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Hi Chart,

I've come to understand a bit more how this stuff shows up in me a bit more over the past few years. A recent revelation has been Healing From Developmental Trauma both the first book and the Practical guide. It deals with the connection survival type which very much relates to infancy trauma. Perhaps it might help in understanding the foundations of what you're experiencing a bit more. He has a very good explanation of "impending doom" and where that comes from when you tried to resolve things as an infant with no resources.

I've also recently started seeing a NARM therapist, which sort of hits straight to the core of issues, but can also just leave one feeling a bit sark and heavy. It's only been a month, so waiting to see how it goes.Most of the infancy stuff is also preverbal, so emotions etc coming up for me often don't have a logical/thinking component which I rely on, so I think I sort of spin out with stuff like that.

I'm sorry you're going through so much at the moment and hope you can find some space with that.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Jim,

I'm glad you were able to talk things out a bit and feel better about the situation. I'm glad you've found a sense of direction.

Thank you for your kindness and sending some back,
dolly

Reflecting on my session with t and I think I see some dynamics happening, which have come up before, but didn't realize/understand how important, or rooted (if that's the right word) they are?

T was explaining where she thought my issues with relationships stem, or why maybe I keep choosing a certain type of person (her words). She's used a traffic light analogy to explain interpreting someone's actions before because I think I can "see what I want to see" at times. (I think this is not understanding what's going on internally perhaps, and wanting to connect in a way that I didn't have growing up, which I guess is me at times, thinking I'm broken). I've sort of come to realize in my last interaction with someone, is that the traffic light is way too far down the process, and it's my interpretation of things before it even gets to that point where I feel like things take a detour (keeping with the traffic metaphor). I've realized that the "chase," or even that initial moment of spark, connection, and potentiality make me shut down, and is where I start interpreting things as dangerous, or trying to read into someone's actions. So, it all progresses into this "game" of are they going to be this person (hurtful etc), and me trying to find evidence of that. Not particularly healthy and not really something I want to do.

But what I noticed in discussing this with t, and what I said to her, was that I don't feel like there's a lot of agency in these "interpretations," and I think it makes me very defensive. What I noticed this morning is that I think it's a familiar pattern of maybe disconnection? I didn't have/wasn't allowed to have an internal world I think growing up, and I'm very protective of mine now, and feel like on some level I will choose that over connection because it's survival. Not listening was said a lot to me growing up, and now, I think it's probably similar at times. If I don't feel like my internal world is respected (thoughts/contributions etc), I think I just tune out. I think this is also probably true for relationships, that I would rather protect my inner world (and freedom) than connect. I find people want to tell me a lot about the things I'm doing in my life and how they're wrong (sounds like my gf), or maybe this is what I stick on, and not the people who don't because then it brings up the feelings around connection?

I will bring this up with t and see what happens. I know in the past I've said that the dynaminc feels like my gm at times where I'd say something and I get defensive because I don't feel like it's heard.
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I also watched Baby Reindeer and wow did that stick with my. I think it shows the process of self-hatred that so many people go through, and maybe how and why we do get stuck in these patterns. 

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It's also interesting some of the things that have been coming up, and the feelings around relationships which are thinking about all the times I've been treated badly, and how I think I want to suppress that, or maybe how I don't actually feel and recognize that as something that happened growing up. The other was that I feel like I'm just trying to be a nice person and it's never recognized, or what people want. GoSlash's comment was interesting that we try to be the things we didn't have growing up. So, maybe I'm trying to be nice because that's what I didn't have, wanting someone to recognize that, but it's just my own unhealed stuff and not an authentic connection? Or I keep thinking that I'm not a nice person because I'm taking on my family's stuff, or that if I don't try and  save everyone, I'm not nice?

Hi Slash,

I'm glad you found the toy from your time with your foster family and it's helped you connect to a part of you. It sounds like there was probably a lot of difficult things for a three year old to process at the time and it's good to have something calming.

Thank you for what you wrote about becoming the person as an adult you wish you had around as a child. It's given me some food for thought and perhaps an insight as to why/where some of my rigidity about being "nice" comes from.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Slashy,

I feel you. I think it's perhaps both a feature and a bug for me, and have been exploring connection with a NARM therapist.

