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Messages - Dutch Uncle

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Dutch, I would point out that you were not at all gentle with your peers in the swearing situation and the anger and offense is wholly justified on their part imo.  There is no conspiracy, no witch hunt, only understandable reactions to how you treated people. 

This is what a friend tells you - the truth.  It is embarrassing to make a mistake, I know that, we all know that.  It's in how you handle the mistake that matters. 

For the sake of your own recovery please try to get out of fight mode and see what I am trying to tell you, have been trying to tell you gently and privately at first and now clearly, emphatically and publicly.  You made a mistake in how you handled the swearing issue and some recognition of this and an apology are in order.

At this moment I’m not even sure anymore what would and what would not count as a “Fight” response, or if anything I do here or don’t would sufficiently count as “For the sake of [my] own recovery”.

I’ll be gone for at least a while.


From what you told me yesterday about your views /knowlege on my X's behavour- maybe the same applies here.
I think so, yes.

Yes, I do hope you get what you need from the help of the police - i hope they help basically, as you should have that help as you've asked for it and obviously need it.
I think I gained two things with this already:
1) I will now call the police much quicker, I think. I've now crossed that bridge once, the second time will be easier.
2) She will not get in again with a trick. I have already a mental image of her peeing in her pants, knocking at the neighbors etc. I'm past caring for that. If she is going to up the ante with fainting or a heart-attack or god-knows-what: I'll close the door and phone the emergency services. I don't know how to do first-aid anyway.

I like what you did with the ending there. haha.
I had a spark of creativity there. Glad you liked it. It made me smile too.

Thank you Hazy111. It's unfortunate this stuff resonates with you. A  :hug: for that.

May be denial and gas slighting from your mother. -debating she used a chat trick-
Dutch, is this a narcissist term-chat trick? I have to say -I do find the word amusing (in a good way)
I don't know. They lie a lot. Con-artists. It's a red flag for sure.

If she is not allowed on to yours on the first lace -it brings up the question- why was she there? -
Unless to speak to you outside.
Right. She wasn't there to speak to me, no matter where. She was there to get INTO my house, and shred me to pieces on home ground. Literally. If she would have succeeded, the more devastating the effect would have been. She has used that trick before, always successfully until 3,5 years ago, when it was only partially successful. I'm not sure, but I think she's been never been in since that one. I arranged to meet her in-town since.

hopefully you can start to feel emotionally more safe instead of living in what I  guessing is fear and hypervigelance.
Thanks. It will probably take a while more, but I'm already feeling more safe. Having asked for police protection is for me a sign I'm getting aware safety is an actual achievable goal. Before this I thought Freezing or Fawning were the only options I had. Now I've added Fight. With her Fleeing the scene.  ;D

 :aaauuugh: on him,

 :hug: to you.

Sorry, i have another question...hope its okayyyy...reply thought at your leisure...
And it's not even that 'deep down inside'.
It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.
You mean, he blocked out the fact i said no thanks...
but - he can access that if he thinks hard enough...and the answer- but he wont want to / wont do it- because he's afraid of being wrong?
So he does *think* i said something different?
He is trying to fool me- but is he trying to convince himself that i said yes?
I find it very hard to understand all this myself. But somehow the key to this all is we can't understand it, since we are not narc's/cluster B's. Or Asperger's as in the case with my dad. It requires a different mind-set. No empathy will ever get you (or I) there.

Long post about my own experiences. I'll give you the "TLDR summary" up front.
No, he is blocking YOU out from the fact you said "no thanks". He knows. And no way he is going to block that out. He wants YOU to block it out.
He doesn't have to think AT ALL. He KNOWS. He's not afraid of being wrong, he knows he is. He's afraid YOU knowing he's wrong. If you would tell him he's wrong, most probably he won't even be surprised. He'll throw a hissy-fit more likely.
He doesn't *think* you said something different. He wants YOU to think you said something different.
He wants to convince YOU that you said yes.
I assume this is (among other things) about him wanting you to get HIS phone. And that's all it is. He wants to have a piece of him ON YOU.
This time it is "all about you". About you being his, that is.

