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Messages - Libby12

#31
General Discussion / Re: Trauma and Depression
October 13, 2017, 10:09:28 AM
I think I have suffered for as long as I can remember and certainly from teenage years.  On top of that, I can add post-partum depression twice and situational type depression from coping with challenging twins.  The final and worst episode resulted from employment difficulties and finally waking up fully to the lifetime of maternal abuse.

Thankfully,  learning about c-ptsd has eased the depression so much.
#32
Emotional Abuse / Re: "Get better"
October 11, 2017, 07:08:35 AM
My nm was always so proud of herself that she never once told me to "pull yourself together." What she never accepted was that she had a whole other, vast repertoire of phrases, looks and behaviours that communicated exactly that.   I was in no doubt that my pain was my own fault and it was up to me to recover from it.

The only path to recovery was no contact.

Libby.
#33
Letters of Recovery / Re: Dear Moth
October 11, 2017, 06:28:49 AM
So beautifully written.  I particularly liked the phrase about finding the person inside that your mother was too scared to set free.   That is exactly what these mothers do.  Keep us chained up because they are afraid.

Well done on breaking free and writing so beautifully.

Libby.
#34
Frustrated? Set Backs? / Re: Chronic Pain & Setbacks
October 08, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
Hi ToreyP.

I am so sorry to hear of all the pain you are suffering and it is something I really relate to.   I remember a lot of physical pain as a child,  which was always invalidated by my abusive parents.   It worsened over the years until I reached my 40's.  It was at this point I finally accepted that my parents had and continued to affect me so badly so contact was cut completely.

It has been a slow process, and I have gone through some awful periods of debilitating pain, but after five years I am feeling less pain and coping better with the pain I do have.

I really feel for you with regard to work causing pain.   My attempts to work were unsuccessful.   I wish that everyone here could be adequately supported so that they had time to heal, but I know that is just a pipe dream.

I don't know if my experience will help,  because everybody is so different,  but I will try to explain how I got to this relatively good place.

First of all, having been prescribed so many different anti-depressants and pain killers and hormone treatments over the years,  I have decided to stick with my current one, which is an SNRI.  In the past,  I always worried that whatever I was currently taking wasn't working (when I was low and in pain).  Now I just take it regardless.   I take no painkillers of any sort - I have accepted that they simply don't work for me, for the type of pain I have.

Secondly, I have given up completely on the medical profession.  I honestly don't believe that they understand or care.  The last GP I saw was completely dumb-founded by the idea that depression etc could cause physical pain and even more confused by the idea that any of this could be linked to an adverse childhood!  He prescribed two medications that don't go together (tricyclics and SNRIs) and pressed me to take more painkillers.

He seems pretty standard with regards to the medical profession and knowing someone in her last year of medicine,  I don't see things improving.   She is one of the most invalidating of my dd's circle of friends and yet she is the one who will be a doctor next year!

I have decided to seek no further support for psychological issues.  In the UK there is nothing much available,  with very long waiting lists.   I have had CBT,  which gave me some ways of helping myself,  but did not address the root causes. Basically,  for me, all professional help has left me further invalidated and damaged so no more of that.

Thirdly,  I have given up on the idea that anyone other than my husband and daughter (and to a lesser extent,  my sons, because they have life long difficulties themselves)  understand or care.  Although not enmeshed and cruel like my parents,  my in-laws have always shut me down if I ever tried to talk about myself and my difficulties with my FOO and how hard it was caring for twins with developmental difficulties, they would just shut me down and tell me they knew people in far worse situations to me. They weren't but it was enough to shut me up.  The last time I saw them,  I was so triggered that I had the worse bout of pain,  lasting weeks,  that I've had in ages.  Instead of trying to make things better with them,  I have said to dh that I will just follow his lead with them and it has relieved the pressure and the pain.

I am getting much kinder to myself in all ways. That has been a huge change bought about by reading all the posts and advice here and any other resources I come across.   This has been more life changing than anything any professional has been able to offer me.

I don't know if this helps at all, but I would like to add one more thing.   My dd who is in her twenties, doing a PhD in neuroscience,  living with her partner and with a good social life,  also suffers from chronic pain. She doesn't have c-ptsd,  so it's different from us, but fits with endometriosis or IBS or CFS or who knows what.  But she really suffers.  We talked at length yesterday and completely unprompted by me she tells me that she has decided against seeking medical opinion as her symptoms could be so many things, probably a mix of things,  all inter-related and so beyond the scope of the medical profession.   She is highly educated, with degrees in psychology and neuroscience,  and has read all around her symptoms. She has no faith in doctors - believes mind and body are just too complex. Being so completely invalidated by her long standing soon to be doctor friend has further strengthened her current view. She says her boyfriend validates her pain, as do I,  and so for now she is going to manage her pain as best she can and see how things go.

