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Thank you both for your kindness. And I'm glad you got a laugh out of my friend's comments. Yes, it would be great to have that moment in a gilded frame!

I think I'm getting a bit stronger now. Reading this board is a little easier (the first few days I had panic symptoms) I'm coping a bit better the last two days. Have been able to do some errands without mentally "freezing" too much (physically freezing is a different matter - the weather's been cold here, haha)
Rain, you're right - no sprained ankles yet. I do tend to overlook what worked in favor of what was a roaring disaster. It's important to count the little things, too.

Just the other day, something that was interesting (to me, at least) came to mind. Even having thought so hard about how I'd describe myself and how others have described me, I'd managed to forget something that was amusing yet disconcerting at the time it happened, years ago.

I was in the grocery store and heard the song "Kothbiro" on the music system. This is an eerie and haunting tune to hear while shopping for produce, to be sure. But it triggered a memory, because the song was used in the film "The Constant Gardener". Well, I remembered at the time that film came out, our friends who'd seen it kept coming over to check on my husband and me, because the couple in the film had reminded them so much of us that they worried about our well-being. (Maybe this doesn't need a spoiler warning but: very bad things happen to this couple.) This concern was kind of amusing, because well, H and I are nothing like Ralph Fiennes and Rachel Weisz, and y'know...it was only a movie. After this happened several times, we decided to see the film. Our reaction after seeing it (aside from being distressed by the film itself) was to become very worried about each other! Neither of us could see ourselves in the characters, but we could definately see each other in the characters. We were nervous about the other leaving the house alone for a few days.

I mention all this because of how surprising it was that I'd forgotten it. This had been back in the time I'd been happiest and most distant from my FOO, but even then I didn't imagine I'd ever been as outspoken as the wife in the film. I can be secretive as she was, yes (who wouldn't be, with such a dysfunctional upbringing) but to be so assertive? Not likely. Discussing this with H, he disagrees. He says that no, I won't back away from my principles, and I know when someone is BSing me and won't accept it. The one exception to this is with my mother, who has a way of breaking me, clouding my mind until I can't think. I realized then that the character of the wife in the film is of the "truth teller" variety, which is what I was in my FOO. It's often the "truth teller" who becomes the scapegoat in a dysfunctional family.

Becoming the truth teller was never intentional - it just seemed to be my nature. The only way for my mother to deal with this, I suppose, was to terrify me into silence. But even then, the effects of this displayed in my behavior, showing everyone that something was wrong in our house. Mother tried very hard to recast me as "crazy" which I didn't resist too much, because I certainly felt crazy (as mentioned in my initial post) - it just took a long time to realize that this is because mother is crazy-making. It was a therapist who pointed this out the first time, actually, when I struggled to describe the series of double-binds that mother had used to "tie" our whole family.

H says that mother will work on me, intentionally pushing buttons until she finds the one that transforms me into a frightened 5-year old, unable to defend myself. The one who accepts mother as the ultimate authority. He says it's disturbing to watch this tranformation from principled adult woman to terrified child. And it's true - when she does this, I do forget who I've been all these years, that I'm an adult , that I've dealt with things that were truly harder, scarier and more important than mother ever was, in objective sense. Instead, I'm 5 years old all over again.

When this happens, it wrecks me for days (it's the emotional flashbacks, I guess) and I do wish there was a way to keep my adult self/adult mind when she attacks. The only way that works is if it has to do with my kids - I can keep my adult self together is if the kids need protection. Otherwise, I fall apart.

This is a digression, but I'm just reminded of something I'd heard from friends who'd left a religious cult years ago. They were counseling someone who was considering leaving the church but hadn't made the break yet. They said this fellow, who was wealthy and powerful by any other standard, who could have gone anywhere or done almost anything he'd wanted, stood in their hallway shaking and trembling, literally afraid to move. "What if the church finds out? What if they know I'm here?" he kept saying. He could have gone anywhere in the world, but couldn't move because his mind was in prison.

And it's worth noting that the church this man was so afraid of actually needed him, far more than he needed them. This church needed his money and power, the church was nothing without its members. But of course, the man couldn't see that, he could only feel the fear. That's what brainwashing does to a person.

