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Hi everyone,

I'm going to take a short break from OOTS. Something has triggered me, and it's a trigger closely connected to my initial trauma and to the time I was retraumatized. It's best if I deal with this first before I do anything else. I wish all of you all the best! 

schrödinger's cat

That was such a kind thing to say. Thanks, Rrecovery. 

Hm, about why we don't have friends... in my country, we have a word for when you're afraid of entering into a new situation that's as yet unfamiliar to you and that might be a teensy bit challenging. It translates as "threshold-fear". So I have threshold-fear when it comes to getting to know new people, because I'm rather self-conscious a lot of times. The second threshold is when I get to the stage where we'd really become friends, or close friends. I'm afraid they'll realize how awful I am and leave. So during each of those stages, I'm probably withdrawing and detaching without even noticing it: simply because that's what I do when I'm nervous. And other people might interpret my nervousness and tension as resentment or something. I'm usually not even aware of it, but I look quite grim and grumpy when I'm feeling tense. A bit like Wednesday Addams, just even grumpier. So I can see how that might discourage people.

All the hugs in the world, Rrecovery.     

I could relate to several parts of your story. It's only recently dawned on me that most of my friendships have ended badly. Of the people I was fondest of, three died - which, given how few friends I have, is a startlingly high number. Of the rest, four people broke things off because I was in trouble and would have needed support, and my role before had been to support them. Then there was one friend who just became distant and stopped contacting me. The rest just petered out. Aaand... that's it.

So now, I'm living like a hermit crab. I know I've got to go and find friends. But a large part of my subconscious remembers my previous friendships and goes: "Find friends?! Are you nuts?!!"

So your questions about loneliness are more or less like my own questions about loneliness.

One thing I wonder: what do you think, this persistent, agonizing emotional pain about being lonely - is that about the present or is it a flashback? Or both?

Thanks for asking, no_more_guilt. We're having to move out of our flat within the next year or two, which wouldn't be bad - but my oldest kid had a rough few years recently, and she's extremely close with her best friend... and as a highly sensitive child, she's finding change hard to deal with and prefers things to stay as they are. So the very thought of moving made her claw her way up the drapes. I was so afraid of traumatizing her. Also, in our town, rents are up and everyone keeps telling me it's nigh impossible to find anything. So there was this sense of insecurity and helplessness. That triggered a flashback to how I felt when we were in financial trouble and my mother didn't tell us: I grew up with this sense that we were hovering over a black abyss and might fall in any moment. It was a relief when I figured out that this fear was just a flashback: it was all about my past, not really about my present. Also, I talked to my kid just now, and she seemed totally calm and confident about the idea of moving to a suburb or to another town. I'm so relieved.

Trying to feel emotions is scary to me right now.

Yes, that's something many of us say. So I'm getting the impression that there's a time and a place for feeling emotions, particularly overwhelming ones. It's not ideal, feeling numb or purposely numbing and distracting ourselves. But if the alternative is getting flattened by flashbacky feelings, then... well, what can you do? It's sometimes just the only option, or it seems like that - to wait until we're feeling more stable, and to take it little by little, in very tiny portions.

I had no idea *families* could be narsasistic. Makes sense.  Thanks for the warning about taking it slow. Never done that with a book before. Just read and it hits you like a tonne of bricks.

Yes, I learned that the hard way, too.  We even have an emoticon for it: 

I see how a family with those sorts of problems would be very hard to grow up in. .....was that realisation hard for you or a shock? Or did you sort of expect it? Did you sense before that something was wrong at home?

Both. All of it. There was one incident where I suddenly realized that my mother keeps on crossing my boundaries, that she doesn't respect me at all, and that she's constantly distancing herself from me. THAT was a shock. It all made sense in hindsight, and I realized I'd always sensed that something was off. But I'd kept on explaining it away. I kept on thinking it was MY problem - that I'd caused it and that I simply had to do things the right way to fix it. In short, that I'd simply have to keep on jumping through hoops and things would turn out well, she'd finally like me and treat me with kindness. So when that house of cards collapsed, it was hard to digest. It felt mostly like grief, like abandonment. But you see, I'm now convinced that I can only heal if and as long as I'm keeping my distance from her. So that step was VERY necessary. And it was also a great relief to find out that it wasn't just me - that I'm not THAT unlovable or incompetent.

Before talking to you...it never occurred to me that trying to make everything ok and to please your parents or trying to be invisible etc etc. you put away parts of you...therefore your identify isn't totally there.
Rejection has a lot to do with it...but i never thought of this simple explanation...how can you have an identity and be yourself when your too busy trying to stay safe.

