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Thank you for explaining, Woodsgnome.  Indeed I had not perceived that.  It is interesting to learn of the Freeze type.  Comparing myself with your description of the way you experience things, it seems indeed correct that I am not essentially a Freeze type.  So that is good to learn, namely it means that I can probably not really extrapolate from my own case to Freeze types.  But I do sympathize strongly, and very cordially wish you well.  Be strong and please keep faith in yourself.

Hello Woodsgnome,

Then I will immediately abuse your hospitality and go on roaming again:

but it also makes one more discerning, and/or compassionate considering what went before.

Lately the thought is sometimes crossing my head that the world can be divided cleanly into two kinds of people, namely (1) on the one side the abusers, the bullies; and (2) on the other side the people who are being abused/bullied or who have a history of being abused.  And that the only ones capable of compassion toward others are the ones with a history of being abused, because they are the only ones who understand what it is like.  My impression truly is that the people in group (1) seem not to grasp the idea of Love, and seem to truly operate on the basis of "big fish eat little fish" and to even truly take pride in their heartlessness.

And then since I have come to think that Love (the capacity for valuing people) is a wonderfully enriching thing for oneself as an individual, then I further think that this is a huge silver lining; and presupposed that we survive and heal, that maybe we in group (2) are fortunate to have found out what Love and compassion mean.  Or am I kidding myself and is this just a complicated mental knot I am making in which I effectively and unintentionally justify the bullies?

With best regards and be well.

Sorry Woodsgnome if I have been hijacking your thread.  (I easily get caught up in enthusiasm and in a conversation, forgetting the context of things.  Also, I seem to have a hard time ignoring things and fighting my automatic response to reply to EVERYTHING.  I have all the ADHD symptoms.:-))

So 'recovery' -- as in returning to a certain state of mind or time -- brings up a mind-space which can trigger my memory.

Understood.  However, these same memories (which are admittedly gruesome), don't they *also* generate energy, energy that helps bring you forward on the path of becoming your own person?  I mean, looking back and remembering is NOT ONLY an abhorrent thing, it is ALSO a helpful thing (despite being abhorrent).  The very gruesomeness of the things from the past push you forward.  At least that is how I in my own situation perceive (experience, feel) things.  Is it different in your case?

Bringing this thread back to where it started, my desire to re-establish firm boundaries with a bothersome sibling was my main point. Not without lots of internal struggle, I felt like this time I was better at firmly communicating this, but as I was dealing with a narcissistic sibling it remains to be seen if it truly took hold. I at least feel like this action helped me further down my new trail.

Yes!!  Definitely.  This is a success.  I would say, if the very *conflict* (the confrontation with that narc sibling) pushes the "Higher Self" to come out as an automatic response then you have, to all intents and purposes, basically recovered.  Your "wiring", the normal healthy wiring that a healthy person has to resist assaults upon their "self", has already recovered to a good base level.

which is what I meant by referring to what I call "higher Self".

Sorry.  You are right.  I have been nitpicking on words.  The word doesn't matter, it's only the meaning that matters.

Be well and be strong.

I am now at a loss as to how to function at this point as I am no longer able to work or live on my own.
My biggest obstacle as I see it, is that part of my psyche that "switches" back to my younger damaged self, sometimes for weeks on end.  My conscious mind goes completely offline to such a degree that I don't recognize myself in the mirror.  How do I navigate this?

Hello Looking4kindredspirit58.  I think that on this forum you have found them.

Indeed that is very correct, CPTSD is different from PTSD.

I assume you have read the book by Pete Walker, _Complex PTSD_?  That book has been such a huge help to me.  He adresses what he terms "emotional flashbacks" -- seems similar to the "switches" that you describe.  (Note: I myself am clearly much less traumatized than you, my own "emotional flashbacks" are much less severe. But I still recognize all of the symptoms of Cptsd that Walker mentions.)

