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Thank you soooooooooo much for this post.   A couple of things, yes, Elaine Aron said the same thing in her book that HSPs do not fare well being abused --more so-- than most children.    You said it well, it is an extra wallop.

You also bring up something that I have wondered about on OOTS members as a whole, which is the high IQ factor.   For the most part, this is an very smart group of people.   And, I am also aware, this is a group that has survived, and also went so far as to find a support group.   However, it still leaves me wondering what "contribution" (I cringe using that word) that the abuse had to the high IQ.    Yes, I had noticed you were quite intelligent, zazu ...so, it is not a "loss" as you say.   

I have met someone with synesthesia before in that saw music as color.   For you, Zazu, your experience of music is a qualitative difference ...sad ...happy ...soooo, Christmas carols are tear-jerkers for you?  I'm sighing here.   And, does that mean when you go to funerals, and hear the organ music, it is happy, joy-evoking for you??   This is a major bummer.   So, high school dances your peers are laughing having good time to the music, and it is intensely sad music for you.   Correct?   And, then you are supposed to join in ....not fun.

As to HSP, I don't know ...that is part of why I was asking.   It would take a researcher, etc. though to really answer your question.   I just had an impression of a high % of HSP here.   And, yes, the CPTSD symptoms and HSP do have similarities in some aspects.   I'm sure you know, but HSP is a biologically different nervous system according to Aron.

I'm delighted you are taking such good care of your HSP children!!!   Wow.   And, your other son being intuitive.   Hey, Zazu ...sounds like you are doing a great job of being a mother!   Way to Go!!!

Hi Rain,

Sorry it's taken so long to respond (I've been away for Thanksgiving holiday)....
I didn't mean to mislead in my previous post. I don't have synesthesia related to music - that's just an example of how my "wiring" is a bit wonky. I kind of wish I did - it would be cool to see shapes and colors with sounds! No, I have the gustatory-lexical type (tasting words), some word-color and one type that's rather hard to fit in one category -  the way I experience memory is a bit like a filing cabinet, but instead of being labeled alphabetically or numerically, like a real life filing system, the memories are categorized by color, taste and feeling. If  I need to retrieve a memory, I'll remember the color, taste and especially the feeling that went with a certain date and be able to pull it out and re-live the memory.

It happens with even small things, like, say, remembering what's on a particular page of a book. This amazes my husband, who can never remember where a particular phrase is located. He has to mark and highlight things. I just associate each passage in a book with a particular feeling/color/taste which is associated with a page number, and bang, there it is. It seems so simple, but he really can't do it.

That probably sounds bizarre, but I only realized it was strange when other people said they did not experience things in the same way and were confused when I tried to explain. The psychologist, on the other hand, jumped up and down with excitement when I happened to mention this in passing (I really didn't think it was important) because he had been stymied as to why I was not improving after two years of treatment. He suspected that the synesthesia resulted from abnormal connections between my temporal lobe and limbic system. If this was the case, then some of my mental health issues weren't so much emotional as strictly neurological.

It really helped, knowing that.

And I do hope I'm dealing with my HSP kids appropriately. I make sure they get enough space and quiet when they need it. The older one feels left out of ordinary teenage life by being an introvert, as if he's doing it "wrong". You know, the stereotype of teens and their wild parties, which sounds like a total nightmare to him. I tell him that it's perfectly okay if books, art and quiet conversation is his version of fun. If it's fun for you, it's fun for you, no matter what the stereotypes say.

We have a book called "the introvert advantage" which is quite good.

Yes, I'm one, too. My psychologist years back thought that this contributed to my mental health issues as well. As in, I was already sensitive by nature, so mistreatment carried an extra wallop.

I'm also "non-neurotypical" as they say. Not on the autism spectrum, but my brain is probably wired rather differently than most folks, according to the same shrink. I have synesthesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
and there are other differences, for example a piece of music that most people would consider as happy and upbeat will trigger intensely sad feelings (unrelated to PTSD triggers or suchlike) I also have an abnormally high IQ (not bragging here - it hasn't done me any good!) which is significant in that it differs drastically from the rest of my FOO, and these things are usually inherited. The psychologist thought this might be due to having been born to an older mother.
I've never known for sure if all these things were interelated with being an HSP, but it seems like it could be.

