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Hope, I hope you enjoy your digital vacation.

Thank you both for talking about Mother Hunger. As NK mentioned, it's funny how the synchronicity seems to happen. I had been looking for books to help with reparenting, and wasn't sure where to start. So, that might be a good place.

Sending you support,
dolly

The discussion about whether the scapegoat is weak or strong is interesting. I'm not even sure if a FOO would view it in those terms, were they to analyse it. After all, most of the time it is in their interests for the scapegoat to continue to be the scapegoat.

This is interesting NK and I do think in my family there were very much ideas around weak and strong --what is to be done and not done. I think scapegoats have to absorb the family story where to not be identified as weak, they have to be "strong," which is perhaps the very denial of those empathetic characteristics that their family saw in them and wanted to reconstrue because they couldn't handle the truth or the tension of what was happening in the family system. I'm also hesitant to identify with those empathetic characteristics I think because I was caught in a double bind --those characteristics made me strong, and I was supposed to be the saviour of the family, using my strength to help them, which is the part of the "story" that I feel like I have to be careful with. Scapegoats are very willing, according to Scapegoating in Families, to fulfil their role as saviour to keep the family together, and subconsciously take on that "bad" behaviour.

Any dynamic goes into imbalanced chaos when one of its balancing components either changes or falls away. It's always been so easy for me to think of the family as villains versus victims, but what if it's more of a partnership of imbalanced behaviors driven by a family of imbalanced emotions? What if they need me to heal from their "abuse" as much as I need me to heal from it? What if it's more like if I heal, they heal too?

I wrote about this in my journal, but the Scapegoating in Families book goes into more detail about how the family functions as a system and scapegoating is used to provide an outlet for tensions in the family, which is meant to help the survival of the family. So, the child takes it all on as the saviour (but also the burden bearer) where they are IMO acutely aware of their own annihilation for not doing these things. I would be curious about healing yourself to heal others as it perhaps it is more of the same and that by doing this you are then "saving" your family and still trying to fulfil the scapegoat role?

When I combine that sentiment with Chart's, Dolly's and NarcKiddo's thoughts on how the whole family falls into the trap of putting their blame onto someone willing to hold it for them, I see how the less willing I am to take their blame, the more chances we all have at learning how to be accountable for our own dysfunctional feelings.

To me, this is a great way to look at it PC. I know for a long time I felt like I had to prove that I was "right" and my family was "wrong," but it left a big gap for my understanding and ego where I knew that I couldn't be "right" all of the time, and I did/do make mistakes along the way. I was perhaps acting out the dysfunctional ways too that I was shown growing up, but I learned that I have to take responsibility for the things I do along the way too. I want to keep my side of the fence clean; it's much better that way. Not to prove other people wrong, but because it is much less emotionally messy, and I have spent a lifetime carrying other peoples' emotions thinking I had to sort it out for them, to save them.
 

This feels so much more real to me. So any time I allow someone to put their own shame onto me, Both of us, me and them, stop learning how each of us can be accountable for our own emotions and fears and shame and peace and love, etc

I think this sounds like a great boundary to have with someone where maybe you are more free to allow your self space to come out, and be the authentic you. I would also say that in my experience (and from the Fawning book) that it's not always a comfortable experience. Being more authentic is going to make some people uncomfortable.
 

I fear depression far more than I fear anxiety. I've been a Nervous Ned since the day I was born. Anxiety has saved me many times by keeping my guard up. Hypervigilance keeps me aware of danger. Any time I relaxed around my Catholic family or friends, I was vulnerable to their exploitations. So I'm terrified of being relaxed.

Perhaps this is the old scapegoat story though? Or a part of you is still living with that story of who you are?


PC, I also feel a lot to be able to engage in a discussion like this and explore what is going on for each of us. To me, this is relational healing, getting to explore what I never had a context for and a chance to explore growing up.
 

Did that make sense?

Yes, I get what you're saying and until I read Fawning, I would have said that being helpful is "good," and ultimately helping people is good, but there's a line where we are helpful, and then helpful because fawning is an ingrained trauma response that we're not aware of. Specifically, because of how we have been raised (ie the one to take it all on, not incite conflict etc). The Fawning book has really helped open my eyes to this (and there is specifically a chapter on Fawning in Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) and think it is perhaps more prevalent in scapegoats.

Sorry to hijack your journal PC. I just thought this was an important distinction to make and am happy to move the conversation somewhere else.

Many times on this forum, I've said things about how I believe we are the strongest and most helpful people on earth. We're the "light of the world" and "the salt of the earth" and any other old saying that we've heard and dismissed. I see our suffering as a result of us knowing how unfair life is, and that's what makes us not feel okay with abuse.

PC, I'm glad you found something in this book and I'm sorry that your family did that to you. I also thought it was interesting that she wrote about how the family picks the strongest, most empathetic etc etc member, which is different from Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Emotional and Physical Abuse (which I was also going to recommend tho it's more about the constructs so far in the family) where she and has a polarizing view of taking the "weakest" member of the family, which I don't agree with necessarily. I guess the story is who the family sees as the weakest, which is not necessarily true.

