circle I've ever been in. I've had friends plenty of times before, but nothing ever lasts over the long term. Something always goes wrong, or I go through another phase of a changing identity so I'm not able to keep the same people in my life. I could go out there and try again, but this time I don't feel like putting myself out there. I've already been there, done that too many times to count. I just left a recovery group online because I felt rejected, like there was some bad vibe going on behind the scenes after one person was mean to me. Sometimes the paranoia about it is warranted, sometimes probably not. I don't know how to get past this or to have relationships with people in general anymore. I'm grateful for at least one friend in my life, but when you spend most of your time isolated outside of that because no marriage, no kids, no contact with narc. family ...  I'm just tired of trying and failing.

*trigger warning re: therapists having boundaries*

I saw this article and found it pretty shocking. It mentions that a T who would do this is likely a psychopath.
I think it's just something good to be aware of, considering we are recovering from PD people.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/06/04/sexual-misconduct-therapists-may-more-common-than-you-think/lHh2CLBcxHF6bdDH1coWCO/story.html

Hi Kizzie, thanks, yes I have definitely set boundaries with both of them but BPD I have to come up with excuses, which works for getting physical boundaries (not in my home) but still makes me feel stressed emotionally. Like you said, it's that engulfing, objectifying type of vibe. She gives me the feeling like I'm some kind of toy doll or something. She tries in her own way to appear respectful, but she's a strong-willed BPD, so no, she will never be able to change. Her flowery, love-bombing language bothers me most of all, just makes me cringe! As for finances, I'm trying really hard to just get a job. Once I'm able to have one again, I think things will feel a lot better for me. Thanks so much for your response! I'm so grateful that there is someone like you who understands how this feels

Hi SAL27, I can so relate to your post, because I had a repressed body memory come up during bodywork many years ago, and told a T about it (a male T) who told me "even if it's true, it's best to leave it in the past - it might not be true so it's better to just leave it alone" - I was like, huh? Nice solution!

I have been to many T's in the past, but I have not been to any since I became conscious of what I believe happened to me at about age 6 (and possibly multiple times much younger). Part of my memory is blacked out, but the physical memory is vivid, always has been. I don't listen to or trust T's for the final word on anything in my life and you know why? Because every single one of them never properly diagnosed me with what I now know is C-PTSD! How could they not have figured out that my family are N/B PDs? How could they not tell I was a survivor of psych. abuse? I find it infuriating. I got every other diagnosis based on symptoms like anxiety & depression & codependency. But it had to take me into middle age to finally realize the real problem? And I had to figure it out on my own? Yes! This is why I honestly don't care if I never go to another T again. Part of me thinks it could help if I present them with what I know first & they're willing to work with it, but part of me doesn't care & just wants to therapize myself.

I would say trust your gut instinct, you know on some level even if it's not consciously clear. The body knows, the heart knows, the emotions know.

Yes. On one hand, it was liberating & empowering seeing those women have a court victory, but then when they give graphic details of their stories on TV or news, it is very triggering. It's not the kind of thing I want to just hear about out of the blue & get all the bad memories going again. It's definitely a double-edged sword. The hard part about it is that when I see a story come up in the news, because I am a survivor of several scenarios, I feel automatically compelled to read or watch about what they went through. I was like this many years ago too before I was aware that I had been SA. Always drawn to reading the books of celebrities describing their SA. What is that? Why the compelling need to know the stories, when I know they will be triggering or painful? What is that about? Why can't I just say to myself, no, don't read or watch that. You don't need the trigger. There are times I've done that, but most of the time I give in.

p.s. andyman73 - regarding the feeling of being left out, I can understand because for me that feeling comes from being an adult survivor of narcissists/borderline who are COVERTS. I cannot really point to obvious overt behavior that most associate with abuse (like physical or verbal) - most of what I've been through is not visible, it is hidden but soul-crushing nonetheless. I constantly feel the need to shout out 'my abusers are COVERTS! you might think they seem like great people! no one can see but the damage is infinite! Maybe they did do things overt - but there's not enough proof' ... so I hear where you're coming from. As for #MeToo, you are absolutely included.

I am a female adult in middle age - so why the * am I being subject to weirdness regarding my BPDm? Like the emotional sexualization from my NPDf was not enough? It appears that BOTH of them do this. It makes me cringe with disgust - I am badly triggered today because of a weird text from her.

Because they are both COVERTS, I will never get 'proof' of any of this - that plausible deniability thing? My m worded this text in a really gross, creepy way like she was in love with me and wanted to be with me, something about 'enjoy each other' - I don't know if she meant doing something that we could enjoy 'WITH' each other - but she LEFT OUT THE WORD 'WITH' .... this is one of those crazy-making things that coverts do, that screw up survivors' lives more than anyone can imagine! This kind of stuff will destroy a person's soul just as much as if they'd been beaten - because it can't be identified, there's no proof, makes you confused & feeling like you're going crazy.

