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We are paying attention, we are committed to recovery, we are on the right path.

beautifully put.  indeed

How To Deal With Emotional Manipulators - What a terrific list! so succinct but there is so much to it. Thank you for posting this DU. Such a helpful reminder.

I do need reminders when meeting new people & trying to build healthy relationships from scratch.

For me #4 is key. One of my major buttons is passive aggression. It so often seems like someone isn't doing anything at all & I'm just being unreasonable, over-reacting or jumping to conclusions. That's the tricky thing for me about PA, it's invisible!

For sure the best thing is to 'not react', and boy can that be tricky, to not confront, engage or negotiate. I find when I feel the strong compulsion to do those things it really helps to use distraction techniques so that my mind can stop fixating on the compulsion. Some guided meditations on detaching from thoughts can be helpful too. 

Well, I started a friendship group. I'm very isolated & friendless, so decided to do something about that! After lots of trial & error with trying to meet new people I felt strong enough to try starting my own group.

I am amazed that I've met some nice people. Harmless, pleasant people, I can just enjoy their company for a meal. And others who I really, really like & feel quite compatible with. I just can't wait to see them again!

So that's nice. What I'm struggling with is I feel I don't have much information to go on. Like, people have turned up more than once so I assume they like me well enough or at least like the group well enough. And some people I've reached out to & let them know I like them, they have let me know they are interested in pursuing a friendship with me (I think) & the feeling is mutual.

Thing is, I'm so excited and want to see them, am bursting with enthusiasm! But it feels one-sided. I don't want to be needy & demanding, scare people off. I'd love some more interest, reassurance, expressions of enthusiasm from the group members. It is organised online so there is plenty of room online to say things to each other, just little things like, 'Had a great time' and so on. There is a little of that but I usually need to initiate (I guess that's my job given that I run the group!). Trouble is I'm in another friendship group & there is all this online chatter about how awesome a time people have, it's very warm & enthusiastic. Maybe I see that as perfect & ideal & my group as inferior?

I'm trying to be reasonable rather than panicking into the conclusion that "nobody likes me!" & feel plagued with shame. I know there are good reasons for how my group is going so far...
- people are busy with employment, family, social plans & other friends; you can't be everyone's top priority
- it's a very small group that is quite new
- healthy friendships can take time to build trust & rapport, some people may need to meet me & the group a few times before they can relax
- not all personalities are bursting with enthusiasm that they express readily (like me!! I'm so anxious, even hyper-vigilant, but the upside to being a somewhat nervous personality is that if I like something I'm bursting with enthusiasm & encouragement & let people know!); some people are calm & steady and don't need to express how much they're  enjoying something
- it takes time, healthy friendships take time, repetition, lots of common interests to develop.

the above list is all guesswork!!! (as I'm most expereinced in dysfunctional/abusive relationships)

I would love to hear if anyone is managing to have a healthy friendship, working on these kinds of goals or figured out some realistic expectations about healthy friendships. 

But wow am I vulnerable around that person I think I've fallen for.  I just don't seem to have my adult judgment - that neediness crowds out anything else.

Yes, such an important point! I find this vulnerability makes me so open to disappointment & frustration, or worse, exploitation & manipulation.

on grieving your friend 
I relate, it's sad.

on the other hand, as my recovery progresses I do wonder if in time I'll feel ok & have supportive relationships. Sometimes (even just for a moment) I'm amazed at how contented & relaxed I can feel with new friends. I love the point you make about faithful and reliable friends. Yes the excitement isn't there but my hunch is that pleasant and even harmless company is something I'm very inexperienced in (it's so alien) but is an important part of my quality of life. Like, I don't love love porridge but it's good for me.

thanks for your thoughts steadybowl, I found it so helpful to read. wishing you well with your friendship too 

Two thing helped when I went through intense social anxiety with cPTSD:

One was preparing for topics that were safe such as gardening, weather, news items that were non controversial, and things of interest to the other person if I knew their interests. For example if a friend is an avid fiction reader, even though I'm not, I'd check the best seller list for some titles to ask what she's heard about them. She'd be happy to relate and the conversation flowed as I showed interest in what she had to say. I'd get lost in listening. That brings me to #2:

Listening became my mode of operation. It still is mostly. Listening with real interest worked really well for me and if there is a pause either ask a thoughtful question or else something that prompts them to continue such as 'wow, tell me more' or some such phrase.

awesome  thanks for sharing Butterfly. I totally agree safe topics are key & preparation is well worth it. I think your example is genius! I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one who does prep to spend time with new people out of the 'cPTSD world'. I find it really helpful to get out there & do that.

