Messages

Maybe the word Stress should be taken out of the name.
Post-Traumatic Disorder. (and we can figure out what the "c" should stand for XD)
Just my two cents..

LaurelLeaves,

While it can certainly be part of abuse, I don't think it is automatically true for everyone. Not everyone grows up with shame about their gender.

Most if not all people do experience shame at some point in their lives, but it's pretty diverse what exactly it is for any given person.

I am intersex, and I'm learning that I'm okay with both sides of me. A lot of people like me aren't that way. For them it's maybe even extra important to define their gender very clearly.

For me it was important to learn to be okay with being in between.

Loosing a certain amount of shame and personal inhibition towards gender, sexuality, and kink had and has everything to do with that.. but that doesn't mean it's like that for everyone, or even most. It is just true for me.

I'm not the only one, of course not, but for some gender might be a trait they hang on to.

I've known some gay folks who had issues with acceptance who freaked out when they found out I questioned my gender. For them it had taken time and effort to accept they were attracted to people of the same gender (and not of the opposite) so they had a very strong sense of a binary gender.. It's more important to their sense of self. So they reacted pretty harshly to me blurring those lines.. They told me all the same stuff their non accepting parents had thrown at them, and they didn't even see the irony.. (Not that straight people are per definition accepting of course, but most of them have no idea.. I should probably mention here that I'm a recovering introvert lol)

My oldest son is also intersex.

There was a lot of push right after birth to do surgeries because it would be "kinder to do it while they were too young to remember".

As much issues as I had trying to define myself, I found it really hard to know what to do.

I went online and came across plenty of people who had hated they'd had the surgeries, and plenty who were just as upset that they hadn't.

I ended up deciding against the surgery, knowing that there was no way to know for sure if it would be the right choice. I felt I had no right to make that decision for him, and that should he be upset with me later, at least I could explain why I had made the choice I made.

As it turns out, my son is very happy with the choice I made.

I tried to raise him to know that no matter what, he'd know I love him. No matter if I agree with everything, or understand it all.. that above all else he's my child, and I love him.

I can't and won't protect him from all consequences of his actions or other people's, but that I would love him anyway.

I've written "him" in all of this. It makes no difference to me if that would be any other descriptor.

Did I raise him without shame? Well, no. I'm not perfect nor omnipotent. I believe I raised him to know I love him no matter what though. Somehow though, he managed to become someone who can laugh at himself and mean it. We can probably not avoid all shame, but that doesn't mean we have to let it control us.

Maybe what I learned from my kids is that the trick isn't so much avoiding shame, but teaching our children to overcome it..

Okay, obvious "me too" here..
For how many of you do sounds hurt? (the way nails on a chalkboard does to someone sensitive to that sound, if it were to just not stop...) ..
It's just that I don't get angry or physical easily, but this takes more restraint because it can actually hurt. I have a high pain tolerance, so why do things like this hurt?
Anyone else?

Elphanigh,
You're right of course.. we can understand each others feelings
Thanks for your reply.. I guess my worries were partially about being able to talk about pasts like mine, and not ending up either silent in conversation, or monopolizing it..
One reason I don't tend to be in survivors groups.. but after thinking about all this.. I am usually actually pretty strongly introvert. It might actually just be me. I certainly feel I'm welcome here.. so maybe I would have been in such a group if I'd actually talked about my life back then.. no way to change the past, but it's given me some food for thought..

Rainagain..
It takes a lot of soul searching to find any kind of peace with what we have seen. A way to create a future that's different from our past. Not everyone finds it, but introspection is a minimum requirement if you do hope to *ever* find it..

I've been thinking about this the last while...

Is it really so surprising that such experiences foster not only emotionally blunted toxic narcisism in some, but also deep empathy, a sense of humor, and true insight in others?

In my case maybe a bit more emotional mess and the ability to eventually figure out "no duh" things XD but hey, it still seems a lot better than their reverse, I suppose.. 