I think that *the* way towards healing is to find HEALTHY connections, connections with other people that are based on Love, instead of based on narcissism and abuse.  Maybe this forum can be a first step towards healthy connections.   A connection remains basically a connection, even if it is anonymous and via the internet.  On this forum, we are all damaged people in some way or other, i.e. people who despise abuse and narcissism, and who in that way are of the same mindset as you.

Also, I think that your post demonstrates that you already have found your way out.  I think communication with others is the way out.  Communication with people who are not narcissists.

Be well and be of good heart.  You are on the right path.

Hello all, here is finally my self-intro.

Many thanks to the people who created and who are running this forum, and to the people who fill the forum with life.

About me: 53 years old, grew up under narcissistic parents and in a narcissistic family (with emotional abuse and neglect, but no physical abuse).  That my father is very clearly narcissistic (meaning NPD, of the sneaky, "covert", type) I discovered only about 4-5 years ago.  (That is how "deep inside" things one is as a child of a narcissists, so deep inside things that one doesn't even recognize the narcissism.)  Judging from the symptoms listed in the book by Pete Walker, I definitely have Cptsd (although my Cptsd is maybe(?) less severe now than it has been in the past).

I cut loose from my father, entirely, about 3 years ago, and he no longer troubles me mentally.  The thing that brought me to this forum is my recognition that I am still struggling with my mother.  Namely, I am discovering that my mother is to a certain extent a narcissistic person as well.  Probably below diagnosis as clinically NPD, but still a person who has no idea what Love is and who is very controlling, and my main problem with her is that (as I am discovering) she has severe problems LETTING GO of her children.  Just a few days ago, I found the term "emotional incest" on the internet -- I still have to read up on that term but it seems very likely to me that I am a victim of this "emotional incest".  I feel that up till now (where I am finally recognizing it), this thing has been emasculating me.  I would very very much look forward to hearing of other men who have similar experiences.

---
Another big topic for me (which I will probably start a new thread for in due time) is the topic of LOVE.  I mean this word Love not in the sense of sex or romantic love, but in the sense of the love between friends.  One very crucial aspect of Love that I think I am discovering is that Love means that one leaves the other person intact as a person, i.e. one allows the other person to be themselves, to be their own individual person with their own views and their own thoughts and opinions.  I am coming to the point of view that Love is in all ways the opposite, the antithesis, of Narcissism.

Specifically, I posit the thesis that narcissists do not understand what Love is.  For the reason that the narcissist is not able to respect boundaries, not able to accept that the other person is a separate person with their own life.

And also, specifically I posit the thesis that Love is *the* crucial component that is needed for healing from growing up under narcissistic parents.  Namely first of all to discover for yourself the stance of Love (i.e. to discover your capacity for loving others, which is IMO such a huge generator of energy in yourself).  And secondly, finding the Love of others for you (meaning first of all: FRIENDS who care for you, friends who are not narcissists).

Many thanks.  Everyone be well and be healthy.

Hello again Woodsgnome (taking the liberty to CAPITALIZE your username),

A person can remain stuck in the mind-chatter.

That is very well said.  I couldn't agree more.  Just reading words, without these words having a connection to you that you directly FEEL inside, is not enough.  It's not about the words, it is about how things connect with you.

building an entirely new approach to life out of the ashes.

Again very well said indeed.  For me myself, this is a crucial point.  To finally build MY OWN life for myself, after decades of "fawning".  My own life, built on the base of my own views and on the base of my own approach (instead of the approach dictated to me by my narc parents).

I don't see the concept of recovery as troubling or scary though -- on the contrary, I would say it is growth, rebirth.  And therefore energizing.

Personally, speaking for myself, I'm not sad to leave "the old" (i.e. the garbage in my family and in my old life) behind and to cut loose from it.  Of course, one could say that part of the old remains; namely yourself, your own personality, remains.  But I think your own "real" personality is also partly "new", meaning that over time (and maybe? especially as you heal and grow), step by step you discover more fully who you really are deep down inside.

I totally agree that the most important thing is to find a PATH (toward healing) that works FOR YOU.

Be well.

