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Messages - VeryFoggy

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Introductory Post / Re: Joining today
« on: July 24, 2015, 08:31:13 PM »
Welcome Miss Understand, So sorry to hear it has taken you a lifetime to find out what is wrong but glad that you finally have  I knew there was something wrong for a long time, but did not get diagnosed until I was 57. But I am glad to know and it gives me something to work towards.

Before my diagnosis?  I just knew there was something wrong with me. I knew I was feeling a lot more than other people did in the same situations. Say 4 mangers and the boss are sitting in a conference room, and the 4 managers are getting chewed out. And I am one of the managers.  And the boss is a wildly angry apoplectic man who yelled first and asked questions later. And say he was screaming at the 4 of us.  I was the one paralyzed with fear.  The rest were merely uncomfortable or embarrassed.  But me? I was terrified and cried in the bathroom after the meeting was over.

So I've known a long time, particularly around angry people like my old boss that something was wrong. I also know or am learning how to either stick up for myself, fight through the fear and stick up for myself or else walk away. Since being diagnosed I have practiced many times giving that old boss a piece of my mind!

Anyway welcome and glad to have you!

OOTS11 - I am sorry you are left with limited choices at your young age.  I know what that feels like, and it is not a good feeling. But, I am also encouraged to hear you feel stronger as you are getting older.

There are a lot of resources on OOTF that may be helpful to you in dealing with your mother for now, as it seems you must. Have you tried the Tool Box on their site?  Have you considered you mother might be Personality Disordered, and if so, what sort of Disorder it might be?  Sometimes collecting information on what we are dealing with, and how to deal with it if we must can be helpful. There are a lot of resources there on OOTF. Medium Chill comes to mind where you simply do not engage.  And conversations run along the lines on your part of "That's nice." or "That's too bad."
I once had a conversation with my NPD sister for an hour, and that is all I said.  And she was happy.  She was a bit disappointed to not get anything out of me?  But I listened to her, for an hour, and either said "That's nice." or "That's too bad." So she could not complain.  It's a way of disengaging, and not getting caught up in drama and arguments and fights.

Also, setting boundaries, which is very difficult at first can help. The best book I ever read on this subject  is called Respect Me Rules. It is written by a brother and sister team called Marshall. This book is a life saver, and has literally saved my relationship with my own son. It took a while, and CONSISTENCY, but it works. I have been using the tools on him for about 2 months, and our relationship has drastically improved.  I suspect he is NPD as well, but he is not as entrenched, as he is only 31. So I highly recommend that book. It has helped me tremendously to deal with tough people.

I wish you the best on your journey, and I pray your mother is not Disordered, but if she is, you will have to find a way to deal with it, and STILL move on with your own life.

This why I recommended Pete Walker's book, as that one is for you alone, and possibly a therapist if you can swing it, so you have somebody to talk to face to face about all of your problems. We are here, and we care, but we are not professionals. But, we can offer hugs and support and ears!  :hug:

Hello OOTS11 - I just want to say welcome, and please know most of what you have felt and thought, we have all felt and thought. That may be hard to believe right now but it is true.  We are a community of people who have suffered as you have suffered, and felt what you felt and thought what you thought.

I will just give one quick example.  When I was 16 I knew I had to get out, to get away or I was going to die. I knew the longer I stayed the worse it would get.  So like you I did not panic.  Something, some will to survive, welled up in me and I got methodical, made a plan, a really good plan and I got out.  I had a boyfriend who wanted to be with me.  I made the price of being with me my freedom.  If he would help me escape?  I would be his.  I figured it could not be worse, it might be better and he loved me.  So I pretended to sell Avon products for a month.  I smuggled my clothes in my little Avon case out of my parents home for a month in preparation for our departure. Until all I wanted to take with us was gone.  Then we left.  We were very smart.  Ran to Alaska to some friends of his. I knew we could not be found in million years (this was 1974 pre obsessive behavior about people who fly). So I know what you mean about feeling your heartbeat slow down and kind of going on autopilot to survive.

Anyway I am so sorry you have gone through all that you have, you did not deserve it, none of us did.

It is very hard and it takes a long time, sometimes a lifetime I think to really understand what happened and to put it behind us, and move on.

But we are glad you are here and I hope you find hope, healing, and help.

Have you read Pete Walker's book Complex PTSD From Surviving To Thriving?  It has helped a lot of us, so maybe you will give it a try?

Again welcome and thank you for being brave and sharing your story.