I feel like I am the object of desire in my FOO. I am not joking. There are too many instances of inappropriate emotional sexualization. I'm not going to give examples right now, because I just can't.

I just feel so GROSS right now. I can't tolerate the sickeningly sweet, overly mushy, love-bombing things BPDm writes to me - it literally makes me want to throw up. This woman is nuts. I don't want to hang out with her. I don't want to go anywhere with her. But she is making me feel obligated and it's driving me crazy. I can't go NC because they are helping me pay bills - this is the nightmare web I am caught in with this FOO. I want to get out, but my CPTSD has been so bad for 1.5 years, that I just feel paralyzed where getting a job is concerned. I have run out of time and I know I need to take quick action. I'm trying to just read Pete Walker's book, because I cannot handle going to a therapist. I feel it will actually cause me more problems because I have a lot of fears about revealing my life to people. Even doing it online I have a deep sense of shame & paranoia, but I feel I need to share to get through this & recover. Does anyone else here feel this way? I write all these posts, then want to delete them because of the toxic shame & fear of getting found out. Maybe the fear is induced by my FOO and I'm just projecting it.

Anyway ... I also had circumstantial evidence that I was probably molested as a young child. Again, I have no proof, because part of the memory is blacked out. The problem for me now as an adult is not sexual, but rather emotional. It is the emotional CRINGE factor that makes all of this so bad.

Hi, I think it can't hurt to at least find out from your friends if your Nm contacted them. It would at least ease your mind to know. And you could always explain to them what kind of mother you have - that she's not the typical normal mother so they understand.

I don't know if my situation is any similar, but I have a deep fear & suspicion of my NPDf & BPDm, esp. because of the shenanigans they have pulled on me in the past, like the N hiring a PI to stalk me, both of them letting me go homeless to teach me a lesson, and my N's verbally abusive rages when I was living with them after I lost everything. My m is love-bombing me like crazy right now, trying to get me to have her over my place, and I already set a boundary that I do NOT want any family members in my place - however, now that I think of it, the boundary was only really set with the Nf - and I don't know how to quite tell the Bm, as it will make her feel rejected.

I also feel a sense of fear (maybe it could be called paranoia just because of how these people have treated me, so if it's that it would be well-founded!) I have fears that if I call her back, I will get entrapped by something she says or asks me, which could make things worse for me (I have good reason for this) - but then if I DON'T respond to her at all, I fear their covert manipulations behind the scenes could also make things worse for me. There NEVER seems to be a "right" way to deal with these people, except total no contact, but I am under obligation because they are paying some of my bills. Part of the narcissistic abuse in my FOO is extreme financial control & manipulation so that's how I got caught in their web. They incapacitated me emotionally and I finally broke down after too many roller coasters, which then put me further in need & under their control.

My Nf is a master guilt-tripper, called me entitled, spoiled, etc. (as a child I was called selfish & lazy) - even though they are the ones with all that money can buy while I live like a pauper. He loves to guilt-trip me like I'm a bad daughter, because apparently I was supposed to 'take care of' them in their old age, even though they are just fine, and I am the one who always has all the problems. Since I have nothing to actually give them, I suppose what they want is constant adoration & affection, which I just can't give.

Based on how I saw my malignant Nf treat me, I absolutely know that they are capable of damaging our relationships with others behind the scenes. They will stalk (or hire others to track), and they certainly will triangulate if you have a sibling (mine is their GC, and he is hopelessly enmeshed with my Nf, especially financially - GC has no backbone whatsoever when it comes to the N). My sibling used to be my best friend - but he decided I guess it was more lucrative for him to fawn to the Ns, and it is basically 3 against 1 now.

So if there is any degree of paranoia, we are justified in that feeling - this is what I believe a "malignant" narcissist would do. And I'm noticing that maybe how I feel around my FOO is why I feel this fear in general, that gets projected to so many other areas of my life. It's a feeling in general that everyone is out to get me. How can I feel safe in a world where I am afraid of my own family?

Sorry I'm going off about my own situation ... but I thank you for sharing that you feel something bordering on p, because this has been really bothering me too.

@RunningMan, I can only speak for myself in answer to your question. I am not officially diagnosed with CPTSD, but I now clearly know I have it, as I was raised by two narcissists (one who is borderline with narc. traits - they are both also undiagnosed - but ...)

The greatest quality a partner of CPTSD can have is flexibility. CPTSD with the emotional flashbacks brings on a range of cycles of emotions - we can be empowered one day, and hiding in a room the next. That's at least what I go through.