I'm a self-sacrificing, dysfunctional 'fawner' so listening to people is something I have to be careful of, I'm so over-developed & good at listening that I used to do it as a job (true, I got paid!) and have gotten myself into many an emotionally abusive romantic or platonic relationship. So my strategy for social anxiety is to have something light & positive to talk about myself when people ask me questions like, "what have you been up to?". I see movies (that I genuinely enjoy) and try to develop my hobbies so then I have some interesting answers. I read somewhere that when people want to get to know you they are genuinely interested in your like & dislikes & your opinions because that's what makes you uniquely you! that was so refreshing to me when I read it because previously I thought it was selfish & rude to express my likes & dislikes felt obliged to only focus on other people's needs. We live & learn!

Danaus, wow that's great you had a fun time Well done. Maybe you underestimated yourself! Hope things continue to go well with the people you spent time with. I'd be interested to hear how things progress.

This person may have honed in on your nature and is taking advantage.

good point, thanks for the reminder Butterfly. Rings true. I forget that just because I've gone NC with my Nmum doesn't mean I won't meet another N's while I'm trying to make new friends.

Thanks again DU for your support & advice. The SHORT version! Indeed.

thank you Dutch Uncle I really appreciate your support  . And sensible advice. Pretty much everything you've replied resonates with me very strongly, I almost jumped when I read 'expect a vitriolic reply'.

I did email her. Silent for a bit. Then I've received a vitriolic reply. It was condescending & demanding, disagreeing with each part of the explanation I gave her & arguing all the different ways why my decision does not work for her & how she wants to spend her time. (How can you disagree with someone's explanation why they don't want to pursue a friendship with you?  ) Then it started to get combative & insulting towards me, it was so horrid I just shook my head & deleted it, I knew, "I'm not even going to read this, if I do I know it will trigger me & keep me up all night ruminating on it." I'm glad I didn't read it. I'll block her from my email.

My only regret is I put it in writing by emailing her so she could circulate it to mutual acquaintances if she wishes. Hopefully she's expressed her rant out at me, that'll be enough and as you say she'll find someone else. I wish I'd written it as brief as you suggested - I think that is very wise - but I expanded on the explanation I'd already given her, I may have even been apologetic & vulnerable, like 'I have my weaknesses, no-one's perfect & this is no-one's fault' to be polite. I'll chalk it up to a experience. If this situation comes up again in my search for friendships, at least I'll know how to handle it & to be very brief. Someone gave me a suggestions too, just to skip any explanation and repeat until it sinks in that 'sorry, this isn't going anywhere'.

I do feel a bit  for responding to her request for further explanation, the part of her reply I read indicated she'd clearly understood my original explanation, I'm now guessing keeping the interaction going (maybe even n-supply) albeit by email may have been her motive rather than being hurt, I don't think her upset was about losing me but being told no. One thing is for sure, she certainly expressed nil concern for my needs & nil thanks for all my effort during our 3 meetings (it was a lot of work!!). nothing about me at all actually except some negative criticism about my skills & character. hmm, that's telling. pretty much felt exactly like our meetings felt & I'm certain I don't need that!

thanks again DU, it's sad that other people find this situation hard too but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. it's gotta get better with practice. the good news is I have some other people in 'trial' (great concept) who I like, I'm seeing them this week so hopefully I'll put this behind me, compose myself & be able to relax & enjoy their company.

I made a new 'friend', that's probably too strong a word. We've seen each other 3 times. I feel trampled, disrespected and walked all over by her, it's not good. I get profoundly disturbed, dissociated in her company and it triggered EF's that lasted days.

It didn't start well but instead of ending the association after the first meeting, I didn't listen to my instincts, went into fawn response, got real stressed & agreed to see her twice more. I was bending over backwards for her, waiting for her to be 40 minutes late, organising my entire weekend plans around her wishes & prioritising seeing her exactly when and where she wanted. I know, sounds crazy. Classic fawn response. On our last meeting I realised what was happening - we have nothing in common, she insulted me to my face (wow that helped clear things up quickly), I realised that of all the hours I'd spent listening to her probs she's never asked "How are you Flutterbye?" or asked me anything about what I'm doing or how my life is going. (This sounds absurd now I'm writing w the benefit of hindsight).

So I realised I didn't want to see her again. She wanted to see me 1-2 times/week. I felt no ill-feeling towards her, no grudges & wish her well, I just didn't want to pursue the friendship. I let her know that as politely as I could. I'm very isolated & friendless so almost entirely inexperienced at ending friendships but I thought I did quite a good job. I was very surprised by what happened. She replied she was shocked, upset and requested I call her (we've never spoken on the phone) to explain what's wrong. I thought I'd already explained that politely & don't have anything to add.

