Post submission edit: I appear to have written a short essay, apologies.
Thanks Kizzie, I'll try making a list of why I feel NC is essential for me right now. I do have a list of pivotal moments that I think contributed to this situation and I could do with reflecting on it more. I think I probably look for too much validation from other people about being no contact and feel all sorts of wrong when I imagine that they're thinking badly of me. I guess essentially it's people pleasing and what I was ultimately trained to do in order for the abuse to remain behind closed doors. I lose my own truth and reality in the process though and try to fit other people's narratives, when they're not the ones that have had to live through and cope with any of it.
I've written some further lines based along your suggestion and it's come far more easily to me today. I wrote this without realising until I read it back how important it feels to get it across: "...I am not going to provide examples [of previous bad behaviour] because these are numerous and past behaviour I can forgive to a point. It is in fact the likelihood of continued mistreatment and the harmful, ill effects of this that I refuse to subject myself to." If I could remain in contact without being hurt constantly then I would, but he seems to get off on the disorder and power plays. That's what I'm making a stand against and want to make abundantly clear.
Yes, the thoughts are so maddening! Life is generally very peaceful until something triggers me to think of him, then I quickly descend into feelings of chaos and shame. I think the fact that your FOO couldn't move on from seeing you as the scapegoat is very telling of the dysfunction and how difficult it is to be expected to step back into that role once you begin to learn who your real self is. There's very much a set way of thinking and doing and if you dare step out of line you leave yourself open to abuse. It's true, they do speak a different language and have a different perspective. I think from NF's point of view I never used to stand up for myself and the rest of the FOO continues to show allegiance and subservience to him, so to him I'm blatantly the problem because I'm the only constant that changed. If I had remained in contact then perhaps I could have worked on boundaries and relentlessly attempted to have these respected after being trampled over and over again, but I don't think my self-esteem was up to it. When I started that route before no contact he seemed to take great pleasure in putting me in my place and ignoring reasonable requests designed to protect my sanity (i.e. I requested that we stay in contact via email or text messages as opposed to phone calls...such a simple thing but he flat out refused to do it). It seemed very much like a game to him and I felt he was mocking and undermining me every step of the way. I was fast approaching 30 and really felt like my time would be better spent working on the assertiveness that I had never been taught and had been holding me back in my work life, rather than engaging any further in the dysfunction.
My NF can react in detail the way that your FOO does and gets stuck on the particulars of a discussion rather than seeing the bigger picture, interjecting it with mockery and acting like he's above whatever you're trying to get across to him. When I was in contact with NF I wouldn't even attempt it as I knew it would result in him attempting to humiliate me. I'm pretty much 99% sure he won't take on board anything I put forward in a letter or email to him (most likely email) and will choose the usual route of smearing me and mocking everything I've said, but what I say will come from a place of honesty and years of self-reflection so I feel the outcome on his end doesn't matter too much. So long as it doesn't prompt drive-by visits and harassment, that's the only real worry.
Thanks Blueberry, yes it has helped very much.
You don't come across as bossy at all and what you've shared is really helpful! Reframing it as an adult/adult relationship is definitely something I could and should put more focus on. I find myself slipping into the role of caregiver/adult because his behaviour is so childish. I also find myself being lenient on him for this as I put it down to his developmental age being stunted but then I remember that he knows perfectly well how to act like a mature, sensitive adult when interacting with people he needs to keep on side. I always forget that he's perfectly capable of this and knows how to behave appropriately in social settings, he just chooses manipulation and guilt tripping with me instead.
The last thing I want is a conversation with him as he will just rage and gaslight me, which I'm not emotionally prepared for. I'm naturally better at expressing my thoughts in writing in most scenarios anyway, so it's my default preference with anyone the majority of the time. Using the "I" statements is a really helpful suggestion and something I'll definitely take on board. I've recently been listening to a brilliant podcast about boundaries ("Beyond Bitchy" hosted by Vicki Tidwell Palmer - it's really helpful) and this is something that's come up on there a few times. It takes aggression out of the exchange but still allows you to express that the other person has mistreated you. It does feel a little bit like I'm downplaying things but then he is a very volatile person prone to fits of rage without any clue about how to healthily express emotion. It's why I won't even contemplate sending anything until a while after he attempts to contact me again, and even then I'm going to ensure that it's done once lockdown has greatly eased so that he has more distractions and is less like a caged lion. Chances are he'll just end up ranting to my brothers on the phone who in turn will just say "oh right" at the correct places, but regardless it makes sense for this to be sent at a time when emotions are less high across the board. It might not even be until next year, but I really want to feel prepared for it.
Thanks Jazzy. It's one of those things I think I have to journey through in order to gain some peace and clarity and it does really help to discuss it all and think it through first.
And it's really helpful and reassuring to know that others relate and can share their experiences, thank you all.
Quote from: Kizzie on May 25, 2020, 07:47:40 PM
One thing that may help with the shame is to write down all the reasons you went NC and read that when it rises up in you. We are good people doing something that does not sit well with our values so we need to reinforce why we went/stay NC.