I do not deal well with pressure from people, ever. I have a lot of issues with control & power due to being psychologically manipulated by narcs. I characterize this issue like pathways in my brain that are twisted or crossed. I won't react the way a regular person will react to certain things. For example, the more you pressure me to do something, the more I will resist. However, if I'm the one who feels in control, then I might very likely proceed with the very same action on my own. The minute you press or prompt me, I'm headed for the hills. So someone has to understand this about me and if they're flexible with it, we're fine. I go through many days, weeks, months where I have to "ramp up" in order to face some type of life task or situation - I find certain things stressful and need time to build up to it, push through it, then come down from it during a recovery phase. "Just do it" doesn't work for me.

Don't tell someone with CPTSD "oh you're being too sensitive" or "you need to do this, this and this ..." - it devalues the very real emotional flashbacks we go through (and in my case, this is exactly what the narcissist/borderline in my life did to me to cause the damage in the first place). Acceptance of our cycles is critical to getting along well with us. I deal with someone best who simply understands, accepts and doesn't pressure me or dump advice on me every minute (unless I ask for it).

And I agree esp. with that first point from Cadie - our behaviors are very varied, and look like a million different disorders - anxiety, depression, codependency, etc. These are all just symptoms originating from the broken foundation caused by our trauma, abuse, manipulation or neglect. We are injured, not mentally ill or crazy. We are operating in one or more of the 4 trauma responses at any given time if we are triggered. The best education on this I'm finding is Pete Walker's book which I have only just begun reading myself but instantly resonated with.

Above all, just let us go through what we're going through (this might be total dissociation, or very intense emotions). It usually does pass, but if it doesn't, it is okay to gently suggest seeking help but ultimately that has to come from the person themselves.

Now that I've been out of their house for about a month, I am relieved to not be in a state of hypervigilance wondering when the next figurative "dart" will hit me. (Dart being their emotional/verbal/psychological manipulations & attacks)

But I am back to my isolated life & emotionally flashback-ing all over the place. I woke up in this acute state of fear/panic today. It took ALL the energy I had to just face some scary tasks last week involving people & phone calls - but since I did those last week, I have not been able to stay in that state of empowerment - I've slipped once again into avoidant freeze/flight. UGH.

On morning like this, especially rainy Monday, I find it impossible to face life. Anyone else go through this? It's something I have to just ride out like a wave. Forced action will not happen - I would only further resist. I saw a video on YT Surviving to Thriving & she suggests a breathing technique & acupressure points to normalize my amygdala from chronic hypervigilance. I guess I need to accept that this is where I'm at right now, and not be angry at myself. The temptation is for the Inner Critic to really let me have it for all of my avoidance behaviors. Note to self: It's NOT YOUR FAULT. THIS TOO SHALL PASS.

Hi, you have been through a harrowing experience. Just want you to know I can relate to the overall feeling of it still hurting even after you're "free" ... I went through several episodes with my covert narcissist father where he kept writing me notes that he would slip under my door. Some of the things he wrote were so piercing to my soul, I just couldn't believe a father would say such things to his own adult daughter. Evil stuff like 'your grandparents would be rolling over in their grave if ...' and a fake apology coupled with the supposed need for ME to apologize to him for nonsense things from the past (that's his forte, dragging long-gone subjects from decades ago back up to torment me with and guilt-trip me). The greatest pain I have is that I can never feel emotionally safe with my NF (undiagnosed) even though I can go months with him being perfectly well behaved and nice (this is the pure evil of the covert type, who resemble snakes). I am thankfully FREE of living in his house - but emotionally I still feel afraid of him and probably always will, and I have a hefty case of complex PTSD that I have to contend with daily.

One thing you are VERY blessed with is that your ex was officially diagnosed with BPD/N! I don't know if you realize what a gift this is, because it is your confirmation of something many of us never get. We KNOW they are B/N, but I'm guessing most will never put themselves in situations to ever be officially diagnosed. You now have the opportunity to teach your children what this means, and use this knowledge to validate your positions with your children vs. how he acts with them. Maybe a therapist someday can help you figure out the best way to handle that knowledge with children, but at least it's a starting point. That knowledge is power!

Speaking of videos ... those narc. videos on YT were my lifesaver as I finally learned * was wrong with my family. God bless the narc. community on YT! The two books helping me are Pete Walker's on CPTSD, and Hidden Abuse by Shannon Thomas (for those abused by covert PDs).

Thanks Three Roses for those links!

To Bajco if you come back to the forum, my CPTSD is also a result of COVERT abuse from a borderline & a narcissist.
I am utilizing these three sources of help:
1. Pete Walker's book on the subject
2. "Hidden Abuse" by Shannon Thomas - the only book I've seen that clearly deals with the hidden nature of covert abuse specifically
3. the Bible

I know I need a therapist at some point again - but just not quite ready to go there yet. You make a good point that just knowing what the problem is may not be enough to solve it, but rather just the starting point.