I have two highly sensitive children, so I try to stay extra-attuned to their needs. It can be a fine line to walk. My other son is not an HSP, he's as resilient as anything, bless him. If anything, he's the most intuitive of all of us - I think it's because he's not distracted by so much internal data bombarding him. He can stay outwardly focused most of the time.

Hi everyone. Thanks so much for the advice and information. There is a lot of food for thought here.

Apparently, after years of trying to have some communication with my IC, she was raring to talk as soon as a method became available (which was simply using my non-dominant hand to write down her answers, per Kizzie's advice!). I suppose I hadn't been able to hear or perceive her in a clear enough way before that? At least in a way that was distinct from my adult self.  Surely she'd made appearances before - why else would I have random urges to listen to 70's disco music while reading comic books? But it's easy to ascribe these things to the "niche interests" of an adult, rather than the IC needing an outlet.

I honestly don't know if one is meant to try to "change" one's inner child -  though as KeepFighting said, the cognitive processes are quite different, so I don't even know if it could be done, anyway. But after re-feeling these old emotions, I understand that the IC's beliefs are in many ways still functioning to defeat any sense of motivation. It's a particular problem for me, and IIRC, pretty common with PTSD, C-PTSD and depression - no motivation, because what's the point in trying? In so many ways, this lack of motivation has kept me stuck in unhappy situations for years.

It was surprising to find that 7-year-old self had this sense of pointlessness and hopelssness wrapped up with physical appearance. As if, due to this uncontrollable circumstance, all doors were closed forever. As if there were no life beyond the way one looks to others.

I keep thinking, if only someone had said, "well, zazu, you could be a doctor, scientist, astronaut or what have you. It doesn't matter if you're pretty, then" but of course, no one did. (The very idea of any of my FOO saying such a thing is actually laughable  )  But it is probably the thing that would have changed my outlook on life. As it was, it was a bit like being born into a strict class system or caste where my fate was set from the beginning.

Even if I can't change my IC's thinking, I do wonder if there's a way I can reassure her that there are lots of other ways to live a satisfying life that are unrelated to looks. Then perhaps the tremendous internal resistance I feel might let go a bit. I will continue to give her supportive messages, at any rate.

It feels as if there is more about this unit of time, age 7, that needs more exploring. That was the year my beautiful sister got married and moved away, that my family as I knew it began to show obvious signs of cracking apart (it was always shaky, but when sister left home, NM no longer bothered to hide her rages and disdain for the rest of us.) I had an absolutely dreadful teacher that year in school - she was cruel and physically abusive in ways that would likely get a teacher arrested these days (thank goodness for progress!) In short, it was a time when things were  in upheaval and there were few ways of feeling safe. At the same time, it seems to be the very beginning of identifying with my peers/seeing some kind of life outside my family. I was beginning to pick things up from the outside environment that were not influenced by FOO (like the aformentioned disco music and comic books) So there is a little sense of pulling away to become a seperate person...

I'll keep working on it.
Thanks for the advice and support, everyone.

Sandals - 
That's terrible, the way you were treated, and you never deserved one moment of that. You deserved so much better. You deserved to live in a loving home.

It might be hard to come to terms with the reality of physical abuse at first, especially if you were told it wasn't "really" abuse, or that "all families are this way". But it will become easier in time. It sounds as if our moms were cut from the same cloth, so I've been were you are now. It gets better.

One of the most helpful things anyone ever said to me on this subject was "it is the abused person who gets to decide what was abuse - not the abuser." 

I wish you well on your journey through this.

Hi all, I hope you don't mind if I ask for some opinions/advice on IC work.
This thread deals with feelings about physical appearance. Hopefully, this won't be triggering to anyone, but this can be a sensitive issue so I just want to give a forewarning on the subject matter.

By following the advice in another thread, I was able to finally begin a dialogue with my inner child. When she finally began to talk and answer questions, I was very surprised and troubled at what came forth. She has some deeply held beliefs that my adult self does not share, in fact, I've vehemently disagreed with these ideas for years. Yet, I can tell my IC is very attached to them.

When my IC first talked back to me (this version of the IC was about 7 years old) I was shocked to discover that most of her concerns were about not being pretty. I asked questions like "what do you like to do?" "What makes you happy?" "what do you want to do in life?" and all the answers centered around not being able to do much of anything, because she wasn't pretty enough. Not even pretty enough to be loved. Almost every dream was destined to remain unfulfilled, because of this curse of being unattractive.