Thanks for sharing this.. people tend to pretend they know what is "normal" for other people in situations like this.. you sharing reminded me that, "No.. they don't.." and that it's okay to put a stop to this. Sounds like something that should be obvious, sure.. but it isn't always.. or so many people wouldn't find this so hard to deal with...

Hey..

It was hard to be lied to when you actually know what happened.. It made me doubt myself, and it hurt to think she might be out there somewhere, and not have taken us with her..

I guess I sort of understand as an adult that they couldn't face that, and God, not much else either.. but was it necessary to trample others?

I guess that is what I feel towards most negative encounters in my life.. Why is/was this so necessary?

As far as the landlady goes.. I wouldn't have expected this to come back if you'd have asked me 5 years ago. I also was completely blind to how much this is still effecting me..

Emotional flashbacks were an eye opener for me, because, yes, I definitely have this..

I mean, it is very hard to raise kids, because I didn't want to hurt them, I didn't want them to hurt others, and I *really* didn't want others to hurt them!!

Every time I started thinking in that direction I got irrationally (well, no, but yes.. ugh..) terrified.. I'd try to keep as much as possible from them in case something would happen to them.. an enormous urge to be able to touch.. something.. hug them one more time through a piece of scrap paper they scribbled on.. I guess it's not hard to see the reasons behind it if you take my mom into account, but for years, I didn't see it. I felt it, but I didn't actually have words for it. The more stressed the stronger that urge.. It's still there, but at least I understand it now.. It's hard to heal something you don't understand.

To go back to your broken leg analogy.. It's like I've become so used to walking on it that everyone just assumes it must be fine, me included.. It's just not that noticable anymore.. Then when I still can't run though, it's easy to just blame lack of exercise...

I honestly was afraid I'd end up in the hospital this time, once the memories came back.. It happened in an instant when I saw the face of the woman of the article. I knew immediately that she was dead, and that she'd been strangled. Itty bitty picture and no time at all.. I saw my mom. Then I couldn't stop seeing her, and I couldn't sort of pause it either so I could deal with life.. for a while it was non stop.

I'm still really rocky.. but it's not that image non stop anymore.. I don't have as much control over my emotions as I did, then again, maybe I only thought I did.. I'm not sure.. I'm just worried about getting through this..

So if you've been where I'm at.. how did you?

Is this normal, or is this something that should tell me I'm getting worse?

I am in therapy, and I like my therapist, but I need something different than someone telling me to dig deep and stay strong.. if I wasn't strong I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have, but I worry it's not enough..

Again.. if you've been here.. do you have any advise?

Thank you, guys..

Thanks Kizzie!

Dee,
Yes, you're so right.. the situations matter less than the feelings we're dealing with, and those we have in common.. As for entertainment.. I try to keep in mind that for most people this is so far from their own life and experiences, my life must seem as unreal to them as theirs does to me.. Everyone knows loss. Everyone knows grief. Everyone knows shame. Everyone knows regret.

They aren't easy feelings to deal with so most people kind of stick them in a corner and throw a doily over top, but it's still there..

Most people seem to understand less why we feel a need to examine and understand it when we could just pretend it's a lamp.. or why when there is someone on the news who suffers, why it effects us so much.. (that might just be me, but I doubt it..)

In some ways a lot of people seem to have an almost childlike mind when it comes to empathy.. it's not that they mean bad, but they don't seem to actually see someone on the news and feel something themselves. I don't understand why they don't, and if it's them or me that needs the most therapy..
Try to keep that in mind though.. they just don't get it.. it doesn't mean they actually mean to grab pop corn when you're trying to deal with trauma...

*hugs*

Thanks..