To me, I find the word "helpful" really loaded because that's the story that they wanted me to believe, that I had to be "helpful" and take this on to help the family survive, which of course, needing the family in any capacity, I did. But being helpful is also something that is keeping me stuck in many ways, and keeping me from my authentic self and a connection to healthy anger. Everything I did had to be for someone else because that's how I had to survive in the family.

My job was to "save" the family. In that role I had "love privileges". I got all the love I needed from her as in line with my training. Probably, at minimum, I had a sense of relative value as a baby. Although, when I'd failed to produce the intended effect, my "role" took on a whole new dimension. It was subtle, insidious, but it was implicit and everyone knew it, I was the strong one, the adventurer, the popular one... special. But of course the half-truth held an ugly reality just below the surface

Chart, I would encourage you to look at the definition of scapegoat more, or the examples given in the Scapegoating Families book where the scapegoat is the precise one used to save the family. I also put a blurb in my journal this morning about the relationship between parents and children of the opposite sex where the parent heaps praise on the child until they no longer follow the "rules," and then the scapegoating begins. Not that I want to project my own experience onto you, I just perhaps noticed the similarities.

And now who is being "helpful!" I am writing about this I guess in hopes of getting out of this place that I have found myself in since being a child, and the path to connecting to my own more authentic self, anger included.

Sending you all support,
dolly

Chart, I have started reading "Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse," and came across this:

"In some families, children are brought into the world to "bind" the family unit, "to keep the family together." Many couples are in conflict before the child is born, and they hope that children will help the marriage. When the conflicts do not disappear, they stay together for the "sake" of the children. The resentment they have towards each other may be transferred to the children.

Most of the time, if the child has not been scapegoated, he or she is likely to feel a strong need to get away from the family conflict and pathology...The scapegoated child, especially if the scapegoating is a lifelong pattern, will probably feel responsible for all thee family pain and want to stay physically and emotionally in order to make amends."

I'm guessing that you are the former perhaps, but thought it was interesting and worthwhile perhaps if it was the latter. For me, this scapegoating stuff is another very difficult layer of entanglement as well as an obstacle to healing.

Hey Chart,

I hope Schore's work is able to help you find some space in what you're going through.

Sending you support,
dolly

Thank you for your response PC. It's given me some things to think about. I get what you're saying and am happy that you've found that sense of connection for yourself, but also that that sense of connection was a way to better understand your Self and a path to your Self, so that you could be there for you when you need it. What's interesting, and maybe where some of the difference lies in our approaches is that I was once on the other end of that suicide equation (if I want to call it that) with my father who wasn't "saved" (again, lacking the word to call it). Maybe in a way, it has taught me the opposite on some level-- that the people you need to be there for you aren't going to be there for you.

I don't want to take up too much of your journal, but through the scapegoat book I'm learning about disenfranchised grief, which is grief that is not "acceptable" to be felt at the time. I learned that one of the causes of disenfranchised grief is suicide. Perhaps once I process my own disenfranchised grief that sense of connection will be easier, perhaps not.

Yes, the hug emoji is a tricky one for me too. Sometimes I feel it, and sometimes it just sort of feels like a band aid when people don't have the capacity to be there for you (which I totally get!), and something in my body has to sort of protect itself for reasons stated above. I also do feel a connection to you through your posts and our communications over the years and there is a real sense of earnestness and genuineness that does come through.

I'm sorry NK 

I know what that's like. It's like you're invaded, at least to me. I woke up the other morning thinking about how I had The Tibetan Book of the Dead when I was a teenager, and how when I went there my gm expressed what a connection she had to that place, not so much about my trip or interests. It was about her. I have come back to Tibetan Buddhism and it has had a big impact on me. I don't even realize that I say mantras most days as a form of "protection" and understanding, and I feel like perhaps this connection is partly obscured because it was "taken" from me. I'm sorry your m is trying to take something from you that you find important and enjoy.

Hey PC,

That's great that you've made that progress for yourself  Really, what an achievement.

My need to be emotionally "felt" by others, makes me quick to believe that's what others want also. I like being with people who want to feel cared about, and who want to care about others. So, I find myself wanting to share myself with people while they share themselves with me...emotionally. I assume that other people want to be heard and believed and cared about as much as I do.

For me, this is the tricky part. I had the experience where I was "loved" to the point of having no boundaries where FOO did things because they really "loved" me (well, they loved themselves). So, when people come too close like that it mimics the lack of space and self that I had with my gm. I also think, and I'm figuring out how all this scapegoating stuff applies to me, that I do one of the behaviours that scapegoated children do, which is called stuffing. That I don't express emotions etc because that was used against me. So, on the one hand I had to be extra open with my gm for example, but on the other with my m, I had to have this tough exterior (and the main thing is that no one did anything about it). When people are that open with me, I can't help to think what is their underlying motivation for doing so because with FOO it always came with strings attached, which I can understand would be triggering for those who wer cast out, or abandoned by their families. I think it's just a question of what our window of tolerance is.