If you do think you'd feel better letting him know why you have chosen to go NC, I like the examples you came up with already - honest, short and to the point.
My suggestion FWIW: "Three years ago I made the decision to end my relationship with you because far too often in my life your behaviour toward me was harmful, abusive even. I reached a point where it became too painful and I saw no possibility of you taking responsibility or changing. It was not an easy decision to end the relationship but I wish you well and ask that you respect my decision not to have any further contact."
Thanks Kizzie, I'll try making a list of why I feel NC is essential for me right now. I do have a list of pivotal moments that I think contributed to this situation and I could do with reflecting on it more. I think I probably look for too much validation from other people about being no contact and feel all sorts of wrong when I imagine that they're thinking badly of me. I guess essentially it's people pleasing and what I was ultimately trained to do in order for the abuse to remain behind closed doors. I lose my own truth and reality in the process though and try to fit other people's narratives, when they're not the ones that have had to live through and cope with any of it.
I've written some further lines based along your suggestion and it's come far more easily to me today. I wrote this without realising until I read it back how important it feels to get it across: "...I am not going to provide examples [of previous bad behaviour] because these are numerous and past behaviour I can forgive to a point. It is in fact the likelihood of continued mistreatment and the harmful, ill effects of this that I refuse to subject myself to." If I could remain in contact without being hurt constantly then I would, but he seems to get off on the disorder and power plays. That's what I'm making a stand against and want to make abundantly clear.
Quote from: Blueberry on May 25, 2020, 11:37:20 PM
I have been through these thoughts again and again blues_cruise and know how excruciating and even maddening they are. My experience has been that whatever I have said / written to FOO over the years has not got through to FOO. I say "over the years" because I have been NC with one FOO mbr and gone back to contact and NC with another and gone back to contact and VLC with almost everybody and gone back to gradually more contact since it had seemed they'd understood and changed until two utterly devastating incidents where it was obvious that they hadn't changed in the least and where it became obvious that I'm still FOO Scapegoat no. 1 aka the family garbage dump. Since then I've been vvvvvvlc with everybody, adding more and more 'v' to that as I realise (1) the depth of dysfunction in FOO and (2) how much it has been damaging me on a daily basis.
I've written a lot of Recovery Letters on here (non-sender letters to FOO mbrs) to get my feelings out. I also read over at OutOfTheFog and sometimes asked questions. I remember one mbr there, who'd gone through similar to me in a way - out of contact, back in, out again several times - saying that FOO can't understand us because it's as if we speak a completely different language to them. Our experiences as we try and make sense of what we went through and the steps we take to heal - it's completely foreign to those who haven't done this type of introspection or taken these steps so it's impossible to say or write anything that they'll understand. I've explained things before and FOO particularly enF claims to be clueless and oh so hurt. Even me simply stating my boundaries used to be too much for FOO - they 'forgot' or 'got confused'. Needless to say my parents are now older than they were when they 'got confused' and enF though not yet suffering from dementia is getting more forgetful, but they no longer 'forget' that I don't accept phone calls from any FOO mbrs. They still 'don't understand' though and play mind games with me by forgetting other very important information (I'm Exceedingly VLC not NC).
Idk if all families react in detail the way my FOO does but faced with a statement like "There were constant occasions where you were very unpleasant to me and showed no signs of remorse or desire to change...I got fed up with it." certain mbrs of my FOO including both parents attack the statement: they parse the sentence, look for inconsistencies, explain how illogical it is and that I used the wrong words (e.g. do I really mean constant as in 100% or could that be an exaggeration? or 'unpleasant' what does unpleasant mean? give us examples / prove it). By that time I'm so triggered because that's how they acted in my childhood and all through my teen years and later... that I can't do anything for myself except maybe cry or dissociate (in person). If it's by letter, I can handle it better, but it still doesn't change anything on the outside.
This has got rather long but I hope it helps you a bit blues_cruise. It's not on you, it's on them.
Yes, the thoughts are so maddening! Life is generally very peaceful until something triggers me to think of him, then I quickly descend into feelings of chaos and shame. I think the fact that your FOO couldn't move on from seeing you as the scapegoat is very telling of the dysfunction and how difficult it is to be expected to step back into that role once you begin to learn who your real self is. There's very much a set way of thinking and doing and if you dare step out of line you leave yourself open to abuse. It's true, they do speak a different language and have a different perspective. I think from NF's point of view I never used to stand up for myself and the rest of the FOO continues to show allegiance and subservience to him, so to him I'm blatantly the problem because I'm the only constant that changed. If I had remained in contact then perhaps I could have worked on boundaries and relentlessly attempted to have these respected after being trampled over and over again, but I don't think my self-esteem was up to it. When I started that route before no contact he seemed to take great pleasure in putting me in my place and ignoring reasonable requests designed to protect my sanity (i.e. I requested that we stay in contact via email or text messages as opposed to phone calls...such a simple thing but he flat out refused to do it). It seemed very much like a game to him and I felt he was mocking and undermining me every step of the way. I was fast approaching 30 and really felt like my time would be better spent working on the assertiveness that I had never been taught and had been holding me back in my work life, rather than engaging any further in the dysfunction.