[*TW violence, sexual situations*]

*TW violence, sexual situations*

Andy,

This was initially a reply to you.. Thank you for talking to me.. I think you probably get better than most people how hard it can be to take a life's experiences and try to "fit in".. For most of my life I managed, just the last while.. well things were retriggered, and suddenly I'm having a much harder time..
I ended up just typing everything that came to mind about my life just now.. I hope you don't mind this enormeous amount of text I'm about to copy/paste here.. I wish this had bever happened to any of us.. it feels wrong to say "thanks for letting me know I'm not alone" but it helps to be understood.. to connect.. to not feel so alien, maybe?
I'm not used to that, but thank you..
I was going to rewrite, clarify, etc. but no, I'm just going to post it as is..
I wrote it on a phone, with interruptions from family etc. so sorry if some of it isn't all super coherent.. it's a lot just to make a *list* never mind a logically ordered narrative.. it's basically me thinking out loud.. XD
I hope you get what I'm trying to get across anyway..

*********

TRIGGER WARNING..

*********

A lot of things happened, but my father murdered my mother when I was 4. There was always a lot of fighting.. he had a terrible temper, and he was definitely abusive.. He had old trauma of his own but ended up becoming an abuser.. of people.. of drugs.. In the end he couldn't accept she wanted to move on, and that she meant it. In this period several people died over a very short amount of time.. My twin sister.. and also my mother's brother, who in a flash of anger at a doctor flushed his meds down the toilet.. and actually really needed them.. He died in our shower.. My mom had had enough, and wanted to pull herself back together, without him. She filed for divorce and had to call the police several times because he'd break into the house.

She died not long after that.. after yet another fight.. He murdered her. He dropped my brother off with friends, and took me to his parents.. Not sure what he was thinking.. 

Her story ended up in the papers and such, but people only get a partial, srnsational, glimpse.. Seeing her picture is very difficult for me.. I look a lot like her..

His father was yet another abused abuser. They were Jehovah's Witnesses.. and while I won't go into what I think of them now, I will say that any religion that feels it's important to keep it's members away from anyone who can't be converted risks being a haven for peope such as my grandfather. He was an elder. Knowing others trusted him with their kids makes my hands and feet into icecubes. Right here as I write this.. I mean.. he died a few years ago, and it still has a physical effect on me.. I don't usually do physical sensations much. I have a high pain tolerance. The fact that I'm sitting here shivering and grabbing a blanket is very much not like "me"..

Knowing that they (Jehovah's Witness elders) seemed more upset with me going to the police (instead of to them) than with what happened to me makes me really really angry. These are people, making mistakes.. they are not every person in that religion, but it's not *them* that have to mop up the mess after,.. It's inexcusable to the children you put at risk.. and frankly inexcusable to me too. They saw me about four days out of each week. If they couldn't see what was happeningl honestly not see it, then they have no business making decisions about what person should and shouldn't be "working" with "young brothers and sisters".  My grandfather was absolutely able to charm people and put on a really good facade, but then, so can most like him.

Abusers keep their victims silent,.. it means they teach us to smile when we hurt and to lie when someone asks us if we're okay.. We are taught to isolate ourselves, and we are taught to lie for the benefit of another. It's not unusual for those in homes and foster care to lie.. it's not because the lines between reality and fantasy are blurry, it's because that's what we've been taught. It's not easy to let people closer again after.. So when you have a choice between hurting people's feelings and lying, or between a spotlight and going unnoticed.. it's a no brainer. Sorry, getting off track, but I ended up in homes and foster care, and people always seemed so stunned about kids lying. I lied about where I went (I used to hide out in libraries and books..) others lied about a lot else.. it's not a dissociation, it's a remnant behavior as surely as any other..

My father's mother wanted "a girl" bad enough she was willing to run and hide to keep me.. so when he showed up and dropped me in her lap she did everything she could to keep me and not let the court have me placed elsewhere..

Now that might *sound* like a great thing.. someone loving you enough to run and hide you.. but it wasn't about what was best for *me*.. (or she would have left her husband for one).. and the feeling you're not.. free.. is hard to describe.. not being able to go outside in case someone would come and get me... is it kidnapping? I don't know how to answer that, but I think there might be a gray area between what is and isn't kidnapping.. all I know is that everything changed. Everything what I was and wasn't allowed changed, but the way what wasn't allowed was communicated was *exactly* the same..