Step 21 / Re: Steps Review and Summary
« on: July 20, 2015, 03:12:40 AM »
I am not yet to the point of making any meaning about the abuse, having been thrown right back into it with being presented with and yet another possible aspect. That in addition to physical, mental and spiritual abuse, now I am to consider that there was also sexual abuse, the ultimate betrayal. And having not yet worked through that, and all of the new feelings I am having.  I am nowhere near to done.

I am still very angry. But this is good, I think.  Finally!  To finally be angry about what was done to me! This is very good. And the anger is a self defense mechanism I have been missing all of my life.  So I am glad to have it.

I am FINALLY taking steps to take care of myself! Go me! Whoo hoo! And I am a calm and self contained enough person to trust and to know my anger never burns hot enough to really injure anyone, it is only healthy self defense.

I am So l glad we did this course together.  I have really learned a lot. It was deep and thought provoking, and meaningful, and I think ultimately brought all of us closer together for having done it. I am sorry to see it end.  But I will find my niche on OOTS and keep posting and keep searching and keep learning.

Thank you all of you for sharing a part of yourselves with me. I feel privileged and honored for sharing in this journey with you.

C. - Thank you for putting thought into my crazy rant.

All I know today is that since separating from all, since doing the confrontation letter and getting back nothing except negative feedback from everyone? Such as:  You can't do this!  You are crazy and a drunk!  You are being manipulative! You should do XYZ! You need to grow up! You need to toughen up! You endangered my employment and I won't stand for that!  Or, please don't tell my employer you were abused it will hurt my chances! Or the worst?  Absolute silence?

I have strung together a string of days with No flashbacks, No pain, No terror, No drama.

So I would have to say I am proud of my confrontation, and I got the desired result.  I am Pain free,  Drama free. Everybody is gone. Except my son, my daughter and my grandchildren.  And a couple of friends who don't know what I did.

And I feel good. Like I MIGHT now have a real chance at healing. I am sorry I had to abandon my family, my FOO?  But they abandoned me long ago. I now accept that. I really was the Scapegoat in every way you can possibly imagine. And I bore that shame for much too long.

I read a great book today that helped me called Necessary Endings by Charles Whitfield. He had a way of saying things that struck my soul repeatedly.  He reinforced what I had to do. He had great piece about the wise, the foolish and the evil. So I could see that I had treated them like they were wise for a long time.  That did not work.  Then I treated them like they were foolish for the last year or more. But finally I had to concede some of them were just evil. I felt a lot better after looking over what I had done and tried. I had worked so hard! To try to save each one of the relationships! But I failed.

But today I feel like I am worth saving. I enjoyed deeply what I have today, and pretty much accepted I have to, have to take care of the gift I was given of life. I have to take care of my body, even when I don't want to, and I have to take care of my mind and I have to respect and trust my feelings even when I don't want to. Even if everyone close to me tells me I am crazy, I have to respect my own feelings. I do miss my BF as he respected my feelings but I think today only ultimately to get his own needs met. I sold myself short and he took a shortcut and well it didn't work out.

Anyway I am going to respect that there is a reason I feel sick and physically ill around my father and mother.  I am going to respect that I have a reason for getting EF's from talking to my sister and my brothers about these things. I am going to respect that I would not feel that way unless something is terribly wrong.

I think today I decided for sure I am not crazy.  But they are. It's horrible and sad and awful. But today I cannot do anything about it except try to save me.

I am ultimately the only person I really even have a chance to save. I remembered a lot today.  I am not there yet? But I am getting there. I think I believe my own father did something terrible to me when I was 14.  A man did something to me when I was 14. But he had ace bandages around his head and I could not see who it was, But today I think it was him. So does my T.

It would explain a lot. About my fear and terror, and CPTSD. And feeling sick around my family and trying to protect my mother from him.

I keep telling my T either I am crazy or he is, but one of us is crazy!

Step 21 / Re: Steps Review and Summary
« on: July 17, 2015, 04:32:18 PM »
So much of your post I can relate to C!  Like not ascribing to what others consider the mandated way of doing things, what are the most important things to others?  They are as you say, things I LIKE?  But they are not the be all and end all of my existence.

For example, my sister and her best friend spend a tremendous amount of time discussing what they have bought, what they plan to buy and what they would like to buy.  And it drives me insane. With both of them, many times, I have tried to discuss feelings and thoughts and beliefs.  They treat like I am crazy. And BOTH of them then accuse me of thinking, believing and feeling things I do not. So I am no contact with both. We just can't understand each other at all.  I suspect they are both N's. They are very superficial people. But I totally get that feeling of being different and we are.  And we like ourselves anyway.