My NF can react in detail the way that your FOO does and gets stuck on the particulars of a discussion rather than seeing the bigger picture, interjecting it with mockery and acting like he's above whatever you're trying to get across to him. When I was in contact with NF I wouldn't even attempt it as I knew it would result in him attempting to humiliate me. I'm pretty much 99% sure he won't take on board anything I put forward in a letter or email to him (most likely email) and will choose the usual route of smearing me and mocking everything I've said, but what I say will come from a place of honesty and years of self-reflection so I feel the outcome on his end doesn't matter too much. So long as it doesn't prompt drive-by visits and harassment, that's the only real worry.
Thanks Blueberry, yes it has helped very much.
Quote from: Jazzy on May 26, 2020, 12:00:29 AM
I've asked myself this many times trying to deal with my M. So, I'll just share some of what I learned in my situation, and hopefully something will be helpful to you. Sorry if this isn't the best way to post. I have a hard time with giving too much advice/telling people what to do. I try not to be bossy, but sometimes it feels like the only way I know how to talk. Anyway...
I think the most important thing I learned is to re-frame things in my mind, and think about them in terms of an adult/adult relationship, instead of a parent/child relationship. I am extremely lenient with my M, as she is my M, but I still make it a point to think how I would act/feel if someone I wasn't related to was acting as she did. If nothing else, this helps me to keep things from getting too far out of hand.
Another thing is that I don't owe M an explanation for LC/NC. A relationship (and contact) requires both parties to be involved. She is just as involved as I am, and should be able to figure things out by taking just a minute to reflect on the situation and the history. The fact that she really can't figure it out shows just how bad her NPD is/how disconnected from the real world she really is. That's unfortunate, and sad, but ultimately not my responsibility.
Attempting to explain why LC/NC was just another opportunity for more gas lighting/abuse, and no matter what/how I said things, she was going to feel attacked. It took me many years to realize this, and it never went well for me until I accepted this, and was prepared for it before I said anything.
IME, it is far easier to write it down in a letter or email rather than talk about it. Verbally arguing/talking back/discussing with M is impossible for me. It also isn't a conversation (unless you want it to be, of course), and a notice in writing gives far less opportunity for rebuttal/interjection.
There is also the old trick of "using I statements". "I felt hurt" is less hostile than "you hurt me". I realize this really is downplaying what was done, and I only mention it because it may help in a situation like this to make the LC/NC explanation a little easier. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend such a thing, especially when trying to resolve a problem.
That's about all I have to offer. This is a really difficult situation, but I hope you find some peace with however you proceed. Whatever happens, you will get past this and continue on with your life, so I hope it does not become too overwhelming between now and then. Wishing you strength, peaceful thoughts, and hugs if you'd like. All the best!
You don't come across as bossy at all and what you've shared is really helpful! Reframing it as an adult/adult relationship is definitely something I could and should put more focus on. I find myself slipping into the role of caregiver/adult because his behaviour is so childish. I also find myself being lenient on him for this as I put it down to his developmental age being stunted but then I remember that he knows perfectly well how to act like a mature, sensitive adult when interacting with people he needs to keep on side. I always forget that he's perfectly capable of this and knows how to behave appropriately in social settings, he just chooses manipulation and guilt tripping with me instead.
The last thing I want is a conversation with him as he will just rage and gaslight me, which I'm not emotionally prepared for. I'm naturally better at expressing my thoughts in writing in most scenarios anyway, so it's my default preference with anyone the majority of the time. Using the "I" statements is a really helpful suggestion and something I'll definitely take on board. I've recently been listening to a brilliant podcast about boundaries ("Beyond Bitchy" hosted by Vicki Tidwell Palmer - it's really helpful) and this is something that's come up on there a few times. It takes aggression out of the exchange but still allows you to express that the other person has mistreated you. It does feel a little bit like I'm downplaying things but then he is a very volatile person prone to fits of rage without any clue about how to healthily express emotion. It's why I won't even contemplate sending anything until a while after he attempts to contact me again, and even then I'm going to ensure that it's done once lockdown has greatly eased so that he has more distractions and is less like a caged lion. Chances are he'll just end up ranting to my brothers on the phone who in turn will just say "oh right" at the correct places, but regardless it makes sense for this to be sent at a time when emotions are less high across the board. It might not even be until next year, but I really want to feel prepared for it.
Thanks Jazzy. It's one of those things I think I have to journey through in order to gain some peace and clarity and it does really help to discuss it all and think it through first.
Quote from: Kizzie on May 26, 2020, 11:05:32 PMAnyway, Blues you have to do what feels right for you of course, we're just sharing what worked (or didn't) for us
And it's really helpful and reassuring to know that others relate and can share their experiences, thank you all.