Hello Woodsgnome, many thanks for your friendly reply.  Happy to be here.  (Though I hope I am not too "assertive" a type of person for this forum.)  (To everyone: Please do criticize me whenever I say something questionable or hurtful. One of the reasons why I am here, is to learn.)

I think I am probably a Fight-Fawn type (or maybe Fawn-Fight, I'm not sure).

"Heartfulness" -- I like that term.  Captures the fact that "Mindfulness" is not really about logical thinking, but more about "feeling", discovering what "feels" right and what "feels" wrong.  I am saying this as a person who is very very much a logical, rational thinker.

Below is the complete text from the heading "Mindfulness", pages 28-29, from Pete Walker, _Complex PTSD_.

Best regards to you.  Be well and be healthy.


<quote begin>

MINDFULNESS

Psychologically speaking, /mindfulness/ is taking undistracted time to become fully aware of your thoughts and feelings so that you can have more choice in how you respond to them.  Do I really agree with this thought, or have I been pressured into believing it?  How do I want to respond to this feeling -- distract myself from it, repress it, express it or just feel it until it changes into something else?

Mindfulness is a perspective that weds your capacity for self-observation with your instinct of self-compassion.  It is therefore your ability to observe yourself from an objectife and self-accepting viewpoint.  It is a key function of a healthily developed ego and is sometimes describes as the /observing ego/ or the /witnessing self/.

Mindfulness is a perspective of benign curiosity about all of your inner experience.  Recovery is enhanced immeasurably by developing this helpful process of introspection.  As it becomes more developed, mindfulness can be used to recognize and dis-identify from beliefs and viewpoints that you acquired from your traumatizing family.

I can not overstate the importance of becoming aware of your inner self-commentary.  With enough practice, mindfulness eventually awakens your fighting spirit to resist the abusive refrains from your childhood, and to replace them with thoughts that are self-supportive.  Mindfulness also helps you establish a perspective from wich you can assess and guide your own efforts of recovering.

Chapter 12 contains detailed instruction for enhancing mindfulness, as do the writings of Steven Levine, Jack Kornfield and John Kabat-Zinn.

Finally, it is important to note that mindfulness tends to develop and expand in a progressive manner to all levels of our experience, cognitie, physical and relational.  Mindfulness is essential for guiding us at every level of recovering, and we will examind this principle more closely throughout the book.

</quote end>


To be complete:

The Chapter 12 that he refers to in this passage, further has the following headings that may be related to Mindfulness: (for now I'm omitting the text from these headings from Chapter 12)

p.251 : Mindfulness Metabolizes Depression
p.252 : Somatic Mindfulness
p.252 : Somatic Awareness can therapeutically Trigger Painful Memories
p.253 : Introspective Somatic Work
p.254 : Dissolving Depression by Fully Feeling it

The books mentioned in the passage quoted above are defined in the biblioographies in Walker's book as follows:  (I have not yet seen these books)

- Steven Levine, _Who Dies_, 1982 { About: Mindfulness and radical acceptance }
- Jack Kornfield, _A path with Heart_, 1993 { About: Using meditation to increase self-compassion }
- Jon Kabat-Zinn, _Mindfulness for Beginners_, 2012

Hello Woodsgnome, new member here.

Have you ever considered that this "Higher Self" is simply your "self"?  Your self that has been suppressed this whole time, now coming out.  I.e. that there is nothing "higher" or "supernatural" to it, it is simply *you*.  The "you" inside that feels it when something is right and when something is not right FOR YOU. 

Have you had a look at page 28 in Pete Walker, _Complex PTSD_, about what he calls "Mindfullness"?  Quote: "[...] Mindfulness is taking undistracted time to become fully aware of your thoughts and feelings so that you can have more choice in how you respond to them.  Do I really agree with this thought, or have I been pressured into believing it?"

I think Walker's point here is that every healthy human being has this "self" inside them that tells you when something is right or wrong FOR YOU -- note: for YOU, and not for the narcissist.  Obviously, narcissistic indoctrination means that the narc suppresses this healthy inner self in his victims.  The narc hijacks you psychologically, kills your "self".  We victims have been trained from infancy to suppress our inner selves, and to act as a slave to the narcissist.