Also that feeling of being in rebellion a bit towards your parents.  I also get that.  For example mine are big on organized religion.  I shun organized religion.  I feel like I am a spiritual person?  With a deep connection to God, who soothes and blesses me?  But I cannot do organized religion.  Too many bad memories associated, with the bulk of it being my father's utter hypocrisy.  Watching an abuser for years and years, trying to lead and teach others about Christ's love just turns my stomach. So I understand the rebellion part, and I pray God understands too.  That He knows I do love Him, but I can't do religion per se.

Anyway good thought provoking post C!  Thank you!

Introductory Post / Re: New to Group (Possible Triggers)
« on: July 17, 2015, 04:16:57 PM »
Yes, welcome Brick!  I am so glad you found the site, and thank you for sharing your story.  It is horrible and awful, and nobody deserves to be treated like that.  I am so sorry!  :hug:

It is a tough journey you have decided to take, but I believe it is a good decision.  I am sure you already know that other choices only led to more of the same.  So you have decided to do something different, and I applaud you and your courage!

I know for me, finding a place of safety and calm was the only thing that helped me be able to have enough space in my head to sort out what I needed to do.  So I hope for your sake you do soon find a space where you feel safe, as that will definitely help the "emergency vehicle's sirens" to stop screaming.

I second Trees recommendation of Pete Walker's book 'Complex PTSD From Surviving To Thriving'. It definitely helped me start coming to terms with CPTSD. So I hope you will consider reading it. Most of us here have found it tremendously helpful.

Again welcome and you are safe here!  :hug:

Yes C!  I have always known who and what I am. I was not separated from my soul. Instead through therapy I am trying to learn why I tried to force those who could not know me, or love me or accept me as I am, to do so.

I have been my own and only best friend for many years.

So far the only answer I have been given is that I was born into a family of Discorded Personalities, and that every single person was Disordered except me. And that knowing that as an upbringing, then I naturally pursued the same type of people in my adult life for affection. She tells me it was familiar, so that is why I pursued it.

But, me personally?  I am given a pass by my therapist. According to her?  Me,  Jesus Christ, Buddha, Gandhi and Mother Teresa have much in common.

And you know what scares the crap out of me? Is I agree.  I agree that I have lived through more than any human being should ever be asked to bear. And yet I am still am trying! To be a kind, open, loving person who only wants to share with others what I can.  I DO feel like I have a piece of God, a tiny minute piece of God inside of me, that always wants to love and care and be kind, and caring and loving and forgiving and compassionate and empathetic. Who just wants to love.

So that in turn scares the crap out of me, because feeling that way, believing that I think I really am a good person who just wants to care, makes me believe I am a Narcissist. That I CANNOT believe I am who I believe I am, or else that makes me a Narcissist. If I believe I am a good and caring and loving person, who really wants to just be there for others?  Then I am lying! And trying to do what they do. Just use other people's emotion's to get what I want from them.

It is a sticky web as Kizzie once described it. I can't even trust myself anymore, even though I KNOW I am not like that. I know who and what I am?

The question is, will I accept it? Will I accept that I was raised by Disordered people and miraculously survived intact?

I feel like I am on the cusp, the brink really of making that decision. To really believe that there is a tiny piece of God inside of me, and that I am not a Narcissist for believing that, and I am a miracle, and it is okay to walk away from them all forever, and to look for people who feel like I do. I think if I find them I can make something bigger, better, and make a difference. I think I HAVE found some here in fact, children
of God, who are looking for a way to live, the way he meant us to live.  And, while here enjoying his blessings of beauty, learning, and love.

I want to make life better for somebody. I still try every day in new ways I have never known? Sometimes love has not been the answer.  Sacrificing myself has not been the answer. But all I have to rely on is what I have learned in the last year and a half. But sometimes letting people walk on you is not the answer. Sometimes the answer is saying no, I am just as good as you, and God loves me too. And just as much as you.

Sorry for the rant, I am on the cusp of something, for sure.

Introductory Post / Re: I'm confused
« on: July 14, 2015, 02:54:28 AM »
Welcome La!  And you are so brave for posting and sharing your feelings.  We are glad to have you. No one here will make fun of you or your feelings and everyone will share what they can.

I think after reading all that I have, that everyone's situation and feelings are unique to their own personal * that they have experienced.  Only symptoms are universal. For example, after I read the definition of the symptoms of PTSD in the DSM 5 (CPTSD is not yet recognized) I had every one of them.

So like Woodsgnome, my truth or some of it comes from dreams, while yours comes from images flying by. My recent truth came from a dream I had over and over for many nights, which was a voice saying to me, "Trust Your Feelings, Trust Your Feelings. Which I  have never done.  I was not allowed to have feelings as a child or an adult.  Only reason and logic. But once I allowed the feelings?  A lot more things I had never understood started making a lot more sense finally.  The pieces of the puzzle fell into place. This is ongoing, and I am slowly learning to trust my feelings as much as my reason and logic.  It is a whole new world.