Some backstory here - my older GC sister was "the pretty one" and I was the ugly sister, much like a fairy tale. (and you know in fairy tales, the ugliness of the "ugly" sister was a symbol of her bad nature, too). I don't recall how often people used that term to describe me, but there was a lot of tsk-tsking about the misfortune of my looks and unfavorable comparisons with my (admittedly) beautiful sister, at least within the family. It doesn't help that my brother also is harshly critical any woman who doesn't meet his very specific standard of beauty. My Body Dysmorphic Disorder began in those days, probably.

The issue of appearance is tough for most women, as we are so often judged on our looks, even objectified because of them. When I reached my teens and began to attract male attention, my family role just made this more confusing. I had some really bad relationships in those days!

Eventually, this lead to studying the subject in depth, and I came to some hard-won conclusions about beauty, attraction and love. (More or less, that it's what's inside that counts). I felt there were a lot of misconceptions out there, and my proudest achievement has been my work online with people who felt unable to find love or even date, usually because of their looks. Having people who once thought they were too ugly to be loved write to say that now they are happily married is amazing. I spent years dedicated to that, with a lot of success.

So you can imagine what a shock it was to find my 7 year-old self still had these beliefs that my adult self had debunked years ago. And is quite stubborn about them, too, despite how defeatist they are, despite how false I now know them to be. The memories of how it felt back then came flooding back, in painful detail. Clearly all the years spent educating myself and helping others with the very same issue did not repair this damage, and I can tell...feel...there are lasting scars on the psyche. But I don't know what do to help.

Does anyone have an idea of what to do next?

[no]

Crazy swirl of dreams the last few days. The psychopath inner-critic keeps making appearances. He looks different every time, but he's still a thug. In some dreams, he stalks me but doesn't know that *I* know he's there. I try to fake him out. He seems curiously dumb, for someone with so much power to frighten.

Interesting, that. It could be that "his" programming was installed so long ago that he's out of date, not up with the times. Perhaps he's not intelligent or self-aware in his own right. Maybe he's just a tape in a subconscious tape-player, playing the same old worn-out tape. Maybe  it's just because the contents of the tape had so much power to terrorize that I couldn't see it.
Maybe, with luck, that's the case.

Also, I keep dreaming that I'm moving, moving out of houses and buildings from my past, or collecting my belongings from different places, but without a clear idea of where I'm moving to. I only know that I'm moving. And there are also anxiety dreams which make me question what I'm truly afraid of and why.

Been using theta wave binaural beat music for relaxation, which has been helpful. I've been able to combine it with positive imagery and affirmations lately, which used to be super difficult for me (my imagination would turn on me, rather horribly). It's much easier now, I can get through a whole hour's meditation without my thoughts turning grim. That's nice. It gives my poor brain a break. Today I tried one of the gamma wave meditations, which was so awesome I started to worry the things were addictive...

At any rate, I feel that I'm changing from all this work and study on C-PTSD, but what I'm changing into is a mystery. It's a bit unnerving because it's unknown territory. I've always wanted to change - my life, at its very best, was always just a matter of coping from one moment to the next - but I've never put much thought into what a real change would feel like. Haven't been able to, really. It's scary, yes, but if I ask myself if I want things to continue the way they have been the last few years, then the answer is a big, fat no.

Recently I was reading quotes from "healing the shame that binds you" by John Bradshaw, about toxic shame, and how the toxic shame creates a false self that's "more than human" or "less than human". It's pretty clear that I've got the type that's less than human (thanks to scapegoating). But that means I also have a real self (I suppose, the one I was trying to establish in the OP) that is simply human. Just human! Not less than. Just a simple, ordinary human! Can you imagine!

Lately I get the feeling that this ordinary human self is tired of being stuffed in the closet and wants to make an appearance. Maybe the ordinary human self wants to tell the sub-human self to take a hike, because it has held the floor way too long.

It probably doesn't seem like a big dream to most people, but I think being ordinary would feel wonderful. 

Hmmm...very interesting ideas, Rain. The inner critic does have a form...even though I'd managed to shut it up (as you've mentioned doing yourself on another thread) it does still have a form, and the feelings it creates. I'd imagined it as looking like different things (like when I'd be meditating and it would show up univited to throw darts at me.  ) but seeing it in a dream is truly a first.