Yes, exactly. In abusive situations, so much of one's energy and brainpower is used to think up ways of pleasing our abusers, of dodging abuse, of being invisible. Meanwhile, our peers used that same energy and brainpower to discover themselves, to assume different roles and see which one fit, to explore the world... So if there's now this sense that we have deficits when it comes to a stable identity (or social skills etc) - well, we've come by it honestly. It wasn't our fault.

If I'm honest, I'm sometimes finding it enjoyable that I've got this fluid sense of identity, and that I'm not yet done finding my place in the world. Most days I find it annoying, but sometimes it just brings this incredible sense of freshness and newness to the whole world.

Thanks for asking how I'm doing. I'm better now - I had a flashbacky day yesterday, because we might have to move and I was afraid of not finding a place where my kids will be happy. My oldest seemed VERY against moving even to the next street, let alone to another town. She's the kind of kids who doesn't have many friends, but who's extremely loyal and close with the two, three friends she has. So taking her away from them? Yikes. And sometimes our kids' troubles triggers flashbacks to times when we were in a similar situation. But I talked to her just now, and she seemed a lot more open to the idea of moving elsewhere, without any panic or fear at all. PHEW.

Thanks for saying that, Cottonanx.

I could (should?) have asked for help from church and extended family, but I felt I would have to pay them back somehow, and I was already so overwhelmed that I couldn't do it. Besides, my job was making my parents look good, and asking for help would have made them look bad.

And from what you said, I'm not exactly getting the impression that you were ever in a role where you could ask for help and it was this natural, easy thing. You seem to have been the designated the helper, not the helpee. I mean, you were just a kid back then, younger than eighteen - and yet when you thought about having a grown-up help you, your first thought was: "ugh, I'll have to repay them". Isn't that how grown-ups interact among each other? So it sounds like you were simply THAT parentalized... or like your parents minimized and trivialized your workload and your deprivations THAT much... or maybe both.

Hi, Bruised Reed. I'm sorry to hear that your mother said such an awful thing to you. My mother made a few remarks on my looks, but they were a lot milder - and I still felt profoundly rejected. For a long time, I couldn't really remember many details of my childhood and teenage years, but I always, always remembered those things with crystal clarity, down to her matter-of-fact tone of voice, even where she stood while she said it. It's got to be so much worse for you.

So we're in the same boat.

It's making me feel really pissed off at both our mothers. Good grief, couldn't they have kept their mouths shut for just ONE moment? If they're insecure about themselves, fine. But to project all that insecurity onto a kid is just such a petty, thoughtless, cruel, enormously * thing to do.

I'm not sure I've got advice on how to shake it. I had a flashback yesterday, comparatively mild but long-lasting and unsettling, so it's not like I'm all that good at shaking them off myself. If I have time, I sometimes go to a coffeeshop and journal a bit, because getting the whole situation down on paper somehow makes it less... how do I put it... less like this brainwashed alternate reality I'm stuck in. Instead, it becomes something objective, something outside of myself, something I can look at and think about and grieve about.

Another thing that's helped is finding out just where I first had this feeling. So, yesterday I felt anxious, afraid, profoundly unsettled. Still do. But I'm now starting to realize it's because my father was ill, and my mother was very afraid and unsettled, and trying desperately to find a cure while also struggling with financial troubles a few times, and she was completely on her own and people around her hindered her instead of helping - but she never told us. So all that reached me was a sense that we were hovering over a black abyss and could fall at any moment. So that's the feeling I had yesterday. Knowing that doesn't fix things, but it makes it a little bit easier to remind myself that this isn't real NOW. It was real THEN. It's a window into the heart and thoughts of my past self.

I guess the next step would be to use self-mothering strategies, but I'm very very new to using those.

Lastly... I don't know whether that'll make any difference for you, but for me, it was a profound relief to realize that I DO have the right to grieve. I used to feel afraid of my fear, and ashamed of my shame, and I used to be sad that I was grieving so often - like the shame and grief and fear were problems I had to fix ASAP, and when I couldn't manage to do that, I felt like it was a sign of how defective I was. But now, I'm seeing it as belated grief. Grief work. I've got a right to grieve, and I'll move through it and out the other side.

I hope life will treat you kindly now, and that you'll feel a bit more at ease soon.    You never deserved any of those remarks your mother threw at you.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your appointment.    Sorry for not replying straight away. I had a really bad day yesterday and it's left me jittery and very anxious.

Thanks, Trace. 

Afraid. We're having to find a new flat, but our town has seen an influx of new residents, rents are up, and we might have to move away to another town - which will very probably traumatize my oldest kid. I'm so afraid. I can't let my kids see that, it'll just make them feel insecure, so I'm having to scrape together all the hi-ho Mary-Poppins-like optimism I can find.