So I wish you the best on your journey, and again welcome and look around, and please post wherever feels comfortable to you.  It is safe here. :hug:

Step 19 / Re: Announcements and Other Topics This Week
« on: July 12, 2015, 02:58:50 AM »
Thank you Trees!  I know you know what that feels like.

I have had a great revelation tonight. I know now that I was terrified for most of my first 16 years of life.  Wrong, right, or indifferent, I was terrified. I have never felt safe, and there was nothing to trust, or count on, or depend on, and I was terrified, and that is why I have CPTSD.  Nobody can live like that, not for 16 years and survive intact. I never felt safe.  I never knew what would happen next, never. There was no predicting because my dad was mentally ill.

I get this tonight deeply, and the rest be damned, I have great compassion for myself tonight, and  a lassitude, and feeling of letting go stealing into my body. And that is why I have to be here in my own home now, and alone and feeling safe. Not agoraphobic?  But feeling safe for a few years now, and now I can finally let go. I do trust me tonight, to take care of me.  And I was so wrong to try to make my sister my best friend, so wrong.  There was no way she could ever understand my feelings about my son, and why I could not take her advice.  She has never had a child, did not know what it was like to feed him with her own body and to care for his every need. 

I desperately now want to ask my own children both, did you ever feel safe with me? Did you ever trust me ever to take care of you? I so want them to have a felt a bit safe. I so want them to feel that I was a warrior, and that I was going to make them safe no matter what. I will ask soon.

Tonight I feel like my mother was a weak silly woman, who trusted a man, and her vows to keep her and her children safe. And look what has happened to her and to us? She carried him until he ground her into the dirt. And then he proceeded to break me and then broke my next brother, and then finally turned my sister and my youngest brother into Narcissists too. Just like him.

Tonight I am thinking: You made a bad decision mom.  And then you compounded it by refusing to leave him and protect us. Instead you listened to him instead of to yourself.

And so tonight, I feel like I will never again have a relationship with a man, and my last BF was as close as I am ever going to get. It would be different if my life had been different? But itís not and that last relationship is probably as good as itís ever going to get. It's going to have to be good enough.

I so want to cry. And I canít even cry. Even now knowing all that I do I still canít cry. That is so sad.

And NONE of what I wrote above is going to make any sense at all to anyone except me?  But I still posted it. Because I am just really deep in mourning right now.  Deep mourning. For all of the waste and ruin. That two people caused. My silly mother and my insane father. And, now 4 other lives have been ruined.

I hope and pray I can stop the madness. I hope my children felt safe.  I hope setting boundaries with my son will help. I hope my warrior example will help my daughter. But I want this to stop.

Step 20 / Re: Self Help Activity 4: Self-help becomes second nature
« on: July 11, 2015, 08:33:49 PM »
So funny C! 

Yes!  It was exactly like somebody was whispering in my ear, "Look hard head, you can't make a wasp over into something they were just not meant to be! Nor can you make certain people over either!  They are who they were meant to be. And sadly you must accept that some of them are wasps!"

And I really don't know if self help will ever become second nature. Because it is still a process I am learning and I do it with distaste and repugnance at having to act in ways that feel completely unnatural. However I have to say, it works.  It is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to learn to do for myself. And I still doubt I could actually use it on people who trigger me.  But for those who don't, like my son, I am having incredible results. When I stick to my guns.

He did a no-no the other the night and had someone female sleep over without my knowledge. That evening I simply said to him no  friends can sleep over.  That is my rule, He tried his usual tactics, name calling belittling, making fun, tried to entice me to argue.  But, I refused to be distracted or diverted, and I just kept repeating "My house, my rules, no friends may sleep over." And he finally gave up!  And he said okay, I understand.

I think that was a first. But not getting distracted and diverted into JADE takes MONUMENTAL effort on my part.

But when past experiences of sleep overs are prescription drugs, liquor, and money and credit cards go missing?  And my property gets damaged when they get in a fight?  And I am awakened and informed that their fight is physical, and the female wants me to come downstairs and stop it? And when I have found illegal drugs on my countertops in the mornings, and these two in particular have been hospitalized together for both overdosing at the same time?  Not to mention the experiment they did in my bathtub?   Then I would be insane to allow any more sleep over ever!

And I reminded myself of all of those things again this morning. My house, my rules, no sleep overs.

Boundaries are the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. But I do hope it gets easier.