I'm not going to call but feel obliged to reply by email. I really don't know what to say, I tried to end the friendship gracefully & politely but it doesn't seem like she's accepted it. I don't want to be cruel by ignoring her request or by replying tactlessly. I also don't want to leave it unresolved & left open to us spending further time together. May sound mean-spirited, cynical or warped but I just feel her part in the friendship was so 'me me me' and insincere, no regard for my needs.. I don't know how serious her upset can really be? the time we spent together reminded me so strongly of being with my narcissistic mother I want to put it behind me & move on but feel guilty.

Has anyone had to end a friendship gracefully? any kind word or suggestions would be most welcome 

Managing the fear and anxiety from those triggers is becoming exhausting.  Especially since it's coming from multiple sources.  I'm having enough trouble managing my day-to-day life, and the triggers that just naturally come up...

oh tesscaline!  so relate, been going thru the same stuff for the same reasons. so sorry you're going thru this. interpersonal relations are so intense & trigger for me, whenever I venture out trying to make new friends there is a lot of EF's and anxiety to manage. Online environments are good because it offers me at least a place to start meeting 3d friends but the added pressure of all the online social world on top of 3d social life can be immense.

things w my difficult person in my friendship group came to a head for me too. It was playing on my mind so much, the impulse to go nc in order to relieve my anxiety, dread and EF's was so strong it was keeping me up until 5am. I tried to take a break from it to get some objectivity but the anxiety didn't abate. It reached the point I had to do something. I'm choosing nc.

I agree w DU, it's progress..tho this was a tough situation you're instincts were right, this person is not safe & not friendship material, I've been making similar (albeit very painful) learnings & progress in my recovery and have found learning to trust my instincts a very important skill.

hope you feel better soon & get to spend some time with the supportive people you actually like.

totally relate, thanks to all on the thread for sharing, I felt so grounded reading it - yes, feeling like an abandoned baby for hours without end is so intense, very difficult to distract my attention onto anything else to relieve that urgent, desperate longing to be comforted & reassured.

the most recent new friend I fell in love with was a very young gay man, I'm heterosexual and 15+ years older. I felt so alive & like I couldn't be without him. Fortunately he was busy (with a normal life of healthy friendships his own age!!) so we weren't able to spend much 1:1 time together and the friendship didn't develop. That was heart-wrenching. I've been trying to build some healthy friendships (as I'm very isolated & have none currently) and each new person I meet it's different; some pleasant, some frightening, some this, some that. But not that intense connection that I'm always craving when I meet new people, that falling in love feeling.

I don't know if you guys feel this.. the other side of the coin for me is feeling nothing around people or by myself. It's such a relief to end that in-love obsessive longing but it's kinda my all-or-nothing way of relating to people & attachment to people. Most other interactions can feel similar to nothing.. I don't know if that's relatively healthy or more like depression and numbness.

As for diagnosis, I think it's rather stigmatizing, especially the BP label. I don't know about you but where I am, NYC, it gets thrown around often to explain unpleasant or difficult behaviors in others, especially women. I try to refrain from such labels and encourage the people I work with to avoid labeling also. It's about specific behaviors, reactions and feelings and not the whole person. My opinion is that just about everyone has some disordered part that fits the diagnostic criteria for cluster B. And definitely when I am triggered I can present such behaviors and actions.

yes, I agree. I find the entire dsmv absurd & unhelpful. I think it's much more important to look at a whole person and to acknowledge that so much of so-called 'mh symptoms' is trauma, caused by chronic trauma during one's developmental years. I love Daniel Mackler's writings on that topic, found it tremendously helpful. Also love how he always puts the child first, sides with the child.

I didn't have kids because I didn't want to do what my mother did to me. I'm at flat-out capacity caring for myself & a pet. As Dutch says, it's such a far-reaching decision. I've never thought being abused & neglected as a child gave me any right as an adult to use a child to heal my wounds because that's exactly the entitlement that drove my narcissistic mother's remorseless abuse & neglect of me, utterly exploitative.  And the damage is so extensive I can barely function is so many areas of life today. On the deep mysteries of exploitation of children by their parents, I found both Alice Miller & Daniel Mackler's writings so enlightening & compassionate. It may be of interest to you & others on the thread. wishing you well 

Hi tescliane
I'm glad you've found a supportive support group & friendships from that  . That was my goal but participating in support groups only stressed & triggered me so I moved on to social groups. I ended up starting my own friendship group eventually, now am faced with the challenge of what to do with people I really don't feel comfy with & simply don't like. They want to keep participating but I assumed they wouldn't as we're clearly not compatible. As a chronic 'fawner' I feel walked all over by their (to me ) outrageous discourtesies & lack of respect.. it's all way too much like my childhood abusers, co-dependent abuse. But if I ask them to leave, I'll look petty. And then the nice, supportive people I have in the group can only really see me as petty?