Maybe that's not a digression, really, but something that needed to come out. Maybe what I'm dealing with - the fact that I lose my principled, adult self, is a part of the brainwashing mother worked on me. That it is a mental prison. And also that a bully (or a manipulator) needs a victim to succeed in what they do. Otherwise they would have to go around threatening inanimate objects and that wouldn't be very satisfying to them, would it? :p

There's something in this mess of words that might be important, but I'll have to wait for a bit to figure out what it is.

One day, I hope to leave my FOO in the mental ward of their choosing, too.

Cat, the way you're reframing your experiences is great. I hope it brings you peace at last.
Your story resonates with me, too.

Yes, the German work ethic! My grandparents (on both sides) were German immigrant farmers. Always we were lectured about working in the fields. Just last week, my brother said my family had no "character" because we weren't working in the fields. (My brother doesn't work in the fields either - he's in computers.  )

Yes, these old habits of child-rearing just keep going until we make the effort to change them.

I wanted to say thanks for your kind words, Rain and Cat. 

Writing this took more out of me than I realized and have been exhausted since then. It's surprising that writing things has this effect, as I've had plenty of therapy and have discussed these issues at length. Of course there are many more issues now, since having to be back in contact with my FOO.

Rain, I like the idea of flower seeds and dandelion seeds. I wish you success with it.
I have been trying so hard to do the same....trying to get positive messages into my unconscious mind, as it's the unconscious that so often sabotages me.  It seems to be an especially powerful force. Unfortunately it's filled with negative messages. Consciously, I was able to shut up the voice of the inner critic (with the help of an excellent therapist) but never anticipated then how the unconscious could screw things up. You know, the kind of situation where a person wants to be healthier so they go out for a jog...but instead sprain their ankle on the way out the door. That kind of thing happens to me way too often to be an accident!

Schrodinger's Cat, yes, my FOO is crazy-making to be sure, and does scapegoat other people very often. I usually played the SG role, but sometimes so did my oldest sibling. There were also scapegoat and golden child roles among the extended family - aunts and uncles and cousins, and their children. A huge pecking order in which the GC's families always stayed on top and the SGs could be picked on by any other member in descending order. The roles even applied to spouses and friends of the GCs and SGs.

One funny incident really stands out in my memory. A friend had come to visit and met one of my (higher on the pecking order) siblings. Because she was my friend, this sibling of course treated her as if she were of a lower order, like me. My friend was telling a story about her university days, and the sibling jumped into ask what she had studied. She told him. Sibling arrogantly says, "oh, well, it's stupid to study that - you'll never find a job. No one has a job doing that. Your degree is worthless." My friend blinked at him for a moment and said "um...I do have a job doing that. I'm a (job title) at (one of the most prestigious universities in the world). I work with (people sibling has only seen on television). Do you know them?" Then for good measure, she innocently pulled out her phone and said "oh, I have some great pictures of (celebrity scientists) right here from our last party..."

I could have died laughing (well, in private at least) at the look of confusion on my sibling's face!
She was my friend, she wasn't supposed to be better educated and employed than my sibling! I guess someone forgot to tell her that. 

That's a fond memory because it was so clear that the dynamic in the family wasn't my fault. My friend hadn't done anything to deserve being insulted, my sibling hadn't even the sense to find out what she did for a living before speaking up so nastily. After the visit, my friend was very honest about thinking my FOO were a bunch of buffoons. If only I could begin to think of them that way  - then maybe their words wouldn't hurt so much.

*warning - possible triggers*

Also, no one need feel obligated to read anything I write here - it's just me trying to sort out my feelings and hopefully gain some insight and strength. It's a little embarrassing to be babbling so much.

So, how does one start a recovery journal? I don't know whether to try to describe who I am/what I know about myself or describe the problems I'm trying to recover from, first.

On one hand, it would seem more positive to establish some sort of identity, a real one outside of the one other people have projected onto me. On the other, sometimes I feel like I'm more a collection of symptoms than person. The mental health issues influence so much of how I interact with the world. At any rate, I am going to try to limit descriptions and explantations that are too distressing or exhausting. I've tried writing to sort out my feelings before, but when it comes to describing the actions of my disordered FOO and my reactions, it's absolutely exhausting and leaves me unable to go on. I've often said that it takes 5 hours to describe what a personality-disordered person can do in 5 minutes. At this point in time, I'm simply not strong enough to do that.