Here's the long post about my own experiences. Or rather, a step in coming out of the FOG. A lengthy process
I can only reply to your question with an example of my experience with my narc/cluster B (histrionic PD) mom. (quite possibly you're already quite familiar with what I'm going to say, but hey, I need to repeat all this to myself more or less daily anyway.  :aaauuugh: why not do it here again.)
DramaMama had an upcoming birthday-jubilee.  :cheer: Attention magnet!  :cheer: So she plans a big celebration in the summer prior to said Jubileeeeee. Which falls through as bro is going on a far east trip with his FOC that summer. So it gets rescheduled to next year. AFTER the actual Jubilee. I get a date. I bloody well make sure I mark it down. Not just in my agenda, but I dare say in every braincell I have. And every other cell I have to spare too.
When I actually go over to her to celebrate the birthday (on the day itself, in between Jubilee parties so to say) she mentions a different date for the Jubilee-Festivities as I had in my mind. I say: "Huh? wasn't that at date X?" "No way, uHPD mom says, "its never been that date, it's always been date Y!"  "Oh dear, I screwed up" I think. Oh well, no biggie, it's eight months to go. "Sorry mom, no problem, I'll be there, for sure. Sorry again for being not being even remotely concerned with the effects of my uncaring, inattentive and insensitive behavior."
While actually thinking: "No way I got this wrong. Too much is at stake here."
But hey, whatcha gonna do? Call her out? Its a no-win situation. So I budge. Fawn.

Next day I think: "I still only got all this in my brain, not on paper. I might have it all wrong AGAIN. (there you have it: questioning ones own judgement, based and backed up by memories). So I e-mail her: "Do I remember right now, it's date Y, right? I want to make sure I write the correct date in my diary now. Can you confirm?"
"Yes I can confirm, and by the way, you were right, it once was date X, I just forgot to tell you, and I also know how that came about, it's because you hurt my feelings three months ago." (well, actually it wasn't revealed to me that fast, this is the short summary of an our long e-mail go-and-forth)

So that's how close to the surface these "oh I forgot" tactics are for the cluster B/Narc/Histrionic. It's right under the surface, and I bet they know all the time. They just keep it hidden deliberately, since no-one can call them out on it. It's what's called "plausible deniability" in psychological terms. And the cluster B's thrive on it, and it's what drives us crazy. And the cluster B's know this. But they love that. It's what gets them their way.
We go  :stars:  and they go  :whistling: . And when you catch them in their lies, they go  :dramaqueen: and throw a pity party. Then their feelings are hurt AGAIN. Which to the cluster B only proofs that their original hurt, which 'inspired' the lying, cheating and forgetting from the beginning, was the right thing to do.
And thus the circle is back to where it began. No.Accountability.Ever. It simply never happened.
And you are the 'fool' to think it did.

With a bit of luck your Narc will do the same as my Histrionic did: getting caught in their own lies by telling a bigger one. Admitting one part and hoping they can get away by 'one-upmanshipping' that one with a trump.

The trick to entangle the mess is to say: "Ha! you just admitted to a lie! The rest you are telling me now must be a lie too!"
In my case, the perceived 'hurt' from three moths before was a boundary-bust-effort by her I didn't fall for. Of course she was hurt! So she 'upped the ante'. By trying to make me feel I had actually hurt her feelings by 'forgetting' her Jubilee-date. Which was impossible for me to remember, since she never told me!
Clever, isn't it?
No, it isn't. It's sly. A different ballgame altogether.
All this was not about me being at her Jubilee, but about my life revolving around her Jubilee. And she made sure I would keep spinning 'revolving' around it. Never to actually know what, how and when. Keeping me in constant demand.

In the very end, this story had an interesting twist.
All things considered, I personally had decided to give her a big present on her actual birthday. A 200 euro present. The day after (the day of the e-mail exchange) I had told her at some point: I'll be there, but please send me the program, and then I'll decide what parts I'll attend to. A few months later she cancelled the whole event. LOL.

I wonder if narc X...knows that i didnt say *yes* of accepting the phone?
I actually said to him, *thanks, but I dont trust that you'll pay it*
As far as I understand Narc's/Cluster B's: Yes, he did know.
if it hurt him ... did he just block my words out?
As far as I understand Narc's/Cluster B's: Yes, but only to his convenience. He knows. And it's not even that 'deep down inside'. It's pretty superficial. Not 'out in the open', but very next to that.
Its so scary when you know what is going on- you know what you said, and you know your being told otherwise. Don't want to go back to him if the choice became available. no no noooooo.
Very, vey scary. I so relate. And everybody thinks you're the crazy one. you are not.
The story you are telling is crazy. But it's his craziness, not yours.

Good grief, I have to tell myself that every day.

Belief in your own memories, Sienna. You know. Nobody else but you knows what you have witnessed.

I believe you too.
The receptionist lady does too. She doesn't understand, but she believes you.

Im wondering why its so up and down with the dentist.
since you ask...
This has solely to do with the fact that the dentist office I go to has seen the dentists come and go.

***trigger warning on dentistry***
It started out more or less OK (as far as going to the dentist is ever OK, LOL) , then it got taken over by a South-African (I could tell by his use of language. More so than the fact he was black) who said I had "difficult teeth". LOL. He actually started to file one down in order to get to something else.  :aaauuugh:
My next half-year appointment (could be more) he had been replaced by (sold the business to?) a German. Again going by his 'accent'. At some point with him I had broken a molar, which he couldn't distract, since it already had been broken. He had to send me off to a dental surgeon.
This molar had been a sore spot for many years (I think from the time of my original dentist, so a decade or so), and an ever present sort of 'whining' pain in my jaw. Originally a pain that send me through the roof. They did investigate thoroughly at the time. X-rays and all that. Couldn't find a thing. After a week or  so it became just a "pain in the background".