What I wanted most at this time was my BROTHER.. We're still busy healing the rift that was created. We were so close.. I remember feeling safe with him. Sneaking into his room at night and getting my butt busted.. now I was alone in a bedroom until my grandfather came up the stairs. I'd listen to the creak. I could actually tell people apart from the sound the stairs made..

In the end the court decided that after all the things that'd happened, the best thing might be to leave my brother and me with the different sides of the family, figuring that the families would come together for the sake of my brother and me.. That's not what happened.. Rifts like that don't just "mend" themselves for the sake of children.. if they did courts wouldn't see the ugliness of custody battles with parents using their children as pawns to hurt one another..

One of the many moments when looking back I wonder how anyone figured this would have *ever* been a good idea...

Everyone expected me to forget what'd happened to my mother.. to my family.. My sister was gone. My brother was gone. My father was gone. My mother was gone.. They told me my mother actually "ran away" that she was actually still alive..  and that my father was in a "hospital".. They'd also told me my mother was emotionally unstable, and unable to keep a house..

Looking back, I can't imagine watching your child waste away (my twin sister) for almost four years, deal with a thouroughly failing marriage, the death of her brother, and the general stress of always fighting with my father, *and* then deciding to start again. To file for divorce, get councelling, and try to get yourself back together. I think she did a whole lot better than the woman who said it but stayed with her abusive husband, what was happening in our house, and living in denial of what her son had done..

Once I finally saw my grandmother (mother's mother) again, I asked her point blank what'd happened to my mother, and she said "I'm sorry, but I'm not supposed to talk to you about that" when I said next "She was murdered.." She said "Yes." I actually thought it was an uncle instead of my father at the time, when she said "No" to that, I told her it was my dad and she didn't deny it.. She actually got in trouble for not denying what I told her.
They'd (father's parents) made her promise not to tell me anything before they'd allow her to see me again.. Thing is.. I told her.

Once they were talking about my mother in the car on the way home, I exploded. I told them I knew the truth and also that my grandmother had tried not to tell me, but that I told her.

The fact that I not only knew, but that I thought it was his brother, who looked a lot like him (then realized that it was actually my father himself) should have tipped off EVERYBODY that there was a (visual) memory there.. I'd asked because his brother looked like him. (I was still really young at this time, so I didn't get the tip myself until the memories came back)..

I've seen sexual abuse at my grandparent's (father's father) side, and the emotional and physical crap that goes with trying to convince a child to keep their mouth shut. Fair to say I know where my father got his temper..

When I ran away from that, I obviously figured the incest was the bigger trauma. I remembered it better.. (or.. at the time, it was all I remembered)
I had a gap in my memory about my mother between the fight right before the murder, and the day right after. Both of those memories were clear, but with a big black hole in the middle. I chalked it up to how young I was, that it made sense that I shouldn't be able to remember anything from that long ago anyway, and focussed on what I *did* remember.

Long story short, I'm now in my 40s.. and a while back I was on a news website where there was a headline about someone who had strangled their girlfriend, posted the pictures of it online, and left her in the bedroom for her kids to find.. The headline included a tiny copy of one of the very pictures he'd posted..

Trigger warning? What's that??
Oh holy * did it ever trigger me!! Less than 0.no seconds at all when I saw that picture.. I had some major flashbacks, visual which is unusual for me, that filled in pretty much the blanks of the missing time I had, plus a few other ones.. all of them of me trying not to breathe so they wouldn't know I was awake.. I was so bloody scared..

It's easy isn't it? Everyone heard of fight and flight, but what do you do when flight isn't an option and fight gets you killed?

So suddenly a lot of the anxiety I'd learned to control was just raging free.
I couldn't do what I could handle before, I crashed really, really hard.