So, I guess I'll start with facts I know for sure. I'm a woman in her early 40's. I have a husband and children whom I love very much. I adore animals and can't even bear to harm insects. I enjoy the arts, music and books. I read all the time for information and escape. I love brand new, creative things as well as the more classical. To know that people are out there making art, music, fashion, literature, any forms of creative expression - this brings me joy. But other things are important too, like compassion and caring and trying to make the world a better place. The hope people can find some common ground and be able lift each other up. That life should not have to be the "short, nasty and brutish" thing it so often is. In this, though, I wish I could do more. I'm interested in science and spirituality both, and believe the world and the universe are full of strange and wonderful things. My favorite color is blue-violet. My favorite food is veggie.

This is how I describe myself.

The people who knew me in all the years being away from my FOO, who never met my FOO, tended to describe me (when they did) as sweet though a bit sad, helpful, somewhat quirky, a caring, well-intentioned parent, the kind of "yoga mom" who supports public television and eats a lot of granola. :p It matches fairly well with how I see myself.

The people who knew me in the years after I moved out on my own but remained in the same town and in contact with my FOO, tended to describe me as strange, fragile, strong, child-like, promiscuous, needy, a loner, cold, withdrawn. Some people thought I was super-intelligent and some thought I was very stupid. In some ways this matches  how I saw myself and in others seems very off-base.

The people who knew me in the years I was growing up with my FOO, or who primarily know me through stories from my FOO, see me as extremely unstable, violent, a liar, a thief, irresponsble, cruel, neglectful, a person too "crazy and stupid" to ever work, take care of herself or others, too unstable and irresponsible to even be taught to cook or drive a car. Later in life, I was called a drunk and drug addict, as well as a "sadistic psychopath" by my mother.

In some ways I bought this description when I was growing up, but in others it confuses me to no end. I understood as a youngster that I was in mental distress, depressed, irritable, withdrawn and without self-confidence. I did believe that I was profoundly stupid. But things like liar and thief, cruel and violent...where did these things come from? They seem to be describing someone I've never met. And I know very well that I dislike alcohol and never take drugs besides NSAIDs. But my FOO proceeds as if these things they've said are an obvious truth, an intrinsic part of me. I know this because I hear it all the time. Even trying to pass on a simple piece of information to my FOO, this comes into play. The things I say are assumed to be lies or just wrong because of my subnormal intellect, and this affects how they react.

If I am this way, then how come in all the years I was away from my FOO, I never had this reputation, no one ever said this about me? How come no one outside of FOO and their circle accuses me of doing these things? Why also do they say things about my husband and children that I absolutely know not to be true? Even things that can be easily checked in the public records are denied or dismissed as lies or delusions. Evidence that can be seen with their own eyes (like the fact that I can cook and can drive a car, for instance) is repeatedly denied with an almost crazed fervor, as if their world would collapse if they had to accept these (seemingly small and pointless) truths.

I know how it sounds - the answer is easy. my FOO is dysfunctional and disturbed.  My husband knows it; my kids know it. Intellectually I know it, too. But in my heart I am troubled and confused, deeply distressed by the extreme difference in my own beliefs about myself and their beliefs about me. If they are the disturbed ones, then why do I feel so crazy? Why do I feel as if I'm being broken up into pieces and disappearing every time they confront me with "what I am"?

It's as if, in my heart of hearts, I can't really believe they would tell a lie, or that they could be wrong. Even though intellectually I know it, have seen it, confirmed it with others. I'm agonizingly caught between what I know and what I feel. The effects of this can be unbearable at times.

So, even in just trying to describe who I am to begin this journal, the projections and beliefs of others have to be addressed, to sort out who I think I am from what others say.

If we had our way, my FOC and I would break off all relations with my FOO forever, with no regret. Unfortunately, this isn't possible at this time. So the emotional pain is just being inflicted again and again, despite every attempt to avoid it. It's as if it's fresh each time - as if I never learned from experience, "toughened up" the way mother says children should toughen up. At my advanced age, obviously I'm not going to "toughen up". But maybe I can become stronger in other ways.