I remember well when after the dental surgeon pulled it, within half a day or so I realized: "Wow! Wonderful! The background pain is gone! Hallelujah!" And I could actually even feel that through the pain of having the molar pulled.  :cheer:

Perhaps it's best to let this recovery journal close and open a new one for the next phase of your recovery.
Thanks for the suggestion, it's in way appealing, but all this is part of my history too, and as my signature says: "To pursue the path of healing we need to remember what we have endured. Restoring ones sense of self means restoring memory, recognizing what happened. Without memory there is no healing." so I politely, though decisively and respectfully decline, dear friend.

Thanks again, being called a friend is the most gentle thing I've heard in all of this.  :umbrella:

Dutch I want to thank you for your time and effort with regard to OOTS.  You have given much of yourself and I and others do appreciate it. The fact that your moderation of the swearing issue did not go well does not erase all that you have contributed.  Stepping down as Moderator was called for but we are all human and most members understand and accept that.  I hope you do decide to remain and that you can leave this matter behind.

Now that you and others have had an opportunity to air some feelings and share some thoughts I would again ask that you and everyone please move on.


edit: I guess I could also say "Roger" or "confirmed" or "message received" or whatever in that vain.
I'm sorry for feeling the need to elaborate on that one word reply.

Had bad experiences with doctors
Me too. Especially in childhood.
We (as FOO) had a terrible dentist too. Who was found to be far-sighted, yet never got any glasses. No fun. My neighbors sued him, my parents didn't. I still have poor dentistry, as my miserly parents thought braces weren't necessary: "It will all grow right in the end." Ehrmm...  No its hasn't.

Since then I have found better GP's (as with the example I've given), with dentists it has been "one up, one down".
If you can, 'shop' for GP's. Which can be near to impossible, I know all too well from personal experience.
And stay with one you trust and can confide in, even if it does take "a mile" to get to them.

I hope your skin condition will get the proper care it can. In any case: your skin says nothing about your inside! At the very least it does not determine your inside.


Does any one have any suggestion of how to get over my doctor fear?
I'm not sure and this may be a long shot, but doctors/GP's have most probably seen psoriasis and SI-scars more than you (or I) can imagine. With a bit of luck, (s)he'll be reassuringly calm about it all.

Perhaps a personal story of mine might help (too?): almost to the day two years ago I phoned the emergency-GP-hotline to make sure I would go to my GP for my alcoholism. The following monday I went, shamed as a I was, and told him my story. I was so anxious to get it fixed instantly, yet he said: "Mr. Uncle, by the sound of it you have been in this state for many years. I understand you want to get it fixed today or tomorrow, but likely it will take a while." Not the message I wanted to hear, but it rang true even then. And his reassuringly, nonjudgemental calmness helped.
I assume he has seen many alcoholics/addicts prior to me. He knows 'the deal'.
Look where I am two years later: hanging out on a board for cPTSD. And getting better!


Thanks for the encouragement.

It's not open season on anyone, no one's mad, we are all just damaged people who've evidently suffered some sort of mass trigger :P
I hope you're right, but it wouldn't be the first time I would be the target of a deliberate and orchestrated witch hunt by a collective. Very secretively of course. But I have ironclad proof. That definitely IS a massive trigger for me. And it most definitely played a role in my actions.

I hope I'll fare better this time, but I'm not holding my breath.

When the guidelines are not enforced, this is an unsafe place.

I'm very glad that you stepped down as moderator
That's at least two things we agree on.

The fact you don't see me considering doesn't mean I don't.

As far as the communication is concerned, I've already made my view on that matter clear. And it's clear I hold a minority position on it. I can live with that.

To err on the side of caution I have disabled all PM's (except the Administrator's) so that all commination will be out in the open. I've never been fond of PM's anyway, so it's no loss.

My words are chosen carefully and posted publicly, and will continue to be. I am not here for drama but wellness. And yeah, I am going to comment on my observations from time to time, especially if I perceive an injustice. And apparently my words ruffle feathers, or, dare I say, can be triggering. I was very careful to not lay blame but instead question the guidelines and their application. I didn't even know which mod had contacted the members. But this is the internet and any words here words can be a trigger to anyone, regardless of what the words are... Which was my entire point.
I've chosen my words carefully as well. Apart from the "questioning the guidelines" I could have typed what you posted. I was upholding the guidelines.
I am sorry if you think I bear you ill will or wanted something to happen to you. I certainly did not. I am truly sorry that my words have hurt you.
I do not think you bear me ill-will.

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