Of course you can borrow the dream - if it helps, more power to you! 

There is a lot more to this recent rash of strange dreams, which will take time to process, but clearly reading through this forum has caused an avalanche of ideas.

Good for you, Kizzie! It's great you're having those epiphanies and I bet your inner child will be happy with the crayons.   

Thanks for the advice, Rain.  I did try to approach it sideways today (yes, it's too much to jump into headlong, that's for sure). It helped a bit, or at least it made the flashbacks different, in some way.

I ended up remembering something I'd forgotten for more than 30 years. I'd often had the sense that the uneasy feelings did not start on the day of the first *obviously* traumatic event (a death in the family), but had actually begun prior to that day. So rather than trying to examine the period in which I knew terrible things had happened, I tried to look at the time before, to see what was going on. I have a freakishly long and detailed memory, so this would not usually be a problem.

It came to me with a shock that I could not remember anything at all between October 31 and December 8 of that year, even though there was an important holiday in between, and holidays are especially easy for me to remember. No, it was a total blank.  But this I know for a fact - I did have a major life change (let's say it was akin to moving house) in between October 31 and December 8 of that year. That's indisputable. But I can't recall a thing about it. Not when it happened, not how, nothing. Not until the news of the death came - then the memories begin again. That's so odd as to be remarkable.

Well, I'm thinking, this life change took me out of a familiar comfort zone, where there had been other adults around who had been a buffer against trouble. Instead, I was now in an isolated environment with no one but my NPD Mother. The life I'd previously known was gone. I must have been in an extremely vulnerable state at that point.

When the disasters started rolling, they kept coming for a month, so it's hard to pin down any one thing that's causing the EFs. But I suspect my (perhaps) already vulnerable state allowed it all to make a very deep impression.

Jeepers. I wish I could sort it out in my head just enough to know where to focus next, without retraumatizing myself!
 

[*warning, some of this may be triggering*]

I hope you've been able to cut that '"button wiring", Rain. It's sounds like you're well on your way. Hopefully one day I will be, too. It was a good idea to save that email to use as a checklist. 

That last post led me to refresh my reading on brainwashing, and I came across something that, while I had already known, it must have finally sunk in...

The successfully brainwashed person has had a "false self", a clone of their captor, or leader, basically implanted into them. This false self gains dominance, though does not completely destroy, the real self. The two are often in deep conflict. (*warning, some of this may be triggering*)

I'd written over on OOTF how I'd felt this way, as if one part of me agrees with NPDMom and the other part knows full well that she is incredibly destructive and agreeing with her is acting against my own best interests. Terrible guilt results from this - apparently not uncommon with victims of brainwashing. The successful brainwasher actually uses that guilt as part of the process, to channel it against everything the person believed before, to make them and all their previous associations "bad". Interestingly, once this begins to work, the leader or captor then relents and grants some leniency to the victim, some positve reinforcement to show them they are now "doing right".

I say "interestingly" above, because my mother never used the positve reinforcement step . She might cause slightly less suffering if things worked the way she wanted them to (skewed toward failing on our parts - it threatened her if we succeeded in much) but she would yell and scream and punish either way. These were classic double binds. But as far as rewarding us for compliance? No. The best she might do was, say, cook us a meal we disliked and force us to eat while telling us we should be grateful for all the work she'd done. This actually seemed more like another punishment than reward.(She could feel justified, though, because she had fed us - therefore she was the good guy in the whole miserable sitiation.)

And while NPDM says outright that she wants us (and everyone) to "think with her mind" and basically be clones, I know this can't be true - if I were her clone, I could have expected the exact same amount of trouble - maybe even worse. I just have to look at my brother as an example. He's complied with her to the best of his ability, has been as much of a clone as he is able, but it has not helped him a bit. She still treats him like dirt. The only benefit I can see that he gets from it is that she insults him differently than she would those who are noncompliant. What's more, she says these things all around town and beyond. She'll call one person after another to let loose with insults about my brother, even after he's done her huge favors. (Needless to say, she does this X10 with those who don't comply.)

No, there is no benefit I can see to complying, to being her clone. So there was an important difference from what one might see in traditional mind control or brainwashing, or even a typical PD family system. This might be the one, twisted little thing that seems to make my FOO different, harder to figure out than other PD FOOs seem to be. And consequently giving my mental health issues the extra warping they have, too.