I hope people don't think I am encouraging others not to seek medical help when they feel they need it. It's just that for me, it didn't help and really made things worse.  To seek validation of my pain, after a lifetime of invalidation just led to more layers of trauma.  Getting out of the cycle seems to have helped me, but I am sure this is not the case for everyone.

Sorry for such a long post and hope that there might just be a little something in it to help you.  Even if that's not the case,  please know that I really feel for you,  and understand your suffering.

All the best to you.

Libby
#35
Hi greendoor.

Don't apologise for this post at all.  I am really pleased you shared all of this because the situations you have described are similar to things I have been wondering about.

I don't have anything like the vague swimming related memory.  That does sound as if there really is a memory there.  It sounds like a very scary feeling and maybe it will become clearer when you are ready to deal with it.

However,  I really relate to the other things you talked about.  I too was not allowed to wear underwear to bed and was given much the same reasons. Also,  I have a very clear memory from about six years old of having some sort of bladder issue or infection that required cream to be applied down below and a dressing of some sort taped into place, so that I couldn't pass urine for a certain amount of time,  until the dressing was due to be changed.  This was ironic because I was told I had caused the problem by holding onto my wee.  I think I did do this, mainly because my nm was always so cross with me,  including about needing to go to the loo.  She compounded the issue by telling other parents all about it and soon their children bullied me about it.  Like you, I have wondered if there was some link with sexual abuse behind all this.  I just don't know but it was definitely abuse - maybe physical but definitely emotional.

I say this, and perhaps you will relate,  because I think the real issue is that these harmful parents just think they own you,  body and soul.   They may not,  and probably didn't get any sexual satisfaction from these actions, but they got absolute control over their child. And that was their goal.

Other things I found unsettling in childhood were things like this. 

My nm would send my ef into the bathroom on the rare occasion I was allowed a bath, to collect a kitchen towel from the cupboard in the bathroom.   Mother rarely changed these towels so it always seemed like a big coincidence.  When I grew older and complained,  they mocked my prudery.   

My parents liked to sleep naked - not even underwear for them,  and I hated bumping into them at night.  I hated seeing ef in a state of arousal. The issue was compounded by the fact that they didn't just treat this as normal, they were so openly proud.  It was almost flaunting,  and laughing at me for being such a prude.

They discussed sex whilst my sister and I were in the car with them.  The discussion wasn't overt, but it was clear to me from a very young age, what they were talking about.

I am sorry that this is so long but I think I am getting to the point now. And it is one that you might possibly relate to.

Sexual abuse wasn't discussed in the seventies like it is today and yet I spent the whole of this decade so aware of it. I was aged five to fifteen.  Where did this fear come from?  It was so in my consciousness , that one Christmas I felt that I could not leave my father and my mother's mother alone in the sitting room.   I have always been so ashamed that I thought something sexual would happen if I left. This fear was based on no events I am aware of, it's preposterous and I am so full of shame that I have never spoke of or written about this in the forty years since it happened. I have other similar memories but this is the most vivid.

The only explanation I can come up with is that my parents were highly sexual,  and for some reason I picked up on this far too much and from far too young an age. My parents were never physically affectionate to me, not even when I was a baby. I believe , so I think that early in life, I began to equate too many wrong things with sex. For example,  my nm never held my hand as a small child,  but loved to hold hands in public with ef.  Consequently,  I was embarrassed by this and got upset,  something nm has never forgiven me for as she told me in our final meeting when I was nearly fifty.

I hope all of these ramblings make some sense and actually relate to what you are worried about in your post. I have never really talked about any of this, just a little to my husband.   I think I feel ashamed of being aware of sexual matters from such an early age, but I could only have got this awareness from my inappropriate parents.   I still think it was all about having power over me, which was nm's main goal in regard to me.  It is said that rape is about power and not about sex, so perhaps there is a sort of parallel here?

Finally,  do you think the sort of things we have both discussed with regards to are parents comes under the heading of emotional incest? I have heard of this term but am unsure of it. Perhaps some of the wise people here on OOTS can shed some light on this whole murky area.