Step 19 / Re: Announcements and Other Topics This Week
« on: July 11, 2015, 08:03:16 PM »
Thank you so much C! :hug:

Step 19 / Re: Announcements and Other Topics This Week
« on: July 11, 2015, 02:37:40 AM »
So I took my lists of things that made me suspect I was sexually abused to my therapist yesterday, and we only made it a quarter of the way through my lists.  Hopefully we will finish on Monday.  We are seeing each other again on Monday. 

But she was crying, in tears with the things I was telling her, and she told me she has treated many children who have been sexually abused, and she said every word I said sounded just like the stories they would tell her.  She also said she would go to court today and swear on a stack of bibles that my father sexually abused me.

So I am treating myself like a person who has been very ill, just being really gentle and very careful with myself.

I still don't and may never remember the actual acts?  But so many things now make sense. The barrier between me and my mother.  Why I was always petrified for my mother to find out certain things about me. I was trying to protect her.  I did not want her to know I had cheated on her with her husband. I was always told by my father that I was responsible.  That it was not his fault he felt that way. That it was my fault. I can't remember the acts, but he has always told me I was responsible for his feelings of lust.

So I am trying to be very gingerly careful, extra careful with me. It's hard to know these things, and my T said she did not want me to try to remember the actual acts? But I said to her, don't you see?  I have to know if he did this to me? I have to know because all of this time I have blamed myself?  And if I am not responsible? Then this is freeing for me, no matter how bad and how awful it is to know?  I need to know so I can feel free and clean and good and whole about me again.

I think she understands. And again I don't need to remember the acts.  Her tears and sorrow were enough for me to know, yes, it really did happen. I have so much circumstantial evidence it is not even funny. And now I can be sure. I am not crazy.  I am not bad. He was.  He is. And he has spent a lifetime building a fortress to protect himself in case I ever remembered. He is a man of God. Or so he says. He is a minister. A preacher.  A missionary.

For the last year and a half I have been waiting (futilely) for him to apologize for his acts of cruelty towards me in the present. But now?  Knowing this?  The only act he could do is what is the prescribed antidote in the church that he claims to hold so dear.  And that is to "come forward" as they call it and to confess to the whole church what he has done and to beg forgiveness publicly. Dream on.  Dream on.

Step 20 / Re: Self Help Activity 4: Self-help becomes second nature
« on: July 11, 2015, 01:50:24 AM »
I had a very strange "nature" experience this evening and I am still amazed by it. I was in my pool reading a book when  I saw a wasp struggling.  Its wings had gotten wet, and it was struggling. I normally don't save wasps.  I hate them, but I took pity and threw it out.  The silly thing then stood on the edge of the pool doing head stands and eventually fell right back in!  Well I resolved to not save it anymore. I had tried, but I forgot to keep an eye on it. 

But I found it. Somehow it had climbed out of the water onto me!  I felt something on my neck and I instantly knew what it was, so as I brushed at it to try to get it off of me,  it did what nature has programmed it to do. It stung me in the neck! Ow!  It still stings!

But I certainly did not attempt to rescue it again!  He is still in the pool struggling.  I gave him a chance at life and he squandered it and then stung me for my trouble.

This feels profound and exemplifies self help to me. I will always give people a chance?  Even if I know they have stingers and might try to hurt me? I will probably never be able to stop myself from doing that? Giving them one chance?   But if they sting me in the neck after I give them a chance?  Then I am going to leave them alone!

I don't know why this happened to me tonight, and I usually do get stung about once a year.  Hello, water equals wasps that they need to build their nests.  But this was definitely the weirdest experience with getting stung I have ever had.

And I do think everything happens for a reason. So maybe someday I will even learn to stop trying to help wasps become nice people who appreciate what you do for them. I will learn to look and see.  And say to myself, No, you are a wasp and I know what they do.  I know you cannot help it?  But I am not going to let you do it to me, so I am not going to try to help you.

It has been a terrible lesson to learn, and one I did not want to learn. But love does not always conquer all. But I cannot keep sacrificing myself for people who just want to sting me. That is NOT my purpose for being on earth.

And my neck still stings as a reminder!

Your anger and your feelings are righteous and deserved was my first response to your post C. This has not abated over time.

I think anger plays a MOST important role in recovery. If we are not angry about about unfair, undeserved treatment, that we have most definitely received then how are we to recover?

So I have learned to rage with anger and not fear it. Go into the anger, feel it. Grieve for what I wanted that was never received.

Today I was told that I was robbed. That feels right, I was robbed. My innocence was stolen from me.

It is appalling to see what we have been doing, with our loved, our beloved ones, simply repeating the same old story and trying to make it come out right this time.

But, I have hope, my good friend hope.

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