I think the bug part for me is when my old beliefs that kept me safe (ie being mistrustful, closed etc) actually pop up unknown and sabtotage relationships and connection. I guess it becomes a matter of perspective. We can feel very happy in our isolated worlds, but maybe there's also the inkling that something else is out there. For me, it pops up when I'm trying to make new friends. I rarely approach people (though that's not true as I'm pretty "chatty"), but I guess when I want to trust someone as a friend, and feel like maybe they'll be there for me, this stuff comes up. Superficial relationships where you want to feel like you don't require anything from anyone, only go so far. Or so I'm told. I have a difficult time believing that people don't want something from me on some level, and to me, that feels like betrayal (?) though I don't know the right word for it. However, it's very good at keeping all the feelings I want to keep hidden, hidden. I guess it just feels "safer" to do things like that, and it's whether or not that "safety" is actually warrented or not as an adult. Perhaps it's just learning to trust myself in the instances where it is warranted and where it isn't.

Sending you support,
dolly

So, NARM session this week was...interesting. It always feels like let's dig to the core of the issue and show you your two sides if you can understand and integrate them?

Wee talked about connection and how the feeling of stepping back and not doing so much allowed me a little space. When I try to feel into that space, or think about connecting, I saw a very protective, kind part, that I guess I trust. Like they are doing the best for me. When I try to get that part to step back a bit to allow me to feel the connection, I got something very familiar, kind of a smirk that was like, "you don't know how the world works," which is something I heard a lot growing up. I'm sort of struck now how much it reminds me of the connection with my gm. Something that seems very soft and loving, but if you try to step back from that, and have some independence, you are losing protection and there is danger. At the end of the session, it made me feel very guarded, like oh let's connect and it will be a big kumbaya. I guess growing up I learned that people connect with you because they want something from you, not because of you, and that's a difficult place to be in.

I also felt a lot of emotion around how difficult it was to love my m and gm so much, and watch them destroy themselves, and feel like there was nothing you could do to help them. I don't know if this was helping them so they could finally love me back and I could be seen because otherwise I guess there's a lot of grief and sadness there that's difficult to bear as well.

I also don't really feel like it's the connection that's the problem, or wanting to connect, but perhaps the age of the part that's wanting those things, and if perhaps, they are in "adult consciousness." I also guess that there's a part that doesn't want adult consciousness because it means letting these things go, or what that young part wants/hopes for. Also difficult that I guess those things are never going to be in the world - that love and acceptance? I don't know  what /whyy exactly?

Hi Jim,

Oh boy, can I relate and I'm sorry you're going through that right now. Break ups are awful.

I was reading on another forum about dating and someone was trying to discern if they were interested because they had a good chat, but then they seemed to be avoiding eye contact. All the commentators said, move on, she's not interested. I thought, as a fearful avoidant, I recognize how difficult it is to be "pursued," and how, even if I like that person, I would probably have difficulty showing it. It just struck me how different my perspective was from everyone else's, and how lonely I guess it is to be misunderstood like that, or feel that someone isn't on your "side."

I guess a recent "victory" for me is seeing how much of what I view of someone is/was my own projection. I met someone about a year ago and came to the conclusion that this was not a "relationship guy," and I'm pretty sure (was pretty sure) he fancied a lot of young, attractive women at the gym, which of course, is not how I see myself. So, I distanced myself and then a few months ago, it seemed like he was interested, but I was battling all these projections in my mind. A big one was, I think he's attractive and great, why would a guy like that want me? Something must be off. I was really trying to work out if these things were "true" or not. It's sad because it took me a long time to work out that this is my stuff (where and why I learned it and why I'm holding onto it is another matter), but I can see that it's mine and not the "truth," or the truth where I can't trust this person because of it. Is it difficult for someone to deal with this? Probably. Did I screw it up? Also probably, but it feels different this time like I can step back and really take responsibility (?) for it without feeling the shame and self attack so much. Don't get me wrong, it really sucks, but I also don't feel I did anything "wrong" in the way my child mind is imagining. I'm an adult, I can deal with it. I'm not the dependent child that had to worry about the rejection of a caregiver for survival.

I've been reading a book called the Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma and he talks about hope.