I have hypersomnia btw. and naturally low blood pressure, so the minipress meds that sometimes work for ptsd was not possible, and anti anxiety meds meant I couldn't function because I wouldn't be able to wake up..

A lot of other things happened including a brother in law who threatened to kill my at the time 14 year old son while my husband was in the ICU in a coma, on life support due to Menengitis. He has cancer so he is very vulnerable to infections and he wasn't expected to make it. Then I get a call.. my grandmother, mom's mom, was dying.. all this one after another..

Once my husband did wake up, he wasn't the same. He had trouble telling what was real or not.. He was hearing voices (which he thought were doctors and nurses talking in his hospital room, because he thought he was actually still in the coma..
He'd had a near death experience, but his was terrifying to him. He suddenly had a lot more anxiety to deal with of his own.. He tried to put a plastic bag over his head because he wanted ton"wake up from the coma" and he figured "dying in the coma" would force him to wake up..

Bottomline is that I ended up in an emotional maelstorm.. The last few months I haven't been doing well..

My landlady (who has no idea what my past is but knows I have ptsd) said that it was nonsense to keep hanging on to the past.. and she doesn't get it.. I've done all I can to move forward.. I always have.. I feel judged for my grief.. and the fact that I am grieving..

We currently have neighbors above us that fight all the time, especially at night.. There is drug use involved, and for all his slick exterior, I've always been very good at spotting people with violent tempers..

I've been angry and just super anxious, and last night I finally put 2 and 2 together, just.. a few hours ago.. Duh, but I guess I finally get why I lay there in bed, terrified, and angry, and feeling like screaming..

There is a release in understanding it at least.. finally.. but yeah.. I'm drowning in words..

There is so much to add, but I needed to say this out loud. I don't actually know why this urge is so terribly strong now.. I mean.. it's been over thirty years!! I hate that it still gets to have such a hold on me.. I guess it has had that straight along though.. every time I didn't stand up for myself.. both afraid to hurt someone, and terrified I wouldn't he able to stop someone hurting those I love most.. it's been there all along.. The way I talk to myself.. I've come to the realization that that voice tends to be the voice of my grandfather, not actually my own. I'm learning to recognise it when that voice starts talking in my mind, and remind myself that I don't have to listen to that voice anymore. That the voice of the most hurtful, bitter, and broken people in my life has no business inside my mind and my heart. That, when I hurt, not just because I wish my mom could see my kids, but because I wish everything had gone different so they'd have the rest of a family too.. father, grandfather, everyone included.. a very big little part of me keeps asking "why?" Why was it so hard to do things different? I was and am by nature an optimistic happy person. That's my "neutral".. why couldn't they just let me be happy? Bring the happiness my kids brought me?

I know what happened isn't my fault.. of course I do.. so why do I have to keep reminding myself of that when that grief comes back to the surface? "Why couldn't I just be happy? Why, if it took so little to make me happy, did they have to hurt me like that? Take everything and everyone I love away? For what? To keep secrets? It was so needless.. and that's maybe the
hardest part..

So this is me, where I'm at right now..
I don't know a ton about C-PTSD, but so far it makes a lot of sense. I recognise a lot.. I'm looking for a way forward..

Thanks for being there..

Andy,

I wrote back to you, but then figured my response needs a trigger warning.. so I'll go ahead and post it under the "other" heading.. then leave a link here..

http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=7878.0

*******************
Kizzie..

"other" didn't seem like the place to talk about my experiences, because umm.. I guess I felt it was meant for "other" things?? Not saying it's the most logical thought *lol* but that was my reaction on seeing that header.. Maybe it's one of the reasons other people didn't put much there either?? I'll be honest.. I am really not sure what else to name that category to get the message across that *this* is where you can post these kinds of experiences...

Thank you.. really..

I only just found this forum and ended up writing a few really long replies to people, then trying to rewrite them and end up with posts that really aren't any shorter at all..

