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Did that make sense?

Yes, I get what you're saying and until I read Fawning, I would have said that being helpful is "good," and ultimately helping people is good, but there's a line where we are helpful, and then helpful because fawning is an ingrained trauma response that we're not aware of. Specifically, because of how we have been raised (ie the one to take it all on, not incite conflict etc). The Fawning book has really helped open my eyes to this (and there is specifically a chapter on Fawning in Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed) and think it is perhaps more prevalent in scapegoats.

Sorry to hijack your journal PC. I just thought this was an important distinction to make and am happy to move the conversation somewhere else.

Many times on this forum, I've said things about how I believe we are the strongest and most helpful people on earth. We're the "light of the world" and "the salt of the earth" and any other old saying that we've heard and dismissed. I see our suffering as a result of us knowing how unfair life is, and that's what makes us not feel okay with abuse.

PC, I'm glad you found something in this book and I'm sorry that your family did that to you. I also thought it was interesting that she wrote about how the family picks the strongest, most empathetic etc etc member, which is different from Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Emotional and Physical Abuse (which I was also going to recommend tho it's more about the constructs so far in the family) where she and has a polarizing view of taking the "weakest" member of the family, which I don't agree with necessarily. I guess the story is who the family sees as the weakest, which is not necessarily true.

To me, I find the word "helpful" really loaded because that's the story that they wanted me to believe, that I had to be "helpful" and take this on to help the family survive, which of course, needing the family in any capacity, I did. But being helpful is also something that is keeping me stuck in many ways, and keeping me from my authentic self and a connection to healthy anger. Everything I did had to be for someone else because that's how I had to survive in the family.

My job was to "save" the family. In that role I had "love privileges". I got all the love I needed from her as in line with my training. Probably, at minimum, I had a sense of relative value as a baby. Although, when I'd failed to produce the intended effect, my "role" took on a whole new dimension. It was subtle, insidious, but it was implicit and everyone knew it, I was the strong one, the adventurer, the popular one... special. But of course the half-truth held an ugly reality just below the surface

Chart, I would encourage you to look at the definition of scapegoat more, or the examples given in the Scapegoating Families book where the scapegoat is the precise one used to save the family. I also put a blurb in my journal this morning about the relationship between parents and children of the opposite sex where the parent heaps praise on the child until they no longer follow the "rules," and then the scapegoating begins. Not that I want to project my own experience onto you, I just perhaps noticed the similarities.

And now who is being "helpful!" I am writing about this I guess in hopes of getting out of this place that I have found myself in since being a child, and the path to connecting to my own more authentic self, anger included.

Sending you all support,
dolly

Chart, I have started reading "Scapegoating in Families: Intergenerational Patterns of Physical and Emotional Abuse," and came across this:

"In some families, children are brought into the world to "bind" the family unit, "to keep the family together." Many couples are in conflict before the child is born, and they hope that children will help the marriage. When the conflicts do not disappear, they stay together for the "sake" of the children. The resentment they have towards each other may be transferred to the children.

Most of the time, if the child has not been scapegoated, he or she is likely to feel a strong need to get away from the family conflict and pathology...The scapegoated child, especially if the scapegoating is a lifelong pattern, will probably feel responsible for all thee family pain and want to stay physically and emotionally in order to make amends."

I'm guessing that you are the former perhaps, but thought it was interesting and worthwhile perhaps if it was the latter. For me, this scapegoating stuff is another very difficult layer of entanglement as well as an obstacle to healing.

Hey Chart,

I hope Schore's work is able to help you find some space in what you're going through.

Sending you support,
dolly

Thank you for your response PC. It's given me some things to think about. I get what you're saying and am happy that you've found that sense of connection for yourself, but also that that sense of connection was a way to better understand your Self and a path to your Self, so that you could be there for you when you need it. What's interesting, and maybe where some of the difference lies in our approaches is that I was once on the other end of that suicide equation (if I want to call it that) with my father who wasn't "saved" (again, lacking the word to call it). Maybe in a way, it has taught me the opposite on some level-- that the people you need to be there for you aren't going to be there for you.

I don't want to take up too much of your journal, but through the scapegoat book I'm learning about disenfranchised grief, which is grief that is not "acceptable" to be felt at the time. I learned that one of the causes of disenfranchised grief is suicide. Perhaps once I process my own disenfranchised grief that sense of connection will be easier, perhaps not.