"Splitting and identifying with the "bad self" provides hope. If they can get rid of the parts that are seemingly not liked by the caregivers, then they imagine they will be loved. Or if they work really hard to be what their caregivers expect of them, then they will be loved. Internalizing the environmental failure as their failure leads to shame-based identifications that feel protective and maintain hope. It protects the attachment relationship. It preserves the possibility that there is still love in the universe. As painful as it is to feel defective, faulty, and unlovable, it gives a child hope that they maybe can fix themself, and that maybe then they will be loved."

For me, when a relationships doesn't go anywhere, or that "hope" is gone, I'm usually left with the feeling that I'm defective, or there isn't any love in the universe and that's a hard place to be in. I think I've slowly been trying to take things at my own speed, and not trying to "be" the person I feel like I have to be in order to be loved, or what I learned growing up. Did things not work out between me and him? Probably, but I feel a little bit more space for me now. I'm not out of the woods emotionally, and can see myself reacting (probably protest reactions like in the book, or shame attacks to a degree), but I'm hoping that I can recognize them for what they are and try to act accordingly. I also feel like even if I reacted and took the projection to be true, I was able to step back, recognize what I did, apologize, and not stay in a place of blame or anger. Even at myself if I might have screwed it up.

This is long and I think I'm using it to work out some of things I've been going through recently, so please take what you need, if anything, and leave the rest.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi ScapeGoat69,

I was also a scape goat in my family and have the feeling (belief) that I will be punished for standing up for myself that I carry around my life. I hope you're able to find what you need on the forum 

dolly

Ah I think I understand a bit better now - that it wasn't a member of your FOO, but his in the gothic house. I wonder perhaps if your doing the work with your FOO might bring up issues with his FOO that he would prefer to not address, and just leave as they are? But that's my interpretation.

 Glad you have some positive feelings now

[Maybe most of the time though, it doesn't get to that point because I think I'll shut down and not trust someone, but when I do, it's opening this relationship dynamic.]

I guess I feel like it's hard to let someone in who might want to control things because I've had to do it on my own for so long, and if that person leaves, I'd be left having to survive and might not be in a position to do that. This reminds me of my gm, or perhaps a belief of hers that she had. Tho I don't know how much of it, if she was on her own after the divorce, was wanting to be taken care of and not wanting to go out and do things on her own.

In the psychologists reports, he tried to motivate her about reaching out to clients, or feeling like she could reach out to clients, doing the necessary leg work I guess. I think she kept feeling like she was lacking, or not good enough (?), and it was hard for her to do that. She didn't receive any support either I think from my gf, who could be very critical and I'm sure put what she was doing down. If it wasn't known to him, it was probably useless or stupid, or you'd be a fool to believe that. Or he wanted things in his life a certain way, and this was interfering with that. I can't remember his words exactly, but probably something along those lines. I think she preferred being in a relationship where she was taken care of, I guess that safety.

Perhaps I'm processing things and feelings empathetic here, seeing some of myself in my gm, or what I'm taking from their relationship and what my own struggles are. Then I remembered her saying (judging)  that my sgf wasn't that bright, or about what he did for work or something like that, and it cracks a bit. I think it makes me understand my own trigger point, which I've been realizing over the past few weeks, about being lied to. Like wait a minute, I've been honest and believing (with an open heart here), acting with empathy to your situation, and someone has taken advantage of that. Someone gave me the impression that they were going to nurture me (I guess by my own internal guidelines of what that looks like and not being entirely "open"), and I was empathetic towards what they said they were going through, but I don't think that was returned/shared and that equals rage. Maybe most of the time though, it doesn't get to that point because I think I'll shut down and not trust someone, but when I do, it's opening this relationship dynamic.

It's interesting because I was thinking this week that I just feel like I"m being a nice person, and trying to act with an open heart, why does this happen? Writing this out, I can see that being the nice person is what I had to do in my family (because I felt I had to take care of my gm who was going through those things with my gf? But she kept going back to him), and I kept getting lied to/mainpulated/treated like garbage and trying to work things out. I guess it's hard for me to not take that and project it onto other people that I want to care about. It's just easier not to trust them from the beginning (because I'm expected to give too much?)

I feel like I'm so close to getting something here, to making a connection (interesting word), but I can't put my finger on it. That I don't have to be a "nice" person? That the world isn't going to fall apart? That connecting to someone doesn't mean there is deception, and maybe what feels/seems like deception, or being lied to isn't really that? This "narrative' is so locked in. I can't really "feel" this though, just think it.