The upshot of this is, what my mother seemed to want, (for everone but maybe two people in the whole world) is to cause suffering, to make them hurt. My last therapist told me that she was a sadist, and I'm sure he was right.

But even though this was not traditional brainwashing, I still seem to have developed this "false self". My husband points out that I've been programmed to hurt, that this is what she wanted, for me to hurt...like a constant source of power for her. Maybe, ultimately, my role wasn't to be a "clone" as she says, but to suffer. And maybe that's why I can't stop hurting, why it tears me apart so much - because this false self is still very much active, giving mother what she's trained it to do. Maybe this is why I don't have the "numbing" often described in C-PTSD. I've rarely been able to numb myself.  Each wound feels as if it were fresh all over again, every time. Because that's this false self's job.

This is an upsetting thought, but it's the nearest thing to an explanation to which I've come.

This is too long already, but I must note the strange dreams I've been having. After having read up on this and thought about this false self, I fell asleep and had a nightmare. I dreamed that a scary thug broke into my house and carved the words "truth equals death" inside the front door, so when I went to look out the door after he'd gone, that's what I saw. I woke up terrified. "Truth equals death" is a pretty scary thing to read, and it was meant to be threatening. I wondered if it was a warning to stop looking for the truth. But then I remembered that a door is a boundary in the most literal sense. And the thug in the nightmare seemed very nasty, a psychopath who barged right into my house and carved up the most basic boundary with a smirk.
My husband said it might have been a symbol for that false self, or the punitive superego trying to stop me from healing.

Maybe. I don't know. I'm going to let it percolate for a few days.

Get well soon, Schrodinger's Cat. 

Yes, it is okay to be exhausted, to rest, to listen to your body and give it what it needs. I know it might be contrary to the messages we were given growing up, but from a survival standpoint? It's basic good sense! 

Hi Ladybug,

It sounds as if you have a good grasp on what happened in your family and it's great that you don't blame yourself for your mother's actions. That can be a really tough for some people, so IMO you're already ahead.  It is sad (though probably necessary) that you can't have any relationship with her. It seems strange to grieve for a family member who's still alive. Yet it often ends up being something we have to do with the PPDs in our lives. 

Hi everyone. Thanks for your great replies and advice. 

The last couple of days have been difficult - more frigid weather and howling winds - so I just borrowed my son's ipad and huddled in the bedroom playing meditation videos on youtube. I went though all kinds - Tibetan monks chanting, singing bowls, chakra balancing, you name it. lol. It did bring some relief, but these EF's seem determined to tell me something...I ended up having some extremely vivid dreams related to the traumatic incidents. Plus some eerie synchronicities regarding the events keep cropping up.
It seems determined not to let me go so easily.

Rain, I think you are correct - it must be a body thing, not a head thing. I can think about it all day, for all the good it would do, but it seems there is far more at work here. I tell myself... yes, I felt threatened and helpless back then. I felt responsible (when I was definitely in no way responsible). My young cousins and I all saw firsthand how the adults let us down, and then shamed us for it. Ugh. None of that is very nice, but it's not all that hard to process. It was pretty straightforward. I was reading Pete Walker's advice on EFs, and how one should allow oneself to feel all the emotions, but really, I can't help but feel them - they overtake me against my will! That said, sometimes I have the sense that there is something I can't remember from that time, and that's why I'm so afraid. Talking briefly with my cousin about it, she has a similar sense of "creeping horror" about those memories. It's not entirely clear why this has affected us this particular way.

Yes, the feelings may very well be lodged in my physical body somewhere.   
Good advice about the snow, but unfortunately, we rarely have snow. My dreaded landscape is covered with pale dead grass and empty fields, a bleak moonscape that goes on and on. Sigh. But if we did have snow, I would certainly play in it. 

Schrodinger's Cat - good advice. Actually, I've already been doing much of that. You should see my bedroom! For the last year, I've been trying to work through my feelings using art, trying to give positive and hopeful messages to my unconscious mind and inner child through art so the walls are covered with colorful and cheerful (if somewhat odd) paintings. 

I came up with the idea to do that for a rather weird reason, actually. When we first moved in, I hung up some pictures that were attractive, but rather grim in subject matter. One day, I looked around and realized that my life had begun to mirror those pictures. It was uncanny. *shivers*  It became clear that I had to be careful what I put into my environment, because it was affecting me in unintended ways.  It really has been helpful to do all that painting and decorating.