Be well.

Hello Suffersilence,

I have a similar thing.  I was born in the Netherlands, and about 15 years ago I moved to Germany (after finding a job there).  I rationalized this to myself at the time as wanting to see another country.  But the reality was that I simply felt hemmed in, pressurized, and needed to get away.  About 4-5 years ago, I finally discovered that what had been going on all along is that my parents (and also my whole family) are narcissists.  So the moving to another country was my "unconscious self" escaping.

Now, 15 years later, I am very very glad that I left the immediate geographical surroundings of my parents.  I did not go totally No Contact at first, but only later.  But the geographical distance did help me hold on to sanity, and I think it helped me develop.

Question to you: Have you thought about the possibility that your siblings (who still are contacting your mother) might be narcissists as well?  (Or that they may be so deeply "brainwashed" by the narc parenting that they do not even perceive the narcissism themselves.)  My whole family is narcissistic.  Literally NO ONE in my whole family seems to understand what Love is (one crucial aspect of Love is, I think, that you accept the other person as a full individual, and leave the other person the space to be themselves, to be their own person).  Maybe your case is similar.  Families create a kind of "mental space" in which they live, in which habits of thought reside.  It is hard, as a member of a family, not to be infected by the habits of thought that live in the family.  Children of course unconsciously copy the habits of thought of their parents.  Maybe your siblings simply do not know better.

I have a similar situation with my brother.  He is a relatively nice person (who does not pressure me in any way) and we communicate relatively well, and to some extent he has understood that our father (who is much worse than our mother) is narcissistic.  I've gone completely No Contact with my father, but my brother currently is still keeping contact with him.  My point is that I believe that my brother still has not FULLY understood what narcissism is.  One symptom of this is that he still has not understood what Love is.  In that regard he has not yet escaped the unhealthy habits of thought that reside in my family.

So my point is that it is not enough to escape from narcissistic parents.  You also have to escape from the habits of thought that reside in a "narcissist family" and that the family keeps propagating to its newborn members.

Infected family members facilitate the narcissists, by their social pressure to keep in contact with your parents.  I think the point there is that these family members simply DO NOT KNOW BETTER.  They are acting out of ignorance.  So in that regard they are not to blame.  However, the upshot is that unwittingly they do pressure you, and this pressure is harming your healing process.

So your siblings, since they do not see what is going on, are in fact unwittingly HARMING you by their peer pressure.  Therefore you can not rely on your siblings in your process of healing.  The burden for getting better is on you.  You yourself are the guardian and protector of your sanity and health.  Find people *outside* your family that you can talk with.  Create your own group of friends, your own "family".

Be well and be strong.
Greetings from Germany.

Hello Pioneer and Dreamriver,

Allow me to put in another point of view.

I'm new in the forum, this is my first post.  A big Thank You to the people who created this forum and who run it, and also thanks to the members who fill the forum with life.  A forum like this is such a help.

I'm 52, come from a family that is significantly narcissistic, and grew up under a deeply narcissistic father, and a very controlling mother (with emotional abuse and neglect, but no physial abuse).  Judging by the symptoms described in the book by Pete Walker, I definitely have Cptsd.

My mother has severe problems letting go of her children.  Even with me at age 52, she still keeps sending me money.  I think in my case, this money is a means for her to keep me locked to her.  Even until this age, she has kept me locked in this mind state of *dependency*.  Which I am now coming to think is deeply unhealthy.  Also, I am coming to think that this thing is emasculating me.

Pioneer and Dreamriver, may I ask your ages and your sex?  (Or should one say "gender" on this forum?)

Of course every case is different, but I wanted to put in my perspective anyway.

My opinion is that it is NOT good, and that it is unhealthy, to accept money from parents when you as the adult child do not feel comfortable with accepting the money.