Thank you so much for being so brave in bringing this up.  I have a real headache now, but it has been so helpful for me to express all of this.

Best wishes,

Libby.




#36
Welcome to the forum,  Spencer.  As you have probably seen,  a lot of us, me included, have suffered at the hands of our abusive parents (and families)  for our whole lives. Like you, I was disowned by my family,  in my forties, when I said I was depressed and blamed them.

Being away from them completely was the only way to heal,  for me. 

It is very sad that your marriage has come to an end.  But it sounds as if you are approaching this very responsibly, despite the sadness of the situation.  I am happily married but realised a while back that my husband couldn't really support me in dealing with all the fall out from my relationship with my FOO because,  despite always knowing how truly awful they were, he doesn't get what it has done to me.  When I accepted this, it was a turning point.  At first,  it was scary to think that I was so alone in all this, but it was a release of sorts, because now I leave him to deal with his issues and his family,  and I deal with mine and take care of myself.  We are much happier and we are still a close family.  It is clearly time for you to take care of yourself, and you can do this whilst still being a good parent. Hopefully we can be your place of support because we do understand.

All the best to you and thanks for joining.

Libby.
#37
Please Introduce Yourself Here / Re: I'm newly joined
September 19, 2017, 09:53:32 AM
Oh hank, I really feel for you.  Everything thing you describe is exactly how I would have described myself at the end of last year.

However, over the last few months,  I have really started to heal. This has been the result of reading everything I can on the Internet ; reading books like The body keeps the score and the Pete Walker books and reading and posting here.  These resources seemed to set me on a course of wanting to heal from the emotional and physical pain that I had suffered from for, well my whole life really.   I think it all came down to validation - I simply had never had that.

So please,  please get all the help and advice you can.  There are and probably always will be ups and downs,  but there is hope.  I would not have believed it a while ago but things are improving and I truly hope they will for you too.

I look forward to hearing more of your story.

Best wishes,

Libby.
#38
Hi again.

This is such an interesting discussion so I hope you don't mind me butting in again.

Frederica, your mother sounds so like mine.  She was so uninvolved with her children and grandchildren,  so unemotional (except for anger and criticising) and housework and cooking always came first.

Like candid, I really picked up on your feeling that you were less worried that any child you had would die than that they would be miserable.   I have always felt that and thought it was odd, so I am pleased that I am not alone.  When my children go out or away on trips, I don't worry that they may be involved in a crime or accident.   I think I could cope. But if they tell me that someone has been mean to them; they tell me they are depressed or feeling hopeless or whatever,  I absolutely fall apart.  I feel such an overwhelming responsibility for their happiness that it is just too much for me most of the time.  I can help them through and have done on many occasions but at such an emotional cost to me.   I feel that as I chose to give them life then I feel so guilty that they are unhappy.

I am sure candid is right to say that this comes from my own upbringing.   My nm seemed to feel absolutely no responsibility for my happiness.   I was responsible for her happiness but it was down to me to be happy in myself.   I was told all the time that I just didn't try to be happy so my sadness was simply my own fault.   When I was severely depressed they finished with me and my family altogether.  I hope this doesn't sound awful but when I see reports of really ill children,  of course I am sad that they may die, but I think that at least they have these wonderful parents who are fighting for them and devoting themselves to them.  It seems to me to be OK to die when there has been so much love.  My heart goes out to the children (and animals) who no one loves and wants, more so than the ones who are poorly but so loved.

I have a SIL who I think maybe BPD and she was unsure as to whether she had wanted children or not and asked me what I thought. I said that although I would not be without my children,  I couldn't have imagined how hard was  the constant worrying about them. I think it was right that she didn't have children because everything about her character and behaviour suggested to me that she would likely be a traumatising mother like mine. So many people have children for many bad reasons.  If you do have a child,  Frederica,  I think it will be for the right reasons,  and that means you will be a good mother.

Thank you for letting me join in here.

All the best,

Libby.
#39
Hi writeoflife.

One thing I am absolutely sure of is that you are not crazy.   I am absolutely no expert but could this a form of emotional flashback? 

When I started looking into c-ptsd, I related to almost everything except that I didn't think I had EFs.   But the more I read, the more I realised that EFs seem to be "slippery"  in nature.  They take very many forms and then on top of that,  everyone has their own individual way of describing them.  After all, describing a feeling is so difficult.   You seem to have described your experience really well, and I really get what you are saying about current events colouring the memory of previous experiences.  I think all memories are experienced a little differently each time because of new experiences adding to/altering them a little.  In fact,  that really is the crux of c-ptsd.   The layers of trauma that build up and each layer affects the next. I think that makes a bit of sense.