Looking at what I wrote about my gm above, I can also maybe see why working so hard at something is important because I don't want to end up like that, being the mercy of someone who is treating me badly. Maybe I'm still holding onto this family narrative/dynamic by feeling/thinking that as well (and still trying to save her by working so hard to be on my own? Do the things she couldn't/didn't do?)

Realizing that the statement in bold is a process of disconnection and not trusting people means that I'm disconnecting from them when it's the opposite that I want, connection (and to be understood). But I guess there's also times that disconnection is helpful when people aren't being honest, and here's the circle - when are people being honest? Maybe this is increasing my window of tolerance to give people time to show me if they're going to be trustworthy or not, and if not, it's not my fault (or I won't feel shame for trusting them?).

I'm also recognizing how much of my stuff is a projection onto someone ie that he wants a young gym bunny (gm belief that men will leave you for someone younger); that he's not a relationship guy (that men will leave you); and that I can't trust him (gm saying you can't trust men). The dream I had where she was standing in line, saying that she will buy me an apple juice and never doing that (taking my harmony, pleasure, fertility, sexual awareness etc as per the meaning of apples in the dream dictionary), sort of helps me see that I'm still carrying these beliefs for her and it's getting in the way of my harmony, pleasure etc in relationships. The other part of the dream is where she and I were out on the road, and I was worried/thinking people were not going to think I was a nice person. I see too, how I've been "groomed" from a young age to be like that - be nice and take on peoples' stuff, to not abandon her and help her through her difficulty. The difficult part is that those are nice (that word again)/aspirational things to be in life. I guess it's the feeling like if you're not those things (human basically), then you're somehow flawed. Like I don't get to make mistakes?

I think this is all a bit all over the place. I'm sort of thinking out loud here with some things that are going on. 

Hi Hope,

This is just my interpretation so please ignore if it doesn't feel right. I wonder if your husband in your dream is a kind of transferance where he is a "normal" part of your life, and is seeing the FOO for who they are. That other, "normal' people would also be traumatized by them, and it's not just "you."

I remember reading a long time ago when I was first starting to pull away from my family that other people don't like change sometimes because they like you as you are, and change can be difficult for them because it means doing their own work. I was, of course, reading this in the context of an unNPD family, but perhaps it also means that there's nothing "wrong" with you for doing what you're doing. I hope you were able to have a good Easter weekend with your husband.

Sending you support   
dolly

Thanks NK - I've spoken with t a few months back and I think, along with the Toxic Shame book, that growing up in an NPD household means you are objectified and therefore relationships become transactional, which I think already exists in relationships to some extent. There's definitely superficial parts that appreciates how someone looks for example, but everyone has these? I guess for me, it becomes a sticking point because of how I was treated growing up (where emphasis was literally placed on how I looked at a young age and what my flaws were etc) and I think part of me wants some altruistic (superhuman?) person who doesn't want things like that from me. But I guess the reality is is that that person probably doesn't exist. I'm still trying to work my way around it. Same perhaps with money.

Hmmm reflecting on this, I know I have written that I've forgone relationships because of work (ie money I guess). Maybe that's how it comes into play? It's either survival (money) or a relationship? I guess earning money and being on my own means that I don't have to be at the mercy (or control) of someone else. My gm said she wanted this for me. I can understand why I might feel that way as well given how the relationships with men and women went in the family. As soon as my m had the money from my gf, my sf started acting as if she would leave him and made her change the title to the house to include them both. There was also financial stuff between my gm and gf.

I was speaking to someone the other day who mentioned that their child was helping his partner with the parent's house after the parent passed away. I said, with some cynicism, that it's always difficult when there's money involved, or something along those lines. They said nope, no money, it's all very amicable, and I'm like what? Do people actually go through things reasonably like that? Again, it reminded me of how difficult it is to have to not explain what your family  is like, or to tell them what's going on and have it be so far out of peoples' experiences that you feel you just have to keep it inside.