Yes, the hug emoji is a tricky one for me too. Sometimes I feel it, and sometimes it just sort of feels like a band aid when people don't have the capacity to be there for you (which I totally get!), and something in my body has to sort of protect itself for reasons stated above. I also do feel a connection to you through your posts and our communications over the years and there is a real sense of earnestness and genuineness that does come through.

I'm sorry NK 

I know what that's like. It's like you're invaded, at least to me. I woke up the other morning thinking about how I had The Tibetan Book of the Dead when I was a teenager, and how when I went there my gm expressed what a connection she had to that place, not so much about my trip or interests. It was about her. I have come back to Tibetan Buddhism and it has had a big impact on me. I don't even realize that I say mantras most days as a form of "protection" and understanding, and I feel like perhaps this connection is partly obscured because it was "taken" from me. I'm sorry your m is trying to take something from you that you find important and enjoy.

Hey PC,

That's great that you've made that progress for yourself  Really, what an achievement.

My need to be emotionally "felt" by others, makes me quick to believe that's what others want also. I like being with people who want to feel cared about, and who want to care about others. So, I find myself wanting to share myself with people while they share themselves with me...emotionally. I assume that other people want to be heard and believed and cared about as much as I do.

For me, this is the tricky part. I had the experience where I was "loved" to the point of having no boundaries where FOO did things because they really "loved" me (well, they loved themselves). So, when people come too close like that it mimics the lack of space and self that I had with my gm. I also think, and I'm figuring out how all this scapegoating stuff applies to me, that I do one of the behaviours that scapegoated children do, which is called stuffing. That I don't express emotions etc because that was used against me. So, on the one hand I had to be extra open with my gm for example, but on the other with my m, I had to have this tough exterior (and the main thing is that no one did anything about it). When people are that open with me, I can't help to think what is their underlying motivation for doing so because with FOO it always came with strings attached, which I can understand would be triggering for those who wer cast out, or abandoned by their families. I think it's just a question of what our window of tolerance is.

Sending you support,
dolly

I'm sorry PC, that's a lot, but like you say it's time to not have it as your story any more.

[Dolly,]

Dolly, I'm expecting the book about scapegoating to arrive from Amazon today.
That comment you made, that fawning, and that for whatever reason we do it, it separates us from our authentic self is a good eye opener for me today. I can suddenly see how I am not living my life to be what I was created to be, but rather to serve others in order to feel safe. I spend most of my energy trying to feel safe, not so much from wild animals or storms, but from people. And not as much from strangers, but I mostly feel like I need to feel safe from the people I know; Family. Friends and peers.

Talk about a lose/lose dichotomy: I yearn for attachment, while being afraid of attachment. How does one find peace when he is afraid of what he wants?

Exactly, and I feel the same way. It's like a little dance I do with people, they can get close, but not TOO close. Ingrid Clayton describes the experience as fawning where you keep that little bit of Self for you when there is danger coming at you (paraphrasing). In essence, why do I think there is danger coming at me from "safe" people? I think this is maybe where the scapegoating and Betrayal Trauma (that Mandeville talks about in the scapegoating book) come in. No one was ever safe in my family, just the illusion of safe, so how do I know that that looks and feels like when I never had it? I guess knowing is one of the first steps to working to heal it.

Interestingly, she talks about Betrayal Trauma as also including institutions, and made me think of your comment about the church.

Hope you get something out of the book.

Sending you support 
dolly

Hi Hope,

Welcome to 2026 and your starting a new year 

That's a really good list of things for you to focus on.

All the best for 2026 

dolly

[Dolly,]

Dolly, I have a slightly different take on why you feel the need to help. I feel like we're in this together, and we are wired to share help with each other, and I receive your suggestions as gifts, not as budding in. I've always loved that old quip that says how we have two hands; one for giving and one for receiving. When we use both equally, the healing energy of the Universe flows through us like conduits. That's why I'm grateful anytime anyone on the forum shares their thoughts for the purpose of helping.

PC, I fully get what you're saying here, and I appreciate that you don't take it in the "wrong" way. I also know, for me, that fawning is a thing, and it's something that I'm realizing I've done from an early age because I had to and because it kept me safe. Lots of those fawning qualities are good --they help people etc-- but it's also a trauma response that keeps me from expressing my authentic self. There is another book that I'm reading at the moment called Fawning by Ingrid Clayton that is also very interesting. NarcKiddo posted a good video where she discusses an updated version of fawning, not one rooted in codependency and people-pleasing, with Patrick Teahan, which was very good.

And I'm VERY interested in reading the book you're reading. What we often call scapegoating, or "Identified Patient", I sometimes call the "Gilligan Syndrome". Gilligan made mistakes that kept the 7 characters stuck on the island.