Sending you support,
dolly

I'm sorry PC, that's a lot, but like you say it's time to not have it as your story any more.

[Dolly,]

Dolly, I'm expecting the book about scapegoating to arrive from Amazon today.
That comment you made, that fawning, and that for whatever reason we do it, it separates us from our authentic self is a good eye opener for me today. I can suddenly see how I am not living my life to be what I was created to be, but rather to serve others in order to feel safe. I spend most of my energy trying to feel safe, not so much from wild animals or storms, but from people. And not as much from strangers, but I mostly feel like I need to feel safe from the people I know; Family. Friends and peers.

Talk about a lose/lose dichotomy: I yearn for attachment, while being afraid of attachment. How does one find peace when he is afraid of what he wants?

Exactly, and I feel the same way. It's like a little dance I do with people, they can get close, but not TOO close. Ingrid Clayton describes the experience as fawning where you keep that little bit of Self for you when there is danger coming at you (paraphrasing). In essence, why do I think there is danger coming at me from "safe" people? I think this is maybe where the scapegoating and Betrayal Trauma (that Mandeville talks about in the scapegoating book) come in. No one was ever safe in my family, just the illusion of safe, so how do I know that that looks and feels like when I never had it? I guess knowing is one of the first steps to working to heal it.

Interestingly, she talks about Betrayal Trauma as also including institutions, and made me think of your comment about the church.

Hope you get something out of the book.

Sending you support 
dolly

Hi Hope,

Welcome to 2026 and your starting a new year 

That's a really good list of things for you to focus on.

All the best for 2026 

dolly

[Dolly,]

Dolly, I have a slightly different take on why you feel the need to help. I feel like we're in this together, and we are wired to share help with each other, and I receive your suggestions as gifts, not as budding in. I've always loved that old quip that says how we have two hands; one for giving and one for receiving. When we use both equally, the healing energy of the Universe flows through us like conduits. That's why I'm grateful anytime anyone on the forum shares their thoughts for the purpose of helping.

PC, I fully get what you're saying here, and I appreciate that you don't take it in the "wrong" way. I also know, for me, that fawning is a thing, and it's something that I'm realizing I've done from an early age because I had to and because it kept me safe. Lots of those fawning qualities are good --they help people etc-- but it's also a trauma response that keeps me from expressing my authentic self. There is another book that I'm reading at the moment called Fawning by Ingrid Clayton that is also very interesting. NarcKiddo posted a good video where she discusses an updated version of fawning, not one rooted in codependency and people-pleasing, with Patrick Teahan, which was very good.

And I'm VERY interested in reading the book you're reading. What we often call scapegoating, or "Identified Patient", I sometimes call the "Gilligan Syndrome". Gilligan made mistakes that kept the 7 characters stuck on the island.

I remember Gilligan's Island and think the adage almost fits, but I can imagine that you never made those mistakes in the first place, they were placed on you by your FOO; what you did as a child was never a mistake.


I came across scapegoating (I think?), or more interested in scapegoating through youtube videos by Jay Reid (which are good, but I don't really like the hard sell he gives on his website for his courses; but there is a lot of useful information in the videos) and it seemed to "fit," but until a few days ago, it was like I had this blinder on on how it happened in my family. I couldn't "see" how my m rejected, shamed, and blamed me for leaving and abandoning her. I think it can be so ingrained in the idea of who I thought I was, or just my subconscious, even though I consciously have talked about it and "knew" it wasn't "right" for her to do that. To me, I think scapegoating a whole other layer on top of narcissistic families.

I have a box of books (I wish I could show you a photo, because it's a surreal heavy box of books) that I carry with me everywhere. I read and read and read. I refer back and underline and take notes.

I also wanted to say about your previous post that I get this and have been talking about my previous therapist who I saw 20 years ago before anyone knew what cptsd was, and wanted to classify me as partly borderline or histrionic. I think I had to look for ways to explain things that are happening inside that no one had information for at the time. Even now while reading unfawning, she is talking about things that I have felt and described, but they fell into the category of, well why don't you have more self confidence with that, or just try being yourself etc? (which was in essence blaming me for doing the very thing that kept me alive). So, I think that trying to understand and learn isn't a bad thing. I guess there isn't just one fix and you aren't the problem.

Sending you support 
dolly

Hmmm interesting. I would have a look at his website and what Marcons are, which is basically a staph infection of the sinuses that can be related to gut issues. Mold has other down stream issues such as hormone dysregulation too. Hopefully the doc will listen, but in my case I was told that the tests I was doing would never be administered by the NHS, but you never know.

 

It sounds like you've found a couple of temporary fixes and are seeing the doctor to help you sort it out, aware that the body migraines might be linked.

I know mold as a cause for issues sounds crazy and it took me eight months for me to believe my functional medicine practitioner that it might be linked, but it's been a big source of issues (including anxiety for me though mast cell stabilisers have helped with that amazingly). Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker had a list of symptoms on his website survivingmold.com.

Hoping you find something in your searches,

dolly