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Thank you, everyone. I think I just needed a reality check. 

I'd also think about how good your children and your H are with setting limits and boundaries? Are they going to protect you? Or leak information to FOO about you, even unwittingly?

It won't even be unwitting. We are very open communicators in my household. I am 100% certain they will ask whether things I have told them are true or tell parents things I've said. My kids will think they can "fix" this. Because often in life they can help two people get along again after a fight. They don't understand the magnitude of this kind of constant wearing down.

My parents were violent, though their primary tactic was emotional abuse. They have even hurt one of the kids before (they are 6 and 9).

My kids don't understand. OF COURSE if I let them make contact my parents will cry and hug and shower them with gifts and affection.

Of course they will. Because they haven't seen them in half a decade.

But it doesn't erase everything they've done to me and to my husband. My brother says "they've changed" but I don't know how they possibly could have changed enough for me to let me put my kids in harms way.

I am open and honest with the kids about (most) of what I experienced growing up. They know there was yelling, hitting, and namecalling. But they are kids so they do those things all the time on the playground and their teachers say to apologize and forgive. It's not remotely the same thing but they are kids and don't have a good point of reference.

I am in the states, so we're not even opening the door for Easter. So there can't be any contact right now anyway.

But will I really regret not letting them get together before my parent die? I would have said definitely NO a year ago, but the kids are so sweet and they don't have any idea what kind of monsters they are asking after.

I'm not sure where to put this question.

I'm nearly 5 years No Contact with FOO.

I've got my DH, DS, and DD with me and am as happy as anyone could be during this strange era of Isolation.

But with them hearing about illness and death so much, I've started to get the "We want to see them before they are gone" hoovering from the kids.

We've discussed reasons before, but they remain persistent.

They've got me to a place where I am wondering if I'm doing the wrong thing.

I would love advice if anyone has some to give.

Rowan, that is really unfortunate and a huge disregard for your boundaries. I'm glad you have a place to air these incidents now. Covert can make you feel very alone and questioning if anything really happened. But Rowan lumber is strong and beautiful, with just enough flexibility. You are enough.

Cookido, I echo what a lot of others have said here about this being a very individual situation. The only thing I can add is that when I first went NC, I thought of my M as the main bad guy and my D as one of her victims. Through therapy, however, I have realized that my D was not just an equal partner to this abuse but also abused me in other, subtler ways that she didn't. His may have been the most damaging, in fact. Looking back, it's hard to believe how deluded I was at the time.

Time away from them and therapy are the way for him to figure it all out. And remember that he doesn't have to declare "I'll never see them again" - he can just ask each day "Do I want to see them today?"

Another of my worries is that I will pass this awful phobia onto my son because I find it so hard to not panic in front of him when 'it' happens.

He is maybe too young to understand yet, but consider keeping an open dialog with him as he ages about how your brain chemistry works differently. My kids know "mom gets scared easy" and "sometimes mommy forgets" and you might be surprised how well they process that stuff. We talk about it like any other disability.

And remember that it is okay and totally natural to panic when someone emits! Every parent has some panic about it. It's unsettling and icky for anyone. I've been in treatment for my phobias and that's one of the things you learn is that phobias usually grow out of a natural reaction. It's okay to be freaked out by that situation because it is freaky. Someone with a phobia goes way out in space with the fear, but the initial reaction is pretty normal.

(You could consider treating the cPTSD and treating the phobia as separate issues and ask your therapist about specific phobia resolution.)

And that thing about never feeling safe? IDK how long you've been with your T, but I know at least for me, those are the words I said to my T on day one. I imagine we all have been there. For me it got better. I was able to change it from "I'm never safe" to "I never feel safe" to "I am often scared" to "I scare easily." But I'm quick to dish out advice. I don't know if that would work for you or not.

Wishing good things for you!

[growing scar tissue]

If we need physical memory to know how to ride a bike or swim, why can't trauma be in those memories too?

True! It is well documented that soft tissue such as muscle has the capacity to store information, so why not trauma information! Good point!

I just wanted to say hello as it seems like we may have quite a lot in common... Unfortunately, my EMDR has not been going well... I would be very interested to know how things go for you.

Hi Libby! Well met. That stinks your EMDR has not been productive. There's lots of reasons that could be happening, but if you haven't told your therapist, maybe they can adjust their method. Re: fibro - I always feel compelled to mention to look into the pain that growing scar tissue can cause. Most of us were in some kind of accident or injury that "triggered" the fibro. Turns out, scar tissue keeps growing and adhering to soft tissue throughout the body, causing inflexibility and muscle spasms. Every so often, I have to get mine broken up by a professional myofacial masseuse/PT.  I still have pain, but I don't get those horrible rock-hard muscle spasms (I'm sure you know what I mean). Might not work for you, but I just mention to everyone in case it helps. And if that scar tissue resulted from the same things that caused your cPTSD, it can release some of that trauma.

A pretty active kid who was pretty playful and full of humor while being blunt and argumentative at the same time. I often questioned teachers and all kinds of things adults say, and many of them disagreed or ignored what I said without explaining why.

Um. That kid sounds awesome.

Also, classic gifted kid.

--

let empathy;

if ( negativeThoughts ) {
    for (var negativeThought in negativeThoughts)  {
        return ( isSelfCritic ? "ignore" : "evaluate");
    }
}

It's the voice that tells me how annoyed it is about not having attention... The one who's resentful of everyone else who gets more attention.