Hi Oliphant, and welcome. I'm glad you already found something that helps a little. I'm European as well, also from a country that prides itself on how sensible and reasonable and civilized we are. It's got to be so hard for you now, living in a society that's simply not equipped to believe you.

And thank you for wanting to protect us from being triggered. That's really very good in you, and very considerate.   

But my experience is like yours, that the isolation and the self-imposed silence can make an already bad situation nearly unbearable. Many of us have been really isolated as kids, and unable to tell anyone what was really happening to us. So keeping our silence can be triggering in and of itself. It's very healing to have a place where I can talk more or less openly.

Also, there are several people here with horror stories of physical abuse, sexual abuse, or extreme neglect. So there's a certain chance that someone here will get what you've gone through. No guarantee, but a good chance.

Sooo... hm, the limits of negativity - I think it's really just limited to posts about harm to self and others. (The link goes to a sticky post with details.)

There was some discussion last year about how to discuss drug use. From what I remember, the agreement was to talk about it, but only in one particular thread. I'm not sure, but it might be this one: http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=94.0. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

There's something you could do to tell your story while still making sure no one gets triggered: turning your text invisible. Not permanently. It's useful for posts where only one paragraph or so is VERY dark. Write your post... then mark the triggering passage... then find the scroll-down menu that says "change color", and change the font colour to white. And ta-dah, you have a white text on a white background, i.e. an invisible text. It becomes visible again if people highlight it. That way, you can be really extra sure that no one's going to accidentally stumble head-first into the dark.

I think I've done that too? The thing with the non-offensive breathing.    Yikes.

Don't worry, I'm not going to try and stare down a cat. I did go and watch that youtube video, "ninja cat comes closer without moving", because for some reason this thread reminded me of how, in social situations, I'm sometimes trying to stealth my way through them while also trying to seem veeeery relaxed.

What a lot of pressure.    Pressure from all sides, too - be the perfect nursemaid while also being the perfectly obedient daughter while also pretending to have the normal parental support system while also secretly doing everything for yourself while also helping your parents pretend they weren't nearly as dependent on you as they were... Yeeees, I can see how this might have sapped your energy.    You gave up quite a lot to help them save face, it seems.

Ooof... I wish I knew what to say. No, sorry, I do know one thing to say. Welcome!    

I've recently started listening to the audio version of a book called The Narcissistic Family. It's about trauma that's caused by living in a "narcissistic family system". That's a family where the children are there to fulfill the needs of the parents. From what you're saying, that could apply to you? I'm not telling you to read the book, I'm just saying that this is a known cause for trauma: even if neither of your parents is a narc, even if they never hit you, even if you love them very much, even if it wasn't their fault... if you were there to fulfill their needs, then there's a high chance that this was traumatizing in and of itself.

(If you do want to read the book: it's written for therapists by therapists, so it's definitely not a self-help book, but it's got a good and detailed description of what living in a narcissistic family system does to you.)

My parents weren't physically abusive either. But emotional abuse damages people, too. You don't have to be physically abused to get CTPSD.

I love my parents very much, too. They simply passed on to me what their own parents passed on to them. My father was very, very ill, and my mother took care of him, and there wasn't much energy left for me. They couldn't help it. But even so, I've got CPTSD. A part of it is from watching my father take about two decades to die. A part is from emotional neglect. A part is from emotional abuse. A part is from health issues I myself had. Things add up.

Things added up for you, too, it seems. Your parents controlled your behaviour to a nicety... you were bullied a lot at school... you were parentalized and had to take care of your parents' needs while still conforming to their idea of a good, obedient child... It must have been so wearying. I'm sorry that you had to go through all this. I hope you'll find something here that helps. This forum has been immensely helpful for me. It's full of very kind people. It's one of those rare places where you can just say what things are like for you, and there's bound to be someone on here who's going through the exact same thing or has gone through it in the past. Amazingly freeing, that.

You're right. I'm wondering whether that isn't an effect of abuse. Living in an abusive environment often means that you ARE under constant scrutiny, and if you display any kind of behaviour that isn't to the abuser's liking, they'll act like jerks. A thing can be okay if other people do it, but if the abused person does it, she gets mocked, or commented on, or criticized, or abused, or asked what the * she thinks she's doing. I still feel sometimes like I have to fine-tune my every behaviour to make sure it doesn't offer any grounds for comment. And of course, growing up under that kind of scrutiny teaches you to be hyper-super-aware of what you're doing and how people perceive you and how they act towards you. Someone looks serious and sleepy, my first thought isn't "poor thing, they're exhausted", it's "oh no, I'm boring them". I do NOT enjoy being socially hypervigilant.

I like this mental image. Playing a game of who-looks-away-first with a cat sounds like a very long and difficult task.