I guess I've been needing to talk for a very long time. I survived violent crime as well, the description of the hugely disfunctional family, that's me..

When I left that family behind me and ended up in foster homes etc. I was in therapy, but other than that I pretty much didn't talk about it. How do you talk about things that people watch on tv for entertainment?

I don't make friends easily anyway.. I'm not a social butterfly..

Then, about two years ago something, several somethings, happened that retriggered my PTSD, and then a few months ago I had something that was probably an emotional break down..

I've been a lot rockier emotionally, and I'm having a *much* harder time controlling my emotions.. especially anxiety, and I am trying to figure out how to get back on my feet..

I just really need to talk about this.. I feel like I'm bursting.. thank you for your welcome and for listening.. it's actually really hard to write my life down and not get lost in it.. but it helps to know I can..

I was dealing with an emotional flashback just before I came back to this message.. it means a lot to me to see your messages, and the reminder that I'm not alone.. I wish no one would have to go through any of this, but it helps to know I don't have to do this all alone, or bite my tongue about what I've seen and what I'm going through...

Thanks..

Hi,

I think it takes a lot of guts to look at yourself and talk about your worries (the "maybe it's me?" feeling..)..

I don't know if you have c-ptsd, but I think the feelings of self doubt and the need to repress emotions, good and bad, just to have them come roaring back are very familiar..

My husband is bipolar, and he finds it very difficult to deal with the emotionality of our youngest son. Why? Because he recognises himself in him, and he finds it all the harder not to treat him like he was treated by his own parents..

I think people need to get away from the idea that there is a set level of emotion that is okay or not okay to feel.. the point is that it's there. A weighing scale does absolutely nothing to help people dealing with strong emotions (quite the opposite)..

Whatever "label" you feel does or doesn't apply to you in the end matters less than being able to share what you feel with people who will at least recognise the feelings themselves..

It's sometimes hardest not to judge ourselves way harder than we would judge anyone else..

I hope that you find something that helps you move forward here

*hugs*
I need to be in bed, so more later, but I figured I'd add an extra hug real quick..

Hi..

I know it's probably not the most common, but could there be categories for survivors of violent crime, war, etc?

I know, C-PTSD is about long term trauma, so violent crime might not appear to fit that mold, but crimes like kidnappings and homicide tend to occur *within* families.

Husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, uncles, aunts, children, etc.  You get the picture.. These types of things are usually not actually committed by strangers (it does happen, but family is much more common)..

These kinds of experiences tend to be the kind that turn a lot of victims into the next generation of perpetrators, so families tend to be very toxic.
They tend to have more than one disfunctional person in it, more than one abuser, more than one instance of violence, and a whole lot of skeletons in the closet..

Some people coming here may have grown up in war zones.

Some survivors of ethnic cleansing..

Some victims of child sex trafficking rings..

I don't think anyone here will be really surprised that it is very, very hard to fit into "normal" society after.. or that we have C-PTSD..

I really don't mean to trigger anyone, but I also know I'm not the only one with this kind of background.

It's very hard to talk about this, not in the last place because it's really hard not to end up making people feel very defensive (or end up being the defensive one ourselves..)

We *all* feel guilt and doubt about the things that happened to us. It's a sensitive spot that has *everything* to do with being traumatized in the first place, so it's really hard not to end up trying to "justify" why we hurt so bloody much..

I've dealt with my life by pretty much not talking about it outside of therapy, and very few people know my story, but it still does effect me just the same.

People aren't as a rule very compassionate about things they don't understand, and it's hard to understand what you don't know.

I don't want to hurt anyone, and I know I don't understand everyone all the time either, but I'm tired of going through this alone. (it's why l was asking about categories..)

I realize how sensitive this is, so I mean this as an honest question that can be answered with "no", and I'll find a different way and place..

Is it okay to talk about these things here, and where would be a safe place to do so?

Thanks..