Rain, I'm sorry if I made you feel bad.    But it's okay to cry for each other and ourselves. I think...compassion is such a valuable human quality, there should have been more of it in our lives when we needed it.

Schrodinger's Cat - I can try your suggestions, see if it works for me. I do have a lot of fears similar to yours. Life would probably be more managable if I had a more rebellious nature, then it wouldn't be so upsetting to go against all those injunctions laid down in youth. But then again, I must have rebellion in me somewhere, because in many ways my character developed in an opposite way to my mother's and the rest of my FOO. There's a name for that, but I can't remember it at the moment. 

Still, there is much confusion, between my own sense of integrity and values and the toxic shame I'm carrying around. It's painful. The emotional flashbacks have been rough today. These are what I used to call "annihilation anxiety"  because it feels as if I'm shattering into a thousand pieces and disappearing due to the fear. But Pete Walker's description of emotional flashbacks is much more informative and helpful.  I may start a journal on this board to try to sort out these feelings.

Without realizing it, I did do something to distract myself from these feelings today that was a bit rebellious and could have been triggering, but managed it through logical thinking this time. I found myself watching ballet videos online...this hardly seems "rebellious" but mother used to mock me for wanting to be a dancer (my sister had ballet lessons but I was forbidden). I used to burn with humiliation when thinking about the things she'd said. But it couldn't really stop me from enjoying watching the dancers, even if I felt shame over my desire to be one.  I was probably lucky that I didn't have a ballet mother! While watching the films, I thought that these dancer have gone through intensive training to create an art form...my mother has no control over those dancers, mother should have no control over who can enjoy that art form, either. Logic doesn't always work, but it seemed to help this time. 

Thanks for your advice.

Hi Schrodinger's Cat -

No need to worry...I just meant that I may not have tried enough in the past to understand and gain some control over the behavior as it pertains to others. I ask my husband if he's upset so often that he becomes irritated, thus my worry becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is the part I haven't been able to get under control, and it does cause difficulties in our relationship.

Thanks for your advice.  You've done a good job of re-framing the issue to get a different perspective. That's an important part of managing these things, I think.

Anytime I got to feeling too good about anything my uPDM would swoop in and do something that would make me wish nothing good would ever happen to me again.

This is exactly what growing up was like for me, and the reason I have trouble self-soothing today. Thanks for putting it so succinctly, Bee, though I'm really sorry you were treated that way. 

My issue with self-soothing is that so often it wasn't allowed. Due to the nature of my mother's personality disorder, she becomes angry if other people are comfortable or happy. It's very threatening to her. Particulary for her scapegoats, if she discovered something was soothing or brought pleasure or happiness to them she would make that a target of intense shaming. I won't go into specifics lest it be triggering, but suffice it to say that most things on lists for self-care and self-soothing bring feelings of shame and humiliation when I try them. The only things I was really left with as a youngster were things mother ignored or that she couldn't control. This left very few healthy behaviors or activities. Some were outright unhealthy (like developing anorexia, for example.)

I still haven't thought of a way around this.

Wow, Schrodinger's cat, it sounds like that writer was living in my house! Yes, I do that and it does have real world consequences. Luckily my husband knows where it comes from, but it's still annoying to him. He says it makes him feel as if he's an angry person, like my mother (who has NPD, by the way). It causes further problems in that I've been unable to stop.

Well, hopefully I will be able to make a better effort now. Thanks for the link.

Fascinating techniques, here! Thanks so much for sharing.

I've been trying to do inner child work for ages - talking to her, writing, hypnosis, even using symbols and art to communicate in case she couldn't understand language, but the results have been limited. Tonight I tried writing with my non-dominant hand and guess what, there she was! 

I knew it really was my inner child because the first thing my non-dominant hand wrote was "I want everyone to shut up and leave me alone!!"  I was a cranky child who desperately wanted  more privacy, you see. But I had more or less forgotten that part of myself until it showed up on paper. With just a few questions, other things came out that were quite surprising, things long forgotten but I now remember were once deeply held beliefs. There's a lot there to explore.