I remember Gilligan's Island and think the adage almost fits, but I can imagine that you never made those mistakes in the first place, they were placed on you by your FOO; what you did as a child was never a mistake.


I came across scapegoating (I think?), or more interested in scapegoating through youtube videos by Jay Reid (which are good, but I don't really like the hard sell he gives on his website for his courses; but there is a lot of useful information in the videos) and it seemed to "fit," but until a few days ago, it was like I had this blinder on on how it happened in my family. I couldn't "see" how my m rejected, shamed, and blamed me for leaving and abandoning her. I think it can be so ingrained in the idea of who I thought I was, or just my subconscious, even though I consciously have talked about it and "knew" it wasn't "right" for her to do that. To me, I think scapegoating a whole other layer on top of narcissistic families.

I have a box of books (I wish I could show you a photo, because it's a surreal heavy box of books) that I carry with me everywhere. I read and read and read. I refer back and underline and take notes.

I also wanted to say about your previous post that I get this and have been talking about my previous therapist who I saw 20 years ago before anyone knew what cptsd was, and wanted to classify me as partly borderline or histrionic. I think I had to look for ways to explain things that are happening inside that no one had information for at the time. Even now while reading unfawning, she is talking about things that I have felt and described, but they fell into the category of, well why don't you have more self confidence with that, or just try being yourself etc? (which was in essence blaming me for doing the very thing that kept me alive). So, I think that trying to understand and learn isn't a bad thing. I guess there isn't just one fix and you aren't the problem.

Sending you support 
dolly

Hmmm interesting. I would have a look at his website and what Marcons are, which is basically a staph infection of the sinuses that can be related to gut issues. Mold has other down stream issues such as hormone dysregulation too. Hopefully the doc will listen, but in my case I was told that the tests I was doing would never be administered by the NHS, but you never know.

 

It sounds like you've found a couple of temporary fixes and are seeing the doctor to help you sort it out, aware that the body migraines might be linked.

I know mold as a cause for issues sounds crazy and it took me eight months for me to believe my functional medicine practitioner that it might be linked, but it's been a big source of issues (including anxiety for me though mast cell stabilisers have helped with that amazingly). Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker had a list of symptoms on his website survivingmold.com.

Hoping you find something in your searches,

dolly

PC - I'm glad you were able to take my comments about Chatgpt as just another side of a coin, and I would've been equally ok with a response of this is something that I really need to use right now. I guess/think this part of me wanting to offer information is an extension of my caretaking part (fawning 101) who needs others to be safe and ok, so that I in turn can be safe and ok.

I am also learning about grief and understanding that it's a complicated thing. Part of the reading (and well youtube videos on this topic) that I have been looking into this year is around scaepgoating in families and being the scapegoated child. I've started Rebecca Mandeville's book, Rejected, Blamed, and Shamed and she has a chapter regarding the complicated process of grief for scapegoated children because grief is masked by anger, which is easy for the scapegoated child to get stuck in because there is no way to resolve the issues with their family. As I understand it, it's a double bind because they suffer if they remain engaged with their family, and they suffer if they end contact with those they still love. When they finally have their sense of anger and injustice heard, it can give way to grief. This is called disenfranchised grief. As I understand, this kind of anger, and therefore grief, in scapegoated children is also unrecognized because they are the ones that are seen to be the problem (and therefore don't deserve validation).

Please take and leave if it makes sense to you. I'm sorry that you're having to go through the issues regarding credit card fraud, but adult PC seems to be handling everything well.

Sending you support,
dolly

Dalloway, I feel like I was listening to a lot of Beatles at a particular time in my life where I think I felt along the lines of where you are now. I was unhappy in university, "being" (and failing at that --almost literally and metaphorically) who my FOO wanted me to be, working hard to pursue a degree that I didn't really feel connected to because I didn't know who I was. I had a hint of something that I wanted to do, but didn't feel "ready" to do it yet, and made the decision to leave that school for another, which caused an outrage with FOO. I didn't come out of that experience "perfect" and the image of everything I ever wanted, but it was a step along the way to uncovering all of this.

So, I feel for you, but also sometimes these "hopes" can be anchors that keep us tethered to a certain place. I had to accept that I didn't (and don't) have all the answers, and I didn't (don't) know how it is all going to work out, just that I was going to try and do it for myself and not what FOO wanted. Of course, there are/were many different strings to this anchor in feelings, patterns, etc but I kept trying to move forward and lessen its weight.

Sending you support,
dolly