I guess on the plus side, I've read something in the NARM book which has sort of started me reframing my belief about myself. When I feel like I'm standing up for myself against people who are being unfair, childish, sexist, don't like me etc, when I don't want to take on peoples' snakey/underhanded behaviour (I can see how this relates to my sf, and probably family in general), I think I feel like I'm somehow being difficult. Like I'm being difficult for standing up to other things people can't "see," or that they want to say it's about me. Whether or not that's the case, I can see how I was also the "difficult" one growing up for pointing these things out in my family, for standing up against my sf's treatment of me. I was doing what I needed to do to protect myself in an abusive household (though why is it hard to call it that?) and I wasn't difficult, but every time I try to do these things, that's the image of myself that comes up. Why do I feel I need to "stand up?" I don't know, I guess it's a familiar form of protection. Others might find a way to avoid these people etc, but sometimes I feel like I just "find" myself in these situations.

Hi Cascade,

I feel, like you, that we process a lot of things in dreams. I also believe it's another, or can be, a very real consciousness. For example, Dream Yoga by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who teaches that really everything is a dream.

For me, I think violence in dreams relates to feelings/fears about protection and how we are/are not (were not) protected, and the violence isn't always physical violence, but that's what it feels like on some level. I have had dreams where I am being stalked with machine guns, or am having to fight/kill someone's family. These are usually when I'm dealing with men/relationships/intimacy which all feel very threatening to me on some level.

I agree with Lakelynn that it's hard to trust another's interpretation's of my dreams. However, surprisingly, I have  really good affinity with an online dream dictionary whose symbolism seems to fit with my dreams. So, I guess perhaps there is some universality to it.

I hope you are able to fiind some space with your dreams,
dolly

Hi PC,

I'm glad you enjoyed reading the Others Within Us. I found it extremely interesting and I also think Bob is a pretty cool guy. My discovery of him came through IFS and finding parts that didn't seem to fit. I guess this was my "scientific method," which was I'm going to trust the things that I'm being shown in my IFS experiences (which I am enacting with openness, honesty, compassion and a willingness to understand as much as possible; to be honest when and if I don't understand things and write them as they are etc), and then try to understand them. Perhaps the opposite of scientific method, but it lead me to a workshop with Osnat Arbel and Legacy Burdens and a workshop (and session) with Bob Falconer and Unattached Burdens. I went with, even if I don't fully understand what my system is showing me, I'm going to explore what it's showing me (and trust it I guess to some degree, but I would say i was probably 50/50 with that). There's also another interesting book by Ann M. Drake called the Energetic Dimension where she discusses some of the things you're writing about and perpetrator introjects for example.

I'm glad you've had success with calorie counting. I remember reading something a male weightlifter said about cutting and how he would only drop so low (I think it was 1850ish?) for a short period of time, say 4-6 weeks with at least 150g of protein because it wasn't healthy/sustainable. The definition of healthy is something that changes with the wind of course, and he's someone who was competing, but I wonder if going that low is actually having the opposite effect where it feels like a chore? I also wonder if having such a rigid set of guidelines makes it easier to say that you've failed etc (and confirm the negative voices/inner critic) if you're not able to meet them? I am of course not a champion body builder or dietician. My outlook has been that I have to find a way to make things sustainable long term, as more of a lifestyle change. I also eat chocolate most days because that's me. I also notice when talking to people in the gym who ask me about training, is they want everything right away, but I suggest to try and find things that are fun for them, or to find a way to make it fun because I think that's what's going to keep the consistency going. If you're super rigid because you have an idea of what you want to look like in three months (which is usually something unrealistic like a model for women), it's going to wear off quickly. If people compliment me on something I'm doing and they say I wish I could do that, I usually tell them that can do it too, and don't be fooled because it's taken me 4+ years to learn it. It's just probably going to take longer than they think, but find a way to integrate it into their lives that they want to keep doing it. Again, not an expert, this is just worked for me as a gym/exercise enjoyer.

Sending you support and a hug if that's ok 
dollyy

Hi NK,

Like PC said, I know snake pits like yours well. I know my own experiences of going through things like that, and while it has given me a wicked sense of humour, I think it's come at the cost of the little girl who was subjected to all that (and survived!). It was awful to deal with all the appearances/facades and fake realities where she had to protect herself instead of being protected as a child should be. I hope, and am glad, that you are able to distance yourself from that stuff.

Sending you support,
dolly