...I saw others as pathetic and a burden.

Hi DR. I'm not a therapist, and Blueberry probably said this better, but it does sound like you've internalized someone else's narrative for you.

A child's need for attention and affection is real, genuine, and valid. It sounds like someone who should have provided that attention thought that you were disgusting for wanting that very basic human need. (This sounds very much like my mother's narrative for me. She, too, was disgusted by my human need for connection, and I began to see people who needed other people as 'weak' or 'childish.')

So, if a computer was programmed that 'attention seeking is disgusting' and then someone sought attention from that computer, the computer would classify that person as "disgusting"... or maybe "pathetic" or a "burden"?

My question would be what did you initially feel about seeking connection? What did little you naturally feel before that narrative was imposed on you? Could you believe that again and "reprogram" that definition to "attention seeking is natural and good"?

(Sorry for the computer metaphors. I program.)

our bodies don't lie - when they become distressed, there is a reason for it.

I want to quote your whole thing, sanmagic!

Before I started this journey I thought the idea of trauma stored in the body was pseudoscience. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, given medication, and profoundly resented anyone who suggested that my emotional or mental state would have anything to do with my daily pain. It wasn't until I broke down crying during a myofacial release PT session that I realized how much is stored in the body.

What you're saying makes so much sense about the body and about pre-verbal reactions. If I could not articulate my situation even mentally, it seems entirely reasonable that I would only remember the physical sensations. That's really interesting. And, also, you know, stinks.

Everyone interacting with me here is really helping. I know my writing style can be really distant and academic (dissociation), but I really appreciate this on an emotional level.

It's really quite enough for me and sounds that way for you.

I had no idea how much I needed to hear this until you said it.

i've witnessed it with my ex and my daughters.  inappropriate things said, vibes that were felt, stuff like that. ...but there was nothing concrete in what he did with them as far as i know.  words and feelings.  i guess that's covert.

Yup that is definitely covert SA, sanmagic. Sending you and your daughters hope that they feel validated and supported. Long-term covert can be just as damaging as overt SA and is associated with the same mental and emotional outcomes, or so I read. 

I recognized my sister's relationship with her younger son instantly... He was never given the gift of independence and he feels like a failure.

Dee, yes, that is truly unfortunate. I am one of those who believes "life begins after no-contact" when it comes to parents who don't respect boundaries. I understand that must be a very difficult situation for you to navigate, with her being your sister and all. I hope your nephew is getting the support that he needs.

The other thing I wondered is if overt and covert exists together?  From what I read I feel it can and probably usually does.

That's where my thoughts are going today. It took a long time for me to realize that what I had experienced was covert SA, but now that I have, I'm starting to see where it may have crossed a line into overt SA. I know that doesn't make my pain more or less valid, but I'm wondering what else is bubbling to the surface. It's hard to feel valid about experiences that aren't... I don't know... obvious? I told my brother once about some of the things and he said, "If you cherry pick incidents like that you could make anyone sound creepy." It's been a while since then and now I know that he was wrong to say that. Boundaries were violated, physical and emotional. It doesn't have to resemble what he thinks SA looks like to be real.

But knowing and feeling are different, and I still struggle with this a lot. Thoughts like, "I shouldn't even post in this part of the forum because my things aren't real enough" go through my head. But the more I read the more it seems like a lot of folks in this forum feel similarly.

I guess I was wondering if anyone else here had experienced this and how they process it. I'd give examples but I'm worried they would be too detailed and, frankly, I think I'm afraid to say it out loud since the last time I was shut down so hard.

I've tried searching the forum for other posters talking about Covert abuse but there just aren't many. Is anyone up for talking about Covert?

Thank you everyone. It's really helpful to hear from you. 

I can remember beginnings, endings, and nothing in the middle.

Thank, you, Dee. This is an accurate description of this particular memory. Most of my cPTSD is from emotional abuse. It has been easier to access those memories. I start with a physical pain or emotional state and then eventually get that "aha" moment. The younger I go, and the more my physical person is in danger, the more blank spots arise.

As far as I know, visual flashbacks often occur with PTSD, while emotional ones (EFs) usually with CPTSD. I would say my physical ones are mixed up with my EFs.

Thank you Blueberry, that is good to know. I have regular PTSD from a terrible accident as well as cPTSD from the abuse. Sometimes they get all tangled together because both things led to a childhood of feeling unsafe. As I do EMDR I have learned that I keep a LOT of pain in my body from both physical and emotional trauma. Combined with the actual injuries I sustained, it can be hard to separate things out. I often go to my T and point to a body part and say, something wants to come out here. IDK if anyone else has that experience.

Through my own emdr process I have stopped half way through and said to my therapist I don't think that happened, I made that up, I've imagined that etc, ... I dissociated a lot as a child and still do as an adult

That's a big relief to hear, Eyessoblue. I've been dealing with so many adolescent memories and they're much easier to access, but now that I'm remembering pre-school stuff, things get so fuzzy. Because of the dissociation, I often remember things from a birds-eye view and know I made a breakthrough if I "zoom in" and am experiencing the memory from my own point of view. Maybe these young memories I just hadn't developed that dissociation and so everything is raw and confusing. IDK