My reasoning:

- The role of parents should be above all to put healthy ADULTS into the world.  Adults meaning people who can function on their own.

- It is NOT the role of parents to use their children as emotional crutches for themselves.

- Therefore, a part of the task that parents have is to further it that their children grow up, and to further it that their children become independent.  Or at least, parents should ALLOW adult children the space to be independent EMOTIONALLY.

- Allowing your child to be an independent individual is a work of LOVE.  My view is that controlling and narcissistic parents who can not let go of their children (because they need their children as emotional slaves or crutches for themselves) lack the capacity for Love.

- For the act of giving anything (whether it is money or anything else), the emotional dimension is MUCH more important than the material dimension.  I posit the view that when a healthy emotional dimension is lacking in the giving, that the giving thereby becomes an act of control.

- Things (whether money or anything else) should always and only be given out of LOVE, and should only be given in a situation where the giver loves and respects the recipient.  Where "Love and respect" mean, crucially, that the giver views the other person (the recipient) as a complete individual in their own right, meaning that the giver respects and accepts the feelings and wishes of the other (the recipient).

- If things are given WITHOUT there being love and respect, then this means that the giving is an act of control, and therefore unhealthy.

- MUCH much more important than material things is that people love and respect each other.  Love and respect are much more valuable.  So therefore this means that if a parent does NOT give love (because probably incapable of it) but does give money, that therefore there is something amiss.  I mean, if the parent REALLY cared about you and really loved you, they would have been capable of sending you a simple friendly postcard, instead of money.  But the simple giving of love, this they do NOT do.  Therefore, by my mathematics, the gift of money is therefore NOT an act of love, and therefore it is something else.

- As an adult child of controlling or narc parents, your "duty" in life (your duty to God, for those who are religious) is to be true to yourself and to become an independent HEALTHY adult.  I believe that part of the process of becoming healthy, is to stop the unhealthy emotional control that your parents have been exerting over you since you were young.  Therefore my opinion is that NOT accepting the money (money given not because you need it or asked for it, but only because your parents somehow "need" to give it) is an important step on the path towards becoming healthy.

- I politely disagree with you Dreamriver on accepting the money.  You're basically saying "it's free money, so why not use it".  I think that the problem is that the emotional dimension is much more important than the material dimension.  Materialism is, I think, part of the reason why the world has gotten into this state of narcissistic parents who are incapable of love.  Everything in current culture seems to have been reduced to money.  But the crucial point is, human relationships, and parenting, is about human interaction which has a human "heart" to it.  Ask yourself: would you want a FRIEND who constantly buys you things but who doesn't connect with you on a human level?  Would such a friend feel comfortable to you, would it be a real *friend*?  So if in friendship, the currency is the heart rather than money, then how much more should the same hold for the even more essential relationship between parent and child?  A parent who only "buys" things for the child but who has no "human" connection to the child, I posit that that is not a real parent.

- My opinion is that it is much healthier to come out and refuse the money, than to bottle up your feelings inside yourself and accept the money.  Dreamriver, your view seems to be that as a child of narc parents one should "play along" with them, i.e. quietly accept the money, while inwardly rejecting the controlling that the parents probably aim for.  My problem with this is that this means that you are emotionally still bottling things up inside yourself.  You're still pandering to the unhealthy habits of your parents to you.  My point is that going through the motions, even if you're telling yourself that on an intellectual level you're not really buying into your parents' mind-control games any more, still has an EMOTIONAL EFFECT ON YOURSELF.  This is because there is a link between action and emotion.  Taking a walk when we feel down helps lift our spirits.  Working in an office that is comfortably furnished according to your needs helps you do better work.  External things DO impact on us emotionally.  So my conclusion is that going through the motions and pandering to your parents (by the act of accepting the money) is taking an emotional toll on you, that damages your process of healing into a healthy independent adult.

Judging from my long post, I guess I needed the opportunity to get all that off my chest.  It is so good to be able to vent these feelings.  Am I too emotional and not seeing things clearly in what I wrote above?

Regards to you all.  Be strong and be healthy.