So please don't worry,  I am positive you are not going crazy and I would be really interested to hear how you get on in your next meeting with your therapist.  Getting to grips with this horrid injury is helped so much by sharing,  so thank you.

All the best,

Libby.
#40
Friends / Re: cannot make friends
September 17, 2017, 06:36:16 PM
Hi Cepheidvox.

I know exactly how you feel.  It is something I have always struggled with and never really succeeded for any length of time.  You sum it up so well when you talk of the obligation of friendship.  I am good at chatting superficially but am terrified at even the thought of a deeper connection with people.

I have said many times that I only trust my husband and my children.

I so wish that I had some useful advice for you.  I suspect that I might be quite a bit older than you, so that I find I have just accepted that this is how I am.  I do think, however, that if I had got to grips with this c-ptsd earlier, I would have found myself more able to try out friendship.

I think the key is probably to heal yourself as much as you possibly can. With improved self-esteem and feeling happy with yourself and taking good care of yourself, friendship will hopefully just crop up naturally.  As a child,  I was made fun of for not having friends.   This was at home and at school.   I felt so ashamed. So I don't push myself or make myself feel bad, just accept myself for who I am. I am also grateful for the people I do have.

Sorry that I haven't anything more helpful for you,  but I wanted to say that I really relate to what you wrote,  and that I hope others here have some better insights.  But above all, don't put yourself down about this, especially as you have friends here.

Best wishes,

Libby
#41
Hi frederica

This is a really interesting discussion and it took me a while to see how it related to me.  I have three grown-up children so I just wondered if anything from that perspective might help just a little.

My nm has said that having children was the best thing she ever did in her life.  She was damaging to both me and my sister but in different ways.

Looking back, somewhat like you, I had no idea at all whether I wanted children or not.  Nm said it was so amazing and yet most of the time, she seemed to dislike being a mother (especially to me, as I was the SG. I was meant to make her happy but I just failed dismally from the day I was born).  She bought me up to believe that my life had to be just like hers,  wife and mother, to which ends she filled my every moment with household and caring duties. But on top of this, she made it absolutely clear that I was not good enough,  nice enough,  attractive enough to ever find a husband to have to have this life, with children, with.   I was left utterly confused about what I wanted. I often said that I didn't like children but I really don't know what I felt.

Amazingly,  I did meet someone who actually liked me.  Amazingly, he wanted to marry me.  As soon as we married,  they pressured me into having children.  I still don't really know for sure if I wanted children at this point, but pressure from parents to give them grandchildren,  and nm's comments about my age, pushed me into it.  I probably did want children but that was not the prime motivator.  That was my parents and the role that I had been given from early in life.

I had a daughter,  and as my parents had just had two girls (I was the oldest)  I had followed the path set out for me by them. I then wanted to have another baby quickly.  l wasn't fully aware why at the time because I found being a mother very hard. Why have a second child and be even more stressed. Even then, on some level,  I realised that I was under pressure to recreate my FOO,  by having a second baby very quickly.   There was only just over a year between my sister and I.  I was positive I would have a second girl.  In fact,  I found out I was having twins and they were both boys.  My goodness,  did that cause trouble.  I think my mother resented me, thought I was trying to out do her or something,  so set about a campaign to ensure that I did not feel special in any way. Parents always said that they didn't like boys so having boy twins sealed our fate with them.  I didn't realise at the time, but this was the start of my journey OOTF.  I wasn't my mother and she didn't like this.

Had I recreated my FOO,  I have little doubt that I would have remained in the FOG,  and traumatised my dd in much the same way as I was traumatised.  Marrying someone who was not fooled by my parents and then having a different mix in my FOC ultimately saved all of us but especially me and my dd and our relationship. Sounds dramatic,  but I am positive it is true, because the more I escaped from enmeshment with my parents,  the better mother I became.  And wife, for that matter.

Sorry for the very long story,  but I wanted to tell it, partly to get it out of my system,  so thank you,  but also to say that I really understand what you are feeling.   This idea that your reproductive status was taken over by someone in your past, leaving you unable to truly know what you want.

I think it is actually good that you are questioning yourself.  I didn't and it could have turned out to be a disaster for me and for my children.   I was lucky, that's all. You are really thinking and considering what would be best for you, and what life would be like for any future children with you as their mother.  That is so responsible and I wish my nm had done that.