It's a tough one. In my experience this kind of 1:1 conflict only gets worse, you can't talk it better, so I've always gone nc to save my sanity! someone who triggers me like this, I get very dissociated & the EF's can last for days or even week if I've spent a while 1:1 with them. At this point in my recovery I don't want to do that anymore as it feels cruel rather than progress.

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to make new friends or supports. (I'm very isolated but trying to do something about that by building my friendship group). So I'm very protective of that, I need all the support I can. But for you, if you're able to succeed in participating in support groups & even friendship outside group times from them, maybe your relational/social skills are way stronger than mine. Maybe you can afford to walk away & start afresh or maybe you can afford to stay in contact with this unsafe person amongst the group. Is it possible to avoid any alone 1:1 contact with them? do you have any allies in the group who share your concerns?

Be interested to hear how you go. good luck with it, I agree with Dutch Uncle, protecting yourself from poison is #1. Me I'm a nc girl but we all have to choose our own method.

thanks Jdog, appreciate your kind words and encouragement  . Hosting a small get together today so a good chance to put noticing the positives into practice.

Yes! agree extreme lateness often = passive aggression, my exbf used to do constantly. never fails to make me furious & then guilty.

I agree, nice intention. but have found intentions provide only temporary uplift, need to put them into action otherwise they are just academic & intellectualising. What does someone new have to offer? important question because I want to avoid repeating abuse dynamic of my past with new friends/people/dates where I never asked that & assumed I should bring everything to the table. Found I swang to the other extreme, expecting new people to be less damaged & higher functioning than me, to want to befriend, reassure, connect with, protect, mentor, parent, protect, keep company with... me. Found that is not possible. New people want to sleep with me. If they didn't want that, new people want to burden me with their problems without offering support in return. learning about give & take, is  complex & 2-way. If you met a new person, liked them & they said, 'don't ask me any questions, it's triggery," would you be able to continue with the relationship/friendship? only way to feel benefits of new intention is real life practice, see what new people are out there to meet me when I was finally ready to take the plunge minus self-sacrifice. I like people higher functioning & less damaged than me, I feel good in their company.. that's nice for me but is that on offer? it can't all be about me & my needs, that's just role reversal of the past (I was the one meeting all the other person's needs & getting none of my needs met), what do I have to offer them?

relate to social isolation as a result of perfectionism Boat. For me, eventually led to such loneliness I'm now trying to overcome it. my question changed from 'how to like people? to 'can anyone like me?'

that's great Jdog. thanks for sharing your real life examples. I am v lonely (friendless, family-less, significant other-less), decided to do something about that! I started a friendship group. the same stuff comes up for me, "I don't deserve to be treated like that". just because I've put the offer of friendship out there does not mean that magically all who respond will behave respectfully towards me. The perfectionist in me reacts, "this is so offensive, I can't even see the nice people who like me, I can only see the people who I feel disrespected & offended by". So I have to have some standards within myself about my self worth. What's courteous behaviour (e.g. how late can you arrive?) as opposed to rude behaviour? 15-20 mins late is ok. even 40 min is ok if you do what I'd do & say, "sorry I'm so late!" because that's genuinely what I'd say & mean it. and... Q. what perfectionistic expectations cut me off from the possibility of meeting people who like & respect me? A. expecting everyone to arrive on time (and if someone is very late, expect them to behave as perfectly as I do in the rare event that I am very late & apologise genuinely for being late). The perfectionist in me focuses only on those I feel were rude to me & not even remember the other people who I felt were friendly, kind & respectful towards me at the time.

I agree, it is not ok to be treated in ways that are not ok. when that red flag, "I do not deserve to be treated like that," comes up in my mind that is very helpful information I need to heed, don't pander to that person who offended me, don't fall into the trap of trying to win their acceptance because experience tells me that will never happen!  but also, I try not to let the perfectionist win & blind me to the other potential friends available, gotta try to see the people who indeed treated me how I deserve to be treated. why is it they seem more subtle, quieter & less significant? it's almost like it's easier to focus on the people who disrespected me than focus in the people who respected me because they might get to know the real me & reject me for real.