Thanks again for the information.   

This made me laugh. Thank you, I really needed this.

I keep on sliding back into my old mindset, the one from way back when I was a child and a teen, when the least passive-aggressive or abusive thing they said to me was always so earth-shatteringly important. And it's not. Not anymore.

I'm glad you got a laugh out of that!

It's true, about that programming that tells us to give every bit of attention and concern to those difficult people in our lives. I grew up having to respond to my mother's displeasure about anything as it were an international political crisis. There was no sense of proportion. A spilled glass of water or a barking dog would be treated by my mother with the same amount of gravity as a death in the family or an actual war. Often times it would not be clear (still isn't) what would be triggering her displeasure - but we were all trained to respond as if it were the most important thing that had ever happened to us. It's one crisis after another, and since she has very little insight into her own mental states or sense of personal responsibility, in her mind it had to be someone else's responsibility to "fix" her emotional state

The effect on me as an adult was that my anxiety also had no sense of proportion. The terror that overtakes me can be triggered by insignificant as well as important things, all demanding an emergency response. Like,"must fix, must fix...oh no, I can't fix it because I don't know what's wrong! Must panic!" It took a long time to see the relationship between the two, but once I did, it was easy to see that it was learned, programmed response. Not that it's so easy to get rid of...

One of the hardest things to cope with has been finding out that some of these "crises" were actually engineered for control and manipulation purposes, to see us jump and scramble to fix the problem. That's one thing I'm still struggling to comprehend - I don't think it will be possible to overcome that part of the programming until I fully understand that someone could do that.

Thank you for your kind words, everyone.

I've looked at Pete Walker's website. I can't afford his book right now (I have very limited time and resources currently, I'm afraid) but the website makes it clear he really "gets it". He's the first psychologist I've ever known to mention the "freeze" response I (and so many others) struggle with.

And I do really hope there is someone beneath my symptoms...if only one day I can find out who that is!

I hope it's okay to resurrect this thread. It triggered some thoughts for me...

I also noticed the similarity between cult brainwashing and my FOO's behavior some time ago.  It's made me feel deep compassion for those who had been in an actual religious cult...well, actually I always had that compassion, even as a child, so perhaps unconsciously I knew more than I realized at the time.

Anyway, someone I know was in an organization commonly identified as a "destructive cult" for many years. He was brutally abused, and also admits to abusing others in the service of the cult. The members (including himself) would take the abuse, submit to beatings, imprisonment, being deprived of food, etc, because they believed they deserved it. Even when they could have walked free.

Many people who have never lived in an abusive situation have a hard time understanding that, but to me (and I'm sure others here) it makes perfect sense how that could happen. Brainwashing is brainwashing, whether it's family or government or religious group. 

This person eventually escaped, although he had to finally hit bottom before he felt he could run for it. I asked him how long it took before he really felt free. He said it was 5 years before he stopped waking up in a panic thinking he was "back there", and the programming started losing its hold. Now his life seems more or less "normal" (whatever that is). Speaking out in public as an activist has helped the process, too, I think.

I know 5 years might seem like a long time, but compared to how long some of us have been living with this, 5 years doesn't sound so bad. To know that these miserable feelings could have an end, that the brainwashing could eventually fall away, with a little work - that gives me hope.

And this might sound kind of weird, but it also helps me, personally, to remember that while people like my friend were threatened with losing their eternal life and failing the entire universe if they did not submit to their leader's will, I just have to fear one crabby old woman who isn't even especially clever. I mean, she may think she's the queen of the universe, but she's not, not by a long shot.   Not meaning to make light of anyone's suffering, it just helps me to keep my own situation in perspective.

Hey everyone,

I'm zazu, you may know me from Out Of The Fog.
I don't have a formal diagnosis of c-ptsd (does anyone formally diagnose that yet?) But I have been diagnosed with PTSD, as well as major depression, GAD, panic disorder and body dysmorphic disorder. So in other words, I'm a real piece of work. 

The topics on this board are the kinds of things I struggle with every day, so I'm really glad this place is here.

Looking forward to doing some real work on these issues.
Thanks for having me.