Perhaps I am just being "romantic",  but maybe the answer to your question about whether you want children will become clear when you are in a position to decide to have a child.  Whether that be meeting someone or being able to become a parent through an alternative route.  You have done all of the groundwork,  so to speak, so you will know if and when the time is right for you and for the child.   If you don't become a parent,  then I believe you will have also reached a very responsible outcome,  if that makes sense.  Also,  have you looked at your own childhood for other clues to your feelings?

You clearly have a good understanding of yourself so I believe you will make the right decision at the right time, whatever that may be.

As a final comment, (I promise I will finish soon!)  my dd doesn't know if she wants children or not.   This is based on all sorts of things like the long history of pds and depression etc in my mother's family,  health issues of her own (physical and psychological), and being very aware (she is a psychologist and neuroscientist) of the gravity of having children.   I believe that whatever decision she comes to will be the right one for her, her partner and any child,  because she will have thought it through so carefully.  You will do that too,  I think.

My twins are autistic / brain-damaged and although they function quite well now, they will probably never have a relationship or children.  That is how it is and I don't resent them not giving me grandchildren!!  If my dd does have a child,  I will be a good grandma,  but if she doesn't,  I know that that will be right for her.

I hope I have managed to say something just a bit helpful to you.  I just wish you all the best in the future and applaud for your careful consideration of this important aspect of life.

All the best,

Libby.

#42
Hi Lynzmann.

I really feel for you and can relate to some of the very difficult situations you are dealing with.   I, too, have twins - one autistic and one with difficulties related to brain damage.  I also have a daughter who is two years older than them.  They are grown up but the twins still live with us and I am still traumatised by coping with them all when they were younger.   I really wonder how I ever got through it.

The big difference in our stories is that the pd in my life was my mother and not my husband.  We didn't live close to her but she controlled my every thought and action, in the same way as you describe your husband. For me, I came to realise that I couldn't be a good mother to my children because I was so consumed by fear of her, and all of our lives centred around keeping her and ef happy.  There was no energy left to deal with the children who all needed such a lot of attention. Coming OOTF was a long process but the further I went,  the better parent I became.

I feel for you so much, because at least I still had my husband,  but absolutely nobody else. It must be absolutely terrible and frightening for you to find yourself alone but I want to assure you that I found that not having my pd parents in my life made me a much better mother than I would have been had I still been controlled by them. The 'help and support ' they gave me was just not worth the horrendous stress they caused everyone.  Being alone is better than being controlled and after a while you hopefully come to see that it is good to start determining for yourself what you and your children need.

I know that having a pd spouse is very different to having pd parents,  I just wanted to welcome you to the site and say that I understand a lot of what you are going through and would like to support you here in any way possible.

All the best,

Libby.
#43
General Discussion / Re: My experience.
September 15, 2017, 03:10:30 PM
Hello dsgirl.

That is a really awful description of your life with your parents.   It must have been even worse to go through all of this in a foreign country,  where you were also bullied at school. I know that feeling that there is no escape from the fear wherever you are, and I know all about the physical and emotional suffering you talk about.  I think most people here have battled with all of these issues.   It's just so tiring and so unfair, isn't it?

I suffered at the hands of a nm and ef for forty plus years and am just getting to grips with all of the trauma over the last year, but I am coping so much better and that is in no small part thanks to the support and learning I have found here.   I hope you find a way through all of the pain and we will all help in any way you want.

Best wishes and thanks for joining OOTS.

Libby.
#44
Please Introduce Yourself Here / Re: Hello =)
September 12, 2017, 06:53:14 PM
Welcome Liminality.

Please take your time in deciding how you want to make use of the support available here.

I have never posted on any forum before I found OOTF and I have found OOTS even more helpful because people are both kind and really understand how I feel.

I hope you find this forum is right for you.   It has helped me so much over the last few months and I hope you find this too.

Best wishes,

Libby
#45
Welcome to OOTS,  EricS.

Hopefully you will find this to be a helpful and supportive forum.  I certainly have, and have made an huge amount of progress in getting to grips with c-ptsd in the past few months,  thanks greatly to reading and posting here.

You clearly have a very good grasp of the effects of trauma,  and I imagine that you may have done a lot of reading already,  but there are lots of excellent resources on this site. 

I hope you too find the support you need here and we look forward to hearing more from you on the boards.

Your attitude of wanting to deal with this sounds very positive and we are pleased to help all we can.

Libby