And yes, I tell my kids that I lived through the eighties once, I don't want to have to do it again.

Alovelycreature - thanks for sharing your story. That sounds so terribly lonely. 
It's interesting you mention focusing on the here and now to try to calm the flashbacks. That's something that's helped. My here and now isn't always so great, but I find if I can focus on just one neutral (or pleasant, if available) element of the here and now, it can bring a certain sort of comfort.

I don't know if it's repressing feelings either, but since this is used in mindfulness meditation, which has been shown to be helpful for trauma victims, it can't be all bad. It's also great you're able to start trying to form new, positve memories with the triggering songs.

Kizzie, it does sound like one of SAD lightboxes might help you. You really may be suffering a lack of light. I know doctors don't really consider a diagnosis of SAD if one has a diagnosis of  depression, but that doesn't mean it can't affect us, IMO. In my case it's not "depressed in winter" it's depressed year round and freak out  in winter. Light helps - a lot of light. (my electric bill is ridiculous, but I just can't do without the extra wattage.)

To the point of the EF's themselves - it does sound like there is something we need to know, or at least, need to feel about them in both our cases. No one wants to live with "creeping horror" longer than they have to.  Personally, I don't know how I could feel more than I do (any suggestions from the board?) but if you are able to do so and it's helping, more power to you. 

Hi all.

Emotional Flashbacks are a many and varied thing with me, but there is one particular, dreaded kind I am suffering lately, related to the weather.

The winter that I was 10 years old, a series of disturbing and traumatic events happened in my family. This period was marked by a certain kind of weather and atmosphere - frigid wind, a leaden gray sky, a bleached-out landscape that seemed hopelessly bleak. For 20 years (thankfully) I lived far away from the place where the events happened, and the weather and geography were quite different. Winter could still be depressing, but it wasn't always triggering, in and of itself.

Now, however, I'm living back in my childhood hometown, and the EF's that accompany cold, dark weather are unbearable. It feels....um...it's hard to describe how it feels. "Creeping horror" is a phrase that comes to mind. Vulnerable, unsafe, sensing a growing threat that I can't see, can't predict, can't prevent. Because the feelings come with the cold, it seems to get inside my bones the way cold does, and it's impossible to keep it away. It's nauseating.

The music that was popular at the time also affects me, though generally only if the weather is the same. I can listen to those old songs if the day is hot and sunny without too much effect, but if the weather is dark and cold, oh, boy...it's just awful. I know this because last year I thought I'd try some self-created "exposure therapy" by listening to that music during the dreaded time of year. Huge mistake!! This is obviously not something I can deal with through getting used to it. 

I've tried writing about it, too. Because the events took place over a series of weeks, it seemed important to try to get the whole story (or at least my experience of it) down in detail, how it all fit together. Another mistake. That caused an emotional crash that lasted a couple of months. I've even tried to make an art project about it, even before we moved back to this town.
Again, that ended in distress.

There were other kids, family members who experienced these events along with me, but it's no good talking to them for relief - they were just as traumatized as I was. Whenever it's come up, we just say "that winter" and shudder. It's not that the events are too horrible or complicated to talk about, just that something about it created such a deep disturbance in us that, for our peace of mind, we don't want to bring those feelings to the surface again.
Except when the weather is like this - then it can't be helped.

So I know what not to do.  Is there any advice on what might help?

  ...working in the fields? How long ago did they emigrate? All my extended family come from farming stock, and they hate working in the fields. ... Sorry, I do realize that people saying "Germans do this" or "that is typically German", they don't mean me personally, but it still makes me want to hide under the sofa until the shouting has stopped.

Sorry, Cat. I don't mean to paint Germans (or any nationality or enthnicity) with the same brush. I suppose that because many of us here in the U.S. retain only tenuous links with our ancestry, we tend to note traits that might link us with our "original" people.  For good or ill.

My relatives came at different times in the early to mid-20th century, but they all moved to rural farming communities where everyone else was just the same. Any old-fashioned beliefs were just reinforced. And because they were more isolated way out in the middle of nowhere, these qualities just became more intensified with time. So this probably says far more about rural German immigrant farming communities in the US than it does about modern Germans of any type.

One of my aunts came over much later, from a sophisticated city, and she wouldn't have been caught dead working in a field!